F-22 Raptor & F-35 Lightning vs Su-57 Felon & J-20 Mighty Dragon: BVR Missile Fight | DCS
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- Опубликовано: 11 июл 2024
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0:00 Intro
1:41 Predictions
3:33 ROUND 1
12:30 ROUND 2
19:52 ROUND 3
28:56 ROUND 4
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#GRDogfight #DCSDogfight #F22 #Raptor #F35 #Lighting #Su57 #Felon #J20 #bvr #GR #DCSWorld #Dogfight #Aviation #AviationGaming #FlightSimulators #Military 
Игры
can you do a video about what would happen if Ukraine got their hands on f-16s? thanks!
ruclips.net/video/17Pikrp0QaY/видео.html
@@grimreapers we do a bit of trolling
It will make no difference.. they will be shot off the sky in no time
@@grimreapers thanks so much
@@stealthycatman5553 rootinforputin
I've always wondered what would happen if you'd have an awacs with long range missiles, imagine an e3 with aim120 D's or even meteors!.
they would need bigger ones, because they are slow aircraft, but otherwise only good for self-defence
100 miles (ish) is way too close to the danger zone for something big and fat like an AWACS. With the AIM-260 a missile truck might be more feasible.
A telegraph pole type of rocket would be much better and in combination witha a Patsir type for shorter ranges will do just fine.
With Pl-15 and Pl-21 also
@@Rover200Power and expensive.
I wish someone would model the YF-23 with the active stealth it was supposed to have
Ikr. If you think the raptor is good, that thing made it look like a 4.5th gen by comparison. And it's super thin frame would work well on low frequency radar, just like the B-2, and unlike the F-22 and f-35 irl
Yup, 6th gen fighter made in the 80s. Smooth underside also. Probably had better rear IR than any fighter to date including the raptor, also its tails are about the size of an f-35 wing alone and move on a full axis, and like i said its underside is very smooth its actually pretty manueverable from what the pilots who flew it said, and the rcs data both team had on both planes, so the people making the yf-23 knew what both could do, they were basically baffled when the f-22 won. All the raptor had over it at the time was like low speed manueverability and its weapon deployment system was good even with the f-22 vectoring at high speed they both manuevered about equally, but the thing is the yf-23 has more room, especially nowadays with electronics all smaller, the yf-23 would have tons of more room more missiles than the f-22, an updated version i saw drawn up of the yf-23, i think the designers made it, actually had it eventually having a weapons bay under the cockpit also, they had to reposition the nose gear, it could also carry much bigger weapons also because of its large center bay. And thats with the raptors deployment method, if they stuck with the stacked original concept that they thought was prone to jamming, i heard they could fit like 8 or some crazy amount in the center bay alone. So the yf-23 could drop a bigger variety of weapons also.
It would be unfair, lol
Top secret
gen 6 lurking...
Like to point out that the whole point of the wingman pairs goes back to those early days of combat, the lead is visually searching the sky forward for targets while the wingman is keeping an eye on their flanks and rear.
Back to post vietnam era loose combat spread I guess, line abreast or wingman slightly less forward, 2-5 mile separation to account for turn circles.
Thanks so much for the video! Loved it, and had even extra planes from the one request I had. Hope they fix thrust vectoring and the J-20 radar buff issues but overall it looked really fun !
At 25:00 that pass was so well controlled by both almost skweaky bum time! great shot right there!
At 7:09 caps radar actually picks one of them up but sadly cap doesn't notice. There's a bar visible in the left corner less than 10nm. Seemed to turn out fine though :D
yea i noticed too
@@leventekovacs5291 Yup its quite easy to pick up something on a video but even in virtual battle not so much
@@SatanTwister I mean, it's not that hard to notice a rectangle
@@leventekovacs5291 It is when you are busy looking in a completely different direction. It's easy to notice while watching the video because the only thing you are doing is watching the screen. When playing you are also doing a ton of other stuff and stuff like that can just slip by.
@@rubiconnn cap was using the radar to try to locate the enemy, so I don't think he was focusing on other things, then again we all have happy little accidents
Great match, Cap & Co.! Some brilliant flying by Killerbox & Matrix to avoid those missle strikes! A thoroughly enjoyable match, guys! ☺
thx
Not sure why the j20 is configured with the old pl12 and not the default pl15 that they in fact carry. Huge difference.
I totally agree..these fights are always one sided by leaving out China's modern missiles
YESS!!!! Lets goo another day another awesome GR battle!
Valued Viewer here, I must say. Nice vidja.
Cap is a fountain of information and enthusiasm. Thanks for what you and your squadron do!
Dude!! This was so fun to watch!
I read somewhere that the F-35 isn't a fighter aircraft, it's a strike aircraft, like the F-18. Dogfighting in an F-35 is a very expensive mistake to make.
grossly incorrect sir, the F-35 is an air dominance multirole fighter, it blends the F-16's turn rate and F-18's nose authority into a single airframe that actually exceeds both in performance, range, and payload. it also accelerates faster than both. the original argument that it couldnt dogfight was because of the dogfight against the test prototype f35 with heavy flight control restrictions and no stealth coating vs a combat coded f16. the entire point of that dogfight was so Lockheed could calibrate the FCS to the limit of the airframe. after the F35A had combat code, they have achieved a win loss of 20-1 in dogfights against F-16, F-18, F-15, Gripen E, Rafale, and Typhoons at operation Red Flag. the single loss was to a typhoon that was able to get behind the F35 while the F35 was in a fight with a F-16. in beyond visual range fights, the F-35 holds a 178-0 win loss in beyond visual range at red flag
Fat Amy ain’t fat at all she’s sexy Amy irl
@@saltyfloridaman7163Thanks for dispelling the myth about the F-35!
@@mauricehinton5889 there's a video you should watch called Hypohysterical's guide to the F-35. Check it out and tell me what you think. The guy did amazing work digging through all the hearsay to bring all the facts with lots of explanations and sources
If stealth wasn’t an issue and it got into a turning fight with real air superiority fighters like the f-22 su-57 su-35 it would struggle. It’s definitely capable. But it doesn’t have thrust vectoring. And isn’t as maneuverable as those aircraft. But it has stealth and a helmet mounted display with missiles that can get a lock at 90 degrees from the nose. So it doesn’t have to be as maneuverable. If you can turn your head to the and see the aircraft before your chin hits your shoulder then you’ll get a lock. American tech is just head and shoulders above Russia and China. I mean the su 27/35 and mig 29/35 fitted with American radar and the meteor missile would be extremely capable aircraft and give the f15 18 and 16 all sorts of trouble. They compare the mig 29 to the f16 but if they both had the same technology inside I believe the mig 29 would wipe the floor with the f16 and f18. The F-15 is probably the only aircraft other than the f-22 that America has that would be able to beat those Russian aircraft with the same radar/ missiles and what not. And I’m not so sure about the su-35 because the f-15 doesn’t have thrust vectoring. But is still an extremely maneuverable aircraft. But yeah go look at what the su-27 and su-35 can do maneuverability wise. It’s insane.
Probably my favorite DCS video I’ve ever watched
Dear Cap and GR Crew,
I just found a fascinating short documentary about the Luftwaffe TA-183, the jet fighter meant to replace the Me-262. And it so happens to look a LOT like the MiG-15.
So my question is: What If (using the MiG-15 as a stand-in) the Luftwaffe had the TA-183 as its main fighter against the Allied bombing raids of Berlin?
Play War Thunder and find out - it has all of those aircraft and you can even build your own custom battles, either solo or MP.
Dark Skies FTW. I support this idea!
Thanks Chase.
Have to say, you guys are impressive. I don't know how you see a small little gray dot in the midst of several blocks of gray buildings.
I love the BVR fights
The first kill was straight raptor style, u came outta nowhere from the side, and ate them up at close range lol.
RKO
Looks like whoever made that J-20 mod went full Wumamo with the radar!
I wonder if that's a legit tactic that stealth craft can use, launching a missile towards a tracking enemy missile, even if you can't get a lock, just on bulldog to act as a decoy
One factor to keep in mind, and this applies especially to stealth fighters: Size matters ...in reverse! All things being equal (stealth & drag values, durability & reliability, T/W ratios, avionics, weapons types, quality & numbers, radars, thrust vectoring, wing loading, control surface deflection angles, etc.), smaller aircraft will outmaneuver larger ones... This is even more true when one takes into account that larger aircraft are likely to have slightly larger radar cross sections & heat signatures combined with the ease of viewing a larger aircraft from further away. Lastly, the larger aircraft makes a bigger target, thus, more likely to be shot down. Some of these factors may seem minor, however, several small values make a big difference in the end... The caveat may be that smaller aircraft are not necessarily equal to larger ones; they cannot carry the same amt. of effective ordinance nor radar. Aircraft flight endurances/ranges and the availability of equivalently powerful smaller engines are other important questions...
I am loving this keep it up cap...
Wow. I didn't Know this game existed. Incredibly sic. Thanks for sharing this.
I could go for more j-20 vids
Coming right up!
With pl-15's of course 😷
Stealth is much easier to spot when actively maneuvering, an F-22 maneuvering at sea level is easier to spot than one cruising perfectly still at 20k feet, one thing to keep in mind (not sure if its modeled in DCS).
Not modeled
It’s a mod.
And why was the R-97 missile not implemented on the Su57? In 2018, this new air-to-air missile was accidentally opened on the Su57 simulator. Judging by the indicators, it surpasses the characteristics of all existing long-range missiles and fits into the internal compartments.
You mean the R-77 and no it doesn’t out class all other missiles AIM-120F is superior and the AIM-260 to be released soon will be the best Missile on the planet and is hypersonic
@@Mystical922 Not R77, R77-1 and not R37, designation R97, this is a different missile, its appearance is unknown, but it appeared in the training on the simulator.Its range is at least twice as good AIM120D. On the indicator, it was displayed in the internal compartment, therefore it has relatively small dimensions.
@@T-SUS are you talking about the R-77-1 that they fired into Ukraine crashed and then sent to the US for study there are photos of it planted into the ground
@UCXA9kPsQuciJBXmz1lklI8w R-77-1 not the export we know exactly where they are at in missile tech at least 2 SU-35’s crashed and sent to the US as well as their armament and avionics radar and etc. there is nothing secret the SU-57 has a optimistic RCS of .5 which is abysmal
@@Mystical922 Not quite true 1 Su35 was shot down by a Ukrainian SA-11 from an ambush, the 2nd Su35 was shot down by friendly fire from S300V4 and crashed in the controlled territory of Russia of Ukraine in Kherson
Note: When any stealth leave the cover of "ground clutter", radar advances allow the spike. (Which is probably "over" modeled into DCS)
I just stumbled on to the Grim Reapers a couple weeks ago and so much content! Love it. Suggestion for a mission: Could a modern day Japanese Defense stop an American Invasion of Iwo Jima? It was a tough nut in WWII and since they managed to sink our Nimitz class in a Final Countdown scenario. What would happen with today's tech. Keep up the good work boys. I'm glad there is enough talent to play DCS and I'll stick to Warthunder ( and I'm jealous of you doing so ) With regards: Paladin_Actual
It's been done I believe
@@Mjones8383 actually not. The video you refer is if US had modern Tech on the Iwo Jima battle. ruclips.net/video/735xH9LGD78/видео.html
Same bruh.
very good. loved this.
Very Smexy Jet n flying n seek n destroy from Cap n Scott - Killer n Matrix. Missile attraction is weird though. Wow 2 6 gen stealth dogfight is beautiful ( defies the idea of stealth totally ) - Fun rounds guys- Still think the J- 20 is Nº 1- Can't wait for the thrust vectoring.
That "Be aggressive. B. E. Aggressive" I haven't seen/heard that vid/song in ages.
Nice
they really out to fix the vectoring nozzles on the Su 57 XD looks hilarious when they go the wrong direction XD
lol yeh
Glad you on our side Cap!
I would like to see the Okinawa scenario with the AIM-260. It’s going into IOC this year.
As a digitally integrated pair of US 5th gen fighters, the 22/35 combo win 49 out of 50 times.
Now that all F35 turned out to contain Chinese components. That would make the F35 equivalent to Chinese junks.
@@4KSnSLifestyle Your comment is laughable.
@@joep5146 The fact that the US had to go with cheap Chinese magnet for its billion dollar fighter jet is even more laughable.
It was cobalt that was sourced from a Chinese manufacturer.
Bro I thought “Mighty Dragon” was a joke name or something, but that’s its actual name lol.
Good team work.
"punching out" . . . . that was actually pretty boss.😎😎
amazing Fight!!!
bear in mind the F-35 cannot carry AIM-9 internally nor is this ability foreseen. this is because sidewinder fires on the rail while slammer drops out first. however with 2 external AIM-9 there is a fair chance its radar cross section is still extremely low. I will say the J-20 hanging with the Raptor in a knife fight at low altitude is COMPLETE fiction, thrust vectoring or not. I don't know if he was in mil thrust or what
that LO paint absorbs some but not all radiation and converts to heat and the architecture only prevents direction from the front (both 35 and 22) but it’s not gonna do anything when you’re banking and have your large fuselage from above or below exposed to the radar at like a 90~75 degree angle. so the J-20 being able to pick up both on radar at that angle isn’t unrealistic just dangerous to play that game
correction after the last fight dunno if it would be able to pick up a tennis court of a top view of even a 35 or 22 from that distance but there is a chance
The aim going for the missile is normal if you can say it that way even in gs it saved him by going for the missile twice
Here's some additional context for any of your valued humanoid viewers interested in more information on these jets and missiles (primarily from the US point of view).
As you mentioned, it's widely believed that US aircraft, both the F-35 and F-22, have much more effective stealth characteristics, particularly head-on aspects. This is logical to me, given the size of the US annual defense budget, the amount specifically dedicated to the defense R&D sector, the military-industrial complex fighting for valuable military contracts (therefore spending a lot of private funds on R&D), the US leading radar development post-WWII, and the deployment of the first stealth aircraft in combat, followed by several others decades before competitors had their own developed. In addition, both the Su-57 and J-20 share certain characteristics common to US stealth features (the nose sections especially). In particular, the J-20 is believed by many sources to be a copy of both Russian and US designs in numerous areas. Given the Chinese focus on buying/stealing military and commercial business intellectual property, this makes sense to me.
Infrared Sensors, Electronic Countermeasures, Weapons Targeting, & a Potential IRST Counter
While we don't hear too much about Russian or Chinese upgrades to their jets, a fair amount is shared on the US side. I can confirm Supercap is correct, as the F-35 has an IRST sensor (and implemented in a stealthier configuration than its contemporaries), but as Cap also stated, it isn't modeled in DCS. It's worth noting here, that the F-22 has been spotted with two features being tested at the moment. First, there is an external pod that is rather small in size and attached to the F-22 with a "stealthy" pylon adapter under the wing. In fact, there is a pod on each side of the jet and the current speculation is that the F-22 may receive the long-awaited IRST sensor in one pod, and perhaps advanced electronic countermeasures in the other pod. In addition, the F-22, F-35, and even the long-retired F-117 have all been spotted and photographed in a very striking "mirror-like" external coating with the traditional dark gray or black finish entirely gone. The current thinking among analysts is that modern AESA radar and near-peer IADS systems are becoming more capable and catching up with modern stealth. Per my understanding, unlike DCS, stealth in the real world will allow the operator to potentially see and track small radar cross-sections out to quite a large distance, but the difficulty comes into play when the jet/fire-control system and missiles actually attempt to lock on, track and hit the stealth target. In addition, the mirror-finish is a sign that IRST sensors may be a larger threat than even advanced radar, at least against enemy jets in relatively close to medium range. This would explain why the F-22 may be willing to trade in some of its RCS in exchange for added IRST, electronic countermeasures, and an IRST deterrence.
Towed Decoys, but DCS Ignores These
The F-35 also has a defensive towed decoy fully integrated into the jet's stealthy design. A reported 25,000 AN ALE-50 towed decoy systems have been manufactured for the USAF/USN with the F-16 and F-18 two popular models which carry them. They are also being integrated into next-generation electronic countermeasure pods. None of these decoys are modeled in DCS unfortunately, but given the number manufactured, I believe it's a pretty significant defense that isn't taken into consideration. I honestly don't know what the situation is regarding decoys on Russian and Chinese aircraft, but I'd love to hear about it.
US Missile Assistance is Incoming
I'll be the first person to admit, that the US has fallen behind on the Fox 3 range given public sources. The AIM-120D is likely to have all of the features and capabilities (home-on-jam, highly effective sensors, quality programming) which results in a high probability of the missile hitting its designated target within range, but the AIM-120D is lacking the maximum range of other similar missiles in its class, particularly the Meteor, R-77, and PL-15. That said, the AIM-260 JATM has been successfully test-fired without any major reported hiccups in development over the past several years and was designed to fit into the weapons bays of both US stealth aircraft. The estimated deployment date for front-line fighters is just months away (end of 2022 or early 2023), and it will overtake AIM-120D production by quantity manufactured around 2026 per analyst estimates.
Part 2:
More USAF/USN Missiles Are Incoming
Much like the US being a bit lackadaisical when it came to deploying maneuverable hypersonic missiles, where the US had to play catch up but has now had numerous successful tests with approximately four different active programs expected to result in hypersonic missiles reaching operational capability, the US has also made a "comeback" effort with air-to-air missiles with the AIM-260 just being the first in a series of new missiles over the coming decade.
Peragine: One very interesting missile relatively close to becoming operational has been designed to be smaller in size on purpose, and it's known as the "Peragine." It's also a radar-homing missile with a pretty good range (likely similar to the current AIM-120D), but the key characteristic is the smaller size allowing the F-35 and F-22 to effectively carry 200% the number of air-to-air missiles than the current AIM-120 missile configurations allow.
Modular Advanced Missile: There's also the aptly named "Modular Advanced Missile" designed with a high level of modularity as the primary design characteristic, which makes a lot of sense given the various platforms and mission types faced by modern militaries of the world. If this missile were to obtain just half of the modularity options I list below, it could add unprecedented versatility only limited by the sheer level of logistics it would take to test and manage such a weapon system. The concept is to present multiple options to suit any given mission, using physical components specifically designed for commonality. For example, one could describe the AGM-114 Hellfire missile in broad terms as a semi-active laser homing, contact-fused, multi-purpose shaped-charge warhead, using a short-range solid-fuel rocket and standard flight-control surfaces. If one were to put in all of the R&D and testing work, a Hellfire missile could be configured at the airbase for the specific mission it was about to be used for using a set of components designed to fit together. Continuing to use this example, replacing the short-range rocket with a larger medium-range rocket would extend the range of the missile as it's fired by the Apache, but the added weight and physical size may result in less quantity being carried. That's the decision of the mission planners, particularly if they expect to encounter an enemy force of tanks that are being protected by a large number of infantry equipped with MANPADS. In that scenario, the Apache wouldn't have as much use for a laser-guided short-range anti-armor missile which would result in a huge amount of vulnerability. With the added range and a different seeker/guidance system installed, the Apache can now fire this modified Hellfire over the horizon and allow a combination of sensors to lock on after launch. When you begin thinking of the different types of missiles you can build using such modularity, you quickly find yourself eliminating all of the bespoke missile designs in use today. In fact, there aren't too many missions on the modern battlefield where one would actively prefer a short-range missile that needs to be actively guided into the target via laser while your helicopter is exposed.
Modular Advanced Missile Configuration Possibilities: Here's a list of potential options for each of the major component categories; a combination of these options can be used to describe virtually every missile in existence today, from the AIM-120D to Zircon hypersonic ground-attack missile. Targeting/sensor/guidance method (active/semi-active/passive radar, infrared, inertial, GPS, laser, magnetic, remote/command to line-of-sight, wire, LIDAR, and radiation), warhead-type (kinetic hit-to-kill, dart/rod penetrator, high-explosive, fragmentation, shaped explosive charge, dual-charge, thermobaric/fuel-air explosive, and use of submunitions), detonator/fuse type (on contact, proximity, remote, time delay, barometric, depth, and combination), maneuverability system (physical flight control surfaces, mechanical jet vanes, nozzle/engine throttling and gimbal control, active exhaust vane control, cold-gas/vernier thrusters, and thrust vectoring nozzles), special features/programming (offensive electronic warfare, generalized electronic countermeasures, ISR data-link, multi-target tracking, integrated optical feed, automated target identification/tracking/acquisition, identification friend or foe, fire-and-forget, safety self-destruct, target trajectory calculation, mid-course guidance change of target, lock-on after launch, home-on-jam, polarization/signal filtering, decoy resistance via discriminatory seeking, and chaff/flare countermeasure identification and resistance), and propulsion type (multiple solid/liquid fuel rocket stages, varying rocket lengths/diameters, ramjet/scramjet, pulse jet, and turbine).
Other Air-to-Air Missiles: There's not much public information on missiles currently being developed and tested, as the information on the AIM-260 isn't abundant and much of what is written above on the "Modular Advanced Missile" is simply speculation of what "could be." Two other missiles currently reported to be pretty far along in development is the Raytheon "Long-Range Engagement Weapon" for BVR, shown in pictures to be relatively large (perhaps too large for the F-22) which has two rocket stages visible; one can only assume this has a much better range than the AIM-120D, and it's possible one rocket gets it into "loft" mode while the second motor is triggered based on the most efficient calculated time per launch parameters of the target, and could be an extra booster engine towards the last phase of guidance in order to ensure an extremely fast missile is being flown towards the enemy aircraft. This would make the missile hard to avoid due to the high-speed terminal phase and also more difficult to defend as the targeted aircraft may not know if it's a traditional one-stage missile that can be out-ranged based on live flight data, or if it's this new two-stage missile that may appear to be out of range or losing energy, only to have the second stage fire and instantly become a much greater threat.
Stealth is a combination of shape, heat reduction, and Radar absorption materials. China and Russia have so far only managed (poorly I might add) to copy the shape, they can't reproduce the Radar absorption materials used in US planes. It is why the RCS of a F-22 is .0001 m2 while a J20 is .1 m2 and the SU-57 is 1.2 m2... Funny enough the F-18 super hornet flying clean (clean means no external weapons or tanks or anything) has a RCS of 1.0 m2 so Russia's "Stealth" fighter really isn't......
Thanks Jamison!
@@ShionWinkler OK here we go again with the bs the su 57 has an rcs between 0.1-1m2 that was the t-50 with exposed rivets no radar blockers added and older generation engine without stealth nozzles
Now the production units has no exposed rivets and have radar blockers And 5th gen engine izdeliye 30
So it's much stealthier than 0.1-1m2 now
Iam not saying its stealthier than f35 or f22
But it has a decent rcs
And pls stop the bs comparing it with super hornet
Too bad Russia has like 2.5 su57s
Cap, I have a senario for you. What could beat the us navy Fast carrier force in ww2 ( and what could possibly beat a modern equivalent if you dare). For reference that is around 17 carriers, 6 battleships, 13 cruisers, 58 destroyers, and a total of around 1100 aircraft. Give or take
Cap had problems taking on the Imperial Japanese Navy World War II with a modern US Carrier Group , 4 times I think. Pearl Harbor.
True, but they have also done the battle of midway recently which didn’t have as many problems. On top of that, he could do an individual carrier group from the time that represents a portion of the whole.
@@willwozniak2826 Didn't the tactics of the modern CSG in that video have major issues?
I would love to but we do not have a server capable of hosting that many planes :( We top out at around 200 modern planes or 300-400 wwII.
Really enjoyed this one, I feel like if you get the J-20 mod fixed you should do this again
F22: you cat defeat me
J20: cheats activated
My understanding of stealth is that you are only invisible when you fly flat and level. As soon as you pull a maneuver you expose your top or bottom you lose the small cross section.
a rotating soundwave guided rocket fed gatling turrent on a rooftop would be rad
cool
Im not sure if RCS directionality is modelled in DCS, stealth fighters are typically only stealthy from the front and sometimes from the rear. They are quite visible if scanned from the side and top/bottom.
i was shaking my head when he went 0/0 on the radar.. lol If your bottom range is already at zero, its already scanning the ground. When you placed them both on zero, youre pretty much not scanning anything.
Weird that this New Zelander is like the best pilot in the world. Out of curiosity, is the EMP missile either too enormous for an airframe or too secret to factor in air combat?
the kiwis use to cause havoc in there a4s back in the day apparently they were giving the Americans in there f16s and Australians in there f18s a hard time and beating them in war games, maybe kiwis are all just maverick's
The missile chasing the missile was actually cool as hell
Let's hope these jets never meet in real life
Well the 57 isn’t stealthy and there are like 4 of em the j20 with it’s canards is a joke too
They'd probably fly right by each other lol
I can't wait for that day...
So I’ve watched a ton of your videos and I’ve always wondered why you started off each video with “hello valley viewers.” What valley? What makes him think I live there? So on this one I finally heard “hello valued viewers” 😂
We call the viewers "Valued Viewers" because they are valued to us.
This has always been a situation I wanted to see, that J-20 needs it's radar fixed.
Crazy how small the f-35 is
but she is fat!
Yeah they should have made the aircraft carrier one twin engine with larger wings that fold. Give it more power to intercept incoming cruise missiles and aircraft. With the larger wings giving it better fighter capabilities. Cause a major role of the j20 is to use its frontal stealth to get in close enough to get shots off on an aircraft carrier. And the f35c would struggle in a dogfight vs a j20 cause it’s not an air superiority fighter. Sure aircraft carriers have a lot more protecting it than just f35cs but I can’t help but think about a j20 with a hypersonic missile on it and getting it off close enough the defenses don’t have much time to react.
@@forfun6273 I’ve seen it gamed where j20s primarily go after AWACs
It’s a great day!
Holy shit what an entertaining video!!! HUGE kudos to the F-22 pilot (Killer ?) who successfully won the dogfight against the J-20, what an incredible display of flying, he obviously knows his plane. Well done boys, from a long time subscriber & fan here in Toronto Ontario Canada!!
22:20 just very little overmoddled
My gun was not working! Oh you have none! 🤣
That was funny 😄
After watching the revised Okinawa battle, I think the AIM120's seem to be broken.
Those are d’s
(Stupid) technical question: isn't the radar cross section dependent on the orientation angle of the target respective of the searching aircraft? Say, if two planes engage head-on, the RCS will be minimal, but if my target gives me its upper or lower side to view, would that not DRAMATICALLY increase its RCS? Noob question, I know...
Depends on the design it’s all very technical US planes try and minimize RCS from all angles front is best and angles are worse but J-20 and SU-57 may only have frontal stealth while other angles it has radar spikes. NGAD for the US is supposed to counter 3 issues Low Freq. radar by designing stealth further into the plane, low RCS from angles while being a drone mothership to be the next generation air supremacy platform
Yes, RCS can vary a huge amount depending on the aspect of the target relative to the radar. Designing stealth aircraft or anything with RCS-reduction features is done in a way to get the returns as low as possible at those angles where it can deliver the biggest benefit such as in a head-on engagement. Certain features like engine fan blades also create very strong radar returns so if you look at any modern aircraft you'll see intakes that are designed to hide the fan blades as much as possible by using features like S-shaped ducts.
Not a dumb question at all a very good one in fact yes it will vary but the degree of which will be dependent on how they designed it as others have said
In game they are most detectable from front, then side, then rear. In real life a stealth plane would be opposite to that probably. DCS only very roughly models stealth detection.
Tbh, i wanted to see a f22 vs f35 bvr fight aswel especially since it was a 2v2
I know it probably won't happen irl
But just knowing how close it could get
Now with this information in mind we know now we can fool enemy missiles by launching your own.
I wonder if that works in real life... test please USAF
F-35 and j-20 have eots and das. Su-57 has irst and dirccm.
The F-35 also has an EW suite comparable to the EA-18G growler built-in, a towed radar decoy that gives any radar missiles that does spot it a 50/50 chance to hit the decoy instead. LPI AESA radar isn't moddled at all, just the range of the radars. The F-35 and F-22 both have advanced data link and at least the F-35 (but possibly also F-22) would be able to guide missiles entirely by datalink provided another aircraft gives TWS updates. Both these aircraft have synthetic aperture ground radar that they can run at the same time as Air-air modes and all with advanced data processing happening in real time so I somehow get the feeling notching isn't very effective against the US' radars either. And the Chinese radar probably isn't far behind, but the Russian one almost certainly is by a significant margin.
F22 is getting IRST too with the new package.
@@d.thieud.1056 remember the first serial production of SU57 is improved a lot, but still it needs to improve it. The RCS of Serial production SU 57 is around 0.01m2 ( as the size of the human fist) it slightly improved/reduced the RCS by applying 30% RAM coating on it, but still it has not as stealthy as the F22 and F35 which has the RCS around 0.0001m2 and 0.005m2, but some unique features are there in SU57 that F22 and F35 doesn't have it such as 2 DIRCM aka Directional infrared countermeasures, OLS 50M aka IRST and 6 radar which has 2 types of radar one is 3x L band radar and another one is 3x X band radar making it higher electronic frequency jammer making stronger jamming effects than the F22, but still F22 has advanced electronic warfare making it slightly advantage for F22. The SU 57 has S duct inlet intake with radar blockers with boundaries extractor layers on it. The boundary extractor layer has a role is that it can remotely or manually blocks the fan blade of the SU 57 intake and allows the air passage to go through the intake. The SU57 has radio frequency jamming, improved multiple Data link system and even that it has satellite communication link it making better advantage for SU 57. But still it needs to improve a lot.
@@d.thieud.1056 The Russians actually have good AESA radars, going back more than a decade iirc, the problem is they can't actually afford to put them on planes. Iirc the Su57 actually does use a pretty decent radar, but it's basically the only Russian plane that does and this is probably part of the reason it's being produced in very small quantities.
@@92HazelMocha allegedly has good radar but nobody wants to buy it they may resort to selling to Vietnam and such for any foreign buyers after Turkey and India either bailed or said no to the project for domestic aircraft
Kinda surprised noones come out with a mod for dcs that adds raytracing, not for graphics but using it to allow relatively realistic stealth modeling.
Interesting.
Isn't the stealth of the 22 and 35 the only verifiable information available?
I don't understand the point of the other two.
Russian and Chinese fan boys love to over hype
You cant proove that
The stealth of the F-35 and 22 is projected by analysts its actual RCS is classified
@@Mystical922 Correct, but the F22 and 35 are the only fighters of the four to see any signigicant air time in conflict. The other two havent been tested, let alone one was called out by India as not being stealth. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I haven't see any claims about the 22 and 35's stealth, beyond their superiority.
@@urscreamin4it yeah the other 2 are trash the US aircraft have been told to be better than advertised
Not even sure I should give out my method of shooting down a Stealth aircraft at next to nothing in costs. Ready? High fidelity microphone networks. Each mic would placed 3 miles apart on a massive grid linked together painting a picture of exactly who is where at what speed they are traveling. Simple
Ground based radar can already see the size/speed of stealth craft outside maybe the b2 just fine it's doing it fast enough and accurately enough to get a lock/firing solution is the difficult part.
Be Iike tring to sneak past Helen Keller.
You can’t get a lock on them tho
This is a flawed exercise since the 57 is not equipped with a 15year old TomTom tapped to the instrument cluster!
And it’s actually able to fly lol
Cap, you can scrub the timeline by pressing middle mouse button
Use long wave radar to see them the. Send your 5th gens to intercept while giving updates to walk yours onto the incoming 5th Gen fighters
Mighty Dragon reminds me of the mig 31 firefox
yup
Quick scenario for you Cap, many years back after Russia shot down that passenger flight over its territory Putin and the Australian PM at the time were blustering and such, at one point Putin sent one of his Kirov's into Australian waters and the Australian navy responded by sending two Frigates to shadow it. My question is if the frigates felt the need and launched all 16 Harpoons at the Kirov at once, could it have stopped them all? If it could, then how many would it take? Could the combined force of 8 frigates and 3 destroyers of Australia launching a combined 88 Harpoons do it?
With what happened to the Moskva I have no doubt the international Florida men could have blasted him
Thanks Mr Small!
actually it was Varyag (Pacific Fleet Flagship) sister ship to the departed Moskva but with upgraded radars and systems....4 ships cruiser, DDG, Tanker...........and a tug
The Hobart Class destroyers are a lot better than the ships the Russians sent, the Anzacs may have trouble but we know 3 Anzacs were able to stop the incoming fire from an entire US carrier force from exercises in 2017.
When low on the ground and launching missiles, couldn't you go inverted for a moment, launch it, and then go back from inverted?
Cap @ almost exactly 31mins, you commented that the Raptor needs to fire missiles @ more elevation....but what if you go inverted @ the low level? 🤔🤨🧐 I'm sure that it would work, I don't know for Certain, but seems like a good tactic. A throw back to the old Warbirds! Another tactic is the stick in your gut and hard rudder, then stick forward and neutralize. You should probably watch 'The History Channel 's Dogfights series, it has interviews and graphics for the Maneuvers and tactics that they utilized to defeat the Nazis and the Japanese empire during World War 2. I think that the G.R. squadron would benefit from the series! And in this current video, slippery WWII tactics could have made a difference....? I guess, after training, that you'll have to give it go again! 😉👍🤙🖖🤞🍻
The mechanical radars in game are gyro-stabilized, so they automatically stay "the right way up". At least to an extend.
the F22 ejects the missile from the bay to clear the plane before ignition....I have seen several different Ytubers suffer damage/crash from being nap of the earth when launching!! The missile drops then detonates when it hits the ground and the debris frags the 22.........!
tip top
Fun
Where can I find a working J-20 Chinese Aircraft Mod. I can't get my copy to work. The aircraft does not appear on the list after install. I have the others (F-22A, F-35, Su-57) the only mod on this list that give me trouble is the J-20. Any suggestion from anyone?
There are research papers you can find online on what different the radar cross-sections are of aircraft based on their shape. Though if you're curious like me, its definitely worth it.
Love the sportsmanship between everyone. We know that the F-22 doesn’t thrust vectoring and the J-20 radar being 7th Gen still playing it out without crying about things. Well done fellas, I hope even after Brandon’s idiocy we will always be bonded together in war.
J20 7th gen lol.. they still are using 4th gen aircraft engines. And the stealth is garbage compared to the f22 and f35. It’s closer to a full square meter. Same with su57
@@forfun6273 it was sarcasm
@@ChristoFreeze I had a feeling. But I’ve seen many propaganda videos where they call the f22 and 35 4.5 gen and the j-20 5th or 6th gen. Probably why you said it. But ya never know with these commies. Sad thing is even the French are pushing propaganda that the Raphael is better than the f-22 and f-35.. lol crazy world we live in. I apologize though.
@@forfun6273 all good brother, I’ve seen them and the clickbait avengers Quinn Jet being the NGAD 6th Gen invisible with 7 drone projectors and 12g capabilities 😂 although I think we will see some amazing upgrades to an unmanned F-22 and a new bomber by 2024. Take care
J-20 has a glorious radar of the people, it cannot be defeated!
Is DRMF programed into this game? False radar signatures are a great tactic for drawing enemy stealth fighters into visual range during ambush interdiction.
Interesting.... so ,depending on awacs, stealth kind of cancels itself out in 5th gen v 5th gen and you'll end up in a knife fight?
Probably not irl. Radar and RCS are very poorly modeled in DCS. This can be very easily seen in form of radar notching; a tactic that works well agaisnt old pulse doppler radars, but largely ineffective agaisnt PESA and AESA radars. In DCS every radar is essentially treated as an old pulse doppler radar. Another thing is that ranges are largely truncated in DCS, especially in user made mods. The Meteor for example has a larger effective range (not even max range) than aircraft can even see eachother in game.
A good way to look at it is fox 3 guidance; ARH missiles have dramatically weaker radars than their launching aircraft, but the advent of stealth aircraft has not led to a change in missile designs. This means that it's still expected that an aim120 can see a J20 at its pitbull range and a PL12 can see an F35 at its pitbull range. Which implies both aircraft can see eatchother at much further ranges.
@@92HazelMocha I see you point, But then, pitbull range IS knife fight range, at least to me. After all WWI knife fight range was under 100 yards, WWII knife fight was about 200 yards, Vietnam, about 1000 yards. I think you see what I'm getting at. The knives have just gotten longer blades.
@@FelixstoweFoamForge The ranges are definitely shorter than non-stealth aircraft would engage at, but 20-30nm is not what I would consider knife fighting range hahaha
@@92HazelMocha Lol, depends on the knife buddy.
@@92HazelMocha more a sword fight
Nice game guys!
the f35 can have a gun, but usually on a gunpod or the f35A which has an internal gun. might just be something with the mod, idk.
I wonder about the J20 picking them up when high, when a plane radar looks down it might be able to pick up the F22 radar dome since those are usually angled UP to be stealthy when looked at straight but if you are at the right angle and you hit it perpendicular it would be totally visible?
Yep. And you can pick canopy because it's metallized.
But that's not modelled in dcs
@@user-qn3xu5ee3t The F-22 and F-35's canopy is coated with an anti radiation coating, that is what makes them look gold in color, the canopy reflects zero radiation, so no you can't pick up the canopy. Also the J20 is stealthy when looked at straight, but no other angle, the F-22 and F-35 are stealthy regardless of the angle. Head on the F-22 has a RCS of .0001 m2 and from the sides, top and bottom it is .00015 m2, and from the rear they are .0002 m2.
No, the F-22 is designed to be extremely stealthy regardless of angle, and its Radar is a variable frequency system so enemy sensors cannot tell if they are being scanned or from where. Both the F-22 and F-35 can turn there radars on full power and never get detected.
Almost certain J-20 radar is game is over-powered.
@@grimreapers DCS isn't super accurate when it comes to stealth anyway. nor. can it be. That's just me rationalizing the "bug".
F35 only having 4 interior pylons is kinda bs
it's designed to sneak around and feed targets to a missle truck like the F-15EX via datalink, keeps the plane small, look at its size compared to the Raptor
@@shmevan_ I mean not really though. It was designed to replace the f-15, A-10, f-18 awacs and f-16. The logic was use B2s escorted by F-22s and a F-35A as quarterback. To take out enemies early warning radars and major air bases/ Sam sights. Then once there’s air superiority you use f-35s external pylons as a strike vehicle for bombing and ground support roles while being escorted by the f-22 but yeah they stopped making the F-22. And the F-35 is quite expensive so I assume their plan as of now is to do the same scenario in the beginning to take out early warning and obtain air superiority but then play it safe with the f-35s and keep them in stealth mode as an escort for the f-15. Along with the f-22s as escorts in heavier contested airspace. Almost like they’re trying to avoid loses and put minimal flight time on the f-22s and F-35s. But yeah at first they wanted the F-35 to be a jack of all trades.
The *mythical* SU57…
Yes: Very rare in nature and overhyped.
why so negative
@@ferrous3262 American teens 🙈
@@ferrous3262 because it’s trash
@@Utubesuperstar and how did u come to the conclusion that the su 57 is trash
Do you have any simulations of the F23 Black Widow?
Noice this was my comment!
Yes it was.
.05 is the f35s radar cross section. F22 has .002 the j20 and su57 are closer to 1 square meter.
The f22 can use its radar without spiking another aircraft in real life...
They said so at the start yea. Not just the raptor, but the F-35 too. Advanced AESA radars can make it very hard to get ELINT data from them, presumably the J-20 has this tech too
Low probability of detection, low probability of interception.
Basically since you are using AESA, you can switch radar frequency so quickly that enemy’s radar warning receiver will think you are background radar noise, since it cannot recognize a consistent pattern that identifies the emission as an artificial radar wave.
I’m fairly certain the J-20 and a lot of the AESA naval radars can do the same.
@@d.thieud.1056 the j20 doesnt have that, their aesa tech is still decades behind america's russia is also far behind. its why chinese scrambled ships to the F35 crash site in the ocean to attempt to recover the jet before the us navy did, but they failed
@@thomaszhang3101 actually no, the F-35A is currently the only fighter aircraft in the world that has that capability, the F22 lacks that ability but is supposed to receive upgrades to helmet tracking for the aim 9x and the newest most capable version of the F-35s radar
@@saltyfloridaman7163 Really? That’s kind of interesting to think about, since I remember watching US animations about F-22 downing Flankers without the pilots even noticing anything coming at them, implying LPD radar lock and missile guidance.
Seriously, why would the F-22 even bother will an expensive AESA instead of, say a highly individualized PESA, which can achieve similar purpose save for LPD but for a much cheaper cost?
When you fight with these planes on the deck you take away everything that makes them the best fighters in existence. Take it up to at least 10k so we get to see who is best in all 3 levels of fighting as they negotiate for position falling to the deck. In this scenario a Viper wins 100 of 100 times against everything.
I wonder if we could get so good at stealth that we bloody stealth missiles into obsolesence and are forced to bring guns back into the spotlight as the main weapon of fighter pilots in air combat again.
Not sure I trust DCS in this regard. It underestimates the J20's RCS and overestimates its radar capabilities. It also underestimates the capabilities of the wests AESA radar.
All planes in this vids are mods an subject to the creators bias, and DCS has never been made with stealth physics in mind so the modest use janky work around.
Are some parts of the video poorly rendered or is my GPU hitting retirement ? ( @31:00 or @24:13 )
Hello valued creator! Perhaps a naive question, but is there any degree of independent verification of claimed figures (radar cross-section, performance etc)?
Seems to me that there might by a teeny tiny incentive to not be truthful…
The F-35 can currently carry 4 AIM-120's not 2. A new internal ejector rack by Lockheed that was just released ups the F-35A & C can carry the same internal loadout as the F-22.