The fact that it's even possible for the number 1 streaming platform in the world, which is owned by one of the largest companies in the world, to be potentially shut down, in an era where live-streaming is such a huge part of online media (to the extent that it has created dozens/hundreds of millionaires and mainstream celebrities) is pretty insane to me. The music industry could literally kill an entire media landscape
That's why it baffled me that people thought they would take a chance on it anyways over the years. I've been sitting back thinking "...hm..alright...if you think nothing will happen lol...go for it...play that song man...".
@YaboiShaun no one relies on the internet but everyone seeks some form of entertainment. Everyone is just up in arms that one form of entertainment (music industry) can shut down another form of entertainment (livestreaming) if you dont use copyrighted content that has legal restrictions you will have no problem getting through this.
@YaboiShaun you're assuming that everyone is capable of doing the things that they're observing on social media. That's ableist and classist all at the same time. And I personally use social media to keep in easy contact with my international friends around the world.
@YaboiShaun Its not a connection. Its entertainment. I dont watch TV, or read the magazine, but I do watch twitch and scroll through twitter occasionally. How is that so hard for some people to understand? Entertainment isn't a new concept, and of course you had to throw in the racism towards Americans in there for good measure. People like you bore me.
Plot twist : Twitch uploads all of their vods on youtube as private vods & wait for the YT content ID system to track down the clips with copyrighted content
The first 22 minutes of this, all I could think is that Lud is vastly overestimating the economic and cultural significance of Twitch. It's gotta be hard to recognize that the platform is insignificant when you have a literal football stadium of viewers on every stream, and you're not even top 5 at any given hour. Humans are so bad at judging scale by orders of magnitude in our heads.
Ya he def is. Also considering that twitch is literally notoriously bad at doing these things. Hell they've had and known about this 4+ yrs and they still havent implemented some of the most basic and easiest things to do. Like privating vods/clips. Its either delete them all or keep all of them up
@@mrclean465 coal is like one the most valuable industries, so idk probs not the best example. Also thats from like 200 some odd yrs of legislation that evolved to get to that point. You really think these people who are in charge of making laws understand what the internet is... let alone twitch
Yeah I think the crazy amount of money they make from a very specific group of people gives them this disconnected sense of reality. Like getting 50-100k viewers is a huge deal on twitch, but those same numbers on RUclips or cable TV are amateur.
@@mrclean465 coal is a vital resource for the majority of global infrastructure, not some niche little video game platform with an audience of children.You know that weird shit called electricity that powers your tiktok and pornhub device? You can thank coal for a large percentage of that.
@@nickuva6508 well tbf its also a different audience thing. RUclips is a vod so u can continue to gain views as soon as u upload.. in a day from now, a week, even years later. Also an average most vids are 6-12 mins long, you can watch one from one youtuber then watch a completely different video from a different youtuber. Twitch is a live service where you have to actively watch one guy for hours and you cant really support more than one person the same way like it is on youtube. Your actively competing against every other streamer on the site for viewers. So 50-100k concurrent viewers is actually quite impressive to do. But all that being said ya i dont think he understands the legalities and what what these people who have the power to change shit can really do
If something is not copyrighted right now, they should not be able to retroactively copyright strike it, that would be like if a house is build in the 1980's then new regulations come in now and you have to change your house to the new regulations without planning to renovate the house. (Ofc you have to follow the new regulations if you do something on your house after the new regulations) just like you would not use the newly copyrighted song after it has been copyrighted.
Unfortunately this is not how copyright works and your house example doesn't apply. A platform not being able to implement a content ID system like RUclips doesn't make using an unlicensed song legal. It's more like building your house in 1980 was already against the regulations, just there was no way to test it until now. The rules didn't change. While it's complete BS in my books aswell, e.g. I think using music in the background mixed with other sounds like talking should be treated differently than ripping/straight up reuploading music. But acting like DMCA didn't exist until 2 days ago is just foolish in the first place, and by current law they have no right to complain. Again, I dislike the system and it needs overhaul, but until now every one making money by streaming HAD to know it wouldn't go on like this forever.
@@de_vast1142 yeah exactly. Before a couple years ago, Twitch was just operating against the rules. The problem is they became too big and now they have to follow the rules. At least RUclips has a proper system in place for this stuff, even if it's not perfect. Twitch just has to go full power on any issue because they don't have a system in place agreed with the record labels and publishers.
Every game you play on twitch is grounds for infringement, every brand, logo, design, poster, label, shirt, hat you wear or have in your webcam is grounds for infringement. So, as what Devin said. How far do you want to go with this?
The difference is that all these things you listed understand free marketing and having a symbiotic relationship with creators and studios/brands etc. Music industry does not care because they have federal laws that HEAVILY weigh in their direction. Like Devin said "RUclips goes to the far extreme, they'll strike you for whistling a tune in a video". Imagine how much money RUclips/Google have and they still air on the side of caution when it comes to music and DMCA strikes. The Music Industry runs off the mantra of "fuck you, pay me".
The thing with games is that companies understand that having popular content creators playing their games gives them an incredible amount of public attention, which then further increases the amount of people who buy their games exponentially. It's why they pay people to play their games early (and sometimes pay for good reviews :/) Clothing companies tend to just not give a shit, this isn't worth their time and cases about it get rejected a lot. Most of the time they make deals with people to shill their clothes, which is fair honestly. Music companies just want to make the most money as possible and if a creator's channel needs to get deleted to do so, it'll be deleted. Fighting them is essentially like going into a gunfight with a knife. You got a chance to win, but it ain't great.
I'm going to make up a number and say maybe about half the games we play include a streaming clause in their EULA that allows us to stream without infringing on copyrights, the other half also understand the symbiotic relationship with streaming and advertising their game so they don't enforce infringement, and only a handful of games or companies actually enforce copyright and prevent people from streaming their game. Yep, those last ones are typically dead games.
Sir, found you on a recommendation from another YT fav of mine, and respect! I had this conversation with half a dozen streamers I support (with more than donations) circa Feb 2020, and man, this exact flavor of denial is what I got hit with. Hats off to you for really going the whole distance to try and explain this to someone. Like, Sub, Respect!
38:54 - What Ludwig says here is true but also the reason Twitch is in this predicament as we speak. For too long Twitch has kept a blind eye to copyrighted content and it has created a culture on Twitch where people grow and practically build their following from mixing their original concepts with material they don't own and id argue for some creators growth has come from using a higher ratio of copyrighted content over original ideas. RUclips has done the opposite and here creators know the copyright law alot better and while some will try flirt with the rules of DMCA, the content ID system does a good enough job of deterring the same live streaming content culture which thrives on Twitch. 53:48 - Ludwig mirrors the above point of view right here.
I think a better way to explain it to Ludwig would have been using his Twitch chat as an analogy. If someone in his chat was just spamming the N word, he would still ban them despite them being drowned out by 10,000 other people. Him banning that one guy is going to have no measurable impact on the speed/flow of chat, but it would still remove a stain from his community, and in this case Twitch is a stain on Amazons record. Even if Twitch made x10 what its losing it would mean nothing to a company the size of Amazon, so when you factor in the fact that it's literally losing them money there's no way in fuck they should keep it.
Ludwig sounds soo naive thinking that they will not mass ban a bunch of streamers, and that he can switch to another streaming site and expect the same kind of viewership. Sadly this is legal action, and not just part of Twitch ToS. If the record companies want users banned for having copywriter content in streamers old vods, they will start holding twitch accountable for it, and they will have no choice but to start banning people. Thinking he is safe is just not a gamble I would take if I was in his position.
Yeah but he sees that he has RUclips to fall back onto if twitch was to ban him, and the exposure he would get from the ban news would make his viewership pop off on whatever platform he would go to, just look at the Doc. He also feels that there are other ways for twitch to solve the problem without flat out banning their top streamers.
@@ryantucker6236 that's IF twitch feels like actually doing something that helps their creators. Also Ludwig is speaking from a very selfish stance if what you say is true about him falling back on his youtube.
When Ludwig say "boomers just don't understand blah blah(sry can't remember the whole quote)" and Devin comes back with "Yea but these Boomers write the laws" really did show how naive he is. This mentality of "if you're over X age you don't understand me or the current times" is extremely idiotic. Who made these platforms? "Boomers", this also brushes aside that there are 20/30/40 something year olds who are making these rules/laws. Saying someone is a boomer is a really terrible argument cause the term has evolved from what an actual Boomer is to "oh I'm 18, you're 24 fuckin boomer" lol. Like I'm fuckin 28 and have been called a boomer by kids a lot. I laugh cause I'm speaking a truth and you can't handle it so you deny it. That's pretty much what I got from Ludwig.
Devin, isn't it weird that big companies that claim DMCAs aren't taking the content creator playing their shit or what ever as free ads or marketing? Isn't it super profitable that a big content creator showcasing songs or promoting shows that they like profitable? I can't count the number of time I've discovered new artists and search for them right away after watching a stream
I found “no stop” from foster people due to devin dance clip😅 is crazy how boomer the music industry is. I see a song played and I liked it I will find it on Spotify or buy it
@@Drahko12 music business andy here, Short: Not really. Long story: A casual listener is worth actually nothing. A listener on average listens to a song 2-3 times. 1000 people finding a song is worth about 2-5 dollars. after getting this about 50 times. they might sell 1 piece of merch at a profit margin of 20-50 usd. You as singular person are actually worth nothing to a musician. Clout therefore means little to nothing unless it's a ridiculous amt total at once. In music (as well as other content creation) the top 10% makes 90% of the money. so unless this clout is pushing people into the top 10% it actually doesnt matter in any significant way with very very few nishe cases where it isnt like that. often in communities like the furry community, vtuber, anything pretty simpy really.
This is what I keep saying. Like twitch does a lot for games. Such as among us and whatnot but does a lot for music and such too. All of the net does. I mean hell that one Fleetwood Mac song from 1977 hit a top chart spot in 2020 cuz of viral internet tiktok means. I find so much music and whatnot via streams its like insane to think its anything but free publicity. Its not even like these streams most the time are rip offs. I get flat out ripping it off but this isn't the case
Devin, I hear ya on the music industry take. The hammer will drop hard. YT and FB are doing everything in their power to take market share, remember that, and they already have systems in place for copyright. With Microsoft potentially working closer with FB now after the merger, Twitch is bound to feel the burn of their blunders while the other companies try to take their piece. Streams get silenced pretty damn quick and content is shadow banned when flagged on FB. YT streams can be taken down mid stream and removed from the platform, same with regular videos, along with perm strikes if monetized. Meanwhile on Twitch, streamers are playing entire albums and making money while copyrighted music is filling the dead air in their streams. Can't tell me Twitch creators didn't see this day coming.. Pro athletes, celebrities and now politicians are streaming. The market is opening up now, the taboo of nerds gaming is dying, and the dinosaurs on Twitch that think copyright doesn't exist are about to be evicted to make room for the new wave of broadcasters coming in from other industries. People are home on their devices now more than ever, watching online content. From the major company players involved, the time is now to make these changes so that they can profit as well.
@@LisboaDrive In China and S Korea it's a cool thing to game. Some esports are looked upon like real sports. The point was that the rest of the world is starting to catch up. With that, the numbers go up, the viewers, the acceptance. There's money to be made and the companies losing out on that money that's rightfully owed to them are coming for that money now that the taboo of gaming being for nerds is diminishing. Just a side point to the main one. Piracy can very well bring down Twitch and it's non-compliant creators.
Devin is right about high-level executives. They are just looking at a spreadsheet and making a decision based on that. It's not personal at all, it's just business. But the other guy is also right about streamers being driven by ego and just saying "screw them" if twitch bans them. Plenty of streamers and few of them are good businessmen.
this is the shit. thanks devin for posting this phenomenal piece of art. your analogy with the field air bomb and ludwigs answer to that cracked me up so hard :'D keep up the great work!
On the Scuffed Podcast, the guests (including Devin Nash) also discussed this process of identifying potentially DMCA-able content using RUclips's Content ID system: Hypothetically, a streamer could download all their VODs, upload them all (privately) to RUclips, wait for the Content ID system to identify copyrightable content, and proceed to delete/perhaps modify those identified VODs. The issue they explained with this is that even the RUclips Content ID system is flawed and that content with copyrightable content will not _always_ be identified for the creator, yet still be taken down due to strikes. Devin explained that while the RUclips system is the *best* system they have (especially in comparison to Twitch's system, Audible Magic) to automatically identify copyrightable content, it is not completely reliable and that Twitch streamers can still be subject to DMCAs and therefore have their content continually deleted without notice (and obviously, if/when they have three DMCA strikes they'll be taken off the platform) - which is bloody insane. Devin also brought up streamers, particularly DansGaming, who have VODs from _eleven_ years ago, who have a significant impact and sentiment within the Twitch community. The absolute misery that must come from streamers having to delete years (even decades) of their content is shocking. I will say, I am thoroughly impressed by xQcow's approach: he asked his fans to post their favourite clips onto his community's discord server, his Mods would compile them together in a "Highlights"-esque montage, and they would be uploaded to RUclips as an archive. (xQcow expressed he is not the sentimental kind; that the documentation of some of his greatest moments is not important to him as he can remember and recall memorable times - but nonetheless, mad respect to all streamers on the bloody incredible platform). I'll also mention that Kandyland talked about how Twitch were once considering a way for music and voice to be recorded on a different line so that streamers could simply remove music from their uploaded VODs (5Head) but fuck-all happened with that, evidently. TrainwrecksTV Pepega brought up a point about this being a good time for Twitch streamers and creator to "strike" against Twitch with the intention for creator to demand Twitch to create a better content ID system, or perhaps give streamers the ability to unlist their VODs, much like RUclips - which, as far as I know, isn't very convoluted to enable - etc... who knows? This sounded like COVID-19 for VODs.... maybe the plague Sadge Oh yeah, 40:01 LULW
I've often wondered why Amazon would put the efforts into Twitch (no offense intended) with a looming liability such as DMCA laws. It's kind of hard to see the return being a major player for Amazon.
Also I think I'll just not even stream with any music now. It's kinda this thing I've thought about before. I've had this idea that people could just watch streams with their own music on top of who they're watching. It's one of the things I've thought about for awhile now. It solves the problem of worrying about DMCA for twitch and youtube, and it's just annoying as hell editing clips that have music in them. It sucks, and I have to just listen to music in my headphones that my stream can't hear. I usually play only videogame music but after this I just don't want to risk it anymore.
Ludwigs idea that “just go to another platform” doesn’t mean shit. As he said say XQC breaks tos on twitch, he goes to RUclips and he will get slammed there way faster... just platform hopping won’t solve the problem
Copyright free playlist is not the best idea. Many of these songs 1: are claimed later or 2: are falsely claimed as “copyright free.” I highly recommend paying for a service that gives out the license to their music.
95% of Ludwigs music is DMCA free. He even makes dedicated music streams where chat can vote which songs (DMCA free only) are getting added to the playlists.
love your content man. I am a small streamer and have already seen these problems coming and made sure to cover myself beforehand. Is there a way to contact you to maybe get a view from a smaller streamer on this issue?
Problem with all this DMCA stuff is, as Hoeg Law informed a few videos ago, most all streamed game content CAN be subject to Copyright takedowns. This is getting very complicated.
This is why DMCApocalypse's happen. The laws are very unclear about fair use, what is prohibited and what is not. For example, simply opening the youtube page could be DMCA as YT is copyrighted. Watching a trailer that is publicly provided for free on youtube is technically copyrighted material. Most reaction videos are DMCA liable. It is incredibly grey area that corporations are using to generate a ton of profit out of thin air. It's quite ridiculous.
I'm not sure if I agree with this argument that Amazon only buys for profit... Why would they buy Whole Foods if not for infrastructure? Food/Grocery store margins are horrible. You can see the business thinking because it gave Amazon a place to put their containers and gain access to a certain clientele. Amazon buying Twitch and including Twitch Prime I think is going beyond just profit margins. I think it's Amazon cares more about access than short term profitability. Prime video to me isn't as popular as Netflix or even Disney + and Fire TV allows 3rd party apps to play content. I did a research project on Netflix and their profits are terrible too. They rather spend to expand than turn a profit. A lot of business run this way and prior to quarantine it'd be very common to see a Starbucks right across from another Starbucks. It seems like Amazon doesn't care that it's the middle man in these transactions because they're still getting access to the customer and data. US law vs. EU law is also very different. Working in accounting there is a thing called "spirit of the law". Tax accounting practice and laws are trying to be pushed that way at least from the academic side because it's too convoluted for most "average" persons. It's the reason why tax accountants get paid so much is because they work in a gray area where instead of taking the intent of the law... bend it to semantics. The spirit of Napster and Limewire was to straight up steal content. The spirit of streamers with background music is not malicious (as far as what I can see). This reminds me of watching movies on VHS. The copyright warning took FOREVER, but I'm sure someone's copy of a Disney film ended up being played on a school trip. This all kind of ends up in the jaywalking realm for me. Yes, it's 100% illegal, but it's not malicious in nature and to me overall a harmless infraction. A lot of businesses have loss leaders like Costco hot dogs. I think Amazon dumping Twitch would be a huge stain on Amazon's perception... and if anyone wants public goodwill I think it'd be worth it for them to fight these DMCA claims even with the liability issue. It's going to happen one way or the other and having collective bargaining power of not only numerous creators, but a large company is actually ideal. It'd be horrible if each creator had to fight this issue alone. Twitch isn't the only company that streams. This will literally effect every "live" platform. I think planning for the worst is smart, but I'm more inline with Ludwig's thinking. All of these businesses whether it's Facebook, RUclips, Twitch, Tiktok, Google, Microsoft... they all want to be able to make money off of live streams. Especially in the world of quarantine... killing businesses that allow for consumers to stay at home is not realistic in my eyes. If companies want to claim content then creators should claim revenue since they bring traffic to these artists for a marketing fee.
There is going to be a minimum number of viewers needed (total) across Twitch using a brand new model meant to make Twitch profitable. If implementing all the new rules removes all the BIG steamers, but the number of viewers are over that minimum, then Amazon is going to pull that trigger at some point. It isn't about loosing big names, and essentially missing out on the future potential of these big streamers, it is about getting the business model profitable.
Just an idea for streamers with large audiences. What they could do, is have their audience through sheer numbers go through their content and with a tool have that reported to the streamer with timestamps for him or her to delete.
I think competition on twitch would get a lot easier. They people not streaming copyright music will rise as the ones using copyright music get band. As some one who uses Stream Beats , Table Top Audio , or the sound from the game I am playing, I am feeling like i'll be fine.
I was forced to delete all 11 years worth of clips and vods. Because twitch does not have a bulk vod delete it took hours. 3 months ago I stopped streaming with any music in the background in order to stay safe. Since then I have lost viewers because they came for the fun moments that would come up with the music. Twitch soundtrack does not have rebroadcasting licenses for the music on it and they are getting DMCA notices because of it. They should not be promoting soundtrack at all as this was not what the twitch users asked for a new tool.
I am sorry but these big streamers overestimate how irreplaceable they are. There would be a bunch of new streamers taking their place who actually don't infringe on copyright. Twitch would be fine banning people left and right.
Or play videos from another platform where copyrighted material may be in the background. Or stream while walking past a store where copyrighted material is played.
IF (and that’s a big if) the speculation is true... IF this was, in part, a stunt to boost take up of Twitch Soundtrack, I’d say it’s turned into the equivalent of a skateboarding face plant and someone in strategy just got told to put all the stuff from their desk into a box and take a long walk. As someone looking to start a content studio I am personally now looking at Twitch and thinking “maybe not a wise move”. Thank you gents for the perfect reminder to never have all of ones eggs in the one basket.
Would a Twitch-exclusive streamer getting banned for DMCA result in them not being able to jump to a competitor for the remainder of their contract? And would they have to pay some fine or penalty for not being able to fulfill their contract (similar to Mixer shutting down and paying out Shroud and Ninja)?
@@xXHappymanXx1 I understand the streamer would not get paid. Would Twitch stop them from broadcasting elsewhere or look for money to be returned because the streamer is unable to fulfill their end of the contract due to reasons outside of Twitch's control? DrDisrespect being banned via TOS could have a different effect on the contract than a DMCA ban, right?
I think I get where Lud is coming from, but I feel it's easier for twitch to just hit the delete/ban button and have 1 less problem to deal with. They've done it in the past and will continue to do so in the future.
Idk, I think I would rather see bans of the guilty than everyone losing all of their VOD content as that would have a heavy impact on some communities to a level where it might never be repairable. The best solution is that Twitch lets their creators delete all of their stuff themselves if they feel like they are affected with the click of a button so they can archive all important things on their own and then hold them liable for what they have on their channel. Even for a couple of months make that button so extremely easily accessible so that when you log in on Twitch and stare at that front page the first thing you see is that giant button.
The best solution is allowing creators to private their entire list immediately... then said creator can spend the following two hours picking a handful that they can safely switch back to public... then said creator can take their time to slowly pick through their videos and release them back to public as they check through them.
what I don't understand is why they aren't considering that there might be lawsuits against them the creators for infringing copyright as well and not just the platform...
A decade ago when 'black friday' happened in the poker world Bodog deleted everything from their website to avoid going down like the rest of the companies and it worked.
so can you stream a song that is copywritten and then delete all of your clips and videos afterwards and not be in trouble? does this only cover music that is recorded live or does it cover all music even during the livestream?
All past videos can provide you a strike if they get flagged for DMCA. All new content is also liable. If you get 3 flags, you're shut down. This is why this is scary for most streamers. Over x amount of years it is likely you've had more than 3 copyrightable material published on your channel. So your 3 flags will be used up immediately and you will be permanently banned with no prior notice. Going forward, it is best to just avoid music as they are the hungriest for DMCA's. Although i have had vods muted with no music and absolute silence on them before.
@@noahodum9737 this didn’t answer my question. If you turn off clips and replay of your stream, so there is no recorded content on your stream, can you still stream music that is copy written.
@@WyattRNilsson Which is why twitch's email makes absolutely 0 sense. If you've already got DMCA'd then the content is already logged and filed for court, so deleting it makes 0 sense other than Amazon not having to pay future revenues to the copyright holders.
It is interesting that the streamers don’t realize the amount of monetary liability they have with the DMCA means. The lawsuit costs alone for one piece of music would be more than most who don’t run a company like Devin could handle.
Around 33 minutes is going to be an insane clip quoting Ludwig to look back upon in the near future after everything hits in the next 36 months. It demonstrates a lack of awareness and experience.
I think best case scenario twitch is just sold by Amazon if it gets to that point. It'll just be a slight loss to them in the long run and they can wash their hands of it. Alternatively they just shut the whole platform down.
I don't know how twitch works, but if you could unlist the vods/clips and put them in an unlisted playlist, then you could link the playlist on twitter or wherever you want and fans who want to will be able to watch it back but it wouldn't be visible on your channel.
Yeah dude this literally hurts my brain to listen to. The fact that Lud doesn’t understand anything about business is crazy. Every single thing devin said not only can happen, but most of it will. You may think it will never happen but the craziest shit that happens to you in life comes out of nowhere from the smallest problems. I have been burned literally 10s of times for hundreds of thousands of dollars by naively thinking these things won’t happen (obviously not my money but my company’s). The second you affect any company’s bottom line they go right to the exact wording of deliverables in contracts or any official statements they have given. They are already putting the blame on creators according to their email, and they will even go as far as assisting the DMCA issuers to fuck you to the fullest extent they can if it means saving some PR and few grand.
when playing apex legends i was hit with dmca with only me talking to chat and minutes later dmca on pure silence other than just jumping out of the ship flying in. vod was taken down
Sitting at around 22:28 currently.. I think a good way to explain to users who do not have experience with business mindset is gangrene. If it's infected and can everything with it, then it's time to consider amputating. It's possible that it's beyond the point they can cure the disease and it's too big an issue. That seems to be a fairly similar situation from what I can tell.
Can someone explain how he did this video? Did he record his stream and then also Ludwigs stream then paste ludwigs stream recording video box in post editing? He’s not doing Ludwig at that quality live right?
It's much easier for those looking for copyright infringement than the likes of Twitch trying to deal with it first because the music company knows every track they own and provide the fingerprint to the service they use to combat copyright infringement. Twitch don't have the same kind of access (although through Amazon they could probably grab the fingerprints of every track in prime music I suppose) and unlike YT where the labels have a motivation for providing these fingerprints as they can grab a massive chunk of revenue from taking over the ads, twitch Ad revenue is much less significant so it probably makes more sense not to and then potentially take legal action against the biggest names later
Why can't you just buy a PRS music license which allows you to play music virtually anywhere. The tarrifs depend on the venue, for example there is one for background music. Either the individual streamer could get a licence or Twitter could come to an arrangement with PRS. Granted, some of the tarrifs aren't cheap, a couple of hundred pounds a year, but that's not a lot when you break it down a month.
What I think is being missed about taking down all the big creators is that there are always more to replace you. Just because you are big, does not make you invincible. They will mass ban everyone who is in violation and those that are smaller streamers will stay and soak up the views.
They should have copied the content ID system and make it better. Because it's good it supports crops more than creator if it biased towards creators that'll seriously help everyone. But that'll make twitch reliable the DMCA too
There’s no way Amazon will give up the market share they have with Twitch because of the copyright issues. They also can’t expect people to regulate themselves - it never works out. There will probably be a penalty for using copyright material going forward which will push people towards their Soundtrack option
Like devin said in the video. Twitch is infinitesimally small revenue to amazon compared to everything else. It doesnt even make up 0.01% of its revenue. But the one product that has the worst liability is definitely twitch. It can get them into so much legality issues because like he also said in the video all these guys are gonna see is a website that breaks the law almost every minute the site is up. Amazon is gonna drop it or shut it down
Selling it to Facebook makes the most sense. Facebook would like to obtain more market share, amazon wants to get rid of liability. It benefits both in the best ways. Amazon doesn't care about twitch. Twitch has even said this. They only care if they're making money, and provide them the tools to make money. Twitch is not profitable, but is very slwoly becoming profitable. It is far more likely amazon sells twitch than shuts it down. Facebook would likely be the primary buyer as they stand to gain the most and would likely offer the best proposition. Google is another potential buyer, but since they own 30% of the market already, buying twitch doesn't actually make too much sense when they're steadily growing already and have an easier way to transition more users into stream viewers.
what would he talk about? Just wondering because i feel like the only cool thing was she had 400k viewers but like besides that devin isnt really a political commentator
After this talk they watched the stream together on the call. But thats not relevant to the dmca narative. Better go watch the vod before devin nukes his vods. He already deleted his clips
After this talk they watched the stream together on the call. But thats not relevant to the dmca narative. Better go watch the vod before devin nukes his vods. He already deleted 8 years of his clips
Devin is mastering the titles and thumbnails, looks like Lud is wearing off on him
who is lud...some bad actor?
lud gave him title during interview
r/woooosh
The fact that it's even possible for the number 1 streaming platform in the world, which is owned by one of the largest companies in the world, to be potentially shut down, in an era where live-streaming is such a huge part of online media (to the extent that it has created dozens/hundreds of millionaires and mainstream celebrities) is pretty insane to me. The music industry could literally kill an entire media landscape
That's why it baffled me that people thought they would take a chance on it anyways over the years. I've been sitting back thinking "...hm..alright...if you think nothing will happen lol...go for it...play that song man...".
@@Blast66666 Yea the ones who play copyrighted music has only themselves to blame.
@YaboiShaun no one relies on the internet but everyone seeks some form of entertainment. Everyone is just up in arms that one form of entertainment (music industry) can shut down another form of entertainment (livestreaming) if you dont use copyrighted content that has legal restrictions you will have no problem getting through this.
@YaboiShaun you're assuming that everyone is capable of doing the things that they're observing on social media. That's ableist and classist all at the same time. And I personally use social media to keep in easy contact with my international friends around the world.
@YaboiShaun Its not a connection. Its entertainment. I dont watch TV, or read the magazine, but I do watch twitch and scroll through twitter occasionally. How is that so hard for some people to understand? Entertainment isn't a new concept, and of course you had to throw in the racism towards Americans in there for good measure. People like you bore me.
Plot twist : Twitch uploads all of their vods on youtube as private vods & wait for the YT content ID system to track down the clips with copyrighted content
I was wondering why TwwitchhLuver69420 had so many uploads
The first 22 minutes of this, all I could think is that Lud is vastly overestimating the economic and cultural significance of Twitch. It's gotta be hard to recognize that the platform is insignificant when you have a literal football stadium of viewers on every stream, and you're not even top 5 at any given hour. Humans are so bad at judging scale by orders of magnitude in our heads.
Ya he def is. Also considering that twitch is literally notoriously bad at doing these things. Hell they've had and known about this 4+ yrs and they still havent implemented some of the most basic and easiest things to do. Like privating vods/clips. Its either delete them all or keep all of them up
@@mrclean465 coal is like one the most valuable industries, so idk probs not the best example. Also thats from like 200 some odd yrs of legislation that evolved to get to that point. You really think these people who are in charge of making laws understand what the internet is... let alone twitch
Yeah I think the crazy amount of money they make from a very specific group of people gives them this disconnected sense of reality. Like getting 50-100k viewers is a huge deal on twitch, but those same numbers on RUclips or cable TV are amateur.
@@mrclean465 coal is a vital resource for the majority of global infrastructure, not some niche little video game platform with an audience of children.You know that weird shit called electricity that powers your tiktok and pornhub device? You can thank coal for a large percentage of that.
@@nickuva6508 well tbf its also a different audience thing. RUclips is a vod so u can continue to gain views as soon as u upload.. in a day from now, a week, even years later. Also an average most vids are 6-12 mins long, you can watch one from one youtuber then watch a completely different video from a different youtuber. Twitch is a live service where you have to actively watch one guy for hours and you cant really support more than one person the same way like it is on youtube. Your actively competing against every other streamer on the site for viewers. So 50-100k concurrent viewers is actually quite impressive to do.
But all that being said ya i dont think he understands the legalities and what what these people who have the power to change shit can really do
If something is not copyrighted right now, they should not be able to retroactively copyright strike it, that would be like if a house is build in the 1980's then new regulations come in now and you have to change your house to the new regulations without planning to renovate the house. (Ofc you have to follow the new regulations if you do something on your house after the new regulations) just like you would not use the newly copyrighted song after it has been copyrighted.
Unfortunately this is not how copyright works and your house example doesn't apply. A platform not being able to implement a content ID system like RUclips doesn't make using an unlicensed song legal. It's more like building your house in 1980 was already against the regulations, just there was no way to test it until now. The rules didn't change.
While it's complete BS in my books aswell, e.g. I think using music in the background mixed with other sounds like talking should be treated differently than ripping/straight up reuploading music. But acting like DMCA didn't exist until 2 days ago is just foolish in the first place, and by current law they have no right to complain. Again, I dislike the system and it needs overhaul, but until now every one making money by streaming HAD to know it wouldn't go on like this forever.
@@de_vast1142 yeah exactly. Before a couple years ago, Twitch was just operating against the rules. The problem is they became too big and now they have to follow the rules. At least RUclips has a proper system in place for this stuff, even if it's not perfect. Twitch just has to go full power on any issue because they don't have a system in place agreed with the record labels and publishers.
But the difference is its always been copyrighted, twitch just never implemented it
Every game you play on twitch is grounds for infringement, every brand, logo, design, poster, label, shirt, hat you wear or have in your webcam is grounds for infringement. So, as what Devin said. How far do you want to go with this?
The difference is that all these things you listed understand free marketing and having a symbiotic relationship with creators and studios/brands etc. Music industry does not care because they have federal laws that HEAVILY weigh in their direction. Like Devin said "RUclips goes to the far extreme, they'll strike you for whistling a tune in a video". Imagine how much money RUclips/Google have and they still air on the side of caution when it comes to music and DMCA strikes. The Music Industry runs off the mantra of "fuck you, pay me".
The thing with games is that companies understand that having popular content creators playing their games gives them an incredible amount of public attention, which then further increases the amount of people who buy their games exponentially. It's why they pay people to play their games early (and sometimes pay for good reviews :/)
Clothing companies tend to just not give a shit, this isn't worth their time and cases about it get rejected a lot. Most of the time they make deals with people to shill their clothes, which is fair honestly.
Music companies just want to make the most money as possible and if a creator's channel needs to get deleted to do so, it'll be deleted. Fighting them is essentially like going into a gunfight with a knife. You got a chance to win, but it ain't great.
I'm going to make up a number and say maybe about half the games we play include a streaming clause in their EULA that allows us to stream without infringing on copyrights, the other half also understand the symbiotic relationship with streaming and advertising their game so they don't enforce infringement, and only a handful of games or companies actually enforce copyright and prevent people from streaming their game. Yep, those last ones are typically dead games.
2025: xqc reacts to livestream fails: ludwig's dmca hearing
Sir, found you on a recommendation from another YT fav of mine, and respect! I had this conversation with half a dozen streamers I support (with more than donations) circa Feb 2020, and man, this exact flavor of denial is what I got hit with. Hats off to you for really going the whole distance to try and explain this to someone. Like, Sub, Respect!
I heard you guys talking about the title and thumbnail when I watched this live and I still got clickbaited...
GG devin and lud...gg
Same, I thought something else had popped off but nope same convo. Though it was very "intresting" to see the stance Ludwig took on the issue.
Me from 2030: “ remember when we had people streaming things live on the internet”.
Me in 2030 "Ah good times good times."
its 2020 bro, so optimistic of you to think we have 10 more years to live.
@@Paul_Ironwolf You're alive?
38:54 - What Ludwig says here is true but also the reason Twitch is in this predicament as we speak. For too long Twitch has kept a blind eye to copyrighted content and it has created a culture on Twitch where people grow and practically build their following from mixing their original concepts with material they don't own and id argue for some creators growth has come from using a higher ratio of copyrighted content over original ideas.
RUclips has done the opposite and here creators know the copyright law alot better and while some will try flirt with the rules of DMCA, the content ID system does a good enough job of deterring the same live streaming content culture which thrives on Twitch.
53:48 - Ludwig mirrors the above point of view right here.
I think a better way to explain it to Ludwig would have been using his Twitch chat as an analogy. If someone in his chat was just spamming the N word, he would still ban them despite them being drowned out by 10,000 other people. Him banning that one guy is going to have no measurable impact on the speed/flow of chat, but it would still remove a stain from his community, and in this case Twitch is a stain on Amazons record. Even if Twitch made x10 what its losing it would mean nothing to a company the size of Amazon, so when you factor in the fact that it's literally losing them money there's no way in fuck they should keep it.
@M C I Agree, I feel Amazon bought Twitch for the same reason Google bought RUclips, so they could record our data and sell it to other companies.
Ludwig sounds soo naive thinking that they will not mass ban a bunch of streamers, and that he can switch to another streaming site and expect the same kind of viewership. Sadly this is legal action, and not just part of Twitch ToS. If the record companies want users banned for having copywriter content in streamers old vods, they will start holding twitch accountable for it, and they will have no choice but to start banning people. Thinking he is safe is just not a gamble I would take if I was in his position.
Yeah but he sees that he has RUclips to fall back onto if twitch was to ban him, and the exposure he would get from the ban news would make his viewership pop off on whatever platform he would go to, just look at the Doc. He also feels that there are other ways for twitch to solve the problem without flat out banning their top streamers.
@@ryantucker6236 that's IF twitch feels like actually doing something that helps their creators. Also Ludwig is speaking from a very selfish stance if what you say is true about him falling back on his youtube.
When Ludwig say "boomers just don't understand blah blah(sry can't remember the whole quote)" and Devin comes back with "Yea but these Boomers write the laws" really did show how naive he is. This mentality of "if you're over X age you don't understand me or the current times" is extremely idiotic. Who made these platforms? "Boomers", this also brushes aside that there are 20/30/40 something year olds who are making these rules/laws. Saying someone is a boomer is a really terrible argument cause the term has evolved from what an actual Boomer is to "oh I'm 18, you're 24 fuckin boomer" lol. Like I'm fuckin 28 and have been called a boomer by kids a lot. I laugh cause I'm speaking a truth and you can't handle it so you deny it. That's pretty much what I got from Ludwig.
It's pretty surprising how in denial some of these streamers are on the situation- completely denying the risk to the platform. im in awe.
you never belive you can fail i guess, especially when it's about apperance and there for ego.
I think the music companies will make an example out of large creators with lawsuits
Devin, isn't it weird that big companies that claim DMCAs aren't taking the content creator playing their shit or what ever as free ads or marketing? Isn't it super profitable that a big content creator showcasing songs or promoting shows that they like profitable? I can't count the number of time I've discovered new artists and search for them right away after watching a stream
I found “no stop” from foster people due to devin dance clip😅 is crazy how boomer the music industry is. I see a song played and I liked it I will find it on Spotify or buy it
@@Drahko12 music business andy here,
Short: Not really.
Long story: A casual listener is worth actually nothing.
A listener on average listens to a song 2-3 times.
1000 people finding a song is worth about 2-5 dollars. after getting this about 50 times. they might sell 1 piece of merch at a profit margin of 20-50 usd.
You as singular person are actually worth nothing to a musician.
Clout therefore means little to nothing unless it's a ridiculous amt total at once.
In music (as well as other content creation) the top 10% makes 90% of the money. so unless this clout is pushing people into the top 10% it actually doesnt matter in any significant way with very very few nishe cases where it isnt like that. often in communities like the furry community, vtuber, anything pretty simpy really.
@Sad Panda Exactly, this is about controlling the competition.
Not really.
This is what I keep saying. Like twitch does a lot for games. Such as among us and whatnot but does a lot for music and such too. All of the net does. I mean hell that one Fleetwood Mac song from 1977 hit a top chart spot in 2020 cuz of viral internet tiktok means. I find so much music and whatnot via streams its like insane to think its anything but free publicity. Its not even like these streams most the time are rip offs. I get flat out ripping it off but this isn't the case
Love these videos. Ludwig videos & the EX Coach videos have been my favorites
Loved the back and fourth between these two. This is great content.
Devin, I hear ya on the music industry take. The hammer will drop hard. YT and FB are doing everything in their power to take market share, remember that, and they already have systems in place for copyright. With Microsoft potentially working closer with FB now after the merger, Twitch is bound to feel the burn of their blunders while the other companies try to take their piece. Streams get silenced pretty damn quick and content is shadow banned when flagged on FB. YT streams can be taken down mid stream and removed from the platform, same with regular videos, along with perm strikes if monetized. Meanwhile on Twitch, streamers are playing entire albums and making money while copyrighted music is filling the dead air in their streams. Can't tell me Twitch creators didn't see this day coming.. Pro athletes, celebrities and now politicians are streaming. The market is opening up now, the taboo of nerds gaming is dying, and the dinosaurs on Twitch that think copyright doesn't exist are about to be evicted to make room for the new wave of broadcasters coming in from other industries. People are home on their devices now more than ever, watching online content. From the major company players involved, the time is now to make these changes so that they can profit as well.
Nerd gamer dying? Omegalul
@@LisboaDrive the taboo of it, yes
@@MilDudus what taboo? This is just a $ thing.
@@LisboaDrive In China and S Korea it's a cool thing to game. Some esports are looked upon like real sports. The point was that the rest of the world is starting to catch up. With that, the numbers go up, the viewers, the acceptance. There's money to be made and the companies losing out on that money that's rightfully owed to them are coming for that money now that the taboo of gaming being for nerds is diminishing. Just a side point to the main one. Piracy can very well bring down Twitch and it's non-compliant creators.
Imagine what all the music streams feel whenever anything dmca related happens on twitch.
He was playing league of legends under a staircase like harry potter. I have pics
1:04:02 Lud is an absolute savage xD
Devin is right about high-level executives. They are just looking at a spreadsheet and making a decision based on that. It's not personal at all, it's just business. But the other guy is also right about streamers being driven by ego and just saying "screw them" if twitch bans them. Plenty of streamers and few of them are good businessmen.
this is the shit. thanks devin for posting this phenomenal piece of art. your analogy with the field air bomb and ludwigs answer to that cracked me up so hard :'D keep up the great work!
dude ludwig is hilarious! “i will change nothing.” and i just exploded
very enjoyable talk, watched it all without problems, i rly liked it.
The title worked this is the first time ive ever seen you in my sub box despite being subbed for a while
On the Scuffed Podcast, the guests (including Devin Nash) also discussed this process of identifying potentially DMCA-able content using RUclips's Content ID system:
Hypothetically, a streamer could download all their VODs, upload them all (privately) to RUclips, wait for the Content ID system to identify copyrightable content, and proceed to delete/perhaps modify those identified VODs.
The issue they explained with this is that even the RUclips Content ID system is flawed and that content with copyrightable content will not _always_ be identified for the creator, yet still be taken down due to strikes. Devin explained that while the RUclips system is the *best* system they have (especially in comparison to Twitch's system, Audible Magic) to automatically identify copyrightable content, it is not completely reliable and that Twitch streamers can still be subject to DMCAs and therefore have their content continually deleted without notice (and obviously, if/when they have three DMCA strikes they'll be taken off the platform) - which is bloody insane.
Devin also brought up streamers, particularly DansGaming, who have VODs from _eleven_ years ago, who have a significant impact and sentiment within the Twitch community. The absolute misery that must come from streamers having to delete years (even decades) of their content is shocking.
I will say, I am thoroughly impressed by xQcow's approach: he asked his fans to post their favourite clips onto his community's discord server, his Mods would compile them together in a "Highlights"-esque montage, and they would be uploaded to RUclips as an archive. (xQcow expressed he is not the sentimental kind; that the documentation of some of his greatest moments is not important to him as he can remember and recall memorable times - but nonetheless, mad respect to all streamers on the bloody incredible platform).
I'll also mention that Kandyland talked about how Twitch were once considering a way for music and voice to be recorded on a different line so that streamers could simply remove music from their uploaded VODs (5Head) but fuck-all happened with that, evidently.
TrainwrecksTV Pepega brought up a point about this being a good time for Twitch streamers and creator to "strike" against Twitch with the intention for creator to demand Twitch to create a better content ID system, or perhaps give streamers the ability to unlist their VODs, much like RUclips - which, as far as I know, isn't very convoluted to enable - etc... who knows?
This sounded like COVID-19 for VODs.... maybe the plague Sadge
Oh yeah, 40:01 LULW
I've often wondered why Amazon would put the efforts into Twitch (no offense intended) with a looming liability such as DMCA laws. It's kind of hard to see the return being a major player for Amazon.
One of the channels i watch, records everything to harddrives in addition to vods!
As do I
Ludwig sounds like Clone High JFK sometimes
Ludwig is the one of the smartest and most diverse creators. I love how he dares to fly too close to the sun and live. Thats punk man.
Or delusional...
time stamps and/or using the youtube segment feature thingy would be very helpful in the future :) love the informative content
Also I think I'll just not even stream with any music now. It's kinda this thing I've thought about before. I've had this idea that people could just watch streams with their own music on top of who they're watching. It's one of the things I've thought about for awhile now. It solves the problem of worrying about DMCA for twitch and youtube, and it's just annoying as hell editing clips that have music in them. It sucks, and I have to just listen to music in my headphones that my stream can't hear. I usually play only videogame music but after this I just don't want to risk it anymore.
29:00 you can quote Alpha Gaming, it's public on youtube.
Exactly
It wasn't at the time of the livestream
@@theliftoffproduction Oh, I see. Makes sense.
imagine if logic got dmca'd on his own music
Does logic own his music or his label
I mean, Logic doesn't own 100% of his masters so its possible
Ludwig is a man among men if he goes down like he say he will. God speed.
If a video gets a copyright claim, and not a copyright strike on youtube, would this be a possible strike on twitch?
Ludwigs idea that “just go to another platform” doesn’t mean shit. As he said say XQC breaks tos on twitch, he goes to RUclips and he will get slammed there way faster... just platform hopping won’t solve the problem
Copyright free playlist is not the best idea. Many of these songs 1: are claimed later or 2: are falsely claimed as “copyright free.” I highly recommend paying for a service that gives out the license to their music.
Great title, nice job Ludwig :)
Ludwig and other streamers who play mainstream copyrighted music are sailing on the Titanic. And heck, maybe the entire twitch platform is a titanic.
95% of Ludwigs music is DMCA free. He even makes dedicated music streams where chat can vote which songs (DMCA free only) are getting added to the playlists.
Awwww did someone flagrantly violate the TOS of the streaming site by doing the thing that we all knew was a no-no?
Poor thing.
love your content man. I am a small streamer and have already seen these problems coming and made sure to cover myself beforehand. Is there a way to contact you to maybe get a view from a smaller streamer on this issue?
Problem with all this DMCA stuff is, as Hoeg Law informed a few videos ago, most all streamed game content CAN be subject to Copyright takedowns. This is getting very complicated.
This is why DMCApocalypse's happen. The laws are very unclear about fair use, what is prohibited and what is not. For example, simply opening the youtube page could be DMCA as YT is copyrighted. Watching a trailer that is publicly provided for free on youtube is technically copyrighted material. Most reaction videos are DMCA liable. It is incredibly grey area that corporations are using to generate a ton of profit out of thin air. It's quite ridiculous.
...wait does he not know HOW MANY times PirateBay has been taken down over the years and just jumps between countries lol
when lud mentioned the chuggaaconroy thing that took me back
also typical ludwig throwing for content LULW
So is playing music live ok, just don't save vods or allow clips?
I'm not sure if I agree with this argument that Amazon only buys for profit... Why would they buy Whole Foods if not for infrastructure? Food/Grocery store margins are horrible. You can see the business thinking because it gave Amazon a place to put their containers and gain access to a certain clientele. Amazon buying Twitch and including Twitch Prime I think is going beyond just profit margins. I think it's Amazon cares more about access than short term profitability. Prime video to me isn't as popular as Netflix or even Disney + and Fire TV allows 3rd party apps to play content. I did a research project on Netflix and their profits are terrible too. They rather spend to expand than turn a profit. A lot of business run this way and prior to quarantine it'd be very common to see a Starbucks right across from another Starbucks. It seems like Amazon doesn't care that it's the middle man in these transactions because they're still getting access to the customer and data. US law vs. EU law is also very different. Working in accounting there is a thing called "spirit of the law". Tax accounting practice and laws are trying to be pushed that way at least from the academic side because it's too convoluted for most "average" persons. It's the reason why tax accountants get paid so much is because they work in a gray area where instead of taking the intent of the law... bend it to semantics. The spirit of Napster and Limewire was to straight up steal content. The spirit of streamers with background music is not malicious (as far as what I can see). This reminds me of watching movies on VHS. The copyright warning took FOREVER, but I'm sure someone's copy of a Disney film ended up being played on a school trip. This all kind of ends up in the jaywalking realm for me. Yes, it's 100% illegal, but it's not malicious in nature and to me overall a harmless infraction. A lot of businesses have loss leaders like Costco hot dogs. I think Amazon dumping Twitch would be a huge stain on Amazon's perception... and if anyone wants public goodwill I think it'd be worth it for them to fight these DMCA claims even with the liability issue. It's going to happen one way or the other and having collective bargaining power of not only numerous creators, but a large company is actually ideal. It'd be horrible if each creator had to fight this issue alone. Twitch isn't the only company that streams. This will literally effect every "live" platform. I think planning for the worst is smart, but I'm more inline with Ludwig's thinking. All of these businesses whether it's Facebook, RUclips, Twitch, Tiktok, Google, Microsoft... they all want to be able to make money off of live streams. Especially in the world of quarantine... killing businesses that allow for consumers to stay at home is not realistic in my eyes. If companies want to claim content then creators should claim revenue since they bring traffic to these artists for a marketing fee.
There is going to be a minimum number of viewers needed (total) across Twitch using a brand new model meant to make Twitch profitable. If implementing all the new rules removes all the BIG steamers, but the number of viewers are over that minimum, then Amazon is going to pull that trigger at some point. It isn't about loosing big names, and essentially missing out on the future potential of these big streamers, it is about getting the business model profitable.
Just an idea for streamers with large audiences. What they could do, is have their audience through sheer numbers go through their content and with a tool have that reported to the streamer with timestamps for him or her to delete.
He not ONLY used a total banger of a title but look at that THUMBNAIL. He's insane.
Great thumbnail and title, keep it up 👍
2020: Lets destroy the streamers rather than ourselves - Twitch
Everyone: BYE TWITCH.
I'm just downloading everything now.
I think competition on twitch would get a lot easier. They people not streaming copyright music will rise as the ones using copyright music get band. As some one who uses Stream Beats , Table Top Audio , or the sound from the game I am playing, I am feeling like i'll be fine.
ludwig is a genius ahha, that covid analogy was the best LOL
I was forced to delete all 11 years worth of clips and vods. Because twitch does not have a bulk vod delete it took hours. 3 months ago I stopped streaming with any music in the background in order to stay safe. Since then I have lost viewers because they came for the fun moments that would come up with the music. Twitch soundtrack does not have rebroadcasting licenses for the music on it and they are getting DMCA notices because of it. They should not be promoting soundtrack at all as this was not what the twitch users asked for a new tool.
I am sorry but these big streamers overestimate how irreplaceable they are. There would be a bunch of new streamers taking their place who actually don't infringe on copyright. Twitch would be fine banning people left and right.
Or play videos from another platform where copyrighted material may be in the background. Or stream while walking past a store where copyrighted material is played.
@Devin Nash I hope you hit 1 million subscribers!!!!! :D
Couldn't resist clicking even tho I knew.. Well played Devin.. Well played.
IF (and that’s a big if) the speculation is true... IF this was, in part, a stunt to boost take up of Twitch Soundtrack, I’d say it’s turned into the equivalent of a skateboarding face plant and someone in strategy just got told to put all the stuff from their desk into a box and take a long walk. As someone looking to start a content studio I am personally now looking at Twitch and thinking “maybe not a wise move”. Thank you gents for the perfect reminder to never have all of ones eggs in the one basket.
wouldn't be the first time where a big company/website just disappears.
So what is the proper way to find non copyrighted music?
I love your videos man, thanks and keep it up.
Would a Twitch-exclusive streamer getting banned for DMCA result in them not being able to jump to a competitor for the remainder of their contract?
And would they have to pay some fine or penalty for not being able to fulfill their contract (similar to Mixer shutting down and paying out Shroud and Ninja)?
The contract would be void just like with DrDisrespects contract they will not get paid
@@xXHappymanXx1 I understand the streamer would not get paid. Would Twitch stop them from broadcasting elsewhere or look for money to be returned because the streamer is unable to fulfill their end of the contract due to reasons outside of Twitch's control? DrDisrespect being banned via TOS could have a different effect on the contract than a DMCA ban, right?
hmmm no socials for Ludwig in the description.. ??
im here for you tho nash keep up the good work
I think I get where Lud is coming from, but I feel it's easier for twitch to just hit the delete/ban button and have 1 less problem to deal with. They've done it in the past and will continue to do so in the future.
This video is doing incredibly well. Good job!
Idk, I think I would rather see bans of the guilty than everyone losing all of their VOD content as that would have a heavy impact on some communities to a level where it might never be repairable. The best solution is that Twitch lets their creators delete all of their stuff themselves if they feel like they are affected with the click of a button so they can archive all important things on their own and then hold them liable for what they have on their channel. Even for a couple of months make that button so extremely easily accessible so that when you log in on Twitch and stare at that front page the first thing you see is that giant button.
The best solution is allowing creators to private their entire list immediately... then said creator can spend the following two hours picking a handful that they can safely switch back to public... then said creator can take their time to slowly pick through their videos and release them back to public as they check through them.
@@desmckenzie526 Yeah, I think I can definitely get behind that one as well.
Maybe this really started in hard core DMCA mode from TWITCH Sing's & there taking out there loss on us to make them selves feel better.
what I don't understand is why they aren't considering that there might be lawsuits against them the creators for infringing copyright as well and not just the platform...
osu and guitar hero for sure its anything thats like "external music" from IRL thats not designed "for games" specifically
The title worked!!
A decade ago when 'black friday' happened in the poker world Bodog deleted everything from their website to avoid going down like the rest of the companies and it worked.
so can you stream a song that is copywritten and then delete all of your clips and videos afterwards and not be in trouble? does this only cover music that is recorded live or does it cover all music even during the livestream?
All past videos can provide you a strike if they get flagged for DMCA. All new content is also liable. If you get 3 flags, you're shut down. This is why this is scary for most streamers. Over x amount of years it is likely you've had more than 3 copyrightable material published on your channel. So your 3 flags will be used up immediately and you will be permanently banned with no prior notice. Going forward, it is best to just avoid music as they are the hungriest for DMCA's. Although i have had vods muted with no music and absolute silence on them before.
@@noahodum9737 this didn’t answer my question. If you turn off clips and replay of your stream, so there is no recorded content on your stream, can you still stream music that is copy written.
@@WyattRNilsson No. Deleteing the VOD's and clips does not make DMCA go away. DMCA is a legal action, and they've already logged what you've done.
@@WyattRNilsson Which is why twitch's email makes absolutely 0 sense. If you've already got DMCA'd then the content is already logged and filed for court, so deleting it makes 0 sense other than Amazon not having to pay future revenues to the copyright holders.
How do you guys put 2 face cam there?
It is interesting that the streamers don’t realize the amount of monetary liability they have with the DMCA means. The lawsuit costs alone for one piece of music would be more than most who don’t run a company like Devin could handle.
So is the music category just going to disappear?
37:59 OH YEAH WE CAN....DROP THE NUKE
Around 33 minutes is going to be an insane clip quoting Ludwig to look back upon in the near future after everything hits in the next 36 months. It demonstrates a lack of awareness and experience.
I think best case scenario twitch is just sold by Amazon if it gets to that point. It'll just be a slight loss to them in the long run and they can wash their hands of it. Alternatively they just shut the whole platform down.
Message to Ludwig:
You're all expendable
I don't know how twitch works, but if you could unlist the vods/clips and put them in an unlisted playlist, then you could link the playlist on twitter or wherever you want and fans who want to will be able to watch it back but it wouldn't be visible on your channel.
That covid part killed me hahahha
Yeah dude this literally hurts my brain to listen to. The fact that Lud doesn’t understand anything about business is crazy. Every single thing devin said not only can happen, but most of it will. You may think it will never happen but the craziest shit that happens to you in life comes out of nowhere from the smallest problems. I have been burned literally 10s of times for hundreds of thousands of dollars by naively thinking these things won’t happen (obviously not my money but my company’s). The second you affect any company’s bottom line they go right to the exact wording of deliverables in contracts or any official statements they have given. They are already putting the blame on creators according to their email, and they will even go as far as assisting the DMCA issuers to fuck you to the fullest extent they can if it means saving some PR and few grand.
when playing apex legends i was hit with dmca with only me talking to chat and minutes later dmca on pure silence other than just jumping out of the ship flying in. vod was taken down
Sitting at around 22:28 currently.. I think a good way to explain to users who do not have experience with business mindset is gangrene. If it's infected and can everything with it, then it's time to consider amputating. It's possible that it's beyond the point they can cure the disease and it's too big an issue. That seems to be a fairly similar situation from what I can tell.
Can someone explain how he did this video? Did he record his stream and then also Ludwigs stream then paste ludwigs stream recording video box in post editing? He’s not doing Ludwig at that quality live right?
If I wore to do this I would record my stream as in live than after go find the vod of lud and edit it over the video I recorded
@@p0k3mn1 brilliant... and then just line up the audio right?
@@p0k3mn1 fucking love you man. Sometimes my brain no work good but this makes so much sense 🥺🥺🥺
@@p0k3mn1 subbed :)
Yeah that’s what I would do but by no means I’m a great editor so idk
It's much easier for those looking for copyright infringement than the likes of Twitch trying to deal with it first because the music company knows every track they own and provide the fingerprint to the service they use to combat copyright infringement. Twitch don't have the same kind of access (although through Amazon they could probably grab the fingerprints of every track in prime music I suppose) and unlike YT where the labels have a motivation for providing these fingerprints as they can grab a massive chunk of revenue from taking over the ads, twitch Ad revenue is much less significant so it probably makes more sense not to and then potentially take legal action against the biggest names later
Why can't you just buy a PRS music license which allows you to play music virtually anywhere. The tarrifs depend on the venue, for example there is one for background music. Either the individual streamer could get a licence or Twitter could come to an arrangement with PRS. Granted, some of the tarrifs aren't cheap, a couple of hundred pounds a year, but that's not a lot when you break it down a month.
What I think is being missed about taking down all the big creators is that there are always more to replace you. Just because you are big, does not make you invincible. They will mass ban everyone who is in violation and those that are smaller streamers will stay and soak up the views.
Your clickbait skills have increased by 1.
Ludwig wants to believe but he's not getting it. DMCA will start rolling and it'll be the same cry from twitch streamers like RUclipsrs did in 2018/19
They should have copied the content ID system and make it better. Because it's good it supports crops more than creator if it biased towards creators that'll seriously help everyone.
But that'll make twitch reliable the DMCA too
They can’t copy it. That is part of the problem RUclips made their own system and have no incentive to share that with Twitch.
Ludwig is taking a crazy gamble. 33:50
Now I legit wanna see "THE WIPE". Every streamer with 3 strikes out the twitch.
Like a worldwide XP reset LUL
would privating the videos help? atleast till they have a better solution
There’s no way Amazon will give up the market share they have with Twitch because of the copyright issues. They also can’t expect people to regulate themselves - it never works out. There will probably be a penalty for using copyright material going forward which will push people towards their Soundtrack option
Like devin said in the video. Twitch is infinitesimally small revenue to amazon compared to everything else. It doesnt even make up 0.01% of its revenue. But the one product that has the worst liability is definitely twitch. It can get them into so much legality issues because like he also said in the video all these guys are gonna see is a website that breaks the law almost every minute the site is up. Amazon is gonna drop it or shut it down
Selling it to Facebook makes the most sense. Facebook would like to obtain more market share, amazon wants to get rid of liability. It benefits both in the best ways.
Amazon doesn't care about twitch. Twitch has even said this. They only care if they're making money, and provide them the tools to make money. Twitch is not profitable, but is very slwoly becoming profitable. It is far more likely amazon sells twitch than shuts it down. Facebook would likely be the primary buyer as they stand to gain the most and would likely offer the best proposition. Google is another potential buyer, but since they own 30% of the market already, buying twitch doesn't actually make too much sense when they're steadily growing already and have an easier way to transition more users into stream viewers.
You should cover AOC coming to Twitch!
what would he talk about? Just wondering because i feel like the only cool thing was she had 400k viewers but like besides that devin isnt really a political commentator
After this talk they watched the stream together on the call. But thats not relevant to the dmca narative. Better go watch the vod before devin nukes his vods. He already deleted his clips
After this talk they watched the stream together on the call. But thats not relevant to the dmca narative. Better go watch the vod before devin nukes his vods. He already deleted 8 years of his clips