Is Commander Power Creep REALLY That Bad?
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- Опубликовано: 28 авг 2024
- We're examining just how bad power creep has been in Commander over the last decade! What will we find out?
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See it's impossible to power creep infinity so Krenko Mob boss is at the top of his game even in the year of our Lord 2024.
Yup its bad
Krenko and his human counterpart, myrel! My queen, my princess, my love (and I’m talking about krenko!)
I think out of all the cards it's the legendary creatures/commanders of late that are getting more and more pushed. The amount of value you get out of some of the new commanders is just insane.
I'm so early Solemn Simulacrum is still a staple!
it's the power play
But only the Mirrodin version (because I can remember it coming out)
It's crazy to me that etali primal conqueror used to cost like $3-5
Tell me about it, I gave a couple non-foil away when they were $3, should've kept them, lol.
Glad I bought it when I did right after release. Bought 3 copies of Roaming Throne too, which has already doubled in price.
I built a budget deck with him as commander, and Etali is now more expensive than the rest of the deck
@@austinblankenship7631that tickles me haha thanks for sharing
It's so weird how some random cards get globally picked up, gix praetor was like 6usd a week ago ,and currently is at 30usd
Serra Ascendant really exemplifies the nostalgia of "before precons" EDH or even just early days of "commander," back when there were cards that were never meant with a 4 player, 40 life format in mind that just happened to be way better in this format and it took more creativity to find and break cards as opposed to stuff just printed for the format "if you control your commander" etc.
Drannith is one of the last versions of that (ironically he was the counter to the companions which they almost immediately erratad and now he's more infamouse as the "nope" to commanders)
Bounce lands are actually really good in two color decks, they can bounce mdfcs you had to use as an early land drop back to your hand to reuse, and they help you hit your land drops each turn if you run short. Bounce lands i would argue are must play in two color if your using mdfcs.
Entering tapped is a huge draw from these. For higher power level and/or you are playing a fast deck, bounce lands are a bummer.
@@awesomebroification nope definitely not if it puts a seagate restoration or agadeem's awakening back in your hand it is very powerful. Sure not in cedh or at the highest end of casual maybe not, but every other two color deck it is a definite play. I hated them for years but just the off chance of bouncing a mdfc, or frankly helping you hit an extra land drop because it put a land back in your hand is waaaaay stronger than you realize.
bouncing mdfc is amazing, I agree
Bounce lands are straight up unplayable
@@craigstuckey319 i gave exact faxts why that isnt true and you just gave an unsupported opinion, you must not play with mdfcs, or understand deck building strategies, or be a johny combo try hard.
For removal, there's also anguished unmaking, excise the imperfect, and stroke of midnight. Spot removal has gotten so good, and like Mia said we should all be playing more of it. Let's all revise our new year's resolutions. Give up on dropping 10 lbs and instead play 10 more spot removal
A couple of green cards announced just today, Pick Your Poison and Archdruid's Charm, are also incredibly efficient/flexible.
HAD a BLAST on Whatnot stream and actually won the "Bulk"! It arrived today and I will deliver to the "Gang" next week. ["The Gang" is a after school group that plays Magic at my wife's school - I donate all my bulk there already and this will add to the fun!] Many Thanks! I'll be there for the next stream as well!
Avenger of Zendikar is definitely still a bomb today, mainly because it scales really well with the busted things deck have gotten really good at doing, I.e. copying creatures and barfing lands into play.
We can look at the best cards that's a staple or the best cards doing what they do and see when they are printed.
Best lands: Gaea's cradle, Nykthos Shrine to Nyx, Command tower - all printed prior to 2015 at least
Best card for planeswalker deck; doubling season and monstrous raider. So one of them is really old and one is new
Best boardwipe; toxic deluge, cyclonic rift, farewell, and blasphemous act. Three old and one new
Ramp: Most ramps that people play in their decks are pretty old, with only a few new cards here and there.
Best spot removal; deadly rollick, sword to plowshare, nature's claim, pongify. Only one of them is new, the rest are old
Best haymaker; Daddy crater and pathbreaker ibex are both pretty old cards
Best tutor; vamperic tutor, demonic tutor, tooth and nail, green sun zenith are all old cards
Then you have feelsbad card like Sylvana's Stampede and Expropriate that asks you how you would like to get screwed. Which are all printed in 2016.
I think people are reacting really strongly post 2019 about powercreep, which is true with dockside extortionist, orcish bowmaster, and the one ring. However, if we were to look all the staples. Most of them are from before 2017.
I personally think that when talking about power creep, we can also compare the average budget deck of 10 years ago and the average budget deck of today. If the staples of that deck are stronger than its older counterpart, then there has been a power creep for me. There can be more than one reason for a staple to be cheaper, such as said staple being reprinted several times, or a strictly better version being printed which makes the power crept version super accessible for budget players. When more players have access to better cards because they are cheaper, while there might not have been a new card added to the format (when it’s a simple reprint), the decks of several players have been improved by adding this card in their budget decks. And in my book, that’s a small power creep of the format. And I’m not saying it in a bad way, power creep isn’t inherently a bad thing. But inside a format as huge, diverse and the furthest away from a monolithic block as Commander (just look at cEDH), there can certainly be partial power creeps that affect certain kind of players more than others. And analyzing EDH with this angle can be equally as interesting as observing the general trends of the entire format.
I'm old 😢
Minor correction at 16:06 -- MH2 came out in 2021, Beezy mean "this era" (2014-Now) not "this year"
these new commander designs are not only boring with do thing draw card, theyre also super strong and pushed which makes them even more annoying
I think tacking card draw on permanents that either didn’t traditionally have card draw, or giving it to colors where consistent draw-effects aren’t conceptually aligned is a desperate rebalancing attempt.
Cards like Rhystic Study may be conceptually appropriate, but when you’re talking about so much draw for so little investment, your design options in the other colors narrow to making non-creature permanent hate cheaper and more accessible in game, or you can fight fire with fire.
There have been some clear missteps, no argument. Esper Sentinel in White is both disgustingly rich in payoff for a trivial investment, and easy for its color-home to make even more effective.
My personal beef is how cheap and powerful Artifacts have become. These days, they essentially bring the strengths of any color you choose to a deck of any kind.
From my PoV, that’s extremely bad for the game. In Ye Olden Days artifacts might do everything colored spells and permanents did, but it was either more expensive mana-wise, performed the function to a lesser extent than a color-appropriate counterpart, or both.
Now? You have Artifacts performing core color identity functions for less mana and other costs than a high powered blue instant/sorcery.
Very surprised there wasn't a commander category for, well, commander. Other then that great analysis!
It slices!
It Dices!
It cuts Chili and cheese!
It's... The Great Henge
Ramp is definitely better just because theres also more options.
And with that a higher possible density
Loving this unique content, and congrats again on the engagement!
If you compare the cards to each other, Yes there is power creep. What keeps power creep from being power sprinting, is that 1) its typically a 4-player game, 2) It is 100 card singleton, 3) rule zero, 4) most players do not play just good stuff, they build tribes or themes, 5) This one is more anecdotal, but more players are taking out tutors out of their deck.
Cards are getting more efficient, cheaper to cast, and do more things.
why does beezy hate bouncelands? if you play them after turn 7 when your field of the dead is active, you will guarantee another zombie for next turn!! :D
Because bounce lands are straight up unplayable. Absolute hot fucking garbage.
It feels like this was biased. Jeska's will as a draw spell isn't great. It's the mana that makes it great. Avenger of zendikar is still absolutely ridiculous. There are other examples but the bias seemed evident to me
It also doesn't help when you use the same cards in multiple categories.
And the fact that more cards have been released in the last ten years than the previous 20 is something to note. I don't think power creep is happening like most think
This power creep and, let's be honest, cash grabbing by wotc is the reason I wish the Heritage format would be adopted as the card base for commander. No supplementary sets allowed! That's the spirit of commander. All cards should have gone through standard first!
Oh, there is definitely power creep, but also an arms-race mentality, particularly whenever commander isn't just a free night to play whatever. I saw this when I went to my old LGS when visiting family over the holidays, since there was an entry fee and a few packs for prizes, everyone was slamming down mana crypts, jeweled lotus, and even springing for busted things like gilded drakes.
I'll take free commander night with a promo raffle any day.I'll never like fast man or CEDH
I could've sworn yall said hullbreaker in the faerie deck didnt make any sense and wasnt good? 😂
Yes, the power creep is too much in edh especially for a casual 4 player format. Its not a sweaty, 60 card, 4 of, 1v1 format like every other mtg format in existence; if that’s what you crave then play modern or something. Edh is not cedh and the mentality alongside the cardpool is completely different. We need them seperate and more bans in casual, so cedh offenders, are not played in casual like thassas oracle, dockside, mld, stasis, winter orb, and extra turn spells.
You should be able to play a precon in an edh pod; with how muddy rule zero is and the lack of clearly stated guidelines for the edh format, you run into too many non games at the lgs for new players, or players without a dedicated playgroup. Idk how but ppl think winning before turn 5 and denying you playing a game is “casual”, when that sounds like a legacy game or some bs.
Where was abrupt decay for removal?
The clear and obvious answer is yes. Its not about which decade is better its that you can play both, and it creates just a wider birth of broken combos. This isnt wizards fault entirely, its hard to sell weak cards so they have to make cool new stuff. That said i love the video, you two are excellent.
Why not Rhystic Study instead of Mulldrifter for the conditional draw category? Just wonderin'
Thought provoking video.🎉
Makes me wonder what the most powerful thing in commander you could be doing?
Is it card draw, ramp or emoval. If the power of these shifts then perhaps it can change.
The One Ring is so good it's crossed into "I'd rather find a new hobby than play against this" territory.
I think you missed Akroma's Will in your "pumpers" section. It's just so much better than what Gisela does.
This is the Battle of the Deck-Aides.
Don't totally agree on all of your choices, but enjoy the videos. Keep them coming.
Mark Rosewater says that they try to provide a "Escher staircase" of power creep. Where each set maybe power level in one area is higher but then other areas it's lower compared to the previous set. This allows for a much slower process of power creep. Of course an eternal format like commander means power creep is basically inevitable.
How was Inga and eska not mentioned in mana dorks? They turn everything into the bestmana dork
I'll be at magiccon Chicago hopefully meet both of you
So many cards left that old carry some sides, I can remember culling the weak, the meathook massacre as board wipes , as far as lands emergency zone, blast zone, demolition field , trade fiend for invasion of ikoria, the goblin for breach the miror from new eldraine set is 3 black 1 whatever free ring, or the best 4 cmc, I got that as second polymorph , and jetmir, nexus of revels the best haymaker from last year ? + God-Eternal Rhonas and Nissa, Ascended Animist , and ramp like tompiary stomper, the new that search for a basic or cave , bitterhorn! But I bet there old cards that didn't make the list I just start playing in 1st ixalan
Haven’t finished the video yet, maybe they are mentioned later, but I would have put Hour of Promise and Titania’s Command in with Land Tutors for sure. That might be just me though.
In the haymakers category, I think you need to compare old decade 6+ to new decade 5+
This was a really creative analysis; keep up the great work!
When 'arcane signant is too slow' is a common phrase among EDH players
Yes.
You forgot Charismatic Conqueror and Bonehoard Dracosaur in the new list. Those cards are crazy pushed
4:38. Y'all just completely forgot about Noble Hierarch and Ignoble Hierarch
I've had field of the dead for 2 years now. I have never made a Zombie token off it. And yes it's in decks with little to no basics.
Mirrodin was Sept 2003, and would have been a big buff to that decade
I think we also have to be considerate that the new decade probably has double the sets of the past decade.
Speaking of commander, does anyone have any recommendations for a app I can use to track my cards, card price trends and make/save decklists etc?
Fun video, but this does nothing to disprove power creep. EDH is an eternal format, meaning any new powerful cards added to an archetype simple increase power. I see plenty of new players who run cards from either decade.
Kindred decks can benefit from Maskwood nexus, where every creature benefits from every payoff.
Boardwipes category should go to newer, simply due to the amouth of non-symetrical boardwipes existing. At this point almost any theme/strategy has at least one of those.
i used deflecting swat against the thoracle hit the consultation or its similar spell and put it on a diff player only thing i really use it for except to counter a counter
Those ring fingers are lookin good, congratulations you two!!!
Comparatively, Yugioh decks will get power crept sometimes within one set release. If it was broken, it will remain playable for up to 3 years before even casual players will overlook it. Without power creep, sealed sales plummet which in turn will kill the game. Power creep can be beneficial too for casual players being able to afford once expensive cards.
I think last 5 years is a better sample size tbh
Why power creep in commander is inevitable is because even if the old decade had more powerful cards, they don't rotate out, you have access to the old powerful cards and the new ones
No force of vigor for artifact enchantment removeal ?
Am I the only one who doesn't understand the attraction behind Protean Hulk? Getting 6 cmc worth of creatures doesn't seem that good, it's like a collected company or something. Especially for something that needs to die for its effect to trigger, and it's likely going to be exiled before it's effect will trigger.
the appeal is tutoring hulk piles to the battlefield and winning on the spot see: viscera seer, melira, lesser masticore and disciple of the vault. There are quite a few other loops but that’s the one I know off the top of my head
Weird kook upon power creep. Isn't "better than every card in the old category" the definition of power creep?
Power Creep is less about how many cards are printed and more about what card is just categorically better than another. Or you could for example ask: is there an old card that sees lees play, than it used to. For example I think Rampant Growth hasn't gotten any worse but as Three Visits, Nature's Lore and Skyshroud Claim become more available (and maybe even just known to a younger audience) the og Ramp spell seems to wane in presence. (There is hidden Power Creep here in the Lands since there are more typed dual and trilands available. But obviously no Lands creeped out og duals, just maybe made them less important than their price tag dictates over time.)
Mono red/blue/colorless is the only place where some of these still put in work
A bit out of context- does anybody know whats the print on the wall behind nerds? Mtg artwork?
It's an alternate art of Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx. Promo version.
Mentioning "Acidic Slime" basically sends me back to 2011...
necro and ad naus not in draw? I think your comparisons often are decided by the selection and not a bigger comparison
I think the biggest power creep has happened among general creatures and is what often stands out to people. But, at the same time, said general creatures tend not to be big picture consequential when it comes to commander.
It's not surprising there's so much power creep recently since they've simply been printing more cards. I'd like to think that the rate of power creep by cards released is about the same as it used to be.
my thoughts exactly, This paired with actual competition for the first time from tcg's. creep is inevitable but now it's in 10$ packs and at 3x the rate. I used to be able to feel like I knew what to expect, but now I just trust people are following the rules.
While a lot of 2014-now cards are stronger than 2004-2013, the most powerful cards in Commander are the ones from earlier than 2004 (Necropotence, Force of Will, Rhystic Study, ...) I think powercreep isn't that big of a problem with the most broken cards in the format never changing. Cards like Dockside and Smothering Tithe are exceptions, not the rule
What about massacre girl, damn, meathook massacre?
How the hell cyclonic rift wasn't good? I had won soo many games with my monoblue devotion deck with cyclonic!!!
A BUNCH of research? Let's go NERDS
Some of these categories felt unfair b/c of the sheer volume of new cards in the last decade of fire design...there are ~double the amount of cards printed lately than previous decade. Comparing the first decade would be a an interesting future video. The age of "oops too good" really set the ceiling for power creep (allegedly)
I tried a game vs one of the new commanders in Murder at Karlov Manor, and yeh.
5 mana 5/5 with trample vigilance ward 3. Combat gives counters on all creatures. AND card draw....
was pact of negation not between 04 and 13?
That one is suprisingly old
i dont see power creep as "bad" . it makes sense that the game needs to evolve and grow as time goes on. it keeps it exciting.
Considering Wotc started designing cards for Commander in 2011, I fail to see how one can discuss "Commander power creep" from 2004. At most, we're talking about "Magic Power Creep".
Kindred?
Kind of funny the best card draw of 2014-now is colorless, white and red
In short: yes, yes it is bad
In more detail: the main problem is the enablers are too strong, while the finishers get cheaper every year. Besides all that practically every set brings a new infinite combo.
Just wanna point out that half the talismans were originally released in mirrodin
i was surprised to see Ragavan wasn't in the this video
That's because the card is kinda butts in edh especially casual edh were creatures are alot more prevalent
I agree with everything except token maker's mot going to old has better token makers which would make the entire thing tied.
Yes. I might take a 10y break and have some fun later
Nature´s Lore and Three visits?
Y’all are sleeping on bounce lands! They are lands that say draw a card. Throw in amulet of vigor, or additional land drops. Now you cooking!
bouncelands enter the battlefield tapped and open you up to huge blowouts from targeted removal. amulet of vigor is not worth a slot in commander and extra land plays are powerful on their own. they are not good
@@yojamjam Na, bounce lands are great. They make your MDFC and Channel Lands even more flexible. Huge blow out from targeted removal? Its still 1 land, you would play the one you bounced back... its a 1 for 1, not a blow out.
Bounce lands are completely unplayable. Your deck is worse for having them. Not even a argument, it's objective fact. They are hot fucking garbage.
This was a very interesting exercise. Let's see how ridiculous things are in another 10 years.
Natures claim is still very good. 4 life in commander is nothing. It can be taken away easily.
Idk abt allat but one of my decks can make infinite draw and mana out of command sphere
The disrespect for bounce lands! Bounce lands effectively draw you a card. Especially now with mdfcs and channel lands
Bounce lands are straight up unplayable. They are absolute hot garbage.
I think it's hard to compare due to color pie
What's your favorite metal band Mia? 😊
Did the other guy leave this channel?
yes, he did a while ago. he started his own channel
Absolute missed winds of abandon
Land tutors - Titania’s command is a great option from the new decade. I put it in a couple decks just cause it’s a $0.30 unconditional land tutor, but I’ve chosen to keep it in as I’ve optimized those decks just because it always performs.
I usually just get Nykthos and Field of the Dead + hate a graveyard or make some bears or buff your team.
I cracked two Orcish Bowmasters and one went immediately into my Nekusar Wheels deck, but I still haven’t figured out a good home for the other one. I might put it into my Sméagol deck, primarily for the flavor win. 😊
Oh yeah. It's that bad. I don't even need to watch the video to say that.
I was strangely disappointed in this video, which never happens with NN. The research just wasn’t there. For example, in the ramp category, they pick old ramp citing Cultivate and Kodama’s Reach-2 power creep cards that are better now: Entish Restoration (2023) and Nissa’s Pilgrimage (2016).
No. If anything they over corrected after the first few sets.
You realy should mention that you exclude the super old cards in te beginning.
They literally show on screen that they take 2004 cards onwards.
@@Depp0vom0Dienst they still talked about it mid video so I just think it makes more sense at the start, also i mostly just listen not watch
@@Shimatzu95 yeah, that seems fair. sorry I bothered you!
why would someone compare cards with differente mana colors to identify power creep?
you forgot birds of paradise in dorks
BoP is way too old to be considered in this video. The categories are 2004-2013 and 2014-2024.
@@davidbass4834 right i forgot about that part
Hot take, jeweled lotus is a bad card.
Yes. Yes it is