Is Japan slowly killing western-style saws?
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- Опубликовано: 20 сен 2024
- Did the Japanese get it right? Or did they get it backwards?
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*Tools used in this video:*
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-Kataba (finish cuts, flush cuts): lddy.no/1447e
-Dozuki (ultra-fine cuts and joinery): lddy.no/1cd7y
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-Digital Caliper: amzn.to/384H1Or
-Marking Gauge: lddy.no/10muz
-Marking knife: lddy.no/10mv0
-Narex Chisels: lddy.no/sqm3
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-Gent Saw: lddy.no/ss2x
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-Scroll Saw: amzn.to/3gq9qDc
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Please do a follow up on cutting techniques using these saws. I for one would find it very valuable.
James,
I wonder, do some people just like the handle on a western saw? Although I've never tried a japanese saw, the handle always looks very awkward. Why not make a western style saw with the teeth cut for the pull stroke?
I've never seen this. Could it work, or not?
Eric Schnittker, St. Louis
Hearing ryoba the first time, I thought that might have been a mispronunciation of one of the tool brands carried at Home Depot - Ryobi.
Great video. A proper tecchnique use follow up would be great. Keep up the good work
I would like a pull saw with a western handle.
As an owner of both Japanese saws and Japanese chisels more info on Japanese tools and techniques would be great. Thanks again for the content, some of the best wood working tips on the internet.
Intriguing. I'd love to see a video on Japenese chisels. Haven't seen much about them. I'm sold on Japanese saws, though.
I second this motion
If you're used to using a Western saw, and are transitioning to a Japanese-style saw, then positioning of the non-dominant hand when holding down pieces being sawn, usually on a saw-horse or a bench, might present more possibility of a cut - because of the direction of the teeth. A guy told me he'd cut deep into his thumb because of the unfamiliar style. Of course, this is about taking care when using any sharp tool (or maybe a blunter tool, which takes the line of least resistance).
I’d be interested in a video on the Japanese chisels also.
Why don’t you make some videos?
Push saws never made any sense to me, and I couldn't take them seriously even as a kid. I remember deciding to myself that I'd invent the pull saw when I grew up, turns out that was the first type of saw!
Had a similar experience. Push saws make no sense to me
Push saws are safer, as you're not cutting towards yourself--pull saws allow for a more natural use of human arm strength, which typically results in reduced muscle stress and finer motor skill in the movement.
Push saws allow you to use more power on a cut and get through the material much faster, allthough i would argue that, controll and accuracy of these saws are not very reliable if you are chasing millimeters!
@@rockmcdwayne1710 I feel like in reality for newer users especially you slow down with push because you can’t cut straight
@@luke7503 Try sawing through thick material like a log with pulling motion. Pushing gives a lot more power hence it cuts much deeper with each stroke. Allthough, in modern days, we usually do these kind of tasks with power tools or chainsaws.
That being said, i think thats where the push types of saws originate. A lot of logging and ship building was done in western world!
A video on Japanese chisels would be great. While the differences in their saws and planes are apparent, its not immediately clear how their chisels differ.
The best j. chisels are laminated, a thin harder piece of steel fire welded to a larger softer iron socket. We can get Mr S. Nubs to explain better. Old plane blades and chisels made in Sheffield, also had a laminated cutting edge before steel was mass produced
Obviously, it's just like the saws: Japanese chisels cut on the pull, rather than the push.
I'd also love a video on Japanese planes
@@ibalrog what ?
You are joking, surely !
@@ibalrog 😂😂😂
I worked in trim carpentry for nearly 40 years, and whenever someone borrowed my coping saw for whatever reason, I'd get crap because the blade was 'backwards'. For quite a while I was confused, then noticed that they used the coping saw with their hand, and the saw handle above the work, and I always cut my copes with my hand/saw handle under the work. It gave me a smoother, and more accurate cut that went faster because I didn't have to look around my hand to see what I was doing. It was about 4 months later that everyone I worked with had their blades installed 'backwards'
I am in trim carpentry now, and that is how I do it. I want to see my cut, not my hand.
@@thomaslee4114 I am a trim carpenter, and have been for 35 years. I tried it that way many years ago, and found that I am much more efficient coping on the push stroke. However, I rarely cope with my material laying flat. To each their own.
The beauty of your technique is that I find following the cut line with a pull stroke is complicated by the saw dust piling up in front of the blade obscuring the cut line. Pulling from below the work and steering from the "push " side above is the best of both worlds!.
James, I agree with all your recommendations and that there's a need for both styles in most shops... But I feel like you missed the biggest difference between push and pull dynamics. I find the physics of a pull saw makes cutting easier for any work that I'm doing at chest-level or higher. Push saws are way better and easier to work with at below waist level, like if you're doing rough cuts bracing a board with your knee or hand on a short bench. So the position you like to do your work in plays a HUGE role in which saw you'd choose.
Agreed
He explained it in great detail starting at 1:30. You're just saying it tends to be easier to cut through material if you use the style of saw that allows gravity to assist in the through-cut motion vs the back-cut. That's mostly anecdotal based on your personal sawing preferences. Don't you think the reason you put a piece of wood on a short bench to hold down with your knee is because you plan on grabbing a Western panel saw to plow through a rough cut? If all you had was an Eastern pull saw then you probably wouldn't set up like that. You're matching the job to the tool vs matching the tool to the job.
Even though he didn't specifically say it, the assumption throughout this video is: stock is clamped in a vise and being cut at waist-height, usually while following a line. He DID use words such as "straight" "square" "precision" "easier to guide" and "better feedback." For jobs where those things are important, Eastern (Japanese) saws are simply better in almost every regard.
I agree. One addition: For sawing with Japanese saws below you: Try standing on the workpiece. With a larger Ryoba (at least 240) it works quite well for ripcuts and also for some crosscuts. Don't fall or saw into your toes though...
@@G0F15H No, there's more to it, like western saws give more control if you need to change or adjust the cut but to use that control requires more skill. While eastern saws will more easily follow the line and require less skill to get started, just harder to fix if you mess up the start of the cut.
For rough cutting, western saws can be faster and there's more examples of saws that can take advantage of 2 or more people working together for logging, etc.
Differences in position also denotes differences in types of woodworking, what size materials will be most likely utilized, what kind of holding systems are used, etc. So what works best can depend on a variety of factors that shouldn't be glossed over to just one is better than the other when that depends...
This was a basic overview of eastern saws but the actual comparison between them and western saws are more complicated and would require a much lengthier discussion to cover it all.
Traditionally nokogiri are used with material on low saw horses. So you're standing above using your foot to hold material down.
I appreciate the free masterclasses on woodworking you have been giving lately. Thank you.
Dang James,
You've been cranking out high quality vids like a machine in the past few weeks/ months.
Even if a few are re-takes on older videos it really drives home the quality of your channel content.
Thanks, it re-lights the passion i seem to have lost over the past few years.
I actually like the re-takes, it's cool to see how much you've learned even though past / young you knew more than I'll ever know
I always thought cutting in the push stroke was strange and challenging. Eager to try out a recently bought pull saw. Thanks for all the detailed info.
Hey there! I'm 24 and have been making mistakes (learning) in my small shop for around 5 years now. Your channel was one of the first I ever encountered when starting my journey and has been where I have learned at LEAST 90% of my still limited knowledge.
While these videos may not have the flashiest thumbnails or follow the "Woodworking RUclips Trends" I've found myself consistently coming back for your ability to give a comprehensive No B.S. explanation on whatever the topic is. Much thanks to you and your team for giving me the knowledge and confidence to pursue this amazing craft at such an early age, I'm so glad I did.
My first encounter with a japanese saw was 56 years ago when my dad got orders to Atsugi Naval Air Station in Atsugi Japan. The japanese did not use power tools to construct houses back then, only manual tools and their carpentry skills were second to none. I remember being amazed at the accuracy of house construction using manual tools. They used the old 'Egg Beater' drills as well. The pull saws are my saw of choice now, I have several. Great video.
Second to none if you're American and that's all you compare with. First of all japanese house production was seriously slow and ineffective, athe joinery may be fine, but the end result still is a drafty cold uncomfortable house. Japanese house building is NOTHING to envy.. BRrrrrrr-....
From the very first time my dad put a saw in my hand when I was 4, the push stroke has made zero sense to me. The blade bends if it binds, which makes the binding worse. It just seemed so obvious to me, even then, that the saw should cut on the PULL.
Yep. Western saws = pushing a rope. While I grew up with them (as my dad and granddad also did), now I know better. :)
LOL I always thought it was just me figuring tools are made for men with higher grip strength and upper body strength. So I’m not the only one “push saws” made no sense to. Nice to know!
My early frustrations with push-stroke American saws pushed [pun intended] me toward power tools instead of learning to use hand tools. Now nearing 70, I wish I had a lifetime of hand-tool skills built up, but I don't. 😞
I think the trick is that push saws are only intended to work a narrow bit of the wood at once. It's worth noting that in the old manual sawmills, _they did not use push saws,_ but instead old-timey two-person saws- and those saws, in turn, were _pull_ saws (just pulled from _each_ side instead of only one side) instead of push saws.
@@karenmitchell6814 When I was 7 or 8 years old, I had a much easier time with a bow saw for big cuts and a hack saw (literally a metal hacksaw, sometimes with the blade reversed) or keyhole saw for fine cuts. I couldn't use the regular saw... always thought it wasn't "good enough", needed sharpening, wrong TPI for the wood, I was not strong enough, etc. Of course I was little, so I wasn't strong enough for the inability to rip cut with a bow saw to matter. Only trouble was the blade would "dance" and... I'd need bandaids. (and I still hate my regular saw... I guess I don't know why I even use it)
My father was in the USAF and in 1959, when I was 8 years old, we lived in Japan for several years. I remember using a Ryoba saw working with my dad on projects. Years later, I purchased a Western type saw from Sears as part of my first set of tools. I hated the Western style saw, it was so much harder to control than the pull type Eastern saws I grew up with. When I found Eastern type saws in the mid 1980s, I purchased several and have used them for years. Great job on this video, and yes please add to it with the other Eastern tools you talked about.
Off topic, but you didn't happen to go to Yoyogi School in Washington Heights in Tokyo, did you? I was there in eighth grade in 1958. :>)
@@tomhargreaves8820 Tom.
I went to the 2nd grade at Johnson air base in 1959 and 3rd and ½ of 4th grade at Tachikawa AFB. We moved to Hickam AFB Hawaii in 1962. I loved living in Japan and have great memories of those early years. Thanks for asking.
Keith
I knew that I wanted a ryoba saw, but I simply didn't realise that there are more dedicated saw types available, I want a whole set of Japanese saws to add to my western saws. I'll add them one saw at a time though, on a needs basis, naturally :)
Thank you James.
In my late sixties and after 40+ years of woodworking, I bought and used some Japanese saws for the first time in my life and have been kicking myself for not having done so decades earlier. Far less effort, far more accurate and just a pleasure to use. Once you get the hang of watching the reflection in the blade to stay aligned, it's hard to go wrong.
On the con side, to the point of "some people prefer the pistol grip of western saws"- I live in Japan, there are plenty of pistol grip style Japanese saws over here. The one I use is in the "Gun Fighter" line. I've got a few others too. Better for rough cuts but a straight handle is much better for detail work (personal preference)
Thanks for this.
@@mikecurtin9831 Sure thing!
Pistol grip is better for push saws due to wrist strength. It would work fine for pull saws too but not needed.
Why do you call yourself “sensei”? If you live in Japan, you know that’s not right.
@@jeremysullivan1706 Because RUclips wouldn't let me make an account without putting in a surname and it's what everyone calls me over here- not what I call myself. Feel free to doubt me living here though, couldn't care less.
I like it when you start explaining from a historical perspective, definitely helps a better understanding of the concept.
I was using only Ryoba but now I'll have 2 more :) Thanks
OMG, please do one on Japanese chisels (and cuts with the Japanese saws too, of course). I've been so curious about them, but haven't found a lot of information about about how they compare to western chisels.
What about the planes?
@@RjWolf3000 just turn yours up side down and it becomes a pulling one.
Would be great to highlight the differences between Western and Japanese WORKHOLDING and benches! So far as I've seen, the saws of each type are part of different systems! Both can produce incredible work! 👍
The Japanese pull saw was a life saver when I built a boat. A boat is the opposite of a cabinet. Nothing is square, nothing is plumb and a bevel is more vital than a square. Being able to site the line on two sides of a 'non square' piece of wood and making a cut that fit perfectly was magic for me. I love the pull saw but have never tried the Japanese chisels. None of my boat-building mentors used them so why would I? Looking forward to you proving that my mentors were not sufficiently open minded.
I know exactly what you are talking about and experienced exactly the same conclusions 👍. My first Japanese saw was a cheap one from Lowe’s. It still works great and I can’t imagine one of those more expensive Japanese saws working any better.
The educational content on this channel is head and shoulders above most others. So well laid out and easy to absorb. Thank you.
Great, informative post. Good analogies and descriptions. Thanks again Professor Nubs.
As a teenager in woodworking class: a newb. I definitely was put off by the tendency of saws to bend when pushing them. I was so put off by this for fear of my safety and such that I consider it a reason that I never pursued it further.
Gotta face your fears. Doing something or not doing something simply because of fear is not a good reason.
@@jelianmontgomery5679 Don't forget that fear is a self-defense mechanism tho
For example: My house starts burning, i go out but i realize i've forgotten a pillow that i enjoyed sleeping on, fear would be whats stopping me from going in.
Kind of the same situation here, being scared that a blade which keeps bending will break and fly off to somewhere or hit you seems pretty normal to me
@@jelianmontgomery5679 You only have ten fingers. :P
I have long wondered about the different Japanese saws and this tutorial was spot-on! I'd love to see some more in-depth treatment for using these. Thanks!
@@daveklein2826 true, but not all video creators are as good as James at giving concise instructions. Sometimes I watch a video about something, but then I'm more confused. Vickie
I've been using Silky japanese saws for camping/outdoor work and they are SO much nicer then anything I can find in the local stores. The cut on the pull back is very nice.
A distinct advantage of the pull saws from Japan is that you can and should use the reflections in the saw of the stock being cut. These reflections precisely identify orientation between the saw and the stock in two dimensions as the cut proceeds.
Valid comment but I have found that there are some occasions (eg some oblique cuts) where the reflection can be a distraction.
Beautiful!
Let us not leave out the hybrids.. like Shark Corp's pullsaw that has a pistol-style grip and replaceable blades! A great workhorse at about $27. A beginner could have the handle and three different blades for under $100.
I personally like the Vaughan brand japanese style saws for the same reason
Thanks James. As a rookie woodworker I had no idea what kind of saw I needed and what kind that I wanted. I do like the idea of learning how to cut dovetails. This video was very helpful in giving me more information about what I need and or want. Thanks for all that you do.
I would be really interested in a follow up video on how to cut with the pull saws. I just recently got my 7” Dozuki and I think I have bad form because I did not get a straight cut went testing out some dovetails. Thanks for all the great content!
Practically everybody with first Japanese saw needs do one thing: learn how do it. It's hard to unlearn the habit of pushing on a saw ... :)
What helped me was imaging the strike line on my board continuing back into space and my hand pulling along it. A good way to practice it to strike a line across something like a 1x4, clamping another board hard to that line and just concentrate on keeping the saw moving along and perpendicular to that guide. After a while it becomes second nature.
The rear wheel drive/front wheel drive comparison alone explains the whole difference for me. Thank you!
I liked this one, James. I like my Japanese saws. The dovetail one cuts an amazingly thin kerf, so thin the coping saw I use to cut out the dovetail bottoms is too thick. My panel saws belonged to my grandfather and my wife's grandfather so I enjoy using them too.
I grew up using push saws and continued using them through my 20's. In my early 30's, 20+ years ago, I purchased my first Japanese saws during a visit to Japan. They were high-end and I ruined a couple early on from kinking getting used to the Pull vs. Push dynamic. But now they are all I use. I would suggest to anyone that started out using Western Saws and wanting to try Japanese saws to purchase a Ryoba in the $30 range. This way when you ruin it, and you will, it's not a big blow. Kakuri tools is a well establish Japanese tool maker with offering in the this price range. My tips; Start slow, relax and don't force you cuts.
I have almost entirely switched to Japanese style pull saws. Mostly for their accuracy, but also the kerf size and I just find them easier to use.
I don't necessarily find them easier to use but I do have a couple of the folding Suizan ones, really convenient if space is tight or you're on the move / traveling a lot.
Excellent. While giving us an introduction to Japanese styles of sawa, you have given us a refresher on other saws. By the way, I appreciate that you have revisited other subjects to share insights from what you learned. -- Each tool for its own best function.
Excellent and informative video. I remember when choosing my Japanese style saws being confused by the names, teeth counts and sizes and wondering what the differences were, wish I had had this video back then! Would love to see a follow up with tips and tricks and any other comparaisons videos.
I got a Ryoba for christmas and I bloody love it. I hadn't intended to be using it just yet (weather is still pretty wintery here so not had a chance to start any woodwork-builds this year) but I discovered just adfter Christmas that I had an urgent need to rebuild my bathroom (water damage meant I had to rip out and rebuild everything) and my new Ryoba was absolutely brilliant. While I used powertools for most of the big cuts, it was superb for smaller jobs. I laid 5mm plywood on the floor to go under the new vinyl and it was damn-near perfect for cutting around door-frames and pipes.
There is only one disadvantage that I found - because it cuts on the pull, you have to hold your wood down much more firmly than you do with a western saw. I'm used to being able to place my wood on a stool, kneel on it, and crack on with sawing, but with the Ryoba, it would often catch on the wood slightly on the return-stroke, making it flap against the stool under my knee. I could clamp it down (and it did do this for more precise show-piece work, such as side-panels for cabinets), but it's an extra step that slows you down a bit. However, the precision of the cut (even from the "rougher" end of the Japanese Saw Spectrum) was worth the effort.
I would recommend one to anyone, and I'll definitely expand my Japanese saw collection in the future - I suspect the only Western saws I'll buy will be the £5 disposable building-site ones that I'll use for only cutting 2x4s and pallets to very rough size (and maybe the odd tree-branch)
Love to see a discussion about how to make specific cuts for us newbies
Just an elderly knuckelhead here, who loves handsaws. You did an excellent job in 13 min. with regard to the title of the video. Content and videography - congrats. I remember dropping out of college in 1980 and selling my car to buy woodworking tools. I bought a ryoba 270 mm "Tama Kitsune" brand, or "Jade Fox" for $27.00 - just saw the receipt the other day. It did not cut straight. I wanted to make a rip cut while working at a furniture repair shoppe, and the Disston rip saw wouldn't cut straight either. Cut well shy of the line, and chiseled the rest. When a Rosewood chair came in months later, I finally shelled out $125 for a weekend workshop at "The Lutherier" in Saugerties NY. I got a dozuki made by Shindo. Robert Meadow had setup and sharpened --- "Hon Metate" which is what happens in Japan when you buy a saw. That way, it's custom done, and you take it back to the same dealer when it's dull, or rather _not sharp_ . Then he will use the same brand of file, which is easier than changing to another file brand. Also, several months later, he taught me how to make the blade flat and straight and non twisted, how to set teeth, and I got eventually more saws ect. Once I had the Disston straight, flat, set, and sharp, It cut great, and could get in some places a ryoba or kataba couldn't.
Point being Japanese, American, German, English, and Chinese saws all are a joy to use --- if they are sharp and flat and evenly set. And a real frustrating job if not.
That's what they all have in common, and here's the thing --- I went for 6 years thinking "I must be doing something wrong with my arm, or body, it don't work because no one ever taught me how to saw"
No, as it turned out, the rip Disston was sharp, but it had a slight curve to the blade. same with the Tama Kitsune, except it also had some cup. Also at that time, disposable blades from Japan were not all flat. Some fit loose in the handle. They are better now, so I'm not dissing them, but a real Shindo or Chuyemon, or Miyano Tetsunoke, or Mitsukawa, or even Nakaya leave them in the dust --- after Hon Metate. OTOH, good luck finding good files.
Why?, because disposable blade saws did kill the traditional saw makers, and the metate, and the file makers. I guess for most people Western technology is -- certainly from the corporate thought process and value system -- far superior to the traditional artisans aesthetics.
Personally, I'm glad I spent my time here on Earth questing for Beauty, Truth, and Human scale goals. To all you knuckleheads who love your handtools and working with woods -- which is the great Master to those who want to learn from it --- 3 cheers ! Give it your full focus and attention, and you might see it is full of Ki, it is not just dead material, you might open your heart to it and have it opened even more.
The first saw I bought myself was a Japanese ryoba and I have loved it. With the saw being guided by the thinner kerf it's very difficult if not impossible to try and make small adjustments to your cut line as you work down a long rip cut which I would imagine would be atleast vaguely possible with a western style panel saw. I would be very interested to see a video on both joinery with the Japanese style saws and Japanese style chisels. I am looking to invest in some nicer chisels in the future and don't really know anything about the Japanese style. So that video would be very informative and helpful. Thank you
Ryoba! Man, the whole time I was watching the video, I was thinking about how "raioba" could possibly mean "two sided"
Ryouba makes a lot more sense to me. Ryou meaning "both" and "ba" for "edge". (The final u is often omitted. It makes the o longer, there is no u sound.)
But yeah, the pronunciation was throwing me off massively. "Ryou" is actually a single syllable. I don't think it's particularly hard to pronounce, but I guess you would never guess the pronunciation correctly if you only saw it written.
I've been using Japanese tools since the 80s. Both types, Eastern & Western have their place in any quality workshop. You never know what your next project might need. Learn to use both, and go ambidextrous too. Having a boat building background, we used to have to switch around.
As a counter example (personal experience, YMMV): I've been convinced by those arguments several years ago and got a set of those 3 saws. They are my main saws but I've been struggling. Making straight cuts has been rather difficult, so is correcting the cut when it veers off course. The line is hard to see because it's often covered with saw dust, and the cutting position can be awkward, requiring you to seriously rethink how you position your body and how you clamp your work piece. Not to mention rip cuts are pretty tiring with a ryoba, as the short length doesn't allow you the range of motion a panel saw does.
I'm now in the process of getting equivalent western saws to try and see what I'm doing wrong.
Have you looked into combining the Paul Sellers "knife wall" techniques with your saws? Set up the precision cut guides with cutting gauges and marking knives, then allow the saws to do what they do, and "follow the path of least resistance".
Also, check out how Wood By Wright how to start cuts across/along marked faces (whether knife walls or pencil marks), before allowing the saw to descend into the meat of the cut.
Please do more content with the Japanese tools! This is the best comparison of Japanese and Western style tools I've ever seen. No nonsense, just the facts.
I would appreciate videos on both the saw technique and a similar comparison video for eastern vs western chisels.
I've had these for so many years and continue to restock them. Good review
Love my Japanese saws but as you can always learn more about the tools you own I would be very interested in tips & techniques vids. Thank you for your great work
A follow-up on Japanese tools, and maybe even a starter video on Japanese joinery, would be great. Thanks for everything to date.
When I started out as a carpenter in the 1980s in Greece all the saws available in the small village where I lived were pull saws with a pistol grip, blade about 350mm x 80mm but not as thin as Japanese saws. Some of them were made by peugot in France.
I wonder if they could be obtained in the US. It seems like there are not a lot of options of that sort here. I like the idea of a different style of pull saw in that context.
Hiya Stumpy, yes please on the "More Japanese tool videos, please." This video was great as always, informative but not pushy, in fact, perfect balance. thank you. Stay safe, Steve...
Great video as always! I have a few Japanese saws and I love them, I only wish I opted for a bigger ryoba, mine is about 7.5”. I would love to see a video about Japanese chisels and planes!
I learnt a bit of jewellery and silversmithing and we were taught to cut on the pull stroke for the exact reasons you state here - really fine control and feel.
Fantastic info, James! Thanks a bunch! 😃
I have issues with both my shoulders, I had to do years of physiotherapy. So I basically can't use a western saw without getting strong pain... But with Japanese saws? I barely feel it. It's truly amazing.
I never tried Japanese hand planes... They seem weird... But I would love to try as well. Who knows, right? 😊
Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
Excellent video as always. I work at our local Woodcraft and always had some kind of trouble with them, mainly because the only think you can read on them is the length of the blade/number of teeth. It'd be very interesting to see a video about Japanese chisels and setting the ring on the handle.
I would love to see more videos on japanese saws, chisels, and other less common eastern style tools. I mostly use power tools but have a few japanese saws and a set of chisels that I really like. The japanese saws are affordable and to me, much easier to use than western saws. I picked up a lee valley rip saw recently for about a hundred bucks, with the assumption that this would be better quality thant I am used to as I had only used cheap western saws in the past, but found it harder to use than my japanese saws which cost about 30 bucks. Specifically, with the lee valley saw it is hard to get a cut started (while very easily with my japanese saws) and even harder to get started on a precise line. Though it does cut significantly faster - when it gets going of course. That's not to say the lee valley is a bad saw - the build quality is better and I probably just need more time with it. But the japanese saws cut more accurately and with less effort.
Wow. Lightglobe moment. This makes perfect sense to me. Thank you.
I found your channel as a YT suggestion, but am now a subscriber.
I keep finding myself trying to use my saws on the pull. I find it more natural, especially when starting a cut before the wood is working with me. I may have to give Japanese saws a try. More detailed videos would definitely be helpful for that.
Are there also alternate metal saws in Japan? (I do more metalwork than wood. The wood is mostly for knife handles and the like.)
Just bought a couple Japanese saws for the first time and I love them. Once I learned the technique, I was making very precise cuts that looked much better than I could have done with one of my western saws.
I'd love to see one on japanese chisels and as always great info.
Wow, lots of information. Gonna have to watch again. Especially your last few minutes on what saw for what cut and number of teeth, etc. Thanks. Great video
Ever since I was a kid and first used a push saw, I thought it was an uncomfortable, inefficient, unwieldy device. The japanese style pull saws with the in-line handle (vs the perpendicular grip of the push saw ) just seems more intuitive and efficient to me.
Thank you for the excellent description describing the difference between the different saw types.
would it be possible to see a comparison test between the different types of saw. Directly comparing the speed, precision, accuracy and quality of the cut made?
I’d say that comes down to the saw and he user. You can compare a less expensive saw to, say a BadAxe saw and it’s obvious which one is better. Japanese saws that are widely available are going to be from the same companies and there isn’t much comparison there. Price and presence and time on them.
@@FearsomeWarrior Yes, that's very true, but there are ways to minimise user bias, so that it becomes more of a straight test between saws. And obviously there are so many variables with different brands, makes, models, of saws, even different batches and down to the individual saw being slightly different to the single atom (being a n exaggeration). However I still believe it would be interesting for James to compare his own saws, so he gets a fair representation of the saws he uses. Furthermore sometimes it is also good to include user bias, so it can further compare which is better for the individual person. There are obviously pros and cons to testing, but overall the video idea is still interesting.
I had been considering buying a Ryoba for a while; this video helped me decide. I ordered one. Thank you!
I still remember very well my confusion when first trying a Japanese saw. Now I love them for the exact reasons James explained. I even cut PVC cable trunks with them due to the much cleaner results.
thanks for the subtitles in the videos. Your lessons are very important. Well done
Dozuki is definitely my favourite. And I’d love to see a video on Japanese planes. I’m sure I watched a video a while about about traditional Japanese planes having a hard body and a soft wedge or vice versa. I don’t mean new traditional style. I’m referring to planes from years ago. Is this a thing or am I imagining it?
Coming back to woodwork after a very long absence I had problems with cutting straight and the blade jamming using my old western style saws. It took me a while to work out that it was an old injury which caused my wrist to flex and twist the blade on the forward stroke. Cutting on the pull stroke using a Japanese saw actually pulls my wrist into line and keeps my cuts straight.
My man! Obviously you know woodworking; but not every master woodworker is also a good teacher.
You are both, and as a novice I REALLY appreciate your videos. Please keep them coming.
While this does cover lots of great information I do want to put a counterpoint to some opinions. "Ease of Use" is much easier with western because: body mechanics of use, hand fatigue from grip needed with straight handle (ergonomics), speed of cut (benefit of body mechanics), and steerability mid cut (correcting to the line) being a few. Most of this comes from push saws were used more with standing benches and pulls with sitting benches so the body is used differently hence the wider variety of lengths in push saws as some use only the arm others use the whole body. One thing not mentioned about the "hardened teeth" is that in some of the American native species (red and white oak come to mind) the teeth can snap in the board as they go through open cells (pores). This is a modern attribute/detraction as teeth weren't always hardened so it wasn't a problem when they would cut stuff like teak. While loosing a tooth or ten isn't a big deal to the performance of the saw the metal shards left in board can wreak havoc later down the road.
A counter counterpoint; the pull saws require much less effort to use as compared to the western saw, so you don't need to get your whole body into it. Most of the time when I'm using a pull saw, I only hold it with a couple fingers and let it flow. There's no need to grip it and force it through a cut.
@@jeffh4505 we’ll disagree on this one. I saw all day with traditional. Hands cramp after an hour with straight handles.
The tendency to brake teeth was mentioned among the cons. As for comfort, it depends on what you are used to. We develop muscles based on what we do the most. I have experienced this many times in life, being able to easily do something a much larger person struggled with, and vise-versa. If you use Western saws every day, you will find them more comfortable. There is no right or wrong answer here.
@@StumpyNubs It's all opinion. As said, no right or wrong just thought a counterpoint was valid. I started with pull saws and used them for years. I find you have to grip straight handles (even push) but pistol grips "sit" with very little grip required hence no carpal tunnel issues for me with them. Sorry, I watched whole video while packing and must of missed the breakage part.
@@wortheffort No problem :)
I got a japanese saw for christmas, and I can't BELIEVE how much easier it is to do dovetails. you can cut dovetails so clean you done even need to do much chisel work.
Are there any pistol-grip style Japanese saws? That seems like it would sell well in America, and it might be more comfortable than the straight handle. But I’m not sure if it would affect precision 🤔
It might be harder to apply force with a pistol grip. A straight handle allows you to push downward while pulling without being awkward.
i dont know if it would be particularly comfortable or precise to cut on the pull with a pistol grip, it seems much more ergonomic for pushing. but i could be wrong, i dont really know.
The first pull saw I ever used had a pistol grip. It was made by Tajima, a JPR300/K1 I believe. Very comfortable to use for me, no problems to adapt to the different motion.
@@m.a.6478 Ok, knowing that, I'm betting it's because the blades are disposable. making them thick(tall?) Enough for a pistol grip is a waste of steel.
Push vs Pull - interesting! Didn notice that before. And now I am doubly amazed realizing that a lot of circular cutting tools like band saw, table saw, jig saw, miter saw - all of them cut in the pull direction.
I really appreciate your intro to Japanese saws - like a great many, I had heard of them, but was thoroughly unfamiliar with them. A vid on cuts would be a great follow up. And I had never heard of Japanese chisels! I’m keen to hear what you have to say about them, too!
I started using saws and knives from Japan woodworker about 35 years ago. I just love them. I will sometime remove a sawblade from the handle and spine to do a perfect level cut, since these saw typical don't have a curf. Great designing, and built to last.
Yes, please do a video about Japanese saws and chisels. I have the double edged version and love it. I bought it for doing flush cuts but ended up using it for all of my hand-sawing. I didn’t know there was other versions of the saws until now. I have never heard of Japanese chisels so I would love to see that video too.
I'm not a regular woodworker... more a DIYer. I'd love to know what my old woodwork teacher would have thought about Japanese saws. In spite of all his attempts I really found making straight cuts difficult. Okay I needed much more practise...Fifteen years ago someone bought me a set of three different Japanese saws and lo and behold....my sawing has improved.... after 65 years.
Thanks for all the info.
Yes, please do more on this subject. There are some definite advantages to the Asian saws, but I know little about the chisels and planes.
Hi James,
The comfort and fatigue advantage you mention is because the pull stroke uses the posterior chain, which means all the large muscles in your bank (lats and traps) and the biceps, while the push stroke uses the smaller chest muscles (pecs) and the triceps (which, while larger than the biceps, are mechanically disadvantaged by the structure of the elbow).
More on Japanese woodworking tools please! This channel is the best woodworking channel on the RUclips’s!
I really needed this, I keep seeing these saws on other channels and had no idea what they were about. Thank you.
Once again, you prove yourself to be great teacher: a lot of good information, comprehensively and objectively delivered, without unnecessary embellishment. You are our own Obi-Wan Kenobi.
I am a professional finish carpenter, as well as doing custom shop oriented wood working. On my site work, a good quality ryoba is my hand tool bag at all times. I reach for 5-10 times a day. It works quickly and accurately (in trim carpentry terms). I can have it out and the funny little notch I have to cut done and moved on before I could even get an equivalent tool out of the truck. Think notching door jambs around different floor heights. In the shop, I keep a higher quality ryoba and a very good quality dozuki. The dozuki is great for dovetails, with the one exception. For very hard woods with wild grain, the dozuki has a tendency to want to track with the grain. For those instances, I have the Lee Valley dovetail saw like in your video. Can't tell you how many old trim carpenter farts I have converted to the Japanese saw train. Once you let them try it, the next time you see them they will have one.
After watching this, I used my CHEAP Harbor Freight pull saw yesterday to notch some 1x4 pine for trimming around a beam in my new shed. WOW. That made the job easier, more accurate and left me with only a small portion to remove with my Multi-Tool.
I will have to invest in some higher quality saws for my shop - Thanks for all the tips & tricks!
When my snow gave me a Japanese style saw for Christmas 7 years ago I was not sure what to think. Now I have several and that first saw is worn out! Love them.
I bought a couple of rusty old Disston Western style saws because I needed the steel, cut one up and did what I had to do. Was struggling to cut a chunk of hardwood, tried the second Disston, cut through it like dream...best saw I've ever used.
Good video, James. I started with Japanese saws for the typical beginner reasons but stayed with them because the precision and ease of use. My one hold out is my large western rip saw which
I use for breaking down large stock. My next purchase will be a large ryoba which i expect to use for that purpose.
One advantage you did not mention for Japanese saws is for resawing. and cutting veneers. Forget the expense and setup and use of a bandsaw - a kataba or ryoba does a beautiful job and is a joy to use..
I don't really do woodworking but it's very enjoyable listening to someone who enjoys his craft so much
The first time I used a Japanese Pull Saw I couldn't believe how much easier it was to control the cut! I love 'em!
I ended up buying a cheap Japanese pull saw to cut baseboards for a home flooring job about 20 years ago. After realizing it was so much more comfortable and controllable I basically began using that style for all of the hand work. Great comparison!
I bought myself a ryoba for Christmas one year ahead of cutting big mortise and tenons for my workbench. It was super-accurate straight away, and the bonus was I didn’t pick up a circular saw for another year after that. By the time the circular saw is plugged in and straight edge aligned and offset, the ryoba has finished. AND it doesn’t have to stop at children's bedtimes…
I just ordered 2 saws with your links. I wanted the 3rd but it appears sold out at the moment. Thanks again..Very useful info.
You are making everything simple and easy to understand.
Another home run, James. You've packed more useful information about Japanese style saws into one video than I have ever seen in one place. While I have been using a Japanese saw for decades to flush trim plugs over countersunk screws, etc., I never had the big picture, which you presented. Many thanks.
At 10:06- I thought you were going to take a slice out of the top of your thumb joint! I love Japanese pull saws. Have used the double sided for cutting door trim before new flooring for years. 15 Years ago, I spent $270 for a Hayauchi ("Silky") extension saw. pruning saw. Wonderful tool! Crazy razor sharp blade that pull cuts better than any other hand pruning saw I have tried. They sell for around $350 now and are worth every penny. Blade is still razor sharp after years of use.
Any extra tips & trick on the Japanese saws would be extremely welcome, so here's one vote for that second video! Thanks for putting this out there.
I've used a ryoba saw for years for cutting balsa and basswood for model aircraft. The pull stroke makes starting the cut much less damaging in extremely soft woods like balsa and also reduces tear-out at the end of the cut. The thin kerf lessens waste and the sawdust is much finer.
58 year old cabinetmaker here... keep spreading that knowledge! Cheers!
In my limited forest management using only hand tools, I use a pull saw for cutting anything less than 3" or overhead, and use a big push saw to crosscut logs on a sawbuck.
I have never used or owned saws of any kind and yet I found this video thoroughly engrossing and interesting... thank you!
Dear James. I'm a low vision, currently I have only about 5% of my view left and still degrading and there's no cure yet. I also suffer from other nasty stuff and permanent depression. Yet I'm a happy family man and father of 2. I started woodworking as a full time job with the pandemic and your videos, your style, your professionalism, skills, attitude, humor and consistency had a huge impact on my confidence and ability to evolve in my woodworking journey and believe in my self despite the disabilities. I'll never thank you enough. If someday you visit my country please be my guest. Thank you James.
Thanks for the nice comment, and take care!
IDK why youtube recommended me this video seeing as I am not a woodworker and never had to search tools for it but I did watch the whole video out of curiosity. LOL. I guess I now know more about saws.
Thanks for explaining these saws! 65 years ago, when I lived in Japan, I watched Japanese carpenters use their pull saws with the work piece at all angles, above them, below them, and held with one hand while sawing with the other. It looked so much easier than the few times I'd tried using a Western saw. I wondered why we didn't use pull saws. I finally saw and bought one a few years ago here and found that it is everything I wondered about way back when. I'd love to discover their planes and chisels.
This is what I consider the greatest advantage of Japanese saws over their western counterparts. You can achieve amazing accuracy without even having a proper workbench - just using simple sawhorses and your body weight to firmly hold the workpiece.