I inherited my Japanese tools from my grandfather but didn't get into woodworking until after he passed so I have been learning to use them on my own. It is these simple suggestions that astound me because it improved the quality of my work to a degree I attributed only to getting better tools. The using 2 hands with a ryoba and extending your index finger down the handle of dovetail saw to lock your hand and reduce wander were such simple fixes that dramatically changed my work that I am watching how people hold tools and their postures a lot more.
The triangle concept as well. Cutting from the opposite side top down to the face side bottom creating a "triangle" then flipping the board and cutting a second triangle before cutting the remaining one in the middle can be used to make very accurate cuts.
As a kid, I got very frustrated not being able to saw a straight line. And there was nobody to teach me how. Now, as an old guy who is a beginning hybrid woodworker, I have found I can use a Japanese pull saw quite effectively. I was also able to show my younger brother how to cut a straight line, too. This video is spot on.
A monkey baby matures much faster than a human baby does. Ultimately the human baby will develop more though. That human baby will go on to do more sophisticated things. You get what I'm saying? You can monkey around with them Japanese saws. Full development takes longer but you have to be prepared to go that distance.
@@1pcfred I can't tell if you're disparaging Japanese Saws because they're easier to use, but aside from saws Japanese tools require a lot more setup and tuning than their western equivalents. If Lee Nielson and Veritas sold you a plane that required a full day to tune (Perhaps a few days as a beginner), and years to fully master, I think a lot of people would be up in arms.
@@HatsuruHitoYT Japanese saws are not easier for me to use. The straight handle does not work for me. Cutting on the pull stroke is basically wrong as far as I'm concerned too. Lie Nielsen and Veritas are never going to sell me any tools either. So I cannot speak to how those planes are as sold. I imagine they are probably not sold sharpened though. The end user would be expected to hone the iron. Flatten the back too. It might do something out of the box. But I doubt that something would be something I'd consider acceptable. Sharpening is something that can take some a while to fully master too. Sharpening doesn't have to be difficult. But many insist on making it difficult.
I've found the Japanese style saws to be generally easier on the body. My Dad was doing less and less woodworking because the accumulated damage of 80 years of hard work was making sawing downright painful and he didn't have the strength to hand or power saw much any longer. I loaned him my set of Japanese saws for a week after months of begging him to try them. I'm happy to say that he's doubled the amount of work he can do and his joints no longer hurt as much when he's done.
I've been doing serious woodworking for over 50 years and made a secure living doing it. I have both the western saws and 12 Japanese saws and use both depending on the sawing situation at the time. You're 100& correct on learning to use a saw for it's designed to do. I can cut dovetails and tenons with my western saws with ease, and I can cut dovetails and tenons with the Japanese saws with ease because I took the time to learn how to use them and which one is best for the project I'm working on. I can use a Japanese Kataba crosscut saw and crosscut through a board faster and straighter than with a skill saw. Practice, experience and what best works for you is the key to good sawing technics. Thanks for sharing your video and the effort it takes to make them.
@@ikust007 On site to me is on one of my benches. As I said in my comments, I use a saw that works best for me on a project, the same for my bench or carving chisels. I do reproduction furniture and pre 1860 cabinetry for clients on commission.
@@1pcfredI imagine it was probably more hyperbole but when you consider the additional time to set it up. If you're only making a cut or two pulling out power tools generally isn't worth while. Usually just grabbing a hand saws a lot faster.
I was quite experienced with western saws, no problem cutting a straight line. Bought one of the japanese for fine lines, and always went out. As soon as i saw the video, went out to the shop, tried the 2 handed stroke and it works like magic. Thanks for the tip!
Hey James, its great to see you covering Japanese tools as a Japanese woodworker. I use traditional, resharpenable, forged saws. I like these for a few reasons. Good saws made by masters can be very, very hard. Up to 63 or 64 HRC and have to be sharpened by specially made files. This means that they have incredible edge retention. I use exclusively hand tools and work most with rough lumber. I only sharpen my most used saw a couple times a year, (including rip and crosscut) I also like the design of the crosscut teeth (yokobiki). Due to their design they have much greater "fleem" and severe the wood fibers much more effectively. A bit of a pain to sharpen but the finish is incredible. I virtually never shoot my boards since the cut is so fine. Another perk of very hard saws is that they can be tensioned very tightly and become very stiff. This combined with a fine set means they can track beautifully, and very quickly. My favorite perk of a hard saw is the feedback. Since they are so hard, you can feel everything going under the teeth. You know very precisely what's happening under the saw. I can tell it's going off the line by feel. I also know when to add more pressure or less pressure. It is said a good saw will tell you before it breaks or snaps, giving you a moment to stop and reconsider your technique.
Great video James's, I Use both. I started using Japanese saws originally due to price. Yet once I purchased good western style Back saws (Dovetail, Carcass, Tenon) and invested in developing the skill. I now prefer to use western saws 95% of the time. I still use a 270 mm Ryoba to resaw thin stock sometimes to reduce waste, yet I find that a Japanese saw can very easily wander inside the cut when re-sawing. Scooping out the centre while staying in the kerf on both sides! A n Azebiki saw is very handy for cutting out timber in the centre of a board. Cheers David
I've had the pleasure of knowing Wilbur for about 20 (or more) years. He was always a font of information on Japanese tools. But I wasn't aware he was presenting at WWIA! Good for you Wilbur!!
Hey James, I'm almost a year into my (serious) woodworking journey and own and use both. I have owned a western crosscut saw for well over 40 years that I used for everything around the house. Until this year I didn't know why the teeth looked black and seemed to be less and less efficient. I needed to cut some small wood pieces about 2 years ago and bought a small Japanese saw and loved how well it cut. Of course it cut much better because it was better suited to the job and was much sharper! Now I own both and find, like you said, each kind does different jobs. Quite well too! I just bought a larger one and am loving that. Of course this was right after buying a Spear and Jackson cross cut saw that I also loved! I agree with you they are both great and I like one over the other only based on what I'm trying to accomplish. Thanks for a great video!
The spear and jackson is a great and affordable saw! Ive got a few myself. Id recommend to get another one like it and a saw file so you can file it into a rip saw as well. Good luck in your wppdworking!
I've been using primarily pull saws for the past year, while setting up a new workshop. One point I disagree with you is the issue of cutting speed. Thinner blade, less wood to remove per stroke, more cutting per energy expended. I've never seen a fair comparison of this aspect, though, and maybe I'm wrong. It's also true that a Western woodworker, at a Western bench, probably isn't using the optimum angle of attack to the wood, because as I understand it, Japanese saws are designed to be used by a standing worker with low worker-holding appliances. Good video, sir. And thanks for the link to Mr. Pan's site.
For joinery, I like both and will change when I start to get sore with one style. I'll be starting to do ripping soon, and am excited to see which i like better.
Cool video! I use japanese saws as a hobbyist working in my small apartment. They have served me well. The book Japanese Woodworking Tools by Toshio Odate is really cool for overview of the methodological and philosophical practice of woodworking in Japan. I would love to see what other distinctions exist around tools, methods, furniture, etc. around the world. On some recent trips to Mexico and Jamaica, I was surprised that most of the furniture i encountered was handmade. It wasn't the "finest" quality, but it was very cool to see there are still craftspeople building furniture out of wood instead of buying particle board trash.
For me, the ease of the Japanese saw was instrumental in getting me to want to keep going. Also starting out on a tight budget meant that I was either using a rusty old push saw that I didn't yet know how to tune up, or a nice new Japanese saw that just worked: It was a no brainer. Now, you and other proponents of western saws have shown me how they can work better and how I can tune them up when they're not, and will occasionally turn to a western saw, but I predominantly use Japanese saws with low work horses for easy breakdowns.
Hi, I use Japanese saws and find them very good to use. Very impressed with your Western saws and how you use them. A skill you have mastered very well. The one Japanese saw that surprised me has the teeth at the front of the saw going around a curve. With this feature I can cut along a straight line in the middle of a large sheet, Firstly going back and forth a short distance tilting the blade around the curve. In no time you cut through the sheet and then finish the cut normally leaving nothing but a straight cut line. I am starting to use this feature more often and find I can get less wastage when laying out parts on a large sheets. Always room for improvement and new ideas.
Whoa, the two-handed cut! I wish I'd learned that years ago! It's been entirely Japanese saws for me for quite a long time, and that lesson will be a big help.
It probably will. Although I still cut more accurately with western saws I did find a great improvement with pull saws when I tried the 2 handed, pull to the center of the belly, approach.
Welll said. As a beginner I find the pull stroke much easier to control. I don’t do enough to get the muscle memory required for western saws. Keep rolling my wrist.
I've found that on many Australian hardwoods which tend to have high silica , they blunt quickly and are prone to breaking teeth , fabulous on fruitwoods and softwoods though. I actually use frame/bow/turning saws a lot now , easy to make and the tensioned blade means they'll work in either orientation
I grew up in a Japanese dojo, learning foot placement, balance, and angles to hold your body. I instantly fell in love with the pull saw, its just like kata and meditation❤
I love both saw styles!! I'd love a continuation of a series kinda just brushing over all the major differences, maybe even just covering the most common preferences
I loved this video. It completely explained the way I use saws. For a simple, small cut I always grab my Japanese saws. But if I'm doing a larger cut I always grab a western saw. For some reason that is how my brain thought. You just explained the reasoning for why my body and brain want to do things and I never realized it. Thank you so much for sharing.
I built a 6 drawer storage cabinet out of plywood and pine and did all the cutting with an Irwin Japanese style hand saw. When I was going to learn how to make dovetails I would make 30 practice cuts with a western back saw. My shop experience tells me to use one tool for every thing so I really learn to use it. That was the first time I heard about using two hands on Japanese saw although I think I naturally learned it myself.
I've been using a Japanese Ryoba saw for about 7 years (since starting woodworking), but about 3 years ago I purchased a cheap construction panel saw to leave under the house. It is now my goto saw for basic construction and is definitely faster cross-cutting 90mm * 45mm studs, just less pretty.
I'm a hybrid wood worker. But I hand cut dovetails. I started three years ago with Japanese saws and I'm getting pretty good. Still long way to go. I just ordered a good western dovetail saw and I'm excited to try it.
Hey James, thanks for this video. I thought i was slowly getting better at keeping saws on track, but I think this video actually really cemented where the "random" problems can Actually come from. The other videos about saw set, also helped to problem solve some other problems.
I definitely have Japanese and western saws. You cannot beat a Japanese style flush cutting saw. I'll die on that hill. I love my Topman flush cutter. If I have to cut dowels or pegs it's my go to. I really wouldn't consider using anything else. It is a special purpose tool and performs brilliantly. There are western flush cutting saws too though. I have some. Not good ones.
I own and have used both. I prefer western saws - mostly, I think, because that's what I used for the last 55 years and I like how the saw feels when I'm cutting. The tactile feedback I get from using my hand tools is a big part of the pleasure of woodworking for me.
One thing I've learned from a Japanese friend is to let the saw do its job, pulling the saw properly not forcing it too excessively because of its flimsy blade.
As a hybrid woodworker. I have used Japanese saws more. But, i have been trying to get into hand tool woodworking. And with that, also picking up western saws. And you are right. It's a bit harder to master that western saw. Lol. Great video and information. I'm looking forward to follow-up videos.
It's a lot harder to get a good western saw today unless you're willing to spend what that costs. I have a hard time shelling out as much as a power tool costs for a quality hand tool though.
I use Japanese saws because it was a much better entry point into hand tool woodworking. For less than $100, I could get brand new ryoba and dozuki saws with razor sharp teeth and designed for fine woodworking. I also didn't have a big workbench and working on my garage floor with Japanese sawhorses was a great first step. I didn't know what a sharp saw is supposed to feel like, so fixing up old western saws was too intimidating. As far as disposable blades, I only occasionally woodwork, so these hardened teeth have lasted me for years and I don't have to mess with re-sharpening.
I got my first Dozuki? about 35 yrs ago and loved it. But as a business person, they are not as fast as my western saws. So what I do now (lol- past 20 yrs) is start my cuts very precisely with the Japanese saw to get the kerf going and then switch to the western saw to power down to the line. Yes, I have to put one saw down and pick the other up once, but I am still super quick compared to most folks. As I age, my biggest struggle is seeing where my layout lines are so now I use a lot of yellow tape and LOTS of light.
As a power tool heathen, I agree Japanese pull saws all the way! Easy to use/learn, very versatile. Also the ability to use them to flush cut something is quite amazing (without a spine to get in the way.) At the end of the day it means I just need one saw for all my handsaw needs. Thanks for checking me though, I was starting to become one of those guys who thinks Japanese saws are better across the board which is bad considering I really don't know enough to talk about it.
A Japanese saw will typically be better than a garden variety western handsaw you can pick up at the home improvement center. That same Japanese hand saw might not be better than a high end western handsaw though. Not all saws are created equal.
I’ve tried pull saws before. Takes too much effort to cut anything, hard on arms, wrists, and generally not the best cut especially if blade is two thin. Yes I said pull because those old French frame saws were pull as well. A two person crosscut logging saw is also a pull saw but since the blade is thick they cut pretty well. Western saws, as you put them, I let gravity do my sawing. All I have to do is pull it up. Much less tiring, easier on hands, wrists and arms too. Christopher shwartz did a good video on woodwrights shop about this. I found I put my middle finger and thumb around handle and leave others free. Just works, can’t describe it any other way. Just a note diston rip saws have that finger hole on top side for overhand ripping on benches. I also custom made a groove marking guage for ripping. Hss chunk of steel sharpened to width of rip saw, make groove down length I need to rip, put saw in groove do three or four passes, flip do same on other side. Makes sawing mindless. The western rip saws allow for two things you cannot do with Japanese saws. A western the blade sticks below the handle quite a bit so you can cut long strokes. Second you can also rip a curve. It’s awkward but you can do it and you need a flexible but stiff long saw blade to do it. Example, board for top of boat deck has a long slight curve but does not go all the way through board. You can cut this by hand with a western saw. Pretty hard to do that with anything else.
As someone using both, I find myself most frequently picking up my Japanese saws. But this is more because I'm working out of a small room in my house with little space. I very quickly go back to my western saws the moment I want to rip cut. I've also found myself cutting more accurately with my western saws, although I can usually track quite accurately one handed with the ryoba.
Great information. I'm not close to your level of woodworking, but I use both types of saws. I do prefer my Western style saws for most joinery. I really like the Japanese saws for delicate parting on the lathe (not with it running). I find the pull stroke allows me to have more control of the force and not tear things up as much. I use it also for quick or short rip cuts. For resawing I really like my classic frame saw. I use my panel saws for normal cuts on rough or heavier lumber.
I use exclusively Japanese saws, James. But because of my shoulders... Long story short, both were a bit damaged because of life. So, sawing with both hands means I can saw twice what I would otherwise. The fact that Japanese saws are thinner (and have less set? I don't know) also makes it easier for me. But, as I use to say, everyone should use what fits better. The tool isn't important, not even the project is that important... What is important is to have fun during the journey. 😊 Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
I made it to 4:52 before I had to go to the shop and try a two handed cut. Dead straight. Wow, all these years and I just thought I sucked with Japanese saws
As someone that works with green rough saw lumber, and having recently picked up the harbor freight Japanese pull saw, I can't say these saws like green wood. Works great with LPSmartside/OSB, and to finish off birdsmouths on roughsawn rafters.
@@Meevious unless pulled at an angle then it's actually still pretty easy to put a bend or even snap it off(pretty hard with these types but can still happen)
@@borttorbbq2556 Not getting how you'd achieve this. As you pull, the power source (you) is moving away from every part of the blade, dragging it into a straight line. Only way I can think of is if you're applying pressure on the push, despite the fact it won't cut anything that way.
After woodworking quite a few years, I use both saws. An important detail, is that both styles are available in various quality levels. Buy the good quality saws.
I have a wrist injury which prevents me holding a western saw properly to get straight cuts. The Japanese pull saws actually pull my hand and wrist straight which helps to stop the blade from wandering when I cut.
I use both, mostly to let different muscle groups rest. I am most likely to use the eastern saw for crosscuts and the western for rips of anything over a foot and always for resawing. To complicate things more I use gents saws for dovetails and tenons. I like the two handed idea and it makes sense with that long handle. My son in law has a hell of a time cutting straight with anything including his cheapy tablesaw, maybe the two handed method will help him.
I started off with a Ryoba for the last year or so, just had the bright idea to get my first back saw and told myself I’d give the Ryoba to my son. So far I’ve been quite humbled by how inept I feel with the carcass saw - I’m stubborn and I’ll stick with it but boy it’s been tempting to just go back to pull saws!
When I cam back to woodworking a few years ago, the only Western crosscut saw still in my possession was pretty worn out. I ended up buying a Dosuki and was amazed by the results (I was never able to have such a straight cut with any other saw). Within 6 months, I ended up buying a Ryoba, which has quickly become my everyday go-to saw as I'm able to do pretty much everything with it. I can't compare with good quality specialized Western saws as I don't own any. But they are cheap, and they produce excellent results once you are used to them (it takes a bit of time to understand that because it's a pull saw, you have to adapt the way you cut... such as starting your cut on the nearest corner and gradually shift the angle of the saw towards the far corner instead of the reverse). I'm not saying they are better, but they fit me. The only issue I'm still fiddling with is rip cutting, especially thicker stock: I have a hard time maintaining a straight line on the underside, and the blade is pinching in the middle of the stock, as if the fact that the blade is so thin that it slightly bends in the middle and creates a curve which makes it extremely difficult to complete the cut. I'll try using both arms as you demonstrate as I suspect it's something to do with my technique.
That's one of the problems with Japanese saws. And why most of their larger rip saws have a much thicker plate. It will hold more dust. The problem is the dust builds up on a thick cut and starts to go on one side or the other plate pushing it one way or the other inside the cut. So to reduce that you just have to put less pressure into the saw. But that also means you're going to be cutting much much slower.
Thanks James, I'll try that. Continue to publish videos, they're always informative and entertaining. I vote for your idea of doing a whole project using Japanese tools!
For me the purchase of a ryoba is the best thing to buy as a beginner. So far it´s my only handsaw (living as a renter in Hamburg, so not much space). You can do almost any cut you want decently accurate and fast - additionally you have the ability to saw big pieces (no thick back support). Well worth it, I don´t think I´ll buy other tools in the future which have such a grand area of application.
I started my hand-tool woodworking with a ryoba, basically for the reasons you described. Relatively inexpensive, you get two saws in one, and i heard good things about how they track. I found that with my preferred style of woodworking, it was hard to use in a way I enjoyed. Mostly in terms of holding the board in a standing bench in a way that I could do a good two-handed cut without running into myself. I also had issues with very dense timbers where the grain would "take" the saw and I couldn't correct it. I eventually switched to western saws, but I do think that anyone serious about woodworking should give them a shot - they're different enough that they just might be perfect for you!
I have a set of Japanese sawa and I've used both those and western saws. I prefer western. I prefer the thicker plate, I find them easy to use and I can can sharpen them easily. I can't see where Japanese saws offer any real advantage. I was quite enthusiastic about the Japanese saws when I first purchased them but I drifted away from them (no pun intended). Nowadays I only occasionally use a little flush cut saw which can be quite convenient - but it's definitely not essential.
James could you make a video of if you were to restart woodworking today and which saws you you would start with mixing and matching your favorite design to be able to complete all your basic sawing task, maybe you could make it a series.
I use a japanes backsaw for detale work and Western for others, but the 2 hand grip was a eye opener will try that hopefully that saw will work better!
I have a bunch of Japanese saws (dozuki, kataba, ryoba...) and I *love* them. I wish I could afford to purchase forged saws from a blacksmith but getting them resharpened is a little pricey. I started with Japanese saws because they were affordable and wanted the disposable blades. I've since purchased some western saws to restore and use in my shop. I want to give western saws a try and see how they fit in my workflow. Right now, I want to start with resawing with a handsaw and see how well I can do that over a Japanese saw. Both saws will have a place in my shop but I want to find what tasks both are good in and use them well.
Very informative and makes me think. I have and use both for different jobs but after watching this video I will be thinking about this video the next time I pick one up.
I got a couple of ryobas early in my woodworking journey and I haven't touched them ever since I turned the corner on using "western" saws. I've got a matched rip/crosscut panel saw pair I got on a vintage tool site for $70 total, Disstons from the 40s or so and never looked back. The teeth aren't hardened, which means I can sharpen them really easily myself and never have to throw away an entire saw plate because the front edge went blunt but cannot be sharpened. Having said that, I realize that in the case of saws a lot of the really good GOOD stuff is either vintage or very expensive compared to these japanese saws. You could probably find a pretty workable japanese dovetail saw for not a lot, and very easily on a lot of sites online. Want a truly good western dovetail saw? Ponying up for a new veritas or lie nielsen or something is a LOT and hunting around for an older one that is still in working order can be almost as expensive and more of a hassle. I think that's the main thing...availability and affordability, especially if you are new and don't have hundreds upon hundreds to get your first set of saws or planes or whatever. I've completely lost interest in japanese saws personally now that I've gotten better with the western ones, but I certainly don't blame anyone getting into this for getting one. Everyone needs to just be humble and helpful, like you!
I really like framed saws, so far I have got one with about the same teeth as a tenon saw and a turning saw and I have blades for a more agressive rip saw too. With a framed saw you really ought to be able to get a finer cut than a pullsaw even if you are pushing since the blade just need to be strong enough to hold on to the teeth.
I couldn't agree more with this assessment of Japanese saws. Granted I have never mastered a Western saw. BUT I do a fair job using the Japanese saws I have. Western saws have a HIGH learning cycle. I have never had the occasion to LEARN the Western saw skills. Most of the sawing jobs were short and not a time to dedicate to learning some new skill. Soooo.
I know Western saws .. I grew up hand building boats ( and other construction) with my grandfather Cross rip bow etc. But japanese saws feel better to me and also as AuDUD the setup and sharpening of western saws is just a sticking point for me. I have entire range of japanese saws now and it's a joy to cut with them. Do what you enjoy. what i really would like to see is a series of the usage basic like the 2 handed tip for the saws for each tool category.
I started out with Japanese saws because they were inexpensive and I was told they were easy to learn. Both of which are true! But then it got dull and I learned you can't sharpen the curved, hardened teeth. You detach the blade, dispose of it, and buy a new one. I donated them and have bought nothing but western saws since, and have learned to sharpen them. I do work mostly with reclaimed materials so the notion of disposable blades was a massive turn off.
I use Japanese saws exclusively right now. I have some hand saws and a panel saw (all crosscut), but I don't use them because I'm not setup to sharpen them. Until I can sharpen the tool, there isn't any point to using it. A saw vise is on my list of things to look for at the Hastings MWTCA meet this weekend. However, I really like the Japanese saws, and I think the biggest advice I would give to someone is to build a pair of Japanese saw horses if you are going to use them. It makes using the ryoba and other backless saws accurate and fast. I cringe every time I see someone use them in a Western vise because it's just not designed to be used that way. I have an issue with using the Japanese back saws as I just finally got one, and I need to research how to use them. I cannot cut straight because it's all on one side, and it's hard to use with the low saw horses. Perhaps I have the wrong technique, and I need to go watch some of Wilbur's videos.
I prefer the western style because that is what I learned to use as a kid. I have a lot of practice. Even after living in a place for years where I could rarely use them it came right back to me. Taught my son as my father aught me. I have no problem Japanese style saws or other work until someone say western equipment is junk compared to Japanese. Most of the joinery is the same as western. Pretty much the way a Japanese sword is like a western one and if you know how to use either tool you will be good at it.
Nice video, the skill factor was the biggest thing that stuck out when i used Japanese saws. I think most people will use them for odd cuts, or to finish off cuts and dont really develop much skills. The second thing was the chip out, i know you can strategically saw around it, but with western saws, using a waist high bench you are usually facing your mark so you want the clean cut on your side. If im cutting on the floor or on a low bench and im on top of my work then having the face on the far side and pulling the saw gives a better cut on that face. I feel dumb sort of saying that japanese people didnt have work benches but what i see is they prefer lower benches.
I pnly use western saws I made the desision when I started woodworking a couple of years ago to go for the wester style and stick with it. Also being ambidextrous using the western pistal grip means that when one arm gets tiered I just switch to the other. With Japanees style that is not an option as neather are gets a break.
Use whichever saw you want. Its your work and life. I personally use back saws. Just old fashioned I guess. Probably why I still mow with my Grandpa's 85 John Deere. Its up to whatever the user wants. You do you.
My " fines" saw have 14tpi(is a Stanley backsaw so it's cheap) and here in Mexico is nearly impossible to get saws with finer tpi, the only way to get other types of saw is through Amazon and it won't come cheap as wages are very low compared to USA, so the solution to my issue have to be orderi g through that site and also ryoba and dozuki saws are way cheaper....so it cones to budget and availability
There are arguments to be made in favor of one or the other with advantages and disadvantages, one point in favor of the japanese tools is that you can do quite a bit of it without actually needing a workbench as a lot of the work is either meant to be done on the floor or on sawhorses using your body weigth, meaning if you don't have a lot of space or you like working with roman style benches you could enjoy them more. Also the idea of having two saws in one for the ryoba is very economically tempting for those just starting out as well.
I bought cheapo ryoba saw, I was disappointed to find that it actually had Crosscut teeth on both sides. However, that disappointment was overshadowed by a much greater disappointed when I got to experience the unique sensation of dulling an entire side of the saw by dragging it 2-3 times across a nail in one of my silly scrapwood projects. 😅 I wonder if a lot of people think Ryoba's all have fine/heavy sides instead of cross/rip sides because they bought a cheap line mine. 🤷♂️
I'm currently all team Japanese saws because I keep putting off sharpening up all the nice old Western saws I've found for cheap at swap meets and garage sales, but I intend to switch over more in the future. I find rip cutting difficult with Japanese saws difficult especially on any larger cut. The lack of control because of the leading tooth on the back side makes it hard for me to fix the line when I drift a little due to the wood or my own error. I also find work holding difficult for large rips with pull saws because I'm always cutting against the grain. Using a push saw and a short saw bench just seems a lot easier than rip cuts with any Japanese saw.
I use the Japanese backless saw for cutting dovetails using a magnetic guide. Being used to tenon saws I often push forward too hard and this makes the flexible Japanese saw wobble. I use hardpoint panel saws as I find sharpening tedious. I wouldn’t use a wobbly Japanese saw in that situation. My Veritas tenon saws work so well, I would not substitute Japanese here either. I think it’s mostly a fad, but then I learned the basics very young. In England woodwork is not usually on the curriculum and machinery is accurate and needs little skill if you want to get by at speed and produce something serviceable. But if you want to enjoy the woodworking process quietly and peacefully either will entertain you and offer variety.
As a noob, I decided to go with Japanese saws and haven't regretted since. I also work at a low bench which helps with the whole power thing. The angle I usually hold the work also remives much of the the issue of having the first tooth being on the other side of the wood... You can easily work around that.
I started using Japanese saws because of my carpal and cubital tunnel syndrome. The thinner kerf and cut on the pull stroke has proved to be so much easier on my wrist and elbow.
One factor not discussed (understandably): I am a disabled woodworker. I do 80-90% of my woodworking seated at a roughly half height workbench. The Japanese saws, as they are designed and used for being seated (on the floor in the case of actual traditional Japanese woodworking) are much easier to use for me. This being due to most one-handed western saws being designed so that you stand with your dominant foot back and at an angle to the work so the sawing arm and swing freely to your side. Being seated, it's far easier to saw accurately and comfortably with the two hand stroke pulling towards your core. I do have western saws and I'm pleased with the results and will use them more if my health situation improves, but until then I will continue to reach for the Japanese saws far more often.
I started with Japanese saws. I still love ripping long boards with my ryoba - as long as I can get the board secured well. But I've switched to western saws for joinery and cross cutting, at least in part because I use western work holding. I love sawing on a bench hook, and the dozuki doesn't really work for that, for me.
I have turned to Japanese saws for most work because I don’t do woodworking often and I suck with push saws. I do however use a large panel saw for long rough ripping. It has the power and speed on boards longer than 1m but my poor technique requires more cleanup after. Use the tool that works best for you. We do this all the time without the debate these saws get. High vs Low angle for example. Wait, that gets debated too…
So I use bolth but not for the reason one might think. I lost the sight in my right eye and sawing to the line is not easy. So I use a eastern saw to start the cut and then make a long kerf to keep the western saw parallel to the line. Hope this helps others.
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I inherited my Japanese tools from my grandfather but didn't get into woodworking until after he passed so I have been learning to use them on my own. It is these simple suggestions that astound me because it improved the quality of my work to a degree I attributed only to getting better tools. The using 2 hands with a ryoba and extending your index finger down the handle of dovetail saw to lock your hand and reduce wander were such simple fixes that dramatically changed my work that I am watching how people hold tools and their postures a lot more.
The triangle concept as well. Cutting from the opposite side top down to the face side bottom creating a "triangle" then flipping the board and cutting a second triangle before cutting the remaining one in the middle can be used to make very accurate cuts.
As a kid, I got very frustrated not being able to saw a straight line. And there was nobody to teach me how. Now, as an old guy who is a beginning hybrid woodworker, I have found I can use a Japanese pull saw quite effectively. I was also able to show my younger brother how to cut a straight line, too. This video is spot on.
A monkey baby matures much faster than a human baby does. Ultimately the human baby will develop more though. That human baby will go on to do more sophisticated things. You get what I'm saying? You can monkey around with them Japanese saws. Full development takes longer but you have to be prepared to go that distance.
@@1pcfred I can't tell if you're disparaging Japanese Saws because they're easier to use, but aside from saws Japanese tools require a lot more setup and tuning than their western equivalents. If Lee Nielson and Veritas sold you a plane that required a full day to tune (Perhaps a few days as a beginner), and years to fully master, I think a lot of people would be up in arms.
@@HatsuruHitoYT Japanese saws are not easier for me to use. The straight handle does not work for me. Cutting on the pull stroke is basically wrong as far as I'm concerned too. Lie Nielsen and Veritas are never going to sell me any tools either. So I cannot speak to how those planes are as sold. I imagine they are probably not sold sharpened though. The end user would be expected to hone the iron. Flatten the back too. It might do something out of the box. But I doubt that something would be something I'd consider acceptable. Sharpening is something that can take some a while to fully master too. Sharpening doesn't have to be difficult. But many insist on making it difficult.
The tip about using both hands on the Japanese saw was worth the whole video.
I've found the Japanese style saws to be generally easier on the body. My Dad was doing less and less woodworking because the accumulated damage of 80 years of hard work was making sawing downright painful and he didn't have the strength to hand or power saw much any longer. I loaned him my set of Japanese saws for a week after months of begging him to try them. I'm happy to say that he's doubled the amount of work he can do and his joints no longer hurt as much when he's done.
I've been doing serious woodworking for over 50 years and made a secure living doing it. I have both the western saws and 12 Japanese saws and use both depending on the sawing situation at the time. You're 100& correct on learning to use a saw for it's designed to do. I can cut dovetails and tenons with my western saws with ease, and I can cut dovetails and tenons with the Japanese saws with ease because I took the time to learn how to use them and which one is best for the project I'm working on. I can use a Japanese Kataba crosscut saw and crosscut through a board faster and straighter than with a skill saw. Practice, experience and what best works for you is the key to good sawing technics. Thanks for sharing your video and the effort it takes to make them.
Strange question.. why would you , personally, use one over the other, on site or at the bench ?
@@ikust007 On site to me is on one of my benches. As I said in my comments, I use a saw that works best for me on a project, the same for my bench or carving chisels. I do reproduction furniture and pre 1860 cabinetry for clients on commission.
I'm going to bet on my Makita 5007NB sidewinder and my Swanson Big 12 over you. It's a saw made in Japan too.
@@1pcfredI imagine it was probably more hyperbole but when you consider the additional time to set it up. If you're only making a cut or two pulling out power tools generally isn't worth while. Usually just grabbing a hand saws a lot faster.
@@borttorbbq2556 I keep power tools right at my workbench so it doesn't take me much to pull one out. They're right there.
I was quite experienced with western saws, no problem cutting a straight line. Bought one of the japanese for fine lines, and always went out. As soon as i saw the video, went out to the shop, tried the 2 handed stroke and it works like magic. Thanks for the tip!
Hey James, its great to see you covering Japanese tools as a Japanese woodworker. I use traditional, resharpenable, forged saws. I like these for a few reasons.
Good saws made by masters can be very, very hard. Up to 63 or 64 HRC and have to be sharpened by specially made files. This means that they have incredible edge retention. I use exclusively hand tools and work most with rough lumber. I only sharpen my most used saw a couple times a year, (including rip and crosscut)
I also like the design of the crosscut teeth (yokobiki). Due to their design they have much greater "fleem" and severe the wood fibers much more effectively. A bit of a pain to sharpen but the finish is incredible. I virtually never shoot my boards since the cut is so fine.
Another perk of very hard saws is that they can be tensioned very tightly and become very stiff. This combined with a fine set means they can track beautifully, and very quickly.
My favorite perk of a hard saw is the feedback. Since they are so hard, you can feel everything going under the teeth. You know very precisely what's happening under the saw. I can tell it's going off the line by feel. I also know when to add more pressure or less pressure. It is said a good saw will tell you before it breaks or snaps, giving you a moment to stop and reconsider your technique.
Great video James's, I Use both. I started using Japanese saws originally due to price. Yet once I purchased good western style Back saws (Dovetail, Carcass, Tenon) and invested in developing the skill. I now prefer to use western saws 95% of the time. I still use a 270 mm Ryoba to resaw thin stock sometimes to reduce waste, yet I find that a Japanese saw can very easily wander inside the cut when re-sawing. Scooping out the centre while staying in the kerf on both sides! A n Azebiki saw is very handy for cutting out timber in the centre of a board. Cheers David
I've had the pleasure of knowing Wilbur for about 20 (or more) years. He was always a font of information on Japanese tools. But I wasn't aware he was presenting at WWIA! Good for you Wilbur!!
Hey James,
I'm almost a year into my (serious) woodworking journey and own and use both. I have owned a western crosscut saw for well over 40 years that I used for everything around the house. Until this year I didn't know why the teeth looked black and seemed to be less and less efficient. I needed to cut some small wood pieces about 2 years ago and bought a small Japanese saw and loved how well it cut. Of course it cut much better because it was better suited to the job and was much sharper! Now I own both and find, like you said, each kind does different jobs. Quite well too! I just bought a larger one and am loving that. Of course this was right after buying a Spear and Jackson cross cut saw that I also loved! I agree with you they are both great and I like one over the other only based on what I'm trying to accomplish.
Thanks for a great video!
The spear and jackson is a great and affordable saw! Ive got a few myself. Id recommend to get another one like it and a saw file so you can file it into a rip saw as well. Good luck in your wppdworking!
@@Autocrux Thank you. I have the file, now all I need is another SJ saw!
Best woodworking video I've seen in months, solid gold
I've been using primarily pull saws for the past year, while setting up a new workshop. One point I disagree with you is the issue of cutting speed. Thinner blade, less wood to remove per stroke, more cutting per energy expended. I've never seen a fair comparison of this aspect, though, and maybe I'm wrong. It's also true that a Western woodworker, at a Western bench, probably isn't using the optimum angle of attack to the wood, because as I understand it, Japanese saws are designed to be used by a standing worker with low worker-holding appliances. Good video, sir. And thanks for the link to Mr. Pan's site.
Thanks man. That is a point that has been hotly debated by many good men. The fun one to ask is a circular saw a push or a pull?
For joinery, I like both and will change when I start to get sore with one style. I'll be starting to do ripping soon, and am excited to see which i like better.
Cool video! I use japanese saws as a hobbyist working in my small apartment. They have served me well. The book Japanese Woodworking Tools by Toshio Odate is really cool for overview of the methodological and philosophical practice of woodworking in Japan.
I would love to see what other distinctions exist around tools, methods, furniture, etc. around the world. On some recent trips to Mexico and Jamaica, I was surprised that most of the furniture i encountered was handmade. It wasn't the "finest" quality, but it was very cool to see there are still craftspeople building furniture out of wood instead of buying particle board trash.
For me, the ease of the Japanese saw was instrumental in getting me to want to keep going. Also starting out on a tight budget meant that I was either using a rusty old push saw that I didn't yet know how to tune up, or a nice new Japanese saw that just worked: It was a no brainer. Now, you and other proponents of western saws have shown me how they can work better and how I can tune them up when they're not, and will occasionally turn to a western saw, but I predominantly use Japanese saws with low work horses for easy breakdowns.
Hi, I use Japanese saws and find them very good to use. Very impressed with your Western saws and how you use them. A skill you have mastered very well. The one Japanese saw that surprised me has the teeth at the front of the saw going around a curve. With this feature I can cut along a straight line in the middle of a large sheet, Firstly going back and forth a short distance tilting the blade around the curve. In no time you cut through the sheet and then finish the cut normally leaving nothing but a straight cut line. I am starting to use this feature more often and find I can get less wastage when laying out parts on a large sheets. Always room for improvement and new ideas.
Whoa, the two-handed cut! I wish I'd learned that years ago! It's been entirely Japanese saws for me for quite a long time, and that lesson will be a big help.
It probably will. Although I still cut more accurately with western saws I did find a great improvement with pull saws when I tried the 2 handed, pull to the center of the belly, approach.
Welll said. As a beginner I find the pull stroke much easier to control. I don’t do enough to get the muscle memory required for western saws. Keep rolling my wrist.
I've found that on many Australian hardwoods which tend to have high silica , they blunt quickly and are prone to breaking teeth , fabulous on fruitwoods and softwoods though. I actually use frame/bow/turning saws a lot now , easy to make and the tensioned blade means they'll work in either orientation
I grew up in a Japanese dojo, learning foot placement, balance, and angles to hold your body. I instantly fell in love with the pull saw, its just like kata and meditation❤
I love both saw styles!! I'd love a continuation of a series kinda just brushing over all the major differences, maybe even just covering the most common preferences
I loved this video. It completely explained the way I use saws. For a simple, small cut I always grab my Japanese saws. But if I'm doing a larger cut I always grab a western saw. For some reason that is how my brain thought. You just explained the reasoning for why my body and brain want to do things and I never realized it. Thank you so much for sharing.
I built a 6 drawer storage cabinet out of plywood and pine and did all the cutting with an Irwin Japanese style hand saw. When I was going to learn how to make dovetails I would make 30 practice cuts with a western back saw. My shop experience tells me to use one tool for every thing so I really learn to use it. That was the first time I heard about using two hands on Japanese saw although I think I naturally learned it myself.
I've been using a Japanese Ryoba saw for about 7 years (since starting woodworking), but about 3 years ago I purchased a cheap construction panel saw to leave under the house. It is now my goto saw for basic construction and is definitely faster cross-cutting 90mm * 45mm studs, just less pretty.
Thanks James & Family. Take care & stay safe.
I'm a hybrid wood worker. But I hand cut dovetails. I started three years ago with Japanese saws and I'm getting pretty good. Still long way to go. I just ordered a good western dovetail saw and I'm excited to try it.
Hey James, thanks for this video. I thought i was slowly getting better at keeping saws on track, but I think this video actually really cemented where the "random" problems can Actually come from. The other videos about saw set, also helped to problem solve some other problems.
I really like mine, such a fine cut too, usually no sanding required.
Thank you for sharing the pros and cons of each type of saw.
Use both, buy more tools :-)
I definitely have Japanese and western saws. You cannot beat a Japanese style flush cutting saw. I'll die on that hill. I love my Topman flush cutter. If I have to cut dowels or pegs it's my go to. I really wouldn't consider using anything else. It is a special purpose tool and performs brilliantly. There are western flush cutting saws too though. I have some. Not good ones.
😂
I own and have used both. I prefer western saws - mostly, I think, because that's what I used for the last 55 years and I like how the saw feels when I'm cutting. The tactile feedback I get from using my hand tools is a big part of the pleasure of woodworking for me.
One thing I've learned from a Japanese friend is to let the saw do its job, pulling the saw properly not forcing it too excessively because of its flimsy blade.
As a hybrid woodworker. I have used Japanese saws more. But, i have been trying to get into hand tool woodworking. And with that, also picking up western saws. And you are right. It's a bit harder to master that western saw. Lol. Great video and information. I'm looking forward to follow-up videos.
It's a lot harder to get a good western saw today unless you're willing to spend what that costs. I have a hard time shelling out as much as a power tool costs for a quality hand tool though.
I use Japanese saws because it was a much better entry point into hand tool woodworking. For less than $100, I could get brand new ryoba and dozuki saws with razor sharp teeth and designed for fine woodworking. I also didn't have a big workbench and working on my garage floor with Japanese sawhorses was a great first step. I didn't know what a sharp saw is supposed to feel like, so fixing up old western saws was too intimidating. As far as disposable blades, I only occasionally woodwork, so these hardened teeth have lasted me for years and I don't have to mess with re-sharpening.
Haha 😂 as soon as you finish your dream bench, it would be so funny to start woodworking on the floor. 😅
I got my first Dozuki? about 35 yrs ago and loved it. But as a business person, they are not as fast as my western saws. So what I do now (lol- past 20 yrs) is start my cuts very precisely with the Japanese saw to get the kerf going and then switch to the western saw to power down to the line. Yes, I have to put one saw down and pick the other up once, but I am still super quick compared to most folks. As I age, my biggest struggle is seeing where my layout lines are so now I use a lot of yellow tape and LOTS of light.
As a power tool heathen, I agree Japanese pull saws all the way! Easy to use/learn, very versatile. Also the ability to use them to flush cut something is quite amazing (without a spine to get in the way.) At the end of the day it means I just need one saw for all my handsaw needs. Thanks for checking me though, I was starting to become one of those guys who thinks Japanese saws are better across the board which is bad considering I really don't know enough to talk about it.
A Japanese saw will typically be better than a garden variety western handsaw you can pick up at the home improvement center. That same Japanese hand saw might not be better than a high end western handsaw though. Not all saws are created equal.
I’ve tried pull saws before. Takes too much effort to cut anything, hard on arms, wrists, and generally not the best cut especially if blade is two thin. Yes I said pull because those old French frame saws were pull as well. A two person crosscut logging saw is also a pull saw but since the blade is thick they cut pretty well.
Western saws, as you put them, I let gravity do my sawing. All I have to do is pull it up. Much less tiring, easier on hands, wrists and arms too. Christopher shwartz did a good video on woodwrights shop about this. I found I put my middle finger and thumb around handle and leave others free. Just works, can’t describe it any other way. Just a note diston rip saws have that finger hole on top side for overhand ripping on benches. I also custom made a groove marking guage for ripping. Hss chunk of steel sharpened to width of rip saw, make groove down length I need to rip, put saw in groove do three or four passes, flip do same on other side. Makes sawing mindless.
The western rip saws allow for two things you cannot do with Japanese saws. A western the blade sticks below the handle quite a bit so you can cut long strokes. Second you can also rip a curve. It’s awkward but you can do it and you need a flexible but stiff long saw blade to do it.
Example, board for top of boat deck has a long slight curve but does not go all the way through board. You can cut this by hand with a western saw. Pretty hard to do that with anything else.
As someone using both, I find myself most frequently picking up my Japanese saws. But this is more because I'm working out of a small room in my house with little space. I very quickly go back to my western saws the moment I want to rip cut.
I've also found myself cutting more accurately with my western saws, although I can usually track quite accurately one handed with the ryoba.
Great information. I'm not close to your level of woodworking, but I use both types of saws. I do prefer my Western style saws for most joinery. I really like the Japanese saws for delicate parting on the lathe (not with it running). I find the pull stroke allows me to have more control of the force and not tear things up as much. I use it also for quick or short rip cuts. For resawing I really like my classic frame saw. I use my panel saws for normal cuts on rough or heavier lumber.
I use exclusively Japanese saws, James. But because of my shoulders... Long story short, both were a bit damaged because of life. So, sawing with both hands means I can saw twice what I would otherwise. The fact that Japanese saws are thinner (and have less set? I don't know) also makes it easier for me.
But, as I use to say, everyone should use what fits better. The tool isn't important, not even the project is that important... What is important is to have fun during the journey. 😊
Anyway, stay safe there with your family! 🖖😊
You are absolutely wright!!
I use both. Both are useful and fun. Find what works for you.
I like both. I always use western saws when rough cutting as i tend to just use body weight to hold the wood.
I made it to 4:52 before I had to go to the shop and try a two handed cut. Dead straight. Wow, all these years and I just thought I sucked with Japanese saws
You're not the only one.
Great vid! The huge wood slab was paying very close attention
Both serve a useful purpose in my shop.
As someone that works with green rough saw lumber, and having recently picked up the harbor freight Japanese pull saw, I can't say these saws like green wood. Works great with LPSmartside/OSB, and to finish off birdsmouths on roughsawn rafters.
ya the teeth are a bit small for most green work.
The 2 hand approach makes so much sense. I finally had to toss the blade on my ryoba from kinking it too many times trying to cut one handed.
Yeah that's the reason I prefer Western saws them being thicker means if you make a mistake it probably won't damage the saw
They cut only on the pull stroke, while the blade's under tension and 100% immune to kinking.
@@Meevious unless pulled at an angle then it's actually still pretty easy to put a bend or even snap it off(pretty hard with these types but can still happen)
@@borttorbbq2556 Not getting how you'd achieve this. As you pull, the power source (you) is moving away from every part of the blade, dragging it into a straight line.
Only way I can think of is if you're applying pressure on the push, despite the fact it won't cut anything that way.
Man James really deep! Amazing information as always!
Best explanation I've seen for the Japanese saw. Thanks!
After woodworking quite a few years, I use both saws. An important detail, is that both styles are available in various quality levels. Buy the good quality saws.
I have a wrist injury which prevents me holding a western saw properly to get straight cuts. The Japanese pull saws actually pull my hand and wrist straight which helps to stop the blade from wandering when I cut.
I use both, mostly to let different muscle groups rest. I am most likely to use the eastern saw for crosscuts and the western for rips of anything over a foot and always for resawing. To complicate things more I use gents saws for dovetails and tenons. I like the two handed idea and it makes sense with that long handle. My son in law has a hell of a time cutting straight with anything including his cheapy tablesaw, maybe the two handed method will help him.
I enjoyed your cutting remarks 😘
JIM 🇺🇸
Very interesting James each has its own use and speciality.
I started off with a Ryoba for the last year or so, just had the bright idea to get my first back saw and told myself I’d give the Ryoba to my son.
So far I’ve been quite humbled by how inept I feel with the carcass saw - I’m stubborn and I’ll stick with it but boy it’s been tempting to just go back to pull saws!
Nice video, James.
When I cam back to woodworking a few years ago, the only Western crosscut saw still in my possession was pretty worn out. I ended up buying a Dosuki and was amazed by the results (I was never able to have such a straight cut with any other saw). Within 6 months, I ended up buying a Ryoba, which has quickly become my everyday go-to saw as I'm able to do pretty much everything with it. I can't compare with good quality specialized Western saws as I don't own any. But they are cheap, and they produce excellent results once you are used to them (it takes a bit of time to understand that because it's a pull saw, you have to adapt the way you cut... such as starting your cut on the nearest corner and gradually shift the angle of the saw towards the far corner instead of the reverse). I'm not saying they are better, but they fit me. The only issue I'm still fiddling with is rip cutting, especially thicker stock: I have a hard time maintaining a straight line on the underside, and the blade is pinching in the middle of the stock, as if the fact that the blade is so thin that it slightly bends in the middle and creates a curve which makes it extremely difficult to complete the cut. I'll try using both arms as you demonstrate as I suspect it's something to do with my technique.
That's one of the problems with Japanese saws. And why most of their larger rip saws have a much thicker plate. It will hold more dust. The problem is the dust builds up on a thick cut and starts to go on one side or the other plate pushing it one way or the other inside the cut. So to reduce that you just have to put less pressure into the saw. But that also means you're going to be cutting much much slower.
Thanks James, I'll try that. Continue to publish videos, they're always informative and entertaining. I vote for your idea of doing a whole project using Japanese tools!
All arguments aside, I find a pull saw FOR ME more intuitive. In use, I have both and use them as I feel the need at the moment.
For me the purchase of a ryoba is the best thing to buy as a beginner. So far it´s my only handsaw (living as a renter in Hamburg, so not much space). You can do almost any cut you want decently accurate and fast - additionally you have the ability to saw big pieces (no thick back support). Well worth it, I don´t think I´ll buy other tools in the future which have such a grand area of application.
I started my hand-tool woodworking with a ryoba, basically for the reasons you described. Relatively inexpensive, you get two saws in one, and i heard good things about how they track. I found that with my preferred style of woodworking, it was hard to use in a way I enjoyed. Mostly in terms of holding the board in a standing bench in a way that I could do a good two-handed cut without running into myself. I also had issues with very dense timbers where the grain would "take" the saw and I couldn't correct it. I eventually switched to western saws, but I do think that anyone serious about woodworking should give them a shot - they're different enough that they just might be perfect for you!
I have a set of Japanese sawa and I've used both those and western saws. I prefer western. I prefer the thicker plate, I find them easy to use and I can can sharpen them easily. I can't see where Japanese saws offer any real advantage. I was quite enthusiastic about the Japanese saws when I first purchased them but I drifted away from them (no pun intended). Nowadays I only occasionally use a little flush cut saw which can be quite convenient - but it's definitely not essential.
Excellent video and introduction. Thank you 🎉
James could you make a video of if you were to restart woodworking today and which saws you you would start with mixing and matching your favorite design to be able to complete all your basic sawing task, maybe you could make it a series.
I have done a couple videos on first tools. I might need to do another soon.
I use a japanes backsaw for detale work and Western for others, but the 2 hand grip was a eye opener will try that hopefully that saw will work better!
Great explanation! Thanks!
I have a bunch of Japanese saws (dozuki, kataba, ryoba...) and I *love* them. I wish I could afford to purchase forged saws from a blacksmith but getting them resharpened is a little pricey. I started with Japanese saws because they were affordable and wanted the disposable blades. I've since purchased some western saws to restore and use in my shop. I want to give western saws a try and see how they fit in my workflow. Right now, I want to start with resawing with a handsaw and see how well I can do that over a Japanese saw. Both saws will have a place in my shop but I want to find what tasks both are good in and use them well.
I saw! Great video, cheers for sharing.
Very informative and makes me think. I have and use both for different jobs but after watching this video I will be thinking about this video the next time I pick one up.
Thanks James
I saw your Pont and I agree with you
Excellent points. I guess use what works best for you.
I got a couple of ryobas early in my woodworking journey and I haven't touched them ever since I turned the corner on using "western" saws. I've got a matched rip/crosscut panel saw pair I got on a vintage tool site for $70 total, Disstons from the 40s or so and never looked back. The teeth aren't hardened, which means I can sharpen them really easily myself and never have to throw away an entire saw plate because the front edge went blunt but cannot be sharpened. Having said that, I realize that in the case of saws a lot of the really good GOOD stuff is either vintage or very expensive compared to these japanese saws. You could probably find a pretty workable japanese dovetail saw for not a lot, and very easily on a lot of sites online. Want a truly good western dovetail saw? Ponying up for a new veritas or lie nielsen or something is a LOT and hunting around for an older one that is still in working order can be almost as expensive and more of a hassle. I think that's the main thing...availability and affordability, especially if you are new and don't have hundreds upon hundreds to get your first set of saws or planes or whatever. I've completely lost interest in japanese saws personally now that I've gotten better with the western ones, but I certainly don't blame anyone getting into this for getting one. Everyone needs to just be humble and helpful, like you!
I use both I like each for different applications.
I really like framed saws, so far I have got one with about the same teeth as a tenon saw and a turning saw and I have blades for a more agressive rip saw too. With a framed saw you really ought to be able to get a finer cut than a pullsaw even if you are pushing since the blade just need to be strong enough to hold on to the teeth.
I couldn't agree more with this assessment of Japanese saws. Granted I have never mastered a Western saw. BUT I do a fair job using the Japanese saws I have. Western saws have a HIGH learning cycle. I have never had the occasion to LEARN the Western saw skills. Most of the sawing jobs were short and not a time to dedicate to learning some new skill. Soooo.
I know Western saws .. I grew up hand building boats ( and other construction) with my grandfather Cross rip bow etc. But japanese saws feel better to me and also as AuDUD the setup and sharpening of western saws is just a sticking point for me. I have entire range of japanese saws now and it's a joy to cut with them. Do what you enjoy. what i really would like to see is a series of the usage basic like the 2 handed tip for the saws for each tool category.
I started out with Japanese saws because they were inexpensive and I was told they were easy to learn. Both of which are true! But then it got dull and I learned you can't sharpen the curved, hardened teeth. You detach the blade, dispose of it, and buy a new one. I donated them and have bought nothing but western saws since, and have learned to sharpen them. I do work mostly with reclaimed materials so the notion of disposable blades was a massive turn off.
You can use the old saw plate as a scraper. But how many scrapers does anyone need? At some point you are going to have to just toss them out.
I use Japanese saws exclusively right now. I have some hand saws and a panel saw (all crosscut), but I don't use them because I'm not setup to sharpen them. Until I can sharpen the tool, there isn't any point to using it. A saw vise is on my list of things to look for at the Hastings MWTCA meet this weekend.
However, I really like the Japanese saws, and I think the biggest advice I would give to someone is to build a pair of Japanese saw horses if you are going to use them. It makes using the ryoba and other backless saws accurate and fast. I cringe every time I see someone use them in a Western vise because it's just not designed to be used that way. I have an issue with using the Japanese back saws as I just finally got one, and I need to research how to use them. I cannot cut straight because it's all on one side, and it's hard to use with the low saw horses. Perhaps I have the wrong technique, and I need to go watch some of Wilbur's videos.
Great explanation! This is really helpful for me!
I prefer the western style because that is what I learned to use as a kid. I have a lot of practice. Even after living in a place for years where I could rarely use them it came right back to me. Taught my son as my father aught me. I have no problem Japanese style saws or other work until someone say western equipment is junk compared to Japanese. Most of the joinery is the same as western. Pretty much the way a Japanese sword is like a western one and if you know how to use either tool you will be good at it.
Nice video, the skill factor was the biggest thing that stuck out when i used Japanese saws. I think most people will use them for odd cuts, or to finish off cuts and dont really develop much skills.
The second thing was the chip out, i know you can strategically saw around it, but with western saws, using a waist high bench you are usually facing your mark so you want the clean cut on your side. If im cutting on the floor or on a low bench and im on top of my work then having the face on the far side and pulling the saw gives a better cut on that face.
I feel dumb sort of saying that japanese people didnt have work benches but what i see is they prefer lower benches.
You deserve to get panned for that joke.
I saw in your video how ripped the teeth out of the west vs east argument and how you cut cross the barriers.
I pnly use western saws I made the desision when I started woodworking a couple of years ago to go for the wester style and stick with it. Also being ambidextrous using the western pistal grip means that when one arm gets tiered I just switch to the other. With Japanees style that is not an option as neather are gets a break.
It’s only “divisive” on the internet. In the real world, many woodworkers have both.
Use whichever saw you want. Its your work and life. I personally use back saws. Just old fashioned I guess. Probably why I still mow with my Grandpa's 85 John Deere. Its up to whatever the user wants. You do you.
My " fines" saw have 14tpi(is a Stanley backsaw so it's cheap) and here in Mexico is nearly impossible to get saws with finer tpi, the only way to get other types of saw is through Amazon and it won't come cheap as wages are very low compared to USA, so the solution to my issue have to be orderi g through that site and also ryoba and dozuki saws are way cheaper....so it cones to budget and availability
There are arguments to be made in favor of one or the other with advantages and disadvantages, one point in favor of the japanese tools is that you can do quite a bit of it without actually needing a workbench as a lot of the work is either meant to be done on the floor or on sawhorses using your body weigth, meaning if you don't have a lot of space or you like working with roman style benches you could enjoy them more. Also the idea of having two saws in one for the ryoba is very economically tempting for those just starting out as well.
I bought cheapo ryoba saw, I was disappointed to find that it actually had Crosscut teeth on both sides. However, that disappointment was overshadowed by a much greater disappointed when I got to experience the unique sensation of dulling an entire side of the saw by dragging it 2-3 times across a nail in one of my silly scrapwood projects. 😅
I wonder if a lot of people think Ryoba's all have fine/heavy sides instead of cross/rip sides because they bought a cheap line mine. 🤷♂️
I'm currently all team Japanese saws because I keep putting off sharpening up all the nice old Western saws I've found for cheap at swap meets and garage sales, but I intend to switch over more in the future. I find rip cutting difficult with Japanese saws difficult especially on any larger cut. The lack of control because of the leading tooth on the back side makes it hard for me to fix the line when I drift a little due to the wood or my own error. I also find work holding difficult for large rips with pull saws because I'm always cutting against the grain. Using a push saw and a short saw bench just seems a lot easier than rip cuts with any Japanese saw.
I use the Japanese backless saw for cutting dovetails using a magnetic guide. Being used to tenon saws I often push forward too hard and this makes the flexible Japanese saw wobble. I use hardpoint panel saws as I find sharpening tedious. I wouldn’t use a wobbly Japanese saw in that situation. My Veritas tenon saws work so well, I would not substitute Japanese here either. I think it’s mostly a fad, but then I learned the basics very young. In England woodwork is not usually on the curriculum and machinery is accurate and needs little skill if you want to get by at speed and produce something serviceable. But if you want to enjoy the woodworking process quietly and peacefully either will entertain you and offer variety.
As a noob, I decided to go with Japanese saws and haven't regretted since. I also work at a low bench which helps with the whole power thing. The angle I usually hold the work also remives much of the the issue of having the first tooth being on the other side of the wood... You can easily work around that.
I started using Japanese saws because of my carpal and cubital tunnel syndrome. The thinner kerf and cut on the pull stroke has proved to be so much easier on my wrist and elbow.
One factor not discussed (understandably): I am a disabled woodworker. I do 80-90% of my woodworking seated at a roughly half height workbench. The Japanese saws, as they are designed and used for being seated (on the floor in the case of actual traditional Japanese woodworking) are much easier to use for me. This being due to most one-handed western saws being designed so that you stand with your dominant foot back and at an angle to the work so the sawing arm and swing freely to your side. Being seated, it's far easier to saw accurately and comfortably with the two hand stroke pulling towards your core. I do have western saws and I'm pleased with the results and will use them more if my health situation improves, but until then I will continue to reach for the Japanese saws far more often.
I started with Japanese saws. I still love ripping long boards with my ryoba - as long as I can get the board secured well. But I've switched to western saws for joinery and cross cutting, at least in part because I use western work holding. I love sawing on a bench hook, and the dozuki doesn't really work for that, for me.
I have turned to Japanese saws for most work because I don’t do woodworking often and I suck with push saws. I do however use a large panel saw for long rough ripping. It has the power and speed on boards longer than 1m but my poor technique requires more cleanup after.
Use the tool that works best for you. We do this all the time without the debate these saws get. High vs Low angle for example. Wait, that gets debated too…
Thanks for sharing that
So I use bolth but not for the reason one might think.
I lost the sight in my right eye and sawing to the line is not easy. So I use a eastern saw to start the cut and then make a long kerf to keep the western saw parallel to the line. Hope this helps others.