Do Japanese saws cut faster than western saws?
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- Опубликовано: 13 мар 2022
- Let's go out the the shop, cut some wood and put this endless debate to the test!
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Pull saws used in this video:
-Ryoba (fast, rough cuts): lddy.no/1447c
-Kataba (finish cuts, flush cuts): lddy.no/1447e
-Dozuki (ultra-fine cuts and joinery): lddy.no/1cd7y
Push saws used in this video
-Hybrid double-cut saw (same as the Dewalt, but cheaper): amzn.to/3i8tOsI
-Quality western rip and crosscut saws (comparable to my antique Disstons): lddy.no/14ugm
Video about Japanese saws: • Is Japan slowly killin...
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*Pull saws used in this video:*
-Ryoba (fast, rough cuts): lddy.no/1447c
-Kataba (finish cuts, flush cuts): lddy.no/1447e
-Dozuki (ultra-fine cuts and joinery): lddy.no/1cd7y
*Push saws used in this video*
-Hybrid double-cut saw (same as the Dewalt, but cheaper): amzn.to/3i8tOsI
-Quality western rip and crosscut saws (comparable to my antique Disstons): lddy.no/14ugm
*Video about Japanese saws:* ruclips.net/video/PZdoLx72faM/видео.html
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(If you use one of these affiliate links, we may receive a small commission)
★SOME OF MY FAVORITE CHEAP TOOLS★
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-Mechanical Pencils: amzn.to/2PA7bwK
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-Pocket Measuring Tape: amzn.to/2kNTlI9
-Irwin Drill Bit Gauge: amzn.to/2AwTkQg
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-Digital depth gauge: amzn.to/3mwRf2x
-Wood Glue: amzn.to/3mqek6M
-Spade Bits: amzn.to/3j8XPtD
★SOME OF MY FAVORITE HAND TOOLS★
-Digital Caliper: amzn.to/384H1Or
-Marking Gauge: lddy.no/10muz
-Marking knife: lddy.no/10mv0
-Narex Chisels: lddy.no/sqm3
-Stanley Sweetheart Chisels: amzn.to/3y5HDOc
-Mini Pull Saw: amzn.to/2UEHBz6
-Gent Saw: lddy.no/ss2x
-Coping saw: amzn.to/2W7ZiUS
-Shinwa Rulers: lddy.no/zl13
★SOME OF MY FAVORITE POWER TOOLS★
-Miter Saw: amzn.to/3gqIlQ8
-Jointer: amzn.to/3yc3gfZ
-Planer: amzn.to/3mn6BGF
-Router: amzn.to/3grD22S
-Sander: amzn.to/3DdvD0Y
-Cordless drill: amzn.to/3D9ZiIm
-Brad nailer: amzn.to/3gsRkjH
-Mini Compressor: amzn.to/3mvrmQr
-Bladerunner: amzn.to/2Wl0TtJ
-Jig Saw: amzn.to/3zetTBY
-Scroll Saw: amzn.to/3gq9qDc
-Multi-Tool: amzn.to/3muZuMi
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-Drill Bits: amzn.to/3B8Ckzh
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There was something not mentioned: WOBBLE / BINDING. Look at the push saw wobble like madd, as it was being thrusted forwards. It was Binding at times, causing side to side drift / wobble, and slowing down the cut.
Where as with the PULL saw.. there is no binding when you push forwards... and you are pulling the blade straight and tight... to keep it from binding as you make the cut, and go past it.
In addition, the thinner Kerf takes far less effort on each cut, as you are moving through less material.
If you add some lubricant to the blade, it may even reduce frictional forces even further. Id try a car spray that uses Urethane in it.
@@johndough8115 There's a lot not mentioned, like the rake of the teeth, etc. that can let a saw remove material faster and thus cut faster and with less effort but it's a messier cut that works for rough cut but not fine joinery. You can go back and forth all day on it. End of the day, it comes down to how you use it and what you're working on...
@@ZeoCyberG Doesnt matter. Its pure physics. Slow down the video, and watch the traditional push saw blast side to side, as its being pushed through the wood.
This is because the teeth can bind up, and the blade is thin enough and not supported, that its able to veer to the sides... which is amplified by the springy effect of the blade itself.
If you put a handle on the opposite side of a push saw... you would eliminate the issue... because you would be pulling the blade straight, under tension, through the entire cut.
Which makes the case for a potential hybrid saw, which rest below the forearm. Or possibly a u-shaped handle, that pulls the blade from the front.
Look at a tool like a hand held Planer. The blade is generally push oriented... but the handle is mostly towards the front of the tool. If you put the handle completely at the rear... it would be more likely to accidentally veer to the sides.
@@johndough8115 I'm aware of the physics, it's why push saws are usually thicker and why there are versions with spine backings as well as other designs. For example, western saws actually include versions with multiple handle. There's a lot more variety than shown here and a lot more that factors into the design. So it all does matter!
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I think this comparison missed an important part - getting started.
Many beginning woodworkers struggle with push saws because the blade will bend if they push too hard at first. With the Japanese saw, you keep tension on the cut stroke so that problem is removed.
Thats actually a good point take anyone who is not experienced using saws and they will be able to use the japanese saw better on the first time every time.
Bingo.
Even when using a normal, Western saw, I often score the wood with a few pulls before getting into it. I'd definitely keep a trusty push saw handy for big cuts, but for clean cuts with minimal waste, the Japanese saw wins.
That was mentioned in depth in the original video
I was about to say that myself, I'm no wood worker at all, but I've always struggled with push saws. I'm not physically strong, but the pull saws my shop teacher let me use when he saw me struggling worked like a dream
Once and for all, we have our definitive answer. "It depends."
I like them all. However, I do lean towards the Japanese saws due to their lower weight, cleaner cuts and ability to inexpensively replace blades. I spend enough time sharpening other stuff. Sometimes you just want to use a tool.
This is exactly where I fall on yhe issue. I'll admit that I have a soft spot in my heart for western traditional woodworking but ease of use and price override my nostalgic tendencies lol.
Sawing technique / ergonomic is seldom discussed and is brings out difference between Japanese and Western saws. Traditional Japanese woodworkers often have lower benches and sit at the bench instead of standing over it. Laying a board on its face and cutting a dovetail or ripping a tenon is easier with a Japanese saw than a Western dovetail or tenon saw. The long handed, you hold with both hands, the saw is vertical in front of your face, easy to see it square to the board. Having lower back issues, I find working like this less fatiguing than standing over, or hunched over, a workbench. Ditto on Japanese planes. Pulling a plane while sitting is much easier on the lower back than pushing a western plane.
Part of me wishes we could find statistics on the work-hours-per-age-group of historical Western and Japanese woodworkers; could Japanese masters have spent more hours working in their old age than Westerners? It might make sense that older people would prefer different work styles than younger people.
I Like the Push SAW more because i save time at the Sand BAG and i can do it all Day Long...
But...
If i have to Cut brenches of a tree the pull SAW is so mutch easyer to operate.
So im 100% with you about ergonomix. If you Seat down pull SAW and plane will be great i guess but for now i Work Standing and Like pushing a lot more.... Most of the time :-)
(Use what you have and buy what you Like ;-)
Greatz from Germany
and have a nice Day
opo
@@danielkruyt9475 While that is generally true for people "just doing it", I have to say, once it becomes a practice and a craft, the techniques tend to equalize between age groups, because the good practices are always good practices. Sure, a younger person feels they can just shrug it off, but it still does longer term damage. And you can feel it at any age, even if less. Doing it the comfy way, once you get the hang of it, no problem, the faster or "just do it anyway" way gets tiring much faster.
The difference in tool development across cultures is very complex and interconnected with other things, it is often not just a mere matter of comparing one chosen efficiency. Differences between the local material available (softer woods very often), average stature, cultural habits, etc., all influence it.
I'd add that I couldn't make a straight cut to save my life. Even very crude furniture was beyond me unless I wanted to spend hours with everyone's favorite pastime- sanding.
Then the discussion started to turn to ergonomics, body mechanics, and, by degree, Japanese saws.
While still not woodworker by any stretch, I can at least make a table that doesn't wobble now.
yeah ive seen them, they use their feet as a third hand too.
i say safety comes first and western saws win
As I'm not a professional who has to work against the clock, speed is of very little importance to me. The difference in the cleanness of the cuts is what makes pull saws my preferred saws. If I just need to dimension a piece of wood quickly, I use my circular saw. Even it produces cleaner cuts than those Western saws used in the video. But ultimately it makes no damned difference at all, because everyone chooses what he prefers, and that's fine.
I did notice that the pusher rip saws really munged the sides of the kerf.
Very interesting, nice discussion of the practical aspects. Just what I always enjoy with your vids. But ultimately for me it comes down to... What do I feel like using today. I really most enjoy using one kind of saw or the other just cause I like how each feels when I use it. So.. Tea today, coffee tomorrow... But a fine tooth dozuki is really hard to beat for making accurate cuts without the benefit of frequent practice sawing.
The shots nearly always had the pull saws exiting the cut away from camera so it was never a fair comparison of the tear out - we needed to see both sides of the boards. Though from my experience, the sharpness of the japanese saws does generally result in cleaner cuts.
because you're watching the pushing side of the "western" saws and not the pushing side of the "japanese" ones. If you look at the other side of the "western" saws it's clean too lmao
@@davevick1775 But if you want a nice finish, you touch it up with a plane anyway. Sawed finish is ugly, no matter what saw, or how perfect your technique is. Japanese saws can get an ok-ish finish for inside the joinery in some kind of joints. But european joinery is often done with blades (axes, planes, chisels) rather than saws, because that leads to a way more accurate finish.
I bought a Japanese saw for the "Novelty" of it, and cause I liked the way it looked lol. I ended up loving it way more than my old school push saw. Once you get the hang of it, I find it easier to be more precise. I'm a hobbyist, so speed isn't really a concern. I don't know which wins there, but comfort and precision, the pull saw wins for me.
Yeah same, I saw a cheap one on sale at a local hardware shop and thought it looked cool and now it's my go-to saw of choice
I don’t care if my Japanese saws are slower or faster, for me they cut so much more easily, with smooth, straight cuts. I expend less effort and get better results.
Even when he goes Brutal on the saw, the Japanese one made the cut better than a careful cut from the western saw.
I was very impressed.
That's exactly my point. I find Japanese saws ergonomics just perfect and I stick with that.
Agree! The quality of the cut with my Japanese saw is much better.
I agree
"There's an unexpected twist that your really need to stick around for". Every time! And every time, I'm like "OK, sure! Show me what's up!" ~Thanks for being a channel that actually lives up to its self-advertisement-click-bait-viewer-retention statements 😀
There was nothing. At least I know who’s videos to skip next time.
@@danielhammer7148 Basically. These videos are info dense, they are good, but at the same time they are slowly drifting towards clickbait. It's pretty sad seeing this happen to this channel...
Thank for your service! Some thoughts:
1. It would be helpful to see the back of the ripped stock. As it stands, it *appears* that the Western-style saws cause *MUCH* worse tearout than the Eastern-style, but we can only know that for certain if the back of the piece of wood is shown. (There does seem to be a *LOT* less unevenness from tearout on the crosscut piece cut with the Eastern-style saw, when the back of the cut is briefly visible from the front.)
2. The reason that the Eastern-style saw can cut *MUCH* faster than Western-style saws when used two-handed is the long handle acting as an effective lever; the more distance between the effort and the fulcrom--i.e. your left and right hands--the greater the downward force.
3. Conversely, the reasons that the reverse is true when used one-handed are not only because of the fewer, larger teeth, but because of the greater offset of the hand from the line of the teeth; at a given position, the force travelling from the hand to the engaged teeth is angled more downward than with an Eastern-style saw, meaning more force is used to push the teeth down into the wood than forward along the saw's path. (If the force angle isn't careful balanced, the saw can be pressed *too* hard into the wood, stalling it. If this occurs near the tip of a long saw, the saw itself can even end up *permanently* bent as it buckles under the pressure--ask me how I know. :sigh: This is not possible with an Eastern-style saw.)
Does that make sense?
The eastern saw is way better for flipping a burger 🍔🤣🍔
I get ya. I grew up with Japanese saws, switched to western saws due to availability for a long time but used one of my uncle's saws when i went back to visit and just bought a set of them and brought them back in my carry on afterwards. I can't tell you how many times had bind and bend with western saws, even a snap once
In my experience the Japanese saws work better in softer woods and the western saws work better in harder woods, where, for me, better refers to speed and quality of cut. Also I tend to try to touch up my western saws whenever they feel like they aren’t cutting as well, typically in very hard woods like oak and hickory. I’ve broken too many teeth trying to cut hardwood with Japanese saws so I tend not to use them for that. Since my western saws are usually more handy I tend to grab them instead of walking over and getting a Japanese saw out of the cabinet. If I’m going to walk across the shop I’ll more than likely use the table saw or bandsaw.
It’s rare to see internet videos that try to consolidate and introduce nuance to arguments rather than seeking to divide opinions. Just wanted to let you know your efforts are recognized. Keep up the great work!
Good video. What bewilders me is that the question of which is faster is even brought up. A true woodworker would ask, “which gives me a cleaner straighter cut”.
When i first started woodworking, i got a Ryoba saw and literally used the rip cut side for everything lol. It felt faster because i was sawing very slow to be as accurate as possible, but when i needed to rough cut thicker boards, I noticed the convenience of the cross cut side. Please dont tear me up too much guys. Im just a hobby woodworker and still fairly new and just learn everything on youtube. This video was very informative for me, thank you!
First off, I am a chef. Spent the last 25 years of my life in many high end kitchens, (hence zero woodworking skills ..but I recently took a couple months off with my savings) Man I have to say, I came across your channel and something just hit right. I’ve recently watched many woodworking, tutorials, etc. but yours, (and I have to honorably mention the “ workshop companion“) is completely loaded with such great information! I I’ve watched a ton of your videos and just really enjoy the way you teach. Thanks!
I'm glad speed or number of strokes is not important to me. I just enjoy sawing. If I'm really in a hurry I pull out the jig saw, band saw or table saw. Interesting and well done video. Thanks. I still watch the early videos, the humor is good.
Good lord imagine actually caring what kind of saw someone else uses to cut wood with. If that’s your biggest problem, then you live a damn good life! Thanks as always stumpy for another great video!
"You merely embraced the saw dust. I was BORN in it. Molded by it."
I believe that James Hamilton shares the most concise, usable information that any woodworker can use. I thank you sir.
Interesting analysis, for which I'm grateful. I DO have to thank you, though, for one crucial bit of enlightenment re: push vs pull -- although it was actually in your previous (afore-mentioned) video. What you pointed out there, which I hadn't previously (cared enough to have) thought about was what is actually well explained by your front wheel vs rear wheel drive analogy. Truthfully, what I connected it with IMMEDIATELY when you mentioned the problem (at about 1:30 in) was what I've noticed when pushing or pulling something like a hand truck: if you try to push one ahead of you, the task of steering is quite demanding - versus just dragging it behind you, where it AUTOMATICALLY follows without requiring ANY concern for steering. I suspect that anyone who hasn't had a western saw buckle/bow instead of cutting through as intended - probably hasn't used a saw enough to have a legitimate opinion.
Me, about a quarter of the way in:
"Hm. But what about downforce? If it is quicker but takes more effort......"
Me, at the 5min mark:
"Ah. I knew there's a reason I subscribed to this channel..."
That result is good for everyone, who prefer cut speed before quality. :)
Western saw remove more material (because need to be thicker and have wide kerf) a make ugly edge (because of kerf and loose wobling).
Who preferred cut quality, use pull saws without kerf. :)
I agree with your general conclusion that neither one is better than the other. Craftsmen have been doing amazing things for hundred, if not thousands, of years with both styles. It all comes down to personal preference. Great video as always, James!
that's what I love about this channel.
My cross cut and tenon saws are over 100 years old. Unfortunately my rip saw has disappeared. Being retired I can now take a week to do a days work as a DIYer so speed isn’t important. I do find your insights really interesting 🌞
I have bought me some of those pull saws because it seemed easier for me to work with them than the push saws. I don't know why, maybe because I am a woman though cutting is cutting but I find those pull saws much easier to work with and quite frankly I don't care if it takes an extra strike or two or more as long as I am able to do the cut. Love your videos and thanks for making them. One can learn a lot from you.
As an old English major, I'd like to thank you for the proper use of fewer vs. less. It seems like less and less people are using them properly these days. :)
I do wonder though - how many people using hand saws are all that worried about efficiency? I would think being efficient is not an overriding consideration for we Luddites who like using hand tools.
Very informative video. thank you! I'm 70+ year old son of a cabinetmaker who followed his footsteps (or at least tried to). Got my first Japanese saw (though I never could call it by its proper name Dozuki) in 1980 out west. Still have the saw, but it could use some tooth implantation as it's full tang blade with no push button release. Anyway, watching RUclips's high profile woodworkers--Paul Sellers, William Brown, Rob Crossman, Samurai Carpenter, and a few others, I find this channel the easiest to learn from. I appreciate the simple, unadorned presentation style and lack of what seem to me (sometimes) to be reality show overtones or undertones one might encounter elsewhere in other videos., In my opinion you are an excellent teacher.
Hey Stumpy,… great job of teaching/demonstrating as usual,…but this time, even dumb ole me has seen something you didn’t speak about. Here it is…..with a western push-cut, every stroke yielded serious splintering of end fibers (could be solved with taping prior to cut), and the face of the cut was very rough looking. The opposite is visually true with the pull-cut saw. Little to no end-splintering, face of cut smooth. With construction jobs, what I’m pointing out may be of no worth,…but when I’m in my shop cutting a board for ANY project, I like the cut result to be smooooth!
This is very interesting. I have saws going back 40 years (which I can sharpen) however my modern blades are so sharp I find myself actually holding them back to stop them snagging in the cut sometimes. Of course the teeth are much different from traditional saws . I like both!
Another fine video! I bought a basic ryoba saw over 10 years ago and I love it. I haven’t given up 30 yr old Stanley box saw though and still use it often. I use both depending on the task and the angle I have to cut.
We should reach out to Project Farm to get an extensive comparison. I’d love to see the testing jigs he’d come up with. 😜
I enjoy that at the end of a lot of videos of debates style videos , technique discussions or especially that video you made where you talk about budget tools and what to spend for a beginning hobbyist , you add a note about everyone's style being good enough essentially what, I feel, saying . So long as your doing/trying woodwork it's great or good enough.
This was a nice and educational video that summarizes to "use what works best for you".
I don't mean that negatively either. It was actually quite informative, and gave evidence to the concept, instead of simply saying it was based on personal preference.
As I slow down I'm noticing the journey is just as appealing as the arriving so for me I reach for a Japanese saw with usually a narrower kerf and finer finish . And kerf is a word you taught me Stumpy because I know sweet bugga all :lol:
Thanks for the comparison really enjoyed it.
Great comparison James, thanks.
Excellent perspective and invaluable information 👍
Intriguing take on a classic hit debate. Well spoken and thorough as always.
the most surprising thing in this video to me was how affordable the saws actually were in the links. i may need to try them out myself.
Love the debate, I have heard it put “Japanese saws for Japanese woods & Western saws for Western Woods”. Me, myself & I well we use what’s closest at the time
I don't have a miter saw, so my power tool options for making crosscuts are a table saw (with crosscut sled) and a circular saw. My space is pretty cramped, so getting either of those ready for use, and cleaning up afterwards takes some effort.
Before I had the Japanese saws, I would bust out the power tools for anything but the simplest work.
With the Japanese saws around, I find that I often finish projects using only hand saws.
Someone with excellent technique and high quality equipment can probably get the same results with western saws, but I found that within hours of using Japanese saws for the first time, I had better results than I ever got from the western saws I had been using for decades.
I admire the clarity and logic of this presenter. You cannot disagree much on what he says because he is so cautious not to overstate what he finds as a result of his trials. Completely credible and interesting to follow. I subscribe. Go on, please.
Who would have thought that different saw designs would have different pros and cons? Great video
Great video as always, James.
I used a hand saw a lot as a kid, and the key to success seemed to be not flexing the saw blade on an aggressive push stroke. From what I can tell, that potential problem is eliminated in the Japanese saw because the push stroke doesn't need power, hence no flex.
I'm not sure speed is something I care about for woodworking saws. If I were just sawing through a log sure. Interestingly, they do actually make a Japanese pull saw for that sort of thing (though I'm not sure how common they are--the first google link says they're uncommon, but you can buy them on Amazon).
And those saw are light years faster then any western style saw. They can most actually catch up with a chain saw they cut so fast on woods like pine etc. Any of the silky saws are amazing and if you cut stuff in the woods you should have one. I used to have a silky katanaboy and it cuts so fast it doesn't seem real.
If you were sawing a log all day, you probalby would want a balance between productivity and comfort (well, you always want that in general). Also, you still need a finish. Sure, the first pre processing cuts, not essential. But eventually, you've pre-processed enough and it is read to be turned into lumber, and you'd rather do it once, nice and clean, than cut it really fast, then have to face every single face of every single board because your tool/techique/system was too focused on cutting speed, rather than whole job speed.
@@louisvictor3473 Well the kind of saws that I was talking about like the silky katanaboy are edc/outdoor type of stuff. It is something you would take camping.
@@konnan216 of course, there are also western saws made for very fast cutting on feral wood. and in a sprint, they can keep up with a chain saw in some cases. one tester said they estimated the break even point was about three cuts. that's the point you realize that li-ion has higher endurance than muscle.
@@louisvictor3473 If you were sawing logs all day you would buy/rent/loan a chainsaw. But yes, for occasional cutting one of those pull saws looks great. Personally I would throw both in the car though, because you don't have the room to do pull or push at times. I use bow saws a lot to maintain the trees around here but if that has a directional blade you could reverse that fairly easily.
Having prune trees at my last job, I really built an affinity for a pulling motion, because on the back stroke (going foreward in this case) it seems a little less prone to catching on the material,while on the cut stroke, pulling is easier for me.
The first thing I learned about woodworking is there are always multiple ways to accomplish any cut, regardless of the project. So it's silly to argue about which is better unless safety is the deciding factor. Use the tool you have, are most comfortable with, is closest, is favored, has sentimental value, is sharpest, or out of curiosity. It doesn't matter. It's your shop, your tools, your project. Never tell someone else they way they do things are wrong just because it differs from how you do it.
Excellent attitude. I absolutely agree.
#powertoolsareofthedevil
(Kidding! Kidding!)
This is kind of like the great photographer Ansel Adams' comment, when asked what the best camera is: "the one you have with you at the moment."
I’m in the middle of replacing base moulding and the door trim, I ran into an issue over the weekend as the board that is under the staircase skirt board, had an odd angle, I found using the Japanese saw, I recently purchased was the perfect tool for this. Allowed me to be much more accurate with the cut.
I’m a newbie and I’m glued to you for a very good reason.
My takeaway, for someone at my level, is that I go with what is comfortable and gives results.
I’ll leave the formula 1 stuff to those whom seconds matter.
Nice follow up video. I find Japanese saws much handier when not working at a bench. For example, yesterday I was shortening rows of French cleats to make way for some new cabinets in my shop. The long thin handle of my Ryoba made those cuts much easier than trying to use a panel saw.
Great comparison
While my only pull saws are a folding silky saw and a cheapo flush cut, I generally just use whatever saw happens to be near at hand and sharp. Great experiment. Like survivalist Alan Kay says, "If you can do, it will do."
Great video, James, and you have cut to the chase (pun intended) about the key factors in saw usage. I have had only limited experience with a good Japanese pull saw, but I like it a ton for clean and straight cuts when properly used. I also have several vintage Stanley or Diston saws from my Grandfather and these are in dire need of a proper sharpening. Just gotta find a local sharpener who really knows his stuff.
It appears from your video that each saw has pluses and minuses for a given task, and the finished results depend as well as your experience with that saw type. The main takeaway for me was to let the saw do the work ( I can hear the old man preaching from above) and to have a SHARP saw. Brute force can speed up a cut with a bad blade, but it won't get a BETTER cut.
The best saw is the saw that is sharp and that you have at hand when you need it.
Agree with all that, and the safety gear.
As I watched this video I was trying to remember the last time I used a hand saw?! Needless to say I'm not a cabinet maker or even a particularly good joiner, but I am all about the power, convenience and less effort power tools afford me, so I'm probably not within the demographic this video is aimed at, but I enjoy all of Stumpy's videos none the less!
You are a scholar and should teach advanced shop class!
You utilize many pedagogical techniques to get your point across, perhaps instinctively, which makes for an excellent educational video.
Thank you!
Keep it up!
I was taught to use hack saws in push until I cut a bolt and pushed my hand into the sharp steel. I now use hack saws with the blades backwards in pull.
Thanks James!
I've got a couple old hand saws, one crosscut and one rip. Haven't gotten them off their hooks in years.
The pull saw looks easier to control and leaves a cleaner cut. If I was using a saw for fine cuts like stuff for joinery I think I'd prefer the pull saw. But I have very little experience with either. I use power tools, but would like to get more into hand tools. Great video, as always.
as someone with hand tremors, not much strength and who doesn't love hunching over and making my back hurt, pullsaws just make more sense. far less effort involved, especially if your blade is nice and sharp and you start the cut right. and i can sit/stand straight while doing it!
Caitlin, I find I do mostly hand tool work since my tremors and bad back intervened. I'm using a higher bench than in my past shops which helps avoid bending so much. Still love my Disstons as I said in my post, but use pull saws as much as possible. Be well and happy.
So, we have a lot of choices. I'm happy with that. Cool Video!
Well, let me tell you a couple secrets.
You use pull saws for stuff above you and push saws for stuff below you. The Japanese style saw was so that 2 or 3 people could use it at the same time on a pole. Get a couple really fine Silky concave and try em out on the same test.
During many years in the Far East, I have watched builders and cabinetmakers use the Japanese saws. They are used when standing, sitting, kneeling, or any other position that might be required for the work. I never have seen any, even for working with large logs, that were designed for more than one user at a time.
Armchair woodworkers can argue all they want in the comments and online forums. In the end, it's empirical evidence that matters. And as usual, the answer is "it depends". Always use the tool that works best for you. Thanks for sharing!
And that doesn't even get into various bow saws, which also can have a variety of blades available and tend to be setup for either dual or pulling stroke. And for fine work coping saws allow a lot of flexibility to do contour as well as straight cuts.
I greatly preferred the "It took 15 (24, 19) strokes to do this job" to "I like this one better than that one style of comparison. Good reporting. Keep it up.
If you want good old fashioned rip saws, go to Thomas Flinn in the UK. Saws made in Sheffield, England. Pax, Lynx, Greaves, Roberts and Lee.. All resharpenable.
I am inpressed with the modern Dewalt performance. It performed way better than I expected, and it has a short blade.
It would be interesting to compare the quality of the cuts with speed/no. of cuts. I bet the modern saw does ok in that as well.
I still love my old vintage hand saws even if they are outdated.
Great information.
I've been using Shark Corp pull saws for a long time. I find the finish smoother and because a pull saw is under tension when cutting the steel can be thinner and hence less material is removed due to the narrower kerf.
I like pull saws for wood work and push for construction... But in the end they all have been replaces with reciprocation saws, skill saws, band saws, miter saws... you get the picture
The pull saws did appear to leave a more finished cut, with less tearout, even though they might have taken a few more strokes (except in the "muscled" example, which was impressive).
But I suppose if you're not concerned about the fineness of the cut on ripping, you might be able to get it done in one "stroke"--with an ax... ;D
Another great, informative video! Time to blow the dust off my dozuki and pull-cut some dovetails!
To me a lot of it can be about what's more comfortable or enjoyable to use. If you're doing hand work, regardless of speed, you want a clean cut and a comfortable tool
From a material's perspective, pull saws use the saws material more efficiently. Steel behaves better with tensile forces compared to compressive forces when unsupported. Hence, the better kerf to blade ratio, which can be used for a smaller, more accurate kerf and more force from the user while maintaining stability in the cut. You're more likely to cut smoothly with a pull saw rather than burn it with pinch spots as the push saw flexes, especially in an untrained hand.
But in trained hands the push saw gives you much more control... It's a give and take on that score...
@@ZeoCyberG what control is needed, with a pull saw you have 2 points, the cut and your hands and the tensile forces will keep a straight line between. With a push saw the compressive forces even with a good hand can only match a pull saws control.
@@timwatterson8060 Lots of control can be needed. Since, not every cut is going to be between just 2 points and not everyone gets the cut perfect on the first try... If you have to correct or do a more complex cut then that's easier with a push saw. The advantage of the pull saw is it doesn't require that much skill to just cut a straight line, which makes it better for beginners.... So reality is they both have their pros and cons and people also just have their preferences...
In your riptest, the disston also cut straight, while the ryoba wandered. This is my experience. This is why I didnt switch to Japanese saws- I haven't learned to control them. The cleanness of cut is different though. I do use a dozouki occasionally when I need a fine small cut.
The Ryoba didn't wander, I just didn't bother making sure I started it on a straight path. In fact, the very slight set of a Japanese saw makes it wander less than many Western saws. That can be good if you start the saw straight, or bad if you need to make an adjustment mid-cut.
I bought my first Japanese saw in 1964 while I was in Japan. I just bought it as a novelty, with no intention of ever using it. Years later when I started woodworking I dug it out. I bought an entire set. In actuality I really only used the Japanese saws for detail work that couldn't be accomplished with power saws. Learning to sharpen them wasn't all that much different than sharpening anything else. I enjoy hand woodworking, it's not about speed. But I will still use power equipment when it is the easiest to get done what I want. Some of the greatest wood designs ever, were by Greene & Greene who were influenced by the Japanese.
You'll note that when you get to the larger saws, they are almost invariably pull cutters. It's not really about speed, it's just that a blade under tension stays straighter more easily, and that's important on a 6 foot cross-cut saw.
So why are a lot of saws set to cut on the push? Well, because back when they were designed that hand saw would have been used for just about everything. A saw that cuts on the push needs less space to get started because it can cut its way into small gaps. Also, when you're working from the side that will be on display any splinters go out the back where they're not visible. And for most construction, you'll find yourself usually working from the display side, because it's hard to work from the inside of a wall. :D
In my experience people seem to think that whatever they're using for their work, is the best for everything and everyone else too.
I use western and japanese saws for different purposes, because of the nature of the saws I have access to.
And as long as it gets the job done - who really cares? =)
Nice answer either way it gets the job done
I'll rarely use things that are this esoteric. That said, I sure do love a good nerdy dive into a trade to understand the thought processes that drive decisions by people far more skilled than I.
I have to admit in over 20 years I haven't used pull saw or push saw. We use saws that cuts both ways. I don't know if it's advantage or disadvantage but that is the saw I have learned to use for all my cutting needs. Obviously diferant thickness and size and shape and length for different purposes.
How much of the video did you watch before commenting?
A key factor in all this is that western saws are more forgiving of how you hold the workpiece. You can jam the plank under your knee, against a fence post, or under the crook of your arm and it's relatively easy to counteract the force of the blade. With pull saws - and particularly for taking advantage of the two-handed approach - you need a properly clamped piece of wood because your large body forces (movement of your torso) are generally acting to pull the workpiece away from the thing you have the workpiece braced against. That's why it can feel quicker to use a western saw - you can get to cutting faster with less setup for the cut.
That may be true for rough cuts, but using your body to counter the path of the blade is not a recipe for a finish-quality cut, nor for fine joinery cuts.
@@StumpyNubs That's kind of implied by the holding it against the fence post and under your arm. :D For those times you've got a quick notch to cut or crosscut to do while out in the field, it might be the only option.
I find that I can get more accurate saw cuts with a Japanese style saw than a western style saw so I tend to grab one of those first. And, I really don't care about speed--if I needed to be in a hurry for some odd reason, one of the power saws is likely to be the answer.
That said, the more accurate cut, regardless of which saw you've used to get it, will also take less time to get to the final dimension so I think that needs to be part of any discussion about speed.
And what works better for me is not necessarily what will work better for you.
Lastly, I think good technique with a good quality saw of either style is more important than which style you use.
As usual, a well presented and thought out video, thank you!
I like the finish cut a pull saw gives me also I have better control with a pull saw over a push saw, but that's me.
Fascinating! I personally have always found push saws awkward, more likely to bow and flex than cut, but I have done very little hand saw work (and honestly mostly cutting Christmas trees). My first pull saw is a bargain one (an Irwin Marples I got on sale for $10) but I figured it is worth a try. Can't be worse than the Harbor Freight one I was considering 😉
i say that both styles have there uses
finish/cut orientation/etc. is what you need to look at to decide on the correct saw
use what is the most applicable to the situation
All the cuts from the eastern saws are really clean though, even with aggressive cuts.
Interesting video. I'd argue that the ryoba is not only fast being used aggressively but it leave a superior surface. All the cut you made with the Diston's and the Dewalt had serious blow out on the far side of the cut.
You have to have the right size ryoba for the job. I noticed that when you did the aggressive cut you looked like you were using a 300mm blade. That's what I will use for 2x material. A 240 mm cant be used so hard but it's not mean for that. You should get yourself a maebiki if you want serious aggression ;) plus they look great hanging on your shop wall.
I wondered if you had any comments about the total 'effort' required, since I find that the Japanese saws allow a much more 'relaxed' work effort... also, the cut quality was night & day.
THX
two handed sounds nice to me! i had no idea that was an option
Farmer, carpenter, tinkerer, bit of everything.
Do it right or don't do it at all is what I constantly say (on a sign hanging in the workshop too!)! I can see how western saws would be better for speed and mass production though I never thought for a minute eastern style saws could ever hope to compete but I almost never use them because - quality first, and foremost. Only time I ever need to cut big and fast is usually raw lumber and I usually just use a chainsaw for that.
Counting strokes is probably as good a way as any to try to compare these, but it does ignore some important factors. Length of stroke is pretty important too. Elapsed time would be another alternative. Jigsaws and sawzalls cut on the pull stroke... imagine if they had Japanese style blades (or perhaps it should be teeth?)
It is impossible to do a truly scientific test with as many variables as this has, so I was not trying to.
@@StumpyNubs Sure it is! That would require making a proper mechanical test rig to apply constant downward pressure and stroke length. You'd eliminate the imprecise movements of the hand, the preference for push or pull, get a precise constant stroke length and applied pressure. Fireball tools channel has a video where they use a Cincinnati shaper machine to test if dragging a metal file on the backstroke dulls it. The setup they used looks perfect for Japanese style vs western style saw performance comparison.
One thing that stands out though - regardless of speed, Japanese pullsaws leave a much cleaner cut. Would not use that DeWalt saw even for rough work as I'd have to leave more material for longer offcuts due to bad tearout, loosing valuable timber and time, maybe for firewood it's useable. The freshly sharpened Disston was better, but still nowhere near the cut quality of a budget ryoba or kataba. One could argue You don't even need rough dimensioning and then a finishing cut with a Japanese saw, You really can just cut the board to it's final length, saving You way more time and material than using a western style push saw.
You did a very good job of pointing out how both western and Japanese saws perform making fast cuts. I am a hybrid woodworker and would probably perform those fast cuts on a chop saw or a table saw. Where I use hand saws is when I need an accurate cut, such as cutting dove tails. When cutting those accurate cuts I tend to favor westerns saws. I would like to see and hear a comparison of both styles of saws where a precise cut is needed. Maybe you have already covered this subject, if so I would appreciate a link to the video. As always you really did a comprehensive job of covering the subject at hand. Keep it up.
If you watched this whole video you saw a comparison in speed while making fine joinery cuts. I also discussed precision in the other video, which I linked to at the top of the comments section.
So, we now have questions related to tooth count, tooth shape, saw length, how much time versus how many strokes and finish of the cut. It seems clear from your videos that the Dewalt style saw is probably a great choice for general work like house framing, but anyone doing any kind of woodworking where the quality and accuracy of the cut matter, the Japanese saws are miles ahead.
Enjoyed the video as I always do. But I don't understand why this is something we would care to debate. For me, it's always the quality and precision of the cut I care about. The time I spend cutting with handsaws - and I have both Disstons and Japanese-style saws in my till - is immaterial. I choose the saw for the wood, dimension and type of cut. Sometimes, simply because I haven't picked this one up for awhile and I like its feel. I know, easy for me to say. After all, at 69, retired and with a bad back, production speed is just not a consideration for me as it is for others. But kissing the line, leaving a clean, square cut line and avoiding splitting off the edge on a crosscut are. If I was primarily or even significantly concerned with speed, I'd use a machine. Thanks for the ideas and the forum.
Well you answered yourself there either the third sentence, you said “for you”, there’s lots of different saws with different characteristics for different jobs with many different materials.
There’s a million variables, many of them can’t be controlled, but one you can control and change is the tool. Another huge variable is the user, what works for you might not work at all for me, but that doesn’t mean I get a free pass to not do that part just cuz I can’t get it right!
I’ve gotta either change/improve my technique or find a different tool!
Also, it’s RUclips, a good percentage of viewers here will have never actually touched a saw! Or they could be like me, I’ve literally never bought a hand saw, but since I’m a farmer you better believe I’ve had to saw a lot of stuff! I’d just grab any OLD saw… I’d heard Japanese saws were nice but how would I know… they don’t seem ideal for storing in the barn, or throwing on the wagon when I need to run fence.
It’s probably not ideal to treat a western saw that way either… but here I am using the same tools my grandad did.
Nobody says you MUST be concerned with speed, but there are plenty of reasons why one may wish to consider it when choosing a tool. Speed can equate to less energy expended. It can also make a significant difference in the time it takes to dovetail a chest full of drawers or any number of other tasks. That said, there are many other factors to consider besides speed such as precision, comfort, quality, etc. These were covered in the other video: ruclips.net/video/PZdoLx72faM/видео.html.
It is also worth remembering that not all of the fastest cuts in this video were rough cuts. The rough dimensional cuts may have been, but the joinery cuts were not. There is a time for both types of cuts and a bit more speed does not always equate to a poor result.
@@StumpyNubs Understand and respect your position. I reply to your videos based on my own needs and preferences. I no longer build cabinets and such for others and with my back will never do house carpentry again so for me, speed isn't an issue. I'm also not a perfections in any Cosmanesque thousandths-of-an-inch kind of way. I'm more of a Paul Sellers kind of woodworker at this point in my life's journey. As I said, though, I really enjoy your take on things and frankly, of the channels to which I subscribe, yours and Paul's are the two I always look for.
Thank you sir
Never would have thought of it this way, but it all makes sense. All of the saws I use at work as an arborist are pull-cut, largely for practicality. It would be virtually imposible to get a clean, proper pruning cut from the far end of even a six foot pole saw, or stretching out to my limit if I was climbing.
Even if it's not exactly a go-to tool, I find it much easier to get a precise cut on the bottom 'pull' side of a chainsaw bar, rather than the top 'push' side.
I've always viewed the difference to more about quality of cut and ease of cut rather than speed. To me, speed has more to do with teeth per inch.
The quality difference (to me) comes from the fact that in a PULL saw, the force/resistance helps keep the blade on track, and more importantly, straight. In a PUSH saw, the direction of the force/resistance is contrary to keeping the blade straight, as the you are pushing a thing piece of steel into the wood. This action will tend to "bend" the blade slightly (and sometimes a lot).
This is how I've always viewed it since my father taught me how to use Japanese saws when I was a kid - he was second generation Japanese and a carpenter growing up in Hawaii. He used both types depending on what he was doing. For rough/fast cuts, he used pull saws, as the ones he had used a more aggressive tooth pattern. If the quality of the cut mattered, he would use his pull saws (mostly Ryoba).
Another great video!
Also look at the effort per cut, including stroke length (not just stroke count). If doing multiple cuts, that's going to add up. The pull-saws have a narrower kerf, so I would think there's less energy taken turning wood into sawdust.
Might find the Shark pull-saw interesting. Japanese style with replaceable blades.
And do wear a respirator (I like 3M 6300 which is XL, I think 6200 is L, 6100 is S) with a P95 or P100 filter. They're around $40. New lungs run considerably more than that. Who wants tiny splinters in their lungs?