JAPANESE SAW vs. WESTERN SAW...One Small Difference Separates Hand Saws...But Which Should You Buy?!
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- Опубликовано: 15 апр 2023
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JAPANESE SAW vs. WESTERN SAW...One Small Difference Separates Hand Saws...But Which Should You Buy?!
Most carpentry newcomers don't seem to know the difference between Western hand saws and Japanese hand saws. This short video will explain how hand saws really work!
Western hand saws tend to cut on the push stroke, because they have forward-raking teeth.
Japanese hand saws tend to cut on the pull stroke, because they have back-raking teeth.
Furthermore, Japanese saws have two serrated cutting edges to the blade. The edge with the lower tooth count (Teeth Per Inch) is often for ripping, or rip cutting. The edge with the higher tooth count is often for crosscutting.
Traditionally, Western saws were divided between ripping saws and crosscutting saws.
More recently though, Western hand saws have been made with "tri-ground" teeth. Essentially, these teeth are ground or beveled on three sides, and they don't rake or lean quite as steeply.
So, Western hand saws still primarily cut on the pull stroke, but they're also more effective now in cutting in both directions. They're essentially a combination saw.
Thanks for watching!
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Japanese saws also produce a smaller kerf, which can be useful as well. I've been using them for a while and they've been much easier for me to work with than western saws. It took getting used to cutting on the pull stroke.
Some back saws, western push saws with spines along the back, cut a nearly as fine kerf like dovetail saws. But generally they are a bit wider than pulls saws.
Cutting on the pull stroke does not require as thick a blade as cutting on the push stroke.
They don't require as thick of a plate, true. But I can compare my Veritas dovetail saw very finely set with my Suizan Dozuki and the difference in kerf width isn't drastically different.
Was gifted a cheap Japanese saw, and I love it. I really don't have much use for my western saw anymore, even for rough cuts like removing tree limbs. The thinner kerf makes my Japanese saw cut like a hot knife through butter while it takes roughly twice as much effort to make the same cut with my western saw. Part of that may be my lack of strength and skill.
Good video. But one thing to note is that not all Japanese saws have teeth on both sides. A Ryoba (like the one you showed) has teeth on both sides, one for ripping and the other for cross cutting, but a Dozuki only has teeth on one side. I use my Dozuki for dovetails and other fine cuts (it has a thin kerf), while the Ryoba is more general purpose. I have a Kataba as well, which has teeth on one side, and is more for deeper cuts. And my Japanese flush cut saw has teeth on both sides, one side for hard wood and the other for softer woods.
The biggest plus to these saws is the muscles used to operate them. A Japanese saw engagement uses one half of your back. It’s a large and very strong muscle group. Putting work across that large group makes it a must for a camp saw.
The Wester saws are a very touchy saw to get started but with a little practice they can fly through a large log. Great for quiet camping when cutting fire wood. There is a technique for every tool.
I find my western saws do a great job in most cases but I bought a Japanese saw because when I saw its use in close cutting like when tips of dowels need to be cut off without damaging the face of the wood it's great for these uses. I would never replace one style saw with the other but I personally believe both types of saws are a necessity in woodworking just as much as a coping saw and hand saw have their ideal uses good video
I'll never go back to push stroke saws. Feels unnatural to me and is tiring.
Japanese saws are awesome
I used to think the same until I picked up vintage pre WW2 saws. You can also pick up new premium lie Nielsen or veritas for the same quality. If they are properly sharpened and set, they are great tools.
Big box store hardened saws are garbage compared to these.
As a kid I did some projects (soapbox racers and the like) with my dad's tools, and I always wondered about the awkward push stroke on his saws. Unnatural, that's exactly the right word. But at the time I was sure I must be using the tool wrong. These days I have a couple of Japanese saws... when I first started using them I was amazed: why are we not making saws like this?
For those beginners who have trouble remembering which way and the teeth numbers.
Look at the number of letters in the words,
Rip = few letters= few teeth
Crosscut= more letters, more teeth
Hope this helps.
I have rip saws with more teeth than my crosscut saws. It's the geometry of the teeth, not the number.
@@UserNameAnonymous I was speaking about table saw blades. And there are exceptions to almost everything.
@@a9ball1 - ah. I was talking about hand saws. Cheers.
The number of teeth isn't actually inherent to either rip or crosscut saws. It is the tooth geometry that makes them different. Rip saws have square teeth that all have bevels that point in line with the cut, while crosscut saws have teeth that cut at angles that are slightly off from being in line with the cut to sever the end grain.
@@garethbaus5471 not saws but table saw blades.
I bought my first Japanese Pull-Saw probably about 30 plus years ago. It was at a tool show and those saws have been selling like crazy. I really like it for more than one reason. They cut very smooth, in general you don't even have to sand the edges. I also found out that it is easier to pull straight than to push straight.
One thing I also noticed: the pulling action of japanese saws pulls the blade straight, while the pushing action on western saws tries to bend the blade, especially if you get stuck on something. Because of this the blade of the japanese saw can also be thinner without generating too many issues.
I have both but prefer the action of the Japanese saw when it comes to accuracy and how clean the final cut is. Also, the Japanese blade doesn’t bind near as much. It’s far easier to pull a cart through the sand than push it.
Japan didn't have much iron, so any iron that they had was needed for swords, arrowheads, spear-heads, and tools. Iron could not be wasted on nails. As a result, Japan developed an entire universe of joinery methods that did not use nails. There are many youtubes displaying the types of Japanese joints and the techniques needed to achieve them. Like you, I have both types of saws, and after having a Japanese saw available, I can't imagine not having one.
I was going to say the same thing! Apparently the quality of steel that the Japanese had was poor, and in small quantities. The technique of folding the metal so many times when making a katana was originally to try and overcome these limitations.
For small DIY a good idea is also to get the handle for reciprocating saw blades. Got myself Bosch s922 and honestly for cutting smaller pieces of metal, wood or plastic its amazing for its size.
Western saws work in compression, so they have to have thicker steel so they'll not buckle so easily when they're pushed. Japanese saws work in tension so the steel does not have to be so thick because there's no chance of buckling it when it's cutting the wood on the pull stroke, though it can happen on the forward stroke if you don't keep to the line of the cut. Thinner steel means a narrower kerf so you're removing less material with the cut, which makes it quicker to get through the wood. I've been using Japanese saws since the 1970s and I'd never go back to Western saws. They's also smaller than Western saws so easier to carry around and store. The only drawback is they need some extra skill to sharpen compared to the Western saw.
Not all Japanese saws have teeth on both sides. Some have a spine on the back side for increased stiffness, and are purposed for either crosscutting or rip.
for example, I have a Silky Bigboy, which is pretty thick (and long) and was designed to remove branches and other larger tasks like that. Ukrainian bushcraft channels gave me the idea to buy one, and I don't regret it a bit.
Yes. And not all western style saws have a triangular plate - backsaws have a rectangular plate. (some, most I know at least) Gent's saws even have a long thin handle, not a D-shaped one.
The western saw is suited for the way western carpenters used to work mainly by placing timbers on saw horses and using their body weight to keep the plank steady by kneeling with one knee on the plank so a forward cutting saw would cut with the weight applied thus the plank would be held steadier. A pull saw in that instance would mean you would be easing your body weight on the pull up resulting in unwanted vibrations. Not all western saws are used forward cutting, coping and fret saws are generally used backward being frame backed saws forward cutting would ease the frame tension. Jewellers piercing saws are also used backwards the item of jewellery being cut is held in what is referred to as a “jewellers vice” a wedge piece of wood with a Vee cut into it. The work is held across the Vee and the saw is used vertically cutting on the downward stroke thus pressing the work down on the vice making it easier to hold steady.
After seeing many videos on RUclips where they used Japanese style saws, I decided to invest in an expensive $10 Harbor Freight Japanese saw. 😂 I love that thing and haven’t used my western saw in years. The Harbor Freight saw might not be a great saw for a professional, and seeing how I only use a saw a few times every other month, the $10 has been a great investment! 😂
Nice explanation. I've always wanted to know. I've always marveled at the control they seem to have when doing all those various joints and the ease at which they seem to do them.
Wow I had no idea on the cutting dynamics of either one! Thanks for sharing your knowledge 👍🏼
You have such great product information. I’m updating my saw collection after seeing your video! Thank you.😊
Actually useful and to the point information, this guy is great!
7 years stationed in Japan, I've used both and a must for any home shop
Thanks Ethan. I got my first Japanese saw a couple of years ago and I really like it. I just signed up for the newsletter and look forward to hearing more about upcoming classes that you are working on. Cheers
Really detailed and well explained!
You got yourself a new follower :)
I got the cheap HF Japanese saw when I needed to make one particular cut. I’ve found it useful several times. Isn’t really worth it for me to invest in a nice one but I like having that blade in the shop.
Thank you for being such an honest and great teacher as a knowledgeable veteran carpenter. It's hard to find honest people and learning information can be so difficult and daunting for beginners
Nice summary, and I love both styles, especially as Erik The Viking notes when you want a finer kerf. Great to see you back on RUclips!
Thanks for the great video. Hubby and I decided to order both Japanese saws through your links to Amazon.
Been seeing those Japanese saws and wondered how they were. Thank you for this informative video describing the uses of it. Thank you also for the link. There is a 40% off coupon so I got it for a little over $14. Can’t wait to try it out. Thanks again
Congratulations on the new website! Will definitely get on over there and subscribe!
Simple and clear, thanks for sharing it
Thanks for the reminder! I just purchased my Japanese saw that I had on my list for a while. 👍
1:29 describing the serrated edge activates ‘hey siri’ on my iPad as it’s playing this video 😂
Having viewed some interesting videos on actual Japanese furniture makers, I knew of the Japanese saw, but had no idea it was a thing in America. Very interesting.
very informative. Can't wait for your full-on training, that you mentioned in your previous video
Good comparison, Japanese saws definitely have advantages and benefits especially when fine precision cuts are needed. I agree with Nathan in that for low volume fast cutoff work, a high quality sharp western saw is my preference. I can make 2-3 cuts in less time than it takes to find my power saw and and extension cord. Use of Western saws takes practice to develop the feel and rhythm needed for making efficient straight cuts. It's worth the effort, once learned you have a life long skill.
Congratulations you already have 740K subscribers. I started watching your channel 4 yrs. You only have less than 10K subscribers by that time. I learned a lot from your videos thank you
As ever, a really good, informative video. Thank you 👍
Thank you for making this video. I knew all of that about the American D Shaped Handled Saw but I didn't know anything about the Japanese Saw. I have always hated the push on the D Style Saw because I never get a good clean start. Call it Impatience or A.D.D. or Something Else.
Very well explained . Nice Job.
I've been thinking about getting a Japanese saw. Now that the purpose and differences have been explained, I'm definitely getting one! Also, subscribed to the newsletter! Thank you!
You should get a Japanese saw, they are great to use.
I knew all this, but I still watched it all the way through. Because that's how awesome your vids are.
Thank you, Greg! 😁
Nice overview. Thank you.
It took me a while to get the knack of the Japanese saws because I was so used to handling a Western, I was pushing down on the push stroke and relaxing on the pull, like for a Western. The cut seemed slow and I kept buckling the blade. Then I realized I had it backward. It can take a while to relearn the action., but when you do, it makes a world of difference.
Also, I'm sure you know, but didn't mention that the blade is tapered to enhance the force for each type of saw, so less downward pressure is needed.
Didn’t know that, Terry! Thank you!
I was taught by a elder carpenter to point your index finger towards the tip of a western style push saw as this keeps you from over gripping and inducing bend in the saw as you push through the cutting stroke.
I own both of those types of hand saws and love both.
Appreciate the clear explanations, thanks. I noticed something you didn't mention, the triangle on each saw tapers toward the direction of the cut. Another way to think of this is the comment about how the saws are the same, but the handles are on the opposite side. 😁
I'm curious what you think about this? I wonder if the angle in relation to the handle provides additional power in the stroke type, so the cut moves from the narrow side to the wide side of the blade.
Many Japanese saws have teeth with no “set” to them. That means they are not leaning to the side. These saws with tooth set are great for flush cutting dowels, etc. while preventing scratching the face of the wood. There are some Western saws that have no tooth set, but they are still more difficult to use for flush cutting.
Welcome back 🙂. I also watch Michael Alm, he uses the Japanese saws a lot, as well as wooden mallets/ dowels. Thanks for your review/ information 🙂.
Shivering black bell thumbs up.
Great information! Thanks!
Thanks man, never knew the cutting direction, that is why I always had issues with using hand saw
👍😁
Excellent video! Very informative.
Excellent video. I learned something new. Super, to the point video. Thank you. I'm signing up.
Another huge advantage to eastern saws is that when the blade is worn out it can be replaced instead of needing to be resharpened.
How is replacing a blade as opposed to resharpening it possibly an advantage?
@@1pcfred time is money? It takes skill and knowledge to sharpen a blade? A broken or damaged blade that can't be replaced renders a tool useless? Modern western saws aren't made to be resharpened?
@@BeauChampion time is not money. We're not quite sure what time is but it most certainly is not money. But if you want to adopt the attitude that time is in fact money then why are you wasting your time using hand tools? I know why I work with tools. I find it all time well spent. I enjoy developing skills and gaining knowledge. But I guess that's not for everyone. I've ground the teeth completely off a saw plate and cut new ones into it. I take special pleasure in using tools I've made or modified. That adds to it for me. It is something no money can buy.
It’s fascinating how different cultures design & use tools & make various joints. I‘ve seen people use various tools to make some very strong joints without using nails or screws. They seem tedious to do but definitely worth it as I’m sure they’ll last for a long time. That’s not my thing but your expertise is definitely helpful & informative. I’d be willing to steer those who are your way.
Thank you, Bill! 😄
Hola! 🖐A "quick and dirty" refresher on these two saws but as always, extremely informative. Thanks for the explanation. Good luck on all of your upcoming endeavors. Take care and have a good one, Adios! 👊
Thank you, Grampies! 😁
I've used both, the ergonomics of pull saws aren't my cup of tea. I enjoy the ergonomics of a quality western style. Cheap western saws feel clunk and awkward but well made ones fit the hand very well.
As always great info especially for us newbies!
Excellent comparison video, as ever.👍🏻
3:36 Or you grind down the teeth nearest the handle, so that they gradually remove more material, until the teeth reach full size. All you really need is about 1/4" of flat blade and 1/2" of gradual tooth length to get you started. Works like a charm for me.
I really love woodworking with hand tools and something that is definitely different between Japanese and Western saws it that Japanese saws have a teeth profile that it´s almost impossible to resharpen while some Western saws are be easily resharpen with a triangular file, if the teeth are not too small (less than 15 tpi) and the teeth are not hardened, which is sadly uncommon in the saws you find in hardware stores. You really have to look for saws that can be resharpen if that's what you are looking for.
What a helpful explainer. Subscribed!
Thank you Ethan! Learned something new.
I'm doing an insane amount of learning trying to pick out a hand saw for 2x4s but the design of the Japanese saw makes sense... I have a little corded jig saw I thought I would use for my project, and read that a reverse blade would give me a cleaner cut. So I would assume the same is true for a hand saw.
I am a small person and don't have a lot of strength for traditional sawing, just wasn't built like that... I'm thinking that will be less of an issue with the Japanese saw... Hoping that's the case!
When I started carpentry, I always went to my ridged back dovetail saws for any finish work....cause the ridged back must work better cause its ridged, and that's what my mentor taught me. The Japanese floppy saw was only good for cutting flush against the workpiece like with wood pins and protruding dowls cause it was floppy. Until I needed to do some finish work, but didn't have my dovetail, it was out for sharpening. So I, reluctantly used the Japanese saw. Yeah, haven't used by dovetail saw since then.
I always learn so much watching your channel.
Japanese saws I have heard, pull the spirit of the wood towards you. This is something deeply instilled in the Japanese people.
🙋♂️THANKS ETHAN,🤗 I HONESTLY HAVE NOT USED A JAPANESE SAW …BEFORE I RETIRED BUT I WOULD GET ONE NOW 👍💚💚💚
Good job! Fantastic video.
I can't explain it, but *without marking,* I can cut a 2x4 almost perfectly square with a Ryoba saw, but never in all my years could I do that with a Western saw. I think light powerful, thin kerf, handy, cordless saws combined with Japanese saws spell the end of Western saws. May they rust in peace! I came here spoiling for an argument on the finer points of saws but got a basic primer for the 100th time. Good job, but geared for novices. 😁
I did ont know this Ethan...well explained video. thank you - Cheers!
Thank you- super interesting!!!
As a retired Carpenter with over 40 years using Western saws. I find it almost impossible to use a Japanese saw. When I started there were no hardpoint saws designed to not be sharpened. We carried a range of saws from ripper to tenon. And regularly set and sharpened all. You even changed the set for wet wood. Again the saws designed to cut both directions. I can't even begin to cut a piece of wood with. There were few power tools when I started. We cut nearly everything with hand saws on site. We were taught early on how to properly use a Western saw. The action is so ingrained in my brain and muscle memory I can't use anything else without a struggle. Japanese saws in the Western world are a relatively new fad. Like anything if that is what you start with. Or only use infrequently. All good, they work. For people like me. I have managed for 60 years using a pusher. Won't change now.
Love your work mate!🎉
I didn't know Raikonnen doing this after retirement. 😅
By the way great explanation.
I always use the Japanese one for delicate cutting.
Very informative, Ethan, thanks for sharing the information!
Japanese saws tend to make a thin sheet of plywood judder as it is pulled away from the support. Otherwise good.
Great for trimming doors bottoms without removing them.
Great video. I have both types but find myself gravitating to the Japanese saw more often. I don't know if it's my imagination, but the teeth on the Japanese saw seem sharper and the steel higher quality.
It'd be great if you did a video on how to shop for Western saw. The European version I have seems to last much longer than the brands sold at the Big Box stores.
it's not your imagination because japanese are masters at making knives and samurai swords. their knives are highly sought after in the chef world as well. it only makes sense that they're going to be very good at making saws as well and using high quality steel.
I've got a dozen western saws, (at least and maybe a dozen Japanese saws. If I want to cut a two by four, I'd reach for the western saws, but I was not raised with japanese saws. I've been using saws for 60+ years, and experience gives me good control with a western saw. I'd say in my experience, few people really know how to cut straight with handsaws anymore. I'm more of a cabinetmaker than a construction worker. I admit I use chop saws and table saws more than handsaws. But for small work, cutting notches, etc....I'll reach for the Japanese saws every time. Much finer detail, more accurate. I can cut THRU a line, one one side of a line etc. Sure a western backsaw, a fine one, can do that, but not as easily, not as quickly. Japanese saws are frankly easier to gain skill using than western saws.
I have found out the Japanese pull saws make a nice smooth cut on pvc. But like all manual saw, you have your form and position rite to make a strait cut with them
Thanks great job on your video
Thanks Ethan
Hmmm … for me the critical difference is that the Western saw cuts on a compression stroke while the Japanese saw cuts on a tension stroke. The Western saw has to be thicker and heavier to avoid bending while the tension stroke avoids that problem and can be thinner. Of course, the thinner saw has a smaller kerf and when you include the tooth design differences between the two we end up with a faster cut, smaller kerf and less work.
Wow great job. Awesome video.
Yeah, I’m done with push saws any time I can avoid it. Got a few pull saws for small detailing and larger cuts and they’re awesome.
Japanese saws definitely emphasize control and precision. And are less tiring. As HC pointed out it’s much easier to start a cut with them. Two cons: they are slower at ripping and they are quite delicate; it’s easy to bend the blade if one is careless.
This is all true. The thinner kerf makes them much more flexible. You can feel the wobble if your stroke isn’t well aligned, and you can really bend one with a hard push 👍
Because they cut on the pull you should not be pushing hard, lift gently and wait to put power into the pull. Because the blade is doing the work on the pull it can’t bend. Imagine a piece of string - you can’t push it in a straight line but as you pull it, it will automatically straighten.
The most important difference is the Japanese or 'pull' saw blade is much thinner steel, and for that reason has to be pulled to stop it buckling, this thinner kerf is why it make such fine cuts.
Japanese saw has smaller kerf, which means less force during the same cut depth. Blade stays straighter because it is in tension. Edges are smoother, so less sanding. I haven't used my western saw in 20 years. It looks like a relic.
You'll get better finish at the top side of the workpiece with a western saw and the bottom side with a Japanese saw.
I find that the Japanese saw produces a better, and higher precision cut because there is more control
Do you find you get a cleaner controlled straighter cut with one or the other?
I started using pull saws 35 years ago and have never looked back. I tossed my push saws in the garbage.
Thanks for the breakdown! Succinct, as usual...
One quick question (though I probably *know* the answer - still, want your perspective on it...) ~
If your workshop already has, say, at least a circular saw and a jigsaw... why would it even *require* a handsaw (Western or Japanese, irrespective)?
And a corollary query... a hackaw *also* cuts on the thrust, right? So, is that "kind of" equivalent to a Japanese saw?
The dual cutting edges of ryoba saws are an attribute of only one of at least half a dozen different kinds of Asian pull saws. Most Japanese saws have a single cutting edge, some with a reinforced spine like a European backsaw, others with no back, for flexibility and depth of cut.
I have always hated standard Western saws, because I could never get them to cut well. Pushing the blade gives rise to a tendency for the blade to bend or bow between the handle and the cut - this reduces the efficiency, and can sometimes even damage the saw. By contrast, pull saws will never bend on the cutting stroke, as the blade is under tension throughout. It *is* still possible for the blade to bend on the return stroke, but this is much less likely as the wood resistance is lower, and the operator usually uses less power.
The best advantage for a wester saw is the direction of the anvil. Much easier to saw downward at table than upward.
Japanese saws are thinner as well. Because they cut on the pull stroke they don't need to be as thick.
I find that Japanese saws are easier to use--so they require less skill--for occasional users, because during the cut stroke the blade is under tension, whereas a Western saw tends to flex and bind in the kerf.
I've noticed that Japanese saws have little or usually no offset, so the cut is the same thickness as the blade......
I agree with your comments. Great video 👍
It's actually due to overall shape of blade. Both are trapezoid. You want to start cutting with narrower part of blade and push/pull wider part "through" material at slight angle for extra downward force. Teeth orientation is not reason, but result of intended cutting direction. This is why straight saws (like hacksaws) usually have bi-directional teeth - they have no inherit angle (you move them parallel to blade) and no extra forces pushing teeth down.
Japanese saws are literally reversed Western saws. It's up to debate/preference if You want push or pull blade, both motions have their advantages.
You can use more force when pushing big teeth Western saws (you probably couldn't pull big teeth that easily), but you have more control while pulling smaller teeth Japanese saws.
Near the 1 millon subcribers 👍 great content has always 👍 thank you ...+++