Nah. She just didn't care about the loss of life that's been happening around her probably because the Link itself was infected and dying. So, she was willing to take everything down with her. But that's where she got it wrong. The Link would die, the Jem'Hadaar with no new masters would go into proverbial melt-down (or something to that effect), the Dominion as such would end up collapsing completely. Ships can easily be replaced with replicators, transporters and automation. That's the LEAST of their problem. And while yes, lives would have been lost, every person on those ships knew what they were getting themselves into and knew of the risks. So, while the wounds of the war would linger for a time, eventually, people would recover - and its mostly people on ships would would be in danger of losing their lives - a tiny fraction of the UFP population. Given UFP's overall principles and ideals, there would be plenty of people who would want to join Starfleet. Same applies for the KDF, and other species organisations. Point is, the Dominion ends up crumbling into dust and the Founders cease to exist as we know them.... Dominion crumbles, and then the 'solids' end up winning anyway. She may have thought that she was trying to inflict as much damage as possible, but honestly, its a tiny price to pay, and we know the aliies were willing to go through it if necessary. I'm all for diplomacy, but a bit more interesting comeback would have been even more poignant... and then offering her the cure and a way to save the Link.
@@ChrundleTGreat Watch the scene from M*A*S*H where Hawkeye tells everyone in the OR the difference between war and Hell. He says that war is a lot worse than Hell, because people who are innocent don't go to Hell, but plenty of innocents find themselves in warzones. And if you ask me, he's right. War is war, and Hell is Hell, and of the two, war is a lot worse.
I wish they had chosen to not recycle the occasional space-battle clip in these final battles, I think it would have been better to show less scenes (all new) than have more scenes because of recycled shots mixed in... it kind of cheapened it. The recycled clips were too recognizable.
If they ever remaster DS9 I hope they insist on producing new VFX in place of the recycled footage. I believe the intent was a much larger space battle and to have the beginning of the final battle over Cardassia but the network photon torpedoed their budget for the finale. Still impressive what they were able to do.
@@superzentredi a complete reboot to modern standards would be better cause this kind of story telling doesn't work nowadays you can't throw in a big plot with side missions on the series as they did back in the days, the industry completely changed
@@AgentK-im8ke There are millions of people who CRAVE this kind of story telling to return; it's not for the better that the "industry" has abandoned it.
Not bad for a short foray but I don't think they have much, or rather, are lacking in terms of high volume restrooms like what's needed for extended...treks. 🤪
@Alamandorious babylon 5 had some very interesting concepts, but the execution was clunky. The acting was mostly bad, with the exception of a handful of core actors. It did have some fairly good ship battles but the cgi was very late 80s dated and basic. And the set design was distractingly low quality. The stories had some dramatic moments but the pacing was often slowed down to pad out the time. Some characters were good, mostly the alien characters. I never found any of the humans to be anything more than annoying daytime tv drama level characters. In short, babylon 5 was terrible compared to DS9... and I don't agree that the babylon 5 in any way influenced DS9 or its story. BUT if it did then DS9 did it far better.
Empty...pretty sure the Breen were close to bail out, leaving only the weapon platforms and the Jems vs massive odds, including suicidal Cardassians out for blood and Klingons being Klingons...Feds and Roms would have been mighty fine...
@@davidkay7389 I don't think this counts as a Pyrrhic victory. It's important to the concept that the instigator is the one who wins the Pyrrhic victory. The Federation didn't start the war with the Dominion so the Federation victory isn't Pyrrhic.
and showed that, for all their research, the Dominion knew nothing of Humanity. We'll mourn the dead, we'll build monuments to them. But humanity has never been too hesitant to throw lives at a problem. If anything, the more lives lost, the stronger we rebound as a people
I still prefer TNG. But, I'll freely admit it is far more up and down in terms of quality than DS9. And DS9 does have two of my favorite episodes of any Trek: Duet and By the Pale Moonlight
At the same token, I think she was at the point where she would have done ANYTHING to get Odo to agree to go back and rejoin the Great Link. Even if it meant ending the war against the Alpha Quadrant powers. That above all else has been the Great Link's desire ever since the series began.
That’s not why she surrendered. She surrendered because Odo was ready to return to his people if she ended the war. She always said nothing mattered more than Odo coming home. Not even the entire alpha quadrant.
@@mooncake387 He had nothing at all but the life of a Founder to the Founder is priceless and to be protected at all costs and so why he had nothing his life was worth the whole alpha quadrant to her and the other Founders.
DS9 is the definitive Trek. The storytelling is superb! Acting script sets and costumes aces!! They managed to tell two incredible story arcs while weaving in many standalone episodes. The Sisco arc to demigod status and Odos journey of self discovery and eventual dominion plot were immaculate! Kudos to all involved!
DS9 is peak Star Trek. It's the perfect blend of Star Trek stories and drama without going over-the-top and losing that quintessential Star Trek vibe. Good stuff.
They had a bunch of theater actors, amazing how much skill that gave them to perform so well and immersed themselves. Have you seen the sets with the crew and all?? It's crazy that with like a dozen people watching in front of them their acting doesn't miss a beat when they're just talking to individual characters.
Since the female changeling (Salome Jens) surrendered and agreed to face trial, they should have brought her back as the tortured villain in Season 3 of Picard.
I know the saga of DS9 continued in books like other Trek shows. There was a 2-part book story called ST: Avatar in which the saga took place after the war featuring Captain Picard and crew plus new DS9 characters including Ro Laren as new security chief. Never read the books, but it would've been nice if a live-action movie or miniseries could've been made.
Enterprise Season 3 & 4 were good, too bad it was cancelled when things really started getting going, but because Berman and Braga kept that temporal cold war storyline going for 3 years with it going nowhere and many other terrible season 1 and 2 episodes, people tuned out and never came back, despite it getting better after they were gone.
A Star Trek without constant explosions, fist fights and lots of crying?? In 2024, almost unbelievable. I am happy to be a child of the 80s so I could watch Star Trek in its old, full glory.
Excuse me, this was a war. There was a lot of peace and no war in Star Trek. Please do not live on Violence. Never ends well. And this was not in the 1980's, this was in 1990's.
Imagine next Star Trek show about postDominion world...Alpha quadrant forces is still recovering...new alliance forming...Dominion in a state of chaos since their reputation as invincible force is shattered...Cardassia under Federation protection...Voyager is back home....Federation inspite heavy losses is expanding rapidly since it proove it can emerge victorious in hard conditions...Klingon empire still not stabile..Romulans too but glimpses of brighter future can be seen...Alpha quadrant is exhausted but Alliance between Federation-Klingon-Romulans in war prooved that peace and prosperity in our part of galaxy could be achieved.
They were already straining their budgets at this point, but yes, it would have added so much, especially since the Cardassians would have been champing at the bit to stop the slaughter, and the Romulans would have needed to re-shuffle command due to their flagship being destroyed just in the battle prior.
I was expecting to see some fires on the planet from cities being nuked, the ships don't need to be firing there is plenty of munitions planet side... but at least the casaulties sound correct, the big issue I had with babylon 5 was the humans where basically being slaughtered for 2 years and only suffered 250,000 casaulties, here in a day the Cardassians suffered 800 Million.
It was a prime time TV show, so they couldn't show too much. I'm just glad Ira Steven Behr was able to write the show he wanted to and it was allowed to be as dark as it was. Best Trek show in my opinion.
@davesmith5482 Look at the cost for one season of The Acolyte and it was only 8 episodes. How many episodes was Picard? They can't do even a full season anymore like they did of DS9
It would have been great if in the final stages of the war, when the Dominion and Cardassians were being encircled, smaller Alpha and Beta quadrant powers joined the Federation alliance against the Gamma quadrant invaders. This happened in the later stages of World War 2 when several formerly neutral countries, like those in South America declared war on Germany and Japan (when it seemed certain they were going to lose). It would have been interesting to see some of the many aliens we saw throughout TNG again - some had very formidable ships.
@@recon1055 Not if they actually do something. If some Ferengis and their surprisingly powerful ships managed to destroy some Dominion vessels or those "Darmok" aliens fight some Breen, they should at least receive an invitation to the victory party.
Odo dominated that link with her. Throughout all of DS9, the Female Changeling seemed to be the strongest. I can imagine the conversation between these two during the link. He agreed to cure their people, but she's totally submissive when Odo was finished. I love how the Changeling they cast aside, even taking away his powers for a time, became the savior of their entire species. I was so proud of the whole crew here.
My personal belief was that the events of Broken Link were never meant to be an eternal punishment. My feeling is that once enough time had past, the Founders let loose the baby changeling that came into Quark's possession in The Begotten as a form of test to see how he would treat it. And we know what happened after. The Begotten is actually one of my favorite episodes.
The link works both ways and Odo needed her to see what he believed, how he believed it, and most importantly why this all work out for his people, for her to change his mind where words alone wouldn't work.
I believe the moment odo linked with the female changeling, Odo let her know he was ready to return home to his people, in the great link. And in exchange she agreed to end the war. Also I believe Odo has a way to help the changelings in the great link understand solids better. So they no longer fear solids.
Odo is a drop in a giant bucket. There's billions of years of lived experience among the Great Link. Other Changelings have loved, feared, and hated Solids for longer than Odo has existed. He's going to make a small difference at best.
@@DisFantasy Yeah, that's what annoyed me, she'd linked with him several times before and it hadn't changed her opinion of solids, just seemed like a really quick and cheap way to end the war, probably because they had no budget left...
@@ValiantWrestling why is it so out of line that it was as simple as "i'll return to the link and cure the others but in exchange, you must surrender and stand trial for your war crimes." and she simply agreed because she clearly has a lot of respect for odo
1:02... I kinda like the desaturation of the greens on the Klingon and Romulan warships... having them bright green like in TNG would've felt wrong for the grittiness of DS9...
There were a lot of style choices made because of the limits of televisions at the time. Everyone stands way to close together, ships are brightly colored. And more.
Trek has a lot of villains, and a surprisingly large amount of them are understandable to some degree, in a universe that is usually black and white. Weyoun was the epitome of loyalty. Yes, that led him to do horrendous, unforgivable things. But look at it from his perspective. The Vorta started as timid animals living in trees, and after helping a founder they were promised an important place in a great empire. The founders seem to have fulfilled that promise. The Vorta are serving their gods, their saviors, their only friends. There's a respectable destiny in there somewhere.
We've established from the beginning that rebelling or at least independent thinking Jem Hadar are not unheard of. It's dangerous to say they would commit seppuku instead of Kamikaze or forming another government.
The whole production crew did incredible with DS9, The Next Generation, Voyager back then. Everything from scene setups to the ship battles. Especially considering the computers then were still slow compared todays.
Would’ve been in line with the mystery of Garak’s character and an amazing deep cut if he had produced a Varon-T disruptor to personally dispatch Weyoun.
@@saiga5476 But it seems that their trust with him was always tumultuous, piecemeal, and coming from a position from some prior consequential thing,, in my opinion
@AM-dc7pv I'm not saying you're wrong, but my point is that this probably would have destroyed it utterly and finally. Remember that weapon is literally supposed to be the worst way to die. There's no way to justify having that weapon. Even torture might be justified if you're trying to get information that will save innocent lives, but a Varon-T is literally torturing a person to death before they could possibly give you answers. There's literally no justification for having one, IMO.
Which is just stupid, the writers seemed to forget that the Dominion had cloning facilities in the Gamma Quadrant too, as well as Jem'Hadar Birthing chambers. Since you know, the Gamma Quadrant was their home territory.
What left of it. "O..Oh... Ohhhh you are dead you little weasel" Weyoun is shot. Before he dies weyoun hears Damars ghost say "Overconfidence. Hallmark of the Weyouns".
Kira should have told, "In that case we will hunt your kind, we will find the great link, and exterminate you", or "be my guest, your kind is already dead without our help"
My thoughts exactly, infected by an incurable disease, with at least one quarter of the entire galaxy's population out to finish you off for good. I think they got lucky that no-one thought to themself:" If I snuff that ship she and Odo is on I probably will die too, but it will wipe these monsters out for good."
@@rangaweerakkody165 ridiculous and silly. First the Federation wouldn’t hunt down a species for extermination - the founders know that, just as we the real fans know that, rendering the line laughable . Second, HER ENTIRE POINT was that the forces of the Alpha quadrant would be nearly wiped out themselves. How are they going to invade the Gamma quadrant? 😂😂😂. Sometimes thinking before writing is a good thing.
@@datacipherwhy would the founders know that? The federation were the same faction that infected them with a first capable of causing their extinction. You can't even just blame it on section 31 when they clearly establish how many people at the highest levels of starfleet command were needed to execute the plan and cover it up.
@@datacipher They don’t need to fight them or attack the Dominion home in the Gamma Quadrant. They could just wait until the Founder and the rest of the Great Link dies. Or they could agree to unconditional surrender and receive Odo’s cure. If they fight, they get nothing. Surrender is their best chance.
The Breen were shown to wear refrigeration suits, a metaphor of their cold, ruthless nature. They had a mutual understanding with the Dominion. They were all in -- cold and rigid like an ice cube... or a Borg Cube, undeviating. So the Breen embody the Founder's statement, "You may win this war... but when it is over you will have lost so many ships, so many lives, that your victory will taste as bitter as defeat." In contrast, the shape shifting process is symbolic of melting. So by offering the Female Founder forgiveness Odo symbolically melted away her coldness and opened her heart, which is why she chose to end the war. This is also why Odo returned to the Great Link, to heal his people from long standing wounds they'd internalized. Again symbolic of Star Trek favoring individualism and free choice over collectivism, that one man can make a difference (I'm admittedly channeling Knight Rider with that last statement).
No one does, it was never explained in the show. We just know they hate earth, no reason given. Nor do we know why they waited so long to join the war efforts.
The Jem He'dar would fight on forever and the Breen seem like opportunists that would take advantage of that situation but I don't think they'd actual fight on indefinitely. She was bluffing with what she had I suppose.
The problem with the " victory is bitter as defeat is , who become subservient to the other who will write the history of the war after it is over that is the difference
Garrick and Kira break into their command center…. It seems like it takes five people to fight their way all the way to the founder…… but one would think that her room would have some shields or some better weaponry or there’d be seven or eight Jem Hadar in there cloaked prepared to shoot them in the back when they came through the door
I find this work from the actors the best star trek has to offer so far they faces just always seam tru to character i think it had to do with all the long make up hours the tress made for great facial projecting in their roles deep space nine being a semi hostile environment 75% off the time ...
I mean at least the great link only had a disease which could be cured on surrender, The Federation could have dusted off Genesis. Though maybe that would have been too far even for Section 31.
Would have been better if if she said, "The Jem Hadar and the Breen will fight to the last." and then someone said, "Uh, actually the Breen are retreating." They didn't sign up to lose!
@@Gothic7876 the books aren't canon and we see Breen ships in the Dominion's defence perimeter and a couple of breen are present at the signing of the treaty of bajor
Nonsense, there are Breen ships in the fdleet at Cardassia when the alliance fleet arrives and there were Bren present during the signing of the treaty of bajor. Guess you must be blind.
I mean, I think the subtext is there a bit for that. The Breen commander, and their high command staff, return to their ships to 'prepare to fight', and their ships take position that is ready to meet the Federation head on (As they claim to the Dominion)or maybe just to jump to warp first sign of trouble. The Breen are raiders and opportunists, I doubt they would die for a war that is not their own
@@itsOasus Absolutely. The female Founder said as much to Weyoun on the DS9 Promenade. Was a really superb show. Sadly we will not see the calibre of writing, story arc and character development again imo.
DS9 was my favorite iteration of Trek. But perhaps I missed something. I wondered how Odo knew he'd cure the head changeling by linking with her and that linking with her wouldn't re-infect him? Also, why do changelings have sexes anyway? They reproduce asexually, right?
One thing that never made sense to me. The Dominion proper, is in the Gamma Quadrant. It would have been untouched by the war. Their industrial base, shipyards, weapon plants, and cloning plants..... All of it, still in working order, all of it presumably operating at peak efficiency for the whole war. So technically, The Dominion wasnt defeated Yet, that's never addressed ?
The Dominion was structured like a a bee hive, the Founders/changelings were infected with a deadly virus and without a cure for the leadership it would have been doomed right after the last Founder died. Maybe they would have given a final order to continue the war for all eternity untill the Federation is destroyed, similiar to the order the female changeling gave to destroy Cardassia. The moral question is: Was it right to sell the other races under Dominion rule for the well-being of the cardassian homeworld? They also did not mention any consequences for the Breen.
The Prophets are refusing Dominion ships passage through the Celestial Temple. The Gamma Quadrant reinforcements will take 80 years to get to the Alpha Quadrant!
It always seems so odd to me that she surrendered so easily however after years of thinking about it I realized that it simply because he showed her that he doesn't need have the Cure and all she ever cared about is her people and as long as he convinced her that he wouldn't be delivered a cure to them then she's like yeah. Sure. Whatever. That's what's the most important because otherwise they're dead. Kind of admirable in that Twisted way she really did care about her people more than anything else. However that blinded her to anything else.
True, but he got to live. Now he can endlessly grumble about how many more Dominion ships he could have destroyed if they hadn't given up, which is almost as good!
I wonder. We learn on Picard that not all the changelings were found in the Alpha Quadrant after the Dominion War. Section 31's ideals as to protecting the Federation was valid, and this was evident when it comes to the Borg as well as the Dominion. The Federation's own short - sightedness delayed another tragedy in the making here.
Garak's killed before on the show and has initiated violence a number of times against Jem'Hadar. He also has killed off-screen as a saboteur and assassin, like most tailors do. However, trying to remember if he's ever openly attacked an unarmed person. A first "this was personal" kill?
garak is a psychopath, a very high functioning one, in case it is not clear he would absolutely kill an unarmed person, even an innocent person, if it furthered his personal goals and ambitions…he would have killed ziyal without thinking twice if it was necessary to further his plans…
It's kind of messed up they had the Romulans, who just lost their flagship, and the Cardassians who took the worst brunt of casualties of anyone in the war, to deal with the Jem'hadar who are the most numerous of the defenses.
Those battleships, like the one that tore the Valiant a new one as well as the Regent's Negh'Var, were hugely over-scaled to make them look extremely threatening. Even so, they're going to munch through Alliance ships whatever size they are rendered. Also, the weapon platforms are interesting - do they have their own internal power source this time? I imagine the Federation already has any remote power source targeted which would make for a rather swift win, but internal power might be a different challenge. I sure as hell wouldn't like being given the job of attacking something that can fling 1,000 torpedoes and some rather deadly disruptors back at me.
I thought their power source would've been located somewhere on Cardassia. Sure they wouldn't make the same mistake of having it on another asteroid...
The one nameless Cardassian redshirt guy left with Kira and Garak at the end. "Holy crap, I can't believe I survived."
Later dies from a falling wrecked loose overhead beam as he was trying to get back to his neighborhood.
@@TheMrPeteChannel Ah yes, Enterprise storytelling at its finest.
Garak: Okay, you go off and storm the Jem'Hadar barracks alone while Commander Kira and I remain here where we can use the Founder as hostage.
That founder warning the others about their victory tasting as bitter as defeat - that was rather intense if you ask me.
Nah. She just didn't care about the loss of life that's been happening around her probably because the Link itself was infected and dying.
So, she was willing to take everything down with her.
But that's where she got it wrong.
The Link would die, the Jem'Hadaar with no new masters would go into proverbial melt-down (or something to that effect), the Dominion as such would end up collapsing completely.
Ships can easily be replaced with replicators, transporters and automation. That's the LEAST of their problem.
And while yes, lives would have been lost, every person on those ships knew what they were getting themselves into and knew of the risks.
So, while the wounds of the war would linger for a time, eventually, people would recover - and its mostly people on ships would would be in danger of losing their lives - a tiny fraction of the UFP population.
Given UFP's overall principles and ideals, there would be plenty of people who would want to join Starfleet. Same applies for the KDF, and other species organisations.
Point is, the Dominion ends up crumbling into dust and the Founders cease to exist as we know them.... Dominion crumbles, and then the 'solids' end up winning anyway.
She may have thought that she was trying to inflict as much damage as possible, but honestly, its a tiny price to pay, and we know the aliies were willing to go through it if necessary.
I'm all for diplomacy, but a bit more interesting comeback would have been even more poignant... and then offering her the cure and a way to save the Link.
Pyrrhic Victories are by their very nature a catastrophe for all sides.
And relevant. War is literally hell.
@@ChrundleTGreat Watch the scene from M*A*S*H where Hawkeye tells everyone in the OR the difference between war and Hell. He says that war is a lot worse than Hell, because people who are innocent don't go to Hell, but plenty of innocents find themselves in warzones. And if you ask me, he's right. War is war, and Hell is Hell, and of the two, war is a lot worse.
@@deksroning125
I would expect the Jem Hadar going in to berserk mode
DS9 taught me about politics and alliances in the most entertaining way possible.
Jeffery Combs going "ooOO" almost everytime Weyoun dies is black comedy gold.
huh? didnt hear that at all, wasnt really an amusing scene either
He is a god of Sci fi.
Except when Worf kills him lol. All he says is "SNAP"
'What's left of it..' This Weyoun had it coming.
Yeah, he kinda asked for that one.
"Overconfidence, the hallmark of the Weyouns." - Damar
"Maybe you should talk to Worf again"
Weyoun never did learn his lesson about mouthing off to the wrong people.
"I wish you hadn't done that, I'm fresh out of Weyouns."
Good, I wasn't looking forward to unaliving more of them.
Maybe they should talk to Worf again.
"My Weyoun copier is fresh out of toner."
Don't worry, he'll be on Enterprise as an Andorian.
@@Lightning546 fascinating cloning technology ;)
Sisko-let’s see what kind of CGI budget that we have waiting for us
I wish they had chosen to not recycle the occasional space-battle clip in these final battles, I think it would have been better to show less scenes (all new) than have more scenes because of recycled shots mixed in... it kind of cheapened it. The recycled clips were too recognizable.
If they ever remaster DS9 I hope they insist on producing new VFX in place of the recycled footage. I believe the intent was a much larger space battle and to have the beginning of the final battle over Cardassia but the network photon torpedoed their budget for the finale. Still impressive what they were able to do.
@@superzentredi a complete reboot to modern standards would be better cause this kind of story telling doesn't work nowadays you can't throw in a big plot with side missions on the series as they did back in the days, the industry completely changed
@@AgentK-im8ke There are millions of people who CRAVE this kind of story telling to return; it's not for the better that the "industry" has abandoned it.
@@bellissimo4520 thing people would not watch it maybe the old guards but not the young people thing is series nowadays are much better in my opinion
Dominion Ships were genuinely beautiful, menancing, consistent and fresh looking for the franchise.
Not bad for a short foray but I don't think they have much, or rather, are lacking in terms of high volume restrooms like what's needed for extended...treks. 🤪
The Dominion war was peak Star Trek. IMO, nothing else in any of the series comes close to it.
It only came into being, though, to counter Babylon 5. Had it not been for B5 and the Shadow War, we wouldn't have gotten the Dominion War.
I really liked the idea of a bigger, badder federation made up of lots of difference alien races. I just wish they showed more of them.
@@cennon Or at least brought back a few of the other client races of the Dominion.
Agreed
@Alamandorious babylon 5 had some very interesting concepts, but the execution was clunky. The acting was mostly bad, with the exception of a handful of core actors. It did have some fairly good ship battles but the cgi was very late 80s dated and basic. And the set design was distractingly low quality. The stories had some dramatic moments but the pacing was often slowed down to pad out the time. Some characters were good, mostly the alien characters. I never found any of the humans to be anything more than annoying daytime tv drama level characters. In short, babylon 5 was terrible compared to DS9... and I don't agree that the babylon 5 in any way influenced DS9 or its story. BUT if it did then DS9 did it far better.
The line The founder gave about "victory tasting as bitter as defeat"... Cold AF
Aka Pyrrhic victory
Empty...pretty sure the Breen were close to bail out, leaving only the weapon platforms and the Jems vs massive odds, including suicidal Cardassians out for blood and Klingons being Klingons...Feds and Roms would have been mighty fine...
@@davidkay7389 I don't think this counts as a Pyrrhic victory. It's important to the concept that the instigator is the one who wins the Pyrrhic victory. The Federation didn't start the war with the Dominion so the Federation victory isn't Pyrrhic.
and showed that, for all their research, the Dominion knew nothing of Humanity. We'll mourn the dead, we'll build monuments to them. But humanity has never been too hesitant to throw lives at a problem. If anything, the more lives lost, the stronger we rebound as a people
Put simply THE best ever Star Trek series, stellar characters, just too many to mention, written to perfection, wow
About 35% of the episodes were cringey filler but from the remaining 65% I agree
DS9 never got the respect it deserved. Just weird enough to make it stand out
I still prefer TNG. But, I'll freely admit it is far more up and down in terms of quality than DS9. And DS9 does have two of my favorite episodes of any Trek: Duet and By the Pale Moonlight
TNG was still better
@@bilbo1778 More like 90% of it are boring fillers.
DS9 NEVER ENDS!.
I was hoping you would say that, priceless delivery from Andrew Robinson 😅
That look before she solidified... Odo showed her the reality of her situation and she knew the species would be extinct if she continued.
At the same token, I think she was at the point where she would have done ANYTHING to get Odo to agree to go back and rejoin the Great Link. Even if it meant ending the war against the Alpha Quadrant powers.
That above all else has been the Great Link's desire ever since the series began.
That’s not why she surrendered. She surrendered because Odo was ready to return to his people if she ended the war. She always said nothing mattered more than Odo coming home. Not even the entire alpha quadrant.
@@gotham23us why did she want odo so bad, what did he have?
@@mooncake387 He had nothing at all but the life of a Founder to the Founder is priceless and to be protected at all costs and so why he had nothing his life was worth the whole alpha quadrant to her and the other Founders.
@@davidlister7590 but odo was happy in the alpha quadrant, he was protected too, the founders literally had no reason to fear for him.
Weyun died as he lived, mouthing off to people he shouldnt have
Hallmark of the vorta
Maybe he should try talking to Worf again!
Well sadly they can bring him back again and again. They have more than enough Vorta clones
@@vadersfist1775 not after this
That actor sure knows how to play despicable!
Together with Babylon 5 my most beloved scifi show...they don't make them like this anymore.
They can't - and won't...
But Star Gate...
Babylon 5 is still fantastic :)
Definitely my two favorite sci fi shows!
@@seregrian5675 Not aloud to make like they used to
The Last two seasons of Deep Space 9 were Outstanding
Last 5 seasons. I fixed it for you.
DS9 is the definitive Trek. The storytelling is superb! Acting script sets and costumes aces!! They managed to tell two incredible story arcs while weaving in many standalone episodes. The Sisco arc to demigod status and Odos journey of self discovery and eventual dominion plot were immaculate! Kudos to all involved!
Only if you vote blue.
ST:TNG is the 🐐
DS9 is peak Star Trek. It's the perfect blend of Star Trek stories and drama without going over-the-top and losing that quintessential Star Trek vibe. Good stuff.
They had a bunch of theater actors, amazing how much skill that gave them to perform so well and immersed themselves. Have you seen the sets with the crew and all?? It's crazy that with like a dozen people watching in front of them their acting doesn't miss a beat when they're just talking to individual characters.
Since the female changeling (Salome Jens) surrendered and agreed to face trial, they should have brought her back as the tortured villain in Season 3 of Picard.
Star Trek will never be this good again
That line " your victory will be as bitter as defeat ..." Was to me the defining moment of that war !!!!
back when trek was at its peek
peak
facts
@@Cha0sCloud piek
Which is funny - because DS9 was almost cancelled twice xD
It sure was!
I loved this show.
Pissed me off they didn't get more seasons.
It getting better and better each season.
We haven't had anything this good since.
It's a shame, yes, but better that it ended at it's peak, rather than get dragged out for too long and end up as trash.
I know the saga of DS9 continued in books like other Trek shows. There was a 2-part book story called ST: Avatar in which the saga took place after the war featuring Captain Picard and crew plus new DS9 characters including Ro Laren as new security chief. Never read the books, but it would've been nice if a live-action movie or miniseries could've been made.
Every Star Trek series gets seven seasons, unless an atrocity befalls it, or it proves too abysmal to continue.
Enterprise Season 3 & 4 were good, too bad it was cancelled when things really started getting going, but because Berman and Braga kept that temporal cold war storyline going for 3 years with it going nowhere and many other terrible season 1 and 2 episodes, people tuned out and never came back, despite it getting better after they were gone.
@@ValiantWrestlingtrue. SNW and LD are best trek now.
God why can't we get Star Trek LIKE THIS!?
A Star Trek without constant explosions, fist fights and lots of crying?? In 2024, almost unbelievable. I am happy to be a child of the 80s so I could watch Star Trek in its old, full glory.
This show was that to a lot of older fans. Not me, but a lot.
@@toddjones1480
DS9 was definitely the most violent and dramatic of all Star Trek for its time.
It's tame compared to Star Trek content today.
@@mariolawrence897 Agreed.
Excuse me, this was a war. There was a lot of peace and no war in Star Trek. Please do not live on Violence. Never ends well. And this was not in the 1980's, this was in 1990's.
pretty sure it's still on paramount plus, you can watch it anytime
2:31 THE BEST line in Star Trek ever.
Not the greatest but it’s up there. IMHO
Imagine next Star Trek show about postDominion world...Alpha quadrant forces is still recovering...new alliance forming...Dominion in a state of chaos since their reputation as invincible force is shattered...Cardassia under Federation protection...Voyager is back home....Federation inspite heavy losses is expanding rapidly since it proove it can emerge victorious in hard conditions...Klingon empire still not stabile..Romulans too but glimpses of brighter future can be seen...Alpha quadrant is exhausted but Alliance between Federation-Klingon-Romulans in war prooved that peace and prosperity in our part of galaxy could be achieved.
Its called "Lower Decks"
Not really, aside from the fact it's gone in a completely different direction, it's set in the wrong time period@@scottv5162
@@scottv5162 Too bad they just axed that show, the best new ST since DS9.
If only there were still legendary writers from this era.
That's where and 9th and 9th season of DS9 would've come in handy, instead of continuing on with that garbage Voyager...
The expression on Kira's face when confronting the changeling with defeat is priceless!
DS9 hit different 🔥
I wish there was a 4 screen shot including Romulan & Cardassian reps
Agreed.
They were already straining their budgets at this point, but yes, it would have added so much, especially since the Cardassians would have been champing at the bit to stop the slaughter, and the Romulans would have needed to re-shuffle command due to their flagship being destroyed just in the battle prior.
Zoom doesn't work over subspace . . .
I wish Sela would have been the Romulan commander when the Romulans joined the federation and the Klingons in the war
@@triptrip8353 That would have been a massive win.
startrek has yet to return to the heights of DS9 epicness.
This was peak Star Trek!
FULL respect to all the other OG Treks, but for me, DS9 Dominion war was PEAK Star Trek.
A war in star Trek is your peak trek? 😢
Sad. Gene would never like DS9
I always thought it'd be more impactful (no pun intended) if they actually showed some of the Dominion fleet firing on Cardassia Prime.
Probably but they just didn't have that kind of budget. Special FX, space battles and the like were much more time consuming and expensive in the 90s.
I was expecting to see some fires on the planet from cities being nuked, the ships don't need to be firing there is plenty of munitions planet side... but at least the casaulties sound correct, the big issue I had with babylon 5 was the humans where basically being slaughtered for 2 years and only suffered 250,000 casaulties, here in a day the Cardassians suffered 800 Million.
It was a prime time TV show, so they couldn't show too much. I'm just glad Ira Steven Behr was able to write the show he wanted to and it was allowed to be as dark as it was. Best Trek show in my opinion.
@davesmith5482 Look at the cost for one season of The Acolyte and it was only 8 episodes. How many episodes was Picard? They can't do even a full season anymore like they did of DS9
@@brianc1812 They don't have the ability anymore particularly in the writers rooms.
1:37 i love this col.kira's cold eyes.
Garak isn't scary when he's mad, Garak is scary when his smile fails to reach his eyes.
It would have been great if in the final stages of the war, when the Dominion and Cardassians were being encircled, smaller Alpha and Beta quadrant powers joined the Federation alliance against the Gamma quadrant invaders. This happened in the later stages of World War 2 when several formerly neutral countries, like those in South America declared war on Germany and Japan (when it seemed certain they were going to lose). It would have been interesting to see some of the many aliens we saw throughout TNG again - some had very formidable ships.
It's always highly insulting to have nations attempt to join you after the dying has already concluded and victory has been all but secured.
@@recon1055 Not if they actually do something. If some Ferengis and their surprisingly powerful ships managed to destroy some Dominion vessels or those "Darmok" aliens fight some Breen, they should at least receive an invitation to the victory party.
"I was hoping you would say that..."
Garak is the best.
Luckily the federation had a ferengi who thought about mines. genius.
And closet space.
Odo dominated that link with her. Throughout all of DS9, the Female Changeling seemed to be the strongest.
I can imagine the conversation between these two during the link.
He agreed to cure their people, but she's totally submissive when Odo was finished.
I love how the Changeling they cast aside, even taking away his powers for a time, became the savior of their entire species.
I was so proud of the whole crew here.
My personal belief was that the events of Broken Link were never meant to be an eternal punishment.
My feeling is that once enough time had past, the Founders let loose the baby changeling that came into Quark's possession in The Begotten as a form of test to see how he would treat it. And we know what happened after.
The Begotten is actually one of my favorite episodes.
They shouldve let the Changelings succumb to the disease
DS9 was so cool!
The link works both ways and Odo needed her to see what he believed, how he believed it, and most importantly why this all work out for his people, for her to change his mind where words alone wouldn't work.
I love how without reading the description and only seeing the opening CG quality/style I was able to guess it was DS9
I believe the moment odo linked with the female changeling, Odo let her know he was ready to return home to his people, in the great link. And in exchange she agreed to end the war. Also I believe Odo has a way to help the changelings in the great link understand solids better. So they no longer fear solids.
He had spent some time as a "solid", so brought to them that understanding...
Odo is a drop in a giant bucket. There's billions of years of lived experience among the Great Link. Other Changelings have loved, feared, and hated Solids for longer than Odo has existed. He's going to make a small difference at best.
@@DisFantasy Yeah, that's what annoyed me, she'd linked with him several times before and it hadn't changed her opinion of solids, just seemed like a really quick and cheap way to end the war, probably because they had no budget left...
@@ValiantWrestling why is it so out of line that it was as simple as "i'll return to the link and cure the others but in exchange, you must surrender and stand trial for your war crimes."
and she simply agreed because she clearly has a lot of respect for odo
"Victory will taste as bitter as defeat." As opposed to losing and living under the thumb of the Dominion and the Jem'Hadar? I think not.
1:02... I kinda like the desaturation of the greens on the Klingon and Romulan warships... having them bright green like in TNG would've felt wrong for the grittiness of DS9...
There were a lot of style choices made because of the limits of televisions at the time. Everyone stands way to close together, ships are brightly colored. And more.
Trek has a lot of villains, and a surprisingly large amount of them are understandable to some degree, in a universe that is usually black and white. Weyoun was the epitome of loyalty. Yes, that led him to do horrendous, unforgivable things. But look at it from his perspective. The Vorta started as timid animals living in trees, and after helping a founder they were promised an important place in a great empire. The founders seem to have fulfilled that promise. The Vorta are serving their gods, their saviors, their only friends. There's a respectable destiny in there somewhere.
When Garak and Kira agree on something....
That time Kira and Damar were on the same side.
"We have known the bitterness of defeat and the exultation of triumph, and from both we have learned there can be no turning back."
I always felt that had they broadcast the founder’s demise, the Jem H”Adar would’ve self deleted.
by ramming into Federation fleet of ships.
They would have thought it a trick.
We've established from the beginning that rebelling or at least independent thinking Jem Hadar are not unheard of. It's dangerous to say they would commit seppuku instead of Kamikaze or forming another government.
If the Jem’Hadar were given a standing order then would still follow it through.
Great writing, Bravo!
Holy fuck DS9 was epic. Gunna re watch it..maybe the 12th time
The whole production crew did incredible with DS9, The Next Generation, Voyager back then. Everything from scene setups to the ship battles. Especially considering the computers then were still slow compared todays.
Great writers/directors make for great shows.
Voyager? lmao nice joke.
infact that entire series was one big joke, a waste of 7 seasons of money that could've been put into DS8's budget.
The general public just don't know how great this battle is
Just remember that all this and going back to DS9 to sign the surrender took as long as Dukat and Wyn's hike to the fire caves.
Quite a long hike to be fair.
3:10, the words you're looking for are Pyrrhic victory
Something the Russians are likely to get
When we destroy ourselves, there is no victor. Only death.
The audience would miss it
@@surfdocer103 Who’s the Audience?
@@alexshank1414 You, me, anyone who can understand English? Pyrrhic is definitely a 10 dollar word lol, gonna fly over a lot of heads.
To all who did not watch the show: After 7 seasons this scenes are over epic culmination of storylines.
We had great shows back then,good clean fun fantastic fantasy TV,
Unlike the trash today,
Would’ve been in line with the mystery of Garak’s character and an amazing deep cut if he had produced a Varon-T disruptor to personally dispatch Weyoun.
But they probably would never have trusted him again.
@@saiga5476 But it seems that their trust with him was always tumultuous, piecemeal, and coming from a position from some prior consequential thing,, in my opinion
@AM-dc7pv I'm not saying you're wrong, but my point is that this probably would have destroyed it utterly and finally. Remember that weapon is literally supposed to be the worst way to die. There's no way to justify having that weapon. Even torture might be justified if you're trying to get information that will save innocent lives, but a Varon-T is literally torturing a person to death before they could possibly give you answers. There's literally no justification for having one, IMO.
I LOVE BIG SPACE WARS❤❤❤
2:15 overconfidence, the end of the weyouns.
Which is just stupid, the writers seemed to forget that the Dominion had cloning facilities in the Gamma Quadrant too, as well as Jem'Hadar Birthing chambers.
Since you know, the Gamma Quadrant was their home territory.
Garak was always my fave. Never sure, unless he was backing Bashir.
Through Odos' experience, the Founder learned that, yes, humanity created an extinction level virus, but, there were also 'Good Solids' out there.
What left of it.
"O..Oh... Ohhhh you are dead you little weasel"
Weyoun is shot.
Before he dies weyoun hears Damars ghost say "Overconfidence. Hallmark of the Weyouns".
lmao
Weyoun had a BIG mouth lol😂😂😂😂🖖🏾
Kira should have told, "In that case we will hunt your kind, we will find the great link, and exterminate you", or "be my guest, your kind is already dead without our help"
My thoughts exactly, infected by an incurable disease, with at least one quarter of the entire galaxy's population out to finish you off for good.
I think they got lucky that no-one thought to themself:" If I snuff that ship she and Odo is on I probably will die too, but it will wipe these monsters out for good."
@@rangaweerakkody165 ridiculous and silly. First the Federation wouldn’t hunt down a species for extermination - the founders know that, just as we the real fans know that, rendering the line laughable . Second, HER ENTIRE POINT was that the forces of the Alpha quadrant would be nearly wiped out themselves. How are they going to invade the Gamma quadrant? 😂😂😂. Sometimes thinking before writing is a good thing.
@@datacipherwhy would the founders know that? The federation were the same faction that infected them with a first capable of causing their extinction. You can't even just blame it on section 31 when they clearly establish how many people at the highest levels of starfleet command were needed to execute the plan and cover it up.
@@datacipher
They don’t need to fight them or attack the Dominion home in the Gamma Quadrant. They could just wait until the Founder and the rest of the Great Link dies. Or they could agree to unconditional surrender and receive Odo’s cure. If they fight, they get nothing. Surrender is their best chance.
Barrels and barrels of 2309. Klingons must of brewed an entire planet that year cause they mention it all the time.
It was a good time to be a Klingon Blood Wine manufacturer.
That's the main reason to expand the Empire, more bloodwine planets.
'Must of'? What do you believe that means?
@markfox1545 means I'm drunk on 2309 THERE IS NO FINER VINTAGE
2309, wa' HovwI'vetlh
I don't understand why the Breen would be so committed to fighting to the last man.
they got a look at some old earth game called "warhammer 40k" and thought it was news reports about the Federation.
Do you know what the joke is they never got a chance to become a box of his motion picture
The Breen were shown to wear refrigeration suits, a metaphor of their cold, ruthless nature. They had a mutual understanding with the Dominion. They were all in -- cold and rigid like an ice cube... or a Borg Cube, undeviating. So the Breen embody the Founder's statement, "You may win this war... but when it is over you will have lost so many ships, so many lives, that your victory will taste as bitter as defeat."
In contrast, the shape shifting process is symbolic of melting. So by offering the Female Founder forgiveness Odo symbolically melted away her coldness and opened her heart, which is why she chose to end the war. This is also why Odo returned to the Great Link, to heal his people from long standing wounds they'd internalized. Again symbolic of Star Trek favoring individualism and free choice over collectivism, that one man can make a difference (I'm admittedly channeling Knight Rider with that last statement).
No one does, it was never explained in the show. We just know they hate earth, no reason given.
Nor do we know why they waited so long to join the war efforts.
The Jem He'dar would fight on forever and the Breen seem like opportunists that would take advantage of that situation but I don't think they'd actual fight on indefinitely. She was bluffing with what she had I suppose.
I’d like that Star Trek space battles are more like Ender’s Game ones.
If sisko sang the thong song there wouldn't be an intergalactic war
The problem with the " victory is bitter as defeat is , who become subservient to the other who will write the history of the war after it is over that is the difference
Garrick and Kira break into their command center…. It seems like it takes five people to fight their way all the way to the founder…… but one would think that her room would have some shields or some better weaponry or there’d be seven or eight Jem Hadar in there cloaked prepared to shoot them in the back when they came through the door
Weyoun sent most of the Hq garrison to assist with the whole slaughtering the Cardassians thing (he says so in an earlier scene)
Or maybe like, a bolt lock. So the door doesn't just slide open.
I find this work from the actors the best star trek has to offer so far they faces just always seam tru to character i think it had to do with all the long make up hours the tress made for great facial projecting in their roles deep space nine being a semi hostile environment 75% off the time ...
And just like that, He Who Washes with Sandpaper, ends the war.
I mean at least the great link only had a disease which could be cured on surrender, The Federation could have dusted off Genesis. Though maybe that would have been too far even for Section 31.
Would have been better if if she said, "The Jem Hadar and the Breen will fight to the last." and then someone said, "Uh, actually the Breen are retreating." They didn't sign up to lose!
In the books, the Breen fuck off just as the Allied Forces arrive.
@@Gothic7876 the shows and movies are the primary canon.
@@Gothic7876 the books aren't canon and we see Breen ships in the Dominion's defence perimeter and a couple of breen are present at the signing of the treaty of bajor
Nonsense, there are Breen ships in the fdleet at Cardassia when the alliance fleet arrives and there were Bren present during the signing of the treaty of bajor.
Guess you must be blind.
I mean, I think the subtext is there a bit for that. The Breen commander, and their high command staff, return to their ships to 'prepare to fight', and their ships take position that is ready to meet the Federation head on (As they claim to the Dominion)or maybe just to jump to warp first sign of trouble.
The Breen are raiders and opportunists, I doubt they would die for a war that is not their own
Returning Odo to the Great Link was worth more than the entire Alpha Quadrant
Its what the Link wanted ever since the series began
@@itsOasus Absolutely. The female Founder said as much to Weyoun on the DS9 Promenade.
Was a really superb show. Sadly we will not see the calibre of writing, story arc and character development again imo.
thats the only cause he had the cure.
I really wish I could have gotten into DS9.
They left all the clues you needed.
Salome Jens does an amazing job as the female changling.
The faction with the coolest looking ships in the show just had to be the obligatory bad guys, didn't they?
DS9 was my favorite iteration of Trek. But perhaps I missed something. I wondered how Odo knew he'd cure the head changeling by linking with her and that linking with her wouldn't re-infect him? Also, why do changelings have sexes anyway? They reproduce asexually, right?
Great show...until season 7.
One thing that never made sense to me.
The Dominion proper, is in the Gamma Quadrant.
It would have been untouched by the war.
Their industrial base, shipyards, weapon plants, and cloning plants.....
All of it, still in working order, all of it presumably operating at peak efficiency for the whole war.
So technically, The Dominion wasnt defeated
Yet, that's never addressed ?
The Dominion was structured like a a bee hive, the Founders/changelings were infected with a deadly virus and without a cure for the leadership it would have been doomed right after the last Founder died. Maybe they would have given a final order to continue the war for all eternity untill the Federation is destroyed, similiar to the order the female changeling gave to destroy Cardassia. The moral question is: Was it right to sell the other races under Dominion rule for the well-being of the cardassian homeworld? They also did not mention any consequences for the Breen.
The Prophets are refusing Dominion ships passage through the Celestial Temple. The Gamma Quadrant reinforcements will take 80 years to get to the Alpha Quadrant!
It always seems so odd to me that she surrendered so easily however after years of thinking about it I realized that it simply because he showed her that he doesn't need have the Cure and all she ever cared about is her people and as long as he convinced her that he wouldn't be delivered a cure to them then she's like yeah. Sure. Whatever. That's what's the most important because otherwise they're dead. Kind of admirable in that Twisted way she really did care about her people more than anything else. However that blinded her to anything else.
when they linked he shared what is probably an entire season's worth of explanation and convincing in one psychic link.
Don't assume it was easy. You don't know how long and involved that conversation was in the link.
Poor Martok didn't get his battle
True, but he got to live. Now he can endlessly grumble about how many more Dominion ships he could have destroyed if they hadn't given up, which is almost as good!
Never underestimate the Federation.
I wonder. We learn on Picard that not all the changelings were found in the Alpha Quadrant after the Dominion War. Section 31's ideals as to protecting the Federation was valid, and this was evident when it comes to the Borg as well as the Dominion. The Federation's own short - sightedness delayed another tragedy in the making here.
Garak's killed before on the show and has initiated violence a number of times against Jem'Hadar. He also has killed off-screen as a saboteur and assassin, like most tailors do. However, trying to remember if he's ever openly attacked an unarmed person. A first "this was personal" kill?
I would argue that him killing Entek in Second Skin was his first "this was personal" kill.
garak is a psychopath, a very high functioning one, in case it is not clear
he would absolutely kill an unarmed person, even an innocent person, if it furthered his personal goals and ambitions…he would have killed ziyal without thinking twice if it was necessary to further his plans…
I would love a full 4K remaster
There’s only so much that can be done to resolution. It was shot on 90s video unlike TNG that was shot on 35mm film.
@ I thought that was only the case with Enterprise? The remasters they did with DS9 film for ‘What We Left Behind’ looked stunning.
“It will be a glorious battle”
"Today is a good day to die"
It's kind of messed up they had the Romulans, who just lost their flagship, and the Cardassians who took the worst brunt of casualties of anyone in the war, to deal with the Jem'hadar who are the most numerous of the defenses.
When someone tells you "I know what I'm doing", they don't know what they're doing.
Because of ODO Picard had to come out of retirement to defeat the changelings again.
And thus Odo made his biggest mistake as we later see....
Heavy Losses even more heavy Losses against the Dominion I think.
Weyoun never knew when to keep his big mouth shut.
Now, that big mouth is open wide permanently. ☠️
we will never surrender...ok we will surrend 🤷
what did he do, physically change her mind?
@@bloodred255 ah that? no he agreed to return to his people and heal them.
"I will do no such thing"..."OK, then after we're done here we will wipe out the Breen, the Jen Hadar and you".
Those battleships, like the one that tore the Valiant a new one as well as the Regent's Negh'Var, were hugely over-scaled to make them look extremely threatening. Even so, they're going to munch through Alliance ships whatever size they are rendered.
Also, the weapon platforms are interesting - do they have their own internal power source this time? I imagine the Federation already has any remote power source targeted which would make for a rather swift win, but internal power might be a different challenge. I sure as hell wouldn't like being given the job of attacking something that can fling 1,000 torpedoes and some rather deadly disruptors back at me.
I thought their power source would've been located somewhere on Cardassia.
Sure they wouldn't make the same mistake of having it on another asteroid...