"I want to see every human being achieve their unique potential...what are the conditions that need to be met in order for everybody to achieve their unique potential." - that's another good quote from here.
This was an incredible podcast. Amy is so well spoken and educated, and she speaks of women issues so logically - that I can't see how anyone could listen to her and not be empathetic to the plight that patriarchy has caused for centuries.
You could tell them to read and watch Gloria Steinem. I love the way Gloria is able to convey with such clarity and in a nonjudgemental way why it is so difficult for women to shed their internalized sexism. The revolution within: a book about self-esteem by Steinem is one to recommend. Thanks for the tip about the Breaking down patriarchy podcast.
Thank you, Amy, for being brave enough to speak out after being bullied by the brethren. Positive change is only possible if we are not afraid to speak up!!
So powerful and thought provoking. Thrilled to listen to and fully embrace this discussion with my wife this morning. 🙏 We will definitely be following Amy moving forward.
Thank you so much making this video. I have so much to say! First of all Amy was such a delight to listen to. She was informative, respectful and clear. Secondly, Breaking down patriarchy is exactly the thing I've desperately been looking for! I have been trying to find the information about patriarchy and women's history that combines the historical and scientific facts and theories, the emotional reality and the feminist "what can we do about it" side. I'm so exited to listen to the podcast! I might have never found it if it weren't for Mormon stories (which covers my post-mormon podcast needs, haha) so thank you :)
Same! I tried to make my own feminism history booklist recently and failed because I just couldn't find the resources and didn't know where to start. I'm very excited!
Wow, Amy is so articulate and so well read. I am so glad to learn about her podcast and look forward to deprograming the years of "benevolent patriarchy"!
Thank you Amy, love listening to you. I got my 14 year old granddaughter an encyclopedia of goddesses to remind her of the power she has. You are so inspiring. 🙏🏾💜🇿🇦 Love from South African granny
Growing up as a Hispanic I always wondered why there were only white men in high positions in the church. I would always ask my mom why after so many years this church that’s suppose to be the the church of the world lacked diversity in the prophets, apostles, 70’s, etc. After hearing this podcast it made me realize that my view was narrow and didn’t realize that as a women there was lack of diversity for us as well. There are so many changes that need to be done not only in the church but in our society. And if we all love on another and work together we can make positive change happen. We need to not only speak up but stand with those that want their voices heard!! Solidarity!!!!
I can’t even express how much I love Amy and how her podcast has changed my life, my perspective of our world and my place in it. Thank you, thank you Amy! You are a light in so many lives!!
24:00 As an example of the widespread reach of benevolent patriarchy: I was going to BYU when our ward volunteered at a church welfare garden, moving crates of veggies, cleaning, etc. There was an elderly guy there who didn't want me to pick up crates, I guess because they were heavy, and he told me to let my male friend do it. I was grumbling inside, but I didn't feel like I could say anything to either him or my male friend, because the old guy had said it with a smile instead of in a mean way, and thus it would seem like I was being "offended" and angry about something small. Benevolent intentions doesn't mean that the actions or ideas aren't sexist.
I think that we need to choose our battles.. When it comes to physical strength it is clear that men normally have that advantage and that really isn’t the issue with patriarchy.. It’s the idea that as women we Have the right to be equally yoked together in this church.. that needs to change
Amy, you are a beautiful soul. Thanks for the work you are doing and for shining a light on patriarchy, equality, and human dignity. This was a beautiful interview and you really touched my heart. #superfan
I used to be an electrician which I absolutely loved. Something about active labor felt better than sitting at a desk. I was told to go to college and be an electrical engineer so I could make more to support an entire family. I did and I'm miserable now. This system does not work for men. There are plenty of women that could do my job better and enjoy it more than me. I trained two female interns this past summer that had so much more enthusiasm and natural intellect in this field than I ever had. I think the future can be better.
@Katherine H Hi Katherine! I don't think it's a bad idea to capitalize on something you already know a lot about. Getting a formal license or degree would certainly be a better resume booster. Navy experience can open a few doors but not all (commercial power generation plants would be more open to it). I actually haven't stopped. My wife and I recently transitioned away from the church and unfortunately that path we set 6 years ago is keeping me at my job while she figures out what will fulfill her in life. It's the price we're paying for letting the church make so many decisions for us. I think this career works for both men and women. I just don't think it suits me well. Traditionally engineering has been a male dominated industry like many other industries but I was just trying to convey how much the industry would be boosted by anybody that has passion for it (especially women since their perspective is one that I currently don't see highly represented). If you think a career in the electrical field will be both rewarding and financially advantageous then I say go for it! If you think it's uninteresting or just don't get excited with the troubleshooting/experience you had in the navy then maybe consider alternatives. You and society would both benefit from you landing in a career that brings you excitement.
Amy is the kind of woman I’m always on the lookout for to befriend. I really appreciate her lending a growing voice to so many of us who are trying to also make our voices heard.
I have been gravitating towards a very strong need to help dismantle and heal this inequality (and it sounds like a call to me also). There must be a balance, and now is the time to find it! Thank you Amy! Coincidently, this past Christmas I bought myself 5 books on Patriarchy-3 by Gerda Lerner and I am deep into one of them at this very moment! (I’ve also investigated enrolling in the Women’s Studies program at the university in my city. I’m consumed). And ...I just subscribed to Amy’s podcast! ❤️😃
This is so inspiring, informative, and insightful! Thank you! I love when John sings the primary songs. :) I was either the primary chorister or primary pianist for most of my twenty adult years in the church, so I know these songs intimately. I have bittersweet memories of them. I had to teach that song "The Family is of God" during the early stages of my faith transition and would go home and just sob because I knew I was contributing to the problem by teaching these harmful gender roles to these sweet, innocent children. So hard. Thank you for shining a light on what can be a more hopeful, honest, and realistic way of building a family life. Amy, you are an inspiration!!
So grateful for Amy and her dedication to helping everyone increase awareness of patriarchy and its origins, and what we can do to help improve equality. I would like to see Amy take some of John's suggestions to go deeper into some of the topics she is tackling in her podcast. We all need to be more informed in our analysis on these important topics, and be thoughtful in how discuss certain ideas, groups and traditions. If a group is causing harm to anyone, regardless of gender, I find it difficult to process/label it objectively as "better." Harmful ideas/behaviors/traditions, regardless if surrounded by "good" is still harmful.
This episode was food for my brain. John’s observation about Mormon Feminism dying down after Ordain Women is so true but so sad. I think many feminists like myself felt helpless. I hate to admit it, but I do think that the excommunication of Kate Kelly allowed the patriarchy to exert control over more women than just Kate Kelly
This was such a good interview! I will have to check out her podcast. I have always had gender inequality issues with the church and the temple ceremony. This was validating and enlightening.
Activism by walking away is the most powerful kind when facing entrenched power heads. If that option is available, take it. Leaders only have power over people when those people are captive. Walking away demonstrates freedom. THE worst fear of an abusive spouse is that the abused will walk away. They are left with no narcissistic supply. Fighting to take a more powerful position is a second best option, because history has shown that the abused can become abusers when they win superior positions. It's still the same game. The game of dominance and submission.
@@epicderp6167 Neither are ok. The problem is tyranny. Having tyrannical power split 50/50 male/female would be a step up from all male - but walking away from the game is best, if possible. Maybe if all powerful positions were female it would be better than all male, I don't know. Might be worth a try.
Refusing to comply is often the beginning. Finding space to be free and live according to your own mind and heart is the hoped for outcome- In this context leaving the controlling environment is such a key to being able to heal and grow.
@@epicderp6167 Just one more comment. Originally I was coming from a perspective of wanting less authoritarian leaders. To that end, I don't know that female leadership would be less authoritarian. Authoritarian females exist for sure, and they would be the ones to rise up the ranks. But I absolutely do think authoritarian females should have just as much access to leadership as authoritarian males. I'm totally on board with that. But what I want overall is less authoritarian. There are currently less authoritarian males out there. Why aren't they currently more prominent in leadership roles? It's because high power roles were made by and for narcissists.
This history is disturbing to say the least... Makes me feel like I've always have, not included. I've worked on myself over the years and it's discouraging, yet I still sense this going on in society.
They really are bullies Amy. I know that feeling of power being sucked out of relief society lessons when the priesthood walk in and take up their places at the back of the room. Chloe was right - you and Rosa are brave. How dare they come up to you after your talk? I lost my voice eventually while in the LDS church. Nobody was interested in literature or anything that didn’t have Deseret Books on the fly leaf. I am so glad to be out. Thank you Amy, now I can calm down and listen to your interview. 🙏🏻☮️🇿🇦
3 года назад+2
17:04 I am listening to this while putting my makeup on and now I’m crying ❤️❤️❤️
Only to the part about feminism getting set back 20 years and already I have to stop and make a comment. Lol. About women and the priesthood... let me first say that I’m not a woman who wants the priesthood only because that’s just more things for women to take on to add to their plate of responsibilities, of should, and that’s just not for me, but I support women who do want the priesthood. That’s great. Ok... what bothered me so much was when women were given a little bit of priesthood responsibility bu being allowed to be a witness at a baptism, the church also allowed children down to 8 years old to be able to do the same. So they were putting women on the level of children. To me is seems like the leaders said, “if we’re going to let the women be an official baptismal witness then I guess we may as well let the kids do it too! What age do you think can handle that? Eight? Great! Women and children 8yrs and up are now deems capable of handling this responsibility.” To me it was an aha moment again of just how women are truly regarded in the church hierarchy, and it has stuck with me. I’m not “offended” I just feel like my eyes are continually being opened. I still go to church. My community is there but I feel differently about a lot of things. The process of awakening has been going on a long time but here are some real standout moments where I made big leaps into unbelief and understand of my status, and that was one of them.
I agree, but I believe that women have moved on from wanting to be a part of the dominion of others, through the "Priesthood Power." The LDS church is seeing a great exodus of competent, successful people. Women should not pay tithing or contribute. Don't run the Primary, or the Relief Society or participate in the temples. Boycott all of it.
This church is there own worst enemy, all that came to my area were sister missionaries, and converted me and since im a recovery drug addict they have helped me even after baptism Now when I started repenting and hearing from the holy ghost, the men leaders want to steal these young ladies thunder, this is pure 100 percent bullshit
Great episode! Yes, I made it all the way through (cannot wait for a prize (maybe she'll do more episodes - or she did a good job on the recent Women's equality panel the other day). This episode was perfectly timed for me too. My wife and I were talking about Patriarchy (Google must have been spying). The next day my wife asked me what books and other sources I had looked into since leaving the church and I had listened to 75% of the episode that day!
I read the Dear Mormon Man post just the other day and it made me sick to think about. If it were me facing that environment for the first time, there's no way I'd put up with it at all. Being raised in the church from little children and taught by mothers and women around you that this is "the way" is the only way I can imagine it successfully taking root each rising generation. You can fight all you want within the church to change things, but that will either never work or it will take generations. If you want something to change quickly, leave en masse, taking children with you, and be sure to let your bishop/stake president know why you're leaving. I look at Sam Young and the Ordain Women group, trying to change things from within. They just get excommunicated and silenced, and nothing happens. But if the church were to start losing thousands of mothers along with the rising generation, that will get their attention very quickly, and they'll start to change.
Agree. I’ve just now found out the fraudulent truths of church and I immediately told my children (19-28 yrs old) so that hopefully now it is not perpetuated. Now I’m trying to figure out how I want to actually leave. If I want to just become inactive or resign & tell the bishop why. If I want to be outspoken to my friends & family. I keep going back & forth how I want to handle it. Ironically I’m waiting on my husband to come around before I make a move.
Almost all women are attracted to and gravitate to strong and assertive men. The patriarchy is inevitable. If a vacuum is created it will soon be filled.Nature abhors a vacuum
Brilliant! Favorite part was talking about how finding out God isn't really the dominator described in the Bible, sets you free to know a merciful God (like Jesus illustrated in the Gospels). So helpful! And the thing that bugged me throughout is lumping men on one side and women on the other. Some men are more sensitive and egalitarian and compassionate than some women. The sterieotypes do make sense overall, but growing up as a sensitive boy, things were so confusing hearing so much of stereotypes. I know I'm in the minority of men, but I'm definitely not the only one. To me the difference makes more sense as sensitive/insensitive, instead of male/female. But the world likely won't change terminology to accommodate the minority I'm a part of. Thank you for having this conversation!
After your speaking, leaders of the church were afraid that you made women think that also have the right to speak up, and for sure that was a thread to them, big hug from Norway🇧🇻
Amy thank you for highlighting the devastating reality that black women are completely left out of the conversation. Frederick Douglass is my hero since childhood. I love that you bring him into this conversation.
I am so happy that Amy has recognized the patriarchy issue in Mormonism. She has started her journey! Being a scholar, her next move is to really read church history. Then she can reveal all the lies in the LDS church! Peace on your journey, Amy!
The Sumerians were the most innovative and creative of all. Check out all their inventions which we still use today. And Ianna was their goddess. The rotten Babylonians conquered them. This is fascinating, thank you Amy and John.
During the suffrage movement some of the strongest opponents were women of privilege. The same happened during the fight for ERA in the 70's. These women are often afraid to lose the economic privilege of staying home, so they vote against the interests of women who need the protection of the law, not their husbands income. The intersectionality you were talking about earlier comes into play as the struggle continues.
There are many people, men included, who love older women! I have been pursued by younger men for many years. The younger men who I have dated have all expressed their admiration for women who have grey hair and have crows feet. What I hear from them time and again is that what they love to see is women who are confident and proud. That is what is attractive to them. This has been my experience since my divorce 26 years ago. It's only my current boyfriend that I have dated a man older than me. Let's give these men who love women some props! Some of them even cook and clean
A few random observations: 1. It seems that in those cultures where male circumcision is practiced, the female hymen becomes terribly important. It may be that women are viewed to participate in the covenant with God via their relationship with their husbands. 2. I have to wonder what would have happened if a woman faced with that kind of "wall" of priesthood members had used forceful physical presence or even actual physical force to assert and enforce her right to talk to the participants directly? 3. John mentions Queen Elizabeth. The thing about Elizabeth is that she did indeed promise to obey and serve her husband in her wedding vows, and she did in fact do that in their private family life.
She's right on. I only encountered one jacka** of a bishop during my time as a TBM; however, I encountered a lot of priesthood holders who meant well but certainly had their ideas of who I should be as a single woman and then a single mom. Just wasn't for me anymore once I had my son and I didn't want him coming up with the "privilege" of priesthood either and learning to sit in judgment of people. She's 100% right about the future needing to be inclusive of everyone, including those with "privilege." As a single mom raising a strong boy, the future needs to include both of us.
Speaking of the temple, I've been out for a while but a couple of years before I started transitioning out of the church, I was called as a temple worker for a year and, quite honestly, it was one of the most fun callings I ever did as a TBM. Yes, I'm glad it's changed as described here, but it was the only place I consistently felt the most power as a woman. Women exercise at least borrowed priesthood in the temple. No, I never wanted the priesthood but if I had known then what I know now, then I would have lobbied to get the priesthood if that is what it takes to be truly on equal ground with men in the church.
There are lots of good men out there. Because of society and training, they may be unaware of their privelege and patrimony. That is why I'll stand up for myself, but I'll never be "angry" with men, or partcipate in women-only groups. We need all of us to get along.
I’m reading The Firsts a book on new generation of woman in the US Congress. The rules on how to dress on the Capitol floor or the separate work out rooms or the pool only being available during certain times because two male Senators liked to swim naked. It is amazing what still hangs on.
03:01:30 …. I'm a straight white male. Am I now being blamed for slavery? What kind of point is this? "My people".... They aren't "my people"... I didn't do that... See this is what I don't get about some people that are angry about the past. Why are they getting angry at people like me? What did I do?
Very much appreciate the many great insights on offer here. I have learned a lot, as is often the case watching Mormon Stories as a Never Mormon. Just raisiing a question over the characterisation of Judaic ritual purity, laws, to which your guest seems to ascribe the sense of 'purity' as we understand it in contemporary English. I understand from various talks by Yale's Joel Baden and other scholars of the Hebrew Bible that ritual purity as desribed in the Totah does not carry any moral weight and therefore a state of ritual impurity does not connote being or feeling dirty in any such sense. Yes, menstruation and 'nocturnal emissions' cause ritual impurity under Mosaic law, but my understanding it that is very much later Christian morality that causes us to see either as brimming with sin and shame. That aside, please keep up the great content.
I think this is the first podcast that I didn't like what John had to say... "That's my vision for your movement." She has her own vision for her movement. She doesn't need yours. Your comments didn't sit with me today. Too much you in there. Loved Amy tho!
Things tend to reflect the culture that spawned them. This podcast seemed to me to inspire us to rethink our judgements and labels and see what’s possible.
Want to achieve respect and equality, invent something, build something, go into your garage and design and create the first personal computer. Nothing is holding you back unless you decide your time is better spent cheerleading than learning STEM, and spending a time complaining about men holding you back from entering the garage and grabbing a tool. Men are tired of building 99.9% of the things that make the world work-planes, trains, automobiles, communication systems... everything. We would love for women to take the burden from us. Climb a tower, dig a ditch, do the difficult and dangerous jobs. Stop complaining. DO SOMETHING! We all all have to EARN respect. It will never be handed to you unless you live in a fairy tale world of the woke and ignorant. Maybe then, men can live longer, without 99% of the burden on our shoulders. It's up to you whether you have the guts and willingness. If not, get out of the way. That goes for weak men as well. Jeff Bezos isn't evil, he's just smarter and more resourceful that we are.
I guess i just dont even understand this kind of thinking my mother and grandmothers grew up in a time when men very much controlled most things, but they still had their own minds my grandmother was in the military was a photographer and a writer, it didnt occur to her to sit around and wait until a man gave her permission to do something she just did it,my other grand mother worked outside the home when it was more acceptable to be at home these women did whatever it took to lead in her own way its called being a grown ass woman
Men and women’s spheres - how has the industrial revolution affected the view of these roles, quite separately from religion? At the time Deuteronomy 6 was written, both parents would have been working on the farm, right, according to physical strength and interest and need. Both parents were to teach the children - both were expected to be with the kids from rising up to lying down, sitting at table and walking along the way. All day. Is that maintaining human life only? Genesis 1, both male and female were given to rule over the earth and its creatures. Adam’s first assignment in this mission was to observe the difference between animals and name them: mastery in the sense of science. Both were given to rule the earth together - make progress in this beautiful earth together. It’s not stasis.
I enjoyed this podcast, but was a little put off by the circumcision comment. The "painful realization" is that women can't participate? While I can see that it is exclusionary, it's also a terrible practice. Ritualistic genital cutting of unconsenting minors is wrong.
I particularly like the part, early on, where she talks about the deeper history of patriarchy. I appreciate how much I learned from that. But I get the impression she hasn't dug back deep enough with questions of "Why". Why did those dominator cultures implement patriarchy into their system to begin with? Why has patriarchy lasted so long and prospered so much? I get an impression that she's absorbing all this info about what the history is and how to interpret it (kudos to her for that), but not as good of a job thinking critically about it. And based on her mentioning the high prevalence throughout world history of a dominator society conquering an egalitarian/matri-focal society, one reason I come up with would be that they understood the benefit of patriarchy toward protecting/preserving their society from being destroyed by an outside force. Which begs the question, which is worse, the oppression/suffering that seems inherent of a patriarchal system, or the vulnerability to an outside force that seems inherent of a matriarchal system? Anyway, my personal opinion so far is that we will never be able to fully get rid of patriarchy, and I don't think we need to or should, since her citation has shown us how much worse the alternative is. At least some suffering will be inevitable, no matter what kind of system we have. The best we can do is regulate/modify it to reduce the damage (which is what America and Western Civilization have already been doing for a while now), and continually clean up the mess it leaves in its wake, making those regulation/modification/clean-up efforts a regular part of our economy/culture. I also find it a bit unfortunate that she said so much about ways in which patriarchy has hurt people, but no mention of how it has helped people (of which I'm sure much could also be said). That seemed a bit one-sided of a perspective.
As a follow up, I've now listened to the 1st episode of the podcast, about the book "The Chalice And The Blade". Good work. (Pleasantly surprised to hear a reference to Jordan Peterson. I happen to be a fan of him.) I may reach some different conclusions than she does (so far), but I think it's good work she's doing, so I encourage her to keep it up. It's beneficial to get another side of the story.
I suppose her point is that ultimately whether patriarchy is beneficial or not, we should be striving for egalitarianism. Patriarchy by its structure has a blind spot for half the population. We can’t know the full harms of patriarchy tot how it compares with the benefits since much of the harms are not documented or acknowledged. The book Invisible Women does a great job of detailing the many failings of our patriarchal society regarding women in the most basic of plans or systems.
@@mills3026 You're right, Patriarchy does tend to bring a bunch of harm along with its benefits. But its benefits are far too great for us to simply dismantle it entirely (plus it has proven to be such a cost-effective ethos that we probably couldn't if we wanted to). I'm a fan of egalitarianism, but I think we should elaborate on what we mean by it, and what it should look like. I don't think the Matrifocal approach she talks about is ideal on its own, partly b/c it has not stood the test of time. I think we're better off having a . . . I'll use the word collaboration . . . between Patriarchy and Matriarchy, maintaining a certain sense of balance and homeostasis, like the yin and yang of Taoism. I'll call it Matriarchy (unlike her) b/c I think it's supposed to operate differently from the hierarchical approach of Patriarchy. It operates the way society needs it to operate, just like Patriarchy does. We have Patriarchy to help us make progress toward a higher quality of existence, and we have Matriarchy to help us clean up any collateral damage left in the oppressive wake of that progress. And I think our Western civilization is lately doing a decent job overall, operating in that way, maintaining that balance. Another thing I might say, which might ruffle a few feathers, is that part of the reason Patriarchy has been our structure of choice over Matriarchy has been b/c of human sexuality. And female sexuality has dominated that selection/determination process just as much as male sexuality has, perhaps even more so. (Although I would argue that's one of the benefits of the Matriarchal approach, that it provides greater understanding of female sexuality. Perhaps even of sexuality overall.)
When Eave in the garden sinned to become like God, also wanting children, the right of priesthood was removed from her and given to Adam. That for the higher calling of marriage and bringing the hole family to heaven with us is not something a women can do. So when the opinions of being unfair come into play, that when things become corrupt, and the original gospel becomes changed again and made null and void. Kind of like King Solomon wanting to be wise, then God ruled his kingdom, and is a equal trade. That doesn't mean they are totally left out, they get it through their husband that hold the key, by filling in a function, not that they get it.
Neither the man without the women nor the women without the man Both are a part of society and both have agency both have voices both have compassion and both are leaders and teachers, we miss out on important voices that make society better when we exclude groups of people with valuable insight. A governing party that is only governed by once side of its membership, neglects the rights and needs of its members. All men are created equal male , female, black , white, bond and free this is taught in the Book of Mormon, Unfortunately this teaching hasn’t been historically abided by.
Priesthood power isn’t men’s, it is God’s. The priesthood power is the power of God( Heavenly Mother and Father are both Gods and their purpose is to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man)(ie going back home to live with him and to become like him), Priesthood power and authority are available to individuals who need his help, yes men are ordained to hold priesthood keys and are supposed to use it to serve not rule over, But women have access to priesthood power too. God is with Adam but he is also with Eve
If a doctrine teaches one that they are broken automatically by sin when entering the world and that a blood sacrifice is needed to save them and then they have to eat the sacrificial victim every sunday in remembrance how can that doctrine be helpful in bettering mental health? This is Chrisitanity's most disgusting and harmful teaching that blood atonement can forgive anyone for anything and that Mercy is accept Jesus or not and therby accept damnation and Hell. That's not mercy and blood sacrifice for forgivness can only lead to thinking violence and suffering is key to changing ones life for the better and accepting forgivness. It's derivative of ancient human sacrofcial cult offerings.
Baal means lord, and moloch means king. The gods of the peoples around the Israelites were power based. The law of the God of the Israelites, though, said you don’t even have a human king unless you envy the nations around you. If you get a king, that king is not permitted to amass money or military or women. Jesus is the only king in history to obey these laws concerning kings. And he said he was among us as a servant. Re: circumcision: would you consider thinking about this as a bit and bridle for men, that the sexuality of the physically stronger sex had to be placed second to God, who requires loving neighbor as self?
The brethren will always know what is best for the members. Believing blacks were disobedient in the pre-existence and could not hold the priesthood was in our best interest. Women's place in the home and motherhood is in their best interest. Not teaching the truth about the origins of the church and it's history was in members best interest. Your a complete idiot if you don't believe that! You see, it's not up to us to think for ourselves. By doing so we might be led astray. By only believing and obeying in the prophets voices will happiness be found. They know what's best for each of us and we should never question anything that doesn't feel right. By doing so you are being influenced by Satan. Just obey and pretend to be happy. What is so difficulty about that? Just don't worry about it, the brethren will never lead anyone astray!
Every building was built by a majority of men, but every person was born of woman. And indeed, the vast majority were raised by women. Society itself was built by men who were raised by women. A patriarchy raised and influenced by the matriarchy, male centric because it was first female centric. So in a way, women create far more than men.
@@stevenpictures1 You sound like a little boy bringing the teacher an apple. Did you get your approval and pat on the head ? lol There is no point in a debate; you can''t decompile a thought process until it suffers the residuals. I'm just simply amused as an outsider, how deep the denial of 350 million years of the hierarchy of nature has become. The Universe will demand payment. It cares not how you feel, for your virtue, and is not based in egalitarianism.
@@jprkzoo3463 I feel like you're just insulting me without putting forth a proper counter argument. I'm not denying any hierarchy of nature, if anything I am saying that the patriarchy is inherent in human society which is perpetuated by the women who live in it. Women are inherently more connected to children than men by virtue of the price they have to pay to reproduce children. Man cannot suffer what woman suffers. So while the woman is connected to the children, the man needs to do what makes him a man to support the woman and her children. Now whatever payment I must pay to the universe, I will gladly pay it.
Get back up on that horse and RIDE!!! You ROCK. Have you not heard the voice of He who is mighty and strong!? If you have, His power only is omnipotent because of our Heavenly Mother. You are a royal Woman of God and Goddess! Ordained already by another woman in the temple! Claim your place. Laugh and enjoy the little men in suits’ efforts and challenge and stink! They can’t help it. This is why you are here. Ride on, girlfriend!!
All the complaints women make about mormonism ignores the fact that active women far outnumber active men in the church. Don't blame men when it's women who are adults making their own personal decisions to be active.
I think most women stay active because they are trying to raise their children in righteousness. It’s the nurturing spirit. And just like the abused they have been trained to see themselves as the church wants them to be. Keep her in her place. If she is home busy raising her children, she is left feeling very dependent on men & the church without even realizing it.
We're taught in utero that this is the only truth. I don't know if you've ever experienced a moment when you realize there's truth outside of what you've learned. It's scary. Sometimes it's easier to pretend you don't know and keep the status quo. I'm not saying all women are trapped. There are incredible women in the church who know and who choose to stay. I'm just saying it's more complicated than simply stating adult women choose to stay and use that as evidence there's nothing odd going on. It's much more nuanced than that.
“If you are used to, or accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.” Great quote.
"I want to see every human being achieve their unique potential...what are the conditions that need to be met in order for everybody to achieve their unique potential." - that's another good quote from here.
Look at the people who are weeping most about oppression.
Amy, others in the universe do see you as both a leader and a woman of strength and truth. You are a Harbinger of what is to come in the near future!
I love listening to Amy. She’s a phenomenal example of a human in process, embracing her heart and moving ahead.
This was an incredible podcast. Amy is so well spoken and educated, and she speaks of women issues so logically - that I can't see how anyone could listen to her and not be empathetic to the plight that patriarchy has caused for centuries.
You could tell them to read and watch Gloria Steinem. I love the way Gloria is able to convey with such clarity and in a nonjudgemental way why it is so difficult for women to shed their internalized sexism. The revolution within: a book about self-esteem by Steinem is one to recommend. Thanks for the tip about the Breaking down patriarchy podcast.
Thank you, Amy, for being brave enough to speak out after being bullied by the brethren. Positive change is only possible if we are not afraid to speak up!!
Or if we feel the fear and do it anyway!
So powerful and thought provoking. Thrilled to listen to and fully embrace this discussion with my wife this morning. 🙏 We will definitely be following Amy moving forward.
Thank you so much making this video. I have so much to say! First of all Amy was such a delight to listen to. She was informative, respectful and clear.
Secondly, Breaking down patriarchy is exactly the thing I've desperately been looking for! I have been trying to find the information about patriarchy and women's history that combines the historical and scientific facts and theories, the emotional reality and the feminist "what can we do about it" side. I'm so exited to listen to the podcast! I might have never found it if it weren't for Mormon stories (which covers my post-mormon podcast needs, haha) so thank you :)
Same! I tried to make my own feminism history booklist recently and failed because I just couldn't find the resources and didn't know where to start. I'm very excited!
Wow, Amy is so articulate and so well read. I am so glad to learn about her podcast and look forward to deprograming the years of "benevolent patriarchy"!
I just love that, Women to have a seat at the Table. It has been overdue from the beginning. Congratulations Amy.
Thank you Amy, love listening to you. I got my 14 year old granddaughter an encyclopedia of goddesses to remind her of the power she has. You are so inspiring. 🙏🏾💜🇿🇦 Love from South African granny
Could I have the name and author of the book?
Growing up as a Hispanic I always wondered why there were only white men in high positions in the church. I would always ask my mom why after so many years this church that’s suppose to be the the church of the world lacked diversity in the prophets, apostles, 70’s, etc. After hearing this podcast it made me realize that my view was narrow and didn’t realize that as a women there was lack of diversity for us as well. There are so many changes that need to be done not only in the church but in our society. And if we all love on another and work together we can make positive change happen. We need to not only speak up but stand with those that want their voices heard!! Solidarity!!!!
I can’t even express how much I love Amy and how her podcast has changed my life, my perspective of our world and my place in it. Thank you, thank you Amy! You are a light in so many lives!!
24:00 As an example of the widespread reach of benevolent patriarchy: I was going to BYU when our ward volunteered at a church welfare garden, moving crates of veggies, cleaning, etc. There was an elderly guy there who didn't want me to pick up crates, I guess because they were heavy, and he told me to let my male friend do it. I was grumbling inside, but I didn't feel like I could say anything to either him or my male friend, because the old guy had said it with a smile instead of in a mean way, and thus it would seem like I was being "offended" and angry about something small. Benevolent intentions doesn't mean that the actions or ideas aren't sexist.
I think that we need to choose our battles.. When it comes to physical strength it is clear that men normally have that advantage and that really isn’t the issue with patriarchy.. It’s the idea that as women we Have the right to be equally yoked together in this church.. that needs to change
Amy is so damn reasonable. #1 Humanist. Have loved listening to her!
This is one of the most inspiring interview I’ve heard in a while, wow!!
Yes love wicked!!
Oh y’all have me in tears. I’m so grateful for y’all’s work.
Iron jawed angels!
She needs to have a podcast on RUclips !!! Fascinating podcast, John.
You have been so helpful to many including myself with your message Amy, thank you!
Incredible stuff here! Thank you, John and Amy, for bringing it to us!
Amy, you are a beautiful soul. Thanks for the work you are doing and for shining a light on patriarchy, equality, and human dignity. This was a beautiful interview and you really touched my heart. #superfan
This one, the most educational, instructive yet!
I've had that 'presided over' feeling too, just like she was describing. I know exactly how that feels. It's 'pure' thought control at it's extreme.
I used to be an electrician which I absolutely loved. Something about active labor felt better than sitting at a desk. I was told to go to college and be an electrical engineer so I could make more to support an entire family. I did and I'm miserable now. This system does not work for men. There are plenty of women that could do my job better and enjoy it more than me. I trained two female interns this past summer that had so much more enthusiasm and natural intellect in this field than I ever had. I think the future can be better.
@Katherine H Hi Katherine! I don't think it's a bad idea to capitalize on something you already know a lot about. Getting a formal license or degree would certainly be a better resume booster. Navy experience can open a few doors but not all (commercial power generation plants would be more open to it). I actually haven't stopped. My wife and I recently transitioned away from the church and unfortunately that path we set 6 years ago is keeping me at my job while she figures out what will fulfill her in life. It's the price we're paying for letting the church make so many decisions for us. I think this career works for both men and women. I just don't think it suits me well. Traditionally engineering has been a male dominated industry like many other industries but I was just trying to convey how much the industry would be boosted by anybody that has passion for it (especially women since their perspective is one that I currently don't see highly represented). If you think a career in the electrical field will be both rewarding and financially advantageous then I say go for it! If you think it's uninteresting or just don't get excited with the troubleshooting/experience you had in the navy then maybe consider alternatives. You and society would both benefit from you landing in a career that brings you excitement.
Amy is the kind of woman I’m always on the lookout for to befriend. I really appreciate her lending a growing voice to so many of us who are trying to also make our voices heard.
We all need to build bridges and friendships, women and men of good will together will move the nation.
I would love Amy's updated reading list! Loved this podcast.
I have been gravitating towards a very strong need to help dismantle and heal this inequality (and it sounds like a call to me also). There must be a balance, and now is the time to find it! Thank you Amy!
Coincidently, this past Christmas I bought myself 5 books on Patriarchy-3 by Gerda Lerner and I am deep into one of them at this very moment! (I’ve also investigated enrolling in the Women’s Studies program at the university in my city.
I’m consumed).
And ...I just subscribed to Amy’s podcast! ❤️😃
I can't wait to listen to the podcast! Thanks for all you both do!
I'm ready for the load. I'd rather feel discomfort processing and unpacking than continue sweeping things under the rug.
WOW! What amazing insight. Thanks to Chloe, for nudging you to share your message. Can’t wait to catch the podcast.
This is so inspiring, informative, and insightful! Thank you! I love when John sings the primary songs. :) I was either the primary chorister or primary pianist for most of my twenty adult years in the church, so I know these songs intimately. I have bittersweet memories of them. I had to teach that song "The Family is of God" during the early stages of my faith transition and would go home and just sob because I knew I was contributing to the problem by teaching these harmful gender roles to these sweet, innocent children. So hard. Thank you for shining a light on what can be a more hopeful, honest, and realistic way of building a family life. Amy, you are an inspiration!!
Omg! This is so exciting know there was a history where women were more valued. I live hearing this.
So grateful for Amy and her dedication to helping everyone increase awareness of patriarchy and its origins, and what we can do to help improve equality. I would like to see Amy take some of John's suggestions to go deeper into some of the topics she is tackling in her podcast.
We all need to be more informed in our analysis on these important topics, and be thoughtful in how discuss certain ideas, groups and traditions. If a group is causing harm to anyone, regardless of gender, I find it difficult to process/label it objectively as "better." Harmful ideas/behaviors/traditions, regardless if surrounded by "good" is still harmful.
What were you teaching…
This episode was food for my brain. John’s observation about Mormon Feminism dying down after Ordain Women is so true but so sad. I think many feminists like myself felt helpless. I hate to admit it, but I do think that the excommunication of Kate Kelly allowed the patriarchy to exert control over more women than just Kate Kelly
Loved it. Loved Amy's heroine call and her niece's part in encouraging her along.
I watched the entire podcast and excited to listen Amy’s podcast. Can’t wait for the post COVID party!
This was such a good interview! I will have to check out her podcast. I have always had gender inequality issues with the church and the temple ceremony. This was validating and enlightening.
"When you are accustom to privilege, equality feels like oppression." 40:40
Activism by walking away is the most powerful kind when facing entrenched power heads. If that option is available, take it. Leaders only have power over people when those people are captive. Walking away demonstrates freedom. THE worst fear of an abusive spouse is that the abused will walk away. They are left with no narcissistic supply.
Fighting to take a more powerful position is a second best option, because history has shown that the abused can become abusers when they win superior positions. It's still the same game. The game of dominance and submission.
I see what your saying, but I am also hearing "patriarchal systems are okay because at least its not a matriarchal system taking over." :/
@@epicderp6167 Neither are ok. The problem is tyranny. Having tyrannical power split 50/50 male/female would be a step up from all male - but walking away from the game is best, if possible. Maybe if all powerful positions were female it would be better than all male, I don't know. Might be worth a try.
@@epicderp6167 Maybe tyranny wasnt the best word choice. Maybe "authoritarian" works better.
Refusing to comply is often the beginning. Finding space to be free and live according to your own mind and heart is the hoped for outcome-
In this context leaving the controlling environment is such a key to being able to heal and grow.
@@epicderp6167 Just one more comment. Originally I was coming from a perspective of wanting less authoritarian leaders. To that end, I don't know that female leadership would be less authoritarian. Authoritarian females exist for sure, and they would be the ones to rise up the ranks. But I absolutely do think authoritarian females should have just as much access to leadership as authoritarian males. I'm totally on board with that.
But what I want overall is less authoritarian. There are currently less authoritarian males out there. Why aren't they currently more prominent in leadership roles? It's because high power roles were made by and for narcissists.
This episode was amazing. So many aha moments for me. Thank you for making such great content!
This history is disturbing to say the least... Makes me feel like I've always have, not included. I've worked on myself over the years and it's discouraging, yet I still sense this going on in society.
They really are bullies Amy. I know that feeling of power being sucked out of relief society lessons when the priesthood walk in and take up their places at the back of the room. Chloe was right - you and Rosa are brave. How dare they come up to you after your talk? I lost my voice eventually while in the LDS church. Nobody was interested in literature or anything that didn’t have Deseret Books on the fly leaf. I am so glad to be out. Thank you Amy, now I can calm down and listen to your interview. 🙏🏻☮️🇿🇦
17:04 I am listening to this while putting my makeup on and now I’m crying ❤️❤️❤️
Only to the part about feminism getting set back 20 years and already I have to stop and make a comment. Lol. About women and the priesthood... let me first say that I’m not a woman who wants the priesthood only because that’s just more things for women to take on to add to their plate of responsibilities, of should, and that’s just not for me, but I support women who do want the priesthood. That’s great. Ok... what bothered me so much was when women were given a little bit of priesthood responsibility bu being allowed to be a witness at a baptism, the church also allowed children down to 8 years old to be able to do the same. So they were putting women on the level of children. To me is seems like the leaders said, “if we’re going to let the women be an official baptismal witness then I guess we may as well let the kids do it too! What age do you think can handle that? Eight? Great! Women and children 8yrs and up are now deems capable of handling this responsibility.”
To me it was an aha moment again of just how women are truly regarded in the church hierarchy, and it has stuck with me. I’m not “offended” I just feel like my eyes are continually being opened. I still go to church. My community is there but I feel differently about a lot of things.
The process of awakening has been going on a long time but here are some real standout moments where I made big leaps into unbelief and understand of my status, and that was one of them.
I agree, but I believe that women have moved on from wanting to be a part of the dominion of others, through the "Priesthood Power." The LDS church is seeing a great exodus of competent, successful people. Women should not pay tithing or contribute. Don't run the Primary, or the Relief Society or participate in the temples. Boycott all of it.
This church is there own worst enemy, all that came to my area were sister missionaries, and converted me and since im a recovery drug addict they have helped me even after baptism
Now when I started repenting and hearing from the holy ghost, the men leaders want to steal these young ladies thunder, this is pure 100 percent bullshit
I'm not Mormon, but am so glad the RUclips algorithms sent this my way.
Great episode! Yes, I made it all the way through (cannot wait for a prize (maybe she'll do more episodes - or she did a good job on the recent Women's equality panel the other day).
This episode was perfectly timed for me too. My wife and I were talking about Patriarchy (Google must have been spying). The next day my wife asked me what books and other sources I had looked into since leaving the church and I had listened to 75% of the episode that day!
I read the Dear Mormon Man post just the other day and it made me sick to think about. If it were me facing that environment for the first time, there's no way I'd put up with it at all. Being raised in the church from little children and taught by mothers and women around you that this is "the way" is the only way I can imagine it successfully taking root each rising generation. You can fight all you want within the church to change things, but that will either never work or it will take generations. If you want something to change quickly, leave en masse, taking children with you, and be sure to let your bishop/stake president know why you're leaving.
I look at Sam Young and the Ordain Women group, trying to change things from within. They just get excommunicated and silenced, and nothing happens. But if the church were to start losing thousands of mothers along with the rising generation, that will get their attention very quickly, and they'll start to change.
Agree. I’ve just now found out the fraudulent truths of church and I immediately told my children (19-28 yrs old) so that hopefully now it is not perpetuated. Now I’m trying to figure out how I want to actually leave. If I want to just become inactive or resign & tell the bishop why. If I want to be outspoken to my friends & family. I keep going back & forth how I want to handle it. Ironically I’m waiting on my husband to come around before I make a move.
Almost all women are attracted to and gravitate to strong and assertive men. The patriarchy is inevitable. If a vacuum is created it will soon be filled.Nature abhors a vacuum
I have spoken up, for years, in church and my extended family. I have been mostly hated on and silenced, not just by men but by other women.
Brilliant!
Favorite part was talking about how finding out God isn't really the dominator described in the Bible, sets you free to know a merciful God (like Jesus illustrated in the Gospels). So helpful!
And the thing that bugged me throughout is lumping men on one side and women on the other. Some men are more sensitive and egalitarian and compassionate than some women. The sterieotypes do make sense overall, but growing up as a sensitive boy, things were so confusing hearing so much of stereotypes. I know I'm in the minority of men, but I'm definitely not the only one. To me the difference makes more sense as sensitive/insensitive, instead of male/female. But the world likely won't change terminology to accommodate the minority I'm a part of.
Thank you for having this conversation!
After your speaking, leaders of the church were afraid that you made women think that also have the right to speak up, and for sure that was a thread to them, big hug from Norway🇧🇻
Amy thank you for highlighting the devastating reality that black women are completely left out of the conversation. Frederick Douglass is my hero since childhood. I love that you bring him into this conversation.
I am so happy that Amy has recognized the patriarchy issue in Mormonism. She has started her journey! Being a scholar, her next move is to really read church history. Then she can reveal all the lies in the LDS church!
Peace on your journey, Amy!
Absolutely brilliant! I already subscribed and followed on all platforms. So excited to listen to the podcasts!
The Sumerians were the most innovative and creative of all. Check out all their inventions which we still use today. And Ianna was their goddess. The rotten Babylonians conquered them. This is fascinating, thank you Amy and John.
During the suffrage movement some of the strongest opponents were women of privilege. The same happened during the fight for ERA in the 70's. These women are often afraid to lose the economic privilege of staying home, so they vote against the interests of women who need the protection of the law, not their husbands income. The intersectionality you were talking about earlier comes into play as the struggle continues.
Great and enlightening interview. In spite of you not mentioning my favorite presidential candidate Tulsi Gabbard 😉
There are many people, men included, who love older women! I have been pursued by younger men for many years. The younger men who I have dated have all expressed their admiration for women who have grey hair and have crows feet. What I hear from them time and again is that what they love to see is women who are confident and proud. That is what is attractive to them. This has been my experience since my divorce 26 years ago. It's only my current boyfriend that I have dated a man older than me. Let's give these men who love women some props! Some of them even cook and clean
A few random observations:
1. It seems that in those cultures where male circumcision is practiced, the female hymen becomes terribly important. It may be that women are viewed to participate in the covenant with God via their relationship with their husbands.
2. I have to wonder what would have happened if a woman faced with that kind of "wall" of priesthood members had used forceful physical presence or even actual physical force to assert and enforce her right to talk to the participants directly?
3. John mentions Queen Elizabeth. The thing about Elizabeth is that she did indeed promise to obey and serve her husband in her wedding vows, and she did in fact do that in their private family life.
Great shoutout to Dr. Julie Hanks 👍🏼
She's right on. I only encountered one jacka** of a bishop during my time as a TBM; however, I encountered a lot of priesthood holders who meant well but certainly had their ideas of who I should be as a single woman and then a single mom. Just wasn't for me anymore once I had my son and I didn't want him coming up with the "privilege" of priesthood either and learning to sit in judgment of people.
She's 100% right about the future needing to be inclusive of everyone, including those with "privilege." As a single mom raising a strong boy, the future needs to include both of us.
Speaking of the temple, I've been out for a while but a couple of years before I started transitioning out of the church, I was called as a temple worker for a year and, quite honestly, it was one of the most fun callings I ever did as a TBM. Yes, I'm glad it's changed as described here, but it was the only place I consistently felt the most power as a woman. Women exercise at least borrowed priesthood in the temple. No, I never wanted the priesthood but if I had known then what I know now, then I would have lobbied to get the priesthood if that is what it takes to be truly on equal ground with men in the church.
I have qualified for the party several times over!
There are lots of good men out there. Because of society and training, they may be unaware of their privelege and patrimony. That is why I'll stand up for myself, but I'll never be "angry" with men, or partcipate in women-only groups. We need all of us to get along.
I’m reading The Firsts a book on new generation of woman in the US Congress. The rules on how to dress on the Capitol floor or the separate work out rooms or the pool only being available during certain times because two male Senators liked to swim naked. It is amazing what still hangs on.
03:01:30 …. I'm a straight white male. Am I now being blamed for slavery? What kind of point is this? "My people".... They aren't "my people"... I didn't do that...
See this is what I don't get about some people that are angry about the past. Why are they getting angry at people like me? What did I do?
Very much appreciate the many great insights on offer here. I have learned a lot, as is often the case watching Mormon Stories as a Never Mormon. Just raisiing a question over the characterisation of Judaic ritual purity, laws, to which your guest seems to ascribe the sense of 'purity' as we understand it in contemporary English. I understand from various talks by Yale's Joel Baden and other scholars of the Hebrew Bible that ritual purity as desribed in the Totah does not carry any moral weight and therefore a state of ritual impurity does not connote being or feeling dirty in any such sense. Yes, menstruation and 'nocturnal emissions' cause ritual impurity under Mosaic law, but my understanding it that is very much later Christian morality that causes us to see either as brimming with sin and shame. That aside, please keep up the great content.
I might be related to Amy McPhie Allebest. My name is Emily McPhie! 😊
I think this is the first podcast that I didn't like what John had to say... "That's my vision for your movement." She has her own vision for her movement. She doesn't need yours. Your comments didn't sit with me today. Too much you in there. Loved Amy tho!
Sorry!!! Amy is amazing though!!!
At 1:37:55, “schism in their psyche.” Brilliant.
The LDS religion is sooo American.
Things tend to reflect the culture that spawned them.
This podcast seemed to me to inspire us to rethink our judgements and labels and see what’s possible.
@@calebspears8694 Certainly we all uniquely find what we will in this podcast, as in all things.
Patriarchy is inevitable
I used to like the veil over my face. Nap time!!!
Want to achieve respect and equality, invent something, build something, go into your garage and design and create the first personal computer. Nothing is holding you back unless you decide your time is better spent cheerleading than learning STEM, and spending a time complaining about men holding you back from entering the garage and grabbing a tool. Men are tired of building 99.9% of the things that make the world work-planes, trains, automobiles, communication systems... everything. We would love for women to take the burden from us. Climb a tower, dig a ditch, do the difficult and dangerous jobs. Stop complaining. DO SOMETHING! We all all have to EARN respect. It will never be handed to you unless you live in a fairy tale world of the woke and ignorant. Maybe then, men can live longer, without 99% of the burden on our shoulders. It's up to you whether you have the guts and willingness. If not, get out of the way. That goes for weak men as well. Jeff Bezos isn't evil, he's just smarter and more resourceful that we are.
I believe I was promised........a party?
Murder is murder, whether committed by father or mother. And rape is a death penalty crime in the Bible. What if we really put rapists to death?
I guess i just dont even understand this kind of thinking my mother and grandmothers grew up in a time when men very much controlled most things, but they still had their own minds my grandmother was in the military was a photographer and a writer, it didnt occur to her to sit around and wait until a man gave her permission to do something she just did it,my other grand mother worked outside the home when it was more acceptable to be at home these women did whatever it took to lead in her own way its called being a grown ass woman
Men and women’s spheres - how has the industrial revolution affected the view of these roles, quite separately from religion? At the time Deuteronomy 6 was written, both parents would have been working on the farm, right, according to physical strength and interest and need. Both parents were to teach the children - both were expected to be with the kids from rising up to lying down, sitting at table and walking along the way. All day. Is that maintaining human life only? Genesis 1, both male and female were given to rule over the earth and its creatures. Adam’s first assignment in this mission was to observe the difference between animals and name them: mastery in the sense of science. Both were given to rule the earth together - make progress in this beautiful earth together. It’s not stasis.
I enjoyed this podcast, but was a little put off by the circumcision comment. The "painful realization" is that women can't participate? While I can see that it is exclusionary, it's also a terrible practice. Ritualistic genital cutting of unconsenting minors is wrong.
Bare shoulders were a thing far before the 1920's.
I particularly like the part, early on, where she talks about the deeper history of patriarchy. I appreciate how much I learned from that. But I get the impression she hasn't dug back deep enough with questions of "Why". Why did those dominator cultures implement patriarchy into their system to begin with? Why has patriarchy lasted so long and prospered so much? I get an impression that she's absorbing all this info about what the history is and how to interpret it (kudos to her for that), but not as good of a job thinking critically about it. And based on her mentioning the high prevalence throughout world history of a dominator society conquering an egalitarian/matri-focal society, one reason I come up with would be that they understood the benefit of patriarchy toward protecting/preserving their society from being destroyed by an outside force. Which begs the question, which is worse, the oppression/suffering that seems inherent of a patriarchal system, or the vulnerability to an outside force that seems inherent of a matriarchal system? Anyway, my personal opinion so far is that we will never be able to fully get rid of patriarchy, and I don't think we need to or should, since her citation has shown us how much worse the alternative is. At least some suffering will be inevitable, no matter what kind of system we have. The best we can do is regulate/modify it to reduce the damage (which is what America and Western Civilization have already been doing for a while now), and continually clean up the mess it leaves in its wake, making those regulation/modification/clean-up efforts a regular part of our economy/culture.
I also find it a bit unfortunate that she said so much about ways in which patriarchy has hurt people, but no mention of how it has helped people (of which I'm sure much could also be said). That seemed a bit one-sided of a perspective.
As a follow up, I've now listened to the 1st episode of the podcast, about the book "The Chalice And The Blade". Good work. (Pleasantly surprised to hear a reference to Jordan Peterson. I happen to be a fan of him.) I may reach some different conclusions than she does (so far), but I think it's good work she's doing, so I encourage her to keep it up. It's beneficial to get another side of the story.
I suppose her point is that ultimately whether patriarchy is beneficial or not, we should be striving for egalitarianism. Patriarchy by its structure has a blind spot for half the population. We can’t know the full harms of patriarchy tot how it compares with the benefits since much of the harms are not documented or acknowledged. The book Invisible Women does a great job of detailing the many failings of our patriarchal society regarding women in the most basic of plans or systems.
@@mills3026 You're right, Patriarchy does tend to bring a bunch of harm along with its benefits. But its benefits are far too great for us to simply dismantle it entirely (plus it has proven to be such a cost-effective ethos that we probably couldn't if we wanted to). I'm a fan of egalitarianism, but I think we should elaborate on what we mean by it, and what it should look like. I don't think the Matrifocal approach she talks about is ideal on its own, partly b/c it has not stood the test of time. I think we're better off having a . . . I'll use the word collaboration . . . between Patriarchy and Matriarchy, maintaining a certain sense of balance and homeostasis, like the yin and yang of Taoism. I'll call it Matriarchy (unlike her) b/c I think it's supposed to operate differently from the hierarchical approach of Patriarchy. It operates the way society needs it to operate, just like Patriarchy does. We have Patriarchy to help us make progress toward a higher quality of existence, and we have Matriarchy to help us clean up any collateral damage left in the oppressive wake of that progress. And I think our Western civilization is lately doing a decent job overall, operating in that way, maintaining that balance.
Another thing I might say, which might ruffle a few feathers, is that part of the reason Patriarchy has been our structure of choice over Matriarchy has been b/c of human sexuality. And female sexuality has dominated that selection/determination process just as much as male sexuality has, perhaps even more so. (Although I would argue that's one of the benefits of the Matriarchal approach, that it provides greater understanding of female sexuality. Perhaps even of sexuality overall.)
@@mills3026 And thanks for the book reference, I'll check it out when I get a chance.
When Eave in the garden sinned to become like God, also wanting children, the right of priesthood was removed from her and given to Adam. That for the higher calling of marriage and bringing the hole family to heaven with us is not something a women can do. So when the opinions of being unfair come into play, that when things become corrupt, and the original gospel becomes changed again and made null and void. Kind of like King Solomon wanting to be wise, then God ruled his kingdom, and is a equal trade. That doesn't mean they are totally left out, they get it through their husband that hold the key, by filling in a function, not that they get it.
We believe that man will be held accountable for their own sins and not for Adam’s transgression
They were also commanded to multiply and replenish the earth, so Eve got the ball rolling
Neither the man without the women nor the women without the man
Both are a part of society and both have agency both have voices both have compassion and both are leaders and teachers, we miss out on important voices that make society better when we exclude groups of people with valuable insight.
A governing party that is only governed by once side of its membership, neglects the rights and needs of its members.
All men are created equal male , female, black , white, bond and free this is taught in the Book of Mormon,
Unfortunately this teaching hasn’t been historically abided by.
Priesthood power isn’t men’s, it is God’s.
The priesthood power is the power of God( Heavenly Mother and Father are both Gods and their purpose is to bring about the immortality and eternal life of man)(ie going back home to live with him and to become like him),
Priesthood power and authority are available to individuals who need his help, yes men are ordained to hold priesthood keys and are supposed to use it to serve not rule over, But women have access to priesthood power too.
God is with Adam but he is also with Eve
@@Selilokie thank you
We are leaving.
If a doctrine teaches one that they are broken automatically by sin when entering the world and that a blood sacrifice is needed to save them and then they have to eat the sacrificial victim every sunday in remembrance how can that doctrine be helpful in bettering mental health? This is Chrisitanity's most disgusting and harmful teaching that blood atonement can forgive anyone for anything and that Mercy is accept Jesus or not and therby accept damnation and Hell. That's not mercy and blood sacrifice for forgivness can only lead to thinking violence and suffering is key to changing ones life for the better and accepting forgivness. It's derivative of ancient human sacrofcial cult offerings.
Baal means lord, and moloch means king. The gods of the peoples around the Israelites were power based. The law of the God of the Israelites, though, said you don’t even have a human king unless you envy the nations around you. If you get a king, that king is not permitted to amass money or military or women. Jesus is the only king in history to obey these laws concerning kings. And he said he was among us as a servant. Re: circumcision: would you consider thinking about this as a bit and bridle for men, that the sexuality of the physically stronger sex had to be placed second to God, who requires loving neighbor as self?
Incidentally, Yahweh means I Am, or the self-existent one, or the Living God. Adonai, lord, was seldom used in the OT scriptures to identify God.
This is so triggering.
The brethren will always know what is best for the members. Believing blacks were disobedient in the pre-existence and could not hold the priesthood was in our best interest. Women's place in the home and motherhood is in their best interest. Not teaching the truth about the origins of the church and it's history was in members best interest. Your a complete idiot if you don't believe that! You see, it's not up to us to think for ourselves. By doing so we might be led astray. By only believing and obeying in the prophets voices will happiness be found. They know what's best for each of us and we should never question anything that doesn't feel right. By doing so you are being influenced by Satan. Just obey and pretend to be happy. What is so difficulty about that? Just don't worry about it, the brethren will never lead anyone astray!
Why do Mormons have a RUclips channel
Every building was built by a majority of men, but every person was born of woman. And indeed, the vast majority were raised by women. Society itself was built by men who were raised by women. A patriarchy raised and influenced by the matriarchy, male centric because it was first female centric. So in a way, women create far more than men.
That is quite the tapestry of virtue signaling.
@@jprkzoo3463 how so?
@@stevenpictures1 You sound like a little boy bringing the teacher an apple. Did you get your approval and pat on the head ? lol There is no point in a debate; you can''t decompile a thought process until it suffers the residuals. I'm just simply amused as an outsider, how deep the denial of 350 million years of the hierarchy of nature has become. The Universe will demand payment. It cares not how you feel, for your virtue, and is not based in egalitarianism.
@@jprkzoo3463 I feel like you're just insulting me without putting forth a proper counter argument. I'm not denying any hierarchy of nature, if anything I am saying that the patriarchy is inherent in human society which is perpetuated by the women who live in it. Women are inherently more connected to children than men by virtue of the price they have to pay to reproduce children. Man cannot suffer what woman suffers. So while the woman is connected to the children, the man needs to do what makes him a man to support the woman and her children.
Now whatever payment I must pay to the universe, I will gladly pay it.
@@stevenpictures1 You should be insulted by your own words.
Get back up on that horse and RIDE!!! You ROCK. Have you not heard the voice of He who is mighty and strong!? If you have, His power only is omnipotent because of our Heavenly Mother. You are a royal Woman of God and Goddess! Ordained already by another woman in the temple! Claim your place. Laugh and enjoy the little men in suits’ efforts and challenge and stink! They can’t help it. This is why you are here. Ride on, girlfriend!!
All the complaints women make about mormonism ignores the fact that active women far outnumber active men in the church. Don't blame men when it's women who are adults making their own personal decisions to be active.
It’s not a about blame.
It's not like it's literally called the "patriarchy" from inside the curch or anything, but okay then. 🙄
I think most women stay active because they are trying to raise their children in righteousness. It’s the nurturing spirit. And just like the abused they have been trained to see themselves as the church wants them to be. Keep her in her place. If she is home busy raising her children, she is left feeling very dependent on men & the church without even realizing it.
We're taught in utero that this is the only truth. I don't know if you've ever experienced a moment when you realize there's truth outside of what you've learned. It's scary. Sometimes it's easier to pretend you don't know and keep the status quo.
I'm not saying all women are trapped. There are incredible women in the church who know and who choose to stay.
I'm just saying it's more complicated than simply stating adult women choose to stay and use that as evidence there's nothing odd going on. It's much more nuanced than that.