Precisely Scoring an ILS Approach - Hand Flying IFR in Gusty Wind
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 27 май 2021
- Hand flying a windy ILS - Precisely scoring a flight with CloudAhoy.
Proudly associated with ForeFlight: www.foreflight.com/flightchops
Debrief, Compare, and Score your VFR & IFR Flights at: www.cloudahoy.com/flightchops
This is an other episode from the multipart series covering this mission - playlist here:
• Old school IFR across ...
Check your score in CloudAhoy to see how well you did after a flight or to identify areas to practice and improve on your next flight.
Those new to CloudAhoy can sign up for the free 35 day trial of CloudAhoy Pro - www.cloudahoy.com - and even use it to upload and debrief past ForeFlight track logs - www.foreflight.com
Want to see how you compare to Flight Chops and other pilots?
Take a screenshot of your debrief, add the hashtag #CloudAhoyScore, and share it on Twitter and Instagram.
Our pilot community can cheer for and support each other to stay active while challenging ourselves to have fun, be safe and stay proficient.
#GeneralAviation #CloudAhoyScore #IFRcrosscountry
After years of avoiding getting into “Merch”, enough people requesting it finally inspired me to launch a store - All of the revenue goes back into producing quality aviation content.
Support FlightChops and get your merch at the new store:
FlightChops.store/
Huge thanks to all the Supporters on Patreon! Productions like this wouldn't be possible without your help and ongoing support.
Check out FlightChops’ on Patreon to find out how you can be part of it: / flightchops
Sponsor & Supporter Links:
ForeFlight
www.foreflight.com/flightchops/
Bose Aviation
www.bose.com/a20/
Van’s Aircraft
www.vansaircraft.com/
CloudAhoy
www.cloudahoy.com/P/flightchops/
Infinite Flight
infiniteflight.com/
The Finer Points of Flying - Jason Miller:
adventure.learnthefinerpoints...
Spectrum Airways Flight Training:
www.spectrumairways.com/
FLIGHT CHOPS DISCLAIMER:
I am a "weekend warrior" private pilot, I fly for fun with no intentions of going commercial. I have had my PPL for over 15 years, but still consider each flight a learning experience - I generally take detailed notes after each flight to remind myself what went well or what I could do to improve.... Having GoPro cameras to record flights like this is invaluable. I find these self analysis videos very helpful in my constant quest to improve, and am happy to share. Feedback is invited; however, please keep it positive.
Visit www.FlightChops.com/ for behind-the-scenes content, epic giveaways and to search episodes by aircraft type!
Nothing feels better than an ILS flown to mins and even though you KNOW those needles are centered, looking up at 200' and seeing that runway right there just gives you a feeling of "this is what flying is about', with a little bit of 'yeah, still got it', especially in gusty conditions (it can be a shock sometimes to see the runway way off to the side due to the crab). I will have to give CloudAhoy a try and see how my scores look the next approach (never good enough)...and I am due for some recurrency.
I think of doing approaches in IMC like doing a magic trick, especially from the passenger perspective. Making a runway appear out of nowhere seems so cool, and even when you know how the "trick" is done, there's still something insanely cool about making it happen.
Sounds terrifying as well, not looking outside as you barrel towards the ground hoping you haven't made a mistake
All that technical talk just threw me back 20 years into the ATR-810 simulator I used at ground school for my IFR training (Piper Navajo)
I did all of my training on a G1000. Now that I'm working on CFI, I'm on a 1973 Cessna 172 with a 6 pack, a single VOR receiver, and no GPS. It's a LOT of fun and also challenging.
I let my CloudAhoy subscription lapse because I wasn't flying enough to really use it. I promised them I'd re-subscribe when the RV-8 is complete. Looking forward to keeping that promise; assembling the paint booth around the fuselage now. Speaking of tailwheel, the DCT Decathlon resurrection is almost complete; hope to be flying that soon! And in other news, hearing rumors the border might open up in July. Gotta get back in the Chippie!
I was super impressed at Steve's handling of the approach (and landing). He set the bar high for me when I finally get my ifr ticket;
Thanks buddy! So glad this mission worked out with our schedules aligning to do it together.
When you looked up and saw the runway I realised I had been holding my breath! Great video Steve.
You should make some competitions using Cloudahoy amongst your pilot viewers to see who can get the highest score! It sounds like this could be a fun activity for students at a flight school too that could help improve ILS approaches through a, hopefully, safe and friendly competition.
Yes, I think this is a plan we will work toward.
Nice teamwork on display, you’re both becoming very good pilots: thoughtful, systematic, discerning, and comprehensive.
I'm digging this cross country. It covers a lot: steam gauge IFR, Jurassic Autopilot and everybody getting used to a new aircraft type.
The intake for Cessna's carb comes from outside of the lower cowling, so the air is always at ambient temps. Piper's (at least the cherokee 140 I had) had the carb air intake above and behind the right bank of cylinders, so the air gets somewhat heated. Also in my Cherokee...I rarely used full flaps because I would run out of elevator especially when there was another person on board. Besides...the thing did not need any more help falling out of the air.
Yeah I'm doing my PPL in a PA28 Warrior and we turn carb heat off on final as part of our C.R.A.P checks( Carb off, Runway Clear, Approach Stable and Permission ).
I like that final check
Agree I like that check, I might steal it.
Well done. I started learning IFR almost 20 years ago and it was in this nway
Well done Steve and Blake!
Thanks Paul! I hope you’re well! When this RV-14 is flying, I hope to visit you and do some IFRing around the south!
It shall be done!🙂👍
From what I understand, the air intake in pipers routes the intake over the engine exhaust and warms it before entering the carburetor while Cessna doesn’t. So piper preheats air prior to the carburetor while Cessna relies on the carb heat to do that
No.
The engines are the same for the most part. Parallel valve Lycomings. The carb is mounted on the oil pan and the air box below it or to the side nowhere near the exhaust.
The difference in procedure is a throwback to when Cessna used Continental engines... which Piper didn’t use since the PA-11 Cub days. Continental O-200 (on the 150, O-300 (on the 172 until 1967), and O-470 (on the 182 until 1986) had carbs away from the oil pan so they would ice up very easily at low power settings.
I’ve never had any Lycoming ice up just because the power was low.. you needed to be deep into carb icing conditions for it to happen.
Great to refresh the Old school ways..Steam worked for Many many yrs.
great episode ...gusty.
This was great, thank you.
I was trained to decend with carb heat but always have it off for final so you have power for a "Go Around". You often get a reduction in power with carb heat due to the reduction in air decity with heat.
Independent of the Piper vs Cessna situation: Carb heat slightly reduces performance, therefore if it was used during descent (which I would always do at least whenever the outside air temperature is below +20°C), I would still always turn it off on short final in order to have full power available in case of a go-around.
I would not do that. Icing can form amazingly quickly. Depending on your definition of short final, you might have a minute or more to accumulate carb ice. Then you add full throttle for the missed and your engine stumbles and loses power at a most in opportune time. I was taught to add full throttle, retract flaps and, gear if required, and then remove carb heat as it has less affect on performance than does either gear or flaps. And this ensures you get full throttle immediately and begin to add heat to the engine before removing carb heat.
@@LTVoyager By "short" final I was indeed referring to the very last minute before touchdown, which is also the way I was taught in flight school. I highly doubt that ONE minute will suffice for icing in a pre-heated(!) carburetor. We all have the same goal here: both no icing and full go-around performance. That being said: I'm not saying your method is wrong, it's just a different philosophy. Reasoning: Any go-around is a more stressful moment than the last minute on a stable approach (and when it's not "stable", it'll end up in a go-around anyways) --> higher chance of forgetting something; moreover attention in a go-around should be focussed mainly on airspeed... and not retracting the flaps to early before picking up speed, or it's gonna be an interesting sink rate (/stall), especially when it's an aircaft with manual/non-electric flaps that has no transition time. I made that mistake ONCE, without full stall and nothing bad happend, but I was shocked how quickly I lost altitude again. We all know the theory, but it's different after actually experiencing it. I will never make that mistake again and not having to be distracted by dealing with carb heat in a crucial moment may help with that.
Disclaimer: most of my carburetor experience is indeed from back in the days at flight school and some rentals. From there on, most of my flight time was in my fuel-injected Beechcraft, so no carb heat issues anyways. The best carb heat is the one you don't need ;-). I think fuel-injected engines have a safety advantage there.
@@___Chris___ Yes, we agree in objective. Keep in mind that the carburetor, engine and exhaust will be much cooler after a long approach at low power settings so carb ice can form fast. I prefer to not have to be doing anything on short final other than looking for the runway (assuming IMC) and landing the plane. And if someone mistakenly pulls the mixture rather than carb heat on short final…
Given the very small performance penalty of carb heat, having it on in the early stage of a go-around, or even throughout the go-around if it is forgotten, seems the lesser of the evils as compared to making configuration changes on short final.
@@LTVoyager as someone who has done A LOT of circuits with students who forget to turn off the carb heat during the go around with full flaps in a PA38, I can guarantee that turning off carb heat on short final, once you know you can make the runway, is a good flow to get used to. The thing will not climb in that configuration. turning off the carb heat during a go around results in a much higher risk of the student pulling back the wrong lever, since the workload is just so much higher.
@@BB992 A Traumahawk won’t climb out at full power with carb heat on? Something is seriously wrong if that is the case. I learned in C150s and they would climb at full power with carb heat on. They would climb a little better with it off, but it probably made only 50 FPM or so difference. I only flew a -38 one time and I don’t recall if I ever tried to climb at full throttle with carb heat, but I can’t believe carb heat will make the difference between climbing and not.
Very nice video. My dad flew out of Regina with air ambulance in the 50s 60s and 70s. I'm just a sim pilot but I watch lots of real flying videos. Before I lost my leg above the knee my dad paid for some flight lessons and two weeks before my amputation I got seven and a half hours in. I'm starting to learn ILS on the SIM but with Garmin 1000 in a Cessna 172 and a TBM 930.
Good on you Andy, go for it. The simming world realism is incredible (and challenging to fly well in) these days compared to back when I first discovered FS98!
That was a terrific flight. Neat technology at work!
Great job on the ILS approach!
Thanks!
Great work, that looked like it took a lot of concentration to do that.
As far as carb air, I have always left it on until around 200ft before touch down then it goes back to cold, but I have only ever flown O-200 equipped C120 and C150 that are notorious for icing, the O-320 in the 172 seemed less so but we used the same technique.
Mel
Awesome Steve. IFR’s not in my real flying budget at this time (i.e. non-FSX!) so this was a great experience - it’s not just another vid with a few ATC calls, but you share your whole thinking, planning and learning process. I find that fun esp with the steam gauges) but also invaluable even as a VFR driver. Maybe one day....!?
Glad you enjoyed this one - I wasn’t sure if I’d just come across as an IFR newbie tripping out about over analysing a routine ILS approach
@@FlightChops That’s what makes it so interesting and relevant though, sharing the learning, going for PB whatever the stage. I thought I overanalysed my simple 3mc last week and my instructor still found things I missed up! (low hour pilot woes)🥴
I was told that reason you don’t need to worry about carb heat on Pipers vs Cessnas is because the carburetor is located on top of the engine vs bottom on Cessna so it gets a lot of heat from the engine naturally.
Pretty much all of them are on the bottom as both Cessna and Piper use the same two engine manufacturers with similar architectures. Different inlet designs can make one airframe more tolerant of it than another, but both require carb heat when the engine is at lower power (higher butterfly angle) and/or the right conditions to form ice. My first carb ice experience was on a 65 degree day that I wouldn't even call humid in a Piper 180 with a Lycoming O-360.
In our 172 P, the air intake goes through the middle of the oil pan, so carb heat really isn't ever necessary.
@@mattbasford6299 Your 172P most likely uses the Lycoming O-320 which has a different intake routing setup than the Continental.
@@mattbasford6299 its the intake manifold that goes through the oil pan on those engines. The carburetor is still below it and exposed outside the engine. Carb ice happens in the venturi of the carb due to the pressure drop and that happens before the air charge goes into that manifold and is warmed by the oil in the pan, so the risk is still very real, especially at lower power settings. There is a reason it is called "carb ice" and not "induction ice". Follow the POH.
Another great video Steve, cool to see the CA scoring system, like you alluded to I think it will inspire people to strive for better performances, particularly when practicing. I don't think you guys had enough cameras going at the end there ;)
i was taught to use carby heat in the approach, and to turn it offat 300-500' agl with the PUFFC checks, so that in the event of a go-around you dont have to turn it off first, and you have full power straight away.
Good stuff guys
Wow Steve! That was super intense! I am going to start my instrument training as soon as I have access to an IFR rated airplane and I think what you did is a fun activity I will partake of. Thank you for producing this video!
Best of luck and keep in touch through that IFR training!
It was a tough one for me to get through but it felt great to get it finally!
@@FlightChops Hey Steve, I sure will! John over at Fly8MA also wants to help me along this path which I hope starts soon.
I would DEFINITELY use continues carb heat in those weather conditions. The reduction in engine performance is small and the margin of engine reliability increase is large. It sure won’t “hurt” the engine. EXCELLENT hand flying skills, by the way. I have over 5000 hours of actual hard IFR and I am not as sharp as you (anymore).
Great job
Piper's engine layout is definitely less conducive to carb icing, and the POH recommends against carb heat unless absolutely necessary - don't want all that unfiltered air if you can avoid it.
I was a bit mystified by the Piper "turn carb heat off on final" thing too, but I think its a good idea because if you have to do a go-around, you don't want to forget that carb heat is still on.
just make it a checklist item like everyting else..
Do you forget to put in power, too?
@@Bartonovich52 if that was meant to be funny, try harder.
FliteChops for life
Always thought it was because Pipers bypass the intake air filter when carb heat is on, so down low you might ingest bugs or junk. Check carb heat to see that it’s working and the carb is clear of ice. If no ice, turn carb heat off.
My downwind flow checks on the Cherokee 140 on flying... GUMPS, Boost pump, carb heat on and leave it on. If I need to go full throttle, I can use my thumb to push in the carb heat to off while powering up at the same time.
Great job Steve. I'd fly with you anytime.
Thanks Richard! I greatly appreciate that - and thanks for being such a long time subscriber!
I think the carb heat in Pipers vs Cessnas is down to history…Cessnas mostly used Continentals through the 60s and Piper has always used Lycomings. As others have pointed out, Lycoming engines bolt the carburetor to the oil sump and the intake tubes pass through it, somewhat mitigating the need for carb heat. When Cessna introduced its first Lycoming powered airplane (the 177, I believe), it likely kept the same guidance it had previously used regarding carburetor heat because it worked.
Carb heat air source is not filtered on most aircraft, this, and the fact you want all available power on a go-around is why I turn off the carb heat on final.
How it was explained to me was that on a Piper, the air intake (and thus the carb) is at the rear of the motor, closer to the firewall; and on a Cessna it is closer to the front of the motor, closer to the prop. This allows for more heating of the intake air in a Piper when compared to a Cessna, which leads to a decrease in likelihood of induction ice in Piper products. Please correct me if my understanding is incorrect, but that is how I currently understand the idea.
The carb ice was insane! Pipers's RPM gauge shows a large green area where no carb heat is required. Only in close to idle, would you need it. I'm impressed it actually iced up at 75% cruise power. Were the cowl flaps closed?
You don’t fly out of CYTZ anymore ? Lovely approach!!
I noticed when you were talking about carb heat and the weather conditions, you left out a crucial point where is dew point/humidity. The largest danger of carb icing is in conditions of warmer air temps and high humidity.
My understanding also with carb heat for landing is the heated airflow is unfiltered and could contain ground debris which is why it's not recommended near the ground.
But for Cessnas I was trained to land with the carb heat on...?
@@FlightChops Seems like it, just looked into a couple cessna POH and they say to put carb on full heat before closing throttle.
@@FlightChops
Yes, it's good to land with carb heat on because you can pick up icing very quickly, even on short final. And Glenn is correct about it being unfiltered, but because the throttle is pretty much idle on approach, it will not pull dusty air into it. But if you decided to put full power on, then it would force dusty air through it so that's when you have to quickly turn it off before applying full power for a go-around. Also when carb heat is turned on it also changes the air to fuel ratio, so it could also backfire when full power is applied fully on a go-around, causing the engine to go BANG!
It's interesting how we do things differently. I never use flaps on a instrument approach. If I use flaps to land at all, I put them in after I see the runway.
Non instrument rated pilot here... Why do you opt no flaps on approach?
The way I was taught was to set first notch of flaps at the FAF. If you’re descending to minimums on an ILS approach, you don’t want to need 20° or 30° of flaps as you’re crossing the threshold and capturing the runway environment.
@@VictoryAviation I don't have to have flaps to land. I sometimes use them and sometimes don't
@@daniellamb7828 I just don't see the need for them. I set the plane up at 90K when I enter the hold or procedure turn. I just don't like configuration changes unless they are absolutely necessary.
@@mattbasford6299 It’s obviously not required. There’s nothing in the ACS that says a pilot must use any. I was saying that if flaps are needed or desired, it wouldn’t be ideal to begin using them at 200’ AGL as one was crossing the threshold.
RE: the Piper vs Cessna carb heat. The exhaust manifold in at least the PA-28 is right below the carb, so the air is in effect preheated. Not sure what Cessna does.
My understanding of identifying carb ice, is you see an initial drop of RPM due to warmer less sense air being introduced. If there is ice you will see the initial DROP then a RISE in RPM as the ice melts. Just a drop in RPM does not indicate nice has formed, it indicates carb heat is working.
Yes, we had a big RPM drop, rough running (presumably while burning off the water), then it settled to “the normal drop” due to the warm air- if you listen to the audio you can hear it. Especially on the second one.
@@FlightChops yep! That sounds like ice for sure! Always slightly unnerving when that happens. Well done, thanks for the video, always enjoy watching.
Ball Cap is normal procedure shooting Instrument approach practice in a Lear Jet!
Yep, it can be WELL above freezing temperature, but the high-speed airflow and atomising fuel in the carb can produce extremely low temperatures in the venturi.
Insights appreciated Ian.
And thanks for sticking around as a +6 year subscriber!
Can you share how you found this one?
I'm hearing a lot of subscribers say they are having a harder time finding the videos lately.
@@FlightChops I've heard a lot of creators talking about this problem, but I don't seem to have any issues with subscribed channel videos just dropping in to my feed. BTW, I don't have the bell checked for any of my subscriptions or any social media, because I'm at notification overload just with every day work emails etc. Love your content.
Hm. Gotta get my cessna out in x-Plane for this. I can do that in a 737 but can I in a Cessna? Guess I´ll find out.
I mean if not that would be kinda embaressing. lol
Oh yea you guys do use the Ipad Mini for navigation 😄
yup :)
Also, the other potential hazard of leaving carb heat on is having unfiltered air in the carburetor upon landing.
Yes, exactly.
Assume this approach profile/ grading is in the pro subscription version only?
Yes, that is the case.
Comments that Piper’s are less susceptible to carb ice than Cessna’s and then twice demonstrates carb ice in the Piper. 😂. I personally leave carb heat on during approach. The extra heat is useful at low power settings and you don’t want you engine stumbling as you apply throttle for a missed. On most airplanes, you lose only 100 RPM or an inch of MP with carb ice, so the power hit is significant, but not as much a hit as are flaps or landing gear. My preference is to add full throttle, retract the gear, retract the flaps and then remove carb heat. On most airplanes, that is the order that most affects performance in the missed.
Latest weather at what?
Wouldn't the drop in RPM just come from switching from cold, dense air to hot air? That would explain the bigger drop on the second one.
We had a big RPM drop, rough running (presumably while burning off the water), then it settled to “the normal drop” due to the warm air- if you listen to the audio you can hear it. Especially on the second one.
Did you bracket the wind correction or just guess the course adjustments..?
It was mostly guessing with some degree of not guessing :)
But yes I was trying to bracket, although it was really gusty so it was hard to pick a particular correction that worked all the way down.
Without GPS, wind correction is about starting with ATIS, guessing the course adjustment, and then bracketing smaller adjustments...but GPS receivers can tell you the exact actual winds by calculating your airspeed vs groundspeed, a powerful tool...
@@TheKevintegra19 for sure yes. This mission was essentially about appreciating how much harder it is with out GPS.
And I have edited my initial reply to add some more context.
How does Blake watch for traffic in IMC?
Despite having filed IFR, and flying the ILS for real, we’re not in IMC; it was actually a very clear day, just gusty strong wind. But anyway, it is still an IFR pilots responsibility to watch for traffic in VMC conditions. So that is why Blake was watching, while I was “under the hood”.
@@FlightChops Kinda just kidding: ) I really enjoy your channel, thanks for your hard work, and great content!
Sorry...flying it into where? ._.
3rd :0
first
Approach into what?? Hahaha sorry
Regina, SK
yeah caught me off gaurd
North Americans have such bad R/T. Very sloppy and easy to misinterpret instructions if you're just listening for the numbers