This is basically how it works in Pathfinder 2e, though more streamlined / flexible (since dedication feats aren't required). I've liked how PF2 handles the multiclass dedications, so this already feels very appealing. The only concern is how sometimes it's just a single feature that winds up upsetting the balance, and being able to take that without stalling your progression (like cha-to-atk and dmg for hexblade) reintroduces that problem, but if you're proactive that's something you can at least design around (and, an example of that is how the Prime Attribute rule already avoids this hexblade problem).
Or things that give you more things than others. I think some features will be heavier than others. Also, a good question would be if scalable features count as one or many. Like "at lv 5 you gain X, and at lv7 you gain Y thing". For example, in PF1e, the ranger's combat feats mention you get 1 feat at lv 2,6,and 10. In Pathfinder 2e, the Dedication feats do break this a bit. A good example are spells. for one dedication feat, you gain spells from lv 1,2,3, for another feat you get lv 4,5,6. Essentially, how the game will break features will be interesting.
I think there's a similarity in the "dedication feats" and DC20 lvl 7 talent grab requirement. At lvl 7 he said that you have to have taken 1 class's talent before getting a lvl 3 talent grab. As a GM I think I'd still prefer the Archetype style of PF2e, as it is organized and balanced. This current system explained in this video seems to favor martials dipping into caster levels, based on how the Mana and Stamina system operates (ie at level 1 you can use your multiclass Mana to upgrade your spells when cast, whereas your techniques will be static until you talent grab again).
It's also similar to 4e's "multiclassing" -- although that was really terrible. I've made up a few of my favorite multi-class concepts in DC20 and they came out much better than 4e's watered-down rules and 3e and 5e's given an an entire level up. Hexblade shouldn't be an issue in DC 20 as you use your highest stat for attacks and spells anyway. If you have a 3 charisma, you use that for both attacks and spells. Thus, all characters are already hex blades. Druid -- Forest Knight Archer -- My 3.5e druid took a bunch of archery feats. In DC20, at 2nd, I took a fighter talent, and now I have a druid able to use a bow, heavy armor, and weapon actions with a stamina for the rare special ability at the cost of having slightly less druid abilities. It seems easy, gets the results, and isn't broken. Cleric/Warlock -- My 5e concept. It was pretty straight forward, you use your highest mental ability for both spell casting, and you beef up some cleric abilities in return for a slightly higher level warlock ability. Easy, balanced, and it gives the same flavor. So far, I like this. Unlike previous D&D (other than 4e), you aren't costing levels, just some higher level abilities, and you aren't grabbing everything from the class... yet you (unlike 4e) actually feel like an X/Y. Another big advantage is there isn't any 'bad' combinations. In 5e, some classes worked terribly together, some classes paid such a penalty for multiclassing no one did and many were forced together based on attributes. DC20 does a good job to removing these limits.
This is basically learning feats but without having to create feats. And you've created a bridge for martial and spellcaster classes to be able to multiclass with each other. Very beautiful, well done!
Interesting. Certainly better thought out than 5e's barely functional multiclassing system. It does feel like despite his assurances that multiclassing is being considered when designing class features that there are going to be busted builds based on cherry picking key abilities.
Wow, that has quite nice RP potential... Like Sorcerer NPC could show Wizard PC some trick and Wizard managed to recreate it with his arcane knowledge to some extent. Wizard is still a Wizard, but with just a little additional perk which makes them different and it does not slow spell progresion like in 5e.
Yet, 4e "multiclassing" was terrible. It was so weak, it wasn't worth it. It seemed more like checking a box to say they had it vs. an actual system. Then again, its hard to see what did and didn't work when the entire system didn't work. I don't blame WotC for dropping nearly everything as they basically lost their market share due to 4e and had 5e failed they would probably be bankrupt/sold off. When something is that broken, far better to go back to ground zero than risk the company on things which you aren't 100% sure are the problem. Yes, this appears to fix some of the issues -- getting everything, limiting your progression, broken/useless combos, etc. The key would be if those class features as (by themselves) significant enough to be more than window dressing or if there is a serious power issue with taking lower level other class abilities vs. higher-level traits.
@@BW022 from a game balance perspective it was a great system. Many of my players multiclassed for flavor or to pick up something the group lacked. A backup heater was very popular. But adding some minion killing AOE was an option that grew in popularity as levels rose. 4e was a great game system but lacked the style and flavor of the other systems. One D&D / 2024 originally looked like another 4e waiting to happen. Now it looks more like 3.5. Basically the same as the prior edition but just different enough that PC options aren't compatible which will drive sales.
@@BW022 there were multiple versions of multiclassing in 4e, and I'd say this is roughly as week as the basic one because your second class is barely giving you anything.
@@graveyardshift2100 Like 4e, I'd have to play test this or see it run before deciding. I've make a few DC20 characters up to see what the multiclass looks like, and I wouldn't say it barely gives you anything. Going from a caster to martial gives you stamina, weapon and armor profs, and your talent. Since your primary attack is based on your highest ability, that seems like more than 4e. However, I'd need to see it played. I merely gave the concern.
Looking forward to DC20 coach. I can’t wait to see my players customize their characters how they truly want with more freedom and not restricted to how multi-class in DnD works.
Speak for yourself. Just looking at this, I find this style more stifling than 5e's multiclassing. How's it "more freedom" to be locked into one class, only able to take small features from other classes at the expect of your main one?
This is a really strong, robust system. My only worry is that the term "multiclassong" sets expectations in a way that may not be met by DC20. If you call it something else and then reference it as "our spin on multiclassing," that might make it less jarring to see how (justifiably) restrictive it is. That's just my two cents. If other players' feedback is good, roll with it.
Talent scouting maybe? xD wondering why first talent is not at level 1 to fit the later level pattern and have it frontloaded as part of the PC backstory
I love to watching this grow and develop over the past year. I'm super excited for the Kickstarter! The multi-classing concept of this is just mind-blowing with how many unique characters you can make. 😊
Each of your videos on DC20, including this one, seems to have the same excellent theme: a fantasy RPG system with rules that make sense because you've let go of D&D's baggage (or maybe some would say traditions). Really looking forward to the release of your game!
@@TheDungeonCoach certainly looking forward to that. If the monsters are even half as amazing as the player options i am so on board for this game haha
MULTI-SUBCLASSING! YES!!! FINALLY!!! This is another way of implementing the free pool of subclass features concept and I'm all for it. With each video I'm liking DC20 even more.
This does look better. It's great that the levelling is consistent and you're not grabbing a load of traits resulting in complexity creep and balance issues. Is there a specific reason why mana and stamina can't be the same avoiding the need of adding entirely different tables just for learning how to hit good?
Mana and stamina function very differently in the system in terms of usage and recovery. I think it would be very difficult to combine them into a single resource system.
do you think it would not work if martials did use "mana" for all their features too? I guess the balancing using two systems instead, is that mana is more powerful than stamina right? @@pearlhoff8888
I think, and I could VERY easily be wrong, DC did this because he didn't want that strong fighter to take one talent in magic and be able to cast his one leveled spell or make the sigil just as often as a mage who's been doing this all his life.
I kinda feel like instead of ancestry traits they can be placed in Talents for a wider pool and just get more of them since I’m kinda iffy on characters becoming more of whatever those can be, but other than that yessss big fan of the way the dips work without sacrifice. Also feel mana and stamina could be a shared pool with martials being able to generate mana from their conditional bonuses. Iffy on the tracking. It’s like the archetype in Pathfinder 2E, but if you immediately got to dip into the “good part” of the investment
I love this amazing open system of multiclassing in DC20. So many possibilities of builds. 💟 I can't wait to see Eldritch Knight subclass. Great work and great video. Thank you Coach. 👍🏻
Love it, though i fear that there will be 1-2 standout multiclass options that will overshadow everything else. To use 5e as an example, imagine if you could choose between getting Action Surge and any other feature - AS would always be the easy choice. Likewise there might be lvl 1 features that are never worth getting, either because another feature in the same class is miles better or because a non-class talent is similar enough plus some. That could lead to e.g. everyone multiclassing Barbarian to always take the same lvl 1 option - not necessarily a problem but missed potential. I'm sure you are balancing lvl 1 features around that, but it is definitely an additional challenge for class design. That being said, so far this looks wayyy better than the D&D system. Also one last question, are their other ways to get talents (beyond DM rewards/house rules)?
We do a good job of making sure there aren't any stand out features in DC20 to avoid that exact issue. Every feature is pretty well balanced against other features at the same level.
Something something PF2e (this is more or less how the archetype system in PF2e works, which in turn is essentially how D&D4e's feat based multiclassing worked). One thing that you might want to consider is to take a little more from PF2e by essentially making a talent kit for each class with it's own limited list of features, that way you can include a few more features that are "out there" and wacky without having to worry about "what will happen when this super specific bard feat mixes with this super specific wizard one".
You mention the Paladins near the end there. And that got me thinking, can you play as not a holy/unholy Paladin? Since I assume being holy means their tied to religion or a deity. One of the things I liked about them in D&D is that Paladins don't have to and that they get their powers solely from their oaths, their convictions.
Their power comes from their convictions, so they don't need to be religious. The Holy / Unholy themes their damage and abilities. It's really a distinction of good or evil.
That's a really elegant way of handling multiclassing, bravo! I love your game design logic and I've implemented so many of your ideas in my games. Can't wait for DC20!
in Dnd third Edition, the fighter was the ultimate multiclass dip. because it got all EVERYTHING in the first 4 levels, and only feats from then on. similarly, paladin got ridiculous number of powerful abilities in 3 levels. so we Saw basically fighter4/paladin16, Paladin3/Sorceror17... and you basically tried to optimize the most broken combo.
I really like this, although I do worry that it'll be difficult for other talents to keep up with those multiclass starter packs between a martial and a caster. If I was choosing between getting just a feature and getting both a feature and the starter pack, it seems like it would always be optimal to get the starter pack
May I ask, what if a Martial takes talents from two different Casters? Say a Fighter takes a talent from Wizard and a talent from Warlock. What happens with their spell points and which ability modifiers do they use for casting?
Your base Mana is almost equal to your highest Mental Attribute (Charisma or Intelligence). If one ever gets higher than the other, your base MP increases with it. All Attacks in the game work off your Prime Modifier, which is equal to your highest Attribute. A Warlock and a Wizard can each can Spells just as good as each other, since they both use your Prime Modifier for Spell Checks and Attacks.
In psthfinder 2 they have multiclass feats, which is kinda this. Now, the multi class feats are not taken from the real class feats, but from a particular multiclass table for each class you want to take a feat from. This also goes for archetypes. It allows a lot of customization but with a lot of tables that you need to compare. Here, there are not extra tables, as everything comes from the original table from that class.
Interesting take. Pathfinder does this as well, where you use your class feats to select special "multiclassing" feats that gives you some benefits of that class. The first feat you take from that class gives you a bag of dumbed down level 1 features from that class and unlocks picking more feats later. It works, but it feels a bit restrictive. Whenever I'm making a build in PF2E, I feel like the multiclassing feats are very mild and it's very difficult to significantly alter how my class plays. It often feels like it's just flavouring that barely affects gameplay. It's no wonder that most tables use the free archetype talent rule, otherwise characters going for multiclassing options can feel barren. There's a balance between sacrificing your main class progression and how much you gain from it. In 5e you stop your class progression completely, but gain all the benefits of the levels in that second class. In PF2e you sacrifice only a class feat, and get some mild benefits to flavor your class. While the 5e approach has it's problems with 1 level dips, the system feels significantly less restrictive into how you mold your gameplay. I like that in this version you get to pick one full feature from the class, and now a dumbed down version of a bag of features like in PF2E, and also that you can get subclass features (something lacking in PF2E), I think this will give you more freedom to build the character you want, but it may also become an issue to balance. In pathfinder you need to spend 2 feats to get the better features of a class, but here that only happens for subclass features. Players will naturally gravitate towards the best features.
Regarding a spellcaster with a martial talent, they also get the feature go regain stamina points from the martial classe or only gain that stamina points and when they are gone, they are gone? (already know the system from the streams but i must say it still great to hear another time your explanation). bought the alpha and can't wait to the kickstarter! (keep international shipping as low as possible, please 😁)
They don't gain the Martial Class's Stamina Recovery feature (unless that's the feature they selected). All Classes can regain Stamina in Combat by spending 2 AP to do so. That's the generic recovery method.
Hi, Coach! How can I send a feedback about the system? I played last weekend the first session of a DC20's campaign with my friends (yes, we will try to play more games in sequence, not only one shots)
If subclasses come at level 3, then it means most of 1st and 2nd level characters are going to be quite similar. I can understand you don't want to have different levels for each class, but why not start at 1st level, specially if you claim to have solved the problem of the multiplayer dips? Just think about this: why would you want a party of 4 barbarians to wait until level 4 to be completely different? Subclasses are not progression on a class, but class specialization. A samurai starts as a ronin, not as a fighter who later becomes a samurai.
If you look at the choice that each DC20 class gets at level 1 and 2 (including a multiclassing talent) then All of the classes will feel very different at levels 1 and 2. Much less how open and customized you can play your character with the 4 action points
This is amazing! I’m really loving your progress on this game. Here’s an idea: What if you ditch the concept of characters _being_ a marshal or spellcaster, and just have all characters accumulate mana/spells and stamina/maneuvers based on how many “marshal talents” or spellcasting talents” they have.
Hey, Coach. I just supported the kickstarter. I'm still skeptical of the game, but I support anybody who puts this much effort into their work. I love the production quality of the stuff I've seen so far! So, to me your talents look like renamed feats. I appreciate that you are going for a more pick-a-little-this, pick-a-little-that for game balance, but I feel like that complexity is gonna spiral out of the ability to be able to play-balance it. Out of curiosity, have you played the HERO system? It seems pretty defunct at this point, but it offered the ultimate in flexibility in creating the character that you want while still constraining it to game balance (via build points).
Sorry if this is obvious or if someone else asked this. With multiclassing being so cool in DC20 why would someone choose to not multi class , what would make someone just want to play a plain (insert class)?
love this! How do you feel about the inevitable large span of player skill that a system thats as open as this would produce? I could see this allowing a lot of different very cool builds (maybe something like the cheese grinder build in DnD) being able to pick specific stuff to really maximize your efficiency during combat is both cool and could be a small issue for some tables. (its easy to see a newer player picking several things that need stamina for instance and not really understand how to gain it or other issues) I love it, but I also have knowledge about almost all subclasses in DnD, some of my players struggle with knowing their one subclass. Im afraid that this system will be daunting. (this could be fixed with a hard focus on onboarding, getting starter character sheets for all classes at multiple levels and stuff)
At one of my training sessions I had for my players so they could learn the game, this was at level two, one of my players was a warlord and used his talent to get martial expansion. At first I thought it was an odd choice, since martials have access to martial features, and that spellcasters would really benefit from the access. One thing I overlooked was that martial expansion not only give you access to maneuvers and weapon & armor mastery but gives you 2 extra techniques and 1 more stamina. So his Warlord had 3 techniques and 3 stamina compared to 1 technique and 2 stamina. Which means he had a mean whirlwind with enhancements. I'm excited to see where builds in this game go.
Oh man. This was sounding anemic and not fun at all until the "booster pack" default care package if class abilities granted for multiclassing. That base package of core stuff flipped me 180. This sounds awesome.
I was expecting something else, is a cool "mixclass system", but is not really a "multiclass system". Maybe you can alter the name to try to set de expectations more right. But is a really cool system, that can coexist with a more classic "multiclass system", and adds a lot. Nice work.
I know this is way late, and things might have changed in the later versions of this. AND I want to say that I wholly hope your campaign not only is a great success but is one that allows you to further make things lime modules and adventures for others to take part in. Now... that is out of the way. "I know what you're saying. 'This is broken, this is busted'" No... I wasn't going to say that. I was going to say, "This isn't multiclassing". Because it isn't. And, that's okay. Honestly, it is hard to work actual multiclassing into a system and have it work, unless you basically make everyone multiclass. This is Main class with highlights. It allows some fun flavor and changes to everyone's class, sure, and true. But it isn't multiclassing. I enjoy building a character who isn't solely one thing. Be it one class, or one job. This system... does not allow that at all. It feels like the system for 5e's normal classes without multiclassing, but instead of the levels they'd be forced to pick a subclass (which I disliked as it was almost a joke of Pathfinder's archetypes) you CAN pick something from another class. One thing... unless you pick something outside your bubble. Martial into magical, or the other way around. Honestly, for the elements of making your own class even better by picking elements of another subclass? Awesome~! That I feel is fantastic! But... after that, you're more or less just picking up a hat the other class once wore and putting on with a grin. It is highly balanced, just... a bit too streamlined for me. That said, again, that isn't a bad thing. It makes it a LOT easier to balance and keep things in each class feeling powerful without breaking anything. And you're not forcing anyone to pick a selection of classes! Which is great... unless you WANT to be multiple classes, then this... well stops you dead. As a DM? This is great, and bad, at the same time. While it'll be so easy to tell players how this system works. Any answer I'd have for their wishes to not just dabble but actually do magic fully while having a strong sense of martial prowess... would be, well you can... sort of. So then, any character I'd build for them to face couldn't do that, more so I don't have the players questioning why they can't. I get it, as the DM, the world is mine... but it isn't. The players are the world, as they move through it and interact with it. No amount of building on my end, system I use, or stats I throw will ever change the fact that the players are needed to make the world actually survive. Because without them, I'd be in a room alone. That's not D&D, nor DC20. NOW that I've said allll that. No system is perfect, and I fully am aware of that. There are a LOT of other parts of DC20 that really call to me. Like I hinted at before, I disliked 5e a lot for a lot of things, one of the big ones was the joke version of Archetypes pathfinder uses. The ability to swap out base things in your class, and stack multiple archetypes so long as the things they swapped out didn't overlap? That was a grand way to make sure you didn't have a party of 5 fighters you've seen done 100 times. DC20's answer? Well, you 100% won't see 5 fighters in one party who are even closely alike, and for that huge props for you. But... if they all pick to be fighters, then... no matter how they build those fighters, that is what they are, fighters.
This seems like a really game attempt to make class-and-level-based systems a little less broken and constraining. Solid work. But as someone who likes to roleplay, I gotta say points-and-skills-based systems (e.g. GURPS) are just fundamentally better. Multi-classing and subclasses and talents and feats and whatever are all these really creative ways to try to fit more stuff into the shoebox of character classes, and here we have an impressive approach to shoehorning all that stuff in without breaking the box too bad. But you can skip all that by just not roleplaying in a shoebox.
This system of multiclassing has a lot in common with Pathfinder 2e. The are some interesting differences but at the core it is very similar to P2e's Archetypes system.
People get to overly invested that if you multiclass you will not be as strong . Correction you wont have higher level spells but the combos you get are better . My favorite was a lw 6 eloquence bad/ lw 7-14 fire genie warlock. Start with lw1 bard - then lw7 warlock - then lw6 bard - then rest warlock ---(Face/Infiltration)--- Have actor feat + mask of many faces + misty visions to be high class illusionist and manipulator + eloquence bard + expertise in Deception and perception ( Rank S) ---(Scouting )--- Pact of the chain imp to scout situation + high perception from expertise (Rank A) ---(Utility)---Even you your skills are not in History or arcane or religion you do have useful skills (Comp Languages, Detect magic, Identify) And jack of all trades for a little boost (Rank B) ---(Dps)--- Fireball for low lw crowds(Slots from bard and Warlock) + Concentrated damage from Eldritch blast and summon aberration while flying (Rank A) ---(Control)--- Class has good combo ,Unsettling Words + Silvery barbs + Hold person/ Raulothim's Psychic Lance to almost guarantee a success on a boss. (Rank A) ---(Survivability)--- You are not a tank but you do have Armor of agahtis + fly from genie + Misty step to avoid damage (Rank B) ---(Support)--- Class does not have good support but you can give healing potions if if party has goodbeRry to imp for easy heals for dropped players and bardic inspiration (Rank C)
What if I only took meta magic from sorcerer? Would I need to first take sorcerer points to make use of meta magic? Could I take sorcerer points again to gain more sorcerer points?
I'll be honest, I find the multiclassing from martial to caster, and vice versa, cumbersome. It would all fit so much better if both used stamina has their resource.
This system seems, outside looking in, to be in favor of the current sorcerer/martial combo. I commented about multiclassing in a different video. Watching this I think I have been satisfied. 😂 Late to the party, love what I’m seeing.
What would you say to a dm giving out legacy points as rewards/boons for their players for the tables that enjoy a more power fantasy style experience? Is that something you'd recommend or would you advise something else in your system? For comparison at my table currently playing 5e myself and the other 2 dms play a lvl 30 system for our longform campaigns that encourage players to multiclass since classes cap at 20th but they can grab 30 levels total.
Very excited about DC20, the “multiclassing” approach is the only thing that i really dislike. If you start barbarian you’re a barbarian forever. I think this takes away the story opportunity that comes with real multiclassing. I want to be a fighter who joined the army until, in a moment of desperation my sorcerer blood shone through and I discovered I had arcane powers. I realize that physical soldiering isn’t my destiny. I stop pursuing arms training and find a hermit in the woods to help me cultivate my arcane gift. I don’t want to have to be a fighter forever. People aren’t really always like that. People have different careers in real life.
These lets people have RP opportunity and the optimizer/power gamer do what they want. I would also make the PC find someone to teach them that class feature. They don't just spontaneously learn it, they have to be taught.
I get what you've done here and, while I like it, I feel it falls short of what dip style multiclassing allowed. Certainly what you've developed is great for addressing a common playstyle complaint: "I want 1 or 2 specific features from this specific other class and nothing else". However, this comes at the cost of forcing players to be locked into their starting class forever, unlike dip style which allows a player to focus evenly on two or more classes or completely change their main class.
Wouldn't this just mean that people would just constantly pick up the same stuff on every barbarian. Like every barbarian gets adaptive tactics, then action surge with their other talent or whatever
That class multiclass system would also work for the technology questions: guns, gadgets and alchemy. Magic, martial and artisan should work. With arcane materials being the equivalent of mana & stamina. The technology and guns problem is best dealt with early in the design phase. In the real world guns are a quick kill but so's an arrow at close range. I should have a look at the alpha.
I'm going to guess that spellcasters multiclassing to spellcasters don't use these tables, and you only partake if you're crossing the martial / caster divide
You know, a lot of talented game designers work on 5e, not just corporate devils. I believe in your game, but could you use kinder words than "dumb" to describe their work?
How does multiclassing with the spellblade work? If I'm a spellblade and I use my talents to dip into wizard or fighter, do I get the respective spellcaster/martial "starter kit?" What about if I'm a pure martial or pure caster and I dip over into spellblade, would I also gain access to whichever resource my main class lacks?
Taking something from this class and something from that class is the very best part of the game. I guess I’m lame. I will say this I do not feel like single classing is lame. Let me reiterate, the way you feel about multi classing is not lame, and the way I feel about multi classing is not lame. Now, the way you feel about multi classing is your view is good, and the way I feel about it is lame. Am I correct? I see your point of view about about multi classing, and it is cool. My view about multi classing is lame.
Hi, I may want to buy the alpha, but if I may ask to someone who already has it, how many spells are in there in order to be able to test? And in case I want to try and make a Oneshot at a higher level, is there higher level spells?
Subclass at level 3 is stupid, because every player has plans for their PC from the start, thats why most 5e DMs start a campaign at level 3. Paizo noticed that and that's why PF2e gives subclasses at 1st level.
We give out Subclasses at 3rd level for 2 reasons: 1) It reduces the amount of choices a new player has to make at 1st level, considering they already have to pick a Class, their Ancestry (and Ancestry Traits), their Skills, their Attributes, and their Starting Equipment. At 2nd level, you get more stuff and your first Talent (you get to learn how that works). Then you choose a Subclass at 3rd level. 2) In DC20, each Class gets their entire Feature Kit at 1st level, along with enough HP that a single Attack won't kill you (Combat has huge emphasis on balance as well). We've changed how early Class design works so that players and GMs won't feel like they *have to* start at 3rd level. At 3rd level, you are so rich with features, that you *feel* like a 6th or 7th level 5e character (but with the statistics of a 3rd level). The action starts immediately at 1st level, so you don't feel the need to race to 3rd level.
Counter points, people are smart and greedy. If I want to play a magical knight I want to throw my spells from the start, not wait two level ups. Why not make a pole? Also, it's a game about deadly combat not team sport, the only "balancing" the GM needs is to drop hints how deadly the monsters around are and to give them a chance to escaped if it's an ambush. If the 1st level party ignores the claw and scorch marks in the cave then they might be TPKed by a single breath attack of the dragon.
@@PadanGedowitch it sounds like the Paladin, Warlock, or Spellblade would be the best Class for you. They are hybrid classes, so they start the game with a mix of Martial and Spellcaster features.
The magical knight was an example, not the point. To make it very simple. If playe has a character concept said character concept will in 99.9% build around the unique abilities/ideas of the subclass. The Background will be about why they have said subclass, their equipment will be fitting for the subclass. So why do you think it is fun for players to wait two levels for half of the identity of their PCs to be usable? 5e Players want to start at level 3 not because of the power, but because that's when their idea becomes reality.
Multiclassing in 5E looks OP to me. Better than going monoclass. RUclips is replete with amazing multiclass builds. 4E had two great ways to do it: dipping one feat at a time to get a skill and different power from the other class, and a hybrid option where you pick mix the two classes. Either way, you get some of the synergy you want, but not so much that you outshine monoclass characters. Another thought is to forgo classes. Gary Gygax is dead and won't mind. Why are you calling feats talents? The subclasses are feat like.
if I understand correctly, this is more a "feat like" thing than a multiclass system, so if I'm praying with a class and I don't like that much of the class, I can't focus my next lvs in other class, I only can "customize" my class with other classes "perks", i'm correct?
Not big on this version of Multi-classing personally. This version means that while I might have SOME aspects of another class, I won't ever be able to have a SIGNIFICANT amount of them. Also not a fan of the fact that you can have some later features of a class, but not have their earlier features at all. When I choose to Multi-class, I want to be getting all the features I'd get from Playing that class, not a little bit here or there. I don't wanna be a Ranger with watered down Monk features, I wanna be a Ranger AND a Monk, ya know.
I like how this feels like you are still growing in your class, but learning tricks from other classes
What a GREAT way to describe it! YES
This 👆 yes!
Always been my gripe with 5e multiclassing, this is a lot cleaner
Like Zuko learning waterbending principles from Iroh in order to better combat powerful fire benders.
@@GlacialScion excellent analogy
"Things can't get broken", he says unaware of the wild shaped barbarian sneaking up on him for a backstab.
Never underestimate a min-maxer's ability to optimize.
This is basically how it works in Pathfinder 2e, though more streamlined / flexible (since dedication feats aren't required). I've liked how PF2 handles the multiclass dedications, so this already feels very appealing.
The only concern is how sometimes it's just a single feature that winds up upsetting the balance, and being able to take that without stalling your progression (like cha-to-atk and dmg for hexblade) reintroduces that problem, but if you're proactive that's something you can at least design around (and, an example of that is how the Prime Attribute rule already avoids this hexblade problem).
Or things that give you more things than others. I think some features will be heavier than others. Also, a good question would be if scalable features count as one or many. Like "at lv 5 you gain X, and at lv7 you gain Y thing". For example, in PF1e, the ranger's combat feats mention you get 1 feat at lv 2,6,and 10. In Pathfinder 2e, the Dedication feats do break this a bit. A good example are spells. for one dedication feat, you gain spells from lv 1,2,3, for another feat you get lv 4,5,6. Essentially, how the game will break features will be interesting.
I think there's a similarity in the "dedication feats" and DC20 lvl 7 talent grab requirement. At lvl 7 he said that you have to have taken 1 class's talent before getting a lvl 3 talent grab. As a GM I think I'd still prefer the Archetype style of PF2e, as it is organized and balanced. This current system explained in this video seems to favor martials dipping into caster levels, based on how the Mana and Stamina system operates (ie at level 1 you can use your multiclass Mana to upgrade your spells when cast, whereas your techniques will be static until you talent grab again).
It's also similar to 4e's "multiclassing" -- although that was really terrible. I've made up a few of my favorite multi-class concepts in DC20 and they came out much better than 4e's watered-down rules and 3e and 5e's given an an entire level up.
Hexblade shouldn't be an issue in DC 20 as you use your highest stat for attacks and spells anyway. If you have a 3 charisma, you use that for both attacks and spells. Thus, all characters are already hex blades.
Druid -- Forest Knight Archer -- My 3.5e druid took a bunch of archery feats. In DC20, at 2nd, I took a fighter talent, and now I have a druid able to use a bow, heavy armor, and weapon actions with a stamina for the rare special ability at the cost of having slightly less druid abilities. It seems easy, gets the results, and isn't broken.
Cleric/Warlock -- My 5e concept. It was pretty straight forward, you use your highest mental ability for both spell casting, and you beef up some cleric abilities in return for a slightly higher level warlock ability. Easy, balanced, and it gives the same flavor.
So far, I like this. Unlike previous D&D (other than 4e), you aren't costing levels, just some higher level abilities, and you aren't grabbing everything from the class... yet you (unlike 4e) actually feel like an X/Y. Another big advantage is there isn't any 'bad' combinations. In 5e, some classes worked terribly together, some classes paid such a penalty for multiclassing no one did and many were forced together based on attributes. DC20 does a good job to removing these limits.
I also like how your multiclass talents allow a character to stay with a single class but get features from multiple subclasses!
You can have 5 complete subclasses at 20th level!
This is basically learning feats but without having to create feats.
And you've created a bridge for martial and spellcaster classes to be able to multiclass with each other. Very beautiful, well done!
Interesting. Certainly better thought out than 5e's barely functional multiclassing system. It does feel like despite his assurances that multiclassing is being considered when designing class features that there are going to be busted builds based on cherry picking key abilities.
They could already do that in DND lol.
@@tumblecheck Only with Hexblade Paladin, pretty much every other martial caster multiclass is for memes.
A barbarian with ranger talents would fit so well for a wilderness character.
The Wild mountain man
Wow, that has quite nice RP potential... Like Sorcerer NPC could show Wizard PC some trick and Wizard managed to recreate it with his arcane knowledge to some extent. Wizard is still a Wizard, but with just a little additional perk which makes them different and it does not slow spell progresion like in 5e.
I think the big RP opportunity is that the Wizard is learning from the Sorcerer.
I love seeing 4e features being brought back in OGL systems. WoTC was so desperate to undo 4e they threw out many great features.
Yet, 4e "multiclassing" was terrible. It was so weak, it wasn't worth it. It seemed more like checking a box to say they had it vs. an actual system. Then again, its hard to see what did and didn't work when the entire system didn't work. I don't blame WotC for dropping nearly everything as they basically lost their market share due to 4e and had 5e failed they would probably be bankrupt/sold off. When something is that broken, far better to go back to ground zero than risk the company on things which you aren't 100% sure are the problem.
Yes, this appears to fix some of the issues -- getting everything, limiting your progression, broken/useless combos, etc. The key would be if those class features as (by themselves) significant enough to be more than window dressing or if there is a serious power issue with taking lower level other class abilities vs. higher-level traits.
@@BW022 from a game balance perspective it was a great system.
Many of my players multiclassed for flavor or to pick up something the group lacked.
A backup heater was very popular. But adding some minion killing AOE was an option that grew in popularity as levels rose.
4e was a great game system but lacked the style and flavor of the other systems.
One D&D / 2024 originally looked like another 4e waiting to happen. Now it looks more like 3.5. Basically the same as the prior edition but just different enough that PC options aren't compatible which will drive sales.
@@BW022 there were multiple versions of multiclassing in 4e, and I'd say this is roughly as week as the basic one because your second class is barely giving you anything.
@@graveyardshift2100 Like 4e, I'd have to play test this or see it run before deciding. I've make a few DC20 characters up to see what the multiclass looks like, and I wouldn't say it barely gives you anything. Going from a caster to martial gives you stamina, weapon and armor profs, and your talent. Since your primary attack is based on your highest ability, that seems like more than 4e. However, I'd need to see it played. I merely gave the concern.
Looking forward to DC20 coach. I can’t wait to see my players customize their characters how they truly want with more freedom and not restricted to how multi-class in DnD works.
Speak for yourself. Just looking at this, I find this style more stifling than 5e's multiclassing. How's it "more freedom" to be locked into one class, only able to take small features from other classes at the expect of your main one?
This is a really strong, robust system. My only worry is that the term "multiclassong" sets expectations in a way that may not be met by DC20.
If you call it something else and then reference it as "our spin on multiclassing," that might make it less jarring to see how (justifiably) restrictive it is.
That's just my two cents. If other players' feedback is good, roll with it.
Great point, never thought of someone having that view, noted 👍🏼👍🏼
Talent scouting maybe? xD wondering why first talent is not at level 1 to fit the later level pattern and have it frontloaded as part of the PC backstory
I love to watching this grow and develop over the past year. I'm super excited for the Kickstarter! The multi-classing concept of this is just mind-blowing with how many unique characters you can make. 😊
Each of your videos on DC20, including this one, seems to have the same excellent theme: a fantasy RPG system with rules that make sense because you've let go of D&D's baggage (or maybe some would say traditions). Really looking forward to the release of your game!
I would add keeping the similarity as well is super useful. I'm loving watching it progress
What a smart and simple system. Thanks DC!
YOu have fantastic ideas when it comes to player options and character designs. What are your plans for monster design and encounter building?
If you like what we have for this, youll love monsters +++ So more will come on that in the future! Wish I could say more now!
@@TheDungeonCoach certainly looking forward to that. If the monsters are even half as amazing as the player options i am so on board for this game haha
Must...
Have...
Alpha 0.6...
Loving what you have created so far - the wait and anticipation for the next release it "beyond brutal"
MULTI-SUBCLASSING! YES!!! FINALLY!!! This is another way of implementing the free pool of subclass features concept and I'm all for it. With each video I'm liking DC20 even more.
Master level system design, awesomeness
So, Coach.
One thing. Mystic Theurge.
Cleric - Mage (sorcerer/wizard) hybrid. You made this so much easier to handle.
My favorite thing about DC20's development is that Alan makes his goals for the game very known.
This does look better. It's great that the levelling is consistent and you're not grabbing a load of traits resulting in complexity creep and balance issues.
Is there a specific reason why mana and stamina can't be the same avoiding the need of adding entirely different tables just for learning how to hit good?
Mana and stamina function very differently in the system in terms of usage and recovery. I think it would be very difficult to combine them into a single resource system.
@@pearlhoff8888 OK thank you for clarifying
do you think it would not work if martials did use "mana" for all their features too? I guess the balancing using two systems instead, is that mana is more powerful than stamina right? @@pearlhoff8888
I think, and I could VERY easily be wrong, DC did this because he didn't want that strong fighter to take one talent in magic and be able to cast his one leveled spell or make the sigil just as often as a mage who's been doing this all his life.
I kinda feel like instead of ancestry traits they can be placed in Talents for a wider pool and just get more of them since I’m kinda iffy on characters becoming more of whatever those can be, but other than that yessss big fan of the way the dips work without sacrifice.
Also feel mana and stamina could be a shared pool with martials being able to generate mana from their conditional bonuses. Iffy on the tracking.
It’s like the archetype in Pathfinder 2E, but if you immediately got to dip into the “good part” of the investment
This is exactly how I want multiclassing to work. Thank you, Dungeon Coach. Thank you.
have to say i love DnD mulit-classing. I hope DC20 can even come close.
I love this amazing open system of multiclassing in DC20. So many possibilities of builds. 💟 I can't wait to see Eldritch Knight subclass. Great work and great video. Thank you Coach. 👍🏻
sounds like pathfinder 2e system
Same
DC20 takes a lot of inspiration from PF. To the point I feel it should be compared to PF rather than dnd
I've had players multiclassing using .5 rules and it was so easy for them to understand and implement.
Does Cody from D4 know about this?
Yes we are slated to play together some time in the next few months!
Yes , I actually played in a DC20 one shot . there is a RUclips video on it.
Love it, though i fear that there will be 1-2 standout multiclass options that will overshadow everything else.
To use 5e as an example, imagine if you could choose between getting Action Surge and any other feature - AS would always be the easy choice.
Likewise there might be lvl 1 features that are never worth getting, either because another feature in the same class is miles better or because a non-class talent is similar enough plus some.
That could lead to e.g. everyone multiclassing Barbarian to always take the same lvl 1 option - not necessarily a problem but missed potential.
I'm sure you are balancing lvl 1 features around that, but it is definitely an additional challenge for class design.
That being said, so far this looks wayyy better than the D&D system.
Also one last question, are their other ways to get talents (beyond DM rewards/house rules)?
We do a good job of making sure there aren't any stand out features in DC20 to avoid that exact issue. Every feature is pretty well balanced against other features at the same level.
DC20 is SOOOO much better!
i've been waiting for this one, this answers so many questions i had
Something something PF2e (this is more or less how the archetype system in PF2e works, which in turn is essentially how D&D4e's feat based multiclassing worked). One thing that you might want to consider is to take a little more from PF2e by essentially making a talent kit for each class with it's own limited list of features, that way you can include a few more features that are "out there" and wacky without having to worry about "what will happen when this super specific bard feat mixes with this super specific wizard one".
this system is so dam good. I really want to create a multiclasse of a martial class with some magic tricks
This sounds really really awesome - very Dragon Age vibe! And I love the ability to multi class into anything, even the SAME class 😄
Might be only a question of time until the "Free Archetype" rule gets adapted here 😁
I like how this is basically archetypes without the dedication.
You mention the Paladins near the end there. And that got me thinking, can you play as not a holy/unholy Paladin? Since I assume being holy means their tied to religion or a deity. One of the things I liked about them in D&D is that Paladins don't have to and that they get their powers solely from their oaths, their convictions.
Their power comes from their convictions, so they don't need to be religious. The Holy / Unholy themes their damage and abilities. It's really a distinction of good or evil.
That's a really elegant way of handling multiclassing, bravo! I love your game design logic and I've implemented so many of your ideas in my games. Can't wait for DC20!
It can always be worse, for everyone who remembers the old concept of prestige classes. ^^
in Dnd third Edition, the fighter was the ultimate multiclass dip. because it got all EVERYTHING in the first 4 levels, and only feats from then on. similarly, paladin got ridiculous number of powerful abilities in 3 levels. so we Saw basically fighter4/paladin16, Paladin3/Sorceror17... and you basically tried to optimize the most broken combo.
i would really like to see the differnece between a mage that took only mele talents and a fighter that takes only magic talents
Really excited to see the Paladin and Cleric mechanics and lore! Always want to play a light for the commonfolk against the darkness.
I really like this, although I do worry that it'll be difficult for other talents to keep up with those multiclass starter packs between a martial and a caster. If I was choosing between getting just a feature and getting both a feature and the starter pack, it seems like it would always be optimal to get the starter pack
My thoughts exactly
This video makes the skill monkey in me very happy
So excited for this system!!! Excellent work, can’t wait to run it
I would have pushed the like button twice if I could
May I ask, what if a Martial takes talents from two different Casters? Say a Fighter takes a talent from Wizard and a talent from Warlock. What happens with their spell points and which ability modifiers do they use for casting?
Easiest answer would be "use highest of the two stats to calculate starting mana points" but we'll see
Your base Mana is almost equal to your highest Mental Attribute (Charisma or Intelligence). If one ever gets higher than the other, your base MP increases with it.
All Attacks in the game work off your Prime Modifier, which is equal to your highest Attribute. A Warlock and a Wizard can each can Spells just as good as each other, since they both use your Prime Modifier for Spell Checks and Attacks.
In psthfinder 2 they have multiclass feats, which is kinda this. Now, the multi class feats are not taken from the real class feats, but from a particular multiclass table for each class you want to take a feat from. This also goes for archetypes. It allows a lot of customization but with a lot of tables that you need to compare. Here, there are not extra tables, as everything comes from the original table from that class.
I appreciate the narrative side of D&D subclasses being at different levels, but it does immediately cause problems with multiclassing.
love the video man but you mentioned talking about classes like warlock who should get subclasses at level one at the end...and then didnt :')
this game needs to get more popular
Interesting take. Pathfinder does this as well, where you use your class feats to select special "multiclassing" feats that gives you some benefits of that class. The first feat you take from that class gives you a bag of dumbed down level 1 features from that class and unlocks picking more feats later.
It works, but it feels a bit restrictive. Whenever I'm making a build in PF2E, I feel like the multiclassing feats are very mild and it's very difficult to significantly alter how my class plays. It often feels like it's just flavouring that barely affects gameplay. It's no wonder that most tables use the free archetype talent rule, otherwise characters going for multiclassing options can feel barren.
There's a balance between sacrificing your main class progression and how much you gain from it. In 5e you stop your class progression completely, but gain all the benefits of the levels in that second class. In PF2e you sacrifice only a class feat, and get some mild benefits to flavor your class. While the 5e approach has it's problems with 1 level dips, the system feels significantly less restrictive into how you mold your gameplay.
I like that in this version you get to pick one full feature from the class, and now a dumbed down version of a bag of features like in PF2E, and also that you can get subclass features (something lacking in PF2E), I think this will give you more freedom to build the character you want, but it may also become an issue to balance. In pathfinder you need to spend 2 feats to get the better features of a class, but here that only happens for subclass features. Players will naturally gravitate towards the best features.
Reminds me of 4e. Love it!
I'd like to correct you. It's not "multiclassing in D&D", it's "multiclassing in 5e"
And also, my brother in Christ, you invented feats
Regarding a spellcaster with a martial talent, they also get the feature go regain stamina points from the martial classe or only gain that stamina points and when they are gone, they are gone? (already know the system from the streams but i must say it still great to hear another time your explanation). bought the alpha and can't wait to the kickstarter! (keep international shipping as low as possible, please 😁)
They don't gain the Martial Class's Stamina Recovery feature (unless that's the feature they selected). All Classes can regain Stamina in Combat by spending 2 AP to do so. That's the generic recovery method.
Soo DC20 also dosnt have multiclassing it just has characters growing more in erias that make sense for them not limeted by class I love this ❤
Hi, Coach! How can I send a feedback about the system? I played last weekend the first session of a DC20's campaign with my friends (yes, we will try to play more games in sequence, not only one shots)
But what if I want to be broken......
Hahaha, im so so sorry :P
If subclasses come at level 3, then it means most of 1st and 2nd level characters are going to be quite similar. I can understand you don't want to have different levels for each class, but why not start at 1st level, specially if you claim to have solved the problem of the multiplayer dips? Just think about this: why would you want a party of 4 barbarians to wait until level 4 to be completely different?
Subclasses are not progression on a class, but class specialization. A samurai starts as a ronin, not as a fighter who later becomes a samurai.
If you look at the choice that each DC20 class gets at level 1 and 2 (including a multiclassing talent) then All of the classes will feel very different at levels 1 and 2. Much less how open and customized you can play your character with the 4 action points
This is amazing! I’m really loving your progress on this game. Here’s an idea: What if you ditch the concept of characters _being_ a marshal or spellcaster, and just have all characters accumulate mana/spells and stamina/maneuvers based on how many “marshal talents” or spellcasting talents” they have.
DC20 seems like it's gonna be such a beautiful game system
Wow thank you for that!!
I'm actually anxious for the Kickstarter! (And the monster pack add-on)
I'm one of the viewers that came here after the Treentmonk video covering DC20
This sounds a lot like 4e multiclassing.
Hey, Coach. I just supported the kickstarter. I'm still skeptical of the game, but I support anybody who puts this much effort into their work. I love the production quality of the stuff I've seen so far! So, to me your talents look like renamed feats. I appreciate that you are going for a more pick-a-little-this, pick-a-little-that for game balance, but I feel like that complexity is gonna spiral out of the ability to be able to play-balance it. Out of curiosity, have you played the HERO system? It seems pretty defunct at this point, but it offered the ultimate in flexibility in creating the character that you want while still constraining it to game balance (via build points).
Sorry if this is obvious or if someone else asked this.
With multiclassing being so cool in DC20 why would someone choose to not multi class , what would make someone just want to play a plain (insert class)?
love this! How do you feel about the inevitable large span of player skill that a system thats as open as this would produce? I could see this allowing a lot of different very cool builds (maybe something like the cheese grinder build in DnD) being able to pick specific stuff to really maximize your efficiency during combat is both cool and could be a small issue for some tables. (its easy to see a newer player picking several things that need stamina for instance and not really understand how to gain it or other issues)
I love it, but I also have knowledge about almost all subclasses in DnD, some of my players struggle with knowing their one subclass. Im afraid that this system will be daunting. (this could be fixed with a hard focus on onboarding, getting starter character sheets for all classes at multiple levels and stuff)
At one of my training sessions I had for my players so they could learn the game, this was at level two, one of my players was a warlord and used his talent to get martial expansion. At first I thought it was an odd choice, since martials have access to martial features, and that spellcasters would really benefit from the access.
One thing I overlooked was that martial expansion not only give you access to maneuvers and weapon & armor mastery but gives you 2 extra techniques and 1 more stamina. So his Warlord had 3 techniques and 3 stamina compared to 1 technique and 2 stamina.
Which means he had a mean whirlwind with enhancements.
I'm excited to see where builds in this game go.
Oh man. This was sounding anemic and not fun at all until the "booster pack" default care package if class abilities granted for multiclassing. That base package of core stuff flipped me 180. This sounds awesome.
wont this make the most "optimal" thing to theoretically be being a caster/martial and taking a martial/caster talent at every possible time?
I was expecting something else, is a cool "mixclass system", but is not really a "multiclass system". Maybe you can alter the name to try to set de expectations more right. But is a really cool system, that can coexist with a more classic "multiclass system", and adds a lot. Nice work.
Crazy, cool, I like it
THis just sounds like pathfinder with dungeon world
I know this is way late, and things might have changed in the later versions of this. AND I want to say that I wholly hope your campaign not only is a great success but is one that allows you to further make things lime modules and adventures for others to take part in.
Now... that is out of the way. "I know what you're saying. 'This is broken, this is busted'" No... I wasn't going to say that. I was going to say, "This isn't multiclassing". Because it isn't. And, that's okay. Honestly, it is hard to work actual multiclassing into a system and have it work, unless you basically make everyone multiclass. This is Main class with highlights.
It allows some fun flavor and changes to everyone's class, sure, and true. But it isn't multiclassing. I enjoy building a character who isn't solely one thing. Be it one class, or one job. This system... does not allow that at all.
It feels like the system for 5e's normal classes without multiclassing, but instead of the levels they'd be forced to pick a subclass (which I disliked as it was almost a joke of Pathfinder's archetypes) you CAN pick something from another class. One thing... unless you pick something outside your bubble. Martial into magical, or the other way around.
Honestly, for the elements of making your own class even better by picking elements of another subclass? Awesome~! That I feel is fantastic! But... after that, you're more or less just picking up a hat the other class once wore and putting on with a grin.
It is highly balanced, just... a bit too streamlined for me. That said, again, that isn't a bad thing. It makes it a LOT easier to balance and keep things in each class feeling powerful without breaking anything. And you're not forcing anyone to pick a selection of classes! Which is great... unless you WANT to be multiple classes, then this... well stops you dead.
As a DM? This is great, and bad, at the same time. While it'll be so easy to tell players how this system works. Any answer I'd have for their wishes to not just dabble but actually do magic fully while having a strong sense of martial prowess... would be, well you can... sort of. So then, any character I'd build for them to face couldn't do that, more so I don't have the players questioning why they can't.
I get it, as the DM, the world is mine... but it isn't. The players are the world, as they move through it and interact with it. No amount of building on my end, system I use, or stats I throw will ever change the fact that the players are needed to make the world actually survive. Because without them, I'd be in a room alone. That's not D&D, nor DC20.
NOW that I've said allll that. No system is perfect, and I fully am aware of that. There are a LOT of other parts of DC20 that really call to me.
Like I hinted at before, I disliked 5e a lot for a lot of things, one of the big ones was the joke version of Archetypes pathfinder uses. The ability to swap out base things in your class, and stack multiple archetypes so long as the things they swapped out didn't overlap? That was a grand way to make sure you didn't have a party of 5 fighters you've seen done 100 times.
DC20's answer? Well, you 100% won't see 5 fighters in one party who are even closely alike, and for that huge props for you. But... if they all pick to be fighters, then... no matter how they build those fighters, that is what they are, fighters.
Very well said. Hard agree
This seems like a really game attempt to make class-and-level-based systems a little less broken and constraining. Solid work. But as someone who likes to roleplay, I gotta say points-and-skills-based systems (e.g. GURPS) are just fundamentally better. Multi-classing and subclasses and talents and feats and whatever are all these really creative ways to try to fit more stuff into the shoebox of character classes, and here we have an impressive approach to shoehorning all that stuff in without breaking the box too bad.
But you can skip all that by just not roleplaying in a shoebox.
So be a rogue and take wizard talents and be the arcane trickster...
Or a Fighter to become an Eldritch Knight! Now every Class can have every 1/3rd spellcaster option. Even Arcane, Divine, or Primal versions!
Multi-classing to get all the features of another class sounds a little... Abserd
This system of multiclassing has a lot in common with Pathfinder 2e. The are some interesting differences but at the core it is very similar to P2e's Archetypes system.
So: 4e multiclassing
People get to overly invested that if you multiclass you will not be as strong .
Correction you wont have higher level spells but the combos you get are better .
My favorite was a lw 6 eloquence bad/ lw 7-14 fire genie warlock.
Start with lw1 bard - then lw7 warlock - then lw6 bard - then rest warlock
---(Face/Infiltration)--- Have actor feat + mask of many faces + misty visions to be high class illusionist and manipulator + eloquence bard + expertise in Deception and perception ( Rank S)
---(Scouting )--- Pact of the chain imp to scout situation + high perception from expertise (Rank A)
---(Utility)---Even you your skills are not in History or arcane or religion you do have useful skills (Comp Languages, Detect magic, Identify) And jack of all trades for a little boost (Rank B)
---(Dps)--- Fireball for low lw crowds(Slots from bard and Warlock) + Concentrated damage from Eldritch blast and summon aberration while flying (Rank A)
---(Control)--- Class has good combo ,Unsettling Words + Silvery barbs + Hold person/ Raulothim's Psychic Lance to almost guarantee a success on a boss. (Rank A)
---(Survivability)--- You are not a tank but you do have Armor of agahtis + fly from genie + Misty step to avoid damage (Rank B)
---(Support)--- Class does not have good support but you can give healing potions if if party has goodbeRry to imp for easy heals for dropped players and bardic inspiration (Rank C)
What if I only took meta magic from sorcerer? Would I need to first take sorcerer points to make use of meta magic? Could I take sorcerer points again to gain more sorcerer points?
I multiclass bug/artist.
I'll be honest, I find the multiclassing from martial to caster, and vice versa, cumbersome. It would all fit so much better if both used stamina has their resource.
This system seems, outside looking in, to be in favor of the current sorcerer/martial combo.
I commented about multiclassing in a different video. Watching this I think I have been satisfied. 😂 Late to the party, love what I’m seeing.
Maybe ill allow multiclassing finally in my games with DC20 🎉 love this system
What would you say to a dm giving out legacy points as rewards/boons for their players for the tables that enjoy a more power fantasy style experience? Is that something you'd recommend or would you advise something else in your system?
For comparison at my table currently playing 5e myself and the other 2 dms play a lvl 30 system for our longform campaigns that encourage players to multiclass since classes cap at 20th but they can grab 30 levels total.
Sounds like archetypes in pf2e
Very excited about DC20, the “multiclassing” approach is the only thing that i really dislike. If you start barbarian you’re a barbarian forever. I think this takes away the story opportunity that comes with real multiclassing.
I want to be a fighter who joined the army until, in a moment of desperation my sorcerer blood shone through and I discovered I had arcane powers. I realize that physical soldiering isn’t my destiny. I stop pursuing arms training and find a hermit in the woods to help me cultivate my arcane gift.
I don’t want to have to be a fighter forever. People aren’t really always like that. People have different careers in real life.
These lets people have RP opportunity and the optimizer/power gamer do what they want. I would also make the PC find someone to teach them that class feature. They don't just spontaneously learn it, they have to be taught.
I get what you've done here and, while I like it, I feel it falls short of what dip style multiclassing allowed. Certainly what you've developed is great for addressing a common playstyle complaint: "I want 1 or 2 specific features from this specific other class and nothing else". However, this comes at the cost of forcing players to be locked into their starting class forever, unlike dip style which allows a player to focus evenly on two or more classes or completely change their main class.
Wouldn't this just mean that people would just constantly pick up the same stuff on every barbarian. Like every barbarian gets adaptive tactics, then action surge with their other talent or whatever
That class multiclass system would also work for the technology questions: guns, gadgets and alchemy. Magic, martial and artisan should work. With arcane materials being the equivalent of mana & stamina. The technology and guns problem is best dealt with early in the design phase. In the real world guns are a quick kill but so's an arrow at close range. I should have a look at the alpha.
I'm going to guess that spellcasters multiclassing to spellcasters don't use these tables, and you only partake if you're crossing the martial / caster divide
Now I want a rogue who can wildshape. :D
You know, a lot of talented game designers work on 5e, not just corporate devils.
I believe in your game, but could you use kinder words than "dumb" to describe their work?
How does multiclassing with the spellblade work? If I'm a spellblade and I use my talents to dip into wizard or fighter, do I get the respective spellcaster/martial "starter kit?" What about if I'm a pure martial or pure caster and I dip over into spellblade, would I also gain access to whichever resource my main class lacks?
Taking something from this class and something from that class is the very best part of the game. I guess I’m lame. I will say this I do not feel like single classing is lame. Let me reiterate, the way you feel about multi classing is not lame, and the way I feel about multi classing is not lame. Now, the way you feel about multi classing is your view is good, and the way I feel about it is lame. Am I correct? I see your point of view about about multi classing, and it is cool. My view about multi classing is lame.
Hi, I may want to buy the alpha, but if I may ask to someone who already has it, how many spells are in there in order to be able to test?
And in case I want to try and make a Oneshot at a higher level, is there higher level spells?
Subclass at level 3 is stupid, because every player has plans for their PC from the start, thats why most 5e DMs start a campaign at level 3. Paizo noticed that and that's why PF2e gives subclasses at 1st level.
We give out Subclasses at 3rd level for 2 reasons:
1) It reduces the amount of choices a new player has to make at 1st level, considering they already have to pick a Class, their Ancestry (and Ancestry Traits), their Skills, their Attributes, and their Starting Equipment. At 2nd level, you get more stuff and your first Talent (you get to learn how that works). Then you choose a Subclass at 3rd level.
2) In DC20, each Class gets their entire Feature Kit at 1st level, along with enough HP that a single Attack won't kill you (Combat has huge emphasis on balance as well). We've changed how early Class design works so that players and GMs won't feel like they *have to* start at 3rd level.
At 3rd level, you are so rich with features, that you *feel* like a 6th or 7th level 5e character (but with the statistics of a 3rd level). The action starts immediately at 1st level, so you don't feel the need to race to 3rd level.
Counter points, people are smart and greedy. If I want to play a magical knight I want to throw my spells from the start, not wait two level ups. Why not make a pole?
Also, it's a game about deadly combat not team sport, the only "balancing" the GM needs is to drop hints how deadly the monsters around are and to give them a chance to escaped if it's an ambush. If the 1st level party ignores the claw and scorch marks in the cave then they might be TPKed by a single breath attack of the dragon.
@@PadanGedowitch it sounds like the Paladin, Warlock, or Spellblade would be the best Class for you. They are hybrid classes, so they start the game with a mix of Martial and Spellcaster features.
The magical knight was an example, not the point.
To make it very simple. If playe has a character concept said character concept will in 99.9% build around the unique abilities/ideas of the subclass. The Background will be about why they have said subclass, their equipment will be fitting for the subclass. So why do you think it is fun for players to wait two levels for half of the identity of their PCs to be usable? 5e Players want to start at level 3 not because of the power, but because that's when their idea becomes reality.
Monk rogue or barbarian rogue? Trying to be a brutal warrior inspired by Thorfinn in Vinland Saga.
Int based martial w bard like inspiration = Battle field Marshal!!!! OMG!!!!
Multiclassing in 5E looks OP to me. Better than going monoclass. RUclips is replete with amazing multiclass builds.
4E had two great ways to do it: dipping one feat at a time to get a skill and different power from the other class, and a hybrid option where you pick mix the two classes.
Either way, you get some of the synergy you want, but not so much that you outshine monoclass characters.
Another thought is to forgo classes. Gary Gygax is dead and won't mind.
Why are you calling feats talents?
The subclasses are feat like.
if I understand correctly, this is more a "feat like" thing than a multiclass system, so if I'm praying with a class and I don't like that much of the class, I can't focus my next lvs in other class, I only can "customize" my class with other classes "perks", i'm correct?
Not big on this version of Multi-classing personally. This version means that while I might have SOME aspects of another class, I won't ever be able to have a SIGNIFICANT amount of them. Also not a fan of the fact that you can have some later features of a class, but not have their earlier features at all.
When I choose to Multi-class, I want to be getting all the features I'd get from Playing that class, not a little bit here or there.
I don't wanna be a Ranger with watered down Monk features, I wanna be a Ranger AND a Monk, ya know.