Autistic Girls Are We Gender Stereotyping Autism?
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Autistic girls, are we gender stereotyping autism? There's an issue around identifying, diagnosing and supporting autistic women and girls. But the answer to this issue appears to be labelling a particular presentation of autism as 'girl autism' with associated lists of girl autism symptoms being shared online.
I feel that this way of tackling the issue excludes anyone who doesn't identify as female but who's autism presents in this way. So I made this video as part of a collaboration with fellow autistic RUclipsr Yo Samdy Sam to talk about my concerns.
Yo Samdy Sam’s video on the topic • Autism in girls - I wa...
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A little bit about me:
Hi I'm Purple Ella and my family is an autism family with three out of five of us on the autistic spectrum. I also have ADHD and connective tissue disorder (hypermobile Ehlers-danlos syndrome). So life can be a challenge but also a lot of fun.
Go check out Yo Samdy Sam’s video on the topic from her perspective ruclips.net/video/YAhQJ08bzgs/видео.html
I just been diagnosed with autism at the age of 27 after years of struggling at school and started work and still struggling but trying mask and it got worst and I spent time in mental health hospital and so long I been thinking something wrong with me but now I have my diagnosis I question if it’s correct I mean I struggle all time but I have people tell me all time I don’t show autism but I know I definitely struggling but don’t know if my autism diagnosis is correct I just think there something wrong with me
I saw Sam’s post first and I’m so glad you’ve done this too. Thank you!
In another vein, I hope you’re feeling better soon. I’m recovering from my latest meltdown and ASD burnout atm so I can empathize - self care is a lesson I’m still learning and it helps to see people like you engaging in it.
@@nerdipedia1142 hello 👋
I loved being able to watch both of you talk about the same thing from slightly different angles. I'd be into collabs like this anytime it's handy!
There are actually three types of empathy: affective/emotional (feeling someone else’s emotions), cognitive/Theory of Mind (picking up the cues of how someone else is feeling, knowing the thoughts they might have, predicting their intentions), and compassionate (knowing what to say to make a situation better). It’s said that neurotypicals tend to have lower affective empathy and higher cognitive empathy, and often, autistic people have it the other way round, but no one says neurotypicals have low empathy because they don’t have as much affective empathy. Food for thought.
🤯
Yes! Someone told me, "I think your son has no empathy so you should get him checked for autism!" and I was like, "Yeah, right, who's the first kid to cry with us parents if we get a bit too upset?!" I hope they revised that in the DSM because as an undiagnosed autistic mom, it fires me up a bit.
your explanation is so short and precise, why do I have to write whole novels to convey this???
I really identify with this, not sure if I have autism. I really appreciated the info about different types of empathy. I strongly feel other peoples emotions but often don't understand their intentions and certainly don't know what to say to make someone feel better
@@CristalianaIvor i’m p😊oo😅oo
Holy cow, that shy, quiet girl who loved to read and has only one friend and sits in her room surrounded by her pets: literally me, my entire life up until this day! I’m going to have to do a VR to yours and Sam’s videos.
I am thinking of getting a diagnostic and tried asking my mom how I was as a child and she told me exactly this: “ You can’t be autistic, you make eye contact.”
She has no idea how much stress I get from making eye contact with other people. Usually mostly adults, but sometimes even with my students. I’ve just always forced myself to do it cause I know it’s expected.
That bit in your video hit hard.
as a queer man it was through Sams video about autism in girls that I started to realise I was autistic. I have always identified as more feminine socially so it all finally started to make sense to me.
oh my god thank you so much for this! i’m a trans guy and it can be hurtful to look at autism resources, see something about “autism in girls” and have to accept the fact that they’re probably referring to anyone assigned female at birth and that i’m included in the “girl” category!!
✌ Here with you, my friend.
Yes. I can't even look at my diagnosis paperwork because gendered language is used so heavily and follow up recommendations are all gender-based (such as the recommended reading list) and I feel like it doesn't apply to me. It's weird to be so seen (in regards to my autistic traits) and so ignored (with regards to my gender) at the same time.
I'm nonbinary and transmasculine but I still found it helpful to point my family to "autism in girls" information after I got my diagnosis. The idea is helpful because it opens up peoples' minds to the idea that autism doesn't just present in one typical way, but it's important to emphasize that these traits are not confined by gender. I guess, rather than saying, "here's how autism looks in girls" it should be "here are other ways autism can present."
I am a female with autism, but I do know more males with autism through my job. Interestingly many boys I support do have many of the presentations of "female" autism. I have interesting discussions with them about this and they dislike the gender differences, as to them it does not make sense to distinguish between genders when thinking about autism.
You are quite right, there shouldn't be a need to distinguish between genders and that every autistic person is a unique individual, regardless of their gender.
what is your job if you don't mind me asking?
@@michaelwerner7032 I'm a self-employed personal assistant 👍🙂
I'm autistic and enby and the autism that girls typically experience describes me perfectly. I don't like calling it 'girl autism' or 'female autism' or whatnot. My dad's autism presents similarly to mine and shockingly he's not a girl.
I do think it's important to research how the gender roles someone was expected to fill affects how their autism presents, so I understand the need to describe the way autism typically presents in girls separately. I think we just need to come up with a different term for it that isn't inherently linked to femaleness, like 'masking autism' versus 'nonmasking autism.' Something like that. And then we can say that autism in girls tends to be the masking autism type, while boys fit the nonmasking type more often.
@@beepbopboop3221 Well I'd be offended if someone said I 'outgrew' my autism, because that's not how autism works. So I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree.
My autism is mostly invisible to others, which is how I got to 26 until I got a diagnosis. It's not in any way subtle for me though. It's flipping killer. I feel like 'subtle autism' suggests that there is no problem, while really I'm just hiding it from others, and dealing with the fallout myself, causing my own mental health great stress. Calling it subtle discourages other people from taking it seriously, and makes them less likely to be willing to adapt to you. I think the term is counterproductive.
I didn't know I was masking until I was 24. Doesn't mean it didn't have a major impact on my mental health and my confidence and my ability to connect to others. It was still there.
Now correct me if I'm wrong, but to me it sounds like you think of autism as an inherently bad thing, a thing that makes you unable to cope with life. So if someone who has autism is able to cope with life, you don't want to call it autism anymore. You get offended if someone calls people who are able to cope 'autistic', because you think of that word almost as an insult.
I am offended by that. Autism is a developmental difference, not a deficit. We struggle because we're expected to function like neurotypical people in neurotypical society, but we function differently. We are good at different things.
My autism assessor explained the most current and comprehensive theory on what autism is at its core like this:
Autism is a type of switched/reversed development. Neurotypical people start their development with social-emotional development. That is what they focus on for the first 3-4 years of their life, and during that time, their surroundings encourage and support that. After that, they focus more on cognitive development.
Social emotional development is what is involved in instinctively knowing how to interact with people, without having to think about it.
Cognitive development is what is involved in analytic thinking and pattern recognition.
Autistic people start with cognitive development. They switch to social emotional development later in life (when that happens depends per person, doesn't have to be at 3-4 years of age), but at that point, they are expected to already have gone through that stage and know their shit, so their surroundings no longer encourage that or help them with that. They have to figure it out on their own.
As grown ups, neurotypical people default to the social emotional way of thinking and solving problems, while autistic people continue to default to the cognitive way of thinking. Autistic people never fully catch up on that social emotional development, but we can get close (meaning we can become good at knowing social rules and masking, we just need experience, but we tend to figure it out cognitively still). In the same manner, neurotypical people never catch up to us when it comes to the cognitive way of thinking, but can obviously also get good at that.
Autistic people have many strengths because of this, for example we tend to notice more and different details than neurotypical people, because we don't rely on automatic quick processing as much. Processing does on the other hand cost more energy for us. We don't filter as many 'irrelevant' things out, so it's easy to get overstimulated with too many things to notice.
In short, I'm sorry but the arguments you posted are really very flawed. Please do some more research on what autism actually is before you start posting nonsense like 'some people outgrow their autism.'
@@beepbopboop3221 Oh, okay, I'm sorry I misunderstood then.
This was the sentence I was referring to with the 'ougrowing autism':
"Some, like my daughter, out grow their autism and don't claim it as part of their identity."
Maybe it was some sort of a typo or a different kind of miscommunication? I don't know. Either way, it's good that you don't regularly say that people outgrow their autism.
And yes, of course if your daughter thinks she was misdiagnosed then it's her right not to claim autism as part of her identity. I think she probably wouldn't go for calling it 'subtle autism' either then though.
I understand not liking the phrase 'masking' because you don't want to think of yourself as a liar. I do feel that way sometimes too. Because it's not like you're intentionally trying to deceive people, right? You're just trying to fit in. So yeah I get not liking the phrase because of that. That's fair.
I'm glad I got that part I wrote about you thinking of the word autism as almost a slur wrong. I'm glad you don't have such a negative view of autism. It would suck to have to live with that.
Don't worry about not typing out your comment again. I know the feeling. RUclips tends to delete comments you're working on when you scroll down too far. Personally when I'm writing a long comment I like to press ctrl+A, ctrl+C every once in a while, so at least my browser saves it and I can paste it in again if youtube decides to refresh the page. Would recommend :)
Have a nice day. Sorry for being harsh earlier.
@L G I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at to be honest.
With the brain plasticity thing, are you saying that we shouldn't have terms for masking autism versus nonmasking autism because it can change within a person? I'd disagree with that. The terms are still helpful shorthands for common (though not universal) types of expression of autism.
The clinical criteria were gendered. That's just a fact. Autism was always seen as a 'disorder' more commonly seen in boys, so they only looked for it in boys, and only considered the symptoms that boys commonly exhibited.
Saying the criteria weren't gendered is like saying the diagnostic criteria for a heart attack weren't gendered. Sure, pain in the left arm isn't inherently gendered, but if only men experience that prior to a heart attack, and women don't, and that's why doctors don't accurately diagnose women and save their lives, well that's gendered.
ASD levels are separate from this entire discussion. It refers to how much support someone needs, not to how their autism presents itself. Someone who is good at masking could still have a high support need, and vice versa.
I'm not sure why you're saying that cis and trans women should be able to discuss female autism. Are you saying that I, as an afab nonbinary person, should not be able to discuss it? If so, hard disagree. I think the way autism presents itself differently in different genders is probably heavily linked to how people were socialized and expected to behave (though of course that's not the only factor). It would be a mistake to only look at someone's gender identity and dismiss their socialization as irrelevant.
I'm not sure if I've misinterpreted what you were saying on one or all of these points. Please clarify.
@L G I actually agree with all of what you wrote there. Turns out our disagreement was just miscommunication and nothing else. :)
I had trouble getting diagnosed too, but I think that's partially for different reasons. I'm obviously not very feminine, but I'm still read as female, so that still probably played a role.
My parents always knew something was wrong with me because I was dead exhausted and shut down all the time and I had no grip on interoception, but they thought it was physical rather than mental, so I've been to a bajillion doctors, both legit and alternative, and they all said I was physically fine, so my parents decided I had a pseudo illness (pyroluria) and 'treated' me for that with useless supplements. Case closed.
I knew that it was mental all along, and at age 11 I started suspecting it was aspergers, but well... My mom has a very obviously autistic brother and one of my aunts once said I was a lot like him. My mom got super angry and offended about that, so to me it was clear that I had to get better at hiding it. I just had to try harder to be normal.
10 years later, I told the first therapist I ever had 'I think I have autism because I have all of the symptoms except I can read faces' and she decided that it wasn't worth looking into. The truth is that I have learned to read faces, but I'm still not amazing at it. I still fail at detecting sarcasm when I can't tell from context clues. I thought 'well this therapist probably knows what she's talking about' so I gave up on it.
The second therapist I had actually told me she thought I should look into autism because I could have it, and I was like 'yeah I know that's what I said to the last one.' But she also thought that getting a diagnosis was probably not worth it because I had enough coping strategies. And well yeah I could mask, true, but meanwhile I'd been in therapy for two years for depression and anxiety that was caused by said autism, so I don't think I was coping at all.
I mentioned I thought I had autism to the third therapist too, but she was like 'kay cool but you're here for social anxiety, so that's what I'm treating you for'.
After that I still wasn't doing any better and got referred to another institution, for personality disorders this time (I was possibly going to get a diagnosis for avoidant personality disorder). In the intake I mentioned in a single sentence that I thought I had autism, and f*cking finally they took that seriously and sent me to an autism specialist instead. And that's where I got my diagnosis. My assessor said my autism was obvious and she didn't have any doubts that I had it.
My siblings, a younger brother and a younger sister, have even more obvious autism symptoms than me. My dad does too, and my mom is a master masker that we're not sure about, but she's got a suspicious amount of autistic brothers and nieces and it is largely genetic so... ?
None of my immediate family members ever got assessed for autism. Why? Well 'this is just how we are'. It's our normal. We know we're weird to other families, but is that our problem? If we can't relate to you and you can't relate to us, then it seems we should probably just go find people we can relate to instead of blaming each other for being different.
Until very recently, my parents thought autism was just the very extreme kind of autism + other cognitive disabilities. You know, the kind of person that is severely disabled and can't live by themselves. And of course that exists (and I have a cousin like that), but that's not all there is to autism. Honestly I think that misconception is why I and the rest of my immediate family didn't get considered for diagnosis.
So there's my diagnosis story :)
Lengthy but in the end we got there
Take ADHD as an example. Despite knowing that, generally speaking, more cis females are in the "inattentive" sub-type and more cis males are in the "hyperactive/impulsive" sub-type, we don't call them "female ADHD" and "male ADHD". We acknowledge the difference between the sub-types (and have a combined sub-type, of course) but we don't gender them.
If we need to differentiate between these two presentations of autism, we must - and clearly CAN - do it in a non-gendered way. I've always preferred the idea of an "external presentation", an "internal presentation", and a "combined presentation", but that's just my own way of making sense of it.
spot on!!
Why do you specify "cis"? Do you have any data indicating trans men and women do not follow this pattern?
@@niwa_s To an extent, yes. There is very little data about this, but some studies suggest that transgender men score similarly to cisgender men in various diagnostic tests, whereas transgender women score markedly differently to cisgender women. My personal take from that is the idea that neither assigned sex or gender identity are reliable ways to categorise autism and ADHD. Diagnosis is based on behaviour and observation, and the way children are taught to socialise or act is often very different for boys and girls. The unique life experiences of trans individuals can often mean that they are brought up to socialise or act in ways that are uncomfortable to them, which serves to add another layer to the autistic mask, and another layer of complexity to diagnosis.
I apologise if my comment came across as "othering" the trans community. That was not my intention at all. Rather, I meant that the act of gendering diagnoses is inappropriate because the way we as individuals experience gender is subjective. None of us can or should be split neatly into categories based on cisgender stereotypes, which is what "male autism" and "female autism" are.
(Note: I hope that explains my perspective and intention a bit better. It's taken a whole cutlery drawer of spoons to write this, but I felt it important to reply to you. I'm sorry if it's a bit garbled and nonsensical - I'm trying, but my brain is exhausted!)
@@lizjenkin7170 Thank you for taking the time to reply. Specifying "cis" when there is no apparent relevance is indeed othering, but my aim is less to communicate my personal offense and more to challenge the image of trans people as essentially identical to members of their assigned sex but with an altered name or appearance. It's extremely prevalent, especially in medical and adjacent contexts, and causes a good deal of problems.
Based on the data you describe it seems like the modifier is superfluous at least for men. If you have the time and energy a reference to the studies in question would be great, though I will also look myself (if I don't forget).
By calling gender stereotypes cisgender stereotypes I guess you're describing them on a meta level because that's who society intends to target? Because there's not really much difference in the way trans and cis individuals take on gender roles and stereotypes, we mimic same sex adults and peers just the same. We're just more likely to be discouraged from acting some of those stereotypes out
(anecdotally, my autistic traits were probably a big factor in my resistance to any gender policing). I think there is a tendency to categorise what is essentially the same trait or behaviour in different ways depending on whether the one exhibiting it is considered male or female and this type of confirmation bias is the primary reason for the tendency to both stereotype and under- and misdiagnose some conditions based on sex, and why patterns may seemingly resemble assigned sex in trans demographics.
@@niwa_s Thank you for your detailed and kind reply. I really appreciate your efforts to help me understand where I went wrong.
I definitely don't see trans people as their assigned sex with a different name, and I'm sorry that I gave that impression (to clarify: a trans man is a man, no argument). You're right in saying that this view is prevalent in the medical field, and I think that's what I was trying (and failing) to get across. Gendering diagnoses will inevitably hurt the trans and non-binary communities in particular, not because they ARE different to their gender identity, but because many people in the medical field PERCEIVE them to be different. Studies suggesting that the autistic traits of trans and cis people do not fully align fail to explain WHY they do not align (and with so little data, it's not exactly conclusive either) and this could be misinterpreted when it comes to diagnosing transgender people if we were to use gender as a way to categorise diagnoses. I hope I've explained that in the right way.
I specified "cis" because I did deem it relevant, however I don't think I explained my reasoning very well. You've shown me that I shouldn't have specified "cis", but perhaps should have explained my thought process behind it instead. Being autistic, I sometimes struggle to fully explain what I mean; in reading your responses, I feel that our views are similar, but that you have worded it in a much more effective way. Essentially, I fully agree with you and I am sorry that my phrasing and explanations suggested otherwise. Going forward, I will definitely think more carefully about my phrasing and the relevance of certain terms before including them. Thank you for patiently educating me on that. I won't edit my comments to fix it, as I think that this comment exchange could be valuable to other people, and I really appreciate the thought and effort you have put into it.
Yes - I posted something similar over on Sam's channel. I would say that what's been termed "female autism" is actually "late-discovery autism". Many of us actually learned to mask early on, for many reasons - yes, there's the idea that girls have a very different set of social expectations growing up, but there can be other causes too. For example, in my case, I credit the fact that one of my parents (who is obviously also autistic, but has never really known about it other than "being different") unintentionally coached me on how to blend in and adapt in social situations with helping me learn about NT interactions. There's also the dreaded "boys will be boys" thing, which skirts the issue entirely. As a result, I didn't discover this journey until last year, at the age of 43...part of the problem being that I present almost exactly the same as the "female autism" stereotype, but I didn't watch any of those videos because I figured they wouldn't apply to me - the effect was, by definition, exclusionary.
As for "this video won't make a difference" - I disagree. More and more folk are discovering their autism through RUclips, thanks in part to the weirdly diagnostic behaviour of the RUclips AI. I'd say that, in terms of teens upwards making the initial discovery, autistic content creators are actually _more_ important and useful than medical/psychiatric professionals.
I’m starting to think autism has at least 3 “types” like ADHD does: “quiet”, “loud” and mixed for lack of better words while avoiding gendered labels
Agreed
I can see why you would think that way - but please remember this is still considering it from an outsider's perspective, ie someone watchingthe autistic and/or ADHD person. You can watch someone that is inattentive/"quiet" but it is so loud and messy and active on the inside - it's just that they experience the impact whereas the person observing doesn't.
Personally I've started thinking of traits as internalised, externalised, or a mix of both - if that would be another way for you to think of it. :)
@@emmasharman I definitely like the categories you put forward better, thank you for finding better words that work. I was thinking more about it and wondering how much of the categories have to do with how well one is able to mask, at least from an outside perspective. My partner has been early Dx, with me coming to the realization recently, and we both have moments of “your autism manifests like that??” (as in we experience some things differently) but also we’re both very autistic
INternal/external endothermic/exothermic reactivity quadrants an then masking on top - i argue that those who can mask long term then burn out for prolonged periods, those who can mask to a point and react in a more external manner more often will get a BPD rather than Autism diagnosis
I also think the diagnostic tools need to be updated. If they mixed the "female" traits with the existing "male" traits they could cover everybody without unnecessary divisions.
Since the biggest group currently undiagnosed is designated "female" it is easy to just label it that even though it is not precise. I am female but have some "male" traits and some "female" traits. I have seen males with Autism commenting that they have "female" traits. Also non-binary people would hopefully be more comfortable.
So maybe an awareness that people born with XX chromosomes tend to be under-diagnosed paired with an updated list of traits would be enough to fix the problem.
I hope then the unnecessary divisions between "female" and "male" Autism could be stopped.
@L G Ignore my XX chromosome paragraph if it upsets you.
My main point is that they could add the "female" traits to the "male" traits instead of sperating the traits by gender.
I found myself watching the popular males and not speaking for so long. Once I thought I had figured it out I began stepping out of the “shy” role. I 100% thought everyone did this. I presented like a classic autistic female. Later in my 30’s I couldn’t keep up the masking. I relate to these issues
I like your idea that the whole thing be reframed 100% autistic men in general not just trans.. it seems strange to seperate symptoms by gender since so many of us seem to have unconventional views of gender anyway? I know quite a few men who have been missed and fit more of the "female" autism traits.. who have always consciously made efforts to learn social skills, worry about fitting in, imitate their friends behaviors, try to seem "normal" and end up with burnout later in life, maybe major in psychology, tend more towards inward struggles and shutdowns that they hide rather than meltdowns, maybe have special interests that arent questioned like movies, cars, motorcycles, sports, metal bands, stuff that can be spun as cool or normal... quite a few that pull off masking well enough to miss early diagnosis but not enough to miss jail time 😕
you know, your comment reminded me of my dad. Pretty sure he's autistic+ maybe adhd like me and my grandpa too (tbh all my family on my fathers side).
But they somehow managed to make all their autistic quirks seem charming... like you know? a bit offensive but just on the brink of being too offensive so it somehow comes off as charming???
like litteraly my grandpa is LOVED by an entire industry (italian culinary industrie) in my birth city because he used to repair all of their equipment and he's like a genius with all stuff uhm electronic and mechatronic and stuff (I mean not the new stuff but the old stuff).
I guess it kind of helps that they are white cis men so when they are doing alot of sexist jokes n stuff it's considered socially appropriate? especially in their generation 🤔
don't get me wrong, I love those two bastards to death and they do love me. they still have some unadressed problematic behaviours.
Thanks for bringing this up, it's an important discussion to have.
I'm male and have not been officially diagnosed, but have a strong suspicion that I'm on the spectrum. I would say that I feel like I have a medium masking ability that allows me to ascertain what instances I need to force myself to do uncomfortable things in order to remain within the norm of socially acceptable behavior. And also where I need to push my current social limits in order to prepare myself for future endeavors requiring those skills. Too much thinking overanalyzing and planning probably. At this point I am realizing that this behavior just as much as if there was outright social failure in these situations implicates my having ASD.
Going full circle I've always felt like I've identified with the female gendertype more so than with what is normally thought of as male. It is interesting that this is also the case when it comes to autistic gendertype as well.
And now I've successfully written a novel that really probably just helps confirm that I probably have ASD... And that was just overanalyzing it... Probably confirming it more... And this ending is becoming more and more not within the social norm... Ugg why doesn't it end!...
Ok... By I guess.
Why does everything have to be so gendered?
I had the same experience with ADHD. Went undiagnosed for years because, as a girl, I was socialized out of many of the typical behaviors and became very good at masking. But everyone presents ADHD differently and it seems reductive to always divide presentation of behaviors based on assigned gender.
Thank you...when I try to explain how autism is misunderstood, I'm careful to say "misunderstood in all people, males too, but even more often in females and other genders." But it is SO difficult to get drs to listen at all, they definitely don't get it yet
Your image of an autistic female at 2:13 describes me perfectly. It's through the description of 'female presentation' that I came to understand I am autistic because I just didn't fit into the traits typical in the 'male presentation'. That said, I don't think the gendering of it is helpful, as I am nb. I would prefer a different way to describe the differences because they're definitely there.
I'm a man and I've been fighting this stereotype since I was diagnosed. My Autism refuses to acknowledge gendered stereotyping. I got tired of using gendered resources to help people understand their Autism and created my own I use in Neurodivergent support groups.
Dear Ella:
I think that, as we (humanity) learn more about autism and discover more patterns and details (a wonderful reason to have an autistic woman at home, overthinking and sharing, and a group of aspies from all around the world listening and overthinking along), we will find out more ways to be objective regarding diagnosis, and gender will become less of a deal when diagnosing.
I want to thank you because I'm learning a lot from you, so: Thank you, Ella!
You're touching hearts and minds.
💙
It's interesting to find that some assessment protocols use gender specific categories. My assessment was based purely on DSM-V criteria and generalized tests that are usually used for children. At first I was told that, even though I scored highly on tests, I do not "display" typical (male) autism. It was only later acknowledged that my presentation and masking would normally be associated only with "female autism". Even though majority of misdiagnosed autistic people are women or non-binary, it's clear that the exact opposite can happen, which is why I don't believe in gender specific autism types.
Hello! I was diagnosed with ADHD at 41 and I have an appointment at YAI for the ASD assessment. I’m very anxious. My three children are neurodiverse. My younger ones got complete assessment and diagnosed with ASD. Now my daughter has been diagnosed with ADHD as well. My autistic children make eye contact and so do I. My daughter does it better than my son. But the point is, they both CAN land do it well. Hugs
Had no idea we had these gendered diagnoses- good grief- it's hard enough getting autism diagnosed in females due to stereotypes, thank you for bringing this to light.
You have addressed a complex topic with both confidence and sensitivity: thank you! Personally, I don't relate that much to the "female phenotype" either even though I am a late diagnosed autistic cis woman, but I didn't feel excluded by it. I felt warmed that finally, women were being centred in discussions about autism. Though, as you say, I recognise that it harmfully excludes a lot of people who also need to be centred. I don't take "female phenotype" as a literal description of every autistic woman, but rather a symbolic and gentle reminder to professionals to drop their Einstein/ Rain Man stereotypes; to consider that it may not be "BPD"; to recognise that growing up in the patriarchy means that anyone who isn't a cis, white male in particular will subconsciously alter themselves as a safety precaution (camouflaging). However, I've met neurotypicals who have taken the female phenotype literally: genuinely not realising that cis men too will mask, not asking questions to find out about what it is actually like to be autistic. This is a frustrating step backwards IMO. I love the idea of overhauling existing assessment procedures to better accommodate the infinite ways that traits can present; I also love the idea of talking about camouflaging in a more nuanced way!
How radical! Let's treat people who come for an autism diagnosis as individuals... Whatever next! I totally agree... I'm 64 years old and have flown under the radar all this time. My own self-recognised autistic traits are a complete mix of "male" and "female" characteristics.
Hearing from both you and Sam on this has helped me so much. Having been diagnosed at 39 (a month ago), I'm frantically questioning everything. And, of course, as always in my life, I have presented more on the "female" side, despite not being female, not being trans... Whether I identify as male, I don't know-- maybe demi-male, or close enough to male I think. But all my life people have thought I was gay or just in touch with my "feminine side" or whatever else-- and now we can be told we have "female" autism or a female brain or whatever, jeez, what a road to go down. Again, so helpful to hear from both of you on this topic. Hearing from just one of you would not have been enough. I relate so much with Sam that sometimes I go down mental rabbit holes, and your having done a video on the same topic from another angle was perfect to help me synthesize it all. I think most importantly, I was somewhat unconscious to the gendering and pathologization, and I could have played into that somewhat. I will continue questioning my gender, etc, but I won't let the notion of gendering my behavior be an influence. I have always known that was silly, ever since I was a toddler that liked pink and kept being told I was supposed to like blue. It's not that I was gay or being feminine. Sometimes a person just likes pink!
Mate, you’re male. I find it sad that you’re confused. You feel different to other males because you have Autism! You either buy into “gender norms” or you don’t. Which one is it?
Whoo hoo!
I love what you do
I agree. After all my research I've noticed the way I present is much more like the "female autism" way of presenting. It's added to my imposter syndrome with my realization of being autistic. So I'm glad you've made this video :)
As an autistic trans woman, I really appreciate this. Though it is through the theory of "Autism in Girls" that I learned I was autistic, I found that this theory brought me and many other autistic trans folks a lot of dysphoria (for example, I became immensely dysphoric recognising some traits in myself that the theory would designate "male") and furthermore excluded a lot of autistic people - both trans and cis. I began to feel very strongly about this, focusing on the idea of degendering autism and autism diagnosis, and thinking of ways to restructure the entire system, which I believe necessary for all autistic people of all genders and all experiences. This video really means a lot to me as an autistic trans femme and I really love what you have said and the suggestions you have made. Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences. Thank you so much. Subscribed and excited to be so!💜
thanks so much for addressing this topic. i've felt saddened & confused by seeing all the 'male' / 'female' labeling, especially because i am genderqueer, autigender & a lot of autistic peeps i know are trans. most autistic people i know are like "what is gender?!" so yah... that being said i've been in the medical system my whole life (i am 40) & they just now asked my pronouns & my name.
also it just seems like autism research (the ones the doctors refer too) isn't actually by autistic people, its written by nt's & people who don't actually speak with people with autism. i'm quite tired of the dynamic of going into a doctor that is supposed to be an 'expert' tho we are the ones bringing them research, not to mention we know ourselves better than they do but they act like they do. they have too much power & its so frustrating. this needs to change. i totally agree we need better.... on many levels! thanks ella , thanks for being
Thanks for talking about this topic. I'm trans male and these gender stereotypes made it very difficult for me to get diagnosed. As a child I was read as female and at that time, it wasn't widely known (at least here in germany) that girls can be autistic and/or have adhd, too. So the doctors/psychologists I was sent to didn't recognize it. The only said, I was lazy, badly reared, cheeky, stubborn... but otherwise "healthy". Me and my parents were blamed for my behavior.
I'm 33 years old now. For the past 4 years I tried to get diagnosed, after my therapist voiced his suspicion, I might be autistic. The first psychiatrist I went to had trouble finding out, what exactly was wrong. After a diagnostic investigation of over a year she said, it is add and depression. She wasn't sure about autism, said, it was very complicated to differentiate in my case. I guess, it might have been because I'm quite feminine. At this time I was already "living as a male" but didn't fit the stereotypes of male autistic people. Later I found out about "female autistic traits" online and thought to myself, that they describe really well my feelings, my perception and my presentation. (This confused me in my gender identity for a short while.) But I didn't know, how to explain this to a doctor. I thought, they would never believe me or might even think, I wasn't male (and so not trans) at all. So I thought to myself: forget about it.
About two years later my life got more difficult regarding social expectations, and sensory issues (daily long rides on the train) so I decided to try again to finally get help. I got lucky that time because the doctor was educated about gender and characteristics/issues of trans people. He told me that he was absolutely sure that I'm autistic (and have add), although I don't show any of the "typically male" stereotypes of autism.
To conclude: as a child I wasn't diagnosed because "I was a girl" and as an adult I wasn't diagnosed because I wasn't "male/masculine enough".
I'm very glad, I finally know, what's going on with me and that I can get some help with everyday life in the future. I wish, more doctors in autism and adhd diagnosis were educated about gender topics because this could help so many people to understand themselves.
I wasn't diagnosed until adulthood and it was both a shock and a relief because I finally knew why I was "weird"
I am a 29 year old woman and mother, diagnosed at age 25. At 6 I was diagnosed with ADHD and apparently that is a common misdiagnosis or underdiagnosis for autistic girls.
Coming to this quite late, but found it really helpful. I don’t know whether I’m autistic or just have a range of well-masked autistic traits without quite hitting the DSM-5 criteria, but I do know that (as a cis man) I almost fell off my chair when I read the list of “female autism” traits in Devon Price’s Unmasking Autism (the scare quotes are Price’s: he too is scathing on the idea of gendering autism). So much of it was recognisable. I think I learnt that “quieter, more camouflaged presentation” as I moved from childhood into my preteens and teens.
Also, like you, I have a (young adult) trans daughter, and she now strongly suspects (and I think she’s probably right) that she’s autistic. And with a similar mix of stereotypically “female” and stereotypically “male” traits.
Interestingly... oh I don't want to write a whole book here but I could- Quirky males, being sensitive, artsy, quiet, and weird etc. is exactly flipped (depending on culture of course), and so I had to mask hard to fit in with (my southern US macho) society's rather rigid expectation of "Manhood" or face bullying and ridicule. It was rather stressful. Still unpacking that trauma all these decades later. Anyway, I got Really good at masking. It's the only way I survived years of working retail and dealing with people.
I think, perhaps (and I mentioned this on Sam's vid) something like a meyer's briggs sort of autism spectrum trait thing would be helpful. I think whatever autism IS, it manifests in people in line with their type of information processing and personality. I am far more Arts than STEM, and as such that's how my autism presents.
I am schizoaffective bipolar with social anxiety. A few months ago an online friend blurted out that a lot of the time I sounded more autistic to her than anything else. I've had unquestionably schizophrenic and bipolar breaks--both separate and together. But my manic episodes tend to focus on special interests--my biggest manic episode went mostly unnoticed by family members because they were sort of used to me going on about rodent nutrition studies anyways.
I used to have conversations with my Dad where I’d give a couple of paragraphs about something, he’d say “that’s interesting” and then give me a comparable little talk about something he was interested in.
Reading about social anxiety always upsets me--because everybody says the cause is low self-esteem, and that I must worry all the time about people judging me, and I need to change the “tape” playing in my head. And that’s not me at all. Sometimes I’m paranoid that the driver behind me is going to follow me home and kill me, but I don’t feel judged by them, I’m just having a bit of a schizo moment. My social anxiety at work--usually it’s this manager and this worker are butting heads a bit, or that worker’s father is in the hospital, or that guy’s depressed and I’m worried about him or something. Just generally anxious and latching on to whatever's available to spiral over. Sometimes I’m “up” and that stuff affects me less, sometimes I’m down with a tendency to spiral. If I go grocery shopping--most of the time that’s a stressful event, but again if I’m up it’s sort of like a roller coaster, scary but enjoyable, down it’s scary. I used to sing to distract myself from the anxiety, with covid, singing spreads way more aerosol even with a mask than just breathing or speaking. So I tried something I do at work when I get anxious waiting for something--I jump up and down. Usually at work I’ll make a joke out of it, like I’m pretending to be that impatient, but really it just sort of helps when anxiety is giving me too much energy. Anyways, none of that sounds much to me like I’m that worried about what people think.
Anyways, I read a Baron-Cohen paper the other day looking at a systemizing questionnaire combined with the empathy quotient one, so I found the two tests online and took them. Asperger’s/autistic spectrum tests keep giving me high scores. These ones--I scored 24/80 on the empathy one. Which--I find it interesting if a lot of autistic people have similar scores to mine but also tells me that whatever the test is, it’s not really a good test of empathy. I’m a Linus, not a Lucy. Whether I’m autistic or not--if I can score low on that test, so can somebody who’s unquestionably autistic, and if it can be wrong about my empathy it can be wrong about theirs. This is similar to the problem with social anxiety--the internal state of many of the people affected is difficult to access. We know with neurotypical people that how you ask a question greatly affects their answer--so that one thing that could be going on is a different response to a particular phrasing in people with a different cognitive style. Verbal reasoning may work a little differently, what does that say about empathy? The systemizing quotient test--there’s where those gender stereotypes come in. All about trains and interest in committees and parliamentary procedures. One question asked about thinking about how precisely a mountain was formed--I said I never thought about this, because I never really thought that mountains were formed all that precisely. Now I’m wondering if they meant have you thought about how, precisely, mountains are formed--about the process rather than the precision. Which you’d think they could have just said. So I don’t care about trains or committee structure, but maybe I’d like to edit their test for them, does that count for anything?
As an AMAB person seeking a diagnosis, this video was very important.
I identify heavily with the symptoms of autism "in girls" and never understood and participated fully in the male gender roles, considering myself a NB person nowadays.
Highlighting female differences in autism has helped me tremendously, since it explains how one does not necessarily fit in all the stereotypical male dx criteria. Perhaps just broaden to include those aspects for everyone, yet if there was a way to have a male to female scale without labeling it such, because having what is currently considered more specific, "female" aspects highlighted/limited away from the more, "male" REALLY made a difference in even considering a dx.
And this is the beauty of being thoughtful, self-critical people - as we learn more, we can do better. I always say “this is my opinion as of now, but I reserve the right to change my mind with more information.” I’ve been thinking about this topic a lot as my mom presents in a more traditional “male”/aspergers way, and I straight up “pass” because masking is a subconscious effort for me and people question my autism a LOT.
100% agree. I am assigned male at birth but identify as non binary. However I relate a lot more to the female autism stereotypes, also I was only diagnosed last year so went undiagnosed for 26 years. What a trip!
Love this and Sam’s video - and I love that you both create such wonderful content as autistic women. You’ve both inspired me so much, so thank you. I’m going to litter this video with comments no - don’t mind me 😍
Thanks for the video! I've started to suspect that I might be on the spectrum lately, especially after learning about so called "female" presentation of autism and masking (I'm a man, but this presentation seems to fit me to some degree, at least for some symptoms). I've heard someone mention that in addition to gender, childhood abuse seems to be tied to masking. This would be applicable in my case, punishment was used to correct "bad" behaviors in my youth that I now realize look a lot like traits of autism and ADHD. It's helpful to see people moving away from referring to male/female presentation, it might have been one of the reasons I missed so many signs. I grew up in the 80s, and things were VERY gendered back then in how these things were discussed.
Genderfluid here but AFAB. Awaiting assessment for autism.
Your description of "described as a bit much" is totally me. I am loud. I tend to accidentally steamroller people.
I love your discussion of this issue, something I've thought about a lot. I love the variations of your and Sandys discussions.
This is a great video, I watched Sam's video too and also watch Sam's channel. I love both your channels! Also, I am slowly beginning to think that my gender might be on the non-binary spectrum but I am still processing and thinking about it. I fit very well into the autistic female stereotype of shy, bookish, internalised and likes to spend time on my own or with animals though and got my diagnosis only a month or so ago.
I also just wanted to say that I also have a special interest in Pokemon like your daughter!! It's the longest one I've had and still have to this day and has made up such a huge part of my life. I'm glad she enjoys it so much too! I have to recommend the movies also. They're really fun to watch and I watch them on days where I am especially fatigued or ill or need a relaxing, special interest related thing to watch in meltdown or burnout recovery. The Rise of Darkrai is my personal favourite.
oh for real! I've always been the kind of theatrical, imaginative girl who talked all the time, and from a very young age. I wouldn't speak that much at school though. And I didn't cry as a child. I am still that way...still waiting to get a diagnosis
This is a very needed conservation. I think the idea of gendered autism is a silly idea. I do totally agree with you that autism has a lot of baggage from the past. I see online community's splitting into different community's, women's autism and everyone else. Yes things like masking should be part of the diagnoses. I'm a man that was diagnosed at 40 and I have mostly the soft (quiet) traits, I was just told I was shy all my life. I do feel left out of the conversation and community most of the time, most of the issues I have are more the sorts of issues that are seen as 'female' autism but being male I don't feel welcome in that group so I'm basically left out of the online autism conversation.
But everything is being gendered now, so it's not surprising really, the gap between women and men seems to be ever growing. I find that sad. :(
The whole gender thing with autism is so arbitrary and flawed. As a young girl growing up I was seen as more of a tomboy and as girl who was more analytical and "cold" but when I transitioned and being read more as masculine/male I'm seen as more feminine and "in tune with my feelings"
Thank you for talking about this topic!
This had some thought triggers on many levels, thank you for sharing.
Yeah I've been thinking about this gender framing and perhaps we just need to expand the traits to look for when diagnosing autism. As a female autistic, I am very bad at masking. However I fit some of the other female autistic stereotypes.
Dead on. Glad there are multiple voices speaking up about this.
Excellent videos, yours and Sam's both! I've always felt at odds with the 'male autism vs female autism'. I'm female, going undiagnosed until later in life because I didn't fit the typical female autism profile. Although I'm almost completely right brained (no systemizing abilities here, and I'm horrendous at math, tech, and anything involving logic), and do exhibit a fair amount of typically female traits, overall I've always presented with far more typically 'male' traits. Because of this, it took nearly two decades for me to obtain a diagnosis.
My mother (an undiagnosed autistic herself with a more male presentation) and I were told time and time again either that autism exclusively affected males, or that I didn't fit the female profile of autism, therefore I couldn't be autistic. I cannot begin to describe how damaging this has been on my, and my family's, mental health and relationship, not to mention leaving me feeling like an anomaly and a failure for not being, to misappropriate the meme, "like other autistic girls".
Besides my mother and one of my female cousins, I have never met another autistic woman who presents similarly to me; however, I HAVE met several autistic men (of all genders and sexes) who exhibit more typically female traits. Unsurprisingly, most of these men were late diagnosed, or remain undiagnosed. Most professionals have too a rigid concept of how autism presents according to gender, and that's even before taking into account enbies and trans folk. I'll be forever thankful to people such as yourself who are doing more to boost and aid the public understanding of autism than the majority of so-called specialists seem to be.
Good video I feel like I do better in a small work setting. I had to adjust my life due to how quiet I was. Working independently helped me started back making income. Gender is important to know women are genetically different than men.
Hi Ella, great video! I've wondered about this, mainly as a late DX autistic person I realise I have masked since childhood and I'm good at it. I wonder how much damage has been done to anyone who is autistic regardless of gender and been refused, because they have children or can do eye contact or present autistic traits that don't fit in with what is expected based on stereotypes.
I love how you both wore the same sort of coveralls. So cute. Labels are helpful for me. I label everything. If it doesn't have a name or a label it makes me uncomfortable because it's the unknown. Having said that, I try not to put labels on people that will stereotype them or limit my perception of them. I realize that not everybody does that though. I think it's fascinating that people automatically think of males when they think of autism, and that people would feel left out by others wanting to identify and talk about autism as it relates to people similar to them. Thank you for bringing this up. Gender stereotypes seep into every aspect of social life it seems. I think it's best to say ALL brains are different and some have similar tendencies (regardless of what genitals the person has). I've been reading Nuerotribes, and the history of autism is just as garish and brutal as the history of psychology and medicine in general. We have a long way to go in understanding nuerodiversity in general.
I'm a not-as-yet-diagnosed 'likely' Autistic person. Over the years I've encountered many doctors, therapists and Counsellors etc. offering or giving me some help or guidance on my personal selection of confusions and apparent flaws. I have also read much.
It was never a feature whether the therapist, helper or writer was of male, female or indeed more fluid gender..... and I would have questioned the relevance of such information. I think we all group "us living things" into males and females, young, old.. it's easy in many cases, but not necessarily of use. As we are not concerned about the gender specific diagnostic capacity of the help perhaps now we can anticipate some reciprocity from those who have the power to construct the DSM and other similar guidance for the professionals.
I’m happy someone has made a video about this, I’m just a regular biological man and I’m undiagnosed right now but I’m looking to get formally diagnosed soon. I’m 21 and I’ve only recently discovered that I’m autistic so during my research I found out that most of traits would be considered female traits I mask HEAVILY and have been my whole life that’s why I’m only finding out now and my interests do align with more ‘normal’ things but I also have a few special ones that aren’t that I’m obsessed with eg. Astronomy.
It seems to me that labels such as "male autism" and "female autism" will do more harm than good. What I'd say is more important now is to find some method of diagnosing that includes input from autistic people and not to sole rely on tests written by neurotypical people. New tests need blind to gender stereotype in both their creation and in their practical function.
I have always thought of it, and called it ‘atypically presenting autism’. Almost from first realizing it in myself, I also realized my brother, dad, male cousins, and several male friends present atypically, (or perhaps non-stereotypically? Lol) so it didn’t actually make sense that it’s only a female thing.
I found this interesting. Partly because my ex boyfriend showed signs of verbal stimming and scripting while we were dating. But he's very good at masking I found, like he presents himself as kind of neurotypical and normative. He both is and is not an empathetic person. When he was a kid apparently his parents took him to the doctors to assess him but they decided he wasn't autistic. This he told me when I myself told him that I was on the spectrum and he reacted with the typically "we are all a bit autistic". I wonder why he could relate so much in hindsight. Perhaps because he was misdiagnosed. The more I look at it the more I see him as a person on the spectrum. He is just very accommodating. Me on the other hand was NOT like the typical "shy girl" when I was young. I was abrasive and kind of oblivious to that. Yes, I could also have my shy moments, and I held on tight to my best friend (so when she dumped me for some other girl I was devastated) but I liked socializing with many kids in my class and prior to social anxiety during puberty I always considered myself as pretty outspoken in my demeanor.
When I was younger I always tried to be kind of manly - I grew up with three brothers.
I used to heavyly gender everything in my worldview, trying to explain why I did not fit in with my female peers.
embracing the non-binary identity of demi-woman kind of helped me... as in, not seeing myself as a woman as much, or like how I perceived what being a woman was about, helped me embrace my femininity. And everything I deemed feminine. sounds kind of counter intuitive - but I mean it kind of makes sense? by stopping to asign every activity and thing and color a "gender" I freed myself from societal expectations of having to fit into the box "woman".
there was also alot of sexism involved: I hung out online alot and people would just ruin certain things for me because they stereotyped me to death because I happened to be a girl.
I love pink, because I love pink. Not because girls love pink.
I love knitting, because I love knitting, not because I aspire to be a good housewife (or whatever bullcrap stereotype is linked to knitting lmao)
I love computers, because I am a technik freak, not because I try to be more manly to catch up with my brothers
I love motorcycles, because I love being connected to things my brothers and my father love to do, not to be "manly" and "daring" and I only do it when I feel safe and I have fun doing it, not because my family pushes me
I am just kind of sad for those people out there who don't even try a nice hobby because it is not what their gender is supposed to do :(
I just can't explain how much this identity freed me.
Thanks, Ella! 💖 I'm pretty dialed-in to your analysis. I got my diagnosis in my early 30s in 2007, but that had more to do with a lack of general awareness of autism rather than my gender, since I'm a dude. All three of my kids are fairly obviously autistic (for anyone familiar with autistic people), but when we tried to get a diagnosis for my oldest daughter, Alex, at the school, she got that "nope, she makes eye contact" response from the school psychologist, who was retiring and taking the assessment literally as his last task on that job, and I doubt he knew much about autism or that he did any real research prior.
Did you and Sam purposefully match your clothing for these videos?
Glad you and Sam redid this topic. There are definitely high masking men & non-binary people.
I'm so scared of of even attempting to get a diagnosis. I know in my core that I'm Autistic but my traits are all over the place and since I suffered a lot of trauma since I was a small child everything gets dismissed as CPTSD. Both things can be true...
As a transmasc nb autistic person who has also been thinking about thks, I hope we can move away from gendered concepts of autism. It just happens that the literature tends to be through a cis-het / binary lens, which takes for granted the gendered socialization of children and fails to acknowledge the way society (medically, scientifically) tends to fail afab/trans/gender nonconforming people and the fact that transgender identity is often left out of the picture entirely.
I'm a cis white guy who hasn't been diagnosed yet. I want to acknowledge that there's a huge problem with how women are treated and diagnosed that i havent had to face. However from a symptom point of view I often feel like I have "female" autism. There were substantial expectations placed on my as a chuld around socialising, which I think may have helped build my mask.
Excellent, and well done. You and Sam are both so right and on it, thank you. I'm a nonbinary afab person and when I have a trans or nonbinary friend who has started to suspect they might be autistic, I've been describing a "classic" presentation and a "modern" (inclusive) presentation.
At first, I was THRILLED at the concept of "female autism". The validation of having ANY means by which I could say, "See, see this here?!? Someone is admitting that there's a way my autism is valid!!".
When you spend over 40 years being told "You're not autistic, you're just...".
Or even less--no mention of autism, just social ostracism in school/workplace and/or berating by loved ones because of one's "unwillingness" to get with the program.
So yes. "Female autism" was a godsend. And considering the degree to which autism is diagnosed as a checklist...there is still something to be said for having roughly two kinds.
However, your point is an excellent one, as "male/female" autism doesn't allow for non-binary people.
Maybe extroverted/introverted? Or unmasked/masked?
You touched on how females are socialized differently/punished more consistently and severely for gaffes. Regardless of how someone identifies his/her own gender, society identifies said gender at birth, and treats each individual accordingly until that person says otherwise (and even then, that's no guarantee of society adjusting its view).
I happen to be a cisgender straight woman. But I can assure you that my childhood culture would have socialized me as a straight female, regardless of any non-binary leanings I could have had.
So maybe "socialized as male/socialized as female" autism is a good option, at least for our society's current developmental stage?
Thanks a lot for this video! I'm an assigned female at birth EnBy, diagnosed with autism, and I match every single "male" autistic traits.
On the other end, I have a friend who's a cis-man and he was only diagnosed in his early 50s with autism because his traits are closer to those of "female" autism.
Gender expression, gender roles and gender expectations make NO SENSE.
Yes biologically there are differences between male and female (and intersex). And yes some of us feel that we were not born in the right body, or that the binary world is too narrow for us. So yes we're different.
But WHAT WE DO AND HOW WE REACT IS NOT/ SHOULD NOT BE GENDERED!
Externally presenting autism and internally presenting autism (not my idea - taken from an aucademy discussion). It makes sense to me. FAR better than gendering it.
I just want to say that I love that you both wear the same overall but in different colours :D What a nice metaphor: same topic but different approaches.
I'm a male aspie that fits the female asd stereotype. Just diagnosed yesterday I'm 35.
I am similar, I'm a man diagnosed last year at 38. I have a lot of "female" traits. Also I have some "male" traits. Turns out Autism much like Autistic people doesn't like to fit into molds.
As a nonbinary afab person, I can confirm. It’s super important to raise awareness of the misrepresentation and under representation of women and girls in autism studies and diagnostic criteria, 1,000%! But sticking with that super binary language still at the end of the day forces people like me to yet again feel caught somewhere in the middle, yet again feeling left out and ignored, as if we haven’t had enough of that already. As an afab person, I never had stereotypical female special interests, instead mine were 1970s-early 1980s muscle cars, then fighter jets, then theoretical astrophysics, musculoskeletal anatomy, politics, fantasy books/film-not the things girls are reported to have special interest in. I couldn’t care less about sitcoms or famous pop stars. I also don’t have meltdowns all that often, maybe once every year or two, which again is something I’ve seen attributed more to females for better or for worse.
I guess where I stand is this: we must keep bringing more and more awareness to the intricacies between genders and sexes when it comes to typical presentations of autism in different groups, highlighting the commonly missed, understood presentations that women and girls experience more frequently. But we must also be comfortable with ambiguity and nuance in those distinctions, so that nonbinary and trans people like me and Super Kid aren’t left out of the conversation-or worse, outright discriminated against by assessors because we’re not typical enough autistic for our particular genital arrangement.
Edit: forgot to mention, I mask HEAVILY, and have my entire life, I was socialized in the way that girls are, and in the deep sound of the US, that means being socialized through the “sit down and shut up” method, where girls are expected to be quiet and seen only and to not talk to adults (especially men) unless spoke to. Super toxic stuff, of course, but I still always felt so much pressure to fit in, to be a “normal” girl, when I VERY much was not, in either sense.
Also, I loved this video, thank you so much for bringing this up and sharing your thoughts, I hope this is the next step we take on understanding autism. Neurotypical trans and nonbinary people get to exist, so why not neurodiverse trans and nonbinary people, too?
Describing it as female and male autism can hurt amab too. If the masking and more internalized autistic people are thought to be mostly girls, then how would that help the boys who don’t get diagnosed because they also mask? Teaching masking as a girl thing will help afab people get diagnosed but brings no awareness to autistic boys who mask. Autistic people who mask early on are already are very under diagnosed regardless for sex or gender and I think we should bring awareness so all of them can get diagnosed before adulthood.
Excellent. I agree on Baron Cohen, but there is real value in exploring lines of thought that turn out to be dead ends because it eliminates possibilities. It's a bit like climate change where the BEST project of climate sceptics ended up proving their hypothesis wrong confirming the reality of climate change. It'll be great to at least get gender out of these arbitrary categorizers. Autism is much more than a linear spectrum, it has complex topography. You have to consider individual by individual.
As I was said on Sam's channel all autistic people I've gone out with, including 2 cis woman, had a more stereotypical "male" presentation, while me, a trans woman, lean more to the "atypical/female" presentation.
That moment when Sacha become the serious one at the Baron-Cohen christmas table because Simon's "hyper-masculine brain" theory don't hold up to much when I enter the room...well at least he tried something and that's science: you hypothesize, and then peers and empiric observation prove or disprove or nuance your theories.
Yes this is so inportant!! I happen to present this way as well as my son. I wasnt diagnosed till adulthood and had to fight hard to get my sons diagnosis because he didn't present stereotypical male autism. The male and female labels definatly have to go. They should just have different ways it may present qithout the gender labels attetched.
Great video Ella. Totally agree
Great video Purple Ella, I hope it gets loads of views so awareness spreads 😀💚
I wish they would just add the 'female traits' to the general criteria for an autism diagnosis so doctors could just look for all the traits instead of either male or female traits. But since we're not there yet, I think it's important to raise awareness of this different way autism can present and I do think it should be mentioned that that presentation is more common in girls, but calling it 'female autism' just isn't accurate.
I'm male and have "girl autism". That does feel a little weird. It seems like the discussion of gender differences in autism that I've encountered so far are pretty clearly descriptive rather than prescriptive, though. I have some traits that are more common in women-that's fine. Those happen to be traits of women who I like, and why wouldn't I want to be similar to people I like?
At times when I was more sensitive about not fitting in with male gender norms, this might have bothered me. In that context, the concept of "girl autism" might have been a stimulus that produced a negative response from me, but "sensitive about not fitting in with male gender norms" would have been the real issue-I would have benefited from help addressing *that*.
So long as it's descriptive and we're all comfortable with re-evaluating the description based on new information, and comfortable with the concept of probability ("men are more likely to..." rather than "men are ..."), I don't see anything to worry about here. However, awareness of the risk of description becoming prescriptive, and the risk of forgetting that exceptions are expected, is certainly a good thing. Those are real risks. I'm not experiencing them as problems that exist currently, but they are problems that could exist.
I'm new to all this, but I'm feeling very included. :-)
They wouldn't diagnose my daughter because she makes eye contact. But I know who my daughter is and I know she is autistic
So fabulous. I agree!
I'm here from Sam's video!
Did you two (Samdy) wear matching overalls on pupose? Thank you!
I like how you and Samdy wore similar clothing for your videos on the same topic : )
I think we could call it " internalising" vs. " externalising" type, because I believe that is the point where the outer appearance results from?!
I think we can need to analyze traits that present differently depending on gender as a gage when examining ADS individuals.But not as something full proof. Gender identity can be formed by social conditioning. Society can tolerate abrasive, aggressively unmasked men, but ASD females learned to mask as a way to combat social isolation for sheer survival over many years of human existence. Even today, modern society frowns upon women asserting their true selves. But an unmasked woman is the diamond we all dream to become one day, autistic or otherwise. Truly liberated.
I don't think assuming trans women don't deal with societal misogyny and being forced to be a certain way is accurate, also I don't think considering trans WOMEN not women is supportive cause it's actually quite cissextist (acting like cis peoples gender is more real or valid than trans people) also as a trans woman on the autism spectrum I actually fit the "female/woman" autism more than I've ever lined up with the males and that assumption shows a complete misunderstanding of what being trans actually is, so assuming that trans people especially trans women have "male" autism is very messed up an does not correlate to the facts of how autistic women including trans women present, thst being said I agree with your opinion that it's not nessisary to gender autism presentations, but there's a lot of misinformation about trans people especially trans women coming from thier parents instead of centering the actual way and actual experience of how trans people are and are treated today and I'm just doing my part to correct that, anyway have a good day
Hi, great video 😊 I have subscribed!
Love the Yaks also! So cool you guys co-ordinated clothes! 😍
I love that you both used overalls
I love that you and Sam have the same overalls in my two favorite colors!💜💚
I'm an American and I can definitely see myself traveling to Europe. I feel stupid I should of came to Europe a few yrs ago. There are a lot Autistic people in Great Britain. I like European culture at least I grew up watching James Bond.
Couldn't they just call it invisible autism like the came up with the term invisible dyslexia which describes people who are dyslexic but are harder to recognize the traits no gender nessicary just measures how is presents itself
She's Free !
Thanks for the video. My thoughts exactly
I'm an empath and I definitely have great empathy. Faulty theories by neurotypicals who are not listening, and see autism as a problem.