I’ve always “isolated” my Vista by mounting it with double sided VHB tape, but I did that to isolate it from vibration more than anything else. I’ve also had both the positive and negative battery wires cut through and touch the frame, it was funny trying to fly it back while it was sparking and browning out lol Back in the day the bottom deck often contained both negative and positive rails and in some designs was one great big PDB, nobody was bothered about stuff being grounded back then, I’ve always considered the frame to be grounded though, it’s just good electrical practice especially for those of us who’ve worked on cars and motorcycles.
Just a thought about RF performance of grounded/non-grounded frame: 1] All RF designers have a good practice to ground up a metal case of their RF device - it usually helps to overall performance. I understand why Vista is grounded - it's a good practice. 2] Because some/all antennas we use (dipole, circular) aren't perfectly balanced (simple dipole is around 73Ω and I highly doubt that all RXs (which are often also transmitting telemetry) have their input/output matched to that - I guess more common impedance of 50Ω is used frequently), then even the feed-line is part of the antenna and it's affecting resonance, impedance, radiation pattern ... So having a frame grounded definitely adds a complicated RF behavior, which is in some cases good (it helps to RF performance), in some cases bad (makes RF performance worse), depending on exact antenna(s) position and its parameters. If a frame isn't grounded, there's still an important influence of antenna position and orientation in respect to VTX and all other PCBs and electrically connected devices. And at the end - just the presence of carbon frame in the vicinity of antenna influences its RF performance because of capacitive coupling and reflection. (This is also I guess the reason why carbon propellers do influence the RF performance on some drones. The designers of the drone probably tested it and optimized it for the best RF performance in "default" configuration and any change to that may influence the RF performance). So to sum it up: From an RF point of view - the grounded frame is totally valid thing and sometimes it can help to improve the RF performance and sometimes it can be the opposite - everything depends on the physical layout and placement of all components From a DC point of view - it adds one possible mode of failure (VBAT wire shorting to ground) to MANY already existing modes of failure. Route and protect your VBAT wire(s) properly in any case.
Even if the carbon fiber becomes grounded if you don't short anything to ground there isn't a problem. The first thing we used to do with carbon fiber frames when building helicopters is sand all the corners so there are no sharp edges that will cut any wires. What can be a problem is a signal antenna wire on a receiver lying in a carbon fiber frame which can potentially block the signal.
For me the problem is that caddx Vista mounting holes are grounded more than the external shield, or is it? Have you checked or can you check if you have an open caddx vista double board, if the screws holes are grounded or not? Just to understand if it's only the external shield grounded or all the internal boards becomes grounded together through the holes if a screw is in it?
T-motor esc’s mounting holes are not grounded, but not isolated also! Check the continuity between motor phases and mounting holes. If you’re using metal stack screws without gummies- that’s where your issue starts to happen. There will be issue without grounded frame also, but not so much (desync or inconsistent behavior, you can say something is wrong in bidirectional dshot error rate, even before fly)
I don't see why this is so controversial, and we don't need the melodrama. This is from the description ImpulseRC wrote about their Apex DC frame, which RDQ added to their website. So it's not from RDQ, it's from ImpulseRC. They were trying to do a little marketing around (what they believe) is a thoughtful design approach to solve a potential issue (and I'm sure it's an issue they've seen happen at least once, otherwise why bother?) ... If your Vista (or anything for that matter) is grounded to frame, and a live wire touches the frame, there's a potential for damage to any grounded components. A potential. Because the vista is expensive and not very easily replaced, they thought to isolate it - similar to how ESCs and FCs are technically isolated, as well. If I had a particularly bad crash and one of my (+) wires touched the frame, its damage may well be limited if my other sensitive electronics are isolated electrically from the frame. You're right that it's probably a non-issue for most, but it's just a little extra insurance Impulse RC just built into their design, my assumption is based on some number of complaints or concerns from customers. When I build, I isolate my HDZero VTX, my RX and everything else I can from metal-to-frame contact, because I've fried components in bad crashes when a live wire touched the frame by accident. Or a poor soldering job or bad mounting on my part caused an issue. This really isn't a controversy. Build however you want, isolate your stuff if you want. end of story.
Treat the carbon frame as a conductive chassis onto/into which you are mounting electronic modules. In a system which includes fast switching high current, RF amplifiers, and a processor, we Must pay attention to each of their grounds. In my decades of electronics building and troubleshooting, the grounds are the first thing I inspect. “Single Point Ground” aka star ground is still a valid concept.
Posted this comment on JB's vid: I've had a flight controller die for this exact reason in the past, could have been prevented had I used this/a similar frame which isolates BOTH the DJI Camera and Vista. (people forget that the DJI camera is metal and also grounded to the vista).. There are lots of ways that your frame can get electrically charged, for example crashing and a motor bell bending which shorts to a winding (how I killed mine), or wire or a vbat wire shorting directly etc. This is just another safety measure and worth having. People who don't think this is a good idea probably haven't had this happen or aren't crashing enough to know.
A flight control touching the frame regardless of a Vista being present is going to create shorts between various parts of a the flight controller board. Having a grounded frame only slightly increases an electrical path being completed. The difference being zero, to one non-ground point on flight controller, to more than one point on flight controller touching the frame.
@Mads Tech Is there any way you could please link this full livestream here? I've been looking for this full livestream, and can't find it. Thank you my friend!
Ian, i checked my vista for continuity between GND and its heatsinks, mine is not grounded although the screws were, maybe there is some sort of coat on that!
Good discussion with nice examples. I view grounding to the frame as an advantage, because it creates a known reference. (Unrelated in modern home appliance design, appliances have their casing grounded. This wasn't always the case and created some hazardous situations like touching an appliance and a metal sink) The carbon propeller situation is interesting. (8:55) Would expect the propellers acting like a shielded disk (rather 4 of them covering a larger plain area) If the effects are changing relative to motor rpm, it's likely similar to placing an antenna next to a larger plainer metal surface. There going to be radio wave reflections likely creating a very noisy (radio) environment. Worst case likely would be for a pusher (carbon propellers below motor) and antenna above the drone where the pilot is below the flying drone.
Thats not exactly from RDQ, its from the new ImpulseRC Apex DC frame description. Trying to making selling points for the frame, causing kaoss at the same time. Deffently have never had an issue with grounding. Make sure you builds are done right, and you shouldn't ever have an issue.
The ground tracks are not thick enough to survice a short, maybe, I don't know, but if a disaster happens it happens. The gounding of the VTX body is done for RF reasons I am guessing. Interestingly the heatsink of the 1W hdzero VTX has a non conductive coating - Macs Life shows this in one of his videos.
This will be why people destroy the diodes on the serial ports of vistas in the event they have a motor winding short to the frame, etc. Motor bells can and do sometimes smash the windings in a crash, that would short the vista.
Don’t think the isolation is a bad thing, it controls flow. You want the grounds faults to bypass the expensive stuff. But really, built your stuff solid and shouldn’t be a problem. Better a negative ground than a positive ground. But really seemed like grasping for dji hate.
I would hope that any RF device is grounded, especially one that uses unbalanced feeder (coax). Unless the antenna is balanced or has some form of counterpoise to work against, then using the chassis as a ground is the only way to ensure efficiency. And efficiency does not mean a low SWR but rather the reactive components, Xc and Xl are close to or equal zero. As for 5inch (12.7cm) carbon props?? 12.7cm is close enough for government work to be a resonant full wave on 2.4GH. Carbon is RF conductive and absorbent, more so when it’s physical size is equal to a resonant property of the frequency being used. Which coincidently brings us back to the grounding effects of a quad frame.
Carbon fiber props are bad for RF because it's basically 4 rotating mirrors that are located close to the antenna. It will reflect and scatter the waves all over the place.
the potential issue is, that if the frame is grounded, and the positive battery wire touches the frame, the quad will fall out of the sky which is something preferably avoided, hm? especially in professional settings, i guess
Isolating the vista case from the frame is a BAD thing , because if a positive wire does come into contact with it the only path for the current to take is through the units sensitive bits ,and it will burn the earths and let the smoke out, I allways ground the case , i have many vistas and air units and no problems
Wrong Wrong. Easy situation. I overtightened one motor bolt by mistake and it touched the motor winding. At the time of the next start, Vista stopped showing the image. Was sent to a service center and restored. (I live near one of DJI main offices) ... Many frame manufacturers add plastic pads to the motors in the kit. At any time, you can repeat my situation - if you try to fix the motor stronger. Take my word for it - I was surprised - when I realized what happened.
Yea but the issue was not the vista. The issue is as you shorted the motor bolt to the motor. Now let’s look at this different, vista was isolated and you flew and it worked until it broke though the wire and you downed the craft and damaged the frame, Lipo and burnt the ESC. Again the issue was the bolt. The simple realty is bad things will happen when something goes wrong. Adding the vista into the mix via grounding is not a major contributing factor. .
@@MadRC sure. just wanna say - if the vista's body will be not grounded - it will be much more better for durability. I just change the bolt - all motors and stuck works well and back to normal - but not Vista
Lol what if I crash into a moving car and it crashes into a fuel truck and it veers into a nuclear reactor and blows half the earth 🌎 up ooooo didn't think of that. What a croc of shit... The biggest worry I have is me crashing , I've never had this problem with a vista . I crash alot 🤣✊️
Lol been flying my vistas over 2 years and this was news to me that grounding was even an issue
I’ve always “isolated” my Vista by mounting it with double sided VHB tape, but I did that to isolate it from vibration more than anything else.
I’ve also had both the positive and negative battery wires cut through and touch the frame, it was funny trying to fly it back while it was sparking and browning out lol
Back in the day the bottom deck often contained both negative and positive rails and in some designs was one great big PDB, nobody was bothered about stuff being grounded back then, I’ve always considered the frame to be grounded though, it’s just good electrical practice especially for those of us who’ve worked on cars and motorcycles.
Just a thought about RF performance of grounded/non-grounded frame:
1] All RF designers have a good practice to ground up a metal case of their RF device - it usually helps to overall performance. I understand why Vista is grounded - it's a good practice.
2] Because some/all antennas we use (dipole, circular) aren't perfectly balanced (simple dipole is around 73Ω and I highly doubt that all RXs (which are often also transmitting telemetry) have their input/output matched to that - I guess more common impedance of 50Ω is used frequently), then even the feed-line is part of the antenna and it's affecting resonance, impedance, radiation pattern ... So having a frame grounded definitely adds a complicated RF behavior, which is in some cases good (it helps to RF performance), in some cases bad (makes RF performance worse), depending on exact antenna(s) position and its parameters. If a frame isn't grounded, there's still an important influence of antenna position and orientation in respect to VTX and all other PCBs and electrically connected devices. And at the end - just the presence of carbon frame in the vicinity of antenna influences its RF performance because of capacitive coupling and reflection. (This is also I guess the reason why carbon propellers do influence the RF performance on some drones. The designers of the drone probably tested it and optimized it for the best RF performance in "default" configuration and any change to that may influence the RF performance).
So to sum it up:
From an RF point of view - the grounded frame is totally valid thing and sometimes it can help to improve the RF performance and sometimes it can be the opposite - everything depends on the physical layout and placement of all components
From a DC point of view - it adds one possible mode of failure (VBAT wire shorting to ground) to MANY already existing modes of failure. Route and protect your VBAT wire(s) properly in any case.
Even if the carbon fiber becomes grounded if you don't short anything to ground there isn't a problem. The first thing we used to do with carbon fiber frames when building helicopters is sand all the corners so there are no sharp edges that will cut any wires. What can be a problem is a signal antenna wire on a receiver lying in a carbon fiber frame which can potentially block the signal.
For me the problem is that caddx Vista mounting holes are grounded more than the external shield, or is it? Have you checked or can you check if you have an open caddx vista double board, if the screws holes are grounded or not? Just to understand if it's only the external shield grounded or all the internal boards becomes grounded together through the holes if a screw is in it?
T-motor esc’s mounting holes are not grounded, but not isolated also! Check the continuity between motor phases and mounting holes. If you’re using metal stack screws without gummies- that’s where your issue starts to happen. There will be issue without grounded frame also, but not so much (desync or inconsistent behavior, you can say something is wrong in bidirectional dshot error rate, even before fly)
I don't see why this is so controversial, and we don't need the melodrama. This is from the description ImpulseRC wrote about their Apex DC frame, which RDQ added to their website. So it's not from RDQ, it's from ImpulseRC. They were trying to do a little marketing around (what they believe) is a thoughtful design approach to solve a potential issue (and I'm sure it's an issue they've seen happen at least once, otherwise why bother?) ... If your Vista (or anything for that matter) is grounded to frame, and a live wire touches the frame, there's a potential for damage to any grounded components. A potential. Because the vista is expensive and not very easily replaced, they thought to isolate it - similar to how ESCs and FCs are technically isolated, as well.
If I had a particularly bad crash and one of my (+) wires touched the frame, its damage may well be limited if my other sensitive electronics are isolated electrically from the frame. You're right that it's probably a non-issue for most, but it's just a little extra insurance Impulse RC just built into their design, my assumption is based on some number of complaints or concerns from customers. When I build, I isolate my HDZero VTX, my RX and everything else I can from metal-to-frame contact, because I've fried components in bad crashes when a live wire touched the frame by accident. Or a poor soldering job or bad mounting on my part caused an issue. This really isn't a controversy. Build however you want, isolate your stuff if you want. end of story.
i biult my new quad with caddx vista but i have a problem, when i arm the quad the signal don’t reach 50mbps but only 46-47 mpbs
I've got this problem without crash last week. The signal not stable while fly line of sight. Did you fixed it?
Me too, how to solve it?
Treat the carbon frame as a conductive chassis onto/into which you are mounting electronic modules. In a system which includes fast switching high current, RF amplifiers, and a processor, we Must pay attention to each of their grounds.
In my decades of electronics building and troubleshooting, the grounds are the first thing I inspect. “Single Point Ground” aka star ground is still a valid concept.
Posted this comment on JB's vid:
I've had a flight controller die for this exact reason in the past, could have been prevented had I used this/a similar frame which isolates BOTH the DJI Camera and Vista. (people forget that the DJI camera is metal and also grounded to the vista)..
There are lots of ways that your frame can get electrically charged, for example crashing and a motor bell bending which shorts to a winding (how I killed mine), or wire or a vbat wire shorting directly etc. This is just another safety measure and worth having.
People who don't think this is a good idea probably haven't had this happen or aren't crashing enough to know.
A flight control touching the frame regardless of a Vista being present is going to create shorts between various parts of a the flight controller board.
Having a grounded frame only slightly increases an electrical path being completed. The difference being zero, to one non-ground point on flight controller, to more than one point on flight controller touching the frame.
@Mads Tech Is there any way you could please link this full livestream here? I've been looking for this full livestream, and can't find it. Thank you my friend!
All well put Ian, proper job
Ian, i checked my vista for continuity between GND and its heatsinks, mine is not grounded although the screws were, maybe there is some sort of coat on that!
Good discussion with nice examples. I view grounding to the frame as an advantage, because it creates a known reference. (Unrelated in modern home appliance design, appliances have their casing grounded. This wasn't always the case and created some hazardous situations like touching an appliance and a metal sink)
The carbon propeller situation is interesting. (8:55)
Would expect the propellers acting like a shielded disk (rather 4 of them covering a larger plain area) If the effects are changing relative to motor rpm, it's likely similar to placing an antenna next to a larger plainer metal surface. There going to be radio wave reflections likely creating a very noisy (radio) environment.
Worst case likely would be for a pusher (carbon propellers below motor) and antenna above the drone where the pilot is below the flying drone.
EEVBlog meter. A man of culture
Only the best 😀
@@MadRC Yes it's great. Probably the last meter we bought
It’s the soft mount saga all over again! Was the editor Wild Willy or Johnny FPV🤣🤣👍
Many analog vtxs are also grounded. So... I also believe that damaged positive wire should not touch your frame in any case or you are in trouble.
Thats not exactly from RDQ, its from the new ImpulseRC Apex DC frame description. Trying to making selling points for the frame, causing kaoss at the same time. Deffently have never had an issue with grounding. Make sure you builds are done right, and you shouldn't ever have an issue.
What will happend if its tide build its not mounted secure enough and due to vibrations moves to fc an touches exposed esc solder pads...
The ground tracks are not thick enough to survice a short, maybe, I don't know, but if a disaster happens it happens. The gounding of the VTX body is done for RF reasons I am guessing. Interestingly the heatsink of the 1W hdzero VTX has a non conductive coating - Macs Life shows this in one of his videos.
This will be why people destroy the diodes on the serial ports of vistas in the event they have a motor winding short to the frame, etc. Motor bells can and do sometimes smash the windings in a crash, that would short the vista.
Don’t think the isolation is a bad thing, it controls flow.
You want the grounds faults to bypass the expensive stuff.
But really, built your stuff solid and shouldn’t be a problem.
Better a negative ground than a positive ground.
But really seemed like grasping for dji hate.
I would hope that any RF device is grounded, especially one that uses unbalanced feeder (coax). Unless the antenna is balanced or has some form of counterpoise to work against, then using the chassis as a ground is the only way to ensure efficiency. And efficiency does not mean a low SWR but rather the reactive components, Xc and Xl are close to or equal zero.
As for 5inch (12.7cm) carbon props?? 12.7cm is close enough for government work to be a resonant full wave on 2.4GH. Carbon is RF conductive and absorbent, more so when it’s physical size is equal to a resonant property of the frequency being used. Which coincidently brings us back to the grounding effects of a quad frame.
Carbon fiber props are bad for RF because it's basically 4 rotating mirrors that are located close to the antenna. It will reflect and scatter the waves all over the place.
the potential issue is, that if the frame is grounded, and the positive battery wire touches the frame, the quad will fall out of the sky
which is something preferably avoided, hm?
especially in professional settings, i guess
frame being grounded will protect your electronics from lighting strikes.. so there is a plus lol
So basically, good maintenance , pre-flight checks , job done ✅
could the ground cause hot motors?
Isolating the vista case from the frame is a BAD thing , because if a positive wire does come into contact with it the only path for the current to take is through the units sensitive bits ,and it will burn the earths and let the smoke out, I allways ground the case , i have many vistas and air units and no problems
no issues at all if rubbing wires are a concern lol talk to the builder lol
This is what happens when marketing gets involved in engineering.
Wrong Wrong. Easy situation. I overtightened one motor bolt by mistake and it touched the motor winding. At the time of the next start, Vista stopped showing the image. Was sent to a service center and restored. (I live near one of DJI main offices) ... Many frame manufacturers add plastic pads to the motors in the kit. At any time, you can repeat my situation - if you try to fix the motor stronger. Take my word for it - I was surprised - when I realized what happened.
Yea but the issue was not the vista. The issue is as you shorted the motor bolt to the motor. Now let’s look at this different, vista was isolated and you flew and it worked until it broke though the wire and you downed the craft and damaged the frame, Lipo and burnt the ESC. Again the issue was the bolt. The simple realty is bad things will happen when something goes wrong. Adding the vista into the mix via grounding is not a major contributing factor. .
@@MadRC sure. just wanna say - if the vista's body will be not grounded - it will be much more better for durability. I just change the bolt - all motors and stuck works well and back to normal - but not Vista
I take a risk every time I arm. It's FPV. And if your battery leads ware through your not matianing your quad. Shouldn't be flying.
I heard a dude say he cut his finger off cause he used an "old style circular saw"
Gotta ask chriss roser .. 😊
I don’t think I need to speak with Chris on this one. My 20 years as an electromechanical engineer will get me though I would think.
@@MadRC i mean on the carbon spinning thing
@@verdi6092 abhhh. Sorry. Yes it’s strange. I have been doing testing today and I got nothing.
Anyone see the Easter egg in the video? 😉
Lol what if I crash into a moving car and it crashes into a fuel truck and it veers into a nuclear reactor and blows half the earth 🌎 up ooooo didn't think of that. What a croc of shit...
The biggest worry I have is me crashing , I've never had this problem with a vista . I crash alot 🤣✊️
Don't eat on camera please...