switched 100% to mandrel , found bushing dies did not compensate for variance in neck wall thickness and expander balls adjust to fast and not 100% everywhere inside case necks
Running a full length sizing die with the decapping pin/expander ball removed, and as seperate steps do the decapping and expander mandrel to set neck tension
@@area419 your design is inefficient, 1, requires a Zero Press, 2, requires a new tool head. Additionally, it is not modular. & is 50%-100% more expensive than a SAC modular die.
@@TheArtofPrecision Our die absolutely costs more, but retains all function that you're describing (yes, it's modular, with the swappable parts becoming available soon), as well as adding the function of micrometer adjustable headspace. It's a different product at a different price point. Also, today it requires a ZERO, but in short order they will be available with common-style shellholders and can go in your standard RockChucker.
My strong bet is a ball gives it more chance to warp with spring-back, and if its not all straight, you won't feel or notice as much cause there's less surface for resistance. Some pins or balls float, too, which can allow it to drift. But a beefy mandrel won't, it should keep everything concentric, and straight.
While there are limited situations where neck turning can make sense, in a significant majority of situations we suggest people just buy good brass (Alpha and Lapua make great brass, are other good options too) and treat it well.
This is very helpful, and is one of the very few videos that explains and shows graphics of bushings and mandrels in detail. I bought some regular Redding premium dies, but not bushing dies. Instead I use a turning mandrel to give the .002” neck tension I need. A friend said I should ALSO use a bushing just to minimize how much the neck is worked (?), but since I anneal I haven’t worked that out yet, or completely understand the need for both the mandrel _and_ a bushing. Wonderful press there, and very well thought out dies. If I didn’t have years of investment already in several other presses I’d be all over the Area 419 products. Thanks for the helpful video! 👍
Isn't this the way the old standard dies have been sizing the neck? You are just doing it with better dies and more precision. What I prefer is simplicity, repeatability and reliability in a design. Buy the time we buy 4 or 5 bushings for our redding die, we have paid more than the price of a true custom die. I got into reloading from a hunting background. Much of the equipments that are out there do not meet the precision shooting requirements . I am glad that you are tackling some of these issues.
This is the way 99.99999% of dies work. The bushing and expander mandrel trend has only been mainstream for 10 years or so. The 419 die works the same way a $29 Lee sizer works except with bunch of years perfecting the most efficient way to get exacting results in a single step.
So what's the difference between the expander mandrel in the Area419 die and the typical expander "ball" in most FL dies? Right now, I'm using a FL bushing die with the expander removed to neck down slightly then running the brass through an expander mandrel to try and get consistent neck tension. The reason I started using an expander mandrel was because I was paranoid of stretching the brass by pulling the neck past an expander ball.
The problem with a ball-style is that it isn’t supporting the whole neck at once, and can cause less-than-straight necks. Our mandrel has a very long surface for sizing, meaning we can support the whole neck in a straight cylinder as we expand. Makes a huge difference.
Really nice equipment, but Holy cow man, at that price, I can do a lot of shooting. Quality ain't cheap, and I understand that, but damn, that's almost half as much as the zero press. I'll probably end up with the press one day. Haven't decided which nut I'm going to part with yet, but I'm considering it.
I've had some issues with pull through expanders messing up the head space and shoulder angle on some very shape angle shoulder cartridges such as 6 dasher and 300 wsm. Has this been observed with your dies at all, and what have you guys done to mitigate that risk? Should also add that I am using neck lube neck lube and have still encounter this problem
With a long lead angle and full length mandrel surface we have not seen this. There was a time we saw similar issues with ball-style expanders in other die systems, and that kind of thing specifically pushed us to a mandrel-style.
Looking at the insert to your dies: it looks like you have a sleeve that you can change out and that is the reamer cut chamber so could you for example slide in a different Creedmoor from a 6 to 6.5cm? Will you offer this in the future?
So, does the neck bushing even matter? If your finally step is the expanding mandrel that is set to a certain size, it wouldnt matter how small of bushing you actually use? Is this correct?
Craig: impressive die and very innovative. I understand you aim for .002 neck tension. How much does the die size the neck down before the mandrel come thru? For example is the 308 win neck .335 , .334 before the mandrel?
This is dependent on brass/cartridge, but when we did the math on how far we size the outside of the neck it's meant to make the ID of the neck .002 smaller than the smallest mandrel we sell at that diameter, with the thinnest commercially-available brass. So if you're using the stock mandrel you're likely going to see something like .004-.005 of neck sizing, brass dependent.
When I use a bushing to slightly undersized the brass to use an inside mandrel I notice with my AMP Press that the seating force is higher than just using correct size bushing in single step. So I might have tighter tolerances, but at the cost of more tension. Do you notice this with your dies?
What would your thoughts be on the best route to size a 6mm BR case that has been neck turned to work in a bench gun reamed with a chamber having a .262 diameter neck? I know that the neck does not expand over the elastic limits of the brass right away, but there is some change over a number of shots. Neck material thickness is about .008
If you've turned down your necks to .008" I think the mistakes have already been made. You may be doing it with success, but that's not something we would personally endorse. You're going to need a custom die with a custom neck for that application. I'd still say that your sizing die should size the neck nominally past your desired neck tension so that it can be set with a mandrel, and I hope you're annealing every time.
This afternoon I shot a 5 shot group at 100 metres with 11mm centre to centre & 21mm OD with 4.8 fps SD with a Sauer 101 hunting rifle in .308 using 42.9 gr of AR2206H and 140gr Outer Edge Ball Bearing tip copper monolith fired from ADI brass .3365 OD sized with an RCBS Match Master FL die and SAC .333 bushing. This is now my hunting load after repeated shoots showing the same grouping. All the techno jargon and marketing mean jack shit if you can’t drive your rifle and use your tools properly.
Torn between bushing dies, and expanding mandrel dies. @area419 stupid question…after using a wax etc to lube the case for sizing is it sufficient to just wipe it off, or should I clean the brass in the tumbler?
Very much depends on the lube. If you're using imperial, probably needs to come off. Removing one-shot isn't a big deal, have left that on cases for years. Any time you put something sticky in a rifle be really wary of cleanliness.
@@nebraskaman8247 If you go that route, be sure to use a lot of it. You'll see complaints of stuck cases online w one shot, it's usually to do with not using enough.
Also.... Take your die apart and clean every bit of "other" lube out before using one-shot. And don't switch back and forth between lubes, or you'll get stuck cases.
This reloading stuff is evolving so much that it’s come full circle…..back to the expander ball that in the beginning was supposed to be the worst thing ever.
An expander ball can actually cause a lot of problems. An expander needs to be shaped in a way that the sizing surface fully supports the neck during size.
It's always a give-and-take with explainer videos. Some guys, like you, really don't need them at all. You can skim a product description on the website and figure it out in a hurry. Other people need something really spelled out as they may be seeing a new concept or be new to reloading in general.
If you noticed the note on bottom of the screen at that point in the video, just some math in the moment. The .267 bushing would be the correct one. You add neck thickness twice as it's 0.013" per side (as bushings are diameters, not radius measurements.
I would to really see a UNBIAS review if your 500 dollar dies will make any better ammo then Brand X die. And don't send your wares to Ultimate Advertiser as we know he is a paid shill.
If your neck hardness is consistent, the relationship between the two is very good. The better job done with setting your post-sizing dimension, the smaller your variation in force on seating.
*Correction!* At 3:02, the final ID should be .241 in this scenario 👍
I use bushings and 21st century expander mandrel
switched 100% to mandrel , found bushing dies did not compensate for variance in neck wall thickness and expander balls adjust to fast and not 100% everywhere inside case necks
Running a full length sizing die with the decapping pin/expander ball removed, and as seperate steps do the decapping and expander mandrel to set neck tension
Look at Short Action Customs die which includes sizing and mandrel in one step.
@@TheArtofPrecision Did you not watch our video? Or just coming to our post to push someone else's goods?
@@area419 your design is inefficient, 1, requires a Zero Press, 2, requires a new tool head. Additionally, it is not modular. & is 50%-100% more expensive than a SAC modular die.
@@TheArtofPrecision Our die absolutely costs more, but retains all function that you're describing (yes, it's modular, with the swappable parts becoming available soon), as well as adding the function of micrometer adjustable headspace. It's a different product at a different price point.
Also, today it requires a ZERO, but in short order they will be available with common-style shellholders and can go in your standard RockChucker.
@@area419 The standards will fit the standard Zero tool-head as well?
Probably a silly question, but how is your pull through mandrel different than a standard expander ball?
My strong bet is a ball gives it more chance to warp with spring-back, and if its not all straight, you won't feel or notice as much cause there's less surface for resistance. Some pins or balls float, too, which can allow it to drift. But a beefy mandrel won't, it should keep everything concentric, and straight.
@@AC-bl1rl Bingo. Exactly right. The idea is similar, but in execution a longer bearing surface is very much needed for a consistent, concentric neck.
@@area419 mandrel could also help clean up inner micro wrinkles if you're having to size down a bit.
Thanks for the video; made things simpler/clearer.
Thank you for sharing your expertise
I run my cases through a Redding body die and push the shoulders back .002" and then a Lee collet neck sizing die.
Lee collet die here too Patrick.
Love it... this is exactly what I'm experimenting with atm. Without neck turning brass....
While there are limited situations where neck turning can make sense, in a significant majority of situations we suggest people just buy good brass (Alpha and Lapua make great brass, are other good options too) and treat it well.
This is very helpful, and is one of the very few videos that explains and shows graphics of bushings and mandrels in detail.
I bought some regular Redding premium dies, but not bushing dies. Instead I use a turning mandrel to give the .002” neck tension I need. A friend said I should ALSO use a bushing just to minimize how much the neck is worked (?), but since I anneal I haven’t worked that out yet, or completely understand the need for both the mandrel _and_ a bushing.
Wonderful press there, and very well thought out dies. If I didn’t have years of investment already in several other presses I’d be all over the Area 419 products. Thanks for the helpful video! 👍
I use sizing die/ shoulder bump, then run it into a mandrel for final I.D. of .003.
Isn't this the way the old standard dies have been sizing the neck? You are just doing it with better dies and more precision. What I prefer is simplicity, repeatability and reliability in a design. Buy the time we buy 4 or 5 bushings for our redding die, we have paid more than the price of a true custom die. I got into reloading from a hunting background. Much of the equipments that are out there do not meet the precision shooting requirements . I am glad that you are tackling some of these issues.
I use the bushing and this is the first time I seen this kind of die
This is the way 99.99999% of dies work. The bushing and expander mandrel trend has only been mainstream for 10 years or so. The 419 die works the same way a $29 Lee sizer works except with bunch of years perfecting the most efficient way to get exacting results in a single step.
So what's the difference between the expander mandrel in the Area419 die and the typical expander "ball" in most FL dies? Right now, I'm using a FL bushing die with the expander removed to neck down slightly then running the brass through an expander mandrel to try and get consistent neck tension. The reason I started using an expander mandrel was because I was paranoid of stretching the brass by pulling the neck past an expander ball.
The problem with a ball-style is that it isn’t supporting the whole neck at once, and can cause less-than-straight necks. Our mandrel has a very long surface for sizing, meaning we can support the whole neck in a straight cylinder as we expand. Makes a huge difference.
Really nice equipment, but Holy cow man, at that price, I can do a lot of shooting. Quality ain't cheap, and I understand that, but damn, that's almost half as much as the zero press. I'll probably end up with the press one day. Haven't decided which nut I'm going to part with yet, but I'm considering it.
I've had some issues with pull through expanders messing up the head space and shoulder angle on some very shape angle shoulder cartridges such as 6 dasher and 300 wsm. Has this been observed with your dies at all, and what have you guys done to mitigate that risk? Should also add that I am using neck lube neck lube and have still encounter this problem
With a long lead angle and full length mandrel surface we have not seen this. There was a time we saw similar issues with ball-style expanders in other die systems, and that kind of thing specifically pushed us to a mandrel-style.
Great stuff. Thanks
Looking at the insert to your dies: it looks like you have a sleeve that you can change out and that is the reamer cut chamber so could you for example slide in a different Creedmoor from a 6 to 6.5cm? Will you offer this in the future?
Yes it is - and we are actually REALLY close to offering those sleeves as separate parts making the die modular
I hope to see the release of the .308 sizing die soon. I have not been disappointed with a single purchase from 419 or customer service.
Soon!
@@area419 Thank you!
Very nice….when will this design be released for 7/8” turrets? I’m looking for 6 GT dies.
Hopefully end of year, realistically early next. Note that the 7/8 dies will have the same features EXCEPT for the micrometer-adjustable headspace.
So, does the neck bushing even matter? If your finally step is the expanding mandrel that is set to a certain size, it wouldnt matter how small of bushing you actually use? Is this correct?
@@Deuceblank exactly, which is why we don’t have interchangeable bushings
Craig: impressive die and very innovative. I understand you aim for .002 neck tension. How much does the die size the neck down before the mandrel come thru? For example is the 308 win neck .335 , .334 before the mandrel?
This is dependent on brass/cartridge, but when we did the math on how far we size the outside of the neck it's meant to make the ID of the neck .002 smaller than the smallest mandrel we sell at that diameter, with the thinnest commercially-available brass. So if you're using the stock mandrel you're likely going to see something like .004-.005 of neck sizing, brass dependent.
When I use a bushing to slightly undersized the brass to use an inside mandrel I notice with my AMP Press that the seating force is higher than just using correct size bushing in single step. So I might have tighter tolerances, but at the cost of more tension. Do you notice this with your dies?
If the tension is higher than you'd like, you probably need a marginally larger mandrel.
What would your thoughts be on the best route to size a 6mm BR case that has been neck turned to work in a bench gun reamed with a chamber having a .262 diameter neck? I know that the neck does not expand over the elastic limits of the brass right away, but there is some change over a number of shots. Neck material thickness is about .008
If you've turned down your necks to .008" I think the mistakes have already been made. You may be doing it with success, but that's not something we would personally endorse. You're going to need a custom die with a custom neck for that application.
I'd still say that your sizing die should size the neck nominally past your desired neck tension so that it can be set with a mandrel, and I hope you're annealing every time.
I use a 40 year old RCBS press, $39 Hornady die, and a $20 century 21 mandrel.
I just found you, love it
This afternoon I shot a 5 shot group at 100 metres with 11mm centre to centre & 21mm OD with 4.8 fps SD with a Sauer 101 hunting rifle in .308 using 42.9 gr of AR2206H and 140gr Outer Edge Ball Bearing tip copper monolith fired from ADI brass .3365 OD sized with an RCBS Match Master FL die and SAC .333 bushing. This is now my hunting load after repeated shoots showing the same grouping. All the techno jargon and marketing mean jack shit if you can’t drive your rifle and use your tools properly.
Torn between bushing dies, and expanding mandrel dies.
@area419 stupid question…after using a wax etc to lube the case for sizing is it sufficient to just wipe it off, or should I clean the brass in the tumbler?
Very much depends on the lube. If you're using imperial, probably needs to come off. Removing one-shot isn't a big deal, have left that on cases for years. Any time you put something sticky in a rifle be really wary of cleanliness.
Thanks! Maybe I’ll just use one shot. Be easier
@@nebraskaman8247 If you go that route, be sure to use a lot of it. You'll see complaints of stuck cases online w one shot, it's usually to do with not using enough.
Okay cool! Thanks for the help
Also.... Take your die apart and clean every bit of "other" lube out before using one-shot. And don't switch back and forth between lubes, or you'll get stuck cases.
Thanks
This reloading stuff is evolving so much that it’s come full circle…..back to the expander ball that in the beginning was supposed to be the worst thing ever.
An expander ball can actually cause a lot of problems. An expander needs to be shaped in a way that the sizing surface fully supports the neck during size.
I don't get it; 2 seconds is all it would have taken to make this video 4:19 in length. That aside, good info and production.
It's always a give-and-take with explainer videos. Some guys, like you, really don't need them at all. You can skim a product description on the website and figure it out in a hurry. Other people need something really spelled out as they may be seeing a new concept or be new to reloading in general.
0.241 ID + 0.013 wall thickness = 0.254 bushing???
If you noticed the note on bottom of the screen at that point in the video, just some math in the moment. The .267 bushing would be the correct one. You add neck thickness twice as it's 0.013" per side (as bushings are diameters, not radius measurements.
I would to really see a UNBIAS review if your 500 dollar dies will make any better ammo then Brand X die. And don't send your wares to Ultimate Advertiser as we know he is a paid shill.
I've never actually seen that guy reload anything.
You ever seen that guy actually reload anything?
Neck tension should be a measure of force and not a measurement of size
If your neck hardness is consistent, the relationship between the two is very good. The better job done with setting your post-sizing dimension, the smaller your variation in force on seating.
So tell us all your secrets. Where's the video?