Thanks mate. One of the most informative videos on mandrels I’ve seen. I’ve ordered an APW mandrel for set and screwed out all expander balls from my dies. I use a Lee universal to decap. Only been reloading a couple years and love learning what will make things more consistent.
Best video I’ve found on explaining expanders from top to bottom . Thanks for taking the time . Even after tons of research I still had a few question which you answered .
Knowing that my hunting ammo is very accurate (sub MOA or sub 1/2 MOA is even better) is a tremendous confidence booster for me even though I have seldom taken game over 200 yds! Thanks for your perspective!
You know, even with shooting under 200 yards, I have found that inconsistent neck tension is one of the causes of those shot flyers that we all cuss so much because we "did everything right." While the lengths were all the same, the crimps were all the same, brass can be a weirdly inconsistent metal, so if you're not ensuring consistent neck tension, you're going to get flyers. Great video.
another professional reloading video. Same experience as mine. Right said, if someones expectations are 0,5 MOA or better, this is a very important info 👍 You save a lot of time and money to come to this results when you do it from beginning.
Thanks desert dog even reloading for years and years there is always new and better ideas coming out and it’s always nice to learn something new to improve our hunting ability my making it more accurate where ever possible
Just found your channel, thanks for this, I am a rookie handloader that has hit the point where I am looking at mandrels, very comprehensive explanation. Subscribed to your channel!
Thank you very much for sharing this tip, I am always looking to make my hunting loads more accurate and consistent. Another well done video from you as always, 👍
This is how I do everything anymore. I deprime and clean and then resize. Station 1 in the Dillion 550 is the a carbide Sinclair mandrel setup. Even my bulk .223 has been amazing
Very well said on your explanation!! I use the mandrels on certain calibre setups i have that require it. sometimes a neck bushing die takes care of it. always aim for that 0.002” tension the lee collet neck dies(after full length sizing) got me in that ball park for a long time as a rookie reloader and not a bad way to go for someone new getting into it, but not quite as precise as the mandrel
Thanks for sharing your experience and your thoughts on neck expanding. Heck, what rifle shooter isn't interested in accurate ammo? I work hard at being an accurate shooter and I want every advantage to be one. Twenty First Century and Sinclair are both great companies and produce some of the best reloading regalia out there. I think there is a lot of wisdom in neck expanders to control tension and aid with concentricity. Thanks for the video!!!
I do the same as you for super accurate loads especially cast bullets. Another great option is the Lee Precision Collet Dies for those folks who want to skip a couple of steps. I have been reading manuals and handload/gun magazines for decades. No where do I ever recall neck tension articles. It is the most important of all variables. You may want to touch on annealing necks. As you stated when I sight on game I know I have done my part and eliminated all the variables. I know the end result.
Since I FL size all of my ammo (match and hunting), the Lee Collet dies would require a 2-step sizing process, making it just as many steps as using an expander mandrel (BTW, ALWAYS FL size hunting ammo). Also be mindful that Lee screwed up the collet dies by redesigning them in 2019 to flare the case mouths. This may make cast-bullet guys happy, but it basically made the Collet Dies unusable for really precise ammunition. Most serious loaders used the Lee Collet dies to prep brass for neck turning; but the new design ruins that. Annealing is an entirely different can-o-worms; either you do it 100% correct, or not at all. I feel that 90% of people who anneal are better off not doing it.
Thanks for your thoughts! I found that the expander ball on my full length sizing dies were catching the doughnut in the neck shoulder junction and caused the case to stretch when pulling back out. Removing the decaping pin with expander ball and using a expander mandrel solved that issue. I don't seat past the neck and into the case with this cartridge, so the doughnut isn't a huge issue for me.
Thanks. For this information, I been thinking about trying the le Wilson expander dies andan arbor press. I think that would help alot on the flyers. Thanks for your video,
I have an arbor press that I used for my last 2 years shooting F-class. Honestly, After I got my MEC Marksman press, I really didn't see any measurable differences compared to my K&M Arbor press. The Arbor press does have a nice feel. In the end, I think sizing causes way more run-out than seating and we overthink it. That goes full circle back to why I use mandrels.
Great presentation, very articulate. Thank you. Another selling point for the mandrel approach is that it would seem it would reduce stuck dies in cases. I've just added (or trying to :-) ) shouldered cases. I've been doing straight walls for a long time. ? - where can I find metrics on neck tension?
Great video! Thank you for explaining expander mandrel. I wanted to ask about crimping your bullets. Does crimping change anything with regard to neck tension?
Good info. And being in a place where the extra step & equipment, and the gains by using a mandrel might not suit me just yet, I'm trying to understand if using a carbide expander ball doesn't give a person like myself the middle-ground between the mandrel & stock expander ball. I believe I understand some of the drawbacks of the standard expander. And so I'm considering to get a Lee expander where the ball is floating and carbide to put into my sizing die, so that it doesn't perhaps stretch out the neck after the sizing. Have you done this, perhaps earlier in your experience before graduating to mandrels?
Really excellent video on mandrels. I want several others, but this one really explains more of how which I was lacking. My biggest question is how do you seat the bullets if your 2000th below bullet diam without digging into the bullet jacket. Do you lube with dry powder.? How much crimp after seating. Light, medium, or no crimp. My process very similar but using Lee Collett die after full length sizing. Lee does make mandrel that is 2 thousands below bullet diameter. You ever try
Hi just wondered what difference you get in neck diameter (outside) from after Fl-sizing (without mandrel) to after running the mandrel? My dies seam to overwork the brass. when I run my die without mandrel it sizes the neck to 0,015 less than after running the mandrel. seems to be excessive or? (260rem RCBS FL).
I assume you trim before chamfering only because you didn’t mention it as one of your steps is all… Thanks for the info on the 21st Century site; I had the same confusion. Sinclair is out of stock on their mandrel die, and the L.E. Wilson is expensive. I’ll check them out. It seems to me as someone just starting out in PRS, that the 2000ths below caliber turning arbor is the way to go, so in that case it would open up some necks and reduce others, all to give 2000ths under .308 correct? That means I don’t need to mess with a bushing die, and that brass selection is not as critical? I just can’t swing $200 for a complete set of the 21st Century mandrels per caliber so want to get close. Thanks again for the excellent overview. 👍
I'm a long time reloader for hunting but no expert as I go years in between loading depending on hunt. Is this mandrel expander a replacement and/or better than neck bushing dies? I'm just now discovering neck turning and not sure the exact process of whether I still run the brass through the neck bushing die after running them through this and turning them?
The owner at 21st century told me to get mandrels .002, .0025, .003 smaller than bullet diameter and not to worry about measuring outside diameter of loaded round because it’s not really how anyone should be measuring neck tension. He said to test loads with each mandrel size and see what shoots best. Other than for the magnums. He said to just use a mandrel .003 under bullet diameter. What are your thoughts? Also, do you think inside neck turning is necessary? Does not doing it negate the benefits of using a mandrel to set neck tension?
Curious, do you measure bullet diameter of a few bullets from a new box? Just to make sure that a 6.5 is measuring .264? Or a 257 is actually .257? Thanks for the vid!!!
I took and grinded down that expander ball so I could still decap and FL size with out moving the necks. Like this guy says. The manufacturer spec's are over the place
Being new to re-loading is like swimming with sharks. Am trying to work wit a 300 H&H Mag. I ordered an Adjustable Case Gauge and a Case Gauge Depth Micrometer and am unsure if I needed them? And then there is the Expander Die Body which requires a mandrel? And then there is the Belted Magnum Re-sizing Die & Collet. What do I really need?
🙏🏼 I’ve enjoyed many of your videos & even shared on FBook via posts to Caliber Groups I’m in. Recently I discovered that Lee been making “LEE PRECISION Neck Collet Dies” for most cartridges to be used after full length sizing. I wonder if you have any experiences with them and if so what are your opinions. Thanks for all your content. Aloha.
Since I FL size all of my ammo (match and hunting), the Lee Collet dies would require a 2-step sizing process, making it just as many steps as using an expander mandrel (BTW, ALWAYS FL size hunting ammo). I believe the mandrel works the brass less than running it through a FL die, then a neck die. Also be mindful that Lee screwed up the collet dies by redesigning them in 2019 to flare the case mouths. This may make cast-bullet guys happy, but it basically made the Collet Dies unusable for really precise ammunition. Most serious loaders only used the Lee Collet dies to prep brass for neck turning; but the new design ruins that.
Great video here. I also use 21st century expander mandrels on all of my cartridges for my PRS matches. Typically, I have heard of using these only for virgin brass. Are you using expander mandrels for all of your fired casings and virgin brass?
I have to ask what advantage this method has, if any, over using a sizer die that incorporates an interchangeable neck sizer bushing? It would seem that the extra step can be omitted in this way. I would have to check current pricing to see which is more cost effective, if in fact there is any difference to speak of. Thanks for the video as always. I really enjoy your reloading features.
I have found that I get better concentricity with expander mandrels than with bushing dies. My Sinclair concentricity gauge has been a real eye opener.
The goal is much better concentricity. Using only my Redding bushings dies, I was having concentricity issues. I was at a point where that was the only shortcoming of my ammunition. . The mandrels (especially running it through twice) brought many of my 1/2" loads to 1/4". Using the bushing die only (no ball), lot-to-lot variances in brass thickness, brass changing with age, and lack of neck uniformity would cause inconsistent neck tension. Basically, expander mandrels give you the benefits of neck turning, with needing to turn necks.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 I understand now. I have a few competition rifles with tight necks that I use a slightly different method to load for. I am going to try your method on my other rifles though, your results sound impressive!
@@hillbillyscholar8126 By tight necks, are you referring to tight chambering in the gun? This is a common issue with bushing dies and rifles with tight chambers, because they don't size all the way down to the base of the neck.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 The tight necks I mentioned have a specific diameter stamped on the barrel and need to be loaded with neck turned cases. Generally speaking I start the loading process by running the virgin brass over an expander mandrel similar to the one you use, the only difference being that the mandrel is the same diameter as the actual projectile. I then turn the case neck to provide the needed clearance around the case neck. I then check overall case length and trim if needed. The brass is then run through a neck sizing die with a bushing that will provide similar tension as you use after springback. I anneal when the cases need trimming thereafter. I generally get loose primer pockets before anything else goes south. Needless to say I am not the type who loads the same five cases at the bench like real IBS shooters, but this method is used by most of the shooters I know at Williamsport for 1000 yard benchrest. Sorry to bore you with a long reply but I think you can appreciate the info. Thanks for sharing by the way!
I am confused...Do you still full length size you brass shoulder bump 2 thou by still removing your decapping rod..I decap with a lee decapping die than full length all my brass shoulder bump 2 thou..Than I use a bushing die.
Yes, you deprime, then full length size it without the decamping rod in (bump shoulder) the neck will be squeezed down so then you use an expander mandrel to bring it up to what you want.
Good shooters know when they cause a flyer, and shoot enough groups to know their consistency. Ammo problems are detectable; ES's, SD's, velocity, case and BTO length, and concentricity are easily measured without looking at groups. When you have all those bases covered, you can tune seating depth and decide if you want to change powder and start over. Reloading 101.
When do you remove your resizing case lube? Doesn’t the lube affect the primer, powder and chamber case slippage? Creating false pressure signs and loss of accuracy?
You'll never know exactly how much neck tension they will provide until you try it on your particular brass. Those mandrel sizes seem great for hunting loads, but may be a little much for competition/target ammo.
In your steps to reloading you never mentioned trimming cases, or at least checking case length. Also I see you have a MEC. Gathering info now for a second press. Either the MEC or Co-Ax. What’s you thoughts about the MEC? ACM
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 Thank you for the quick reply! Just to clarify though do you trim before you resize? Thank you again for your willingness to teach.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 Deprime, tumble, resize body, resize case mouth (mandrel), trim, debur, chamfer, prime, powder, seat bullets. Hope I am not being too much of a pain in the butt. Thank you again
If you're expander ball is still in your sizing die, you don't use an expander mandrel. If you decide to remove your expander ball from your sizing die, you use a mandrel for neck tension.
if a case has been fired several times without being annealed...it will likely become "work hardened" which means it will have more "spring back". This may mean that a case may not hold a bullet after sizing... I experienced this on the occasional 270win case that hadn't been annealed, sized with Lee neck Collet die. After annealing, the work hardened spring back is removed...and the case is successfully sized with same process...to hold a bullet. I guess with neck expanding...if you don't anneal and have fired several times...you may need to change mandrel...to suit....I guess...
@@MrHf4l I use a Lee FCD for everything over 300 Win Mag recoil. I highly recommend doing that to prevent bullet set-back in the magazine. For cartridges like the 300WM/WSM and the 7RM, .002 neck tension is fine as long as the rifle isn't too light.
Tip: Take the expander ball and spin it in a electric hand drill and shave it down to approximately.300 thousands with a flat file, that way you can still de- prime and not touch the neck. As stated in your video dragging the expander ball through the neck just destroys accuracy. I do not use any expanders in my dies haven’t for years.
The goal is much better concentricity. Using only my Redding bushings dies, I was having concentricity issues. I was at a point where that was the only shortcoming of my ammunition. The mandrels (especially running it through twice) brought many of my 1/2" loads to 1/4". Using the bushing die only (no ball), lot-to-lot variances in brass thickness, brass changing with age, and lack of neck uniformity would cause inconsistent neck tension. Basically, expander mandrels give you the benefits of neck turning, with needing to turn necks. In fact, I stopped buying bushing dies because I don't need them anymore.
Why can't you just get a honed neck in your die or use a bushing and size you brass 0.001 or 0.002 and not bother expanding at all? If you squeeze the OD consistently and don't bother expanding at all is that not producing consistent neck tension w/o the extra step if the brass necks are turned?
If you use a bushing die only (without an expander ball or mandrel), you will get inconsistent neck tension based on slight inconsistencies in brass-wall thickness and neck concentricity (if you don't properly turn necks). The mandrels remove any inconsistencies from inside the neck, and improve concentricity. These days, the only competition shooters who turn necks are the guys running tight chambers. I don't turn necks because running an expander mandrel is way easier and does the same thing. If you do use bushing dies, the SAC bushing are far better than the Reading bushings. This of course, only applies to those of us who are meticulous reloaders, and is not really necessary to make decent hunting ammunition.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 Makes sense. My frustration is taking one of these new custom rifles to the range that come with 1/2 MOA guarantee with premium factory ammo such as Hornady Match, or ELD-X and sure enough I'm getting half or 1/4 minute groups, yet my meticulous handloads are taking forever to get less than MOA and I'm turning necks, sorting bullets, weighing each charge, etc., and we all know Hornady is not producing Lapua or Peterson quality brass. What brand mandrels do you recommend? I'm looking at a few
@@derekmcmurry I highly recommend the 21st Century Turning Arbors that were featured in this video. PRO TIP: When you use a mandrel, always run it through twice to eliminate inconsistencies with brass spring-back.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 I actually called them yesterday. I'm going to order from them. What do you do about the "donut?" I have some Lapua 6.5-284 brass twice fired now showing the donut
The problem isn’t the price of ammo it’s being able to find components. I searched for almost three months for primers. Nothing. I’ve had mom and pop gun stores tell me they weren’t due to get any until 2026. That’s LR primers anyways. I bit the bullet and found some on gun broker. Paid way to much but I needed them.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 wow ok. I bought some online but for a premium. I can’t find anything where I live at which is south east Texas. I check online multiple times a day at all the usual suspects Brownells Midway etc and nothing. I got some H4350 a few weeks ago from Brownells but no large rifle primers. I’m a truck driver and I drive all over I stop by gun shops from GA to Wisconsin and nothing. Again that large rifle primers. What store are you talking about?
@@a-a-ron4679 Turners, Bass Pro, Sportsman's Warehouse, and Scheels have had primers and powders for the last 6 months. I bought 8 pounds of CFE223 off the Hodgdon website last week.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 thank you sir. I check bass pro/cabelas everyday and I never see any large rifle primers. Small rifle yeah. I can find some at certain Sportsman warehouse but they won’t ship it to my door. I’ll definitely check out those others though. I’m good for now but would like to stick up on some more. Again thanks and your expander video is great info.
i switched to expander mandrels the middle of last year for 308w 6mm 220 swift AI. I also check the expansion with a forster neck tension gauge on every case before loading, and have found some case didn’t not expand to the correct tension on the neck tension gauge so those cases i anneal.
Thanks mate. One of the most informative videos on mandrels I’ve seen. I’ve ordered an APW mandrel for set and screwed out all expander balls from my dies. I use a Lee universal to decap. Only been reloading a couple years and love learning what will make things more consistent.
Best video I’ve found on explaining expanders from top to bottom . Thanks for taking the time . Even after tons of research I still had a few question which you answered .
This is a great channel just found you today 4-1-24
Thank you
Welcome.
Knowing that my hunting ammo is very accurate (sub MOA or sub 1/2 MOA is even better) is a tremendous confidence booster for me even though I have seldom taken game over 200 yds! Thanks for your perspective!
I'm still a rookie reloader working with the very basic equipment so I really appreciate any reloading videos that you do.
Desert Dog, as always, your straightforward, no BS explanations are just what I needed!
Thank you for enjoying my channel.
You know, even with shooting under 200 yards, I have found that inconsistent neck tension is one of the causes of those shot flyers that we all cuss so much because we "did everything right." While the lengths were all the same, the crimps were all the same, brass can be a weirdly inconsistent metal, so if you're not ensuring consistent neck tension, you're going to get flyers. Great video.
another professional reloading video. Same experience as mine. Right said, if someones expectations are 0,5 MOA or better, this is a very important info 👍 You save a lot of time and money to come to this results when you do it from beginning.
Thanks about time I found a video that made sense.😊
Excellent video, DD! Thank you for the thorough explanation. I totally agree with you-I want my bullet to go exactly where the crosshairs are aimed.
Thanks desert dog even reloading for years and years there is always new and better ideas coming out and it’s always nice to learn something new to improve our hunting ability my making it more accurate where ever possible
Just found your channel, thanks for this, I am a rookie handloader that has hit the point where I am looking at mandrels, very comprehensive explanation. Subscribed to your channel!
This video helped me understand more about expander mandrel as I seek to learn more about hand loading. Thinks
Thank you very much for sharing this tip, I am always looking to make my hunting loads more accurate and consistent. Another well done video from you as always, 👍
Very interesting and informative, thanks for posting!
Outstanding content as always.
This is how I do everything anymore. I deprime and clean and then resize. Station 1 in the Dillion 550 is the a carbide Sinclair mandrel setup. Even my bulk .223 has been amazing
Such a great channel! I wish I would’ve found your channel years ago!
Excellent video. Really well presented information. Thank you.
Great video and information. Well done.
Very informative! Thank you Desert Dog for clearefy this technical aspect!
I watched a few videos on the topic but it always left me wondering...
Wow that was the best information about this subject! Thank you!
Interesting! I never heard any criticism of expander balls before. You learn something new every day.
Very well said on your explanation!! I use the mandrels on certain calibre setups i have that require it. sometimes a neck bushing die takes care of it. always aim for that 0.002” tension
the lee collet neck dies(after full length sizing) got me in that ball park for a long time as a rookie reloader and not a bad way to go for someone new getting into it, but not quite as precise as the mandrel
Amazing video you have told me exactly what i have been asking now I know what I need to do
Thanks for sharing your experience and your thoughts on neck expanding. Heck, what rifle shooter isn't interested in accurate ammo? I work hard at being an accurate shooter and I want every advantage to be one. Twenty First Century and Sinclair are both great companies and produce some of the best reloading regalia out there. I think there is a lot of wisdom in neck expanders to control tension and aid with concentricity. Thanks for the video!!!
Thank you for a very informative video .. . You nailed it .
Most excellent video...thanks so much for sharing.
Very informational. Great video as usual
Thank you for clearing up some of my questions!
Terrific info. Thank you.
Great video and explanations
Awesome video!
Excellent explanation. Very much appreciated
Great Video on this side of reloading!
Thanks. The video is really helpful 😉
Great job bud!
Aim small, miss small.
Thanks for the great advice!
👍 thank you for sharing.
Thank you for the great explanation
I 100% agree in everthing!
I do the same as you for super accurate loads especially cast bullets. Another great option is the Lee Precision Collet Dies for those folks who want to skip a couple of steps. I have been reading manuals and handload/gun magazines for decades. No where do I ever recall neck tension articles. It is the most important of all variables. You may want to touch on annealing necks. As you stated when I sight on game I know I have done my part and eliminated all the variables. I know the end result.
Since I FL size all of my ammo (match and hunting), the Lee Collet dies would require a 2-step sizing process, making it just as many steps as using an expander mandrel (BTW, ALWAYS FL size hunting ammo). Also be mindful that Lee screwed up the collet dies by redesigning them in 2019 to flare the case mouths. This may make cast-bullet guys happy, but it basically made the Collet Dies unusable for really precise ammunition. Most serious loaders used the Lee Collet dies to prep brass for neck turning; but the new design ruins that. Annealing is an entirely different can-o-worms; either you do it 100% correct, or not at all. I feel that 90% of people who anneal are better off not doing it.
great job thats the way i load my ammo so i know what me and my rifle will do
Thanks for your thoughts! I found that the expander ball on my full length sizing dies were catching the doughnut in the neck shoulder junction and caused the case to stretch when pulling back out. Removing the decaping pin with expander ball and using a expander mandrel solved that issue. I don't seat past the neck and into the case with this cartridge, so the doughnut isn't a huge issue for me.
I have seen that many times. FYI, my donut issues first appeared when I switched to bushing dies, and went away when I stopped using them.
Thanks. For this information, I been thinking about trying the le Wilson expander dies andan arbor press. I think that would help alot on the flyers. Thanks for your video,
I have an arbor press that I used for my last 2 years shooting F-class. Honestly, After I got my MEC Marksman press, I really didn't see any measurable differences compared to my K&M Arbor press. The Arbor press does have a nice feel. In the end, I think sizing causes way more run-out than seating and we overthink it. That goes full circle back to why I use mandrels.
Great presentation, very articulate. Thank you. Another selling point for the mandrel approach is that it would seem it would reduce stuck dies in cases. I've just added (or trying to :-) ) shouldered cases. I've been doing straight walls for a long time.
? - where can I find metrics on neck tension?
Another great video, thank you Desert Dog. Which brand of full length sizing die do you recommend for 30-06?
Great video! Thank you for explaining expander mandrel. I wanted to ask about crimping your bullets. Does crimping change anything with regard to neck tension?
Thanks for sharing.
Very good video
Good info. And being in a place where the extra step & equipment, and the gains by using a mandrel might not suit me just yet, I'm trying to understand if using a carbide expander ball doesn't give a person like myself the middle-ground between the mandrel & stock expander ball. I believe I understand some of the drawbacks of the standard expander. And so I'm considering to get a Lee expander where the ball is floating and carbide to put into my sizing die, so that it doesn't perhaps stretch out the neck after the sizing. Have you done this, perhaps earlier in your experience before graduating to mandrels?
Exelent vídeo. Y use a similar tool for that sem way to reload. Thanks for share
Thanks DD, must say I’ve never used a separate decapper/sizer/expander. Great explanation of your reasoning for your process.
Is your FL sizing die do any tensioning to the neck or adjusting neck tension?
Really excellent video on mandrels. I want several others, but this one really explains more of how which I was lacking. My biggest question is how do you seat the bullets if your 2000th below bullet diam without digging into the bullet jacket. Do you lube with dry powder.?
How much crimp after seating. Light, medium, or no crimp.
My process very similar but using Lee Collett die after full length sizing. Lee does make mandrel that is 2 thousands below bullet diameter. You ever try
Hi just wondered what difference you get in neck diameter (outside) from after Fl-sizing (without mandrel) to after running the mandrel? My dies seam to overwork the brass. when I run my die without mandrel it sizes the neck to 0,015 less than after running the mandrel. seems to be excessive or? (260rem RCBS FL).
What if I cut the ball expander down in my lathe so it is 0 effect and still resize and de cap at same time. Plus add a mandrel die?
I have a full length RCBs match master set. Would I resize without a bushing and then finish with the expander mandrel?
Plan to start reloading 357 aig,we're neck tension is critical, what do you suggest?
I assume you trim before chamfering only because you didn’t mention it as one of your steps is all… Thanks for the info on the 21st Century site; I had the same confusion. Sinclair is out of stock on their mandrel die, and the L.E. Wilson is expensive. I’ll check them out.
It seems to me as someone just starting out in PRS, that the 2000ths below caliber turning arbor is the way to go, so in that case it would open up some necks and reduce others, all to give 2000ths under .308 correct? That means I don’t need to mess with a bushing die, and that brass selection is not as critical? I just can’t swing $200 for a complete set of the 21st Century mandrels per caliber so want to get close. Thanks again for the excellent overview. 👍
I'm a long time reloader for hunting but no expert as I go years in between loading depending on hunt. Is this mandrel expander a replacement and/or better than neck bushing dies? I'm just now discovering neck turning and not sure the exact process of whether I still run the brass through the neck bushing die after running them through this and turning them?
Thank you
The owner at 21st century told me to get mandrels .002, .0025, .003 smaller than bullet diameter and not to worry about measuring outside diameter of loaded round because it’s not really how anyone should be measuring neck tension.
He said to test loads with each mandrel size and see what shoots best. Other than for the magnums. He said to just use a mandrel .003 under bullet diameter.
What are your thoughts?
Also, do you think inside neck turning is necessary? Does not doing it negate the benefits of using a mandrel to set neck tension?
Curious, do you measure bullet diameter of a few bullets from a new box? Just to make sure that a 6.5 is measuring .264? Or a 257 is actually .257? Thanks for the vid!!!
informative and your opinion is certainly appreciated .....
I took and grinded down that expander ball so I could still decap and FL size with out moving the necks. Like this guy says. The manufacturer spec's are over the place
Being new to re-loading is like swimming with sharks. Am trying to work wit a 300 H&H Mag. I ordered an Adjustable Case Gauge and a Case Gauge Depth Micrometer and am unsure if I needed them? And then there is the Expander Die Body which requires a mandrel? And then there is the Belted Magnum Re-sizing Die & Collet. What do I really need?
🙏🏼 I’ve enjoyed many of your videos & even shared on FBook via posts to Caliber Groups I’m in.
Recently I discovered that Lee been making “LEE PRECISION Neck Collet Dies” for most cartridges to be used after full length sizing. I wonder if you have any experiences with them and if so what are your opinions. Thanks for all your content. Aloha.
Since I FL size all of my ammo (match and hunting), the Lee Collet dies would require a 2-step sizing process, making it just as many steps as using an expander mandrel (BTW, ALWAYS FL size hunting ammo). I believe the mandrel works the brass less than running it through a FL die, then a neck die. Also be mindful that Lee screwed up the collet dies by redesigning them in 2019 to flare the case mouths. This may make cast-bullet guys happy, but it basically made the Collet Dies unusable for really precise ammunition. Most serious loaders only used the Lee Collet dies to prep brass for neck turning; but the new design ruins that.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 amazing i didn’t realize the change in the LCND thanks for sharing that
Great as usually! Thanks for sharing your experience!
When do you trim the cases? Before or after mandrelling?
I trim after sizing, then chamfer, then run it through the mandrel.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 Have you ever noticed any case length change after that sequence? I mean length after trimming and length after “mandrelling”
@@user-he4lu9me6e The mandrel doesn't alter case length at all.
Great video here. I also use 21st century expander mandrels on all of my cartridges for my PRS matches. Typically, I have heard of using these only for virgin brass. Are you using expander mandrels for all of your fired casings and virgin brass?
Yes
Desert Dog, Do you turn necks?
How should you approach a jam load. How much power she back off is a real fun to be safe
Do you run a bushing die first then a mandrel?
Yes, you can do it that way. You can also remove the expander ball from a standard die and use a mandrel as a separate step.
Have you tested carbide mandrels?
I have to ask what advantage this method has, if any, over using a sizer die that incorporates an interchangeable neck sizer bushing? It would seem that the extra step can be omitted in this way. I would have to check current pricing to see which is more cost effective, if in fact there is any difference to speak of. Thanks for the video as always. I really enjoy your reloading features.
I have found that I get better concentricity with expander mandrels than with bushing dies. My Sinclair concentricity gauge has been a real eye opener.
The goal is much better concentricity. Using only my Redding bushings dies, I was having concentricity issues. I was at a point where that was the only shortcoming of my ammunition. . The mandrels (especially running it through twice) brought many of my 1/2" loads to 1/4". Using the bushing die only (no ball), lot-to-lot variances in brass thickness, brass changing with age, and lack of neck uniformity would cause inconsistent neck tension. Basically, expander mandrels give you the benefits of neck turning, with needing to turn necks.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 I understand now. I have a few competition rifles with tight necks that I use a slightly different method to load for. I am going to try your method on my other rifles though, your results sound impressive!
@@hillbillyscholar8126 By tight necks, are you referring to tight chambering in the gun? This is a common issue with bushing dies and rifles with tight chambers, because they don't size all the way down to the base of the neck.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 The tight necks I mentioned have a specific diameter stamped on the barrel and need to be loaded with neck turned cases. Generally speaking I start the loading process by running the virgin brass over an expander mandrel similar to the one you use, the only difference being that the mandrel is the same diameter as the actual projectile. I then turn the case neck to provide the needed clearance around the case neck. I then check overall case length and trim if needed. The brass is then run through a neck sizing die with a bushing that will provide similar tension as you use after springback. I anneal when the cases need trimming thereafter. I generally get loose primer pockets before anything else goes south. Needless to say I am not the type who loads the same five cases at the bench like real IBS shooters, but this method is used by most of the shooters I know at Williamsport for 1000 yard benchrest. Sorry to bore you with a long reply but I think you can appreciate the info. Thanks for sharing by the way!
I am confused...Do you still full length size you brass shoulder bump 2 thou by still removing your decapping rod..I decap with a lee decapping die than full length all my brass shoulder bump 2 thou..Than I use a bushing die.
Yes, you deprime, then full length size it without the decamping rod in (bump shoulder) the neck will be squeezed down so then you use an expander mandrel to bring it up to what you want.
Thoughts on the Wilson mandrel d dog?
I haven't used it.
A suggestion for a shooting accuracy topic is why is there usually a flyer in a group. Is it the ammo or rifle or shooter?
Good shooters know when they cause a flyer, and shoot enough groups to know their consistency. Ammo problems are detectable; ES's, SD's, velocity, case and BTO length, and concentricity are easily measured without looking at groups. When you have all those bases covered, you can tune seating depth and decide if you want to change powder and start over. Reloading 101.
When do you remove your resizing case lube?
Doesn’t the lube affect the primer, powder and chamber case slippage? Creating false pressure signs and loss of accuracy?
I don't put lube inside the case neck when using the 21st century mandrels. I completely wipe down the outside of the case after sizing.
Gotcha,
Love the channel and your advice is solid. Thank you for the great channel.
Desert Dog,
What's your opinion on the following mandrel sizes for Hunting loads?
7mm Mag- .2810
300 Wby- .3050
340 Wby- .3350
Thanks very much,
Dean
You'll never know exactly how much neck tension they will provide until you try it on your particular brass. Those mandrel sizes seem great for hunting loads, but may be a little much for competition/target ammo.
Solving consistent neck tension is 70% of the battle. Mandrels do that.
In your steps to reloading you never mentioned trimming cases, or at least checking case length.
Also I see you have a MEC.
Gathering info now for a second press.
Either the MEC or Co-Ax.
What’s you thoughts about the MEC?
ACM
New reloaders? Not. Been rel9ading for 40 years and just now heard about mandrels
May be a very rookie question, but when would you trim to length if needed? Thank you great videos very helpful.
Every reloading manual will have brass trim length for a cartridge. After every firing, measure your brass, and if it's over that length, trim it.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 Thank you for the quick reply! Just to clarify though do you trim before you resize? Thank you again for your willingness to teach.
@@allamerican1248 You resize first, because sizing can change brass length.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 Deprime, tumble, resize body, resize case mouth (mandrel), trim, debur, chamfer, prime, powder, seat bullets. Hope I am not being too much of a pain in the butt. Thank you again
At what stage do you anneal?
You anneal BEFORE you size.
Question? What happens if I size but don't use the expander mandrel and I just seat the bullet?
If you're expander ball is still in your sizing die, you don't use an expander mandrel. If you decide to remove your expander ball from your sizing die, you use a mandrel for neck tension.
My bullet is my expander mandrel.@@desertdogoutdoors1113
You decide what your Product control is.
if a case has been fired several times without being annealed...it will likely become "work hardened" which means it will have more "spring back".
This may mean that a case may not hold a bullet after sizing...
I experienced this on the occasional 270win case that hadn't been annealed, sized with Lee neck Collet die.
After annealing, the work hardened spring back is removed...and the case is successfully sized with same process...to hold a bullet.
I guess with neck expanding...if you don't anneal and have fired several times...you may need to change mandrel...to suit....I guess...
Bl9ke bloke 👌 superchill buckaroo korngrats yank
Is .002 enough for the magnum cartridges?
Do you also crimp your Magnum cartridges?
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 I do not.
@@MrHf4l I use a Lee FCD for everything over 300 Win Mag recoil. I highly recommend doing that to prevent bullet set-back in the magazine. For cartridges like the 300WM/WSM and the 7RM, .002 neck tension is fine as long as the rifle isn't too light.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 ok. Can you crimp a bullet that doesn’t have a crimp spot/line?
@@MrHf4l yes, with the Lee FCD.
No annealing step in your loading process? Talk about a game changer for consistent neck tension and massively reducing spring back.
What about annealing?
Anneal before you size if you're after extreme accuracy,. Or, don't do it at all if that doesn't matter to you.
Tip: Take the expander ball and spin it in a electric hand drill and shave it down to approximately.300 thousands with a flat file, that way you can still de- prime and not touch the neck. As stated in your video dragging the expander ball through the neck just destroys accuracy. I do not use any expanders in my dies haven’t for years.
Why not just use the Redding Bullet Die that allows you to use inserts that set your neck tension.
The goal is much better concentricity. Using only my Redding bushings dies, I was having concentricity issues. I was at a point where that was the only shortcoming of my ammunition. The mandrels (especially running it through twice) brought many of my 1/2" loads to 1/4". Using the bushing die only (no ball), lot-to-lot variances in brass thickness, brass changing with age, and lack of neck uniformity would cause inconsistent neck tension. Basically, expander mandrels give you the benefits of neck turning, with needing to turn necks. In fact, I stopped buying bushing dies because I don't need them anymore.
Do you lube the inside of the neck before using your expander mandrel?
No.
I do now. I collapsed a good piece of brass by not doing so. Use a dry lube.
there was no mention of the annealing of the brass in your process.
I use an Annealeez gen 3. Every firing after cleaning and before sizing.
ok but in your process u layed out it wasnt mentioned for the newbies
@@desertdogoutdoors1113
Why can't you just get a honed neck in your die or use a bushing and size you brass 0.001 or 0.002 and not bother expanding at all? If you squeeze the OD consistently and don't bother expanding at all is that not producing consistent neck tension w/o the extra step if the brass necks are turned?
If you use a bushing die only (without an expander ball or mandrel), you will get inconsistent neck tension based on slight inconsistencies in brass-wall thickness and neck concentricity (if you don't properly turn necks). The mandrels remove any inconsistencies from inside the neck, and improve concentricity. These days, the only competition shooters who turn necks are the guys running tight chambers. I don't turn necks because running an expander mandrel is way easier and does the same thing. If you do use bushing dies, the SAC bushing are far better than the Reading bushings. This of course, only applies to those of us who are meticulous reloaders, and is not really necessary to make decent hunting ammunition.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 Makes sense. My frustration is taking one of these new custom rifles to the range that come with 1/2 MOA guarantee with premium factory ammo such as Hornady Match, or ELD-X and sure enough I'm getting half or 1/4 minute groups, yet my meticulous handloads are taking forever to get less than MOA and I'm turning necks, sorting bullets, weighing each charge, etc., and we all know Hornady is not producing Lapua or Peterson quality brass. What brand mandrels do you recommend? I'm looking at a few
@@derekmcmurry I highly recommend the 21st Century Turning Arbors that were featured in this video. PRO TIP: When you use a mandrel, always run it through twice to eliminate inconsistencies with brass spring-back.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 I actually called them yesterday. I'm going to order from them. What do you do about the "donut?" I have some Lapua 6.5-284 brass twice fired now showing the donut
The problem isn’t the price of ammo it’s being able to find components. I searched for almost three months for primers. Nothing. I’ve had mom and pop gun stores tell me they weren’t due to get any until 2026. That’s LR primers anyways. I bit the bullet and found some on gun broker. Paid way to much but I needed them.
All of my local stores are full of powder and primers. I just ordered primers and 16lbs of Varget online. the shortage is over for now.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 wow ok. I bought some online but for a premium. I can’t find anything where I live at which is south east Texas. I check online multiple times a day at all the usual suspects Brownells Midway etc and nothing. I got some H4350 a few weeks ago from Brownells but no large rifle primers. I’m a truck driver and I drive all over I stop by gun shops from GA to Wisconsin and nothing. Again that large rifle primers. What store are you talking about?
@@a-a-ron4679 Turners, Bass Pro, Sportsman's Warehouse, and Scheels have had primers and powders for the last 6 months. I bought 8 pounds of CFE223 off the Hodgdon website last week.
@@desertdogoutdoors1113 thank you sir. I check bass pro/cabelas everyday and I never see any large rifle primers. Small rifle yeah. I can find some at certain Sportsman warehouse but they won’t ship it to my door. I’ll definitely check out those others though. I’m good for now but would like to stick up on some more. Again thanks and your expander video is great info.
i switched to expander mandrels the middle of last year for 308w 6mm 220 swift AI.
I also check the expansion with a forster neck tension gauge on every case before loading, and have found some case didn’t not expand to the correct tension on the neck tension gauge so those cases i anneal.
I also anneal. But try running your cases through the mandrel twice; it REALLY makes neck tension consistent.
Excellent!!