When you said "I bet if you took that ring off he'd go on a mission" I got full-body chills. Thank you both for sharing your stories. I am one of the ones that lied to be sealed. We didn't want to be honest because we already planned a whole damn wedding. It wasn't worth it. In hindsight, I hated my wedding & it was a horrible experience for our non-Mormon family, which is every single person on both sides of our family.
I left the church a year and a half ago, and had been trying to figure things out on my own, thinking my family would accept my leaving more knowing that I didn’t frequent “anti-Mormon” sources. I had so many problems with the church that I didn’t know were shared by so many! I recently started listening to Mormon stories. THANK YOU! I’m not alone anymore. The honesty and love felt here is more than I ever felt in the church, love that was tainted by guilt, needed for blessings, pats on the back; just plain, unadulterated love, as it should be, with nothing to gain or lose. Just me being able to write this is such a breakthrough for me. I thought I could do it alone, but it’s so much better not. As I listen I continue to think “no stone unturned” as it should be.
Really great conversation! I would love to see you do a conversation with Linda’s dad. Sounds like he walked a very difficult path to maintain a “normal family life” while his family participated in a high demand religion he did not agree with. I can’t imagine being alienated from my daughter and then my granddaughter because of ultimately a religious organization’s dishonesty and control of its members.
New listener (havent attended a LDS church or lived a LDS life since I was about 19, 37 now), just finished listening to all the Young family episodes. Now listening to all this. And just crying at the thought of missing my baby sisters (shes 13 years younger than me) wedding. Sitting outside and thinking im not a good enough person to be able to be there. I even had to use the restroom while there, and walking in the front doors (you know because you can go in the foyer) thinking im not even a good enough person do walk through the foyer doors and feeling all the eyes on me thinking are they judging me? I have been a post mormon for half my life and I still feel that "programming" with in me and this was only 2 or 3 years ago. and the conversation I JUST had this morning with my mom (active), that would make this comment even LONGER! I wish I had this podcast years ago! Thank you for sharing these stories.
It's super hard in Utah to integrate into friend groups as a kid if you aren't Mormon. The kids always have this goal of trying to get you to go to church. The parents are worried that your kid will say something or do something to influence their kid to leave the church. And the kids that go to the same church and school are so tightly bonded that it's really hard for non-Mormons to break into the group. After leaving the church, this was really my only concern, will my kids have friends?
Education was very important in my home as well as my dad’s home growing up. We were expected to go to college. My grandfather insisted all his kids, boys and girls, get a college education. And my parents were TBM. My grandparents were not. But education was a must!
My dad was Scoutmaster and the boys were allowed to raise a TON of money for high adventure. They went to Lake Powell for 8 days living on a houseboat and having a waterskiing boat, while the girls are back in Utah learning to knit covers for hangers. As we all know, it is critical that your hangers are not bare, it is so important to knit each one of them a little hanger shaped sweater. I was livid every second of that knitting lesson, and it has been 35 years.
Relating to your story so much with marriage! My husband and I got pregnant while dating. We found out right before Christmas so we had a quick private marriage with just our immediate family, so that we could have a wedding reception before I started showing. I eventually took my endowments out by myself, and as I was going through, everyone kept asking, "Oh are you going on a mission?" I said, "Nope, just going through by myself!" I was never accepted in any friendship circles, no matter how hard I tried to make friends, because my husband was never active, and I was viewed as a single mom going to church with my kids by myself every Sunday. The shame is very strong in the Mormon church. Thank you for sharing your story so publicly! It helps everyone when we share our stories, so we know we're not alone. ❤
Been watching these out of curiosity, and everytime I hear the payout is you get to live with your family forever, I keep thinking , "and that's a good thing?" I mean I love my family, but I don't think I want to spend eternity with them....
33:15 My experience was that I clung to god as my father because my ‘earthly’ father was horrible to us. I would often feel longing to see god again but because I just wanted a father figure in my life
"Imagine not seeing your own child/children getting married" I don't have to imagine, I lived it. With my only daughter.😞 I know I'm late to the game on this podcast, but it's hitting hard every time John this. 😥
I will never officially resign ... they will never have the satisfaction of ever knowing about me or hearing from me ever again ... To each their own, but that's the best for me.
I keep meaning to point out that I personally really love Kara and the additional perspective she brings. She’’s very fun and intelligent. Thanks for having her!
I really enjoyed this episode. I could relate a little bit with the situation of being the one wanting to go to the temple, praying, reading and all that. When I look back I feel bad for wanting and expecting my husband to be like certain brother in our ward. I remember feeling down because we were not the perfect mormón couple. I'm so relieved and happy now that I get to love my husband for who is and not who he is SUPPOSED to be. Other thing that got my attention was the patriarchal blessing thing. I waited untill I was 18 because then I would be an adult in my country. I remember feeling so disappointed after receiving it. I felt guilty for the disappoinment, but I couldn't help it, my blessing didn't include a marriage in the temple or kids. I thought I would never get married and felt so sad. My blessing talked a lot about missionary work and all that, so I took that as I needed to serve a mission, so I did it. I enjoyed my mission and one of the good things about that is that I met my husband there. At least I got that after giving 18 months of my life to this organization. Sad back then I thought God blessed me with a husband because I served him. Maybe? Maybe not?
What a concept! The father is a parent too! Bravo! So glad this family had the benefit of having this modeled for them and to have the benefit of the different parenting styles and expressions of love; regardless of accepted gender roles
Linda I think it's totally valid you stood up to your dad. And even set the boundary of not seeing him for awhile. Whether he was "right" or not, he doesn't get to force you to believe what he wants you to. Please have some compassion for yourself and your own grief and pain. Sending love 💕
@2:27:19 Very valuable advice here. My grandparents who left the church long ago (80s?) and proceeded to become heavy-handed bible-thumping evangelicals. Telling my parents "You are going to hell. You are in a cult. You believe in a different Jesus." The backfire effect was real. Sadly we only really spent Christmas and Thanksgiving together. I feel like I got robbed from having a closer relationship with them.
The unaddressed pain of wondering & never knowing “what could have” is so very difficult. As someone who knows evangelicals very well, you very likely never would of had a “close” relationship with them unless you converted. And even then, nothing guaranteed. No better, and worse in some ways, than Mormons, only because there’s so many more of them & society at large is far more forgiving of many of their 🦇💩crazy behaviors. They likely would have used you as a pawn, a Trojan horse for the home of your parents.
Blessing aren’t a joke. I had things said that weren’t generic and not fortune telling. Things extremely unique to my life years later. My kids are all raised.
I really like this particular podcast and I have started watching others with a keen interest in learning about the path not chosen. I'm really connecting here with Linda because as a fellow CSU Ram, I lived with other LDS people and became drawn by their religion and lifestyle, mainly in Fort Collins, CO. I have had many experiences with LDS people over the years and the vast majority of LDS people I have met have been good to me to the point where I strongly believed that I could say I have not met a Mormon I didn't like. Many of them took time to invest in me and were kind and supportive. One man tried to teach me how to drive a standard transmission vehicle. One LDS man introduced me to his girlfriend who he was going to marry and I was genuinely interested in going to his ward because I was alone( even to this day at 48, never married) and wanted to meet a lovely woman like her to marry. That night my pastor showed up unexpectedly at my apartment while they were with me and took that as a sign to not go anymore. My friend invited me to his reception in Denver at a hall to celebrate with his wife. I decided to go but I obviously wanted to go to the ceremony and was genuinely disappointed I was not allowed to attend. As a good friend I still supported his decision to go to the reception, but felt very alienated because I did not relate to anyone there except the couple. I understood later as I began to research and understood about eternal unions and baptisms for the dead. I compared their beliefs and took time to read the book of Mormon and compare the Bible in the King James Version. I learned that the book of Mormon contradicts many of the scriptures of the Bible and Jesus Christ himself said that in Matthew 22:30 that no one will be married nor given in marriage. I don't blame a Mormon to be honest. They're mostly good people and many of them want to please God and do the right thing. Becoming a god, living happily ever after with a beautiful decent clean woman of mostly your choosing has its appeal. I pay my tithes, I have done a mission, I still attend my church and am involved in it so I could probably fit in. I just know it's not the truth. If the truth didn't matter and I could choose another religion, they would probably be it. I'm still a single man, saving myself for a woman for marriage and knowing it's too late to go back there because I would try to find out where I would fit in a church where most LDS people are already married at my age. Seeing things from Linda's father's perspective I can understand how one can become bitter within the church because something wasn't right. When she spoke about her father being harsh with her on the day of a certain wedding, I knew right off the bat he was trying to protect his wife, her mom, because it meant so much to them and her comment would do nothing to comfort her. I just want to end my commentary by saying it isn't fair to judge someone. You have this one life to explore, discover, and be who you need to be while to find the truth. Once you find it, don't let it go for anything. You learn something from everything, even what NOT to do. This last sentence is for Linda Clyde. Linda thanks for sharing your story. IF you ever want to share your CSU experiences I would love to hear from you about them. I wouldn't trade them for anything. God bless.
I would suggest opening up to the possibility that the "truth" as you put it may include other connections with the divine that are not necessary based only within the bible or other written words by man. Best of luck in your journey man. Thanks for your comment.
How Linda describes her loss of identity is exactly what I have been going through this year. It's intense. But faith crisis and identity crisis are a hard combo.
1:30:20 the “I did do some tea” comment is a great representation of milieu control. Who asks another person if it’s alright to drink tea? Someone who feels it is a threat to their social capital and reputation if they are perceived to be sinners.
As a non Mormon, these interviews (reminiscent of documentaries I've seen on N. Korea or Saudi Arabia) are showing me how difficult it is to undo existential programming, and how easy it is to program legions of people - even when the proposed beliefs are patently impossible / unreasonable. Now, when I think of talking to my Republican father, or fundamentalist Christian loved-ones, it's now clear to me how futile it is to try to debate ideas. Then, when I think of the current political rifts in America... modern religions like MAGA, Tea Party, ANTIFA, right, left etc. ... I think we have to admit that those chasms are probably too wide and entrenched to be dissolved by any normal type of discourse. To me, this is scary, but at least it's realistic.
26:26 It's interesting how the church has surprisingly explicit ways of revealing people's personal worthiness or unworthiness through its ordinances. Anyone can say that people aren't supposed to judge all they want but ordinances like the sacrament and a temple sealing, or receiving the endowment and serving a mission for men, are all public displays of worthiness. They just are! And because they are, fellow members can't help _but_ make judgements on individuals who don't participate in these things at a time when they should be. Everyone knows the commandments and everyone knows what kinds of sins it would take to deem someone unworthy. It is a well crafted system to not only induce judgement out of the members onto an individual, but to also incentivize obedience in everyone so as to avoid the risk of making a private issue public.
@2:08:28 and Birth order in your own Mormon family prevents you from attending your older sibling's temple weddings but Tithe paying invited Mormon friends can attend the wedding ... Being the youngest I missed out on all of their weddings and had to wait outside the Temple.
I love you, John, and I agree with you, but I have to call you out for taking every opportunity to point out “cultish” aspects of the Mormon church but call it “high demand religion” behaviour. It’s 100% a cult and you know it, but I understand it’s bad PR to say it so bluntly. Please don’t change a thing.
ha! 1:04:00 That story of running into an old friend in Blockbuster is pretty funny. Her assuming they had one older and then being told that this one is the oldest, had to be confusing to her BUT i guarantee, she went away thinking, "Oh they had to get married but probably suffered a miscarriage."
The church has really lost a special person in Linda!! They should be devastated to have lost her. She is so real, humble and compassionate. Good for you Linda! Don't ever go back! It's made up and you don't need it to be happy and raise a good family.
For me I always think of the St. George Temple as being the last one built by Brigham Young. As I remember it, the architect added a tower to the structure that Brigham Young did not like and wanted it removed but was not. After Brigham died there was a storm that destroyed the tower. According to Mormon myth he had it struck down from Heaven. I think of that and my cousins who lived across the street
To be fair to people who may still suspect someone HAD to get married or that a woman trapped a man into marriage he did not want, a LOT of women have at least 1 miscarriage before a live birth. That gives some of them and their parents a natural shield to pretend people were wrong to have gossiped they HAD to get married due to unplanned pregnancy. People still should not be shaming others for sex before marriage, but I personally know for a fact that quite a few men and women when older confided to me the gossip about them or their child or their parents had been true, but there were miscarriages. Because back in the day to be pregnant outside of marriage was actually a social shunning with getting kicked out of jobs, homes, school, churches. Serious stuff. So I understand there may have been accurate reasons to always suspect a couple had to be married, AND I understand why people would continue to lie when they know they HAD been pregnant but then quietly miscarried.
I can relate a lot to Linda's experience. People say the worst things to inactive people that are trying to come back to church. They do kind of act like your the new guy at the company too. That arrogance that they have all the answers but it's ok they will teach you. They need to create some training classes on things to say and things not to say to inactives returning to church. Of course, I would tell the inactives to not bother, its all lies and you will get nothing from it in the end.
Church should be joyous, humbling and inspiring. The stone-throwers need to take a seat and listen to the gospel because they did not get the message yet. The church experience should have the sentiment of the return of the prodigal son story where everyone is celebrating the individual returning by providing the best of the best because they are happy that the individual has chosen to come. Everyone should be in a genuine celebratory mode. No judgements. I am sorry for your experience. It did not have to be that way.
John, you are a good person and honesty and accuracy is important to you. Please clarify members can choose to have a civil wedding so nonmember parents and relatives can attend and celebrate. Many religions have wedding ceremonies. Being sealed in the temple is a religious ritual. We need to bifurcate weddings from sealings.
The policy was changed during Covid. In the US, before Covid, you could not have a civil ceremony and then be sealed in the temple without waiting one year. My grandparents sat outside my parents’ wedding, and my dad sat outside my wedding.
Funny in the so called blessing told her she was in the tribe of Ephraim...obviously the gentleman has not read the book of reverlation because Ephraim along with the tribe of Dan does not go to heaven ..they are so wishy-washy anything goes.. not straight in the faith..(bringing paganism into their faith)..strange that represents the missionaries..
What other church in the whole frickin' world holds mandatory tithing settlements at thr end of every yr and expects members to bring in their tax forms for review?
@@kathyclark8274 it’s not mandatory, nor do you need to prove anything with tax returns. It’s solely a time to meet with the bishop, review any and all donations of record and a chance to receive documentation to use when you file your taxes.
As a non-believer, who has a good mormon friend, as far as i can tell because they are tought so. They hear from a early state of childhood that if they do something sinfull they are damaged an less worthy and the bishop will help them "fix" themself if they had done something "wrong" and as folowing as they are, I really mean this in a non offensive way, they repent in the thought of wanting to get fixed.
@@hadeskilch3735 how very sad that they don’t know they can go straight to Jesus and repent build the relationship there. A priest Bishop extra is human too it’s so strange to go to another person to wash your sins
You never get past your past in the Mormon church. You'll always be the couple that didn't get married in the temple. You'll always be the guy that didn't go on a mission. Mormonisim is a judging religion. You are taught to constantly evaluate your standing with god with quickly leads to comparisons with those around you. "I know I'm a better Mormon than so-and-so" The whole thing is toxic.
This is exactly right. There are soooo many levels of judgement and perceived worthiness in mormon culture. Importantly, many of the things members judge each other on are not things that one can just study harder, pray harder, or strengthen one's personal beliefs to overcome. They are as permanent as if they were your skin color (another LDS issue that shares some similarities in the past). Doctrine aside, at some point a lot of members have to decide if they want to go through their LDS life always being viewed or pitied as a second class citizen or not. Some choose to stay and accept their new station in LDS life, some choose self-respect, self-honesty, and the opportunity for unlimited personal growth and choose to leave. What's especially sad is when some members let their own positive views of others be suppressed or negatively influenced by the real or perceived judgement of their peers, family, or church officials.
@@Dave-zx2im I find it humorous, all this talk about “Mormon culture” depending on location that “culture” is different. So to judge the entire church based on your experience with in a culture developed independent from what the church actually teaches is just sad. Sad, that so many are trapped experiencing similar drifts from pure doctrine. I have never experienced the things every one here have shared with in the church. The “shame culture” has never taken root in the various places I’ve lived. And when it does shine it’s ugly head, it’s baseless. I have always been taught the church is just a tool, a resource we can utilize, or not, as we navigate our way thru our individual covenant path. Yes, there are surely vital actions that every one must take at some point along that journey. The church didn’t make that up, a loving Heavenly Father did, to which Christ taught and paved his path, a perfect path that I’f we attempt to follow might not get lost in the shuffle. History has proven that it doesn’t take long to pervert heavenly guidance. One example is with the Jews forgetting their very purpose, getting lost bubble they create to protect themselves. Many “Mormons” have taken similar paths to protect themselves, but in doing so made it easy for the adversary to deceive everyone.
It does sound toxic. The mindset of going to church should be to commune with God and not to climb the pyramid of worthiness. God forgives and forgets and one is worthy just because they were made by God.
The shame that is put on its congregants is so disheartening. It should be the focus of a congregation to welcome and to encourage everyone to " come as you are" and we will not judge you but rather rejoice in your desire to worship.
As a non Mormon why is it so important for Morgan’s to baptize the dead? Surely these dead people can’t go to the “best” heaven since they were not sealed in the temple? Why even bother baptizing them? Is there some lesser heaven where all the “not quite good enough souls hang out”? Who made up all these rules and regulations about heaven? Jesus spoke of heaven but he never spoke of it being segregated.
Supposedly each temple ordinance is a gift that a dead nonmember can either choose to accept or not accept. If the dead nonmember never got married/ the info is too incomplete then maybe that sucks as far as getting into the highest heaven. I think that the Millennial time period after the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is supposed to be when everyone dead and/or alive finally gets sorted into their preferred/tenable eternal existence.
@@maam-yj8ph actually no, the millennium is where we all live in one place and God lives with us. we will still continue to do temple work like baptisms and sealings. So all who have not been able to in this life will get that chance. After the millennium is where we all get sorted into different places based on obedience and what not.
It is important to know the role of Satan and when you leave a window open he will enter your soul and manipulate you slowly to your destruction. Satan spends more time with you than the holy ghost. Speaking on the temple I have realized that heaven has left the living to make decisions and much more detail but this is not a place to speak of.
I find it odd she grew up in the church and got sealed after she was married but somehow thought/thinks that she wouldn't go to heaven if she wasn't sealed in the temple. That's actually patently false in that the Mormons don't teach that. This is in addition to my personal perspective that there are no gods and no heaven anyway, but I still feel people should be accurate in their statements especially when they're criticizing someone else. Edit: sorry, but I've got to call bullshit. I highly doubt anyone would have to pay years of "back tithing". Aside from the obvious impracticality of that, the bishop only asks, "are you a full tithe payer". They don't verify anything against paystubs or anything even approaching that. Also, nobody checks your underwear. What a ludicrous suggestion. Edit 2: it's not in any way off-script for Mormon women/moms to go to college. The Mormons highly value higher education - for both sexes.
"I find it odd she grew up in the church and got sealed after she was married but somehow thought/thinks that she wouldn't go to heaven if she wasn't sealed in the temple." That's actually a very commonly held belief and 100% our real doctrine ... without temple marriage, even if married and active, no "heaven", or more precise, no "celestial kingdom" without being sealed in the temple. To understand, you need to learn about our beliefs in a graduated / levels of heaven. The "highest degree" of "eternal glory" cannot be obtained without being sealed for married couples of members. A person can go to the "celestial kingdom" if they never get married on their own ... but for a couple that gets married, and they are members of the "church", and don't get sealed = no "celestial kingdom". You say that mormons don't teach that ... I taught that to Investigators on my mission ... just an example ... it very much is our doctrine. "I highly doubt anyone would have to pay years of "back tithing" Also a very true thing. It depends how it is handled on a case by case basis, but a member can be made to pay back tithing in order to receive a temple recommend. I have personally heard of this happening more than once. It can be used as a "carrot in front of the horse" source of motivation for "priesthood" men. The examples of this happening are reserved for men who are older, RMs, have a family, and were temple married ... it is seen as a way to "get right with the Lord" ... of course a youth or single mother would never be asked to do so ... but in the right situation, I have heard of this happening ... "They don't verify anything against paystubs or anything even approaching that" Also can be true. Employees for the "Church Education System", for example, have their income statements sent to their Bishops. Their Bishops then tell the individual how much tithing they are going to pay. So if you work for the "church", you forfeit any rights to privacy ... "he Mormons highly value higher education - for both sexes." Lastly, I very much agree. We in fact value education, for women especially, more than any other people I have ever been in contact with in my life. My great great grandmother was one of the first female graduates of the U ... my own mother has a Master's ... all my aunts went to college, as did nearly all my cousins ... multi-generational lds Utah family here, and education for women has always been right at the top running parallel to marriage and kids ... just one example, but education is important.
When you said "I bet if you took that ring off he'd go on a mission" I got full-body chills. Thank you both for sharing your stories. I am one of the ones that lied to be sealed. We didn't want to be honest because we already planned a whole damn wedding. It wasn't worth it. In hindsight, I hated my wedding & it was a horrible experience for our non-Mormon family, which is every single person on both sides of our family.
I left the church a year and a half ago, and had been trying to figure things out on my own, thinking my family would accept my leaving more knowing that I didn’t frequent “anti-Mormon” sources. I had so many problems with the church that I didn’t know were shared by so many! I recently started listening to Mormon stories. THANK YOU! I’m not alone anymore. The honesty and love felt here is more than I ever felt in the church, love that was tainted by guilt, needed for blessings, pats on the back; just plain, unadulterated love, as it should be, with nothing to gain or lose.
Just me being able to write this is such a breakthrough for me. I thought I could do it alone, but it’s so much better not.
As I listen I continue to think “no stone unturned” as it should be.
Hey Ryan. Glad you saw yourself out. If you have questions or feel need to discuss feel free to hit me up.
Really great conversation! I would love to see you do a conversation with Linda’s dad. Sounds like he walked a very difficult path to maintain a “normal family life” while his family participated in a high demand religion he did not agree with. I can’t imagine being alienated from my daughter and then my granddaughter because of ultimately a religious organization’s dishonesty and control of its members.
New listener (havent attended a LDS church or lived a LDS life since I was about 19, 37 now), just finished listening to all the Young family episodes. Now listening to all this. And just crying at the thought of missing my baby sisters (shes 13 years younger than me) wedding. Sitting outside and thinking im not a good enough person to be able to be there. I even had to use the restroom while there, and walking in the front doors (you know because you can go in the foyer) thinking im not even a good enough person do walk through the foyer doors and feeling all the eyes on me thinking are they judging me? I have been a post mormon for half my life and I still feel that "programming" with in me and this was only 2 or 3 years ago. and the conversation I JUST had this morning with my mom (active), that would make this comment even LONGER! I wish I had this podcast years ago! Thank you for sharing these stories.
It's super hard in Utah to integrate into friend groups as a kid if you aren't Mormon. The kids always have this goal of trying to get you to go to church. The parents are worried that your kid will say something or do something to influence their kid to leave the church. And the kids that go to the same church and school are so tightly bonded that it's really hard for non-Mormons to break into the group. After leaving the church, this was really my only concern, will my kids have friends?
Education was very important in my home as well as my dad’s home growing up. We were expected to go to college. My grandfather insisted all his kids, boys and girls, get a college education. And my parents were TBM. My grandparents were not. But education was a must!
My dad was Scoutmaster and the boys were allowed to raise a TON of money for high adventure. They went to Lake Powell for 8 days living on a houseboat and having a waterskiing boat, while the girls are back in Utah learning to knit covers for hangers. As we all know, it is critical that your hangers are not bare, it is so important to knit each one of them a little hanger shaped sweater. I was livid every second of that knitting lesson, and it has been 35 years.
I’m so sorry Anne!
Yeah. The boys would do super fun stuff and we'd bake cookies and take them to the boys. 😡😳😂
I totally forgot about knitting those damn hangers.
@@KitKat-gw4rh absolutely. Always on display for all the males.
The majority of my time in scouts (when not in the ward building) was shooting guns, not gonna lie.
Relating to your story so much with marriage! My husband and I got pregnant while dating. We found out right before Christmas so we had a quick private marriage with just our immediate family, so that we could have a wedding reception before I started showing. I eventually took my endowments out by myself, and as I was going through, everyone kept asking, "Oh are you going on a mission?" I said, "Nope, just going through by myself!" I was never accepted in any friendship circles, no matter how hard I tried to make friends, because my husband was never active, and I was viewed as a single mom going to church with my kids by myself every Sunday. The shame is very strong in the Mormon church. Thank you for sharing your story so publicly! It helps everyone when we share our stories, so we know we're not alone. ❤
Been watching these out of curiosity, and everytime I hear the payout is you get to live with your family forever, I keep thinking , "and that's a good thing?"
I mean I love my family, but I don't think I want to spend eternity with them....
Love hearing from teens. This rising generation will figure it out!! They are bright, loving, less judgemental, inquisitive and so less naive!!
When people ask inappropriate questions, respond by smiling and saying: why do you ask???
I use: "I beg your pardon?"
One can also feign deafness, LOL!
My friend taught me the "Why do you ask" line. It is a question. A direct question. Often they are then dumb founded and can give no good reason.
Unfortunately that’s not how indoctrinated Mormons children would respond to a bishop or elder. But that sure would be awesome if they did.
If only children thought like that…
33:15
My experience was that I clung to god as my father because my ‘earthly’ father was horrible to us. I would often feel longing to see god again but because I just wanted a father figure in my life
I am absolutely right there with you. I completely understand ❤
"Imagine not seeing your own child/children getting married"
I don't have to imagine, I lived it. With my only daughter.😞
I know I'm late to the game on this podcast, but it's hitting hard every time John this. 😥
Carah is a great addition to the podcast. She can take over any time in my opinion.
Ok. 😂👌🏻
I will never officially resign ... they will never have the satisfaction of ever knowing about me or hearing from me ever again ... To each their own, but that's the best for me.
I keep meaning to point out that I personally really love Kara and the additional perspective she brings. She’’s very fun and intelligent. Thanks for having her!
I really resonate with all these ladies talked about with being unable to conform and the pain and dissonance that causes
I really enjoyed this episode. I could relate a little bit with the situation of being the one wanting to go to the temple, praying, reading and all that. When I look back I feel bad for wanting and expecting my husband to be like certain brother in our ward. I remember feeling down because we were not the perfect mormón couple. I'm so relieved and happy now that I get to love my husband for who is and not who he is SUPPOSED to be. Other thing that got my attention was the patriarchal blessing thing. I waited untill I was 18 because then I would be an adult in my country. I remember feeling so disappointed after receiving it. I felt guilty for the disappoinment, but I couldn't help it, my blessing didn't include a marriage in the temple or kids. I thought I would never get married and felt so sad. My blessing talked a lot about missionary work and all that, so I took that as I needed to serve a mission, so I did it. I enjoyed my mission and one of the good things about that is that I met my husband there. At least I got that after giving 18 months of my life to this organization. Sad back then I thought God blessed me with a husband because I served him. Maybe? Maybe not?
What a concept! The father is a parent too! Bravo! So glad this family had the benefit of having this modeled for them and to have the benefit of the different parenting styles and expressions of love; regardless of accepted gender roles
Linda I think it's totally valid you stood up to your dad. And even set the boundary of not seeing him for awhile. Whether he was "right" or not, he doesn't get to force you to believe what he wants you to. Please have some compassion for yourself and your own grief and pain. Sending love 💕
@2:27:19 Very valuable advice here. My grandparents who left the church long ago (80s?) and proceeded to become heavy-handed bible-thumping evangelicals. Telling my parents "You are going to hell. You are in a cult. You believe in a different Jesus." The backfire effect was real. Sadly we only really spent Christmas and Thanksgiving together. I feel like I got robbed from having a closer relationship with them.
The unaddressed pain of wondering & never knowing “what could have” is so very difficult. As someone who knows evangelicals very well, you very likely never would of had a “close” relationship with them unless you converted. And even then, nothing guaranteed. No better, and worse in some ways, than Mormons, only because there’s so many more of them & society at large is far more forgiving of many of their 🦇💩crazy behaviors. They likely would have used you as a pawn, a Trojan horse for the home of your parents.
Blessing aren’t a joke. I had things said that weren’t generic and not fortune telling. Things extremely unique to my life years later. My kids are all raised.
I really like this particular podcast and I have started watching others with a keen interest in learning about the path not chosen. I'm really connecting here with Linda because as a fellow CSU Ram, I lived with other LDS people and became drawn by their religion and lifestyle, mainly in Fort Collins, CO. I have had many experiences with LDS people over the years and the vast majority of LDS people I have met have been good to me to the point where I strongly believed that I could say I have not met a Mormon I didn't like. Many of them took time to invest in me and were kind and supportive. One man tried to teach me how to drive a standard transmission vehicle. One LDS man introduced me to his girlfriend who he was going to marry and I was genuinely interested in going to his ward because I was alone( even to this day at 48, never married) and wanted to meet a lovely woman like her to marry. That night my pastor showed up unexpectedly at my apartment while they were with me and took that as a sign to not go anymore. My friend invited me to his reception in Denver at a hall to celebrate with his wife. I decided to go but I obviously wanted to go to the ceremony and was genuinely disappointed I was not allowed to attend. As a good friend I still supported his decision to go to the reception, but felt very alienated because I did not relate to anyone there except the couple. I understood later as I began to research and understood about eternal unions and baptisms for the dead. I compared their beliefs and took time to read the book of Mormon and compare the Bible in the King James Version. I learned that the book of Mormon contradicts many of the scriptures of the Bible and Jesus Christ himself said that in Matthew 22:30 that no one will be married nor given in marriage. I don't blame a Mormon to be honest. They're mostly good people and many of them want to please God and do the right thing. Becoming a god, living happily ever after with a beautiful decent clean woman of mostly your choosing has its appeal. I pay my tithes, I have done a mission, I still attend my church and am involved in it so I could probably fit in. I just know it's not the truth. If the truth didn't matter and I could choose another religion, they would probably be it. I'm still a single man, saving myself for a woman for marriage and knowing it's too late to go back there because I would try to find out where I would fit in a church where most LDS people are already married at my age. Seeing things from Linda's father's perspective I can understand how one can become bitter within the church because something wasn't right. When she spoke about her father being harsh with her on the day of a certain wedding, I knew right off the bat he was trying to protect his wife, her mom, because it meant so much to them and her comment would do nothing to comfort her. I just want to end my commentary by saying it isn't fair to judge someone. You have this one life to explore, discover, and be who you need to be while to find the truth. Once you find it, don't let it go for anything. You learn something from everything, even what NOT to do. This last sentence is for Linda Clyde. Linda thanks for sharing your story. IF you ever want to share your CSU experiences I would love to hear from you about them. I wouldn't trade them for anything. God bless.
I would suggest opening up to the possibility that the "truth" as you put it may include other connections with the divine that are not necessary based only within the bible or other written words by man.
Best of luck in your journey man. Thanks for your comment.
Thank you for sharing so much with us. I really enjoyed hearing your story! This will resonate with so many mixed faith families.
You two are so sweet and fun.
I'm tired too. Couldn't relate more. Thanks for sharing
Time codes are great!!!
How Linda describes her loss of identity is exactly what I have been going through this year. It's intense. But faith crisis and identity crisis are a hard combo.
Wow, I was 58 minutes in until I figured out they were mother and daughter and not sisters
Once again OCD burnout in the church. It is a pattern with those that leave. So important to find moderation in all things in life!
Such a fabulous interview
We as Mormons need to be more open and loving. I want to share my love for all my human family.
Carah! You rock!
1:30:20 the “I did do some tea” comment is a great representation of milieu control. Who asks another person if it’s alright to drink tea? Someone who feels it is a threat to their social capital and reputation if they are perceived to be sinners.
50:38
This is so important to understand. Stamping it so I can refer back to it.
This is so much like how I grew up-- the dissonance of messages hurt a lot
My great great great grandfather is Hyrum Smith and I am having doubts about the church.
As a non Mormon, these interviews (reminiscent of documentaries I've seen on N. Korea or Saudi Arabia) are showing me how difficult it is to undo existential programming, and how easy it is to program legions of people - even when the proposed beliefs are patently impossible / unreasonable. Now, when I think of talking to my Republican father, or fundamentalist Christian loved-ones, it's now clear to me how futile it is to try to debate ideas. Then, when I think of the current political rifts in America... modern religions like MAGA, Tea Party, ANTIFA, right, left etc. ... I think we have to admit that those chasms are probably too wide and entrenched to be dissolved by any normal type of discourse. To me, this is scary, but at least it's realistic.
Thank you for the time codes!
26:26 It's interesting how the church has surprisingly explicit ways of revealing people's personal worthiness or unworthiness through its ordinances. Anyone can say that people aren't supposed to judge all they want but ordinances like the sacrament and a temple sealing, or receiving the endowment and serving a mission for men, are all public displays of worthiness. They just are! And because they are, fellow members can't help _but_ make judgements on individuals who don't participate in these things at a time when they should be. Everyone knows the commandments and everyone knows what kinds of sins it would take to deem someone unworthy. It is a well crafted system to not only induce judgement out of the members onto an individual, but to also incentivize obedience in everyone so as to avoid the risk of making a private issue public.
A patriarchal blessing what a control method!
Whether employed or contracted out, marketing departments need excellent copy writers for their material
@2:08:28 and Birth order in your own Mormon family prevents you from attending your older sibling's temple weddings but Tithe paying invited Mormon friends can attend the wedding ... Being the youngest I missed out on all of their weddings and had to wait outside the Temple.
I love you, John, and I agree with you, but I have to call you out for taking every opportunity to point out “cultish” aspects of the Mormon church but call it “high demand religion” behaviour. It’s 100% a cult and you know it, but I understand it’s bad PR to say it so bluntly. Please don’t change a thing.
It seems to me that John would like to respect everyone. Telling someone they're in a cult doesn't help them.
Linda reminds me of the woman Truman falls in love with in the Truman Show.
ha! 1:04:00 That story of running into an old friend in Blockbuster is pretty funny. Her assuming they had one older and then being told that this one is the oldest, had to be confusing to her BUT i guarantee, she went away thinking, "Oh they had to get married but probably suffered a miscarriage."
The church has really lost a special person in Linda!! They should be devastated to have lost her. She is so real, humble and compassionate. Good for you Linda! Don't ever go back! It's made up and you don't need it to be happy and raise a good family.
For me I always think of the St. George Temple as being the last one built by Brigham Young. As I remember it, the architect added a tower to the structure that Brigham Young did not like and wanted it removed but was not. After Brigham died there was a storm that destroyed the tower. According to Mormon myth he had it struck down from Heaven. I think of that and my cousins who lived across the street
To be fair to people who may still suspect someone HAD to get married or that a woman trapped a man into marriage he did not want, a LOT of women have at least 1 miscarriage before a live birth. That gives some of them and their parents a natural shield to pretend people were wrong to have gossiped they HAD to get married due to unplanned pregnancy.
People still should not be shaming others for sex before marriage, but I personally know for a fact that quite a few men and women when older confided to me the gossip about them or their child or their parents had been true, but there were miscarriages. Because back in the day to be pregnant outside of marriage was actually a social shunning with getting kicked out of jobs, homes, school, churches. Serious stuff.
So I understand there may have been accurate reasons to always suspect a couple had to be married, AND I understand why people would continue to lie when they know they HAD been pregnant but then quietly miscarried.
Wait what?! These two aren't sisters?!
I can relate a lot to Linda's experience. People say the worst things to inactive people that are trying to come back to church. They do kind of act like your the new guy at the company too. That arrogance that they have all the answers but it's ok they will teach you. They need to create some training classes on things to say and things not to say to inactives returning to church. Of course, I would tell the inactives to not bother, its all lies and you will get nothing from it in the end.
Church should be joyous, humbling and inspiring. The stone-throwers need to take a seat and listen to the gospel because they did not get the message yet. The church experience should have the sentiment of the return of the prodigal son story where everyone is celebrating the individual returning by providing the best of the best because they are happy that the individual has chosen to come. Everyone should be in a genuine celebratory mode. No judgements. I am sorry for your experience. It did not have to be that way.
John, you are a good person and honesty and accuracy is important to you. Please clarify members can choose to have a civil wedding so nonmember parents and relatives can attend and celebrate. Many religions have wedding ceremonies. Being sealed in the temple is a religious ritual. We need to bifurcate weddings from sealings.
The policy was changed during Covid. In the US, before Covid, you could not have a civil ceremony and then be sealed in the temple without waiting one year.
My grandparents sat outside my parents’ wedding, and my dad sat outside my wedding.
The temple seals more out than seals in…such a weight
Funny in the so called blessing told her she was in the tribe of Ephraim...obviously the gentleman has not read the book of reverlation because Ephraim along with the tribe of Dan does not go to heaven ..they are so wishy-washy anything goes.. not straight in the faith..(bringing paganism into their faith)..strange that represents the missionaries..
I cannot believe they are mother/daughter. They look the same age ☠️☠️☠️
Where is Part 2?
Tomorrow at 10am Utah time!
I’m confused … is it over for now?
Tomorrow part 2 premiers at 10am Utah time!
Very abrupt ending to part one.
Stay tuned for part 2. It will be posted soon.
Tomorrow part 2 premiers at 10am Utah time!
Pay back tithing 😂 No this church doesn't make you pay for your salvation 🙄
What other church in the whole frickin' world holds mandatory tithing settlements at thr end of every yr and expects members to bring in their tax forms for review?
@@kathyclark8274 Right!
@@kathyclark8274 it’s not mandatory, nor do you need to prove anything with tax returns. It’s solely a time to meet with the bishop, review any and all donations of record and a chance to receive documentation to use when you file your taxes.
@@tylerrickertsen4197 and to find out if you are worthy of a temple recommend...or do you owe back tithing in order to keep it.
I’m curious why do they even tell the Bishop about their sex life? It’s not his business
As a non-believer, who has a good mormon friend, as far as i can tell because they are tought so. They hear from a early state of childhood that if they do something sinfull they are damaged an less worthy and the bishop will help them "fix" themself if they had done something "wrong" and as folowing as they are, I really mean this in a non offensive way, they repent in the thought of wanting to get fixed.
@@hadeskilch3735 how very sad that they don’t know they can go straight to Jesus and repent build the relationship there. A priest Bishop extra is human too it’s so strange to go to another person to wash your sins
Who was the tattoo artist that did the daughters drawing?
Was the ending intentional?
It was just the first half of the interview. The second half will be posted soon.
@@lindaclyde6515 its an honor to hear your story Linda. Your public vulnerability is admirable. I’m looking forward to hearing more.
@@tima5033 That’s very kind of you. Thank you.
Tomorrow part 2 premiers at 10am Utah time!
You never get past your past in the Mormon church. You'll always be the couple that didn't get married in the temple. You'll always be the guy that didn't go on a mission. Mormonisim is a judging religion. You are taught to constantly evaluate your standing with god with quickly leads to comparisons with those around you. "I know I'm a better Mormon than so-and-so" The whole thing is toxic.
This is exactly right. There are soooo many levels of judgement and perceived worthiness in mormon culture. Importantly, many of the things members judge each other on are not things that one can just study harder, pray harder, or strengthen one's personal beliefs to overcome. They are as permanent as if they were your skin color (another LDS issue that shares some similarities in the past). Doctrine aside, at some point a lot of members have to decide if they want to go through their LDS life always being viewed or pitied as a second class citizen or not. Some choose to stay and accept their new station in LDS life, some choose self-respect, self-honesty, and the opportunity for unlimited personal growth and choose to leave. What's especially sad is when some members let their own positive views of others be suppressed or negatively influenced by the real or perceived judgement of their peers, family, or church officials.
@@Dave-zx2im I find it humorous, all this talk about “Mormon culture” depending on location that “culture” is different. So to judge the entire church based on your experience with in a culture developed independent from what the church actually teaches is just sad. Sad, that so many are trapped experiencing similar drifts from pure doctrine. I have never experienced the things every one here have shared with in the church. The “shame culture” has never taken root in the various places I’ve lived. And when it does shine it’s ugly head, it’s baseless. I have always been taught the church is just a tool, a resource we can utilize, or not, as we navigate our way thru our individual covenant path. Yes, there are surely vital actions that every one must take at some point along that journey. The church didn’t make that up, a loving Heavenly Father did, to which Christ taught and paved his path, a perfect path that I’f we attempt to follow might not get lost in the shuffle. History has proven that it doesn’t take long to pervert heavenly guidance. One example is with the Jews forgetting their very purpose, getting lost bubble they create to protect themselves. Many “Mormons” have taken similar paths to protect themselves, but in doing so made it easy for the adversary to deceive everyone.
It does sound toxic. The mindset of going to church should be to commune with God and not to climb the pyramid of worthiness. God forgives and forgets and one is worthy just because they were made by God.
I don’t understand why kids would tell on themselves. Especially to an old man
People constantly telling us to.
guilt and shame. Sexual sin is "next to murder." The guilt of doing something causes many to doubt their salvation.
We’re taught that not to do so is prideful and we fear man more than God, which is a sure way to not reach the highest heaven. It’s sad really.
"Fellowshipping" as a verb is just SO uncomfortable.
The shame that is put on its congregants is so disheartening. It should be the focus of a congregation to welcome and to encourage everyone to " come as you are" and we will not judge you but rather rejoice in your desire to worship.
As a non Mormon why is it so important for Morgan’s to baptize the dead? Surely these dead people can’t go to the “best” heaven since they were not sealed in the temple? Why even bother baptizing them? Is there some lesser heaven where all the “not quite good enough souls hang out”? Who made up all these rules and regulations about heaven? Jesus spoke of heaven but he never spoke of it being segregated.
Mormon theology is a mess. Maybe all theology is.
Supposedly each temple ordinance is a gift that a dead nonmember can either choose to accept or not accept. If the dead nonmember never got married/ the info is too incomplete then maybe that sucks as far as getting into the highest heaven. I think that the Millennial time period after the Second Coming of Jesus Christ is supposed to be when everyone dead and/or alive finally gets sorted into their preferred/tenable eternal existence.
@@maam-yj8ph actually no, the millennium is where we all live in one place and God lives with us. we will still continue to do temple work like baptisms and sealings. So all who have not been able to in this life will get that chance. After the millennium is where we all get sorted into different places based on obedience and what not.
It is important to know the role of Satan and when you leave a window open he will enter your soul and manipulate you slowly to your destruction. Satan spends more time with you than the holy ghost. Speaking on the temple I have realized that heaven has left the living to make decisions and much more detail but this is not a place to speak of.
I find it odd she grew up in the church and got sealed after she was married but somehow thought/thinks that she wouldn't go to heaven if she wasn't sealed in the temple. That's actually patently false in that the Mormons don't teach that. This is in addition to my personal perspective that there are no gods and no heaven anyway, but I still feel people should be accurate in their statements especially when they're criticizing someone else.
Edit: sorry, but I've got to call bullshit. I highly doubt anyone would have to pay years of "back tithing". Aside from the obvious impracticality of that, the bishop only asks, "are you a full tithe payer". They don't verify anything against paystubs or anything even approaching that.
Also, nobody checks your underwear. What a ludicrous suggestion.
Edit 2: it's not in any way off-script for Mormon women/moms to go to college. The Mormons highly value higher education - for both sexes.
"I find it odd she grew up in the church and got sealed after she was married but somehow thought/thinks that she wouldn't go to heaven if she wasn't sealed in the temple."
That's actually a very commonly held belief and 100% our real doctrine ... without temple marriage, even if married and active, no "heaven", or more precise, no "celestial kingdom" without being sealed in the temple. To understand, you need to learn about our beliefs in a graduated / levels of heaven. The "highest degree" of "eternal glory" cannot be obtained without being sealed for married couples of members. A person can go to the "celestial kingdom" if they never get married on their own ... but for a couple that gets married, and they are members of the "church", and don't get sealed = no "celestial kingdom".
You say that mormons don't teach that ... I taught that to Investigators on my mission ... just an example ... it very much is our doctrine.
"I highly doubt anyone would have to pay years of "back tithing"
Also a very true thing. It depends how it is handled on a case by case basis, but a member can be made to pay back tithing in order to receive a temple recommend. I have personally heard of this happening more than once. It can be used as a "carrot in front of the horse" source of motivation for "priesthood" men. The examples of this happening are reserved for men who are older, RMs, have a family, and were temple married ... it is seen as a way to "get right with the Lord" ... of course a youth or single mother would never be asked to do so ... but in the right situation, I have heard of this happening ...
"They don't verify anything against paystubs or anything even approaching that"
Also can be true. Employees for the "Church Education System", for example, have their income statements sent to their Bishops. Their Bishops then tell the individual how much tithing they are going to pay. So if you work for the "church", you forfeit any rights to privacy ...
"he Mormons highly value higher education - for both sexes."
Lastly, I very much agree. We in fact value education, for women especially, more than any other people I have ever been in contact with in my life. My great great grandmother was one of the first female graduates of the U ... my own mother has a Master's ... all my aunts went to college, as did nearly all my cousins ... multi-generational lds Utah family here, and education for women has always been right at the top running parallel to marriage and kids ... just one example, but education is important.