I read a paper where maxillary expansion also caused the mandible to expand compared to the control group who didn't get mse. It was done on kids though
It seems like Dr. Mew put an emphasis on chewing in adult orthodontic expansion. He has adults chew an hour everyday. He mentions the structural matrix of the bone and teeth to be affected largely by their function.
@@FOURTEEFIVE it has to do with putting pressure and forces on the maxilla daily. These pressures and stresses can cause some remodeling to occur over a long period of time.
Icepacks can cause death of fat cells if you leave it on long enough, just like Coolsculpt. So yeah your cheekbones could get more visible. I wouldn't do it though, because in old age you probably want some of that volume back. I would use Volofiline to add volume on the cheeks instead ruclips.net/video/95LBJzo8hV8/видео.html But, this is all esthetic only, I want the health benefits of MSE, so not doing this yet..
Would be nice if you made a form on your website where people who have done MSE can fill in what they've done, how long it took, the costs, the specifics, etc. Anonymously of course. So that those who are considering it can see what path others have taken.
that would def be great. With all these oral appliances available costing tons of time and money it would be helpful to see has been working best for people that already went through it. I still have no idea what appliance would be best for mandible growth. There's so much conflicting information out there.
They think this because they hear it from mewing, ie when you push your face forward from mewing the mandible comes forward as well because the force is slow and even. However, the appliances do not work the same way with the same natural force as correct tongue posture.
@@vesssy95 yes. I used my tongue when mewing which expanded my maxilla and i know my mandible expanded too because my bite stayed equal from up to down
That “myth” is what I was told yesterday in a consult with an orthodontist trained in the Myobrace. And I thought I had heard Dr. Mike Mew say the same thing. So, now I’m confused.
Because you split your suture with MSE without palatal expansion with the tongue, you can't expect your mandible to expand with it. If you had expanded your palate naturally without appliances, you probably would've expanded your mandible too. The forces in the mouth would affect both Top and Bottom jaws. That's why you think the mandible can't expand when you expand the Maxilla.
I’m so glad I read your comment as I split my palate naturally with my tongue and I was really panicking. I think my lower jaw has definitely filled out too
Hi Ron, great content as usual. I do however, have a question about the DNA/Vivos and Homeoblock appliances which claim to either 'remode' or 'grow' bone and use 3D scans, before and after, to evidence this. What explanation would you give to this?
@@madisonwiley123 Consistency varies day to day, I might miss a face pulling sesh when I go to the mall etc... but try for like 8 times a day, every hour or so. I used to set alarms, now I go by time, much safer. I also dont really massage my palate, I just push really hard for about 2 minutes, alternating hands (the tongue doesnt massage palate when Mewing, thats my reasoning). I use my one thumb to push on the suture on the soft palate with the other thumb pressing on it. Do this with alternating with both hands for 2 minutes. After 2 mins I pull forward on the alveolar ridge for another minute. I believe when progress is slow and solid like this, the body can adjust to the gains made without surgery.
@@JulesLife I got too busy after just a while of pulling.. I think just perfecting the suction hold is best, although forgetting sometimes is still unavoidable if your palate is narrow. My my face bones have improved definitely, but my palate is stubborn. I think if someone can consistently do the thumb pull though, it could successfully emulate a device.
Right? I'm slightly confused because I thought the claim of the Homeoblock and DNA/Vivos was that the bottom expander moved the teeth in the mandible so as to retain an occlusion?
@Scorpio Lee The Homeoblock and DNA appliances argue that their devices promote new bone growth and evidence this with before and after 3D scans. I am slightly confused as to how this is possible if they only move teeth?
Dr Derek Mahoney is treating me next month and his agenda is to give me 8-10 mm of inter-molar expansion. During this MSE expansion I will be wearing a face mask of some kind at night. After the expansion and additional forward upswinging of my maxilla has occurred, he will align my teeth in preparation for a BSSO surgery. I am uncomfortable with the BSSO surgery plan because it involves removed a healthy (not yet erupted) wisdom tooth and also because it requires two cuts to the bone as opposed to one splitting of the mandibular suture via mandibular symphysis. I hope you'll have time in the next few months for a chat re what I've just said, I'll DM about it anyway.
I am planning to get MSE by Dr Derek Mahoney as well. If you don't mind how old are you and what is your diagnosis? I have a bit bigger lower jaw, which i need to expand my palate to match my lower jaw.
There's plenty reason to believe the mandible can grow with the maxilla, you're using your experience with AGGA and MSE to argue your point, however, with AGGA the occlusion of your molars and premolars didn't change, only the occlusion of your front 6 teeth. Imagine if your mandible did actually grow in this scenario (which would be impossible), the occlusion of your molars would be as if you had a major underbite. For MSE, you split the suture to achieve rapid expansion, the mandible does not have a suture to split so the only way it could conceivably expand is through bone remodeling, not only that, expansion was so fast that you compensated with a brodie bite to have normal occlusion on at least one side to be able to chew. With MSE and AGGA the mandible was never given the opportunity to remodel, therefore it didn't. Servosystem theory explains how the mandible keeps up with the maxilla, occlusion provides an input for growth signals and feedback mechanisms, given sufficient input and all other factors aside, occlusion will naturally be "perfect". Of course other factors exist which is why malocclusion exists, but even so malocclusion is the "perfect" occlusion given the other factors. Not sure if I'm making sense but basically given enough input the occlusion will be where it's supposed to be because that's the most "efficient" occlusion for chewing. And it's not that there's a magical way your teeth find this occlusion, it's just how it works, just how you'd expect for a ball to roll down a hill, a cusp-fossae relationship is most efficient for chewing. Given the forces from chewing and occlusion your teeth naturally tend to this relationship.
Doesn't matter what appliance it is tbh. Imo mse is not particularly special, even though the forces are directly transferred on skeletal bone, that force is transferred through just 4 screws on the palate so pressure is higher compared to an appliance that acts on the soft tissue and teeth. For slow expansion I think a removable appliance or the tongue is better for that reason, while if you're looking to split the palate mse is better because forces are directly transferred to the maxilla and therefore there is no flaring of the teeth. High forces on a tissue/tooth borne appliance will only damage the gum tissu and flare the teeth. For the mandible, the only way for it to keep up is slow expansion as well as probably some daily chewing regimen. John mew in his book says the biological ideal rate of expansion is 1/16 mm per day. So I think 1-2 mm a month is a safe bet (with chewing). 3-4 mm is pushing it but still might be possible.
@Hood Legend In my opinion, you shouldn't experiment with these type of things because we don't even know for sure how the skull grows. For example, a lot of people think that the maxilla drops down and back, that it's because of gravity this happens, there are contrary viewpoints emerging as of late that this doesn't actually happen. I'm in the camp that the maxilla doesn't drop down and back, just that people lack forward growth. I've actually been researching/thinking about this topic as of late, my view as of now is that a "downswung" face is really just a premature jaw along with a fully grown skull. According to Enlow the maxilla grows down and forward (more accurately grows down and up and displaced down and forward), the "down" aspect of growth isn't related to the tongue, so whether you keep proper tongue posture or not a maturing person's maxilla is going to grow downwards. The forward aspect is impacted by the tongue, so when a jaw only grows downward and not forwards due to a lacking tongue posture you get a "downswung" face and small jaws, that's my view. I also think when you expand the maxilla longitudinally it's also displaced forward, though I'm not sure why as of now and still looking into possible reasons. www.angle.org/doi/pdf/10.2319/052708-281.1 "The pterygoid plate was displaced in a posterosuperior direction." This is a study on the effects of the herbst appliance, an appliance which retracts the maxilla, opposite of forward growth. As quoted, the pterygoid plate is displaced back and up (postersuperior), the opposite must occur if you have forward growth, at least that's what I think. The pterygoid plate should be displaced anterinferiorly (down and forward). Basically what I think is that the goal should be expanding the maxilla, longitudinally (the maxilla gets longer), and laterally (the maxilla gets wider). When the maxilla grows in length it's also displaced forward, although I can't explain why as of yet. Relating to an appliance that pulls forward, I wouldn't experiment with pulling at angles, you just need forward growth, I think the tongue is a safer bet though. In addition if you give enough time and occlusal forces for the mandible, it will follow. If you are too fast and you don't chew enough to maintain occlusion your mandible won't be able to keep up. In my opinion I think there is no current facepulling appliance (bow, facemask, etc.) that is better than the tongue. Facepulling appliances have issues with anchorage as well as efficient transfer of forces onto the maxilla, there's also the issue of not being able to wear it 24/7 unless you are willing to wear it at school/work/public. Just use the tongue to push forward on the palate, not on the teeth but above the teeth in a spot that feels comfortable or natural (this will differ from person to person since people have varying degrees of steepness, vaulted palate, etc.). For reference and just an interesting fact is that our ancestors had an IMW in the lower 50s and their maxilla was long enough to fit all their teeth, including the wisdom teeth, comfortably with no crowding and a little bit of space behind the wisdom tooth. i.imgur.com/oXoQvbb.png?1 This is what it should look like.
@Hood Legend I think the tongue can produce results at any age, if you can expand even 1 mm what's to say you can't expand 2, 4, 5, etc. There's no reason to set arbitrary limits it's not as if the body will just stop at x amount of expansion. There's plenty of evidence that skeletal expansion is possible, and not even particularly difficult in adults, even in elderly, I know of a 70 year old case, the mandible was able to expand as well, although the expansion was pretty slow, if I had to guess he expanded 3-5 mm in a year. This is with an appliance of course, however, the tongue is strong enough to split the palate, not that I have any strong scientific evidence for this, but Jamo from thegreatwork got a diastema, which doesn't prove that he split his palate but it does show that the tongue can expand the palate plenty fine, fast enough to create diastemas and possibly split the palate. From personal experience I can say it's possible, though I haven't split my palate myself, mostly because it's too painful and I'd rather opt for slow expansion so that I don't damage the gums/periodontal ligament and the mandible can follow. Also like I said, I don't think it's about "moving" the maxilla, especially in any particular direction, it's about expanding the maxilla to it's genetic limit. edit: Here's a video on how teeth shift ruclips.net/video/LNi-1xEttrI/видео.html Given the mechanism, logically there's no real "limit" unless you fully expand to your genetic potential and the size of your tongue. Within the gums/periodontal ligament the teeth can shift ever so slightly, ie they aren't fixed to the bone. So if you shift the teeth fractions of a mm and it's kept there new bone will form and that new position will be it's "set point", it will be in it's balance zone. Over time it's possible with these small changes to expand the maxilla considerably.
@Hood Legend To give a more definitive answer on how slow expansion needs to be to allow the mandible to follow, the periodontal membrane attaching the teeth to the alveolar bone is 1/16mm thick and that much is also regenerated every night, in other words rate of "remodeling" is 1/16 mm every day, same as the thickness of the periodontal membrane (ie the "wiggle room" for the teeth as they aren't entirely fixed to the bone). The only reason it's possible to expand faster than this is because the maxilla has a suture, however, the mandible doesn't, so if you expand faster than this your mandible won't follow, and it's not even a guarantee your mandible will follow at a pace of 1/16 mm per day UNLESS you are sufficiently chewing.
@Hood Legend There is, for example, you can find cases where they use cbct scan and "overlay" the before and after showing where bone growth occurred and even in adults the mandible does remodel, even if only slightly and the expansion was quite slow. Also, I don't know if facepulling is safe or not, I myself would avoid it, however, if you are going to use facepulling it would be most safe to not experiment with any pulling angles and don't be too excessive with the pulling forces. Finally, I made a bit of a blunder, the periodontal membrane is 1/16mm each side, that means if each tooth on both sides expands 1/16mm outwards that's 1/8mm of palatal expansion or about 1 mm per week. Mike Mew uses this rate of expansion even on adults so that's probably the fastest rate of expansion that's still safe, any faster and you'll be damaging the teeth/gums unless your expanding with a suture split/mse. ruclips.net/video/QCNqbvOALZI/видео.html Here's the video where Mike Mew talks about adult expansion.
As a woman, I actually don't want my lower jaw to be wider with mandibular distraction osteogenesis. I want the maxilla and especially zygoma's wider and the lower jaw more forward, but not wider.
kittendivine1 Even easier, MSE is the best option for expanding the maxilla and zygomatic arch ..Then a more common, less complex surgery; mandibular advancement
@CrazyFish Yes I know, but in the mandible, I'd prefer the expansion to be in the alveolar bone region only, and not the whole mandible which increases jaw width.
I don't believe you NEED surgery or SFOT to expand the mandible. There are orthodontic devices that expand the mandible. Of course, it's gonna be difficult to find an orthodontist who is prepared to do this just like finding an orthodontist who is willing to expand the palate on adults, but it is possible without surgery. Dr Mew himself has a video on expansion of mandible.
Hi Marty Jr. So where is the best place to start in all of this? I have a deep overbite, sleep apnea and a narrow airway. What oral appliances are said to help with the mandible? I think MSE would help me but I certainly wouldn't want to make things worse.
How about not doing MSE at all? Think of it this way A device like MSE is designed for rapid palatal expansion (the very name MARPE emphasizes that). What is the problem with this? Expansion as such is traumatizing for the suture, making the purpose of the suture itself lost. It is torn apart and everything heals with scar tissue. So muscle function and making gains of some sort with correct oral posture would theoretically no longer be possible. Not to mention that it doesn't all stop there, very, very few cases have a favorable aesthetic outcome with MSE. Since you are basically breaking the suture in two, the nose and midface will increase in size (not necessarily bad, it depends on the case) this goes against a slight, constant and natural pressure, what our body is designed for. Plus if you expand that much with MSE you have to undergo the consequent treatment of braces and most likely do something surgical for the jaw. All this to just artificially increase the airway volume. Because we know one thing, MSE only expands laterally and the aesthetic results are somewhat unpredictable. So think twice before undergoing MSE expansion, unless it is your last resort. Sometimes it is best to simply adopt the habits we should have always maintained and this will help more in the long run, we need to get in touch with nature again, losing contact with it is what brought us all here in the first place.
I recommend everyone finds a ortho that they TRUST and ask if they know a surgeon that is capable of what is needed and desired. You will be much better off.
So if agga, alf and the other expanders only effect the upper jaw growth then mewing should be the same correct? Meaning any growth from mewing could lead to an imbalance between the upper/lower jaw or your bite
i believe those appliances and correct tongue posture have their effects over a long period of time rather an appliance like mse which brute forces your maxilla open
How long did you use the MSE? I belive my lower jaw has expanded to mach my palate but apart from mewing I do some agressive facial exercises where my teeth are clinched. I know for a fact this has happened because I had to teeth on the lower jaw with were bending inwards very noticeable and made the space for my tongue very small and now they ha strengthen a lot and there's more space for my tongue.
I have a question. What affects the face is just having bad body posture? Or what affects the face is having bad body posture, which causes your tongue not to be on the roof of your mouth. I say this because I have kinda bad body posture but my tongue is allways completely at the roof of my mouth.
I have top and bottom expanders from Vivos. I turn both top and bottom every 10 days. I have check in every 4-6 weeks to make sure progressing correctly. Post expansion will get tongue tie release and Invisalign to go wider. Why not use a bottom expander?
what about thump pulling is it the same ?/ thump pulling with mewing make maxilla expand . If the maxilla and mandible are very close in size so I shouldn't do thump pulling /?
What is your opinion on condylar remodelling? Did you have bite plates to decompress the condyles during your agga treatment? You lost 5mm of your forward remodeling, after that did your tmj feel comfortable in the new position? Thankyou
Sadie Stanton that is a great question! I have suffered with TMJ Disorder the last 12 or so years, part of me thinks this could help it, but a bigger part is worried it would make it so much worse. I got my tongue tie clipped recently and that has helped me tremendously with TMD and with correct tongue posture.
I have moderated class 3 because of small maxillar, i saw all your videos, i want to do mse just for correct maloclusion, but i dont know who can do it to me in mu country, im from spain
Yeah, body can do a lot, but it works according with the laws of physics, you can't expect body to defy them, especially when you do something as unnatural as MSE. When you do something like that, you're stuck in a cycle of fixing problems, and creating new ones as a result, unfortunately. To be honest, I would never do something like that even if I was severely crippled, I would still try to go natural way, and look harder into input in my body.
What is the natural way? The natural way is living in caves, eating hard uncooked food and having a big skull. That was eons ago, nowadays our jaws are underdeveloped. This is because of our own lifestyles, we’ve been eating soft cooked foods since the industrial age and there seems to be no end in sight to this problem. How many people have crooked teeth and need braces? How many people snore? Do you think this evolution can be fixed in one person’s lifespan in a “natural way”? Most people only discover they have a problem with their skeleton when they’re much older. MSE is for many their only option to treat their sleep disorder caused by their cranofacial deficiencies.
@@kseniyazarubina5484 Jesus does not exist. If he did, he would be the biggest scumbag on earth. Stop spreading misinformation under a video where people come to for their medical issues.
@@NickArabuli if you do end up getting braces in the future, always try to opt for expanders and not tooth extractions. tooth extractions will lead to a sunken and narrow face, which is what happened to me.
@@Iuffycs ive had braces for a while, also most of the time braces dont mean they will remove your teeth. Also i have a sunken face from mouthbreathing 😔
@@NickArabuli yeah I mean, most people who go and get braces need to at least take a tooth out so I was just pointing it out there. if you didn't have to that's good. I also have a sunken face from mouth breathing too, so you're not alone :))
@@JawHacks You are welcome. As someone who is affected by the Norwood Reaper (Androgenetic Alopecia) I have to jealously admit that you have great hair and a great hair line :=))
My dentist put me on a mse before my top braces thankfully but I’m near my end of treatment and I realized that I have a snag tooth that is permanent because they never expanded it all the way
I read a paper where maxillary expansion also caused the mandible to expand compared to the control group who didn't get mse. It was done on kids though
I used my tongue when mewing which expanded my maxilla and i know my mandible expanded too because my bite stayed equal from up to down
It seems like Dr. Mew put an emphasis on chewing in adult orthodontic expansion. He has adults chew an hour everyday. He mentions the structural matrix of the bone and teeth to be affected largely by their function.
Can you ELI5?
can you explain like I am 5?
@@FOURTEEFIVE it has to do with putting pressure and forces on the maxilla daily. These pressures and stresses can cause some remodeling to occur over a long period of time.
This is madness. Im now at the point of giving up.
@Scorpio Lee what do you mean by icepacks for face?
@Scorpio Lee wow nice, will try it.
Also I tried ice under my eyes but the feeling was too weird, almost painfull you know smthing about this?
Icepacks can cause death of fat cells if you leave it on long enough, just like Coolsculpt. So yeah your cheekbones could get more visible. I wouldn't do it though, because in old age you probably want some of that volume back. I would use Volofiline to add volume on the cheeks instead ruclips.net/video/95LBJzo8hV8/видео.html
But, this is all esthetic only, I want the health benefits of MSE, so not doing this yet..
mewing is bullshit. Surgery is not.
@@luizeduardoardovino8353 bullshit
Would be nice if you made a form on your website where people who have done MSE can fill in what they've done, how long it took, the costs, the specifics, etc. Anonymously of course. So that those who are considering it can see what path others have taken.
that would def be great. With all these oral appliances available costing tons of time and money it would be helpful to see has been working best for people that already went through it. I still have no idea what appliance would be best for mandible growth. There's so much conflicting information out there.
Man all this shit is going to drop me in a depression i can't afford anything like that
same bro
@@asdasdasda5857genuinely made me sad
They think this because they hear it from mewing, ie when you push your face forward from mewing the mandible comes forward as well because the force is slow and even. However, the appliances do not work the same way with the same natural force as correct tongue posture.
Is it even true for mewing though?
But does it expand-to allow for more room for the lower teeth?
@@vesssy95 yes. I used my tongue when mewing which expanded my maxilla and i know my mandible expanded too because my bite stayed equal from up to down
@@xxpowwowbluexxyea
That “myth” is what I was told yesterday in a consult with an orthodontist trained in the Myobrace. And I thought I had heard Dr. Mike Mew say the same thing. So, now I’m confused.
How much is MYOBRACE? Did you get an estimate? Thank you
I used my tongue when mewing which expanded my maxilla and i know my mandible expanded too because my bite stayed equal from up to down
Because you split your suture with MSE without palatal expansion with the tongue, you can't expect your mandible to expand with it. If you had expanded your palate naturally without appliances, you probably would've expanded your mandible too. The forces in the mouth would affect both Top and Bottom jaws. That's why you think the mandible can't expand when you expand the Maxilla.
He straight up promotes this terrific invasive surgeries for a reason, he is not interested in natural way.
@A K true, but is maxilla-splitting the only way of having expansion of molar width without involving too much of the alveolar bone?
I’m so glad I read your comment as I split my palate naturally with my tongue and I was really panicking. I think my lower jaw has definitely filled out too
@@tallisinwonderland4724 how old were you im trying to do the same please respond
Thanks
@@tallisinwonderland4724 Congratulations btw in reopening your maxilla
Hi Ron, great content as usual. I do however, have a question about the DNA/Vivos and Homeoblock appliances which claim to either 'remode' or 'grow' bone and use 3D scans, before and after, to evidence this. What explanation would you give to this?
Ive expanded about 1mm or 1.5mm probably with thumb pulling in 4 weeks, still trying new things though. Just turned 18.
How often did you thumb pull?
@@madisonwiley123 Consistency varies day to day, I might miss a face pulling sesh when I go to the mall etc... but try for like 8 times a day, every hour or so. I used to set alarms, now I go by time, much safer. I also dont really massage my palate, I just push really hard for about 2 minutes, alternating hands (the tongue doesnt massage palate when Mewing, thats my reasoning). I use my one thumb to push on the suture on the soft palate with the other thumb pressing on it. Do this with alternating with both hands for 2 minutes. After 2 mins I pull forward on the alveolar ridge for another minute.
I believe when progress is slow and solid like this, the body can adjust to the gains made without surgery.
Can you play please post a link to a video that demonstrates the kind of thumb pulling you're doing?
@@emilesaayman4255 How is it going now?
@@JulesLife I got too busy after just a while of pulling.. I think just perfecting the suction hold is best, although forgetting sometimes is still unavoidable if your palate is narrow. My my face bones have improved definitely, but my palate is stubborn. I think if someone can consistently do the thumb pull though, it could successfully emulate a device.
Aren’t there expanders for the lower jaw as well? Why can’t that be used to fix any malocclusion caused by maxillary explanation?
Right? I'm slightly confused because I thought the claim of the Homeoblock and DNA/Vivos was that the bottom expander moved the teeth in the mandible so as to retain an occlusion?
@Scorpio Lee The Homeoblock and DNA appliances argue that their devices promote new bone growth and evidence this with before and after 3D scans. I am slightly confused as to how this is possible if they only move teeth?
Thank you Ron, you have been super insightful into these predicaments.
Good for you, Ron. Keep telling the truth. Evolutionary biology and genetics are not wrong. Spiritualism and woo are.
Can you prove evolution though
False. They aren't separate.
Hey Ronald, what do you think about lower arch expanders like Hyrax ?
Wouldnt they expand it enough to correct occlusion with braces after MSE ?
Dr Derek Mahoney is treating me next month and his agenda is to give me 8-10 mm of inter-molar expansion. During this MSE expansion I will be wearing a face mask of some kind at night. After the expansion and additional forward upswinging of my maxilla has occurred, he will align my teeth in preparation for a BSSO surgery. I am uncomfortable with the BSSO surgery plan because it involves removed a healthy (not yet erupted) wisdom tooth and also because it requires two cuts to the bone as opposed to one splitting of the mandibular suture via mandibular symphysis. I hope you'll have time in the next few months for a chat re what I've just said, I'll DM about it anyway.
I am planning to get MSE by Dr Derek Mahoney as well. If you don't mind how old are you and what is your diagnosis? I have a bit bigger lower jaw, which i need to expand my palate to match my lower jaw.
There's plenty reason to believe the mandible can grow with the maxilla, you're using your experience with AGGA and MSE to argue your point, however, with AGGA the occlusion of your molars and premolars didn't change, only the occlusion of your front 6 teeth. Imagine if your mandible did actually grow in this scenario (which would be impossible), the occlusion of your molars would be as if you had a major underbite. For MSE, you split the suture to achieve rapid expansion, the mandible does not have a suture to split so the only way it could conceivably expand is through bone remodeling, not only that, expansion was so fast that you compensated with a brodie bite to have normal occlusion on at least one side to be able to chew. With MSE and AGGA the mandible was never given the opportunity to remodel, therefore it didn't. Servosystem theory explains how the mandible keeps up with the maxilla, occlusion provides an input for growth signals and feedback mechanisms, given sufficient input and all other factors aside, occlusion will naturally be "perfect". Of course other factors exist which is why malocclusion exists, but even so malocclusion is the "perfect" occlusion given the other factors. Not sure if I'm making sense but basically given enough input the occlusion will be where it's supposed to be because that's the most "efficient" occlusion for chewing. And it's not that there's a magical way your teeth find this occlusion, it's just how it works, just how you'd expect for a ball to roll down a hill, a cusp-fossae relationship is most efficient for chewing. Given the forces from chewing and occlusion your teeth naturally tend to this relationship.
Doesn't matter what appliance it is tbh. Imo mse is not particularly special, even though the forces are directly transferred on skeletal bone, that force is transferred through just 4 screws on the palate so pressure is higher compared to an appliance that acts on the soft tissue and teeth. For slow expansion I think a removable appliance or the tongue is better for that reason, while if you're looking to split the palate mse is better because forces are directly transferred to the maxilla and therefore there is no flaring of the teeth. High forces on a tissue/tooth borne appliance will only damage the gum tissu and flare the teeth. For the mandible, the only way for it to keep up is slow expansion as well as probably some daily chewing regimen. John mew in his book says the biological ideal rate of expansion is 1/16 mm per day. So I think 1-2 mm a month is a safe bet (with chewing). 3-4 mm is pushing it but still might be possible.
@Hood Legend In my opinion, you shouldn't experiment with these type of things because we don't even know for sure how the skull grows. For example, a lot of people think that the maxilla drops down and back, that it's because of gravity this happens, there are contrary viewpoints emerging as of late that this doesn't actually happen. I'm in the camp that the maxilla doesn't drop down and back, just that people lack forward growth. I've actually been researching/thinking about this topic as of late, my view as of now is that a "downswung" face is really just a premature jaw along with a fully grown skull. According to Enlow the maxilla grows down and forward (more accurately grows down and up and displaced down and forward), the "down" aspect of growth isn't related to the tongue, so whether you keep proper tongue posture or not a maturing person's maxilla is going to grow downwards. The forward aspect is impacted by the tongue, so when a jaw only grows downward and not forwards due to a lacking tongue posture you get a "downswung" face and small jaws, that's my view. I also think when you expand the maxilla longitudinally it's also displaced forward, though I'm not sure why as of now and still looking into possible reasons.
www.angle.org/doi/pdf/10.2319/052708-281.1
"The pterygoid plate was displaced in a posterosuperior direction."
This is a study on the effects of the herbst appliance, an appliance which retracts the maxilla, opposite of forward growth. As quoted, the pterygoid plate is displaced back and up (postersuperior), the opposite must occur if you have forward growth, at least that's what I think. The pterygoid plate should be displaced anterinferiorly (down and forward).
Basically what I think is that the goal should be expanding the maxilla, longitudinally (the maxilla gets longer), and laterally (the maxilla gets wider). When the maxilla grows in length it's also displaced forward, although I can't explain why as of yet.
Relating to an appliance that pulls forward, I wouldn't experiment with pulling at angles, you just need forward growth, I think the tongue is a safer bet though. In addition if you give enough time and occlusal forces for the mandible, it will follow. If you are too fast and you don't chew enough to maintain occlusion your mandible won't be able to keep up. In my opinion I think there is no current facepulling appliance (bow, facemask, etc.) that is better than the tongue. Facepulling appliances have issues with anchorage as well as efficient transfer of forces onto the maxilla, there's also the issue of not being able to wear it 24/7 unless you are willing to wear it at school/work/public. Just use the tongue to push forward on the palate, not on the teeth but above the teeth in a spot that feels comfortable or natural (this will differ from person to person since people have varying degrees of steepness, vaulted palate, etc.). For reference and just an interesting fact is that our ancestors had an IMW in the lower 50s and their maxilla was long enough to fit all their teeth, including the wisdom teeth, comfortably with no crowding and a little bit of space behind the wisdom tooth.
i.imgur.com/oXoQvbb.png?1
This is what it should look like.
@Hood Legend I think the tongue can produce results at any age, if you can expand even 1 mm what's to say you can't expand 2, 4, 5, etc. There's no reason to set arbitrary limits it's not as if the body will just stop at x amount of expansion. There's plenty of evidence that skeletal expansion is possible, and not even particularly difficult in adults, even in elderly, I know of a 70 year old case, the mandible was able to expand as well, although the expansion was pretty slow, if I had to guess he expanded 3-5 mm in a year. This is with an appliance of course, however, the tongue is strong enough to split the palate, not that I have any strong scientific evidence for this, but Jamo from thegreatwork got a diastema, which doesn't prove that he split his palate but it does show that the tongue can expand the palate plenty fine, fast enough to create diastemas and possibly split the palate. From personal experience I can say it's possible, though I haven't split my palate myself, mostly because it's too painful and I'd rather opt for slow expansion so that I don't damage the gums/periodontal ligament and the mandible can follow. Also like I said, I don't think it's about "moving" the maxilla, especially in any particular direction, it's about expanding the maxilla to it's genetic limit.
edit: Here's a video on how teeth shift
ruclips.net/video/LNi-1xEttrI/видео.html
Given the mechanism, logically there's no real "limit" unless you fully expand to your genetic potential and the size of your tongue. Within the gums/periodontal ligament the teeth can shift ever so slightly, ie they aren't fixed to the bone. So if you shift the teeth fractions of a mm and it's kept there new bone will form and that new position will be it's "set point", it will be in it's balance zone. Over time it's possible with these small changes to expand the maxilla considerably.
@Hood Legend To give a more definitive answer on how slow expansion needs to be to allow the mandible to follow, the periodontal membrane attaching the teeth to the alveolar bone is 1/16mm thick and that much is also regenerated every night, in other words rate of "remodeling" is 1/16 mm every day, same as the thickness of the periodontal membrane (ie the "wiggle room" for the teeth as they aren't entirely fixed to the bone). The only reason it's possible to expand faster than this is because the maxilla has a suture, however, the mandible doesn't, so if you expand faster than this your mandible won't follow, and it's not even a guarantee your mandible will follow at a pace of 1/16 mm per day UNLESS you are sufficiently chewing.
@Hood Legend There is, for example, you can find cases where they use cbct scan and "overlay" the before and after showing where bone growth occurred and even in adults the mandible does remodel, even if only slightly and the expansion was quite slow. Also, I don't know if facepulling is safe or not, I myself would avoid it, however, if you are going to use facepulling it would be most safe to not experiment with any pulling angles and don't be too excessive with the pulling forces. Finally, I made a bit of a blunder, the periodontal membrane is 1/16mm each side, that means if each tooth on both sides expands 1/16mm outwards that's 1/8mm of palatal expansion or about 1 mm per week. Mike Mew uses this rate of expansion even on adults so that's probably the fastest rate of expansion that's still safe, any faster and you'll be damaging the teeth/gums unless your expanding with a suture split/mse.
ruclips.net/video/QCNqbvOALZI/видео.html
Here's the video where Mike Mew talks about adult expansion.
Thank Allah this came to my recommended. Very insightful
As a woman, I actually don't want my lower jaw to be wider with mandibular distraction osteogenesis. I want the maxilla and especially zygoma's wider and the lower jaw more forward, but not wider.
kittendivine1 Even easier, MSE is the best option for expanding the maxilla and zygomatic arch ..Then a more common, less complex surgery; mandibular advancement
@CrazyFish Yes I know, but in the mandible, I'd prefer the expansion to be in the alveolar bone region only, and not the whole mandible which increases jaw width.
@@kittendivine1 Arent there expander for lower teeth arch ?
@@kittendivine1 hi, can I ask how you’ve been getting on with this? I’m female too and split my palate with my tongue and now I’m worrying a bit
@@tallisinwonderland4724 you've got to tell me how:)
I don't believe you NEED surgery or SFOT to expand the mandible. There are orthodontic devices that expand the mandible. Of course, it's gonna be difficult to find an orthodontist who is prepared to do this just like finding an orthodontist who is willing to expand the palate on adults, but it is possible without surgery. Dr Mew himself has a video on expansion of mandible.
@CrazyFish dunno but tests have shown that it's possible to achieve nonetheless.
Marty jr it is not possible, because expanding the lower would only flare out the lower teeth
with video u talking about
Which devices exactly?
Hi Marty Jr. So where is the best place to start in all of this? I have a deep overbite, sleep apnea and a narrow airway. What oral appliances are said to help with the mandible? I think MSE would help me but I certainly wouldn't want to make things worse.
You can practice yoga alone in your home for free too lol
How about not doing MSE at all?
Think of it this way
A device like MSE is designed for rapid palatal expansion (the very name MARPE emphasizes that).
What is the problem with this? Expansion as such is traumatizing for the suture, making the purpose of the suture itself lost.
It is torn apart and everything heals with scar tissue.
So muscle function and making gains of some sort with correct oral posture would theoretically no longer be possible.
Not to mention that it doesn't all stop there, very, very few cases have a favorable aesthetic outcome with MSE.
Since you are basically breaking the suture in two, the nose and midface will increase in size (not necessarily bad, it depends on the case) this goes against a slight, constant and natural pressure, what our body is designed for.
Plus if you expand that much with MSE you have to undergo the consequent treatment of braces and most likely do something surgical for the jaw.
All this to just artificially increase the airway volume.
Because we know one thing, MSE only expands laterally and the aesthetic results are somewhat unpredictable.
So think twice before undergoing MSE expansion, unless it is your last resort. Sometimes it is best to simply adopt the habits we should have always maintained and this will help more in the long run, we need to get in touch with nature again, losing contact with it is what brought us all here in the first place.
I recommend everyone finds a ortho that they TRUST and ask if they know a surgeon that is capable of what is needed and desired. You will be much better off.
So if agga, alf and the other expanders only effect the upper jaw growth then mewing should be the same correct? Meaning any growth from mewing could lead to an imbalance between the upper/lower jaw or your bite
i believe those appliances and correct tongue posture have their effects over a long period of time rather an appliance like mse which brute forces your maxilla open
türk oynuyor, that doesn’t answer the question. Is it possible or not for the mandible to follow the expansion of the maxilla?
with mse, probably not.
What if my mandible is wider and bigger than upper jaw? I want to expand it to MATCH mandible.
Wouldn't an acrylic plate or something like Transforce be an option for the lower dental arch?
How long did you use the MSE? I belive my lower jaw has expanded to mach my palate but apart from mewing I do some agressive facial exercises where my teeth are clinched. I know for a fact this has happened because I had to teeth on the lower jaw with were bending inwards very noticeable and made the space for my tongue very small and now they ha strengthen a lot and there's more space for my tongue.
so can u do mewing and suction hold without problem? after mse
Can palatal expansion worsen type two malocclusion?
Or mewing for that instance
so is homeblock not safe for a 27 year old who just wants to breathe a little better and get rid of apnea, i have narrow pallat
I have a question. What affects the face is just having bad body posture? Or what affects the face is having bad body posture, which causes your tongue not to be on the roof of your mouth. I say this because I have kinda bad body posture but my tongue is allways completely at the roof of my mouth.
Are they use or could SFOT or MSDO be used as well for sagittal expansion?
Yes it is called MDO, it is more expensive and difficult to find, here in Mexico is one of the best doctors that practice MDO, its in Puebla
I have top and bottom expanders from Vivos. I turn both top and bottom every 10 days. I have check in every 4-6 weeks to make sure progressing correctly. Post expansion will get tongue tie release and Invisalign to go wider. Why not use a bottom expander?
The mandible cannot be expanded in an adult, only the placement of the teeth within the bone can change.
what about thump pulling is it the same ?/ thump pulling with mewing make maxilla expand . If the maxilla and mandible are very close in size so I shouldn't do thump pulling /?
with EASE you cant get away without
I used my tongue when mewing which expanded my maxilla and i know my mandible expanded too because my bite stayed equal from up to down
Does the expanding with the MSE affect the root
of teeth like leading to root absorption
Yes, sometimes it damages the root canal
Hey Ron how do I get in contact with this Nawaz fellow? Cant find him on google at all.
Saffron tel#: 646 491-7133
@@joshs4171 thank you
Saffron That’s his NYC office ( Zubad Newaz)
Looking cute !!!
Could I go for several rounds of MSE? I really think 12 mm is not quite enough but I'm afraid for treatment of the tooth gaps post MSE
DARKSTRAND Official yes you can
19 As long as you don’t expand past the ramus or affect the coronoid process you are fine
How can you fix the diastema after MSE
Keplar power chains
@@wizard1370 Can you have Invisalign during the expansion or does it have to be after?
Does this only apply if you use facemask at the same time?
how could one expand the mandible so that the width of the jaw matches the width of the zygos in case of severe difference in width of the two
this is what I’m trying to figure out
The width at the zygomatic arches is matched, what isn't matched is the frontwards split of the palate suture.
What is your opinion on condylar remodelling? Did you have bite plates to decompress the condyles during your agga treatment? You lost 5mm of your forward remodeling, after that did your tmj feel comfortable in the new position? Thankyou
Sadie Stanton that is a great question! I have suffered with TMJ Disorder the last 12 or so years, part of me thinks this could help it, but a bigger part is worried it would make it so much worse. I got my tongue tie clipped recently and that has helped me tremendously with TMD and with correct tongue posture.
What's the usual intermolar width gain then?
Will mse help fix asymmetry? Would it also help with smile leveing?
I have moderated class 3 because of small maxillar, i saw all your videos, i want to do mse just for correct maloclusion, but i dont know who can do it to me in mu country, im from spain
Hello. We are BMK company which is a supplier of MSE.
Madrid, Spain: Dr. Ramón Domínguez-Mompell Micón (ramon.mompell@gmail.com)
Hello, Do you know if in Perú are supliers of MSE?
@@norubi Hello! Nice to meet you! If you send me an email. I'll let you know the information. (williambmk20@gmail.com)
Oye podemos hablar tu y yo? Es raro encontrar gente de España por estos lares
@@Byemiek claro, pero mejor por alguna red social, enviame un correo a alextovarserrano@gmail.com
What if I have a wide lower jaw but narrow palate?
Who do I talk to and where do I get this done?
Can I do this procedure? I am 44 years old :(
Yeah, body can do a lot, but it works according with the laws of physics, you can't expect body to defy them, especially when you do something as unnatural as MSE. When you do something like that, you're stuck in a cycle of fixing problems, and creating new ones as a result, unfortunately. To be honest, I would never do something like that even if I was severely crippled, I would still try to go natural way, and look harder into input in my body.
What is the natural way? The natural way is living in caves, eating hard uncooked food and having a big skull. That was eons ago, nowadays our jaws are underdeveloped. This is because of our own lifestyles, we’ve been eating soft cooked foods since the industrial age and there seems to be no end in sight to this problem. How many people have crooked teeth and need braces? How many people snore? Do you think this evolution can be fixed in one person’s lifespan in a “natural way”? Most people only discover they have a problem with their skeleton when they’re much older. MSE is for many their only option to treat their sleep disorder caused by their cranofacial deficiencies.
@@JustinRM20 Or you can come to Jesus and know the truth.
@@kseniyazarubina5484 Jesus does not exist. If he did, he would be the biggest scumbag on earth. Stop spreading misinformation under a video where people come to for their medical issues.
@@JustinRM20 I agree with the "stop spreading misinformation" part, but "the biggest scumbag"? Come on now!
@@munrana It was something said in anger, maybe a bit harsh and unnecessary. Religion has no place in healthcare though.
Wait is this also for the DNA appliance
If your goal is to expand your airway... why not just do MMA surgery? It will save a lot of time and money
Well he needed to widen his jaw first it’s usually the the first step before MMA. Sarpe then MMA
do i have to worry abt this if im 15.8 yrs old ?
You should get expanded for teens, if you have a narrow pallate
@@patrick.patt_ my orthodontist isnt letting me get it cause i dont have a crossbite
@@NickArabuli if you do end up getting braces in the future, always try to opt for expanders and not tooth extractions. tooth extractions will lead to a sunken and narrow face, which is what happened to me.
@@Iuffycs ive had braces for a while, also most of the time braces dont mean they will remove your teeth. Also i have a sunken face from mouthbreathing 😔
@@NickArabuli yeah I mean, most people who go and get braces need to at least take a tooth out so I was just pointing it out there. if you didn't have to that's good. I also have a sunken face from mouth breathing too, so you're not alone :))
My intermolar width is 22mm..
Get MSE ASAP
the american association of orthodontists is advertising on your videos :(
What about just rotating the bottom teeth outward
Braces. That’s in another video but that’s the only thing that uprights teeth…
You have great hair.
Thanks that's very kind.
@@JawHacks You are welcome. As someone who is affected by the Norwood Reaper (Androgenetic Alopecia) I have to jealously admit that you have great hair and a great hair line :=))
@@martinm.1967 I hope you find a way to make it work. I have confidence you will. You are a good man.
@@JawHacks Thanks. I already hopped onto BIG 3 (Finasteride, Minoxidil, Ketoconazole). Hopefully this will help :=)
@@martinm.1967 Good luck brotha
4:10
My dentist put me on a mse before my top braces thankfully but I’m near my end of treatment and I realized that I have a snag tooth that is permanent because they never expanded it all the way