Huge THANK YOU to Cheryl Bruno for calling last night and coming to my side to respond to yesterday's video. This is a very important conversation. Please join us!
Brian, Michelle makes it clear that her “end game” is to SEEK TRUTH and let people decide for themselves. You say she is causing “confusion”, never realizing that your work has caused just as much confusion. The first time I was ever really confused about the topic of polygamy was after reading the information on YOUR website Joseph smith’s polygamy. After finding your website years ago, before Michelle ever existed online, I read the evidence you presented and discovered for myself that polygamy could never be from God. Have you ever considered how many people have left the church after reading the material that you made available on your own website? Michelle is not causing confusion. The EVIDENCE is causing confusion. - What is confusing for people is being told they are supposed to believe something as horrific as polygamy came from a loving God. - What is confusing is being told they are supposed to believe in a God who teaches and expects honesty and integrity, would also authorize & condone all the deception and betrayal involved in the ungodly way they practiced it. - What is confusing is being told to believe God is unchanging and loving but for some absurd reasons that matter way more to God than shattering the hearts of His daughters, he sometimes commands men to treat women like property and sexual objects. -What is confusing is being told to believe in a God who gave men free agency but who also coerced Joseph with the threat of an Angel and flaming sword to practice polygamy; and then threatened all women in D&C 132 who don’t accept this practice with destruction. - What is confusing is that a God who delights in truth and plainness gives revelations denouncing polygamy but then in the very same revelation, contradicts himself by using “carefully worded” phrases to hide ambiguous “loopholes” to the law he just clearly explained (Jacob 2, D&C 101) - What is confusing is being told that God commanded polygamy to “raise up seed” when it’s been proven that the birth rate for women in polygamy is less than the birth rate of women in monogomous relationships. (population growth happens by increasing the birth rate per woman, not the birth rate per man. Significantly Increasing the birth rate for just one man or a few men is practicing eugenics). - What is confusing is being told that polygamy was a way to take care of the single women and the widows. When most of the women that were subject to plural marriage were not widows, and some were even already married to other men. - What is confusing is being told in my youth by church leaders that polygamy was necessary because there were more righteous men than women in the early days of the church, when the recent statistics that have come out show that more pioneer men actually crossed the plains than women. (BYU magazine published in 2015 that 28,000 men and 26,000 females crossed the plains) - What is confusing is being told that God “commanded” Abraham to practice Polygamy when nowhere in scripture does it say that it was “commanded” except in Joseph’s own revelation (D&C 132) - What is confusing is that a church that claims to be infallible (the only true church) chose to keep all this evidence obscure for so many years. And why is confusion such a bad thing anyway? Confusion encourages people to search for answers and the truth. Confusion encourages people to think for themselves. You sound like you are afraid of confusion Brian. It sounds like you would rather people be robots and blindly follow what someone else tells them to believe. Let’s not be afraid of confusion. The truth will always win.
Amen, Michelle. God commanding polygamy with an angel and a sword, regardless of Emma’s feelings, is outrageous and unacceptable. And it’s incredulous that Brian and the Church can’t see why that is unacceptable and in opposition to the character of God. This alone should make them reconsider their narrative.
My objection isn’t that it’s uncomfortable; it’s that an angel with a sword is coercive and violates agency, and it’s that Joseph was supposedly commanded to go behind Emma’s back and practice polygamy despite her objections - so the narrative is saying God is commanding JS to be unfaithful, deceitful, and break Emma’s heart. Sorry, but that is not something God would do.
@@txc-yw2ou I'm not saying the angel with the sword actually happened. I just find your rational lacking. God has done things that limit people's agency and even killed them. So that's not out of the realm of reality. I'll agree with you that receipt is highly suspect, but "unfaithful" as it is typically understood in monogamy is not Biblical. Same with breaking hearts. God never promises he will never break your heart or never ask you to do things you don't like.
I disagree. Imo, people do those things in the name of God; God doesn’t do those things. Yes, disciples of Christ can have their hearts broken, but God doesn’t command people to hurt others in that way. Jacob 2&3 confirm that God cares about the sorrows of women. God is Love, Light & Truth. See also D&C 121.
@@txc-yw2ou Come on, really? God flooded the earth to exterminate everyone but eight people. God commanded the nation of Israel to exterminate another nation. God plagued Egypt. He commanded Nephi to kill Laban. Look at what God allowed to happen to Job. I can go on and on. You know this stuff. You know God is just as capable of causing pain and suffering to advance His purposes as He is capable of causing warm fuzzies. So why come in here and tell me that God would never command something that would cause a woman to be uncomfortable?
Brian Hales' attitude is exactly what women have been subject to in this Church for a very long time. No one wants to hear the voices of women concerning their pain. My mother was 90 years old and was afraid to die because she was sure that my father had already selected his other wives, one of whom was his childhood girlfriend. If polygamy exists in heaven, I will be working in the gardens for eternity, rather than succumb to such heartache.
I was caring for my elderly father when to my surprise he gave me written instruction that I was supposed to get the work done to seal him to an old girlfriend who he had dated before he met my mother and she had died before she could marry and be sealed to anyone. You can only imagine my response regarding what he had that on his mind for 7 decades. So sad to think that his thoughts weren't necessarily looking forward to seeing my mom on the other side of the veil. We've been sold a pack of lies and it's high time the church did something about it and stop the pain and ongoing abomination even if its only in the minds of well meaning men and women. We all need to repent.
He doesn't want to believe that polygamy was NOT sanctioned by God because that opens a whole can of worms that he doesn't want or know how to deal with.
They worry about their membership in a church and the acceptance by men over the truth, and over the acceptance by Christ. No man shall ever enter into the rest of God here through Christ, nor in the worlds to come, if they persist in such folly. God bless you gals for the excellent work you are doing to awaken the LDS to gross errors within their doctrine that have troubled many for far too long. The Heavens rejoice at the truths and at the courage you both are demonstrating. It’s not that you have everything correct in your interpretations, though Michelle you are certainly correct regarding polygamy, it is that your hearts and desires and loyalties lie in seeking out the truth whatever it may be, and NOT in maintaining your reputations with men like the Pharisees of old. God bless you both! 😊❤️🙏
Michelle, you are absolutely & unequivocally right on this. YOU are the most researched, well-versed, and spiritually sound of anyone on this topic. Do NOT let them drag you down. They simply don't have valid arguments and you have allowed us to clearly shout, "The emperor has no clothes!!!"
Seems to me that is what Michelle's endgame is; so much evil speaking of the Lord's anointed with these two let-your-feelings-guide-your-interpretation ladies.
Michelle is smarter than these self appointed "scholars." Her arguments about Moses and Isaac not practicing polygamy and inconsistancies of 132, etc, etc, are slam dunks.
Will someone address this whole issue with section C1 and Jacob 2:30 about how somehow there are these hidden dual meanings? I used AI to analyze the chapters in Jacob and section 101 1835 D&C. Linguistically, the AI says there is no way the language in these scriptures support polygamy. Ask it anyway you want to, and AI adamantly denies that there is any linguistic justification for polygamy. So the sleight of hand on the wording isn’t supported by a linguistic analysis. Does that mean prophets can go back a re-define the linguistics of a former prophet?
Why is it that these different men can make episodes about or towards Michelle, then when she responds with an episode of transparency and the actual dialogue and interaction in defense of what she’s *actually* done or said… people accuse *her* of “drama?” Let’s drop the sexism and allow for all sides to respond how they will. Bullies, narcissists, and immature people are always threatened or irritated with truth… especially the truth of someone they want silenced.
Bottom line is, they don't want to face Michelle because she is up to speed on the research, especially these days. Brain wrote those books (from another person's research), a long time ago. Knowledge is perishable. Michelle digs in herself, so will retain a lot more. Thus, he'd be destroyed if they met up again. I thought his arguments were pretty weak the last time.
My biggest problem with Hales and almost every historian, apologist, and antiMormon is right here: 1:42:25 when Hales says “…the angel that he [Joseph] reported…” Joseph did not say an angel commanded him to be a polygamist. The plural wives of Brigham Young (and other women who were completely indoctrinated in and dependent on polygamy) claimed decades after Joseph was dead that he said that. The apologists’ and historians’ consistent refusal to honestly deal with the extreme bias of their sources, and then put their words in Joseph’s mouth, is deplorable.
Thank you for this. My wife and I have disagreed with our local leadership over how we paid our tithing that led to losing our temple recommends. It is not comfortable to disagree on even small things in our church culture, and I imagine even more so as a woman. You are doing a good thing. I can feel your sincerity, faith, and pain. I hope that you can continue to speak on this important topic. God bless you!
I watched about 10 minutes and found Brian Hales to be purposefully deceitful. I saw all i needed to see in those first several minutes. He won't be saved in his Arrogance and if he can't see that he fails to grasp even that most simple doctrine how could he possibly be in possession of the explanations of what he claims to be a more complicated doctrine!
From a strong 77 year old woman: Michelle, I stand all amazed. Thank you for your strength on this journey that we are all on. May the arms of the Lord ever hold you high. 🍀🌸
You also didn't call out Brian for using "Argumentum ad Populum" when he displayed a screen full of names as though the volume of names on the screen somehow made the specifics of each individual piece of evidence less important due to the sheer quantity of potentially bad evidence.
And, "Argumentum ad Ignorantiam" when he shows the Joseph Smith papers and implies that all of those books substantiate his claim, as though a person who reads them will find that they all support his argument, and its volumes on this subject, when it isn't. He is pushing the fact that since we haven't read and considered every one of those books, we must assume that, without evidence, they say what he claims, and have no shred of evidence to the contrary.
If you read the threads here there is a lot of thinking and behavior here that is similar to the accusatory spirit they see in men they have issues with. Just an observation.
Well said. Meekness, charity, humility, it's so hard to have those instead of pride. I am guilty so often and have to reflect and improve even when it feels good in the moment.
If you are ever excommunicated, know that you wouldn't be the first to be wrongfully exed. And that there is life outside the lds church and it's marvelous! ❤❤❤😮
I wasn't excommunicated but I've stepped out of the church bc of all the problems and especially the terrible beliefs and attitudes surrounding the polygamy issue. I feel free now to follow Christ directly. I haven't felt any loss of the spirit guiding me. I have more peace and hope in so many ways.
Your pleas with church leaders at the end to allow women a voice resonated SO strongly with me! Thank you, both, for speaking up. We should be able to say when something is offensive, or historically suspect, without risking excommunication.
You have to know Brian feels threatened since he only has 123 subscribers 🤣🤣. This movement is really picking up so panic has set in😱😱. Why he feels he has to defend se-× slavery is gross and extremely inappropriate
With all due respect, why is Cheryl not seeing the crystal clear clarity of section 101 (1835 version)? Why is Cheryl being a semi-apologist for Brian at times? Brian knows exactly what he is doing, and it's called being deliberately deceptive and nasty...
According to the manual "Daughters in My Kingdom" published by the church, it states "Wilford Woodruff, the fourth President of the Church, received a revelation that led to the Church's discontinuance of the practice of plural marriage. He wrote this revelation in a document known as the Manifesto." He said " The God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write."
D&C 42 also contains the revelation to Joseph Smith on the law of the church. In this recorded revelation Joseph writes "22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else. 23 And he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her shall deny the faith, and shall not have the Spirit; and if he repents not he shall be cast out. 24 Thou shalt not commit adultery; and he that committeth adultery, and repenteth not, shall be cast out."
I am reminded of the old saying, "hard work beats talent when talent fails to work hard". Michelle Stone is talented and she works hard. And that is why these two ole boys just got taken to the wood shed! LOL Well done, ladies, well done! I look forward to your discussion tomorrow on what's right vs who is right. :)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, ... but I am also be grateful for the work he did do. The resources his project made available are being used by people on both sides of these discussions. Many look at the documents without giving merit to his interpretation. Same things with the Joseph Smith Papers.
She has a book about polygamy coming out soon that hasn’t been released yet. If she changes her stance now her book might be obsolete right out of the chute. And I don’t mean this in a snarky way. She stands on the side that Joseph practiced polygamy so with a book coming out I could see the issue of feeling like you need to stick with your position at least for now to give your book credibility. 🤷🏻♀️
@@allthingsarepossiblethruchristI'd like to study more on whether or not Joseph was a Mason. Can you recommend any good resources? Everything I've read thus far points to him being one. There is clearly a connection to the Temple, which doesn't seem to be scriptural.
Sorry, Cheryl, but there is very little room to interpret 101 a different way, and it was not interpreted any differently historically. And if you look at all of Joseph Smith’s statements about polygamy, they are clear (and not in any way carefully worded denials). Brian is grasping at straws with this interpretation.
Misinterpreting 101 is like misinterpreting Jacob 1-3. One must be heavily biased defending polygamy willing to do mental gymnastics to read it as allowing room for God commanding polygamy to achieve exaltation.
Yeah, I agree there's very little room to interpret it a different way. It would be easier to make the case that it was a blatant lie to hide the truth than to make the case that it was a carefully worded "truth, .. (wink wink)". I mean either he's a lyer or he's not. and a carefully worded lie with a wink in it is still a lie (at least that's what my mother taught me, and I do not doubt my mother knew it)
D&C 42 supports the law of the church as the law of the Lord in stating "22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else. 23 And he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her shall deny the faith, and shall not have the Spirit; and if he repents not he shall be cast out. 24 Thou shalt not commit adultery; and he that committeth adultery, and repenteth not, shall be cast out."
Why does this remind me of the people who translated the Bible for the masses to be able to read? It's like they think they have to protect the masses from learning things for themselves and interpret it for them so they don't get "confused."
I said this on Steven’s channel. Brian Hales is a MD with a god complex. He has a very arrogant self righteous demeanor (like several cardio thoracic surgeons I’ve seen over my 45 yrs of PACU nursing) that look down on others, such as nurses. He is threatened by you and all the indisputable evidence you present that makes him look ignorant in his “scholarly” endeavors. He is a narcissist to the core and becomes so angry because he is exposed and he has to blame someone. He is NOT a humble man nor will he strive to be. Keep up the good work Michelle. You are amazing!
Brian Hales is correct that Joseph Smith originated and practiced polygamy, but his problem is that he still believes that Smith's revelation on celestial marriage is authentic, and that polygamy is God-ordained. By the way, I'm just a high school graduate, but I'm intelligent and rational enough to realize the facts about Joseph Smith practicing polygamy. There are simply too many accounts from a wide variety of eyewitness participants to deny that Smith was behind it. So one need not be a doctor, or be self-righteous, or condescending in order to accept and relate historical facts. Every legitimate Mormon historian who has ever written on the subject affirms that Joseph Smith originated it.
@@StompMom5 It's not like Brian couldn't have done the research himself. Numerous previous historians have published on the subject, including Fawn Brodie, George D. Smith, Michael Quinn, Gary Bergera, Richard van Wagoner, and Todd Compton. I bought and read Compton's 788-page book "In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith" when it first came out in 1998. Compton started out by studying Eliza R. Snow's journals, and that led him to spending five years researching ALL of Joseph Smith's 33+- plural wives. Probably half of everything Don Bradley furnished to Brian Hales can be found in Compton's book. You Joseph Smith polygamy deniers want a "villain" to "blame" the issue of Joseph Smith's polygamy on, so you attack Hales and Bradley, when the vast majority of it has been in the public domain ever since the events occurred. John C. Bennett first exposed Joseph Smith's polygamy practice in 1842; William Law, Austin Cowles, and Joseph H. Jackson wrote a lot more about it in 1844. Other Nauvoo-era eyewitness participants to the events added journals, letters, newspaper intervies, and legal affidavits over the years which help to flesh out the entire history. The problem you Joseph Smith polygamy deniers have is that you simply haven't studied the historical data for yourself, and you are relying on conspiracy theorists like Michelle Stone for your "truth."
I seem to recall that President Uchtdorf taught in General Conference that "leaders make mistakes" - a couple examples: President Kimball called the priesthood ban a "possible error", and President Nelson taught us that President Hinkley and President Monson made mistakes by promoting the term "Mormon" as the name of the church - providing a significant victory for Satan. So, we can have leaders endorse points of policy or doctrine that are later proven to be errors - and still be prophets. Regardless of who started polygamy (Joseph or Brigham) - could they still be prophets, but have committed an error in this case?
I think Brian Hales is not capable of hearing and understanding your answer is because he is an ostrich with his head in the sand and because he has already decided what your end game is and has an answer ready for that answer and is disappointed he can't give you that answer. In short, he is not LISTENING to your answer!
Someone on that video (before it was pulled) made the point that Brian isn’t just defending the church but also defending his own decisions since he is sealed to 3 women.
Exactly this. He’s technically a polygamist. He believes, by being sealed to 3 women, that he’ll be sealed to them all and living with them all for eternity, but claims he’s never wants to have to live it. It’s obvious he’s looking forward to it.
@@SummerAdamsdotcomIf you listen carefully in the video when he's talking about how much he doesn't like polygamy he says multiple times the phrase "in this life". He fully expects that he will live it and it will be a good thing in the next life.
The era of trusting in eminence ended in 2020. We are now in the era of trusting in evidence. To maintain relevance, those who once considered themselves authorities are now forced to answer a skeptical public's demands to "show me". The choice is to up your game or pass the baton.
It's so crazy that men who speak against polygamy are excommunicated but those who obsess over it are embraced🤦🤦♀️. Why don't we just call it what it what it is... the church of sex of mankind and leave it at that🤣🤣🤣 Brian has no light and I have no doubt whatsoever that he believes we're in the wrong for not practicing it. His efforts to prove Joseph slept with everyone is perverted, blasphemy and bearing false witness. That dude will have both God and Joseph to answer to
"His efforts to prove Joseph slept with everyone is perverted, blasphemy and bearing false witness." Good heavens, lady, Brian Hales didn't make this stuff up. It has been in the public record for more than a century. Multiple women whom Joseph Smith propositioned in Nauvoo turned him down and told other people about it. Joseph Smith had legal charges filed against him in 1844 "for living in an open state of adultery" with 20-year-old Maria Lawrence. And several other women swore legal affidavits that they had been Smith's plural wives and had had sex with him. Instead of trashing Brian Hales, has it occurred to you to just study the historical data for yourself first?
Wow. Men being men. They hold all the power and authority, especially within the church. Every man 12 years of age and older has some form of priesthood, and gets conditioned and trained to lead, influence, direct, and control-be it people, meetings, or outcomes. That is some difficult programming to undo, but I believe God-fearing, wise, and courageous wives and mothers can help. Michelle, I’m sorry your heart got hurt and your incredible mind and hard work have been dismissed. But keep going. You are speaking for countless numbers of women past, present, and future. You’re over the target 🎯.
I am so sorry you were treated like that (again) by Brian Hales. What a bully he is. I am angry that he is obviously trying to get you excommunicated. There are so many who admire you and what you are doing. You are a big part of why a 100 pound weight was lifted from my heart after an entire lifetime of thinking polygamy was something I had to just endure possibly in the next life. I am so grateful that it was never true. I'm sure there are many of here who would do anything we could for you and your mission. Thanks again:)
I think it's very important what Michelle has done for the women of the church. Even if the official church sticks to the same narrative about polygamy, women of the church can at least live their life in peace and be assured that no polygamy will exist after this life in the Spirit World or Celestial Kingdom. God will not just allow their husbands to shop for many wives out there.
Michelle, thank you from the bottom of our hearts for all you do and for the spiritual enlightenment you bring. Stay strong and keep unveiling truth. Our prayers of strength and support to you are ongoing 🙏🙏
Way to stand up for yourself Michelle! 👏🏻 Also, kudos to Cheryl for raising her voice to speak truth to power and patriarchy alongside Michelle. Bravo!👏🏻
God knows your heart and truth! And many will be told in the end I know you not...or you know me not. for they truly do not know Him and it will come out in the end which maybe sooner then most think. Love is the highest law. Lust is polygamy.
I don’t know if somebody said this already, but him bringing Brian on to talk about your work is unfair like having someone listen to only an enemy of Joseph Smith to learn about Joseph Smith is unfair.
Yes. Clearly she doesn't literally mean magic was used. We use that kind of expression all the time in our culture. Maybe Brian is above that kind of "little people" speech.
Brian’s attitude and behavior truly is appalling. I watched the original episode when he came on your podcast and was disgusted. The fact that he seemed to think there was nothing wrong with it was shocking. He acted similarly on Steve’s podcast. It’s shameful.
Brian Hales is correct that Joseph Smith originated and practiced polygamy, but his problem is that he still believes that Smith's revelation on celestial marriage is authentic, and that polygamy is God-ordained.
@@randyjordan5521I’m specifically speaking on his behavior - not whether he is correct or incorrect. I don’t really know if JS was a polygamist or not and as someone who isn’t LDS I’m not really impacted on that point. The idea that polygamy could ever be God ordained and commanded is an awful one. The historic Christian position has always been anti-polygamy. It’s surprising to me that Steve did not bring that up in the interview!
@@saralyg When you are an authority on a subject, it is difficult to maintain an attitude of civility with someone who is uninformed or deluded and is unwilling to accept historical facts. Brian Hales trying to discuss the issue of who started polygamy with Michelle is like arguing with a flat-earther. The historical evidence that Joseph Smith originated and practiced polygamy is exhaustive and comes from a wide variety of disparate eyewitness participants and other insiders. The idea that Michelle Stone refuses to accept that evidence does not make it magically disappear. "The idea that polygamy could ever be God ordained and commanded is an awful one." I agree completely! So, since Joseph Smith is the man who brought polygamy into Mormonism, he is the man you should direct your criticism at, rather than Brian Hales or anyone else.
I'm sorry these men are talking about you like this, Michelle. I personally think you are doing what God has called you to do and I want you to know that there are many people supporting you and your voice on polygamy. The scriptures show that good people often don't have easy lives. Stay strong!
Pynakkker wants to JS Jr. to be a polygamist because it reinforces the idea that Evangelical as a religion is better than LDS, which is why he won't have Stone on.
Brian Hales never gives any Scriptures to support his position. All he does is quote General authorities in the early church like Brigham Young, John Taylor, Joseph F. Smith, etc…who were all polygamists. We are told in the Scriptures that we’re not to put our faith and trust in men but in God and Jesus Christ. God doesn’t change neither does He vary from that which He has said. Jacob 2 is so plain that polygamy is an abomination, a whoredom, a crime, etc…to put the polygamy revelation 132 on to God is unbelievable! To believe that Joesph Smith received this revelation is saying that it actually came from God, this is abhorrent!! Brian Hales PhD hasn’t convinced me of anything other than he’s completely put his trust in men instead of God.
@@cherylclute4981 Interesting. Where does the Bible condemn polygyny? I haven't found it. I've seen some types of polygyny condemned, but not universally.
Dear Michelle… Lift your head and know the Savior is and has been there with you. From some old Indian records it says women already have the Priesthood given by Our Mother in Heaven by way of their very natures. Men must earn it here. If the sword incident even happened it wasn't from God. Our loving God gives all their free agency. After Joseph brigham destroyed the church. Just feel and know how wonderful it will be to have that society in place as when it was recorded in 4th Nephi on earth. There are lots of good people in the church but we could be so much more by believing and doing what the Savior is teaching us in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon says all churches will be destroyed. Only the Church of the First Born will bring in the millennium. Continue with your great work in love. HE is with you. ❤
Exactly, all churches are in the great and abominable now. All are aligning with their mother church. They love to get together and work on man projects, to be seen of men. Yes we await the coming servant. Thanks
@MichaelEllisYT Oh heavens no...women can hold the priesthood easily. We have the same right you do so.....🤣🤣🤣 Different when it comes to man stuff huh? You own women and the priesthood. You must feel so special
A direct descendant of David Whitmer who had visions, etc, said this: "On the Aaronic level men hold the Priesthood because they need to learn how to serve others.’ Women don’t need the Priesthood because they already serve others, they already know how so they don’t need to learn it. On the Melchizedek level the woman share in the Priesthood with their husbands, but they don’t need their husband there to do it. They can anoint with oil, they can bless, they did it back in Joseph Smith’s time, and in Brigham Young’s time. On the Patriarchal level they hold the priesthood independent of their husband and some can have a higher Priesthood than their husband has but it is all independent." "It wasn’t that the men had the Priesthood and the women had nothing. It’s that the women didn’t need to have it because they didn’t have the natural man’s instincts of “me first.” All my kids would know that if they came up to me and asked for a bite off of my plate I never stuck in their mouth the one I was saving for my last bite. You know what I mean? There is the best part of any steak. The wife will always give that to any kid. They’ll even give the best steak to their husband, won’t they? Naturally, that’s because they already know how to serve others. Men have to learn that so they’re given the Priesthood in order to put a harness on them and make them do it. Make them go home teaching, make them pass out fast offerings. They’ve got it all twisted around here they say, “gee, look at me I’ve got power.” I’m up here passing the sacrament.” All it is, is that this is the only way we can get you to learn to do what the women already know. They don’t need it, they don’t have to do it." The sacrifice in childbirth is also mentioned.
You’re awesome Michelle and Cheryl. Love your work!!!! Keep it up and don’t feel burdened by the dogmatic views of those trying to fit into the tribe!!
I love all your extra content lately! I know it can't be all the time, but it sure is an unexpected gift to see a new video out on a day other than Sunday❤
Steve and Brian's presentation was nauseating; full of untruth and propaganda! The truth in the comments however should have been preserved. That is where the only fresh air was!
Michelle, you have far greater power and authority from the Holy Spirit of God within you when you share the deep insights and truths about polygamy as you do, than any man who is trying to support such evils from a position of delusion and conformance. When we speak truth the spirit of truth is with us, as is the spirit of Christ. Do not fear the judgments of those who seek to assert authority over you, for YOU are being held in the arms of Jesus, and in the arms of angels you know not of who are rejoicing at your courage, and no man will EVER be able to take your standing with God away. Keep pursuing your passion as you have done, always following the still small voice of God within you, and you shall continue to do great things to help enlighten the minds of many, and strengthen their testimonies of Jesus Christ ❤️🙏
If it ever comes down to them trying to ex you, just let us know and we will pull together and help them see the light. Money talks and when they start losing loads of tax, oh, I mean tithing money they will get real humble real quick. We love you and what you are doing.
To me it just seemed like hales was just holding the standard Mormon line. I wasn’t surprised by anything he said. Criticizing leaders culturally is very new to Mormonism.
Thank you, Cheryl and Michelle! That was awesome. Stay the course! I think it's great to have two thoughtful, intelligent people representing both sides of this so that we can get a fuller picture and hopefully arrive at the truth surrounding this all-important topic.
14:10 in fairness, Steve has a pretty good grasp on our culture, and culturally…he’s not wrong. We are absolutely made to believe that if you aren’t lockstep with the Q15, you’re in dangerous territory. I don’t agree with this obviously, but…
Just heard the end of this podcast...wow, I had no idea Brian Hales had said that Michelle should be kicked out of the church. I've already felt he didn't have the Spirit with him, wow, now I see he has been led by the devil himself. The irony out of all this would be if his wife left him. He really bugs me now way more than he did before!
She's passed away from illness. But I always assume her life with him must have been miserable because she didn't like polygamy and he's so merciless about it. I really don't know if she'll look forward to being with him forever....
Whether Michelle is kicked out of the church or not is up to the church leaders. There are multiple people who have openly "anti-Mormon" websites/RUclips channels, but they haven't been kicked out. The church is more lenient with dissenters these days than they were back in the days of Boyd K. Packer and the "September Six." So whether she's kicked out or not, her problem is that she makes numerous assertions and offers numerous opinions which contradict established, documented facts of Mormon history. Since she does not have the ability to alter history, maybe her best move would be to resign from the church and start up her own cult of troo believers. She supposedly has 17k subscribers. She might be able to make a pretty good living off of their donations.
I thought Steve seemed very humble and sincere in his apology. Whenever I’ve seen Brian he seems annoyed and unable to say that any of the people in his church are wrong. I’m not sure why he feels that Joseph had to be a polygamist when it seems like there is more, or at the very least equal evidence that he was not. Even if Joseph had been it would have still been wrong and only adds credibility to the belief that Joseph was inspired with the Book of Mormon. Why make something up and then go so much against it.
The part I got before it was taken down, was that we are supposed to believe “our leaders”, before examining what historians have researched, I found it quite offensive, maybe Brian needs to pass the baton and be done ✔️
" I’m not sure why he feels that Joseph had to be a polygamist" Duh, it's because the historical record makes it abundantly clear that he was. Do you think that Brian Hales just made that idea up? Are you not aware that the fact that Joseph Smith originated and practiced polygamy has been known about and published since 1842?
@@randyjordan5521 I’m aware of the claims however there seems to just as much literature and research that comes to the exact opposite conclusion as well. Plus what Joseph, his wife and son all said. Just trying to look at both sides and it doesn’t seem so cut and dry. Hence why I’m not sure why the only conclusion is that he was. Some things could have been hearsay, or people trying to spread rumors. Maybe there was confusion with terminology? Maybe Brigham wanted it to be true, or perhaps he did and regretted it later? There are no children with Joseph’s DNA, so scant evidence that they were consummated. I haven’t heard anything from Brian that refutes the criticisms of his arguments is all and his isn’t the only opinion with good points.
@@brettsmithphotography2463 Sounds to me that your primary problem is that you simply haven't studied the subject well enough to make informed conclusions. The evidence that Joseph Smith started and practiced polygamy is exhaustive, and comes from a wide variety of eyewitnesses, both friendly to and in opposition to Smith. Every legitimate historian who has ever published on the subject concurs that Smith started it. I suggest that you ignore what Smith's wife and son said about polygamy decades later, and instead study the sources which were actually published during the events, beginning in 1842.
@@randyjordan5521 Perhaps not, I like to think I'm keeping an open mind and not becoming dogmatic about historical events. It's very hard to verify things when we can no longer talk to those involved. Lot's of lies were spread about Joseph in other matters so why not this? Some of the things I've read or heard opposing his Polygamy gives me pause about it being a slam dunk. I guess legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder with historians. It seems like there were accounts where Joseph said he would prove what they said false and put out many messages affirming the belief in one wife. It was never official church doctrine during his lifetime and only became so when he could no longer give an opinion. If anything Brigham had a lot to gain by reworking the narrative to fit his own evidence of a desire for and practice of polygamy. So perhaps those variety of witnesses were tainted even at the time by something like that? It's seems likely we will never know 100%. But again if whatever he was doing was polygamy where are all his children by the other women, why was Joseph himself so adamant in his statements during his life and only afterwards these things came out? Why would he discount what he said unless you think he's a liar? Also why would we discount his family who would know the truth and loved him? Emma had no love for Brigham it would seem. Could that be because she felt he wasn't being honest about things? Even today when rumors fly it is often those most close who know the truth amidst the tabloids. Either way Joseph Smith was a man that made mistakes and it doesn't change the fact that if he indeed was involved in polygamy it was wrong as is stated in the Book of Mormon and other official church writings. The way I see it either he was a liar and a polygamist or he wasn't and his name was slandered to give authority to other men's wicked desires. Right now I'm open to either I just don't think you can say anyone living knows the 100% truth and there is no room for misinterpretation of past events. If your mind is made up though you're probably done searching, but like you have suggested I'll keep reading and listening to things on the subject and see which arguments match up the best to my mind.
Brian Hales uses motivated reasoning in justifying Joseph’s polygamy. Michelle uses motivated reasoning in denying Joseph’s polygamy. Although Brian is clearly not objective when it comes to the justifications of Joseph’s behavior, at least he’s is honest enough to not cherry pick the facts. At least he acknowledges that Joseph practiced polygamy at all. Michelle on the other hand is like watching a flat earther. The comment she made that she simply “follows the facts” was hilarious. Everything she does starts with a conclusion and elevating all evidence that makes her case. Ya know, just like a flat earther.
Brian doesn't use "motivated reasoning." His website and his comments are based on established, documented facts of history. These facts have been published by numerous people beginning in 1842. By contrast, Michelle's entire line of thinking re: Mormon polygamy is to be in denial of established, documented facts of history. And as you say, she uses the exact same thought processes as flat-earth believers and other conspiracy theorists do. In fact, the ex-Mormon RUclipsr who goes by "RFM" produced a video in which he uses that analogy. I suggest you watch it. It's called "The boy who kicked conspiracy theories." I have told Michelle multiple times that her thought processes are the same as these people who believe the conspiracy theory that Paul McCartney was killed in a car wreck in 1966, and has been impersonated by an impostor all these years. The idea of course is ridiculous, but those people still repeat it to this day. Michelle wants to believe that Joseph Smith had nothing to do with polygamy because she wants to maintain an image that Smith was not a liar or an adulterer. IOW, she wants to hold a Disney fairy tale prince version of Smith, because she doesn't like the man he really was. So her method of maintaining her chosen image of Smith is to call dozens of his closest friends, relatives, and followers a bunch of liars.
There is so much emotion surrounding this topic, and you have always been very upfront and vulnerable in sharing yourself with your audience, Michelle. Thank you for that. I pray that Brian and Steve will be able to hear what they haven’t understood before as they watch this.
I would say Pynakker isn’t really a true BoM believer if he goes to antithetical sources for plain and precious truths. But once one has disproven polygamy as a thing, the confusion of the prophets’ authority begins
I've liked Steve's channel for the most part... but i have been uncomfortable with a few aspects. I know he's not lds, but the term priestcraft comes to mind, which is in part men building themselves up to become popular in the eyes of the world. His earlier work is more humble and sincere imo. Perhaps finding his specialty niche has gone to his head? I guess we'll see where things go from now.
I've watched him a bit here and there, but was pretty unimpressed with his video last week where he kept reminding us over and over that he had broke the story about the Kirtland temple being sold. I felt like I was back in grammar school with "that" kid.
He took down that episode and gave a really sincere, genuine apology, I was actually really impressed at the humility. I don’t know that he should have taken it down because because the more Brian talks the weaker the polygamist arguments become. Good ideas and truth will work it’s self out
I could not agree with this more 👍👍👍 Let everyone who believes in polygamy bring their best arguments, air them out thoroughly, and let the “polygamy deniers” bring our best. Then people can decide for themselves.
I just watched Steve's most recent apology and he deserves to be acknowledged for it. I didn't even know who he was until this episode. But I found his apology in the comments here and he admits that he was wrong and didn't treat Michelle fairly.
Brian Hales has a way of insinuating that Polygamy deniers need to use mental gymnastics to make their claims. IMO the opposite is true! Just listening to Brian Hales talk oozes of mental gymnastics when he tries to take a thread of substance and spin it as a truth. It’s embarrassing when members feel the need to listen to him try and justify his points. Keep up the good work Michelle, keep seeking answers no matter where it takes you! Don’t be bullied and you have ALOT of supporters who have your back💯
Joseph Smith originated polygamy in Mormonism, and he had at least 33 plural wives. Brian Hales did not invent that idea. It has been established, documented fact beginning in 1842. Numerous Mormon historians have written thousands of pages on the subject.
Also, when I go to view Steve’s channel I can’t see or find his apology video. I had to search through my history from yesterday. Is anyone else having this issue?
Ugh, I’m just commenting at 1:18:48 right after Stephen said your place is in the church so you need to accept what your prophets say is just ouch to me. It’s like saying that if you want to be in this church then you need to sit down and shut up. Unfortunately, I think a lot of members agree with him, and probably why so many leave! I’m glad there are people like you willing to speak up from within. Most won’t.
Even IF Joseph Smith taught eternal marriage was an eternal principal, it does not mean his followers practiced it the way he meant them to, if at all in this life.
It’s like he is definitely trying too hard to want to bring back polygamy! Doesn’t he? He’ll refute the scriptures and say that’s not what it really means, and then turns it around and says it’s giving us some leeway for multiple wives. Brian Hales is screaming out to bring back polygamy & excuse the bad behavior of Brigham Young and others who had multiple plural wives while ignoring the Scriptures in the book of Mormon and in the Bible concerning the matter.
Joseph Smith originated polygamy in Mormonism, and he had at least 33 plural wives. Brigham Young advocated and practiced polygamy exactly as Joseph had taught it to him and others.
Well...i just finished listening to the entire video... I'm so sorry this happened and also feel disgusted with Steve... he's lost at least one sub. I wouldn't be surprised if many feel the same. I appreciate your guest and her modeling how to disagree appropriately without belittling and being dismissive. (And i hope she changes her mind about Joseph when presented with new thoughts, ideas, and material!)
Don’t unsubscribe from his channel over this. He’s a good guy and feels badly about what happened. Allow him space to make mistakes and learn from them. 🙏🏻
Cheryl hit it right on the head. Brian has a good heart and good intentions but doesn't have the skills to portray his words in a way that would portray that. He is definitely not a people person.
Michelle, I want to say that you're doing amazing work. I have always been repulsed by the concept of polygamy, but chose to put it on my "shelf" as one of those things I would understand better whenever God chose to reveal more. I recently started watching your videos, and now I'm hooked. Ironically, I was motivated to search out your work because of a post Avraham Gileadi made condemning "polygamy deniers," saying that they're going to have to answer to God at the judgment bar for deliberately confusing everyone on this subject. I thought that was an awful thing to say. I learned from Avraham Gileadi to read the scriptures very carefully and believe what the text actually says, not rely on other peoples' interpretations. So I did that -- I spent a fair amount of time carefully studying Isaiah chapters 3 and 4 and Jacob chapter 2, as well as other related scriptures, and the clear message I got from it is that God does NOT condone polygamy. Anyways, because of your meticulous work in showing the original historical documents, I am now confident and thrilled to say that I truly believe that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist and that Emma Smith was telling the truth!! It feels so good to say that. It really confirms what my "gut" was telling me all along. Truth will win out eventually. It's obvious to me in this dispute who is genuine and who isn't -- and YOU are the genuine, humble truth seeker and the transparent one. I agree that "faith" is not really faith unless based on truth!! I'm so sorry for the despicable acts of cruelty some are willing to go to to shut you down. I pray that God will continue to hold you up and give you the strength to carry on with what you're doing, because I firmly believe that you're bringing the truth to light.
I value free speech and that is why I do not blame the host for the guests. Even if they’re hosting an idiot- the idiot can speak for themselves ! And the viewers can judge for themselves. And sometimes controversial conversations can lead to great discussion that is productive. But to me - this was way too harsh on Steve who already appeared to feel genuinely bad and intimidated from people blaming him for Brian’s words. Telling other people who they can speak to or how they can think etc? Brian shouldn’t do that to you and you shouldn’t do it either - but that’s just my opinion. He and you can if you want to. I’m a big girl so I can cope if people all think I’m wrong about that and I don’t think anyone owes me anything. I do not want special treatment as a female. And I’m not going to blame all men for the stuff some men do. Same as I don’t speak for all women or support all women or put all women into the same bucket. I don’t think Brian and Steve are the same person. And who cares is some man says you should shut up? Steve isn’t doing that. And obviously if men tell us to shut up- we don’t do that! Unless we want or choose to. But it appears Steve has shut up cos he feels bad and has some compassion and doesn’t want conflict - thought grown ups could have different opinions and discussions. You two are obviously women with loud voices and plenty to say- Some of what you say is offensive to many but they shouldn’t expect you to stop speaking or invite them to your channel. And speak for yourselves - not all women agree with what you’re saying - not all women are focused on men’s views of them.
My sealing was cancelled with my divorce... but I'm not worried about my kids because I think biology survives death. Remember the verse in D&C 132 about "all contracts, oaths, vows, etc."? It's supposed to be a comprehensive list, but you'll notice that biology is missing from the list. Maybe that's why Joseph never sealed any parents to their biological children i.e., because it was unnecessary. Just a thought,
"Faith demoting?" Brian Hales' views on polygamy are exactly in line with those of Utah LDS church leaders. Have you ever read the church's essays on Nauvoo-era plural marriage?
@@randyjordan5521 Yes faith demoting and I do care who says what. What of priesthood bans, Adam god, blood oaths, these were are practiced and then given up
The truth can stand to be questioned. If it's true, they have nothing to worry about. If it's all based on lies... that's another matter entirely.
You said it perfectly
Brian, Michelle makes it clear that her “end game” is to SEEK TRUTH and let people decide for themselves. You say she is causing “confusion”, never realizing that your work has caused just as much confusion. The first time I was ever really confused about the topic of polygamy was after reading the information on YOUR website Joseph smith’s polygamy. After finding your website years ago, before Michelle ever existed online, I read the evidence you presented and discovered for myself that polygamy could never be from God. Have you ever considered how many people have left the church after reading the material that you made available on your own website? Michelle is not causing confusion. The EVIDENCE is causing confusion.
- What is confusing for people is being told they are supposed to believe something as horrific as polygamy came from a loving God.
- What is confusing is being told they are supposed to believe in a God who teaches and expects honesty and integrity, would also authorize & condone all the deception and betrayal involved in the ungodly way they practiced it.
- What is confusing is being told to believe God is unchanging and loving but for some absurd reasons that matter way more to God than shattering the hearts of His daughters, he sometimes commands men to treat women like property and sexual objects.
-What is confusing is being told to believe in a God who gave men free agency but who also coerced Joseph with the threat of an Angel and flaming sword to practice polygamy; and then threatened all women in D&C 132 who don’t accept this practice with destruction.
- What is confusing is that a God who delights in truth and plainness gives revelations denouncing polygamy but then in the very same revelation, contradicts himself by using
“carefully worded” phrases to hide ambiguous “loopholes” to the law he just clearly explained (Jacob 2, D&C 101)
- What is confusing is being told that God commanded polygamy to “raise up seed” when it’s been proven that the birth rate for women in polygamy is less than the birth rate of women in monogomous relationships. (population growth happens by increasing the birth rate per woman, not the birth rate per man. Significantly Increasing the birth rate for just one man or a few men is practicing eugenics).
- What is confusing is being told that polygamy was a way to take care of the single women and the widows. When most of the women that were subject to plural marriage were not widows, and some were even already married to other men.
- What is confusing is being told in my youth by church leaders that polygamy was necessary because there were more righteous men than women in the early days of the church, when the recent statistics that have come out show that more pioneer men actually crossed the plains than women. (BYU magazine published in 2015 that 28,000 men and 26,000 females crossed the plains)
- What is confusing is being told that God “commanded” Abraham to practice Polygamy when nowhere in scripture does it say that it was “commanded” except in Joseph’s own revelation (D&C 132)
- What is confusing is that a church that claims to be infallible (the only true church) chose to keep all this evidence obscure for so many years.
And why is confusion such a bad thing anyway? Confusion encourages people to search for answers and the truth. Confusion encourages people to think for themselves. You sound like you are afraid of confusion Brian. It sounds like you would rather people be robots and blindly follow what someone else tells them to believe. Let’s not be afraid of confusion. The truth will always win.
AMEN!
Great comment!!
That is one of the best summary to this subject!!
Amen, Michelle. God commanding polygamy with an angel and a sword, regardless of Emma’s feelings, is outrageous and unacceptable. And it’s incredulous that Brian and the Church can’t see why that is unacceptable and in opposition to the character of God. This alone should make them reconsider their narrative.
I don't think it's ever written that God will only command things we are comfortable with or that we want to do.
My objection isn’t that it’s uncomfortable; it’s that an angel with a sword is coercive and violates agency, and it’s that Joseph was supposedly commanded to go behind Emma’s back and practice polygamy despite her objections - so the narrative is saying God is commanding JS to be unfaithful, deceitful, and break Emma’s heart. Sorry, but that is not something God would do.
@@txc-yw2ou I'm not saying the angel with the sword actually happened. I just find your rational lacking. God has done things that limit people's agency and even killed them. So that's not out of the realm of reality. I'll agree with you that receipt is highly suspect, but "unfaithful" as it is typically understood in monogamy is not Biblical. Same with breaking hearts. God never promises he will never break your heart or never ask you to do things you don't like.
I disagree. Imo, people do those things in the name of God; God doesn’t do those things.
Yes, disciples of Christ can have their hearts broken, but God doesn’t command people to hurt others in that way. Jacob 2&3 confirm that God cares about the sorrows of women. God is Love, Light & Truth. See also D&C 121.
@@txc-yw2ou Come on, really? God flooded the earth to exterminate everyone but eight people. God commanded the nation of Israel to exterminate another nation. God plagued Egypt. He commanded Nephi to kill Laban. Look at what God allowed to happen to Job. I can go on and on. You know this stuff. You know God is just as capable of causing pain and suffering to advance His purposes as He is capable of causing warm fuzzies. So why come in here and tell me that God would never command something that would cause a woman to be uncomfortable?
Brian Hales' attitude is exactly what women have been subject to in this Church for a very long time. No one wants to hear the voices of women concerning their pain. My mother was 90 years old and was afraid to die because she was sure that my father had already selected his other wives, one of whom was his childhood girlfriend. If polygamy exists in heaven, I will be working in the gardens for eternity, rather than succumb to such heartache.
That’s so sad. She should have felt comforted in her sealing to your father, not distressed.
Heartbreaking 💔
My Mother-in-Law was afraid her husband was finding other women, too! Such evil to scare women with!
I really really hope that the men in power will listen to these comments. It is far past time to stop ignoring the pain of women.
I was caring for my elderly father when to my surprise he gave me written instruction that I was supposed to get the work done to seal him to an old girlfriend who he had dated before he met my mother and she had died before she could marry and be sealed to anyone. You can only imagine my response regarding what he had that on his mind for 7 decades. So sad to think that his thoughts weren't necessarily looking forward to seeing my mom on the other side of the veil. We've been sold a pack of lies and it's high time the church did something about it and stop the pain and ongoing abomination even if its only in the minds of well meaning men and women. We all need to repent.
He doesn't want to believe that polygamy was NOT sanctioned by God because that opens a whole can of worms that he doesn't want or know how to deal with.
That comes from a superiority complex because he had a devouring mother. Love, a Freudian.
They worry about their membership in a church and the acceptance by men over the truth, and over the acceptance by Christ. No man shall ever enter into the rest of God here through Christ, nor in the worlds to come, if they persist in such folly.
God bless you gals for the excellent work you are doing to awaken the LDS to gross errors within their doctrine that have troubled many for far too long. The Heavens rejoice at the truths and at the courage you both are demonstrating. It’s not that you have everything correct in your interpretations, though Michelle you are certainly correct regarding polygamy, it is that your hearts and desires and loyalties lie in seeking out the truth whatever it may be, and NOT in maintaining your reputations with men like the Pharisees of old. God bless you both! 😊❤️🙏
Michelle, you are absolutely & unequivocally right on this. YOU are the most researched, well-versed, and spiritually sound of anyone on this topic. Do NOT let them drag you down. They simply don't have valid arguments and you have allowed us to clearly shout, "The emperor has no clothes!!!"
My question is what is Brian’s objective, goal and end game? It seems to me, his goal and end game is to see Michelle excommunicated.
And maybe also to live plural marriage in the afterlife? He is sealed to more than one woman.
Seems to me that is what Michelle's endgame is; so much evil speaking of the Lord's anointed with these two let-your-feelings-guide-your-interpretation ladies.
Michelle is smarter than these self appointed "scholars."
Her arguments about Moses and Isaac not practicing polygamy and inconsistancies of 132, etc, etc, are slam dunks.
Will someone address this whole issue with section C1 and Jacob 2:30 about how somehow there are these hidden dual meanings? I used AI to analyze the chapters in Jacob and section 101 1835 D&C. Linguistically, the AI says there is no way the language in these scriptures support polygamy. Ask it anyway you want to, and AI adamantly denies that there is any linguistic justification for polygamy. So the sleight of hand on the wording isn’t supported by a linguistic analysis. Does that mean prophets can go back a re-define the linguistics of a former prophet?
Why is it that these different men can make episodes about or towards Michelle, then when she responds with an episode of transparency and the actual dialogue and interaction in defense of what she’s *actually* done or said… people accuse *her* of “drama?” Let’s drop the sexism and allow for all sides to respond how they will.
Bullies, narcissists, and immature people are always threatened or irritated with truth… especially the truth of someone they want silenced.
Bottom line is, they don't want to face Michelle because she is up to speed on the research, especially these days. Brain wrote those books (from another person's research), a long time ago. Knowledge is perishable. Michelle digs in herself, so will retain a lot more. Thus, he'd be destroyed if they met up again. I thought his arguments were pretty weak the last time.
Sexism/misogyny is central to polygamy, that's why! You're absolutely correct.
My biggest problem with Hales and almost every historian, apologist, and antiMormon is right here: 1:42:25 when Hales says “…the angel that he [Joseph] reported…” Joseph did not say an angel commanded him to be a polygamist. The plural wives of Brigham Young (and other women who were completely indoctrinated in and dependent on polygamy) claimed decades after Joseph was dead that he said that. The apologists’ and historians’ consistent refusal to honestly deal with the extreme bias of their sources, and then put their words in Joseph’s mouth, is deplorable.
Thank you for this. My wife and I have disagreed with our local leadership over how we paid our tithing that led to losing our temple recommends. It is not comfortable to disagree on even small things in our church culture, and I imagine even more so as a woman. You are doing a good thing. I can feel your sincerity, faith, and pain. I hope that you can continue to speak on this important topic. God bless you!
I watched about 10 minutes and found Brian Hales to be purposefully deceitful. I saw all i needed to see in those first several minutes. He won't be saved in his Arrogance and if he can't see that he fails to grasp even that most simple doctrine how could he possibly be in possession of the explanations of what he claims to be a more complicated doctrine!
From a strong 77 year old woman: Michelle, I stand all amazed. Thank you for your strength on this journey that we are all on. May the arms of the Lord ever hold you high. 🍀🌸
You also didn't call out Brian for using "Argumentum ad Populum" when he displayed a screen full of names as though the volume of names on the screen somehow made the specifics of each individual piece of evidence less important due to the sheer quantity of potentially bad evidence.
And, "Argumentum ad Ignorantiam" when he shows the Joseph Smith papers and implies that all of those books substantiate his claim, as though a person who reads them will find that they all support his argument, and its volumes on this subject, when it isn't. He is pushing the fact that since we haven't read and considered every one of those books, we must assume that, without evidence, they say what he claims, and have no shred of evidence to the contrary.
If you read the threads here there is a lot of thinking and behavior here that is similar to the accusatory spirit they see in men they have issues with. Just an observation.
Well said. Meekness, charity, humility, it's so hard to have those instead of pride. I am guilty so often and have to reflect and improve even when it feels good in the moment.
If you are ever excommunicated, know that you wouldn't be the first to be wrongfully exed. And that there is life outside the lds church and it's marvelous! ❤❤❤😮
Oh.. there would be war!! I guarantee you, I would fight that one and it wouldn't be pretty 🙊
I wasn't excommunicated but I've stepped out of the church bc of all the problems and especially the terrible beliefs and attitudes surrounding the polygamy issue. I feel free now to follow Christ directly. I haven't felt any loss of the spirit guiding me. I have more peace and hope in so many ways.
Your pleas with church leaders at the end to allow women a voice resonated SO strongly with me! Thank you, both, for speaking up. We should be able to say when something is offensive, or historically suspect, without risking excommunication.
Cheryl Bruno and Michelle Stone on the same ticket! What a dynamic duo!
You have to know Brian feels threatened since he only has 123 subscribers 🤣🤣.
This movement is really picking up so panic has set in😱😱. Why he feels he has to defend se-× slavery is gross and extremely inappropriate
The thing is that they DO want to personally practice polygamy
Yes, it seems that way.
And what would be wrong with that?
@@MichaelEllisYTit’s an abomination and destroys happiness. Obviously.
@@MichaelEllisYTit breaks women’s hearts and damns men and woman from becoming who they are meant to be.
@@BadAsss_patriotIt seems to break men’s hearts too. It sets them up for competition in such an unhealthy way.
Brian reminds me of a modern day Brigham. Just shut up and do as I say or you should be kicked out.
You think Saint Joseph was any different? 😂😂
Amen Mary!
@@dr33776 No
With all due respect, why is Cheryl not seeing the crystal clear clarity of section 101 (1835 version)? Why is Cheryl being a semi-apologist for Brian at times? Brian knows exactly what he is doing, and it's called being deliberately deceptive and nasty...
Amen!
It's called textbook Narcassim traits.
Is section 101 a revelation from god to Joseph or just a statement on marriage such as the official declarations?
According to the manual "Daughters in My Kingdom" published by the church, it states "Wilford Woodruff, the fourth President of the Church, received a revelation that led to the Church's discontinuance of the practice of plural marriage. He wrote this revelation in a document known as the Manifesto." He said " The God of heaven commanded me to do what I did do; and when the hour came that I was commanded to do that, it was all clear to me. I went before the Lord, and I wrote what the Lord told me to write."
D&C 42 also contains the revelation to Joseph Smith on the law of the church. In this recorded revelation Joseph writes "22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else. 23 And he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her shall deny the faith, and shall not have the Spirit; and if he repents not he shall be cast out. 24 Thou shalt not commit adultery; and he that committeth adultery, and repenteth not, shall be cast out."
I am reminded of the old saying, "hard work beats talent when talent fails to work hard". Michelle Stone is talented and she works hard. And that is why these two ole boys just got taken to the wood shed! LOL Well done, ladies, well done! I look forward to your discussion tomorrow on what's right vs who is right. :)
In my strong opinion I don’t believe or trust Hales whatsoever.
Me neither. His website isn't even entirely objective or honest.
I suspect Brian asked to appear on Steve's show because he needed a platform and wanted to respond after Michelle's anniversary program.
Another Historian in a Suit.
Brian Hales is way too pious! He's the person I would tune out, turn off and not even look at if he was giving a talk in my Sacrament Meeting. Yuck!
Yeah, yeah, yeah, ... but I am also be grateful for the work he did do. The resources his project made available are being used by people on both sides of these discussions. Many look at the documents without giving merit to his interpretation. Same things with the Joseph Smith Papers.
Great podcast. The fallout that would happen if Michelle was excommunicated would be massive.
Interesting way to intimidate the so called patriarchy.
It would free her from the cult.
@@carhartt4510 interesting take, discredit and shame.
Cheryl was wrong about section 101... she humms and haws a lot on this subject.
She has a book about polygamy coming out soon that hasn’t been released yet. If she changes her stance now her book might be obsolete right out of the chute. And I don’t mean this in a snarky way. She stands on the side that Joseph practiced polygamy so with a book coming out I could see the issue of feeling like you need to stick with your position at least for now to give your book credibility. 🤷🏻♀️
Ugh. I totally disagree with her on that and on her theories that Joseph Smith was a Mason.
@@allthingsarepossiblethruchristI'd like to study more on whether or not Joseph was a Mason. Can you recommend any good resources? Everything I've read thus far points to him being one. There is clearly a connection to the Temple, which doesn't seem to be scriptural.
Sounds like they will cover that in more detail the next time they meet up, which is likely why she appeared to humm and haw.
@@Washingtontree the letters Joseph wrote while in liberty jail, but the parts not included in sections 121 and 122 of the D&C
Sorry, Cheryl, but there is very little room to interpret 101 a different way, and it was not interpreted any differently historically. And if you look at all of Joseph Smith’s statements about polygamy, they are clear (and not in any way carefully worded denials). Brian is grasping at straws with this interpretation.
Who wrote 101? Was it a revelation from God?😅
Misinterpreting 101 is like misinterpreting Jacob 1-3. One must be heavily biased defending polygamy willing to do mental gymnastics to read it as allowing room for God commanding polygamy to achieve exaltation.
Yeah, I agree there's very little room to interpret it a different way. It would be easier to make the case that it was a blatant lie to hide the truth than to make the case that it was a carefully worded "truth, .. (wink wink)". I mean either he's a lyer or he's not. and a carefully worded lie with a wink in it is still a lie (at least that's what my mother taught me, and I do not doubt my mother knew it)
@@brentlarsen4414 here’s my personal revelation, he was a liar
D&C 42 supports the law of the church as the law of the Lord in stating "22 Thou shalt love thy wife with all thy heart, and shalt cleave unto her and none else. 23 And he that looketh upon a woman to lust after her shall deny the faith, and shall not have the Spirit; and if he repents not he shall be cast out. 24 Thou shalt not commit adultery; and he that committeth adultery, and repenteth not, shall be cast out."
Why does this remind me of the people who translated the Bible for the masses to be able to read? It's like they think they have to protect the masses from learning things for themselves and interpret it for them so they don't get "confused."
I said this on Steven’s channel. Brian Hales is a MD with a god complex. He has a very arrogant self righteous demeanor (like several cardio thoracic surgeons I’ve seen over my 45 yrs of PACU nursing) that look down on others, such as nurses. He is threatened by you and all the indisputable evidence you present that makes him look ignorant in his “scholarly” endeavors. He is a narcissist to the core and becomes so angry because he is exposed and he has to blame someone. He is NOT a humble man nor will he strive to be. Keep up the good work Michelle. You are amazing!
Funny thing is..... he didn't even do the research, Don did. He's been taking credit for work he didn't even do
@@StompMom5 True that!!!
FACTS
Brian Hales is correct that Joseph Smith originated and practiced polygamy, but his problem is that he still believes that Smith's revelation on celestial marriage is authentic, and that polygamy is God-ordained.
By the way, I'm just a high school graduate, but I'm intelligent and rational enough to realize the facts about Joseph Smith practicing polygamy. There are simply too many accounts from a wide variety of eyewitness participants to deny that Smith was behind it. So one need not be a doctor, or be self-righteous, or condescending in order to accept and relate historical facts. Every legitimate Mormon historian who has ever written on the subject affirms that Joseph Smith originated it.
@@StompMom5 It's not like Brian couldn't have done the research himself. Numerous previous historians have published on the subject, including Fawn Brodie, George D. Smith, Michael Quinn, Gary Bergera, Richard van Wagoner, and Todd Compton. I bought and read Compton's 788-page book "In Sacred Loneliness: The Plural Wives of Joseph Smith" when it first came out in 1998. Compton started out by studying Eliza R. Snow's journals, and that led him to spending five years researching ALL of Joseph Smith's 33+- plural wives. Probably half of everything Don Bradley furnished to Brian Hales can be found in Compton's book.
You Joseph Smith polygamy deniers want a "villain" to "blame" the issue of Joseph Smith's polygamy on, so you attack Hales and Bradley, when the vast majority of it has been in the public domain ever since the events occurred. John C. Bennett first exposed Joseph Smith's polygamy practice in 1842; William Law, Austin Cowles, and Joseph H. Jackson wrote a lot more about it in 1844. Other Nauvoo-era eyewitness participants to the events added journals, letters, newspaper intervies, and legal affidavits over the years which help to flesh out the entire history. The problem you Joseph Smith polygamy deniers have is that you simply haven't studied the historical data for yourself, and you are relying on conspiracy theorists like Michelle Stone for your "truth."
I seem to recall that President Uchtdorf taught in General Conference that "leaders make mistakes" - a couple examples: President Kimball called the priesthood ban a "possible error", and President Nelson taught us that President Hinkley and President Monson made mistakes by promoting the term "Mormon" as the name of the church - providing a significant victory for Satan. So, we can have leaders endorse points of policy or doctrine that are later proven to be errors - and still be prophets. Regardless of who started polygamy (Joseph or Brigham) - could they still be prophets, but have committed an error in this case?
Ask that to peter who denied christ 3 times. He will go to hell?
I think Brian Hales is not capable of hearing and understanding your answer is because he is an ostrich with his head in the sand and because he has already decided what your end game is and has an answer ready for that answer and is disappointed he can't give you that answer. In short, he is not LISTENING to your answer!
Someone on that video (before it was pulled) made the point that Brian isn’t just defending the church but also defending his own decisions since he is sealed to 3 women.
Exactly this. He’s technically a polygamist. He believes, by being sealed to 3 women, that he’ll be sealed to them all and living with them all for eternity, but claims he’s never wants to have to live it. It’s obvious he’s looking forward to it.
@@SummerAdamsdotcomIf you listen carefully in the video when he's talking about how much he doesn't like polygamy he says multiple times the phrase "in this life". He fully expects that he will live it and it will be a good thing in the next life.
@@arkdmjyuck!!!! You’re right!
He's sealed to three women! Oh my! Let's pray they all visit him like Scrooge had but for Easter!
@@MommaCrissaI didn’t know he was until then. I hope all of the women agreed to this
The era of trusting in eminence ended in 2020. We are now in the era of trusting in evidence. To maintain relevance, those who once considered themselves authorities are now forced to answer a skeptical public's demands to "show me". The choice is to up your game or pass the baton.
it would seem that Brian is either deluded or dishonest.
It's so crazy that men who speak against polygamy are excommunicated but those who obsess over it are embraced🤦🤦♀️. Why don't we just call it what it what it is... the church of sex of mankind and leave it at that🤣🤣🤣
Brian has no light and I have no doubt whatsoever that he believes we're in the wrong for not practicing it. His efforts to prove Joseph slept with everyone is perverted, blasphemy and bearing false witness. That dude will have both God and Joseph to answer to
So true. it is either "all for one and one for all" or you are out
"His efforts to prove Joseph slept with everyone is perverted, blasphemy and bearing false witness."
Good heavens, lady, Brian Hales didn't make this stuff up. It has been in the public record for more than a century. Multiple women whom Joseph Smith propositioned in Nauvoo turned him down and told other people about it. Joseph Smith had legal charges filed against him in 1844 "for living in an open state of adultery" with 20-year-old Maria Lawrence. And several other women swore legal affidavits that they had been Smith's plural wives and had had sex with him. Instead of trashing Brian Hales, has it occurred to you to just study the historical data for yourself first?
Wow. Men being men. They hold all the power and authority, especially within the church. Every man 12 years of age and older has some form of priesthood, and gets conditioned and trained to lead, influence, direct, and control-be it people, meetings, or outcomes. That is some difficult programming to undo, but I believe God-fearing, wise, and courageous wives and mothers can help.
Michelle, I’m sorry your heart got hurt and your incredible mind and hard work have been dismissed. But keep going. You are speaking for countless numbers of women past, present, and future. You’re over the target 🎯.
I watched his apology video yesterday and commented that he should put the interview with Brian Hales back up as I did not get to view it.
Trialed faith = Testimony of Christ
If someone does something publicly to offend someone I feel like publicly apologizing is the best option no?
I think both a public AND private apology are appropriate.
Michelle, you’re so awesome! Way to stand up for your beliefs and helping others remove so many falsehoods.
I am so sorry you were treated like that (again) by Brian Hales. What a bully he is. I am angry that he is obviously trying to get you excommunicated. There are so many who admire you and what you are doing. You are a big part of why a 100 pound weight was lifted from my heart after an entire lifetime of thinking polygamy was something I had to just endure possibly in the next life. I am so grateful that it was never true. I'm sure there are many of here who would do anything we could for you and your mission. Thanks again:)
I think it's very important what Michelle has done for the women of the church. Even if the official church sticks to the same narrative about polygamy, women of the church can at least live their life in peace and be assured that no polygamy will exist after this life in the Spirit World or Celestial Kingdom. God will not just allow their husbands to shop for many wives out there.
Michelle, thank you from the bottom of our hearts for all you do and for the spiritual enlightenment you bring. Stay strong and keep unveiling truth. Our prayers of strength and support to you are ongoing 🙏🙏
Way to stand up for yourself Michelle! 👏🏻 Also, kudos to Cheryl for raising her voice to speak truth to power and patriarchy alongside Michelle. Bravo!👏🏻
God knows your heart and truth! And many will be told in the end I know you not...or you know me not. for they truly do not know Him and it will come out in the end which maybe sooner then most think. Love is the highest law. Lust is polygamy.
I don’t know if somebody said this already, but him bringing Brian on to talk about your work is unfair like having someone listen to only an enemy of Joseph Smith to learn about Joseph Smith is unfair.
It appears that the video is back up with all of the original comments.
I just can't get over that silly, low ball comment on you calling it "magic". Wow, that was choice.
Yes. Clearly she doesn't literally mean magic was used. We use that kind of expression all the time in our culture. Maybe Brian is above that kind of "little people" speech.
Yes, he is better than the rest of us. LOL@@Washingtontree
I commented on that video when I heard that part. Absolutely ridiculous.
@@dynamicbree He has to be pretty desperate to stoop that low.
As far as endgame - why wouldn’t we want to know if the polygamy practice was in fact a terrible mistake?
Brian’s attitude and behavior truly is appalling. I watched the original episode when he came on your podcast and was disgusted. The fact that he seemed to think there was nothing wrong with it was shocking. He acted similarly on Steve’s podcast. It’s shameful.
Brian Hales is correct that Joseph Smith originated and practiced polygamy, but his problem is that he still believes that Smith's revelation on celestial marriage is authentic, and that polygamy is God-ordained.
@@randyjordan5521I’m specifically speaking on his behavior - not whether he is correct or incorrect. I don’t really know if JS was a polygamist or not and as someone who isn’t LDS I’m not really impacted on that point.
The idea that polygamy could ever be God ordained and commanded is an awful one. The historic Christian position has always been anti-polygamy. It’s surprising to me that Steve did not bring that up in the interview!
@@saralyg When you are an authority on a subject, it is difficult to maintain an attitude of civility with someone who is uninformed or deluded and is unwilling to accept historical facts. Brian Hales trying to discuss the issue of who started polygamy with Michelle is like arguing with a flat-earther.
The historical evidence that Joseph Smith originated and practiced polygamy is exhaustive and comes from a wide variety of disparate eyewitness participants and other insiders. The idea that Michelle Stone refuses to accept that evidence does not make it magically disappear.
"The idea that polygamy could ever be God ordained and commanded is an awful one."
I agree completely! So, since Joseph Smith is the man who brought polygamy into Mormonism, he is the man you should direct your criticism at, rather than Brian Hales or anyone else.
I'm sorry these men are talking about you like this, Michelle. I personally think you are doing what God has called you to do and I want you to know that there are many people supporting you and your voice on polygamy. The scriptures show that good people often don't have easy lives. Stay strong!
Pynakkker wants to JS Jr. to be a polygamist because it reinforces the idea that Evangelical as a religion is better than LDS, which is why he won't have Stone on.
He has clearly stated that he doesn't have a horse in the game and is willing to interview both Hales and Stone.
Brian Hales never gives any Scriptures to support his position. All he does is quote General authorities in the early church like Brigham Young, John Taylor, Joseph F. Smith, etc…who were all polygamists. We are told in the Scriptures that we’re not to put our faith and trust in men but in God and Jesus Christ. God doesn’t change neither does He vary from that which He has said. Jacob 2 is so plain that polygamy is an abomination, a whoredom, a crime, etc…to put the polygamy revelation 132 on to God is unbelievable! To believe that Joesph Smith received this revelation is saying that it actually came from God, this is abhorrent!! Brian Hales PhD hasn’t convinced me of anything other than he’s completely put his trust in men instead of God.
Actually when I hear him I go run in the opposite direction as the truth must be somewhere else
Which is true? The pro-polygyny Bible, or anti-polygyny Book of Mormon?
I’ve studied both the Bible and the Book of Mormon and both are anti-polygamy…unless you choose to twist Scripture to support your beliefs.
@@cherylclute4981 Interesting. Where does the Bible condemn polygyny? I haven't found it. I've seen some types of polygyny condemned, but not universally.
@@MichaelEllisYT Come on so now the Bible is pro-polygamy. Your source?
Dear Michelle… Lift your head and know the Savior is and has been there with you. From some old Indian records it says women already have the Priesthood given by Our Mother in Heaven by way of their very natures. Men must earn it here. If the sword incident even happened it wasn't from God. Our loving God gives all their free agency. After Joseph brigham destroyed the church. Just feel and know how wonderful it will be to have that society in place as when it was recorded in 4th Nephi on earth. There are lots of good people in the church but we could be so much more by believing and doing what the Savior is teaching us in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon says all churches will be destroyed. Only the Church of the First Born will bring in the millennium. Continue with your great work in love. HE is with you. ❤
Amen!
Exactly, all churches are in the great and abominable now. All are aligning with their mother church. They love to get together and work on man projects, to be seen of men. Yes we await the coming servant. Thanks
Someone's been reading the Nemenhah archives.
@MichaelEllisYT Oh heavens no...women can hold the priesthood easily. We have the same right you do so.....🤣🤣🤣
Different when it comes to man stuff huh? You own women and the priesthood. You must feel so special
A direct descendant of David Whitmer who had visions, etc, said this: "On the Aaronic level men hold the Priesthood because they need to learn how to serve others.’ Women don’t need the Priesthood because they already serve others, they already know how so they don’t need to learn it. On the Melchizedek level the woman share in the Priesthood with their husbands, but they don’t need their husband there to do it. They can anoint with oil, they can bless, they did it back in Joseph Smith’s time, and in Brigham Young’s time. On the Patriarchal level they hold the priesthood independent of their husband and some can have a higher Priesthood than their husband has but it is all independent."
"It wasn’t that the men had the Priesthood and the women had nothing. It’s that the women didn’t need to have it because they didn’t have the natural man’s instincts of “me first.”
All my kids would know that if they came up to me and asked for a bite off of my plate I never stuck in their mouth the one I was saving for my last bite. You know what I mean? There is the best part of any steak. The wife will always give that to any kid. They’ll even give the best steak to their husband, won’t they? Naturally, that’s because they already know how to serve others. Men have to learn that so they’re given the Priesthood in order to put a harness on them and make them do it. Make them go home teaching, make them pass out fast offerings. They’ve got it all twisted around here they say, “gee, look at me I’ve got power.” I’m up here passing the sacrament.” All it is, is that this is the only way we can get you to learn to do what the women already know. They don’t need it, they don’t have to do it."
The sacrifice in childbirth is also mentioned.
You’re awesome Michelle and Cheryl. Love your work!!!! Keep it up and don’t feel burdened by the dogmatic views of those trying to fit into the tribe!!
I love all your extra content lately! I know it can't be all the time, but it sure is an unexpected gift to see a new video out on a day other than Sunday❤
I love it that you're speaking out, Michelle! Wish I could do the same! But with a barely seen disability, nope. I'll never get to. Keep going!
After 2020, we can say the consensus is that those who use the term consensus will be found to be on the wrong side of the argument.
Steve and Brian's presentation was nauseating; full of untruth and propaganda! The truth in the comments however should have been preserved. That is where the only fresh air was!
That is why it was removed in my opinion. The comments were eye opening how many are starting to open their eyes.
I told Steve the same thing. The episode did not reflect well on Brian.
Apparently he apologized to you.
Michelle, you have far greater power and authority from the Holy Spirit of God within you when you share the deep insights and truths about polygamy as you do, than any man who is trying to support such evils from a position of delusion and conformance. When we speak truth the spirit of truth is with us, as is the spirit of Christ. Do not fear the judgments of those who seek to assert authority over you, for YOU are being held in the arms of Jesus, and in the arms of angels you know not of who are rejoicing at your courage, and no man will EVER be able to take your standing with God away. Keep pursuing your passion as you have done, always following the still small voice of God within you, and you shall continue to do great things to help enlighten the minds of many, and strengthen their testimonies of Jesus Christ ❤️🙏
❤️❤️❤️
If it ever comes down to them trying to ex you, just let us know and we will pull together and help them see the light. Money talks and when they start losing loads of tax, oh, I mean tithing money they will get real humble real quick. We love you and what you are doing.
Not to mention, there IS faith-filled life outside of the LDS church.
That is true.@@Washingtontree
LOL. The LDS church has a reported $200 billion. I don't think they'll miss your tithing money.
@@randyjordan5521 If enough people get together and it shows up that people aren't paying their tithing, it will make a difference.
To me it just seemed like hales was just holding the standard Mormon line. I wasn’t surprised by anything he said. Criticizing leaders culturally is very new to Mormonism.
Thank you, Cheryl and Michelle! That was awesome. Stay the course! I think it's great to have two thoughtful, intelligent people representing both sides of this so that we can get a fuller picture and hopefully arrive at the truth surrounding this all-important topic.
14:10 in fairness, Steve has a pretty good grasp on our culture, and culturally…he’s not wrong. We are absolutely made to believe that if you aren’t lockstep with the Q15, you’re in dangerous territory. I don’t agree with this obviously, but…
Just heard the end of this podcast...wow, I had no idea Brian Hales had said that Michelle should be kicked out of the church. I've already felt he didn't have the Spirit with him, wow, now I see he has been led by the devil himself.
The irony out of all this would be if his wife left him. He really bugs me now way more than he did before!
There are two churches only and wherever the "pharisees" are I would run the other direction.
She's passed away from illness. But I always assume her life with him must have been miserable because she didn't like polygamy and he's so merciless about it. I really don't know if she'll look forward to being with him forever....
Whether Michelle is kicked out of the church or not is up to the church leaders. There are multiple people who have openly "anti-Mormon" websites/RUclips channels, but they haven't been kicked out. The church is more lenient with dissenters these days than they were back in the days of Boyd K. Packer and the "September Six."
So whether she's kicked out or not, her problem is that she makes numerous assertions and offers numerous opinions which contradict established, documented facts of Mormon history. Since she does not have the ability to alter history, maybe her best move would be to resign from the church and start up her own cult of troo believers. She supposedly has 17k subscribers. She might be able to make a pretty good living off of their donations.
I thought Steve seemed very humble and sincere in his apology. Whenever I’ve seen Brian he seems annoyed and unable to say that any of the people in his church are wrong. I’m not sure why he feels that Joseph had to be a polygamist when it seems like there is more, or at the very least equal evidence that he was not. Even if Joseph had been it would have still been wrong and only adds credibility to the belief that Joseph was inspired with the Book of Mormon. Why make something up and then go so much against it.
The part I got before it was taken down, was that we are supposed to believe “our leaders”, before examining what historians have researched, I found it quite offensive, maybe Brian needs to pass the baton and be done ✔️
" I’m not sure why he feels that Joseph had to be a polygamist"
Duh, it's because the historical record makes it abundantly clear that he was. Do you think that Brian Hales just made that idea up? Are you not aware that the fact that Joseph Smith originated and practiced polygamy has been known about and published since 1842?
@@randyjordan5521 I’m aware of the claims however there seems to just as much literature and research that comes to the exact opposite conclusion as well. Plus what Joseph, his wife and son all said. Just trying to look at both sides and it doesn’t seem so cut and dry. Hence why I’m not sure why the only conclusion is that he was. Some things could have been hearsay, or people trying to spread rumors. Maybe there was confusion with terminology? Maybe Brigham wanted it to be true, or perhaps he did and regretted it later? There are no children with Joseph’s DNA, so scant evidence that they were consummated. I haven’t heard anything from Brian that refutes the criticisms of his arguments is all and his isn’t the only opinion with good points.
@@brettsmithphotography2463 Sounds to me that your primary problem is that you simply haven't studied the subject well enough to make informed conclusions.
The evidence that Joseph Smith started and practiced polygamy is exhaustive, and comes from a wide variety of eyewitnesses, both friendly to and in opposition to Smith. Every legitimate historian who has ever published on the subject concurs that Smith started it.
I suggest that you ignore what Smith's wife and son said about polygamy decades later, and instead study the sources which were actually published during the events, beginning in 1842.
@@randyjordan5521 Perhaps not, I like to think I'm keeping an open mind and not becoming dogmatic about historical events. It's very hard to verify things when we can no longer talk to those involved. Lot's of lies were spread about Joseph in other matters so why not this? Some of the things I've read or heard opposing his Polygamy gives me pause about it being a slam dunk. I guess legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder with historians. It seems like there were accounts where Joseph said he would prove what they said false and put out many messages affirming the belief in one wife. It was never official church doctrine during his lifetime and only became so when he could no longer give an opinion. If anything Brigham had a lot to gain by reworking the narrative to fit his own evidence of a desire for and practice of polygamy. So perhaps those variety of witnesses were tainted even at the time by something like that? It's seems likely we will never know 100%. But again if whatever he was doing was polygamy where are all his children by the other women, why was Joseph himself so adamant in his statements during his life and only afterwards these things came out? Why would he discount what he said unless you think he's a liar? Also why would we discount his family who would know the truth and loved him? Emma had no love for Brigham it would seem. Could that be because she felt he wasn't being honest about things? Even today when rumors fly it is often those most close who know the truth amidst the tabloids. Either way Joseph Smith was a man that made mistakes and it doesn't change the fact that if he indeed was involved in polygamy it was wrong as is stated in the Book of Mormon and other official church writings. The way I see it either he was a liar and a polygamist or he wasn't and his name was slandered to give authority to other men's wicked desires. Right now I'm open to either I just don't think you can say anyone living knows the 100% truth and there is no room for misinterpretation of past events. If your mind is made up though you're probably done searching, but like you have suggested I'll keep reading and listening to things on the subject and see which arguments match up the best to my mind.
Thanks so much for your time & devotion to the Truth 😊
Now this is Switzerland
Brian Hales uses motivated reasoning in justifying Joseph’s polygamy. Michelle uses motivated reasoning in denying Joseph’s polygamy. Although Brian is clearly not objective when it comes to the justifications of Joseph’s behavior, at least he’s is honest enough to not cherry pick the facts. At least he acknowledges that Joseph practiced polygamy at all. Michelle on the other hand is like watching a flat earther. The comment she made that she simply “follows the facts” was hilarious. Everything she does starts with a conclusion and elevating all evidence that makes her case. Ya know, just like a flat earther.
Brian doesn't use "motivated reasoning." His website and his comments are based on established, documented facts of history. These facts have been published by numerous people beginning in 1842. By contrast, Michelle's entire line of thinking re: Mormon polygamy is to be in denial of established, documented facts of history. And as you say, she uses the exact same thought processes as flat-earth believers and other conspiracy theorists do. In fact, the ex-Mormon RUclipsr who goes by "RFM" produced a video in which he uses that analogy. I suggest you watch it. It's called "The boy who kicked conspiracy theories."
I have told Michelle multiple times that her thought processes are the same as these people who believe the conspiracy theory that Paul McCartney was killed in a car wreck in 1966, and has been impersonated by an impostor all these years. The idea of course is ridiculous, but those people still repeat it to this day. Michelle wants to believe that Joseph Smith had nothing to do with polygamy because she wants to maintain an image that Smith was not a liar or an adulterer. IOW, she wants to hold a Disney fairy tale prince version of Smith, because she doesn't like the man he really was. So her method of maintaining her chosen image of Smith is to call dozens of his closest friends, relatives, and followers a bunch of liars.
@@randyjordan5521so you dont know how to think critically about official narratives and condemn those who do, calling them silly names? Weird.
Michelle, thank you for what you said starting at 1:44:00
There is so much emotion surrounding this topic, and you have always been very upfront and vulnerable in sharing yourself with your audience, Michelle. Thank you for that. I pray that Brian and Steve will be able to hear what they haven’t understood before as they watch this.
Polygamy causes a stupor of thought, it’s not from God.
Pray for discernment!
Polygamy definitely caused a stupor of thought for Joseph Smith, because his practice of it got him killed. Hard to think when you're dead.
I would say Pynakker isn’t really a true BoM believer if he goes to antithetical sources for plain and precious truths. But once one has disproven polygamy as a thing, the confusion of the prophets’ authority begins
Rock on, ladies!
I've liked Steve's channel for the most part... but i have been uncomfortable with a few aspects. I know he's not lds, but the term priestcraft comes to mind, which is in part men building themselves up to become popular in the eyes of the world. His earlier work is more humble and sincere imo. Perhaps finding his specialty niche has gone to his head? I guess we'll see where things go from now.
I've watched him a bit here and there, but was pretty unimpressed with his video last week where he kept reminding us over and over that he had broke the story about the Kirtland temple being sold. I felt like I was back in grammar school with "that" kid.
Where in the whole history of the church is even one leader NOT practicing priestcraft?
1:11:05 exactly!!!!!!!!! This is exactly what the issue is. You’re spot on!
Too bad Brian did not live in King Noah's day. He could have stepped in seamlessly as a priest in the court, to replace Alma who ran for his life.
He took down that episode and gave a really sincere, genuine apology, I was actually really impressed at the humility. I don’t know that he should have taken it down because because the more Brian talks the weaker the polygamist arguments become. Good ideas and truth will work it’s self out
I could not agree with this more 👍👍👍 Let everyone who believes in polygamy bring their best arguments, air them out thoroughly, and let the “polygamy deniers” bring our best. Then people can decide for themselves.
I just watched Steve's most recent apology and he deserves to be acknowledged for it. I didn't even know who he was until this episode. But I found his apology in the comments here and he admits that he was wrong and didn't treat Michelle fairly.
Brian Hales is cringe. Good luck to him and his end game, which seems wholly selfish
Brian Hales has a way of insinuating that Polygamy deniers need to use mental gymnastics to make their claims. IMO the opposite is true! Just listening to Brian Hales talk oozes of mental gymnastics when he tries to take a thread of substance and spin it as a truth.
It’s embarrassing when members feel the need to listen to him try and justify his points.
Keep up the good work Michelle, keep seeking answers no matter where it takes you! Don’t be bullied and you have ALOT of supporters who have your back💯
Joseph Smith originated polygamy in Mormonism, and he had at least 33 plural wives. Brian Hales did not invent that idea. It has been established, documented fact beginning in 1842. Numerous Mormon historians have written thousands of pages on the subject.
Also, when I go to view Steve’s channel I can’t see or find his apology video. I had to search through my history from yesterday. Is anyone else having this issue?
You have to click on the LIVE videos. It won't show up in the video tab.
@@BestFamilyReviews thanks!
Ugh, I’m just commenting at 1:18:48 right after Stephen said your place is in the church so you need to accept what your prophets say is just ouch to me. It’s like saying that if you want to be in this church then you need to sit down and shut up. Unfortunately, I think a lot of members agree with him, and probably why so many leave! I’m glad there are people like you willing to speak up from within. Most won’t.
Even IF Joseph Smith taught eternal marriage was an eternal principal, it does not mean his followers practiced it the way he meant them to, if at all in this life.
Thank you Michelle
It’s like he is definitely trying too hard to want to bring back polygamy! Doesn’t he? He’ll refute the scriptures and say that’s not what it really means, and then turns it around and says it’s giving us some leeway for multiple wives. Brian Hales is screaming out to bring back polygamy & excuse the bad behavior of Brigham Young and others who had multiple plural wives while ignoring the Scriptures in the book of Mormon and in the Bible concerning the matter.
Joseph Smith originated polygamy in Mormonism, and he had at least 33 plural wives. Brigham Young advocated and practiced polygamy exactly as Joseph had taught it to him and others.
Well...i just finished listening to the entire video... I'm so sorry this happened and also feel disgusted with Steve... he's lost at least one sub. I wouldn't be surprised if many feel the same. I appreciate your guest and her modeling how to disagree appropriately without belittling and being dismissive. (And i hope she changes her mind about Joseph when presented with new thoughts, ideas, and material!)
Don’t unsubscribe from his channel over this. He’s a good guy and feels badly about what happened. Allow him space to make mistakes and learn from them. 🙏🏻
@@allisonhansen364 Exactly! Steve is a humble and very sincere person who just got caught up in the moment.
Hi Michelle!
Glad you did this !
Cheryl hit it right on the head. Brian has a good heart and good intentions but doesn't have the skills to portray his words in a way that would portray that. He is definitely not a people person.
Whats going on is complete WITCH HUNT vibes! So very wrong!!!
I believe Steve genuinely wants to learn more about polygamy and would love it to find out Joseph really didn't practice it. Don't burn this bridge!!!
I've texted him twice since the apology, no response.
Michelle, I want to say that you're doing amazing work. I have always been repulsed by the concept of polygamy, but chose to put it on my "shelf" as one of those things I would understand better whenever God chose to reveal more. I recently started watching your videos, and now I'm hooked. Ironically, I was motivated to search out your work because of a post Avraham Gileadi made condemning "polygamy deniers," saying that they're going to have to answer to God at the judgment bar for deliberately confusing everyone on this subject. I thought that was an awful thing to say. I learned from Avraham Gileadi to read the scriptures very carefully and believe what the text actually says, not rely on other peoples' interpretations. So I did that -- I spent a fair amount of time carefully studying Isaiah chapters 3 and 4 and Jacob chapter 2, as well as other related scriptures, and the clear message I got from it is that God does NOT condone polygamy. Anyways, because of your meticulous work in showing the original historical documents, I am now confident and thrilled to say that I truly believe that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist and that Emma Smith was telling the truth!! It feels so good to say that. It really confirms what my "gut" was telling me all along. Truth will win out eventually. It's obvious to me in this dispute who is genuine and who isn't -- and YOU are the genuine, humble truth seeker and the transparent one. I agree that "faith" is not really faith unless based on truth!! I'm so sorry for the despicable acts of cruelty some are willing to go to to shut you down. I pray that God will continue to hold you up and give you the strength to carry on with what you're doing, because I firmly believe that you're bringing the truth to light.
Thank you ❤️❤️❤️
I value free speech and that is why I do not blame the host for the guests. Even if they’re hosting an idiot- the idiot can speak for themselves ! And the viewers can judge for themselves. And sometimes controversial conversations can lead to great discussion that is productive.
But to me - this was way too harsh on Steve who already appeared to feel genuinely bad and intimidated from people blaming him for Brian’s words.
Telling other people who they can speak to or how they can think etc?
Brian shouldn’t do that to you and you shouldn’t do it either - but that’s just my opinion. He and you can if you want to.
I’m a big girl so I can cope if people all think I’m wrong about that and I don’t think anyone owes me anything.
I do not want special treatment as a female. And I’m not going to blame all men for the stuff some men do. Same as I don’t speak for all women or support all women or put all women into the same bucket.
I don’t think Brian and Steve are the same person.
And who cares is some man says you should shut up? Steve isn’t doing that. And obviously if men tell us to shut up- we don’t do that! Unless we want or choose to.
But it appears Steve has shut up cos he feels bad and has some compassion and doesn’t want conflict - thought grown ups could have different opinions and discussions.
You two are obviously women with loud voices and plenty to say-
Some of what you say is offensive to many but they shouldn’t expect you to stop speaking or invite them to your channel.
And speak for yourselves - not all women agree with what you’re saying - not all women are focused on men’s views of them.
very well said. Michelle should go on Steve's show and respond like the warrior she is!!!
Steve isn’t a member, and he isn’t a women and thus doesn’t have experience as a Mormon women.
My sealing was cancelled with my divorce... but I'm not worried about my kids because I think biology survives death. Remember the verse in D&C 132 about "all contracts, oaths, vows, etc."? It's supposed to be a comprehensive list, but you'll notice that biology is missing from the list. Maybe that's why Joseph never sealed any parents to their biological children i.e., because it was unnecessary. Just a thought,
I admire you ladies so much for standing up for yourselves and for all women in the church. ❤
😂😂😂listening to Brian Hales make truth claims is just GROSS! It’s NOT faith promoting its faith DEMOTING!!
Run Forrest run !!! comes to mind when you see him
"Faith demoting?" Brian Hales' views on polygamy are exactly in line with those of Utah LDS church leaders. Have you ever read the church's essays on Nauvoo-era plural marriage?
@@randyjordan5521 Yes faith demoting and I do care who says what. What of priesthood bans, Adam god, blood oaths, these were are practiced and then given up
@@FleeingBabylon-Now And those items were all produced by Joseph Smith.