I have a friend in my homeschool community who had an unassisted birth recently. I’d never heard of it until I decided to have water births with a midwife with my last two babies. I had the most perfect and beautiful birth with my last child. Now she’s 7 :) Thank you so much for putting together this podcast and all of your research!!! Thank you for your faith while at the same time challenging the traditions of our fathers. This is exactly the place I want to live in as well. I had never heard of the story of the angel with the flaming sword forcing Joseph to practice polygamy. And now I can toss it into the Mormon folklore category. It’s a fairy tale!
I never heard of unassisted births either, until this last year, but there is a whole community of women who do it. Truth on how to correctly birth is out there. Learn Hypno-active Birthing.
@@icecreamladydriver1606 sorry this response is so late in coming. I found many homeschooling families by searching for homeschool groups listed on Facebook for my local area. I’ve made many dear friends through the homeschool community. If you live in Utah county, I can share some links with you. Homeschool Hub of Southern Utah County is one to know about.
You noted that Brian Hales and others have been careful to assure people that those who do not wish to practice polygamy won’t have to. According to D&C 132 that is not the case. D&C 132:4-5 clearly states that those who do not abide by the new and everlasting covenant, which according to D&C 132 is plural marriage, will be damned “for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.” (132:4). And in verse five it further reinforces the concept “For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.” In verse 21 we then find this: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory” referring to verses 19-20 where it is noted that we can be gods - but only if we abide “my law”. Then in 28 we read “I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the law of my Holy priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.” Finally in 32 we read “Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.” This verse is then followed by a detailed explanation of what that law is and how it is to be practiced - polygamy. While some would argue that this “law” spoken of is broken into sections, I do not believe that to be a correct reading. This whole section is all about justifying polygamy and all manner of sin (26) - it is a dream section for those who wish to commit whoredoms and all manner of iniquity under the guise of religion. Here is my point, according to 4-5,32 those who do not keep this law will not be saved, but are damned and will not enter into God’s glory. So, if you are a good member of the church and expect to be exalted you must keep the law or be damned and not enter God’s presence. The claim in this section is that this law was before the foundation of the world (5,11,28). This major contradiction seeks to pre-empt all prior teachings of monogamy in just one section of modern day scripture and make polygamy the rule and not monogamy. So no, an honest reading indicates that this will not be an option if we wish to enter God’s presence according to D&C 132 as polygamy is required by the law from before the foundation of the world.
Thank you for explaining so clearly the justified pain Emma would have experienced, IF what the church essays tell us is true that Joseph collected other wives, and some of them behind her back. I love that you point out that she didn’t sign up to marry an adulterer. Also, sorry you had to deal with a bishop who should have kept his counsel to himself… D&C 1:19 “The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh-"
I'm shocked that a bishop would insert himself into a child birth matter. Then again, my shelf exploded off the wall when the church inserted themselves into the Covid vaccination conversation in the way that they did. I am grateful there are many inspired people who just press forward in faith regardless of what mistakes authority figures make along the way.
Wow! I am embarrassed that I never stopped to consider this story of Joseph and the flaming sword in the light of all God has revealed about how heaven works. It so clearly comes from the playbook of the adversary! Whatever level of truth there is to this story, God’s angels do not behave according to those principles. Your words of truth here are a healing balm. Thank you! Also, I very much appreciate your vulnerability and willingness to share this pregnancy and birth experience. There are still some things for us as a Church to learn in this Restoration. Priesthood is a real power and authority from God, but it should be clear that Priesthood does not preside over ALL things-it certainly is not the presiding authority over birth, for men have no capacity to give birth. We’ll get there! :)
Priesthood is God's power, so it can be involved or preside over everything that we allow it to in our life. But priesthood holders do not preside over everyone's individual lives.
@@TShirtAndReeboks We have interpreted Priesthood as being _the_ power of God, but scriptures continuously testify that priesthood is “after” the order of the Son of God. I believe the true order of the Son of God includes the power and authority of the priestesses, who preside over such ordinances as birth and conferring the light of Christ.
I can’t imagine why a bishop would share an opinion on whether or not a member of his ward should have a home birth. Having been a Bishop, I find this appalling. That’s some serious D&C 121 abusing of the priesthood authority. I’m constantly amazed by the stories I hear out of Utah.
Now I can see how extraordinarily inappropriate it was. At the time I was not independent minded enough to not know that it wasn't my problem. He was a good and humble man, but this was NOT his stewardship. I am now thankful for the experience because it taught me valuable lessons.
Exactly, agency is essential. We're suppose to believe that God would allow the most horrific acts of evil against humanity ,but when it comes to not willing to practice polygamy, you'll be destroyed. 🤦
In addition to all of your great points, a friend pointed out to me that the current LDS narrative suggests that an angel had to come with a drawn sword to coerce Joseph into practicing what he was allegedly already practising. How does that make any sense?
I love your take on this flaming sword business and I had also come to the same conclusions. Bless you for articulating it so well. I am amazed that you give such grace to your bishop, though. I am sure that was a very trying time for you and your husband, but glad you can spot unrighteous dominion when you see it. Makes it easier to see going forward. This whole covid jab mess has been the same way with titled individuals.
My mind is blown about your Bishop involving himself in your birth process, and then threatening your recommend or DCF!!! 🤯 HE is the psycho!!! (And I'm a retired L&D nurse.)
My daughter had the same prompting to have an unassisted birth for her last two. Fortunately, her husband was on board. She knew that she should not tell anyone, however. The info was even withheld from most of her siblings. I’m glad you decided to relate the story. Thank you. I appreciated that you prayed to God because of two conflicting things that you were supposed to do, and put it in his hands. He is good.
I am so excited to hear your experience with birth and receiving direction on that. I had a similar experience! Before becoming pregnant with my fouth I was in the temple and was told very clearly through the spirit that for my next birth, only my husband and I needed to be there. I had faith in that and clung to it during the whole pregnancy and did my own prenatal care and did not hire a midwife. It was exactly what we needed! I had the most beautiful and sacred experience and learned things beyond words. I grew more than I could have imagined and received precious things from my Heavenly Parents through Christ. Birth is a womans stewardship, it is an opportunity to access and exercise the most divine feminine power. We are literally practicing Heavenly Mother's work during that sacred time. I have written about this (applied all different births, not just unassisted) in a study manual called Joyful Spiritual Birth. Thank you for sharing. You are not alone!
If you consider all the many evil things Brigham said about Emma after Joseph’s death, then the parts where 132 condemn and warn her of destruction are dripping with brighams contempt for her. I bet he loved putting that in there. When he died he not only had to face God but also Joseph. His number 2, his second in command, tried to marry his own wife, attacked and belittled her and her reputation. Now imagine the story of Joseph in jail and the guards talking about raping women and how Joseph scared them to death even though he was a prisoner to the point they shut up. Now think of that man, whose wife was smeared and attacked by another man, essentially robbed, and left to fend for herself, facing brigham in death.
Absolutely awesome! There are ao many stories we've grown up hearing and have just accepted...but listening to you dissect these points is so eye-opening to me. Thank you so much for the time and effort you have expended for all of our benefit!
I LOVE your baby experience. I've gone from wanting nothing to do with natural birth, never wanted to talk to anyone who does it to now, it breaks my heart seeing love ones go the hosptial route to giving birth. It pains my soul. We women are not taught how to properly give birth and the truth is we are fully capable of doing it on our own and there are skills to learn how to do it. The 2 things that really educated me on it was taking Hypno-active birthing class and reading Ina May's Guide To Childbirth. The first natural birth experience I had, I hold the most tenderly to my heart and it showed me the deepth of my husband's love for me (and no it is not the same as a hospital birth), it truly felt like we were in this together, so when I was pregnant with my next child I wanted to make sure he was on board for a natural birth because it was no longer just my choice and my way, it was OUR choice and OUR baby we were having together. Also as I LEARNED how to give birth naturally, 2 scriptures came to mind: "simple and precious truth" that luckily have not been fully forgotten. And I could now "choose for myself and not just be acted upon."
I landed here after reading about “Angel Fred” in Ronald Karren’s book! Listening to you reminds me how that even though I left the LDS church a year (or two?) ago, I still have an affinity for the Saints as individuals. ❤
This video was one of my favorites-thank you so much and the minute you said you would share a personal experience about something the lord guided you to do something that seemed crazy I knew immediately what it was because I have had similar experiences (homebirth that was unassisted). Sharing that story was perfection to me because it really does illustrate how God works with couples and how God delivers personal revelation. Thank you for you sincere and humble and strong statements in this video. I heard the flaming sword story as a little girl and accepted it because I didn’t know any better. Your analysis of it was so clear and precise! Thank you again for taking the time to make these videos and share your perspective and research and personal revelation. What a treasure these are!
Wow. That was a beautiful video. I appreciate your spirit and the manner in which you expressed yourself, thoughts, and information you wanted to share. I absolutely agree with you on everything. And I also love home births. Some of the most sacred moments in my life.
thanks so much for being willing to share your unassisted birth story with this topic. it was the perfect illustration of the principles taught and shared. i will be eternally grateful for the profound experiences of our 5 home births. we knew from the moment we chose to study & learn together to prepare for the arrival of our first that it was a gift from god. it set precedent right at the beginning of our marriage the importance of working, learning & making decisions together. we celebrated our 20th year yesterday, and i am so deeply grateful for our heavenly parents and joseph & emma - for their example to cleave to one another & be one ❤️❤️
Yay for homebirth! I just had my first homebirth several months ago (at God's command) and it is truly a beautiful thing. I'm wondering if you will be doing an episode on Christ's polygamy? I’ve heard some polygamy apologists use the claim that Christ was a polygamist and when I ask them for scriptural evidence, all I get is crickets or they vaguely mention the story of Mary and Martha. It's amazing how much content there is with this subject. I'm sure there is so much you could cover!
Congrats! I do love homebirth! I am planning an episode on the Old Testament and one on the New Testament (which will include the claims that Jesus was a polygamist.) The claims are really bad -- extremely thin and weak -- yet people cling to them.
Thanks for this episode! The story of the Angel with the flaming sword has always bothered me. You touched on Brian Hales assurances that no one will have to practice polygamy if they don’t really want to but this story and many others show an awful lot of coercion and unrighteous dominion going on in the early church. 😒 And what about these men who had multiple deceased women sealed to them? Wilford Woodruff was said to have sealed over 250 dead women to himself and a more recent example is Ezra Taft Benson sealing his deceased (first!) cousin to himself. Where do these women get a choice? I often hear apologetics explain that the women can reject the sealing but what alternative does she have? And how come women couldn’t/ can’t just choose random dead men to seal to themselves? And what about the situations where the wife dies first and the man chooses to get sealed to a second wife, the first wife didn’t give her consent, where is her choice? It’s so maddening to me to hear people try to explain it all away with God will work it all out or something like that. 🤯
So I heard something in a family night on Pioneer Day… my aunt said that the flaming sword came to Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lighner… but I thought it came to Joseph smith and then he told Lightner that she had to do it cuz of the angel… anyone know the answer? Did it happen to them both?
Jacob 2 & Jacob 3 says it all “ raise up seed” has several connotations, how did they get polygamy from Jacob 2, especially after the consequences of sexual transgressions are mentioned in these chapters.
Loved the episode. I always thought that story was weird and suspect. Man, your bishop was a piece of work. I hope he learned something. I can't imagine dealing with that. I'm a Bishop's wife and can't imagine my husband interjecting into a person's life like that.
Thank you! I know it sounds strange, but he actually was a very kind and humble man. He was just truly terrified. The day he found out and first called us in, he told me that he had spoken to an OB on the high counsel who told him that any woman who failed to use the wonderful advances God had given us (medicalized birth) was either badly deceived or incredibly foolish. I knew he was acting out of deep care (which is probably part of what made this so hard -- I definitely didn't want to make the bishop's job harder.) I ended up being thankful for the experience because it has given me such a deeper understanding and appreciation of order and stewardship. It is so strange that we don't even recognize a woman's stewardship in revelations of how she will give birth. (We believe we needed men - doctors - to come and fix birth for women because, I guess, God set it up so badly.) Anyway, I know my bishop was embarrassed afterward, which makes me feel bad, but I am hopeful that he learned some valuable lessons just as my husband and I did.
@@MichelleBStone I guess counseling could be fine(even though I don't think it's a bishops place in those matters), but threaten to take your temple recommend away is so over the top. I've heard of others getting theirs taken away for not listening"sustaining" their priesthood leaders. Persuasion doesn't work if you are threatening something. You seem like such a sweet woman to handle that. Sweeter than me. Lol
@@jackiechoate6163 it was definitely a struggle and it hurt the relationship. His insinuation about my temple recommend was subtle, but definitely there. He was way way out of line, but I know he was acting out of genuine fear and concern, not a desire to control. Still not okay, but definitely easier to forgive. 😉
@@MichelleBStone Your story reminded me a little of something. It wasn't a warning situation like yours, but people, many of them at church, asked or assumed I was pregnant when I just had a belly that wasn't flat because of diastasis recti and maybe bloating as well. This was some time after our 3rd child was born and after our 4th. The 4th (and last) is turning six soon, and just a few weeks ago the other Primary music lady that I serve with asked "Did you swallow a watermelon seed?" I just said no. Couldn't believe she would ask that, but she's old enough to be my mom. I'm glad it doesn't offend me anymore. And I am happier than ever with the way my body looks. . . . I know they are kind and would just like to have seen another one of our cute babies, especially if we got a boy, because we have all girls.
I’m just baffled that a bishop or president of the church think it’s their stewardship to tell you what health decisions are best for you or your family. And then he calls in your husband alone? Omgosh, Michelle!🙈 You are a brave, strong woman and much more Christlike than I am because I get really angry when this happens. I really struggle with unrighteous dominion!
Thank you for sharing such a personal story! If you ever share your birth stories, count me in! I love a good birth story! UA has always been a dream of mine, but we are done having kids, so it would have to be one of those "I didn't know I was pregnant" stories. lol I have had a similar experience with my husband regarding another controversial subject (don't want to get your channel flagged). Thankfully the Bishop didn't get involved, but it did take some work to get my husband and I on the same page!
Something that would be interesting to compare would be the accounts about Joseph and the sword-wielding angel, and the story of Nephi slaying Laban. Both were commanded to do something seemingly immoral, but both had vastly different consequences and lasting repercussions.
"This is how psychos die." Hilarious! You're awesome! Thank you for your vulnerability and example. Love you so much. And your husband. I think it's so cool that this whole thing began because he received revelation. What an amazing fruit of that revelation he received.
Holy COW about the reaction of the bishop. I've learned how people freak out when people are breaking out of the narrative/programming, but wow he was in deep.
Thanks for your excellent investigative work... into these very murky waters.🙃 (of the church's history). BTW, thanks for sharing that difficult story about your 9th.
Thank you for your insight. You make good arguments. I too came to the conclusion that many of the stories told and the history of the church have exaggerations and even falsehoods to justice a narrative that then men who came after him wanted to live out. And wow… that is amazing you gave birth at home that many times!!! I’m a Christmas baby as well. 😃
I love this story of you deciding to have a free birth 🤍🤟🏼 So sorry you faced so much opposition for following your mama intuition. Your temple recommend?? My goodness. 🤦♀️ ugh. I love this series! thank you for all you’re doing 🤍
I was unaware of this story, but it sounds like a demon angel to me. If there is any truth to it, I would have to assume that was the adversary and Joseph was doing his best to resist it.
Can't believe I'm just now seeing this video. Oh my goodness... that birthing story had me on the edge of my seat. How freaking amazing!!! I can totally see how an experience like that would strengthen and unite a marriage. Very much enjoyed hearing your experience. Weird that the bishop got involved 🤔. Absolutely LOVE this video!! That flaming sword BS is straight up folklore. Not one word of it makes an ounce of sense, it never has. I know this is old but thanks for doing such a great video😇🙏
So I’m just getting into this series after seeing you on Midnight Mormons. Do you have an episode on the implications if you’re correct? That’s what I’m really trying to wrap my mind around.
Thanks for asking. I don't have one specific episode, but that is discussed in numerous different episodes. The way I see it is the church has not been at all harmed by getting rid of blood atonement, racial doctrines, Adam God theory, and other doctrines / ideas taught mainly by Brigham young. We seem to be able to be at peace with letting these doctrines go, even though he taught them as the president of the church, so why would polygamy be different?
This episode may be helpful. Let me know if I'm not understanding correctly, but I think what you may be asking is how to reconcile our idea that "the prophet can never lead the church astray" with the understanding that some of them may have taught ideas that are not correct. It's interesting because anyone who did not see the masks and vaccines as being from God has had to grapple with the same conundrum. If that is your question this might be the best episode to start with. Thanks for asking. ruclips.net/video/oilK4MpN7_Q/видео.html
This angel proclamation seems to be more of a secret combination of those pushing the polygamy agenda decades after Joseph died. My personal belief is polygamy is a sin in the same category as adultery & fornication.
Michelle, thank you for sharing the story of your home birth experience. I'm glad that things eventually worked out all right in the end. I strive to stay close to the Lord with all my struggles. I hope and pray like you do that the story of Joseph Smith and Emma being coerced into polygamy by the Lord and a heavenly angel. To me too that doesn't seem like something a loving Heavenly Father that is so dedicated to free agency would do.
I've been a member my whole life with "pioneer stock" on both sides of my ancestry and I've never heard the story of the angel with thr flaming sword forcing Joseph to do polygamy. Love your conclusions and its astounding more haven't questioned it on its face.
I feel like the Lord set all things in place, and we are in a fallen world, however the Lord provides direction and revelation to lessen or avoid some hard inevitable consequences. For the sword, if this is true I would think that the angel of the Lord presented imagery to Joseph for Joseph to his mind understand the consequences of a prophet not following the Lords commandments. Joseph because of his position would have severed his connection with the Lord and would have divided himself from exhalation. One thing to consider is Joseph learned early on that when the Lord commands a thing that he must do it, due to the lost manuscript. So it surprises me that he would hesitate but also gives precedence to Joseph fear of man/wife. I feel like the message given was that the sealing power must be expanded and if Joseph did not follow counsel of Gods angels then Joseph would lose his promise and essentially excommunicate himself and would be left without the priesthood. Imagine becoming a fallen prophet and where to go from there? That torment psychologically, and would he attempt to become a false prophet? Would he lose Gods protection and fall victim to murder without being a martyr? Things to consider, this is very interesting to me. I try to think of what the flaming sword actually is, what it means. Thank you for your video!
I used to harshly judge people who did homebirth and especially unassisted birth and ended up through research and revelation having a homebirth and then also an unassisted birth. It is totally not appropriate for a Bishop to interject his Priesthood authority on the matter and those who judge are in the wrong.
How about when men say, "but there are more righteous women than men. " honestly, that is such a strange statement. So women are MORE righteous and get PUNISHED by having to share their husband? That makes ZERO sense.
Such a fantastic insight! I am not at all a fan of any of the silly explanations we come up with to justify polygamy. That definitely qualifies as one of them.
And how much did Joseph himself teach of obedience, with one scripture in particular in DC 130 that blessing come by obedience and that more light and knowledge comes by obedience. Further on agency, the items required for agency are found in 2 Ne. 2, which are: must be a choice between good and evil or opposition, there must be a knowledge of the consequences both good and evil, there must be an enticement to do one or the other and finally, there must be freedom to choose between the one or the other. Angel and sword violate the "enticement" part, which means to attract, and leaves no choice, except under duress, compulsion by threat or force. Then, unless Joseph was wrong in DC 124:36-45 that only by principles of righteousness can the priesthood operate, which he lists, such as persuasion, gentleness, kindness, etc., and attempting to exercise control or dominion or compulsion, then is the Spirit withdrawn and "Amen to the priesthood or authority." The angel and sword story calls into question both the BofM, DC 124 (and others), Joseph himself and so much more! Strangely, claiming it took and angel threatening death to get Joseph to obey seems contrary to Brian Hales' timeline: visited thrice between 1834-1842. First plural "wife" being Fanny Alger in 1835 plus 5 more sealings before the final threatening 1842 visit? Why then the angel and sword threat, if he was being obedient? Great episode. I am learning so much in detail of what I have suspected and have learned myself but you are adding so much more!
I agree with you that this is 100% against agency however, I can honestly see Joseph's Smith telling people this, look at DC 132:54 where he is saying God is telling Emma if she does not accept him having multiple wives she will de destroyed. Even the gospel topic essays say that even though he told people that this was the third warning there was evidence that he already engaged in polygamy before the third warning from the angel. As one that has study psychology their whole life DC 132 never really felt good.
I agree that most of 132 is absolutely horrible. But, the more I've studied it, the more evidence has piled up to show that Joseph Smith had nothing to do with 132. Everything that Joseph ever said or did completely opposed it, and it didn't appear until 8 years after his death when Brigham Young first presented it in Utah.
@@MichelleBStone So then the question is who wrote 132 if J.S did not and why did Brigham Young present it. It almost feels like Brigham Young is the one at fault or it feels like you may be hinting that Brigham Young altered it or made it up to push forward his views on polygamy. I think it would be just as bad because the LDS church as we know it followed Brigham Young as it really became his church after Joseph Smith died. I know a lot of us get caught up with just what Joseph Smith did however, Brigham Young in a lot of ways is a very important figure to the church especially since he was chosen to lead this branch of Joseph Smiths beliefs.
It always boggles my mind when a priesthood leader inserts himself into a personal matter as if he has any authority in a personal decision. That is unrighteous dominion, pure and simple. Their stewardship does not extend to personal health decisions or any other personal decision. And it’s important to tell them to back off when they try to control your personal decisions.
I have a friend, and I'll be meeting her in person this week, who has freebirthed and sells a $10 eBook on how to free birth. :-) I have a question: how did your bishop know that you were planning on doing that?
It was bizarre! He called me into his office to discuss something else -- apparently a member of the ward had complained about something I said 🙄. In his small talk, he asked if we were doing another home birth (or if we had seen the light) and if we at least had a really good midwife. I was so shocked at his question that I looked at my husband wondering if he had said something (we still weren't in the same page.) He said aloud, "I didn't tell him anything," so that started a whole bunch more questions. He did manage to tell me the complaint a ward never had made, which was annoying but not a big deal, but he said he now believed the reason he had called me in was about this. That's how it all started.
What about the woman who was turned into a pillar of salt for looking backward, against God’s command? What about the cities of Sodom and Gamora (spelling) destroyed in God’s wrath for failing to obey? The smiting of the innocent firstborn of the Egyptians when pharaoh’s heart was too hard to bend to God’s will? One might argue that Ammon, on behalf of the Lord, stood in for an angel with a drawn sword and smote the arms off of how many who where only exercising their agency. I do not believe in, practice or have any positive thoughts toward polygamy. Merely a fellow believer in Christ who sees a couple of errors in your argument here. Pointing one out in love ❤
Thank you for your comment. I tried to make the distinction between consequences of actions as compared to threats to compel action. Consequences are not an abridgment of agency, but threats and compulsion (as the angel in this story would have been) are. As for Lot's wife, I posted this article in Episode 17. I hope you will find it of value. www.feministmormonhousewives.org/2014/05/claiming-our-heroines-the-untold-story-of-lots-wife/
@@MichelleBStone I dunno. I just reread Gen 1: 15-17 and it sounds pretty threatening to me. Do as I say or you’ll be consumed. Don’t get me wrong. I understand what you’re saying. But I think trying to distinguish between threats of punishment for not obeying and meeting out consequences of not obeying is the same as debating the difference between water and H2O
5 babies at home!! Awesome. The hospital must hate you! Your Bishop sounds like he let his work as the Hospital Administrator interfere with his ministry ;-)
Thank you! Actually, I've had 7 babies at home, 5 unassisted. (I got the numbers wrong because I was flusteted. That only happens when you have more babies than brain cells LOL.)
Respectfully, as much as I understand and agree with your argument on the importance of agency, I think comparing it to the story of the angel is a weak argument. Jesus and God throughout the scriptures threaten people with destruction who do not repent/follow their commandments. For example, In 3 Nephi Jesus claims that he destroyed the wicked due to their iniquities and unfaithfulness. Even the Book of Mormon has an example with this principle (also concerning an angel) with Alma the younger. The angel threatened him with destruction if he didn’t change his ways and follow the lord. Just my two cents.
If you read the story I think you will find that the angel did not threaten Alma. Just like with Saul, he convinced him with reason and awe. Mosiah 27:11 And as I said unto you, as they were going about rebelling against God, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto them; and he descended as it were in a cloud; and he spake as it were with a voice of thunder, which caused the earth to shake upon which they stood; 12 And so great was their astonishment, that they fell to the earth, and understood not the words which he spake unto them. 13 Nevertheless he cried again, saying: Alma, arise and stand forth, for why persecutest thou the church of God? For the Lord hath said: This is my church, and I will establish it; and nothing shall overthrow it, save it is the transgression of my people. 14 And again, the angel said: Behold, the Lord hath heard the prayers of his people, and also the prayers of his servant, Alma, who is thy father; for he has prayed with much faith concerning thee that thou mightest be brought to the knowledge of the truth; therefore, for this purpose have I come to convince thee of the power and authority of God, that the prayers of his servants might be answered according to their faith. 15 And now behold, can ye dispute the power of God? For behold, doth not my voice shake the earth? And can ye not also behold me before you? And I am sent from God. 16 Now I say unto thee: Go, and remember the captivity of thy fathers in the land of Helam, and in the land of Nephi; and remember how great things he has done for them; for they were in bondage, and he has delivered them. And now I say unto thee, Alma, go thy way, and seek to destroy the church no more, that their prayers may be answered, and this even if thou wilt of thyself be cast off. 17 And now it came to pass that these were the last words which the angel spake unto Alma, and he departed. And again, warning peoples or civilizations of consequences of sin is an entirely different thing than threatening one man with imminent destruction in order to coerce him. How would that not violate agency and descend into unrighteous dominion? And again, why would God do that to this one prophet -- especially a prophet we believe to be valiant and faithful -- the one who led in this dispensation? Please note that Joseph never said or wrote anything about this -- all the ever increasingly exaggerated accounts of it came decades later -- all based on the same fanciful source. I do not believe this story came from Joseph.
In the podcast you asked for examples of when the Lord had compelled action under duress. What about Moses and Zipporah? See Exodus 4:24-26. The Lord was about to kill Moses for not circumcising his son and was spared because Zipporah circumcised him right there. I'm not saying I agree that the account of Joseph and the flaming sword is true, but this example is an outlier.
If the angel with the flaming sword was from the adversary, was the angel Nephi/Moroni that gave him the plates from the adversary? Would make sense. The BOM def drives people away from the Bible.
That's interesting. I haven't ever heard someone say the book of women drives people away from the Bible. I'm curious to know more about that perspective.
@@MichelleBStone I guess I shouldn’t say it drives them away but being LDS for over 40 years, I can definitely say way more emphasis is placed on the BOM over the Bible. So, it does take away some of the impact the Bible has and I’m sure you’ve heard the phrase the BOM is the MOST perfect book on earth. And the Bible is only as correct as it’s been translated. So in essence I feel like most LDS tend to stick to the BOM over the Bible.
@@MichelleBStone love the vid by the way. It’s nice to see members who think for themselves. I’ve been through similar situations with bishops where I was miraculously healed, and was told I was doing the wrong things. Pulled into bishops office I was told on by other members cause my wife and I were “following satan”. Lol. My disobedience to church authorities led me to AMAZING spiritual experiences that I would wouldn’t change for anything.
we know the sealing power from 132 is real, why the rest of the 132 section be not true? we know the oath we take with a death threat is real ,why the polygamy verses in the same 132 section be not true? why the angle and sword story not be true? knowing these things are true why the lord would nt threaten j s because of his refusal if he stood in the way of the blessing intended by god for the church be not removed? i beleive there are intended blessing in the section 132 for humanity even if we dont understand it and a bunch of people messed up in their effort to live polygamy.
The true story of Jonah goes against what you say about how the Lord would never be harsh like that. It's a true story since Jesus Himself affirms it and relates how He will be 'in the heart of the earth' similar to Jonah. (Unless you believe Jesus is an allegory story too) *Rolls Eyes* Anyways. Jonah refused and ran away. He got eaten by a big fish, and I personally believe it was 3 full days that he was indeed in Sheol (the grave, also known as hell) where Jonah repented. Jonah died and would have been judged for not harkening to the Lord like he should have the first time and temporarily lost His agency. The Lord was merciful to him and let him follow along with the command to let the city know they needed to repent. The Lord gives. The Lord takes away. Blessed be the Lord. Job is another example of how 'harsh' the Lord can be to then give better blessings. But it's ok. People will accept what they want to believe.
It’s surprising that you don’t think that that is who God is when he drowned everyone on earth in the flood supposedly and had the temple ceremony threaten everyone with death if they simply talk about what happens in there. And don’t forget him killing everyone’s firstborn son, unless they had a lambs blood across the top of their door. The reason why Mormonism and all religions are full of contradictions is because they are invented by men and changed to fit the moment over time.
If the angel came from God and exercised what you call unrighteous dominion, wouldn't that be God exercising unrighteous dominion? I'd be careful there sister.
I think Michelle nailed it. There's no excuse for this, and any God with half a brain would never command that. Michelle tried to reason it out in every possible way, but she clearly proves that it just can't be done. Joseph simply wanted to get jiggy with every chick in town, and so he took advantage of his Prophet-status and made up the whole "An angel with a flaming sword said I have to" nonsense to get his way. Well, it worked.
Thank you Miles. I appreciate the good feedback. I do want to say that I have a very different perspective of Joseph Smith. I don't think he was primarily libido driven, and I don't think there is good evidence of sexual relationships, but I understand that people disagree. Right now DNA evidence is on the side of him not being sexually involved. Unless at some point DNA proves otherwise, I don't know if we'll ever know for certain.
I think you must of missed the first part where she clearly said that there is no contemporary evidence or writing from Joseph himself. All of these stories came decades after Joseph's death and with a motive to prove that he practiced polygamy.
@@ejs7721 You think that he didn't practice polygamy at all, and it was this huge conspiracy against him? If that's the case, then why would anyone want to be a part of this religion where everybody is backstabbing their own leader? I guess it might make a good case for RLDS, but mainstream Mormonism would completely fall apart if Brigham and the rest were that awful.
@@mylesmarkson1686 If you really want to know then listen to all of her videos and check out Hemlock knots. But just to note, after looking at the original sources and Joseph's own words, it would have to be a bigger conspiracy to believe that he did practice it.
@@ejs7721 Completely ridiculous. He had over 30 wives. If he really only had 1, and I wanted to spread rumors around that he was a polygamist, I might say 3 or 4, but not 30. The more I keep adding, the easier it would be to disprove. We already have tons of evidence out there. Just Google it and find out. The only question is exactly how many did he have, and the way he was adding wives to his collection as fast as he could, he probably didn't know himself. And also think of how stupid Brigham Young and John Taylor and the others would have to be to over-ride and backstab the founder of their One True Church who said that polygamy was forbidden. They wouldn't dare do that if they believed that he was a true prophet. Do you not think these things through? And it would have to be a bigger conspiracy to believe that he did practice it? What on earth are you smoking?
Only one account says the sword was "flaming." ensignpeakfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Encouraging-Joseph-Smith-to-Practice-Plural-Marriage-The-Accounts-of-the-Angel-with-a-Drawn-Sword.pdf
Brian, I'm not sure why this is an important point regarding the information in this episode, but your own page you link to lists two accounts: Orson F. Whitney's biography of Heber C. Kimball, "An angel with a flaming sword descended from the courts of glory and, confronting the Prophet," and Eliza Snow's 1887 account, " he was himself afraid to promulgate it until the angel came and stood beside him with flaming sword and bade him do the command of God." Am I misunderstanding your sources?
I’ve felt for a long time that if the angel with the sword story is true, it was not an angel of God but of the devil.
Me too.
I have a friend in my homeschool community who had an unassisted birth recently. I’d never heard of it until I decided to have water births with a midwife with my last two babies. I had the most perfect and beautiful birth with my last child. Now she’s 7 :)
Thank you so much for putting together this podcast and all of your research!!!
Thank you for your faith while at the same time challenging the traditions of our fathers. This is exactly the place I want to live in as well.
I had never heard of the story of the angel with the flaming sword forcing Joseph to practice polygamy. And now I can toss it into the Mormon folklore category. It’s a fairy tale!
Can you tell me how I can find other homeschoolers? Thanks.
I never heard of unassisted births either, until this last year, but there is a whole community of women who do it. Truth on how to correctly birth is out there. Learn Hypno-active Birthing.
@@icecreamladydriver1606 sorry this response is so late in coming. I found many homeschooling families by searching for homeschool groups listed on Facebook for my local area. I’ve made many dear friends through the homeschool community. If you live in Utah county, I can share some links with you. Homeschool Hub of Southern Utah County is one to know about.
You noted that Brian Hales and others have been careful to assure people that those who do not wish to practice polygamy won’t have to. According to D&C 132 that is not the case. D&C 132:4-5 clearly states that those who do not abide by the new and everlasting covenant, which according to D&C 132 is plural marriage, will be damned “for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my glory.” (132:4). And in verse five it further reinforces the concept “For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.”
In verse 21 we then find this: “Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory” referring to verses 19-20 where it is noted that we can be gods - but only if we abide “my law”. Then in 28 we read “I am the Lord thy God, and will give unto thee the law of my Holy priesthood, as was ordained by me and my Father before the world was.” Finally in 32 we read “Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.” This verse is then followed by a detailed explanation of what that law is and how it is to be practiced - polygamy.
While some would argue that this “law” spoken of is broken into sections, I do not believe that to be a correct reading. This whole section is all about justifying polygamy and all manner of sin (26) - it is a dream section for those who wish to commit whoredoms and all manner of iniquity under the guise of religion. Here is my point, according to 4-5,32 those who do not keep this law will not be saved, but are damned and will not enter into God’s glory. So, if you are a good member of the church and expect to be exalted you must keep the law or be damned and not enter God’s presence. The claim in this section is that this law was before the foundation of the world (5,11,28). This major contradiction seeks to pre-empt all prior teachings of monogamy in just one section of modern day scripture and make polygamy the rule and not monogamy. So no, an honest reading indicates that this will not be an option if we wish to enter God’s presence according to D&C 132 as polygamy is required by the law from before the foundation of the world.
Excellent! Thank you! I have an upcoming episode along these lines. This is very helpful. I love your comments!
Thank you for explaining so clearly the justified pain Emma would have experienced, IF what the church essays tell us is true that Joseph collected other wives, and some of them behind her back. I love that you point out that she didn’t sign up to marry an adulterer.
Also, sorry you had to deal with a bishop who should have kept his counsel to himself… D&C 1:19 “The weak things of the world shall come forth and break down the mighty and strong ones, that man should not counsel his fellow man, neither trust in the arm of flesh-"
I'm shocked that a bishop would insert himself into a child birth matter. Then again, my shelf exploded off the wall when the church inserted themselves into the Covid vaccination conversation in the way that they did. I am grateful there are many inspired people who just press forward in faith regardless of what mistakes authority figures make along the way.
Wow! I am embarrassed that I never stopped to consider this story of Joseph and the flaming sword in the light of all God has revealed about how heaven works. It so clearly comes from the playbook of the adversary! Whatever level of truth there is to this story, God’s angels do not behave according to those principles. Your words of truth here are a healing balm. Thank you!
Also, I very much appreciate your vulnerability and willingness to share this pregnancy and birth experience. There are still some things for us as a Church to learn in this Restoration. Priesthood is a real power and authority from God, but it should be clear that Priesthood does not preside over ALL things-it certainly is not the presiding authority over birth, for men have no capacity to give birth. We’ll get there! :)
Priesthood is God's power, so it can be involved or preside over everything that we allow it to in our life. But priesthood holders do not preside over everyone's individual lives.
@@TShirtAndReeboks We have interpreted Priesthood as being _the_ power of God, but scriptures continuously testify that priesthood is “after” the order of the Son of God. I believe the true order of the Son of God includes the power and authority of the priestesses, who preside over such ordinances as birth and conferring the light of Christ.
I can’t imagine why a bishop would share an opinion on whether or not a member of his ward should have a home birth. Having been a Bishop, I find this appalling. That’s some serious D&C 121 abusing of the priesthood authority.
I’m constantly amazed by the stories I hear out of Utah.
Now I can see how extraordinarily inappropriate it was. At the time I was not independent minded enough to not know that it wasn't my problem. He was a good and humble man, but this was NOT his stewardship. I am now thankful for the experience because it taught me valuable lessons.
Exactly, agency is essential. We're suppose to believe that God would allow the most horrific acts of evil against humanity ,but when it comes to not willing to practice polygamy, you'll be destroyed. 🤦
In addition to all of your great points, a friend pointed out to me that the current LDS narrative suggests that an angel had to come with a drawn sword to coerce Joseph into practicing what he was allegedly already practising. How does that make any sense?
20:20 Why didn’t God send his Jedi angel to stop Joseph from allowing Martin Harris to borrow the transcript of the BOM?
I love your take on this flaming sword business and I had also come to the same conclusions. Bless you for articulating it so well. I am amazed that you give such grace to your bishop, though. I am sure that was a very trying time for you and your husband, but glad you can spot unrighteous dominion when you see it. Makes it easier to see going forward. This whole covid jab mess has been the same way with titled individuals.
Heather I could not agree with you more, especially about this whole covid jab mess. It has very much shaken my testimony.
My mind is blown about your Bishop involving himself in your birth process, and then threatening your recommend or DCF!!! 🤯 HE is the psycho!!! (And I'm a retired L&D nurse.)
My daughter had the same prompting to have an unassisted birth for her last two. Fortunately, her husband was on board. She knew that she should not tell anyone, however. The info was even withheld from most of her siblings. I’m glad you decided to relate the story. Thank you. I appreciated that you prayed to God because of two conflicting things that you were supposed to do, and put it in his hands. He is good.
I am so excited to hear your experience with birth and receiving direction on that. I had a similar experience! Before becoming pregnant with my fouth I was in the temple and was told very clearly through the spirit that for my next birth, only my husband and I needed to be there. I had faith in that and clung to it during the whole pregnancy and did my own prenatal care and did not hire a midwife. It was exactly what we needed! I had the most beautiful and sacred experience and learned things beyond words. I grew more than I could have imagined and received precious things from my Heavenly Parents through Christ. Birth is a womans stewardship, it is an opportunity to access and exercise the most divine feminine power. We are literally practicing Heavenly Mother's work during that sacred time. I have written about this (applied all different births, not just unassisted) in a study manual called Joyful Spiritual Birth. Thank you for sharing. You are not alone!
Thank you for addressing this story! I had heard it from a friend and never knew what to make of it.
If you consider all the many evil things Brigham said about Emma after Joseph’s death, then the parts where 132 condemn and warn her of destruction are dripping with brighams contempt for her. I bet he loved putting that in there. When he died he not only had to face God but also Joseph. His number 2, his second in command, tried to marry his own wife, attacked and belittled her and her reputation. Now imagine the story of Joseph in jail and the guards talking about raping women and how Joseph scared them to death even though he was a prisoner to the point they shut up. Now think of that man, whose wife was smeared and attacked by another man, essentially robbed, and left to fend for herself, facing brigham in death.
Absolutely awesome! There are ao many stories we've grown up hearing and have just accepted...but listening to you dissect these points is so eye-opening to me. Thank you so much for the time and effort you have expended for all of our benefit!
I LOVE your baby experience. I've gone from wanting nothing to do with natural birth, never wanted to talk to anyone who does it to now, it breaks my heart seeing love ones go the hosptial route to giving birth. It pains my soul. We women are not taught how to properly give birth and the truth is we are fully capable of doing it on our own and there are skills to learn how to do it. The 2 things that really educated me on it was taking Hypno-active birthing class and reading Ina May's Guide To Childbirth. The first natural birth experience I had, I hold the most tenderly to my heart and it showed me the deepth of my husband's love for me (and no it is not the same as a hospital birth), it truly felt like we were in this together, so when I was pregnant with my next child I wanted to make sure he was on board for a natural birth because it was no longer just my choice and my way, it was OUR choice and OUR baby we were having together.
Also as I LEARNED how to give birth naturally, 2 scriptures came to mind: "simple and precious truth" that luckily have not been fully forgotten. And I could now "choose for myself and not just be acted upon."
I landed here after reading about “Angel Fred” in Ronald Karren’s book! Listening to you reminds me how that even though I left the LDS church a year (or two?) ago, I still have an affinity for the Saints as individuals. ❤
Yes!!! I’d love to see a discussion between Michelle and Brian Hales.
I love your viewpoint on this topic! So well put and I love the connection to agency. Thank you so much for these awesome videos!
This video was one of my favorites-thank you so much and the minute you said you would share a personal experience about something the lord guided you to do something that seemed crazy I knew immediately what it was because I have had similar experiences (homebirth that was unassisted). Sharing that story was perfection to me because it really does illustrate how God works with couples and how God delivers personal revelation. Thank you for you sincere and humble and strong statements in this video. I heard the flaming sword story as a little girl and accepted it because I didn’t know any better. Your analysis of it was so clear and precise! Thank you again for taking the time to make these videos and share your perspective and research and personal revelation. What a treasure these are!
❤️❤️❤️
Thank you!
Wow. That was a beautiful video. I appreciate your spirit and the manner in which you expressed yourself, thoughts, and information you wanted to share. I absolutely agree with you on everything. And I also love home births. Some of the most sacred moments in my life.
thanks so much for being willing to share your unassisted birth story with this topic. it was the perfect illustration of the principles taught and shared. i will be eternally grateful for the profound experiences of our 5 home births. we knew from the moment we chose to study & learn together to prepare for the arrival of our first that it was a gift from god. it set precedent right at the beginning of our marriage the importance of working, learning & making decisions together. we celebrated our 20th year yesterday, and i am so deeply grateful for our heavenly parents and joseph & emma - for their example to cleave to one another & be one ❤️❤️
Yay for homebirth! I just had my first homebirth several months ago (at God's command) and it is truly a beautiful thing.
I'm wondering if you will be doing an episode on Christ's polygamy? I’ve heard some polygamy apologists use the claim that Christ was a polygamist and when I ask them for scriptural evidence, all I get is crickets or they vaguely mention the story of Mary and Martha. It's amazing how much content there is with this subject. I'm sure there is so much you could cover!
Congrats! I do love homebirth!
I am planning an episode on the Old Testament and one on the New Testament (which will include the claims that Jesus was a polygamist.) The claims are really bad -- extremely thin and weak -- yet people cling to them.
It’s just the Stoddards that are propagating this lie. It’s so evil to equate Christ with such unholiness.
Thanks for this episode! The story of the Angel with the flaming sword has always bothered me. You touched on Brian Hales assurances that no one will have to practice polygamy if they don’t really want to but this story and many others show an awful lot of coercion and unrighteous dominion going on in the early church. 😒
And what about these men who had multiple deceased women sealed to them? Wilford Woodruff was said to have sealed over 250 dead women to himself and a more recent example is Ezra Taft Benson sealing his deceased (first!) cousin to himself. Where do these women get a choice? I often hear apologetics explain that the women can reject the sealing but what alternative does she have? And how come women couldn’t/ can’t just choose random dead men to seal to themselves? And what about the situations where the wife dies first and the man chooses to get sealed to a second wife, the first wife didn’t give her consent, where is her choice? It’s so maddening to me to hear people try to explain it all away with God will work it all out or something like that. 🤯
So I heard something in a family night on Pioneer Day… my aunt said that the flaming sword came to Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lighner… but I thought it came to Joseph smith and then he told Lightner that she had to do it cuz of the angel… anyone know the answer? Did it happen to them both?
Jacob 2 & Jacob 3 says it all “ raise up seed” has several connotations, how did they get polygamy from Jacob 2, especially after the consequences of sexual transgressions are mentioned in these chapters.
I love you! Thanks for your study and personal study ❤
Thank you I really appreciate your insight and the way you explain your thoughts and the scriptures. I look forward to more episodes.
Loved the episode. I always thought that story was weird and suspect. Man, your bishop was a piece of work. I hope he learned something. I can't imagine dealing with that. I'm a Bishop's wife and can't imagine my husband interjecting into a person's life like that.
Thank you! I know it sounds strange, but he actually was a very kind and humble man. He was just truly terrified. The day he found out and first called us in, he told me that he had spoken to an OB on the high counsel who told him that any woman who failed to use the wonderful advances God had given us (medicalized birth) was either badly deceived or incredibly foolish. I knew he was acting out of deep care (which is probably part of what made this so hard -- I definitely didn't want to make the bishop's job harder.) I ended up being thankful for the experience because it has given me such a deeper understanding and appreciation of order and stewardship. It is so strange that we don't even recognize a woman's stewardship in revelations of how she will give birth. (We believe we needed men - doctors - to come and fix birth for women because, I guess, God set it up so badly.) Anyway, I know my bishop was embarrassed afterward, which makes me feel bad, but I am hopeful that he learned some valuable lessons just as my husband and I did.
@@MichelleBStone
I guess counseling could be fine(even though I don't think it's a bishops place in those matters), but threaten to take your temple recommend away is so over the top. I've heard of others getting theirs taken away for not listening"sustaining" their priesthood leaders. Persuasion doesn't work if you are threatening something.
You seem like such a sweet woman to handle that. Sweeter than me. Lol
@@jackiechoate6163 it was definitely a struggle and it hurt the relationship. His insinuation about my temple recommend was subtle, but definitely there. He was way way out of line, but I know he was acting out of genuine fear and concern, not a desire to control. Still not okay, but definitely easier to forgive. 😉
@@MichelleBStone Your story reminded me a little of something. It wasn't a warning situation like yours, but people, many of them at church, asked or assumed I was pregnant when I just had a belly that wasn't flat because of diastasis recti and maybe bloating as well. This was some time after our 3rd child was born and after our 4th. The 4th (and last) is turning six soon, and just a few weeks ago the other Primary music lady that I serve with asked "Did you swallow a watermelon seed?" I just said no. Couldn't believe she would ask that, but she's old enough to be my mom. I'm glad it doesn't offend me anymore. And I am happier than ever with the way my body looks. . . . I know they are kind and would just like to have seen another one of our cute babies, especially if we got a boy, because we have all girls.
I’m just baffled that a bishop or president of the church think it’s their stewardship to tell you what health decisions are best for you or your family. And then he calls in your husband alone? Omgosh, Michelle!🙈 You are a brave, strong woman and much more Christlike than I am because I get really angry when this happens. I really struggle with unrighteous dominion!
Thank you for sharing such a personal story! If you ever share your birth stories, count me in! I love a good birth story! UA has always been a dream of mine, but we are done having kids, so it would have to be one of those "I didn't know I was pregnant" stories. lol
I have had a similar experience with my husband regarding another controversial subject (don't want to get your channel flagged). Thankfully the Bishop didn't get involved, but it did take some work to get my husband and I on the same page!
Luckily my husband and I are on the same page with that one 😉
Something that would be interesting to compare would be the accounts about Joseph and the sword-wielding angel, and the story of Nephi slaying Laban. Both were commanded to do something seemingly immoral, but both had vastly different consequences and lasting repercussions.
"This is how psychos die." Hilarious! You're awesome! Thank you for your vulnerability and example. Love you so much. And your husband. I think it's so cool that this whole thing began because he received revelation. What an amazing fruit of that revelation he received.
Hitting the nail on the head, once again! ❤
Just an FYI, the reference to D&C 28:37 is 38:27.
Thank you! Sigh, I must have copied it wrong. I've corrected it in the notes in the description. Thanks for catching that and letting me know!
@@MichelleBStone no problem. That’s a whole lot of work - just keep at it!
incredible incredible!!! bravissimo! high fives all around. you are an inspired restorationist!
Lol😂😂😂that T-shirt is classic.
Holy COW about the reaction of the bishop. I've learned how people freak out when people are breaking out of the narrative/programming, but wow he was in deep.
"20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.". 2 Peter 1:20
Repent (do something) or be destroyed (suffer the consequences) is the theme of about half of the old testament and hardly a violation of agency.
Ugh, how is it the bishops place to disagree with a home birth? 😮
Thanks for your excellent investigative work... into these very murky waters.🙃 (of the church's history).
BTW, thanks for sharing that difficult story about your 9th.
Thank you for your insight. You make good arguments. I too came to the conclusion that many of the stories told and the history of the church have exaggerations and even falsehoods to justice a narrative that then men who came after him wanted to live out. And wow… that is amazing you gave birth at home that many times!!! I’m a Christmas baby as well. 😃
I love this story of you deciding to have a free birth 🤍🤟🏼
So sorry you faced so much opposition for following your mama intuition. Your temple recommend?? My goodness. 🤦♀️ ugh.
I love this series! thank you for all you’re doing 🤍
I was unaware of this story, but it sounds like a demon angel to me. If there is any truth to it, I would have to assume that was the adversary and Joseph was doing his best to resist it.
Thank you for tactfully sharing this message! I agree👏👏👏 with you 💯
You are so amazing! Thank you for sharing
Can't believe I'm just now seeing this video. Oh my goodness... that birthing story had me on the edge of my seat. How freaking amazing!!! I can totally see how an experience like that would strengthen and unite a marriage.
Very much enjoyed hearing your experience.
Weird that the bishop got involved 🤔.
Absolutely LOVE this video!! That flaming sword BS is straight up folklore.
Not one word of it makes an ounce of sense, it never has.
I know this is old but thanks for doing such a great video😇🙏
So I’m just getting into this series after seeing you on Midnight Mormons. Do you have an episode on the implications if you’re correct? That’s what I’m really trying to wrap my mind around.
Thanks for asking. I don't have one specific episode, but that is discussed in numerous different episodes. The way I see it is the church has not been at all harmed by getting rid of blood atonement, racial doctrines, Adam God theory, and other doctrines / ideas taught mainly by Brigham young. We seem to be able to be at peace with letting these doctrines go, even though he taught them as the president of the church, so why would polygamy be different?
This episode may be helpful. Let me know if I'm not understanding correctly, but I think what you may be asking is how to reconcile our idea that "the prophet can never lead the church astray" with the understanding that some of them may have taught ideas that are not correct. It's interesting because anyone who did not see the masks and vaccines as being from God has had to grapple with the same conundrum. If that is your question this might be the best episode to start with. Thanks for asking.
ruclips.net/video/oilK4MpN7_Q/видео.html
This angel proclamation seems to be more of a secret combination of those pushing the polygamy agenda decades after Joseph died. My personal belief is polygamy is a sin in the same category as adultery & fornication.
Agree and very good and well explained, how do we understand Exodus 12 ?
Michelle, thank you for sharing the story of your home birth experience. I'm glad that things eventually worked out all right in the end. I strive to stay close to the Lord with all my struggles. I hope and pray like you do that the story of Joseph Smith and Emma being coerced into polygamy by the Lord and a heavenly angel. To me too that doesn't seem like something a loving Heavenly Father that is so dedicated to free agency would do.
I've been a member my whole life with "pioneer stock" on both sides of my ancestry and I've never heard the story of the angel with thr flaming sword forcing Joseph to do polygamy. Love your conclusions and its astounding more haven't questioned it on its face.
I feel like the Lord set all things in place, and we are in a fallen world, however the Lord provides direction and revelation to lessen or avoid some hard inevitable consequences.
For the sword, if this is true I would think that the angel of the Lord presented imagery to Joseph for Joseph to his mind understand the consequences of a prophet not following the Lords commandments. Joseph because of his position would have severed his connection with the Lord and would have divided himself from exhalation.
One thing to consider is Joseph learned early on that when the Lord commands a thing that he must do it, due to the lost manuscript. So it surprises me that he would hesitate but also gives precedence to Joseph fear of man/wife.
I feel like the message given was that the sealing power must be expanded and if Joseph did not follow counsel of Gods angels then Joseph would lose his promise and essentially excommunicate himself and would be left without the priesthood. Imagine becoming a fallen prophet and where to go from there? That torment psychologically, and would he attempt to become a false prophet? Would he lose Gods protection and fall victim to murder without being a martyr? Things to consider, this is very interesting to me.
I try to think of what the flaming sword actually is, what it means. Thank you for your video!
I used to harshly judge people who did homebirth and especially unassisted birth and ended up through research and revelation having a homebirth and then also an unassisted birth. It is totally not appropriate for a Bishop to interject his Priesthood authority on the matter and those who judge are in the wrong.
You’re right about agency as the supreme standard to measure if it is from God or Satan?
I first read about it in "The Work & the Glory" Books saying it was true but the books are written in fiction.
How about when men say, "but there are more righteous women than men. " honestly, that is such a strange statement. So women are MORE righteous and get PUNISHED by having to share their husband? That makes ZERO sense.
Such a fantastic insight! I am not at all a fan of any of the silly explanations we come up with to justify polygamy. That definitely qualifies as one of them.
It’s rather insulting to men to suggest they are less capable of making good decisions.
And how much did Joseph himself teach of obedience, with one scripture in particular in DC 130 that blessing come by obedience and that more light and knowledge comes by obedience. Further on agency, the items required for agency are found in 2 Ne. 2, which are: must be a choice between good and evil or opposition, there must be a knowledge of the consequences both good and evil, there must be an enticement to do one or the other and finally, there must be freedom to choose between the one or the other. Angel and sword violate the "enticement" part, which means to attract, and leaves no choice, except under duress, compulsion by threat or force. Then, unless Joseph was wrong in DC 124:36-45 that only by principles of righteousness can the priesthood operate, which he lists, such as persuasion, gentleness, kindness, etc., and attempting to exercise control or dominion or compulsion, then is the Spirit withdrawn and "Amen to the priesthood or authority." The angel and sword story calls into question both the BofM, DC 124 (and others), Joseph himself and so much more! Strangely, claiming it took and angel threatening death to get Joseph to obey seems contrary to Brian Hales' timeline: visited thrice between 1834-1842. First plural "wife" being Fanny Alger in 1835 plus 5 more sealings before the final threatening 1842 visit? Why then the angel and sword threat, if he was being obedient? Great episode. I am learning so much in detail of what I have suspected and have learned myself but you are adding so much more!
Fantastic insight! Thank you!
I agree with you that this is 100% against agency however, I can honestly see Joseph's Smith telling people this, look at DC 132:54 where he is saying God is telling Emma if she does not accept him having multiple wives she will de destroyed. Even the gospel topic essays say that even though he told people that this was the third warning there was evidence that he already engaged in polygamy before the third warning from the angel.
As one that has study psychology their whole life DC 132 never really felt good.
I agree that most of 132 is absolutely horrible. But, the more I've studied it, the more evidence has piled up to show that Joseph Smith had nothing to do with 132. Everything that Joseph ever said or did completely opposed it, and it didn't appear until 8 years after his death when Brigham Young first presented it in Utah.
@@MichelleBStone So then the question is who wrote 132 if J.S did not and why did Brigham Young present it.
It almost feels like Brigham Young is the one at fault or it feels like you may be hinting that Brigham Young altered it or made it up to push forward his views on polygamy. I think it would be just as bad because the LDS church as we know it followed Brigham Young as it really became his church after Joseph Smith died.
I know a lot of us get caught up with just what Joseph Smith did however, Brigham Young in a lot of ways is a very important figure to the church especially since he was chosen to lead this branch of Joseph Smiths beliefs.
Also God keeps his own laws. He tells us to use persuasion and that is also what he uses with us.
That was the biggest takeaway from this video. “The bishop doesn’t matter”. Lol cause they kinda don’t.
I absolutely LOVE that you had an unassisted home birth! You're incredible!
Are you still a member?
@@marcelinoramirez8672 yes, very much. Why do you ask?
It's mostly women that have produced the first-hand accounts of his practicing plural marriage. Including his plural wives.
It always boggles my mind when a priesthood leader inserts himself into a personal matter as if he has any authority in a personal decision. That is unrighteous dominion, pure and simple. Their stewardship does not extend to personal health decisions or any other personal decision. And it’s important to tell them to back off when they try to control your personal decisions.
I have a friend, and I'll be meeting her in person this week, who has freebirthed and sells a $10 eBook on how to free birth. :-) I have a question: how did your bishop know that you were planning on doing that?
Loved the episode!
It was bizarre! He called me into his office to discuss something else -- apparently a member of the ward had complained about something I said 🙄. In his small talk, he asked if we were doing another home birth (or if we had seen the light) and if we at least had a really good midwife. I was so shocked at his question that I looked at my husband wondering if he had said something (we still weren't in the same page.) He said aloud, "I didn't tell him anything," so that started a whole bunch more questions. He did manage to tell me the complaint a ward never had made, which was annoying but not a big deal, but he said he now believed the reason he had called me in was about this. That's how it all started.
@@MichelleBStone I see. I would be shocked, too. He didn't have that kind of stewardship over you.
@@amandadangerfieldpiano I completely agree. I was quite disgusted to hear about this happening. So sorry Michelle that you had to experience that.
Amen
What about the woman who was turned into a pillar of salt for looking backward, against God’s command? What about the cities of Sodom and Gamora (spelling) destroyed in God’s wrath for failing to obey? The smiting of the innocent firstborn of the Egyptians when pharaoh’s heart was too hard to bend to God’s will? One might argue that Ammon, on behalf of the Lord, stood in for an angel with a drawn sword and smote the arms off of how many who where only exercising their agency.
I do not believe in, practice or have any positive thoughts toward polygamy. Merely a fellow believer in Christ who sees a couple of errors in your argument here. Pointing one out in love ❤
Thank you for your comment. I tried to make the distinction between consequences of actions as compared to threats to compel action. Consequences are not an abridgment of agency, but threats and compulsion (as the angel in this story would have been) are.
As for Lot's wife, I posted this article in Episode 17. I hope you will find it of value.
www.feministmormonhousewives.org/2014/05/claiming-our-heroines-the-untold-story-of-lots-wife/
@@MichelleBStone I dunno. I just reread Gen 1: 15-17 and it sounds pretty threatening to me. Do as I say or you’ll be consumed.
Don’t get me wrong. I understand what you’re saying. But I think trying to distinguish between threats of punishment for not obeying and meeting out consequences of not obeying is the same as debating the difference between water and H2O
5 babies at home!! Awesome. The hospital must hate you! Your Bishop sounds like he let his work as the Hospital Administrator interfere with his ministry ;-)
Thank you! Actually, I've had 7 babies at home, 5 unassisted. (I got the numbers wrong because I was flusteted. That only happens when you have more babies than brain cells LOL.)
The first vision wasn’t written about for many years after the time it supposedly happened as well. You must take that worth a grain of salt as well.
Respectfully, as much as I understand and agree with your argument on the importance of agency, I think comparing it to the story of the angel is a weak argument. Jesus and God throughout the scriptures threaten people with destruction who do not repent/follow their commandments. For example, In 3 Nephi Jesus claims that he destroyed the wicked due to their iniquities and unfaithfulness. Even the Book of Mormon has an example with this principle (also concerning an angel) with Alma the younger. The angel threatened him with destruction if he didn’t change his ways and follow the lord. Just my two cents.
If you read the story I think you will find that the angel did not threaten Alma. Just like with Saul, he convinced him with reason and awe. Mosiah 27:11 And as I said unto you, as they were going about rebelling against God, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto them; and he descended as it were in a cloud; and he spake as it were with a voice of thunder, which caused the earth to shake upon which they stood;
12 And so great was their astonishment, that they fell to the earth, and understood not the words which he spake unto them.
13 Nevertheless he cried again, saying: Alma, arise and stand forth, for why persecutest thou the church of God? For the Lord hath said: This is my church, and I will establish it; and nothing shall overthrow it, save it is the transgression of my people.
14 And again, the angel said: Behold, the Lord hath heard the prayers of his people, and also the prayers of his servant, Alma, who is thy father; for he has prayed with much faith concerning thee that thou mightest be brought to the knowledge of the truth; therefore, for this purpose have I come to convince thee of the power and authority of God, that the prayers of his servants might be answered according to their faith.
15 And now behold, can ye dispute the power of God? For behold, doth not my voice shake the earth? And can ye not also behold me before you? And I am sent from God.
16 Now I say unto thee: Go, and remember the captivity of thy fathers in the land of Helam, and in the land of Nephi; and remember how great things he has done for them; for they were in bondage, and he has delivered them. And now I say unto thee, Alma, go thy way, and seek to destroy the church no more, that their prayers may be answered, and this even if thou wilt of thyself be cast off.
17 And now it came to pass that these were the last words which the angel spake unto Alma, and he departed.
And again, warning peoples or civilizations of consequences of sin is an entirely different thing than threatening one man with imminent destruction in order to coerce him. How would that not violate agency and descend into unrighteous dominion? And again, why would God do that to this one prophet -- especially a prophet we believe to be valiant and faithful -- the one who led in this dispensation?
Please note that Joseph never said or wrote anything about this -- all the ever increasingly exaggerated accounts of it came decades later -- all based on the same fanciful source. I do not believe this story came from Joseph.
In the podcast you asked for examples of when the Lord had compelled action under duress. What about Moses and Zipporah? See Exodus 4:24-26. The Lord was about to kill Moses for not circumcising his son and was spared because Zipporah circumcised him right there.
I'm not saying I agree that the account of Joseph and the flaming sword is true, but this example is an outlier.
If the angel with the flaming sword was from the adversary, was the angel Nephi/Moroni that gave him the plates from the adversary? Would make sense. The BOM def drives people away from the Bible.
That's interesting. I haven't ever heard someone say the book of women drives people away from the Bible. I'm curious to know more about that perspective.
@@MichelleBStone I guess I shouldn’t say it drives them away but being LDS for over 40 years, I can definitely say way more emphasis is placed on the BOM over the Bible. So, it does take away some of the impact the Bible has and I’m sure you’ve heard the phrase the BOM is the MOST perfect book on earth. And the Bible is only as correct as it’s been translated. So in essence I feel like most LDS tend to stick to the BOM over the Bible.
@@MichelleBStone love the vid by the way. It’s nice to see members who think for themselves. I’ve been through similar situations with bishops where I was miraculously healed, and was told I was doing the wrong things. Pulled into bishops office I was told on by other members cause my wife and I were “following satan”. Lol. My disobedience to church authorities led me to AMAZING spiritual experiences that I would wouldn’t change for anything.
we know the sealing power from 132 is real, why the rest of the 132 section be not true? we know the oath we take with a death threat is real ,why the polygamy verses in the same 132 section be not true? why the angle and sword story not be true? knowing these things are true why the lord would nt threaten j s because of his refusal if he stood in the way of the blessing intended by god for the church be not removed? i beleive there are intended blessing in the section 132 for humanity even if we dont understand it and a bunch of people messed up in their effort to live polygamy.
The true story of Jonah goes against what you say about how the Lord would never be harsh like that.
It's a true story since Jesus Himself affirms it and relates how He will be 'in the heart of the earth' similar to Jonah. (Unless you believe Jesus is an allegory story too) *Rolls Eyes*
Anyways.
Jonah refused and ran away.
He got eaten by a big fish, and I personally believe it was 3 full days that he was indeed in Sheol (the grave, also known as hell) where Jonah repented.
Jonah died and would have been judged for not harkening to the Lord like he should have the first time and temporarily lost His agency.
The Lord was merciful to him and let him follow along with the command to let the city know they needed to repent.
The Lord gives. The Lord takes away.
Blessed be the Lord.
Job is another example of how 'harsh' the Lord can be to then give better blessings.
But it's ok.
People will accept what they want to believe.
Laban and Nephi
What if there are a lot more women in heaven than men?
Should the unmarried women stay single?
An honest question.
What if there are more men than women?
It’s surprising that you don’t think that that is who God is when he drowned everyone on earth in the flood supposedly and had the temple ceremony threaten everyone with death if they simply talk about what happens in there. And don’t forget him killing everyone’s firstborn son, unless they had a lambs blood across the top of their door. The reason why Mormonism and all religions are full of contradictions is because they are invented by men and changed to fit the moment over time.
If the angel came from God and exercised what you call unrighteous dominion, wouldn't that be God exercising unrighteous dominion? I'd be careful there sister.
I think it is clear that there was no angel. The story was a much later invention.
Crazy that you think your feelings get to dictate what the facts are. #mentalgymnastics
I think Michelle nailed it. There's no excuse for this, and any God with half a brain would never command that. Michelle tried to reason it out in every possible way, but she clearly proves that it just can't be done. Joseph simply wanted to get jiggy with every chick in town, and so he took advantage of his Prophet-status and made up the whole "An angel with a flaming sword said I have to" nonsense to get his way. Well, it worked.
Thank you Miles. I appreciate the good feedback. I do want to say that I have a very different perspective of Joseph Smith. I don't think he was primarily libido driven, and I don't think there is good evidence of sexual relationships, but I understand that people disagree. Right now DNA evidence is on the side of him not being sexually involved. Unless at some point DNA proves otherwise, I don't know if we'll ever know for certain.
I think you must of missed the first part where she clearly said that there is no contemporary evidence or writing from Joseph himself. All of these stories came decades after Joseph's death and with a motive to prove that he practiced polygamy.
@@ejs7721 You think that he didn't practice polygamy at all, and it was this huge conspiracy against him? If that's the case, then why would anyone want to be a part of this religion where everybody is backstabbing their own leader? I guess it might make a good case for RLDS, but mainstream Mormonism would completely fall apart if Brigham and the rest were that awful.
@@mylesmarkson1686 If you really want to know then listen to all of her videos and check out Hemlock knots. But just to note, after looking at the original sources and Joseph's own words, it would have to be a bigger conspiracy to believe that he did practice it.
@@ejs7721 Completely ridiculous. He had over 30 wives. If he really only had 1, and I wanted to spread rumors around that he was a polygamist, I might say 3 or 4, but not 30. The more I keep adding, the easier it would be to disprove. We already have tons of evidence out there. Just Google it and find out. The only question is exactly how many did he have, and the way he was adding wives to his collection as fast as he could, he probably didn't know himself. And also think of how stupid Brigham Young and John Taylor and the others would have to be to over-ride and backstab the founder of their One True Church who said that polygamy was forbidden. They wouldn't dare do that if they believed that he was a true prophet. Do you not think these things through? And it would have to be a bigger conspiracy to believe that he did practice it? What on earth are you smoking?
Only one account says the sword was "flaming." ensignpeakfoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Encouraging-Joseph-Smith-to-Practice-Plural-Marriage-The-Accounts-of-the-Angel-with-a-Drawn-Sword.pdf
Brian, I'm not sure why this is an important point regarding the information in this episode, but your own page you link to lists two accounts: Orson F. Whitney's biography of Heber C. Kimball, "An angel with a flaming sword descended from the courts of glory and, confronting the Prophet," and Eliza Snow's 1887 account, " he was himself afraid to promulgate it until the angel came and stood beside him with flaming sword and bade him do the command of God."
Am I misunderstanding your sources?