Polygamy = the traditions of men that see women as property vs. being daughters of God who have equal rights as men & have the right to be cherished & treated with respect!
Dear sister, you bring so much clarity to this subject. I love and appreciate you so much. Helping to bring so much common sense and reason to this topic. I feel like God has given you a gift to zero in on the confusion and conflict and work through it with reasonable facts and probable things that happened that has brought us to this point. It's time to clean things up. I love you for this work you are doing.
I don't even know how to respond to such a profoundly meaningful comment. You are encouraging me to keep going. It means the world to me. Thank you with all of my heart ❤
My shelf broke one year ago. I was a garment wearing, tithe paying, church and temple attending Mormon. I converted to the church at about 17. I have always struggled with the polygamy aspect and the racism that still exists in the church. I’ve often asked myself why God lives his daughters so very little and his sons so much, that he would cause a wife to become a sex toy to her husband among his other innumerable wives and concubines. Why would he condemn her to eternal hell, and only give access to him (God) from her husband? Why is a woman’s eternal gift to become invisible and forbidden to even have her children speak her name? Why do men in the church not only accept this as fact, but truly believe that women are meant only to have sex with and bear children, that women are irrelevant and without feelings? Men defend this practice to their dying breath. Why? I stopped attending church a year ago. I tried to go back about 6 months ago and their first hymn was “Praise to the Man”. I was physically I’ll. I could not sing those words and I sat there and cried so hard because the one time I try to reach out to the church, I get slapped in the face with praise of a man who set polygamy up to be worshipped and women to be used and abused. I never returned. I was a victim of child of child molestation from age 3 to age 9. I was raped at age 15 by an adult male stranger in Provo, Utah. God does not hear us when we cry out to him for deliverance. He does not care about his daughters. I love Jesus, because he cared about women and their struggles. I love Jesus because he does not honor men over women. All are loved by him. I’m so confused and hurt. I’m crying as I post this. I have been disowned by family over leaving the church. I have had such hatred and lies spewed about me for leaving the church. My FIL was a bishop 3 times and taught the gospel of polygamy for all eternity. He says it’s a woman’s place yo accept it and not ask questions. He doesn’t speak to me now. It’s really a blessing. I called him a Pharisee for his teachings. I’m better off without him and his whole family in my life. I’m living alone in an apartment, work and enjoy my children and grandchildren. That is my life. I’m enjoying your videos. If I EVER return to church, it will be because of women like you, who speak up and aren’t afraid of the truth. May the Lord bless you in your future endeavors.
You're story is heart breaking, Debbi. I'm amazed at your faith through such difficult and dark times. My journey hasn't been the same as yours, but I can very well relate to those feelings you've had about Joseph Smith. I used to be filled with deep disgust, anger and sorrow. In recent months, however, I've studied Joseph Smith and polygamy and have come to a different conclusion about him. After reading his statements that completely condemn any form of adultery, plural marriage, polygamy or whatever name it can be called, I was completely surprised and humbled, and even filled with respect for the man. I believe that God truly loves his sons and daughters, but because of what we've been taught about women and our heavenly Mother --referring to some of the things you mentioned in your post--it's sometimes difficult to break out of those (what I consider to be) false beliefs. And it sometimes feels like the heavens are silent. However, I'm seeing an interesting trend within the women in my life. I think the women of the church, and perhaps women everywhere are starting to find the divine feminine within them. I believe that the Divine Mother is within all of us and is beginning to break the bands that many women have been bound by. I've even heard some people say (even men in the church) that before the earth will be ready Christ's second coming, women will need to be given back their proper place in God's kingdom. I can't help but feel strongly that we need women such as YOU to help us break from the false beliefs and embrace the truth about our Heavenly Mother and our divine womanhood. Thank you for sharing your experiences. You are in my heart and thoughts, Debbi.
As a man who was raised in the church but no longer believes, the reason we accepted this stuff is because we've been straight up brainwashed to accept it. Men are brainwashed to be obedient and controlling and to be like little soldiers for the church. Almost none of the men really sit down and think about it, they just hear whitewashed versions of polygamy and so think it isn't a big deal. Once the info is laid before them entirely bare, not a lot of men can handle it, which is why they oftentimes will repeatedly regurgitate the whitewashed info they'd been fed their whole lives (it's an attempt to stop themselves from thinking). I don't know a lot of men who are excited for this kind of practice, it's more that they don't understand it. That's my two cents about modern men in the church
God does love His daughters as much as His sons! It's so sad that our culture sometimes give the impression that He doesn't... life is interesting, isn't it? We are all on our own individual paths back to God, including your FIL... trust God. HEAR HIM. Keep learning and growing. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Love you!!
You don’t have to return to the culture and the people in order to follow Christ. The Book of Mormon is true, and Christ loves you. Serve Christ in the way you feel is right for you and don’t associate with people who overtly pervert the ways of Christ and don’t feel ashamed for it. Pray for strength to heal and to humble your enemies. Hold onto your testimony and the healing power of Jesus Christ’s atonement and the evil doings of men will be insignificant to you. The power of the Holy Spirit is within you and you will be able to discern the truth of all things through faith in Christ.
Years ago when I was struggling with the concept of eternal plural marriage, you and others weren’t available to help me question 132 and I wasn’t reading enough scriptures to figure it out!! One thing that did bring me comfort was hearing Jewish scholar Dennis Prager say, “Torah narrative is just as important as Torah law.” That made me consider that we should learn from these horrible polygamy narratives, not make them the basis for a commandment. Judges isn’t part of the Torah, but thank you for the important lessons you highlighted from that sad concubine story.
The dreadful story of the Levite’s concubine from Judges 19 has distressed me from the first time I studied it in my Seminary class in the early 70’s. I wondered then and still wonder 50 years later why it is part of a book we consider to be scripture. Your search for truth about polygamy is so compelling to me. Like you, I come from old Utah Mormon stock, and a great great grandfather of mine was a bishop of a central Utah community who was arrested and imprisoned by federal authorities for his practice of polygamy. Many of the concepts I was taught about polygamy and other teachings and practices in the Church came from my mother and were stories of wives and daughters who suffered as a result of polygamy. Although I was born and raised in the Church, served a mission, attended BYU, and served most of my life in many callings including Bishop and Stake High Counsel, I am now estranged from the Church. I believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but I believe the Church has strayed in a wrong direction. I now consider myself a searcher for truth, and I feel my relationship with Heavenly Father is more honest now than at anytime in my life. Your honesty and sincerity is so transparent in your videos, and I admire your dedication to your search for truth and understanding. Finding you and your work has been a blessing to me.
Something I noticed about the story was that the law of moses about the touching of dead bodies and the sacrafice of a lamb when a community can't find a murder are the two things that makes me understand a little more on why this story is the way it is. I'm mostly talking about the ignoring of the law in this case and how the violation of the law ended up spreading across the whole nation of Isreal.
This is such remarkable research and the way you present this difficult subject is very concise.Today’s presentation was wonderful yet sad but still quite informative
The Prophet Joseph Smith never taught or lived polygamy, in fact he said that if a person receives a message or revelation that contradicts a previous revelation you may know it is not of God but of Satan, who may appear as an angel of light to deceive. The following quote from the Prophet Joseph Smith shows that D&C 132 was in direct contradiction of previous revelations in D&C 42:22-26 and D&C 49: 15-17 and former section 101 of 1835 (Three Witnesses to this Truth). According to Emma, the Prophets wife, Joseph never received D&C 132 revelation. So who wrote D&C 132? It was under Brigham Young's administration and contrary to God's eternal pattern.
The Prophet Joseph Smith said: “There have also been ministering angels in the church which were of Satan appearing as an angel of light:- A sister in the State of New York had a vision who said it was told her that if she would go to a certain place in the woods an angel would appear to her,- she went at the appointed time and saw a glorious personage descending arrayed in white . . . he commenced and told her to fear God and said that her husband was called to do great things, but that he must not go more than one hundred miles from home or he would not return; whereas God had called him to go to the ends of the earth; and he has since been more than one thousand miles from home, and is yet alive. Many true things were spoken by this personage and many things that were false.-How it may be asked was this known to be a bad angel? . . . by his contradicting a former revelation.” Times and Seasons 3 [April 1, 1842]: 747 Polygamy (D&C 132) is breaking several of the 10 Commandments of God and is diametrically opposed to Gods established pattern for godliness and holiness in a divine marriage relationship. "My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips" (Psalms 89: 34).
I think god always wanted all to partake of his gospel & priesthood blessings! It’s people like Brigham Young who weren’t ready to have this priesthood because he wasn’t ready for blacks to have the priesthood.
That concubine story in Judges 19 was the most tragic story I've heard in the Bible. I'm sure there's a special place in hell for abusers like that. Thank-you Michelle for your diligent work on this subject!
Interesting comment about how some argue for polygamy. Saying polygamy is OK because the twelve tribes came through it would be like saying adultery is OK because Christ came from the lineage of David and Bathsheba. Keep it up I enjoy your work.
But at that point it wasn't adultery anymore because Uriah was dead, thus Bathsheba was no longer bound to him. Not justifying David's actions in the situation. Just saying that Christ's lineage didn't come through the adulterous portion of David and Bathsheba's relationship.
But is prostitution wrong according to the scriptures? Or are we just reading that into the scriptures because of our preconceived cultural notion. This is a genuine question because it's something I've had a question on, but haven't had a chance to look into it. There are so many things people assume the scriptures say, but when we actually read the text it says something different.
@@MichaelEllisYT Michael, Uriah died after David found out Bathsheba was pregnant and David placed him at the front of the armies in order to eliminate Uriah. So it was adultery and murder to boot.
@@ericbyers235 Yes, that is correct. However AFTER Uriah was dead, it was no longer adultery because her husband was dead. Jesus' lineage didn't come through the adulterous actions because that child died. Again, not excusing David's actions. Just saying that adultery has a specific meaning and that word no longer applied after Uriah was dead.
Thank you so much for the effort you’re putting into making these videos! I loved watching you and your mom, by the way. She reminds me of my sweet grandmother, who passed away recently. So intelligent and kind. Your relationship is beautiful and inspiring. You make things so clear and have opened my mind to looking at this in a totally new way, and allowing some previously held detrimental ideas fall away. I just read this in a BYU studies article about President Kimball when he was trying to learn from God what he should do about the priesthood ban. It expresses how I feel about my beliefs on polygamy. Some of my long-held beliefs, feel like they are fading in importance. “Over time, through the many days in the temple and through the sleepless hours of the night, praying and turning over in his mind all the consequences, perplexities, and criticisms that a decision to extend priesthood would involve, Spencer gradually found "all those complications and concerns dwindling in significance." They did not disappear but seemed to decline in importance. In spite of his preconceptions and his allegiance to the past, a swelling certainty grew that a change in policy was what the Lord wanted. "There grew slowly a deep, abiding impression to go forward with the change.”” Thank you so much, and please keep going!
I already liked the video as soon as you mentioned you want to know what God says and it does not hinge on what Joseph said. We need to view all prophets in that way, asking ourselves, “Are what they’re saying truly from God?”
I love your channel, so please keep it coming! I do have a question though. Were you reading something about Spencer Kimball repenting before getting the revelation on the priesthood or was that your personal take? Could you please share a link if you have one?
I haven't found an authoritative source (at least one that all members would consider authoritative.) It is well understood to be the case among many black members of the church who were directly told that by President Kimball and other church leaders. I believe this includes Darius Gray who was, I believe, the main author of the church's gospel topics essay on race and the priesthood. Sistas in Zion have spoken about it multiple times and you can read blogs about it, but there is no official LDS source, since the church hasn't made an official statement about it. If you search online you should be able to find multiple accounts.
Thank you for this episode, and thank you for bringing light to the heart breaking experiences of concubines. I have some beautiful women in my family history who lived in polygamous families in the early church and I have a difficult time reading their stories.. One of my great great grandmothers entered a polygamous relationship at a young age. It appears she lived in a community that was very pro polygamy. According to her history, she was not allowed to eat with the family that she married into and was treated like a servant in the house..
Thank you for sharing. It is so hard to read the stories and to know what women and girls went through. I would love to hear more about her history. Is it published anywhere?
@@Heather-dv3ox hi Heather 😊, her name is Lydia Maria Fisk Stout. There are several accounts on family search written by different people. The accounts I've read are all pretty similar. I feel like I need to say that even though Lydia's experience was difficult, I really have a lot of compassion for all involved, including the Lydia's first husband and his first wife. Polygamy and poverty were enormous trials for them. My heart aches for all involved.
@@elizabethh9764 Thank you so much. I am right there with you! I have polygamy on both sides of my family going three generations back. One woman's husband brought a 2nd wife home without her consent. This younger wife ended up ruling the roost. The 1st wife ended up divorcing him, and then remarried a man as his second wife. It was a mess, and they did the best they could, but yes...it is heartbreaking for sure. 😘 Brigham and a few of the top leaders were the only ones that I know of where poverty was not a part of the narrative.
Decent podcast well-articulated and all-in-all I mostly agree with your position on polygamy in the Bible. From the looks of it there is no biblical doctrinal precedent being set by God and it is more of a social cultural practice. Interestingly, nowhere in modern-day canonical scripture, BOM, D&C or the Four Gospels does it speak or condemn lesbianism and or homosexuality.
@@MichelleBStone This is something I shared on a Facebook thread. Please feel free to tell me what you think and if you agree or disagree and Can Shed any more light on the subject. Thoughts I've shared on gay and lesbian relationships: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in my estimation, has the right to believe whatever they want, even if it's wrong. 🤔The right to be wrong is one of the hallmarks of freedom, and is in my estimation another irreplaceable fertilizer for free speech and growth? Should we have the right to be wrong when it produces actions and behaviors that hinder human moral progress by the power and force of the state? That's a tricky one and I don't quite know the entire answer. For the most part I don't think there is a sterile black or white answer for that question. I could be wrong and I'm more than willing to entertain rational discussion and kind-hearted investigation so we can discover truth. Something we can take peace in or at least have a moment of pause and reflection on the topic of gay marriage or lesbian marriage and relationships - nowhere in the four gospels where Jesus Christ teaches, nowhere in the Book of Mormon, nowhere in the pearl of great price and nowhere in the Doctrine & Covenants is there any condemnation or even simple mention of gay and lesbian relationships, marriage or living. The Old Testament and Pauline New Testament scriptures generally cited are actually in interpretive and translation meaning debate. I personally prefer the NASB though I don't think it solves all the problems of interpretation for culture norms of the time. From what I've read and I of course am no scholar, I'm Just your average knuckle-dragger going back to school. Some scriptures actually describe rape or attempted rape (Genesis 9:20-27, 19:1-11), cultic prostitution (Leviticus 18:22, 20:13), male prostitution and pederasty (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; 1 Timothy 1:10), and the Isis cult in Rome (Romans 1:26-27). If the biblical authors did assume homosexuality was evil, it may be best not to theologize off of their cultural assumptions, I theologize off of the texts in the canon. All that being said, there is zero mention about a lesbian lifestyle anywhere in scriptures. Questions to think about: 1. What are some of your thoughts on the scriptures in regards to what is metaphorical and what is literal to us today and not necessarily to Jews of the past? For instance, in the Book of Job did God and the devil really make an ego Vegas-style bet over another human beings life and kill his entire family? Noah and the global flood being the worst ecological, geological and species extinction event in Earth's history, Lot getting drunk and having sex with his daughters, etc... 2. What is the criteria you generally use to differentiate between metaphorical stories and or cultural norms of the time and "stuff" we don't do today like slavery or capital punishment for braking commandments and or biblical policy? 3. On this topic, which scriptures would you actually say address the issues and others we misinterpret through a "modern" Christian lens? I would agree that in most instances, marriage has traditionally been perceived and practiced as a union between a man and a woman. 4. As a thought experiment of sorts, if you were to think of practices we do today that are not biblical, within a positive religious context, what would they be? What are some negative ones? Note: As we discussed this topic, please do so with a kinder tone of voice. As if the person in whom you love and you may be responding to is gay (even if they're not, this is a worthy thought experiment and practice) or lesbian. Please imagine you are speaking out loud to them as they are sitting in front of you and me. Your mother is there also and even the Lord himself. Remember to try and read responses with a positive tone of voice and not add our own preconceived negative tone or perceived negative assumptions (even if it's meant to be negative) into the vocabulary of somebody else's response. No one is perfect in their understanding or responses. I believe most people are well-intended and are honestly wrong and not malicious in intent. I may also be honestly wrong.
@@IIIJT homosexuality cannot be of God because it simply doesn't work in the eternities. There is no eternal increase which is so important in the celestial world. Besides which, our bodies were clearly not designed to accommodate that type of sexual contact. Many other reasons it just doesn't work well and can't work eternally.
Here's a thought...isn't it possible that the plural wives of the early pioneers are in a very real sense themselves "concubines"? They were never legally married and there was no legal protection for them if/when those relationships ended, which I know many did? If that's so, maybe that's one reason that Jacob 2 specifically denounces wives and concubines...Mormon and Moroni, when they abridged the records we now have as the Book of Mormon included that specific story is because they saw it in our day? We are always told that the B of M was written for us in our day. As you say clearly in your podcast, nothing in the Book of Mormon (or anywhere else for that matter) gives even a hint that the Lord commanded or blessed polygamy as an eternal concept. Besides, it would mean that women don't actually get to enjoy any happiness even in heaven if they have to be married to a man who has many women. It would mean that this world is the only place where we women can hope for any real happiness..forget the next life. That's how many of us feel we must see it. It makes zero sense since God loves his daughters as much as his sons. Maybe the better question might be, are there any scriptures that tell us women are beneath men and are lesser and of dubious importance? I don't think so. Thanks for all you are doing Michelle. You have done so much work! I appreciate not having to do all the digging you have and you kindly include the links to where you got this information! Already I have had to defend what you say by printing off some of the links you included on your podcasts. :)
I have always that it was my ancestor, Briant Strigham, was the one driving the wagon of Brigham Young in 1947 when they arrived. Where did you read it was slaves? Now I need to find my family history to reread it. Where is this reference? Thanks
There are many articles and histories about it. Here is one sentence from just one of them (link below.) "These African American men made vital contributions during the pioneer trek, with Flake acting as Brigham Young’s personal wagon driver." www.nps.gov/articles/000/green-flake-the-mormon-pioneer-trail.htm
If you haven't watched it yet I highly recommend going to Ryan Fisher's "Nephite Explorer" RUclips site and watching his latest video " The Missing Piece". He has some very interesting info on this subject! He thoroughly researches and produces excellent thoughtful videos. Another great video, looking forward to more.
Can you provide the reference to the story about President Kimball praying about blacks and the priesthood? I would like to capture that in m notes. Thanks.
I'm not sure what would be the best source. It hasn't been officially documented by the church, which is why I don't claim it as fact. I know Tamu from Sistas in Zion has talked about it (I've talked to her about it in person as well) and I've read articles and blog posts about it over the years. But everyone needs to weigh it out for themselves.
It is still there, but it has been pretty dead for a few years. It is called Mormon Polygamy Discussion Group if you would like to join. It would be great for it to start back up again. :)
@@MichelleBStone I was thinking to do searches specific to things I'm reading to get more of a background, since you have done so much groundwork already!
Men and some women will be judged harshly in the next life on how they treated women and children in this life. The measure of a man is how they treat women and children.
Concubines included? Where are they? The sermon by Orson Pratt from a couple of episodes ago (I read and it is a slog) after explaining all the whoredoms, whore houses and adultery everywhere said "How is this to be prevented ? - for we have got a fallen nature to grapple with. It is to be prevented in the way the Lord devised in ancient times ; that is, by giving to his faithful servants a plurality of wives." So God gave in to the natural, fallen man who wants many wives and concubines a permissive commandment rather than giving him a commandment to put off the natural man? Impossible to believe that. Nailed it on slaves and slave mistresses. It was very typical of slave children, both born of masters or slave husbands, to be quickly sold or traded or removed away from their parents. Not so family friendly, just like in the Old Testament.
( Do Christians And Jews and "OTHER" non-Muslims go to Heaven? ) Quran 2:62 '' Those who believe (in the Quran) and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the Christians and the Sabians->ANYAllah< Is The Protector Of Monasteries, Churches, Synagogues And The Mosques ) Quran 22:40 [They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, " Our Lord is God " And were it not that God checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of God is much mentioned. And God will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, God is Powerful and Exalted in Might. Note: Why did Allah protected Churches and Synagogues if they worship false Allah ? ( Why Are There So Many Different Religions In The World ? ) Quran 5 48 ''...... If God wanted He could have made all of you a single nation.( ie single religion ) But He willed otherwise in order to test you in what He has given you (ie Scriptures) therefore try to excel one another in good deeds. Ultimately you all shall return to God then He will show you the truth of those matters in which you '' >DISPUTE verb < not noun like other religions Islam mean "submission" to God ( The above verse saying is that God will not accept a religion from the >MUSLIM< and the Non-Muslims but total "submission" to God ) Question: How Can Muslim And the Non-Muslim "submit" to the God? Answer: Be kind to other human beings and Do not lie, Do not steal, Do not cheat, Do not hurt others, Do not be prideful and Do the charity work. Note: If you obeyed all the ABOVE Allah-God's moral laws "YOU" submitted to God.( ie Islam mean "submission" to God ) The only people who will enter Paradise those who '' Submitted to God '' ( ie by good deeds ) God does NOT accept your religion of birth but only ''Your Total'' Submission to Him. ( God Allows Interfaith Marriages And Eat Food From the Christian And Jew And Vice Versa ) Quran 5:5 ''This day [all] good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture (ie Christian and Jew) is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And [lawful in marriage are] chaste women from among the believers (ie Muslim ) and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture (ie Christian and Jew) before you, when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking [secret] lovers. And whoever denies the faith - his work has become worthless and he in the Hereafter will be among the losers.'' Note: > Only < Islam allows interfaith marriages (>14 hundredsSame God< but They are >ALL Corrupt< more or less, some more than others from their original foundational teaching. The older religion are MORE corrupted than newer religion. Question to Muslim and Christian: Does God / Allah only answer your pray ? And God / Allah does not answer non Muslim / non Christian pray? Did Allah '' Canceled '' all other religions Judaism and Christianity? Quran 5:48 '' And We have revealed to you [O Muhammad] the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture ( ie New and old Testament ) and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. >>>TO EACH OF YOU WE PRESCRIBED A LAW AND A METHODone nation>differ qualified < for to enter Paradise ) On the day of judgement God will ''NOT'' judge humanity bases on Sunni Muslim sect VS Shia Muslim sect ''NOR'' by Muslim VS non-Muslim >but< Doer of Goods VS Doer of Evils. '' YOUR " birth in the Muslim's family is NOT a > qualification < for to enter the Paradise. '' YOUR " religion / sect / foot long beard is NOT a > qualification < for to enter the Paradise. The > qualification < to enter Paradise is > Faith in God and Good Work
If someone were quoting to you the Bible or the Book of Mormon or something from The Vedas etc they would hold very little 'spiritual' or feelings-based value and weight. These scriptures are powerful to each individual cultural group that has imbued feelings and meaning towards them. Though, if anyone of them were to give pages of versus without significant context to you or I, it would kind of be irrelevant. That doesn't mean those personal scriptures don't hold immense spiritual value for those Unique Individuals. I appreciate this is powerful for you and the personal feelings you have that make you feel Allah is personally telling you they are true - these are the same personal feelings that billions of other people have about their particular sacred texts.
Have you ever considered the idea that Jesus was not the fulfillment of the Israelite prophecies but rather that of the Zoroastrians? In other words, the OT is garbage and has nothing to do with Jesus or his mission?
Okay, wow! That would send me down a whole new path. I think there were problems with the OT prophesies. Jesus himself showed that he isn't the "son of David," plus that doesn't make any sense of he is the son of God. So I'm intrigued, but it's easy over my head.
@@MichelleBStone the wise men who came to visit Jesus as a child were actually Magi, who were Zoroastrian priests seeking the birth of the Saoshyant, who was the spiritual messiah, for example. The Israelite messiah was essentially a religious warlord who would destroy all the enemies of the Jews, which is very different from what Jesus was. One of the Zoroastrian prophecies was that the Saoshyant will die by being hung on a tree and then he'll be resurrected and will raise the dead alongside him. The Israelites became really obsessed with Zoroastrian prophecies after Cyrus the Great (a Persian/Zoroastrian) saved them from the Babylonians. This was also when the idea of "the devil" entered into Israelite theology, since it was the Zoroastrians who were the originators of the concept of Satan, though they called him Angra Mainyu. The Israelites began to invent their own concepts of Angra Mainyu (the devil), but they didn't settle on the name Satan for a long time, so he originally had many names and titles, one of which was Belial. The concept of Arc Angels comes from Zoroastrian, the resurrection, the idea of the spirit world being separated into two different places by a giant pit (which is in the book of Luke) comes from Zoroastrianism, and even the concept of The Light of Christ comes from it as well (known as The Good Mind)
@@MichelleBStone it's also one of the oldest religions on the planet, if that makes any difference. Hinduism and Zoroastrianism are the oldest ones, as well as the Sumerians. The Israelites are actually descended from the Canaanites, who themselves originated from the Sumerians in mesopotamia. Essentially, the Israelites are descended from pagan polytheistic cultures, which is also where their culture of concubines and blood sacrifices came from. This is why all the OT genesis myths can be found in polytheistic faiths of that time, and it's why the bible teaches us that mankind was made out of clay (the dust of the earth). This is also why the name of God changes many times in the OT. It starts out as Elohim (which is a plural word meaning "gods", which indicates the Israelites were originally polytheistic), then changes to El Elyon (which is an echo to the Canaanite deity named El, who was a god of craftsmanship and the chief of their pantheon), and then turns into Yahweh (which was much more based on the Zoroastrian version of God). Yahweh originally had a wife named Asherah, though she was tossed out around the time when Elijah was fighting with the priests of Baal. The temple of Solomon originally had two shrines, one dedicated to Yahweh, and the other dedicated to "His Asherah", who was a pagan wife deity from the Canaanite faith. However, Zoroastrianism has always been around, has ALWAYS preached the doctrines that Christ preached, and it's where all the prophecies that Hesus fulfilled came from. The religion was started by a man who sought the true path of God due to him seeing the whoredoms and the sacrifices of all these other religions. It was then that he received a vision from Ahura Mazda, the god that has existed from everlasting to everlasting, and who preached peace and kindness, rather than obedience/dominance/sacrifices. Anyway, I feel like that's a good starting point. I myself am agnostic but I figured this info might be useful to you 🙏
@@MichelleBStone honestly I am finding your thoughts and perspective to be incredibly comforting and enlightening. Please continue, at least for a time 🙏
I have read your many comments with much interest, and I confess frustration. It is very strange how you intentionally miss the entire point of the story and the podcast and only look for very small, irrelevant points to nit pick and contradict -- usually setting up a straw man of what I claim, and then being overly literalistic in a very strange way. I don't think it is good for a woman to not be able to talk to her husband without being invited by him, whenever he wants her, or risk death. That's not a good arrangement. I would hope you can agree with that. And to another of your comments here, if a woman is taken by the king, and then cloistered in the King's harem for the rest of her life, unable to live her own life freely, unable to marry and have children, but held captive according to his whims and desires, she is not her own person. She is owned -- her existence is not her own, but is completely dependent on the whims of her master. Please tell me what you would call this situation. People continually bring up these OT stories to claim polygamy is God's way. I argue that these OT cultures were extremely regressive -- not anything we would want to live in -- should not be used as examples for us today. People ignore all the very obvious extremely negative elements of these cultures in order to claim that somehow polygamy (one of the very negative elements of these cultures) is not only Godly, but an essential part of God's law that must be lived and will be the order of Zion and Heaven. If you want to nit pick whether the scriptures acknowledge that these rejected concubines are basically slaves, you are free to do so, but I have a hard time seeing what you are hoping to prove or accomplish. That is true of the vast majority of your other comments as well. Can you see and address the larger issues?
I agree that 132 is a problem and is probably not from God. However, even without it I think the Biblical record is clear that polygyny is allowed. I disagree with many Mormon polygamists that polygamy is a "higher law" l. I think that's just a reaction to the cultural condemnation of the practice. Additionally, I think the Book of Mormon is incorrect in the places where it contradicts the Bible by condemning polygamy. Genesis 16:9 is the closest we have to God commanding polygamy. Here He commands Hagar to return to her polygamous familial arrangement. If He did not approve of polygamy He would not have commanded her to return to a sinful lifestyle. So basically He is saying "Thou shalt live polygamy" to Hagar. In Exodus 21:10 we see the commandments requiring a man to care for his first wife if he married another. Deuteronomy 17:16-17 does indeed command against multiplying wives, but it also condemns multiplying horses, gold, and silver. Yet, it would be illogical to conclude that this meant the king could only have one horse, and one piece of gold and silver. Not to mention it only applies to the king. In Deuteronomy 21:15 we find inheritance laws for when a man has more than one wife. Here again polygamy is being regulated not condemned. In Deuteronomy 25:5 we learn of Leverite marraige. This is the second closest we get to a "thou shalt practice polygamy" commandmebt. While not explicitly polygamous, the marital status of a man is irrelevant when it comes to Levirate marriage. A man is not exempt from this even if he is already married. As you mentioned in 2 Samuel 12:7-8 God says He gave David his wives. But He also says He would have given him more. God would not have made that statement if polygamy was sinful. In 1 Corinthians 7:10-11 men and women are given different commandments for when a wife departs from her husband. The wife is commanded to remain unmarried or reconcile with her husband. The husband is not commanded to remain unmarried instead he is only commanded not to divorce the wife that has departed. Thus it would be possible for a man to marry a second wife while his first was departed and then if the first is reconciled he would have two wives. Concerning concubines, while I think it's easy to jump to the extreme of sexual slavery; the word "concubine" is a broad term that doesn't ONLY mean sexual slavery. It can also be used to apply to many other forms or relationship that could be considered a lesser form of marriage. I'm sure we could find or design many different types of polygamous systems where the term concubine could apply and NOT refer to slavery.
You make the point that God “allows” for polygyny in the Biblical record, but the fact that something exists cannot be used as evidence of God’s approval. I believe Michelle’s thesis that polygyny does not originate from and is not inspired by God is extremely strong. The scriptures you cite here acknowledge the existence of polygyny, and seem to command fair treatment within that reality. The same can be said for scriptures which explain how slaves should be treated in various circumstances. But does slavery originate with God? Or is it part of eternity? I have never heard any sincerely believing Christian claim it did and is. Nathan’s statement to King David is one I’ve heard as clearly showing polygyny’s divine approval. She references that here and I agree it does not make sense doctrinally.
Polygamy = the traditions of men that see women as property vs. being daughters of God who have equal rights as men & have the right to be cherished & treated with respect!
Not necessarily
Dear sister, you bring so much clarity to this subject. I love and appreciate you so much. Helping to bring so much common sense and reason to this topic. I feel like God has given you a gift to zero in on the confusion and conflict and work through it with reasonable facts and probable things that happened that has brought us to this point. It's time to clean things up. I love you for this work you are doing.
I don't even know how to respond to such a profoundly meaningful comment. You are encouraging me to keep going. It means the world to me. Thank you with all of my heart ❤
Amen!
My shelf broke one year ago. I was a garment wearing, tithe paying, church and temple attending Mormon.
I converted to the church at about 17. I have always struggled with the polygamy aspect and the racism that still exists in the church.
I’ve often asked myself why God lives his daughters so very little and his sons so much, that he would cause a wife to become a sex toy to her husband among his other innumerable wives and concubines.
Why would he condemn her to eternal hell, and only give access to him (God) from her husband?
Why is a woman’s eternal gift to become invisible and forbidden to even have her children speak her name?
Why do men in the church not only accept this as fact, but truly believe that women are meant only to have sex with and bear children, that women are irrelevant and without feelings?
Men defend this practice to their dying breath. Why?
I stopped attending church a year ago. I tried to go back about 6 months ago and their first hymn was “Praise to the Man”.
I was physically I’ll. I could not sing those words and I sat there and cried so hard because the one time I try to reach out to the church, I get slapped in the face with praise of a man who set polygamy up to be worshipped and women to be used and abused. I never returned.
I was a victim of child of child molestation from age 3 to age 9. I was raped at age 15 by an adult male stranger in Provo, Utah.
God does not hear us when we cry out to him for deliverance. He does not care about his daughters.
I love Jesus, because he cared about women and their struggles. I love Jesus because he does not honor men over women. All are loved by him.
I’m so confused and hurt. I’m crying as I post this.
I have been disowned by family over leaving the church. I have had such hatred and lies spewed about me for leaving the church.
My FIL was a bishop 3 times and taught the gospel of polygamy for all eternity. He says it’s a woman’s place yo accept it and not ask questions. He doesn’t speak to me now. It’s really a blessing. I called him a Pharisee for his teachings. I’m better off without him and his whole family in my life.
I’m living alone in an apartment, work and enjoy my children and grandchildren. That is my life.
I’m enjoying your videos. If I EVER return to church, it will be because of women like you, who speak up and aren’t afraid of the truth.
May the Lord bless you in your future endeavors.
You're story is heart breaking, Debbi. I'm amazed at your faith through such difficult and dark times.
My journey hasn't been the same as yours, but I can very well relate to those feelings you've had about Joseph Smith. I used to be filled with deep disgust, anger and sorrow.
In recent months, however, I've studied Joseph Smith and polygamy and have come to a different conclusion about him. After reading his statements that completely condemn any form of adultery, plural marriage, polygamy or whatever name it can be called, I was completely surprised and humbled, and even filled with respect for the man.
I believe that God truly loves his sons and daughters, but because of what we've been taught about women and our heavenly Mother --referring to some of the things you mentioned in your post--it's sometimes difficult to break out of those (what I consider to be) false beliefs. And it sometimes feels like the heavens are silent.
However, I'm seeing an interesting trend within the women in my life. I think the women of the church, and perhaps women everywhere are starting to find the divine feminine within them. I believe that the Divine Mother is within all of us and is beginning to break the bands that many women have been bound by.
I've even heard some people say (even men in the church) that before the earth will be ready Christ's second coming, women will need to be given back their proper place in God's kingdom.
I can't help but feel strongly that we need women such as YOU to help us break from the false beliefs and embrace the truth about our Heavenly Mother and our divine womanhood.
Thank you for sharing your experiences. You are in my heart and thoughts, Debbi.
As a man who was raised in the church but no longer believes, the reason we accepted this stuff is because we've been straight up brainwashed to accept it. Men are brainwashed to be obedient and controlling and to be like little soldiers for the church. Almost none of the men really sit down and think about it, they just hear whitewashed versions of polygamy and so think it isn't a big deal. Once the info is laid before them entirely bare, not a lot of men can handle it, which is why they oftentimes will repeatedly regurgitate the whitewashed info they'd been fed their whole lives (it's an attempt to stop themselves from thinking). I don't know a lot of men who are excited for this kind of practice, it's more that they don't understand it. That's my two cents about modern men in the church
God does love His daughters as much as His sons! It's so sad that our culture sometimes give the impression that He doesn't... life is interesting, isn't it? We are all on our own individual paths back to God, including your FIL... trust God. HEAR HIM. Keep learning and growing. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Love you!!
You don’t have to return to the culture and the people in order to follow Christ. The Book of Mormon is true, and Christ loves you. Serve Christ in the way you feel is right for you and don’t associate with people who overtly pervert the ways of Christ and don’t feel ashamed for it. Pray for strength to heal and to humble your enemies. Hold onto your testimony and the healing power of Jesus Christ’s atonement and the evil doings of men will be insignificant to you. The power of the Holy Spirit is within you and you will be able to discern the truth of all things through faith in Christ.
You are loved.
Years ago when I was struggling with the concept of eternal plural marriage, you and others weren’t available to help me question 132 and I wasn’t reading enough scriptures to figure it out!! One thing that did bring me comfort was hearing Jewish scholar Dennis Prager say, “Torah narrative is just as important as Torah law.” That made me consider that we should learn from these horrible polygamy narratives, not make them the basis for a commandment. Judges isn’t part of the Torah, but thank you for the important lessons you highlighted from that sad concubine story.
The dreadful story of the Levite’s concubine from Judges 19 has distressed me from the first time I studied it in my Seminary class in the early 70’s. I wondered then and still wonder 50 years later why it is part of a book we consider to be scripture.
Your search for truth about polygamy is so compelling to me. Like you, I come from old Utah Mormon stock, and a great great grandfather of mine was a bishop of a central Utah community who was arrested and imprisoned by federal authorities for his practice of polygamy. Many of the concepts I was taught about polygamy and other teachings and practices in the Church came from my mother and were stories of wives and daughters who suffered as a result of polygamy.
Although I was born and raised in the Church, served a mission, attended BYU, and served most of my life in many callings including Bishop and Stake High Counsel, I am now estranged from the Church.
I believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ, but I believe the Church has strayed in a wrong direction.
I now consider myself a searcher for truth, and I feel my relationship with Heavenly Father is more honest now than at anytime in my life.
Your honesty and sincerity is so transparent in your videos, and I admire your dedication to your search for truth and understanding. Finding you and your work has been a blessing to me.
Something I noticed about the story was that the law of moses about the touching of dead bodies and the sacrafice of a lamb when a community can't find a murder are the two things that makes me understand a little more on why this story is the way it is. I'm mostly talking about the ignoring of the law in this case and how the violation of the law ended up spreading across the whole nation of Isreal.
You are doing a great service with these videos! Keep up the great work!
This is such remarkable research and the way you present this difficult subject is very concise.Today’s presentation was wonderful yet sad but still quite informative
The Prophet Joseph Smith never taught or lived polygamy, in fact he said that if a person receives a message or revelation that contradicts a previous revelation you may know it is not of God but of Satan, who may appear as an angel of light to deceive. The following quote from the Prophet Joseph Smith shows that D&C 132 was in direct contradiction of previous revelations in D&C 42:22-26 and D&C 49: 15-17 and former section 101 of 1835 (Three Witnesses to this Truth). According to Emma, the Prophets wife, Joseph never received D&C 132 revelation. So who wrote D&C 132? It was under Brigham Young's administration and contrary to God's eternal pattern.
The Prophet Joseph Smith said:
“There have also been ministering angels in the church which were of Satan appearing as an angel of light:- A sister in the State of New York had a vision who said it was told her that if she would go to a certain place in the woods an angel would appear to her,- she went at the appointed time and saw a glorious personage descending arrayed in white . . . he commenced and told her to fear God and said that her husband was called to do great things, but that he must not go more than one hundred miles from home or he would not return; whereas God had called him to go to the ends of the earth; and he has since been more than one thousand miles from home, and is yet alive. Many true things were spoken by this personage and many things that were false.-How it may be asked was this known to be a bad angel? . . . by his contradicting a former revelation.” Times and Seasons 3 [April 1, 1842]: 747
Polygamy (D&C 132) is breaking several of the 10 Commandments of God and is diametrically opposed to Gods established pattern for godliness and holiness in a divine marriage relationship. "My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips" (Psalms 89: 34).
Thank you for sharing, your time and research. I appreciate the way you encourage us to think and pray for ourselves.
I love your example of President Kimball asking the right question regarding blacks and the priesthood.
I think god always wanted all to partake of his gospel & priesthood blessings! It’s people like Brigham Young who weren’t ready to have this priesthood because he wasn’t ready for blacks to have the priesthood.
That concubine story in Judges 19 was the most tragic story I've heard in the Bible. I'm sure there's a special place in hell for abusers like that. Thank-you Michelle for your diligent work on this subject!
Love your enlightening messages! Keep it coming!
Interesting comment about how some argue for polygamy. Saying polygamy is OK because the twelve tribes came through it would be like saying adultery is OK because Christ came from the lineage of David and Bathsheba. Keep it up I enjoy your work.
Great point! We could also say prostitution because of Judah and Tamar. It could go on and on and on.
But at that point it wasn't adultery anymore because Uriah was dead, thus Bathsheba was no longer bound to him. Not justifying David's actions in the situation. Just saying that Christ's lineage didn't come through the adulterous portion of David and Bathsheba's relationship.
But is prostitution wrong according to the scriptures? Or are we just reading that into the scriptures because of our preconceived cultural notion. This is a genuine question because it's something I've had a question on, but haven't had a chance to look into it. There are so many things people assume the scriptures say, but when we actually read the text it says something different.
@@MichaelEllisYT Michael, Uriah died after David found out Bathsheba was pregnant and David placed him at the front of the armies in order to eliminate Uriah. So it was adultery and murder to boot.
@@ericbyers235 Yes, that is correct. However AFTER Uriah was dead, it was no longer adultery because her husband was dead. Jesus' lineage didn't come through the adulterous actions because that child died. Again, not excusing David's actions. Just saying that adultery has a specific meaning and that word no longer applied after Uriah was dead.
Such a great episode! So well researched and presented! I wish this sort of critical thinking was more encouraged in the church.
It is.... but few choose to do the hard work and most are lazy learners
Thank you for sharing your wisdom this series has been very helpful. I look forward to more!
Thank you so much for the effort you’re putting into making these videos! I loved watching you and your mom, by the way. She reminds me of my sweet grandmother, who passed away recently. So intelligent and kind. Your relationship is beautiful and inspiring.
You make things so clear and have opened my mind to looking at this in a totally new way, and allowing some previously held detrimental ideas fall away.
I just read this in a BYU studies article about President Kimball when he was trying to learn from God what he should do about the priesthood ban. It expresses how I feel about my beliefs on polygamy.
Some of my long-held beliefs, feel like they are fading in importance.
“Over time, through the many days in the temple and through the sleepless hours of the night, praying and turning over in his mind all the consequences, perplexities, and criticisms that a decision to extend priesthood would involve, Spencer gradually found "all those complications and concerns dwindling in significance." They did not disappear but seemed to decline in importance. In spite of his preconceptions and his allegiance to the past, a swelling certainty grew that a change in policy was what the Lord wanted. "There grew slowly a deep, abiding impression to go forward with the change.””
Thank you so much, and please keep going!
I already liked the video as soon as you mentioned you want to know what God says and it does not hinge on what Joseph said. We need to view all prophets in that way, asking ourselves, “Are what they’re saying truly from God?”
I love your channel, so please keep it coming! I do have a question though. Were you reading something about Spencer Kimball repenting before getting the revelation on the priesthood or was that your personal take? Could you please share a link if you have one?
I haven't found an authoritative source (at least one that all members would consider authoritative.) It is well understood to be the case among many black members of the church who were directly told that by President Kimball and other church leaders. I believe this includes Darius Gray who was, I believe, the main author of the church's gospel topics essay on race and the priesthood. Sistas in Zion have spoken about it multiple times and you can read blogs about it, but there is no official LDS source, since the church hasn't made an official statement about it. If you search online you should be able to find multiple accounts.
Oh, and I forgot to say thank you!
Thank you for this episode, and thank you for bringing light to the heart breaking experiences of concubines. I have some beautiful women in my family history who lived in polygamous families in the early church and I have a difficult time reading their stories.. One of my great great grandmothers entered a polygamous relationship at a young age. It appears she lived in a community that was very pro polygamy. According to her history, she was not allowed to eat with the family that she married into and was treated like a servant in the house..
Thank you for sharing. It is so hard to read the stories and to know what women and girls went through. I would love to hear more about her history. Is it published anywhere?
@@MichelleBStone I can't seem to attach the link to her history here.. I found her story on family search.
@@elizabethh9764 What is the name of your ancestor? I would love to read her story ❤😊
@@Heather-dv3ox hi Heather 😊, her name is Lydia Maria Fisk Stout. There are several accounts on family search written by different people. The accounts I've read are all pretty similar.
I feel like I need to say that even though Lydia's experience was difficult, I really have a lot of compassion for all involved, including the Lydia's first husband and his first wife. Polygamy and poverty were enormous trials for them. My heart aches for all involved.
@@elizabethh9764 Thank you so much. I am right there with you! I have polygamy on both sides of my family going three generations back. One woman's husband brought a 2nd wife home without her consent. This younger wife ended up ruling the roost. The 1st wife ended up divorcing him, and then remarried a man as his second wife. It was a mess, and they did the best they could, but yes...it is heartbreaking for sure. 😘 Brigham and a few of the top leaders were the only ones that I know of where poverty was not a part of the narrative.
Decent podcast well-articulated and all-in-all I mostly agree with your position on polygamy in the Bible. From the looks of it there is no biblical doctrinal precedent being set by God and it is more of a social cultural practice.
Interestingly, nowhere in modern-day canonical scripture, BOM, D&C or the Four Gospels does it speak or condemn lesbianism and or homosexuality.
Very good point. That is a very different topic 😉
@@MichelleBStone
This is something I shared on a Facebook thread. Please feel free to tell me what you think and if you agree or disagree and Can Shed any more light on the subject.
Thoughts I've shared on gay and lesbian relationships:
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in my estimation, has the right to believe whatever they want, even if it's wrong. 🤔The right to be wrong is one of the hallmarks of freedom, and is in my estimation another irreplaceable fertilizer for free speech and growth? Should we have the right to be wrong when it produces actions and behaviors that hinder human moral progress by the power and force of the state? That's a tricky one and I don't quite know the entire answer. For the most part I don't think there is a sterile black or white answer for that question. I could be wrong and I'm more than willing to entertain rational discussion and kind-hearted investigation so we can discover truth.
Something we can take peace in or at least have a moment of pause and reflection on the topic of gay marriage or lesbian marriage and relationships - nowhere in the four gospels where Jesus Christ teaches, nowhere in the Book of Mormon, nowhere in the pearl of great price and nowhere in the Doctrine & Covenants is there any condemnation or even simple mention of gay and lesbian relationships, marriage or living. The Old Testament and Pauline New Testament scriptures generally cited are actually in interpretive and translation meaning debate. I personally prefer the NASB though I don't think it solves all the problems of interpretation for culture norms of the time. From what I've read and I of course am no scholar, I'm Just your average knuckle-dragger going back to school. Some scriptures actually describe rape or attempted rape (Genesis 9:20-27, 19:1-11), cultic prostitution (Leviticus 18:22, 20:13), male prostitution and pederasty (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; 1 Timothy 1:10), and the Isis cult in Rome (Romans 1:26-27). If the biblical authors did assume homosexuality was evil, it may be best not to theologize off of their cultural assumptions, I theologize off of the texts in the canon. All that being said, there is zero mention about a lesbian lifestyle anywhere in scriptures.
Questions to think about:
1. What are some of your thoughts on the scriptures in regards to what is metaphorical and what is literal to us today and not necessarily to Jews of the past? For instance, in the Book of Job did God and the devil really make an ego Vegas-style bet over another human beings life and kill his entire family? Noah and the global flood being the worst ecological, geological and species extinction event in Earth's history, Lot getting drunk and having sex with his daughters, etc...
2. What is the criteria you generally use to differentiate between metaphorical stories and or cultural norms of the time and "stuff" we don't do today like slavery or capital punishment for braking commandments and or biblical policy?
3. On this topic, which scriptures would you actually say address the issues and others we misinterpret through a "modern" Christian lens? I would agree that in most instances, marriage has traditionally been perceived and practiced as a union between a man and a woman.
4. As a thought experiment of sorts, if you were to think of practices we do today that are not biblical, within a positive religious context, what would they be? What are some negative ones?
Note: As we discussed this topic, please do so with a kinder tone of voice. As if the person in whom you love and you may be responding to is gay (even if they're not, this is a worthy thought experiment and practice) or lesbian. Please imagine you are speaking out loud to them as they are sitting in front of you and me. Your mother is there also and even the Lord himself. Remember to try and read responses with a positive tone of voice and not add our own preconceived negative tone or perceived negative assumptions (even if it's meant to be negative) into the vocabulary of somebody else's response.
No one is perfect in their understanding or responses. I believe most people are well-intended and are honestly wrong and not malicious in intent. I may also be honestly wrong.
@@IIIJT homosexuality cannot be of God because it simply doesn't work in the eternities. There is no eternal increase which is so important in the celestial world. Besides which, our bodies were clearly not designed to accommodate that type of sexual contact. Many other reasons it just doesn't work well and can't work eternally.
Here's a thought...isn't it possible that the plural wives of the early pioneers are in a very real sense themselves "concubines"? They were never legally married and there was no legal protection for them if/when those relationships ended, which I know many did? If that's so, maybe that's one reason that Jacob 2 specifically denounces wives and concubines...Mormon and Moroni, when they abridged the records we now have as the Book of Mormon included that specific story is because they saw it in our day? We are always told that the B of M was written for us in our day. As you say clearly in your podcast, nothing in the Book of Mormon (or anywhere else for that matter) gives even a hint that the Lord commanded or blessed polygamy as an eternal concept. Besides, it would mean that women don't actually get to enjoy any happiness even in heaven if they have to be married to a man who has many women. It would mean that this world is the only place where we women can hope for any real happiness..forget the next life. That's how many of us feel we must see it. It makes zero sense since God loves his daughters as much as his sons. Maybe the better question might be, are there any scriptures that tell us women are beneath men and are lesser and of dubious importance? I don't think so. Thanks for all you are doing Michelle. You have done so much work! I appreciate not having to do all the digging you have and you kindly include the links to where you got this information! Already I have had to defend what you say by printing off some of the links you included on your podcasts. :)
I have always that it was my ancestor, Briant Strigham, was the one driving the wagon of Brigham Young in 1947 when they arrived. Where did you read it was slaves? Now I need to find my family history to reread it. Where is this reference? Thanks
There are many articles and histories about it. Here is one sentence from just one of them (link below.) "These African American men made vital contributions during the pioneer trek, with Flake acting as Brigham Young’s personal wagon driver."
www.nps.gov/articles/000/green-flake-the-mormon-pioneer-trail.htm
Here is an original source: archive.org/details/sltrib1897
If you haven't watched it yet I highly recommend going to Ryan Fisher's "Nephite Explorer" RUclips site and watching his latest video " The Missing Piece". He has some very interesting info on this subject! He thoroughly researches and produces excellent thoughtful videos. Another great video, looking forward to more.
Thank you. I will check it out.
Can you provide the reference to the story about President Kimball praying about blacks and the priesthood? I would like to capture that in m notes. Thanks.
I'm not sure what would be the best source. It hasn't been officially documented by the church, which is why I don't claim it as fact. I know Tamu from Sistas in Zion has talked about it (I've talked to her about it in person as well) and I've read articles and blog posts about it over the years. But everyone needs to weigh it out for themselves.
Is your FB discussion group still going? I’d like to join if so
It is still there, but it has been pretty dead for a few years. It is called Mormon Polygamy Discussion Group if you would like to join. It would be great for it to start back up again. :)
@@MichelleBStone I was thinking to do searches specific to things I'm reading to get more of a background, since you have done so much groundwork already!
Men and some women will be judged harshly in the next life on how they treated women and children in this life. The measure of a man is how they treat women and children.
Where is the transcript located to William Clayton's affidavit?
Good comes from God..not evil
Concubines included? Where are they? The sermon by Orson Pratt from a couple of episodes ago (I read and it is a slog) after explaining all the whoredoms, whore houses and adultery everywhere said "How is this to be prevented ? - for we have got a fallen nature to grapple with. It is to be prevented in the way the Lord devised in ancient times ; that is, by giving to his faithful servants a plurality of wives." So God gave in to the natural, fallen man who wants many wives and concubines a permissive commandment rather than giving him a commandment to put off the natural man? Impossible to believe that. Nailed it on slaves and slave mistresses. It was very typical of slave children, both born of masters or slave husbands, to be quickly sold or traded or removed away from their parents. Not so family friendly, just like in the Old Testament.
Because of Genesis 22: 2, I think the story of Ishmael is a fabrication.
( Do Christians And Jews and "OTHER" non-Muslims go to Heaven? )
Quran 2:62
'' Those who believe (in the Quran) and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures) and the Christians and the Sabians->ANYAllah< Is The Protector Of Monasteries, Churches, Synagogues And The Mosques )
Quran 22:40
[They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, " Our Lord is God " And were it not that God checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of God is much mentioned. And God will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, God is Powerful and Exalted in Might.
Note: Why did Allah protected Churches and Synagogues if they worship false Allah ?
( Why Are There So Many Different Religions In The World ? )
Quran 5 48
''...... If God wanted He could have made all of you a single nation.( ie single religion ) But He willed otherwise in order to test you in what He has given you (ie Scriptures) therefore try to excel one another in good deeds. Ultimately you all shall return to God then He will show you the truth of those matters in which you '' >DISPUTE verb < not noun like other religions
Islam mean "submission" to God
( The above verse saying is that God will not accept a religion from the >MUSLIM< and the Non-Muslims but total "submission" to God )
Question: How Can Muslim And the Non-Muslim "submit" to the God?
Answer: Be kind to other human beings and Do not lie, Do not steal, Do not cheat, Do not hurt others, Do not be prideful and Do the charity work.
Note: If you obeyed all the ABOVE Allah-God's moral laws "YOU" submitted to God.( ie Islam mean "submission" to God )
The only people who will enter Paradise those who '' Submitted to God '' ( ie by good deeds )
God does NOT accept your religion of birth but only ''Your Total'' Submission to Him.
( God Allows Interfaith Marriages And Eat Food From the Christian And Jew And Vice Versa )
Quran 5:5
''This day [all] good foods have been made lawful, and the food of those who were given the Scripture (ie Christian and Jew) is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them. And [lawful in marriage are] chaste women from among the believers (ie Muslim ) and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture (ie Christian and Jew) before you, when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking [secret] lovers. And whoever denies the faith - his work has become worthless and he in the Hereafter will be among the losers.''
Note: > Only < Islam allows interfaith marriages (>14 hundredsSame God< but They are >ALL Corrupt< more or less, some more than others from their original foundational teaching. The older religion are MORE corrupted than newer religion.
Question to Muslim and Christian:
Does God / Allah only answer your pray ?
And God / Allah does not answer non Muslim / non Christian pray?
Did Allah '' Canceled '' all other religions Judaism and Christianity?
Quran 5:48
'' And We have revealed to you [O Muhammad] the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture ( ie New and old Testament ) and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. >>>TO EACH OF YOU WE PRESCRIBED A LAW AND A METHODone nation>differ qualified < for to enter Paradise )
On the day of judgement God will ''NOT'' judge humanity bases on Sunni Muslim sect VS Shia Muslim sect ''NOR'' by Muslim VS non-Muslim >but< Doer of Goods VS Doer of Evils.
'' YOUR " birth in the Muslim's family is NOT a > qualification < for to enter the Paradise.
'' YOUR " religion / sect / foot long beard is NOT a > qualification < for to enter the Paradise.
The > qualification < to enter Paradise is > Faith in God and Good Work
You've made this comment before. I'm not sure this applies to anyone here. I'm not Muslim.
If someone were quoting to you the Bible or the Book of Mormon or something from The Vedas etc they would hold very little 'spiritual' or feelings-based value and weight. These scriptures are powerful to each individual cultural group that has imbued feelings and meaning towards them. Though, if anyone of them were to give pages of versus without significant context to you or I, it would kind of be irrelevant. That doesn't mean those personal scriptures don't hold immense spiritual value for those Unique Individuals. I appreciate this is powerful for you and the personal feelings you have that make you feel Allah is personally telling you they are true - these are the same personal feelings that billions of other people have about their particular sacred texts.
Again? Not really the right platform ...
Have you ever considered the idea that Jesus was not the fulfillment of the Israelite prophecies but rather that of the Zoroastrians? In other words, the OT is garbage and has nothing to do with Jesus or his mission?
Okay, wow! That would send me down a whole new path. I think there were problems with the OT prophesies. Jesus himself showed that he isn't the "son of David," plus that doesn't make any sense of he is the son of God. So I'm intrigued, but it's easy over my head.
@@MichelleBStone the wise men who came to visit Jesus as a child were actually Magi, who were Zoroastrian priests seeking the birth of the Saoshyant, who was the spiritual messiah, for example. The Israelite messiah was essentially a religious warlord who would destroy all the enemies of the Jews, which is very different from what Jesus was. One of the Zoroastrian prophecies was that the Saoshyant will die by being hung on a tree and then he'll be resurrected and will raise the dead alongside him.
The Israelites became really obsessed with Zoroastrian prophecies after Cyrus the Great (a Persian/Zoroastrian) saved them from the Babylonians. This was also when the idea of "the devil" entered into Israelite theology, since it was the Zoroastrians who were the originators of the concept of Satan, though they called him Angra Mainyu. The Israelites began to invent their own concepts of Angra Mainyu (the devil), but they didn't settle on the name Satan for a long time, so he originally had many names and titles, one of which was Belial. The concept of Arc Angels comes from Zoroastrian, the resurrection, the idea of the spirit world being separated into two different places by a giant pit (which is in the book of Luke) comes from Zoroastrianism, and even the concept of The Light of Christ comes from it as well (known as The Good Mind)
@@MichelleBStone it's also one of the oldest religions on the planet, if that makes any difference. Hinduism and Zoroastrianism are the oldest ones, as well as the Sumerians. The Israelites are actually descended from the Canaanites, who themselves originated from the Sumerians in mesopotamia. Essentially, the Israelites are descended from pagan polytheistic cultures, which is also where their culture of concubines and blood sacrifices came from. This is why all the OT genesis myths can be found in polytheistic faiths of that time, and it's why the bible teaches us that mankind was made out of clay (the dust of the earth). This is also why the name of God changes many times in the OT. It starts out as Elohim (which is a plural word meaning "gods", which indicates the Israelites were originally polytheistic), then changes to El Elyon (which is an echo to the Canaanite deity named El, who was a god of craftsmanship and the chief of their pantheon), and then turns into Yahweh (which was much more based on the Zoroastrian version of God). Yahweh originally had a wife named Asherah, though she was tossed out around the time when Elijah was fighting with the priests of Baal. The temple of Solomon originally had two shrines, one dedicated to Yahweh, and the other dedicated to "His Asherah", who was a pagan wife deity from the Canaanite faith.
However, Zoroastrianism has always been around, has ALWAYS preached the doctrines that Christ preached, and it's where all the prophecies that Hesus fulfilled came from. The religion was started by a man who sought the true path of God due to him seeing the whoredoms and the sacrifices of all these other religions. It was then that he received a vision from Ahura Mazda, the god that has existed from everlasting to everlasting, and who preached peace and kindness, rather than obedience/dominance/sacrifices.
Anyway, I feel like that's a good starting point. I myself am agnostic but I figured this info might be useful to you 🙏
@@theeight-roadwanderer6286 fascinating!
@@MichelleBStone honestly I am finding your thoughts and perspective to be incredibly comforting and enlightening. Please continue, at least for a time 🙏
Adieu
I have read your many comments with much interest, and I confess frustration. It is very strange how you intentionally miss the entire point of the story and the podcast and only look for very small, irrelevant points to nit pick and contradict -- usually setting up a straw man of what I claim, and then being overly literalistic in a very strange way. I don't think it is good for a woman to not be able to talk to her husband without being invited by him, whenever he wants her, or risk death. That's not a good arrangement. I would hope you can agree with that.
And to another of your comments here, if a woman is taken by the king, and then cloistered in the King's harem for the rest of her life, unable to live her own life freely, unable to marry and have children, but held captive according to his whims and desires, she is not her own person. She is owned -- her existence is not her own, but is completely dependent on the whims of her master. Please tell me what you would call this situation.
People continually bring up these OT stories to claim polygamy is God's way. I argue that these OT cultures were extremely regressive -- not anything we would want to live in -- should not be used as examples for us today. People ignore all the very obvious extremely negative elements of these cultures in order to claim that somehow polygamy (one of the very negative elements of these cultures) is not only Godly, but an essential part of God's law that must be lived and will be the order of Zion and Heaven.
If you want to nit pick whether the scriptures acknowledge that these rejected concubines are basically slaves, you are free to do so, but I have a hard time seeing what you are hoping to prove or accomplish.
That is true of the vast majority of your other comments as well. Can you see and address the larger issues?
I agree that 132 is a problem and is probably not from God. However, even without it I think the Biblical record is clear that polygyny is allowed. I disagree with many Mormon polygamists that polygamy is a "higher law" l. I think that's just a reaction to the cultural condemnation of the practice. Additionally, I think the Book of Mormon is incorrect in the places where it contradicts the Bible by condemning polygamy.
Genesis 16:9 is the closest we have to God commanding polygamy. Here He commands Hagar to return to her polygamous familial arrangement. If He did not approve of polygamy He would not have commanded her to return to a sinful lifestyle. So basically He is saying "Thou shalt live polygamy" to Hagar.
In Exodus 21:10 we see the commandments requiring a man to care for his first wife if he married another.
Deuteronomy 17:16-17 does indeed command against multiplying wives, but it also condemns multiplying horses, gold, and silver. Yet, it would be illogical to conclude that this meant the king could only have one horse, and one piece of gold and silver. Not to mention it only applies to the king.
In Deuteronomy 21:15 we find inheritance laws for when a man has more than one wife. Here again polygamy is being regulated not condemned.
In Deuteronomy 25:5 we learn of Leverite marraige. This is the second closest we get to a "thou shalt practice polygamy" commandmebt. While not explicitly polygamous, the marital status of a man is irrelevant when it comes to Levirate marriage. A man is not exempt from this even if he is already married.
As you mentioned in 2 Samuel 12:7-8 God says He gave David his wives. But He also says He would have given him more. God would not have made that statement if polygamy was sinful.
In 1 Corinthians 7:10-11 men and women are given different commandments for when a wife departs from her husband. The wife is commanded to remain unmarried or reconcile with her husband. The husband is not commanded to remain unmarried instead he is only commanded not to divorce the wife that has departed. Thus it would be possible for a man to marry a second wife while his first was departed and then if the first is reconciled he would have two wives.
Concerning concubines, while I think it's easy to jump to the extreme of sexual slavery; the word "concubine" is a broad term that doesn't ONLY mean sexual slavery. It can also be used to apply to many other forms or relationship that could be considered a lesser form of marriage. I'm sure we could find or design many different types of polygamous systems where the term concubine could apply and NOT refer to slavery.
You make the point that God “allows” for polygyny in the Biblical record, but the fact that something exists cannot be used as evidence of God’s approval. I believe Michelle’s thesis that polygyny does not originate from and is not inspired by God is extremely strong. The scriptures you cite here acknowledge the existence of polygyny, and seem to command fair treatment within that reality. The same can be said for scriptures which explain how slaves should be treated in various circumstances. But does slavery originate with God? Or is it part of eternity? I have never heard any sincerely believing Christian claim it did and is. Nathan’s statement to King David is one I’ve heard as clearly showing polygyny’s divine approval. She references that here and I agree it does not make sense doctrinally.
Yet, you cite no scriptures to support your claim.
Contracted service, indentured service are not slavery nor perpetual service.