This episode was super triggering, yet incredibly informative. My ex husband is related to Joseph Smith and claims to be able to receive direct revelation from Joseph and Jesus. I can now recognize a direct correlation between his behaviors in the 20 years we were married and the 30+ years I knew him and the behaviors of Joseph that are being described in this episode. My ex also happens to be incredibly mentally and emotionally unstable and a very malicious and cruel human….all in the name of god, of course. Thank you for helping me to more clearly see the generational trauma/abuse from him that I endured for so long. I’m so grateful for this channel!!!
PLEASE put jen in more episodes. She resonates with a beauty that’s rare. I love hearing her input in any interview i’ve heard from these podcasts. She’s a light to the podcast.
Getting teary towards the end while slowly catching up. For me this episode is one of the most powerful. Amazing interview, learned a lot and also touching
literally my eight year old son was listening and said ' mom if i told people i got gold plates from an angel, i would just make gold plates and not let people get too close' duh. all of this is logic an 8 year old is capable of. thank you for such a succinct episode. Jen i whole heartly agree. makes me cry too. sending love.
I'm a Bible believing Christian and I have discussions with those of other religions and skeptics sometimes. And honestly my 8 year old often has logical responses and can see logical contradictions in skeptics challenges or in other religions quicker then I can. I've got her so books on logic so she can further develop that skill. And a lot of the questions people that left hrisrianiry when they were children or never learned about it, have about the Bible and Christanity is knowledge that an 8 year old can answer.
I've been out of the church for a few years now after being a member for 40 years!! It's so hilariously untrue I can't fathom how anyone defends it anymore. However, no one could really talk to me about it's falsehood either for a long time. There are so many mental gymnastics one has to go through to rational all the discrepancies with this church.
@@truthisbeautiful7492 I could never reconcile the whole polygamy aspect of the early church. I tried to rationalize that for years. Also I was overworked and miserable in our little branch. I'd say the CES letter was my gateway to allowing myself to really explore the falsehoods of the church, and WOW did the floodgates open!
@@jonbaker476 an interesting idea. I thought the idea was that they submit to their religious leaders and have what they 'testimony' which those religious leaders tell them means those religious leaders are true. So then everything that doesn't match that doesn't matter or is wrong or is outweighed by the authority of the religious leaders and their personal experience. Is that right?
I want to say this very carefully because of the way light skin and dark skin can be predjudicially used to prove beliefs of value/worthiness. My grandfather was First Nations Cree born with Albinoism. Which leads me to speculate/wonder if what European colonists , observed and perceived as white natives, was actually just Albinoism. My grandfather suffered greatly with his condition, it was not a blessing, it did not make morally superior and holy . It wasn't just the impact on his health, but growing up feeling other, he stood out in a way that drew bullying and being picked on. He had alot of obstacles to overcome, but he achieved success and found community in being a military man(Navy). He had a larger than life personality and a keen intellect. He was also very kind and gracious. Skin tone does not denote worthiness. You choose the sort of person you want to be by your actions and reactions.
Steven's childhood experience is gripping! His expertise is pretty neat, esp if he's NOT published yet. He didn't seem to have a book to sell or a prospective financial gain for being here. And that makes this legit cool to me.
The Mound Builder Myth and Ten Tribes Theory were separate until Ethan Smith brought them together. The idea comes from Esdras, which says they tribes went to a land where never mankind dwelt. This forced Ethan to have one migration that split. Prior to this, writers had the Mound Builders and Indians coming from different places. The change in skin color was explained as environmentally caused over time.
@Dan Vogel to help me better understand, I'm new to this, who was Ethan Smith and who was Esdras? I know your knowledge is vast; have watched a lot of your presentations. Thank you to Mr. Pynnager for sharing his story and all this information also.
@@libbysunsun9561 Ethan Smith wrote a book A View of the Hebrews, which connected the Indians with the lost tribes of Israel, published in 1823 and 1825. I don't think it directly influenced JS but it shows the mindset of many in his culture. JS was already committed to the Hebrew origin of the Indians before Cowdery showed up in April 1829. The parallels between Ethan's book and the BofM are overblown by those who are too eager to disprove it. The ten tribes theory was based on a passage in the book of Esdras in the Apocrypha. The northern tribes were carried away captive to Assyria about 730 BCE and then, according to Asdras, escaped eastward into a 'land where never mankind dwelt." Ethan interpreted this to mean America. So if the Indians were the ten tribes the Mound Builder could not have been here before they arrived. So Ethan had the tribes land in America and then separate into two main groups with one destroying the other more civilized group.
@@Moksha-Raver I'm not sure when it started, but I think it had something to do with the belief that the ten tribes remained together and so where could they be? That was one creative solution. JS is reported to have said they were taken away on another planet.
@@sasquatl I'm only explaining the Mound Builder Myth as some in JS's day presented it. The question about the Eskimos is typically associated with the theory of evolution, which wasn't around in JS's day. However, the question betrays a lack of understanding regarding the theory of evolution. Briefly and simply, evolution doesn't change genetics but operates on the variation existing in the gene pool by favoring the traits better suited to the environment. There's nothing inevitable about this process.
It was easy for me to leave the church. My family wasn't happy with my decision to join a cult. Ironically, they were sad I left because it put me on a straight and narrow path (vs my brothers) that lead me to success in life. But I couldn't live a lie, and because there were no consequences of leaving (why most UT Mormons don't leave I suspect) I moved on. Of course, I was/am shunned by my old friends who claimed to 'love me' while I was in the cult. That's how you know it's a cult by the way. When you're shunned the second the door hits your ass as you leave the confines of delusion into the light of truth. Delusion can only survive is seclusion. In the friendly confines of darkness. (only evil works in secret. In darkness) I personally haven't gone after old associates to try and convince them their beliefs are the delusions of a freemasonic sex addict with well defined mental issues (believing in witchcraft and treasure hunting for example) Nor do I point out all of the factual contradictions (See CES Letter for examples) that lead the open minded to only one logical conclusion. Joseph Smith was a fraud. I allow them to live in the bliss of their own ignorance and enjoy it for as long as they can. However. I know that there is a price to be paid for living a lie. The worse. Having to choose between shunning or living a lie once the truth is learned. Nobody should have to fear having their parents or family hating them! Having them think of them as a loser! Evil! A lost soul destined for eternal hell. Those are not the teaching of Christ whom the church claims to represent! Christ was for bringing peace to the weary and the downtrodden. Not creating weary and downtrodden! The church is the opposite in practice of what they preach! They preach love and practice hate. The church allows their members to express and harbor this vitriol towards their own children because I believe, based on the evidence at hand, that the church is Satanic in nature. Born of witchcraft and Masonic lies (Masons worship Lucifer: thetruedefender.com/former-freemason-exposed-the-satanic-secrets-of-international-masons-cult-the-truth-has-been-revealed/) This explains why there is so much satanic ritual abuse among the 'brethren' in Utah. I suspect 5-10% are straight up undercover Satanists! The rest will discover they were living in a Satanic cult after they leave and they have their heart torn out by the so called "Christian' parents, brothers and sisters, good friends who proceed to ghost them for god. Nobody wants to talk about the well hidden Satanic foundational origins of Joseph Smith. It's not politically correct to do so, especially if you live in Utah. I don't. So I do.
Thank you for your truthful knowledge and for being so honest, it is a shock when you find out these lies, I turned to God for help, the real God and my faith has grown so much. God Bless You and thanks again!!
@@hollayevladimiroff131 Thanks Hollaye. So have I! The real 'Creator" god isn't a person in my current world view. God is the creator of my soul. All life force. Not an old man living in a cloud. The old man god of the bible, Elohim (the great ones) was not our creator! They may have manipulated our DNA to create the modern Rh negative bloodline (white people basically) and so forth, but they are not to be worshiped! All religions based on those lies will cause hate. Not love. Identity. Not universal natural law truth. I'm writing a new book based on this and doing a lot of research. It is now my evidence based opinion that BELIEF and IDENTITY THINKING is the enemy of God! (The true god - creator of your consciousness and all consciousness) That 'life force' that is in everything 'alive' great and small (bacteria-plants-animals-humans) does not care if you're gay or straight. American or Russian. Democrat or Republican. Christian or Muslim. A 'divine algorithm' was created to adjudicate all of the decisions we make in due time and to steer our soul from chaos to perfect order. I think of this 'reality' as a dream in our creators mind. I see myself as holographically part of my creator, and you and everyone else too. I feel my creator wants me to create, not destroy. Enjoy this wonderful simulation he created for me. Not pigeon hole myself into a tiny hole that a false religion created for me. Love, not hate or judge those with different identities (beliefs). That's the god I thank for my blessings. And whom I try to emulate. PS. Those exmos who have become atheists or turned to Scientism (evolution, big bang) are falling into the same false belief systems they left! Mormonism is a Freemasonic belief system. So is evolution (Darwin 33 freemason) Newtonism (33 freemason) Even the person who proposed dinosaurs existed 10 yrs before they found a bone to promote his THEORY was a 33 freemason! (Look up: Dinosaurs Never Existed - RUclips) DON'T BELIEVE IN LIES! Believe in what you can replicate via experiments where 100% of the evidence is on the table for examination and cross examination. If the subject matter doesn't give you full access to all of the evidence, you cannot know if it's true or false! So don't believe in any politics or Scientism! Secret societies and spy agencies are created to hide evidence and information! Let the talking heads talk! They say for instance vaccines are safe and effective. But the drug companies tried to hide the evidence of known side effects. They want you to BELIEVE their lies! But does the evidence support that conclusion? No. It proves the opposite. It proves vaccines are dangerous and don't work. I rest my case.
May God forgive you all for being liars and blaspheming against his church. Y'all are fulfilling Prophecy. Jesus was lied on too. Satan's favorite thing to do is deceive those that are on the right path. You will soon learn how wrong you are to switch up. That's a high price to pay. Don't be deceived!!! God is alive and well.
Thank you Steven for explaining the evangelical churches. I was raised as Pentecostal. And have lots of questions about the similarities to LDS. I was always confused at how the LDS thought they had a monopoly on the trinity and laying of hands for the holy ghost. Now I understand the history .
Hi Jen, Think of your time in the Mormon faith as a stepping stone, not a waste or loss!. It worked for you until it didn't. You're now testing another stepping stone... each will get you closer to your goal. Enjoy the ride! Read the book "as a woman thinketh" by James Allen. It's more of a pamphlet, but it's filled with wisdom!
The original title of the book you recommended is entitled: 'As a Man thinketh' by James Allen. I've got a copy of this in my library - great book. Where did the title you used, originate?
Hi Joel, The Book "as a man thinketh" was later rewritten by James Allen for women and its title changed. All refers to a man are changed and refer to a woman instead.
I think Steven is right that Joseph probably legitimately believed a lot of his own BS, and also thought he was justified in lying in order to get people to believe him faster. He was a delusional, sincere (but also lying) narcissist. People are complicated and Smith is no exception.
54:00 this sounds very much like how writer and storyteller L. Ron Hubbard created such fantastic (in context of fantasy) events before the Church of Scientology was established, and then later assimilated them into church doctrine.
Jen...Don't apologize for your comments towards the end! What you said fits me, I converted just short of my 32nd birthday, didn't marry or have children because I followed the counsel to only date to marry in the temple, I did temple work..removing your name cancels it...which I don't agree, so won't give them satisfaction. To me it's like your in college and quit, yes you don't get your university degree, but because you quit college they don't take away your high school degree too! Just too much time and money spent with the church. Yes, I've grown in faith, yes I still have issues with standard Christian churches that got me to LDS in the first place, yes there's things I like about the Temple..at this point, I'd be ok with just praying in the celestial room. Plus, friends I've met.....interestingly, as I question the church my closest LDS friends have move far away like 3, and 4 have died...especially, in the last few years!!
This was fascinating - I taught a lot of US evangelical history in grad school, and Steven helped me map in how that “main branch” of the 2nd Great Awakening connects to Mormonism much more clearly. And JENN! Always grounding these conversations in how this history/doctrine effects peoples lived faith experience- I’m so thankful for her bringing her vulnerability to these convos
I agree that Comoro/Moroni isn't a good argument. Still, I like to use it to show how coincidences can happen, especially with names. I might change my mind on this if there was a clear link to Captain Kidd of both names. So far, there isn't.
As a Christian, I was touched with Jens vulnerability. When Steven was saying just look to Jesus it reminded me of something. The Bible plainly tells us Jesus is "The Author and FINISHER of our faith". That actually discredits any new cults. He is it. Period. Point blank. Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
this was one of the best episodes, thanks a lot Steven and Paul. And about what Jen said, You were able to say exactly what I think and what I felt when I realised the truth, I still get shock with it.Thanks to share it, and know that we all feel that too.it was really nice to hear you.
Thank you, Jen. You articulated where I’m at right now, too. You’re not alone in all this. There’s so much to sift through and so much I want to hold on to only to find it’s just made of sand. I appreciate your courage to share your story and true feelings, concerns and vulnerability. I’m so glad you’re on this program. You bring a great deal of authenticity.
I am really enjoying Steven. Sa sad that,non- Mormons and ex Mormons know more about us than us. Hopefully that will change, who knows, but we believe in miracles right!
@@tedgarrison8842one definition of testimony is " a public recounting of a religious conversion or experience." So yes, testimonies are real. Maybe you haven't had any type of religious experience, but to say no one has just isn't correct.
As a evangelical, reading Grant Palmer, and listening to Dan Vogel and Sandra Tanner, it was great to see that this guy has studied this for years and come to similar conclusions on the influences.
Considering his grandfather also wrote about having a vision, having one being a minister, his dad believing folk magic himself, his moms saying she listened to Joseph's stories since he was little about indians
Jen, I feel the same. 😞 All we can do it take it one day at a time , as you are, and look for the good, the beauty, the purpose. It is here. My personal belief, at this moment at least, is that it is NOT found in any religion. Great episode ! (I enjoy them all). Thank you!
Honestly why does everyone think it's so hard to write a book? Fiction writers do it every day. And he had no TV and Internet to distract. It's not even worth arguing that it wasn't possible.
@@ruckin3 I'm not saying it's easy. I'm just saying it's possible. I wrote 160 pages in one month while working full time. A better writer without a FT gig could pull 500 in 2, especially if he was a genius. It's not far fetched.
@@ruckin3 I'm saying what's possible when it's a project you care about and you have talent and time like Joseph. I'm only arguing it's possible. I apparently have neither talent nor time or interest, so you can keep your money. A 5k advance kinda sucks actually. My friends have done better for lesser works with companies with better ad budgets. Plus, if I was going to decieve the world with a new religious text, it would be much harder in the information age when people can just look the stuff up and disprove my tales before they have a chance to gain validity through my own charisma and connwoman skills, which are kind of subpar tbh.
@@ruckin3 Why would I write a deception to disprove a deception when I could just write the CES Letter and oh well that's already done. I don't have the stomach to lie like that or the talent anyway. But I know there are people who are smarter than me and more capable is all. I would never assume if I couldn't do something that it couldn't be done. That would be rather narcissistic.
@@ruckin3 If you could listen at all, you would notice that I already said he was a genius and it was a great work. But you clearly can't see past your own anger. Insults to strangers of whom you know nothing aren't super convincing. Why are you upsetting yourself by watching this YT video to begin with? You come across as someone who has no love for strangers that disagree with him. If the Book of Mormon is true or at least instructionally sound, I would have hoped it would have taught you to be more gracious to non believers instead of simply spreading hate. Your responses only confirm my suspicions.
I was born into and raised in a non religious family. We never went to Church or prayed. But we lived by our consciences. When I first met the Missionaries at age 25, I knew essentially nothing about Christianity, and had never even heard of Mormons. So what they told me about their Church was all strange. I took their challenge and asked God if what they were telling me is true. God sent his spirit to tell me that he is real, that he lives, and that the Missionaries are his laborers. I know this is true because I recognized and remembered his spirit as it filled my heart and soul to overflowing, filling my mind with great light, and showing to me heaven open, out of which poured his divine spirit which then gathered to the Missionaries seated on my couch in my living room. I know by this that everything about the Bible and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true, including of course Joseph Smith and the BOM. That's what I know. So it doesn't matter what anyone else says. So say away contrarily and say it forever, but I know what I know.
It’s interesting as an outsider looking in and listening to both of these men talk and share insights. Steve really does seem to be totally objective and unbiased. He doesn’t seem to be emotionally attached to whether it’s true or not. The man in black though, seems visibly shaken at the prospect that anything about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon being divine. Just my take.
I’m really grateful for Jen’s input at the end of the episode. Her vulnerability and sadness about wanting to find the good and the church or humans around the center of Mormonism and religion failing EVERY CHANCE THEY GET is so saddening and upsetting. Why do these people have to lie, cheat, con and swindle the vulnerable and gullible people around them instead of teaching them and lifting them up? The failure of humanity. Our selfishness is our continuous downfall until climate change decimates the earth.
It's interesting to see how Steven came to the opposite conclusion than I did. When I encountered Mormonism in my youth, having the background knowledge of historical criticism, I came to the conclusion: "People believe anything, even the most ridiculous and contradictory story. Could that mean that my own belief in biblical Christianity is also just a belief with no grounding in reality?" On the contrary, Steven supports many of Mormon standpoints that it's a matter of belief, because not doing so also leads to weaknesses in his own Christian apologetics.
Big fan of Steve, 1st time viewer here. I tend to type a lot so I will try to speak broadly. Steve is a true researcher because I hear tons of the information from him that I have recently learned but he does have Assumptions that are hard to "know" are blurring his sharp focus. Mainly Point of View. (Wayne May, Robin Young, Robert Kay) POV: Book of Mormon is an Abrahamic Faith , restored thru God's seers. (Do you know how many seers are in the Holy Bible?over 20 ( I will highlight the 25 verses about seers in the Holy Bible, to see who questioned what a seer has professed ) POV: I studied this stuff with a desire, also and there are more cleaning up you Need to research yourself. Joseph never was a Polygamist, recently proven but as he testified his innocence. Did you know Abraham was headed to Carthage jail to assist Joseph!, legally? Did you know Lincoln knew of Joseph Smith, platform, running for president in 1944, Lincoln did it in 1866. After checking out the Book of Mormon for 8 months, then issued the emancipation proclamation. (The young lady should not feel sad that modern lds human's trying their best, didn't teach her, the study material is in abundance and is not hidden from anyone. Now everyone can search but the adversary is there too. You must be able to discern God's Loving Hands. Like these Channels. Religion is individual & your understanding of it should have been on your shoulders since your youth & growth in a church. Leave the teachers & building and study the past, by yourself. The church is a Great tool to begin , but no the leg work is done independently, one step at a time The answers are in 1830's ... (maybe I typed too much) God Bless this time, we find ourselves in. This is an answer to one of my pray projects. Thanks for your time and consideration. - Jason
I was reading a reprint of an early BM edition. It even appears written as a story. There were no footnotes, cross-references or chapter, headings or verses. That gets added later.
I so appreciate you breaking down the influence that JS coming from Pilgrim stock had. I always think this is what is missing when we consider LDS history. I am related to Joseph Smith through the Gould side and see this kind of approach to spirituality going back centuries in the family. In a way Mormonism is sort of a blip in time. We were driven out as Huguenots during St.Bartholomews Masacre and this mirrors the Mormon experience in Kirkland. Mormon history is World History anew. We don't seem to have a grasp of religious history through the ages
I'm a never Mormon and i'm working on assessing who the authorship of the BOM is. Should be done by the end of June. I think there is some historical things that have been overlooked.
@2:50. Jenn, your words made both of us weep. A lot. We are at the exact same spot. Our trainwrecks starting the same time. But Steve is right. Hang onto Jesus. And all that is good. Think. You were not a bad person because you were a member. No one is. The Church doesn't teach to be evil, it teaches people to be good, God fearing--God loving people serving members. It's the "Things you never learned in Sunday School" that trainwrecks us all. Jenn, the Church taught us that Jesus and the Church are one in the same. That the Church is Jesus and Jesus is the Church. Subconsciously, they've taught us that all our beliefs belong to the Church and by doing what we're told in the Church, is how we get to Jesus. When people learn what really happened, it tears at our souls because it feels like Jesus is being ripped out of our hearts and taken from us. That's how strong the teachings are. Then they threaten us with the loss of everything we hold dear in our hearts if we turn away or disobey them. The Church has taken so much from you Jenn, don't let them take Jesus from you too. They don't own Jesus and they don't own your relationship with Him. You do. Long explanation short, the Church is good for people until it's not. Like all other Churches, when it's not good for them, Jesus leads them out. The REAL truth is, ALL Churches have truth and no Church has all truth. Jesus loves us. He loves everyone of every faith and even of no faith. And when He comes back, He'll say to every good person everywhere, "Bring the truths you have and come follow me."
Regarding the "complexity" of the movement of warring factions in the Book of Mormon, consider reading The Histories of Herodotus Volumes I and II translated from the Greek by G. C. Macaulay. In this book he gives an historical account of the Hellenic area back in the days of Paganism and pre-Christian. As I read it, it sounded a lot like the Book of Mormon. So, if Herodotus could give this kind of account, this is simply one book that could have been accessed in the time of Joseph Smith. I don't think the internet would have had to be a requirement. Look at L. Ron Hubbard. The human mind can create illusion and tell fantastic stories along side of or independent of other influences. Just a thought.
I really appreciate Steven for his interview! Thank you for your explanations of some of these things. I do have to give a huge shout-out to Jenn, because her comments near the end were freaking amazing. We're still processing all the lies and still feel like the Church could be amazing if it would just come clean and do it. Let go of dogma and move forward. But it won't and that's super painful.
Hi Kolby, The Mormon top leadership tends to reward themselves the second endorsement, which for them is a guarantee of acceptance by God! Again, They award themselves!!! Absolute power corrupts absolutely, they won't change, it puts their belief in their second Endowment in question! For them, they are in charge, God put them in charge and they can do no wrong as God wants it their way, or they wouldn't be there! That's their logic, their commitment, their goal! Didn't Jesus say something about if the keystone weak or unfit it will bring the building/ bridge down? Question is, are the Mormon leaders a bridge to God, or a barrier?
@@sidvicious2845 I agree with your comments. They have become exactly like the Pharisees that Jesus decried constantly. In my mind, they're far more of a barrier than a bridge.
Great points. People used to create Memory Palaces to memorize huge amounts of information. They would walk through a palace with many rooms and furnishings in their mind and to each of those objects they would attach an item to remember. It sounds like Joseph did something similar. He could walk through his geography to keep his story and themes Consistent. Google memory palaces to see how people used this method.
I had a similar experience, I was never mormon and I found mormonism to be probably the most fascinating religion because of it's massive width, the synthesis of religions, the outlandish claims Joseph made, the corky history and plots. I studied mormonism on my own for a while, then found an ex mormon group near by and the encouraged people to actually attend the services. I studied with missionaries for a year, a few things did shock me about Mormonism eg the belief God is an actual man just without blood, and that God isn't omnipresent, don't worship Jesus. I already knew about humans becoming gods beforehand, but I was shocked there were so many more things if evangelicals knew they would not emphasis Jesus and lucifer were brother as much as those. The missionaries, teachers and elders kept passing me along from the family ward to ysa where they had institute and they told me to go to institute for some very important questions. The institute teacher tried to explain why Jesus was exempt from undergoing the theosis, temple marriage etc to be a God first and did them after ward. The answer was disappointing. I also asked where the Holy Ghost came from and he speculated he was HFs brother, I found other sources saying he is just Jesus brother. After a brief time studying I found out I knew more than most Mormons, which surprised me since Mormons spend 3 hours a week plus studying, but the stuff they studying is pretty repetitive, low level, and reading about the presidents of the Church. I guess Church spends times on easy stuff. I've gotten in discussions and debates and some would accuse me of being ex mormon. I talked to some ex mormon groups and they said Mormon education is long and poor quality and it reflects in fast and testimony. To be fair, I bet most catholic and protestants have an even worse education since we don't push education at all beyond teen confirmations classes which are very superficial.
@Socal Islander "you are a priest *forever* according to the order of Melchizedek" The sacrifice was not abolished Luke 22 Christ uses a word charged with sacrifice connotation "anamnesis"--memorial offering. And Paul uses it in 1 corinthians 11 again when talking about receiving the Lord's supper. Likewise, Hebrews 13 alludes to the Christian "altar". Malachi 1:11 says there will be a clean oblation and incense offered to God from the gentiles. The early church fathers said this is the eucharist. However, re sacrificing is sacrilege and all the Apostolic churches including catholic deny this happens, but a re-presenting, since Christ cannot die again. 1 corinthians 10 is very clear after explaining Christ was the rock in the wilderness that He is present in the Lord's supper. This is a matter there's no dispute among Catholic, eastern Orthodox and other old churches
The Book of Mormon in 8 months comes out to about 1116 words per day. For National Novel Month we write 1666 words a day to end a month with 50,000 words written. Easy peasy, especially if you've already got the story laid out in your mind. I used to "write" during my commute every day, and put it all down on paper when I got home. True that I generally don't have to remember all of the begats for one of my mystery novels, but for a serious writer who is tied up in the story and characters they're creating, the Book of Mormon isn't miraculous in its telling. Also, I just wanna hug Jen!
it is nice that he wants to comfort her at the end. but christianity as a whole got similar problems than mormonism. fact is that there are no evidences at all for a metaphysical being like god. and especially the stories of the bible are mostly not what they claim to be so much. the best we got are letters written decades after the events and the worst are mythological stories picked up from surrounding cultures and written down thousands of years after they are supposed to have happened. I would like mormonism to be true. I would love christianity to be true. I would even be glad if consciousness just persists somehow. but there are no proofs for it and no way to know epistemological. but for that reason I like channels like "closer to truth" to treat with those topics for people who wants to know....
Having grown up in the Restoration Movement (Christian Churches & Churches of Christ), this is still the term (Restoration Movement) we use for our "Brotherhood of Churches" ("We are not a denomination, hence I have said - for almost 50 years - "the non-denominational denomination".). There are 3 main branches: Disciples of Christ (the more "liberal", "mainstream-like", often more liturgy branch), the Church of Christ (originally & post-Civil War, in the south; non-instrumental; extremely concervative branch) & the (Independent) Christian Church (more middle of the road; uses instruments; usually soft-comp - a "softened" form of Complementarianism; still supporting "Independent Missionaries"). Independents & Church of Christ still practice Belivers Baptism (older & adults; no babies) and weekly Communion (with a cracker & grape juice). Each congregation practices congregational-rule. There is no one body making decisions on our beliefs than the congregation. (There are a couple of loose knit bodies that hold conventions, but they are mainly worship, teaching, workshops, training & fellowship focused. No votes are taken.) Yes, these all came out of the Campbelite or Stone-Campbellite Movement. Yes, the label "Restoration Movement" came from the attempt to restore the NT Church.
Thanks for including all the restoration churches that have come from Joseph Smith….as past RLDS. It is nice to hear not just about the “Mormon” church. I know Community of Christ has changed a lot….which I applaud….but in the past the RLDS shared many lies with Mormonism. ( although I know some of our practices were definitely not as hurtful as the those of the Mormon church)
Respectfully, Steven seems like he has done a lot of reading and admits when he doesn't know an answer, which is refreshing, but I find his approach disquieting. A great example is when he tells Jenn to seek Jesus, and when she says she isn't going to do what other people tell her to, he rushes in to tell her not to listen to him or anyone. It's a scramble to stay in control imo. I'm confused as to what his agenda is and I did go check out some of his work, and it didn't help clarify anything. He seems to be targeting Mormons to follow his new non-religious religion and he seems to try to be staying ahead (of Jenn at least here) and reframe legitimate objections in a way that reminds me very much of Joseph Smith, a man he says he loves, even though he KNOWS that he married and bedded children. I am deeply confused by this guest, and I am unhappy to hear that he is going to be on the next couple of episodes.
I would be interested in how the original manuscript would show a better context of what, how and style of writing Joseph used in creating the B of M. It is more difficult for the listener to understand much of this discussion due to relating the present day scripture rather than the original creation written in book form etc.
Interesting per giants lore: in the early 1800's in what is the area of USA, there were several myths & "tall tales" circulating about giants. One such myth which is thought to have emerged out of that era of early 1800's storytelling is the myth of the giant Paul Bunyan and his Ox.
I started wearing a cross way before I left the church. Of course , I got a lot of grief until I explained it’s history.I studied a little and found that it was a sign of redemption of they dead. Crosses were fine in the church until DAVID O. MCKAY came up with the concept of the cross being a reminder of the death of cross etc.
I have thoroughly enjoyed the discourse and knowledge of Steven Pynnaker, for his depth into the History of Mormonism. Looking forward to the additional podcasts! I, too, am a never-Mo (as about 1/2 of John's regular audience tends to be), and have long been fascinated with the Mormon religion since I was raised in Arizona around so many faithful Members. I was a 5th generation Anglo-Catholic (Anglican/Episcopalian), and we were always taught to love and respect the LDS Members. The Book of Mormon, as correctly translated whether by Seer Stone or special glasses, has many redeeming tenets. The difficulty comes in believing that Jesus came to the Americas as did the Lost Tribes. The 10 Lost Tribes were exiled after the Neo-Assyrian Conquest of Israel around 722 BCE. 2 remaining tribes of Israel were Judah and Benjamin who joined to form the Kingdom of Judah. Whereas it is at least on theory the lost Hebrew tribes scattered northward to the European / Roman Empire. Regarding mound builders, especially in the British Isles, dating back at least 5000 years mound builders were burying their dead (see the famous Newgrange mounds in Ireland north of Dublin), and were of Celtic origin. Likewise, the inhabitants of the America’s are said to have come across the Bering strait and migrated south into central and South America. Case in point: the Incas were small, indigenous people with slightly slanted/narrow eyes, high cheek bones, and longer flattened noses with broad nostrils, bearing little resemblance to eastern Mediterranean and Middle Eastern peoples. I’ve personally travelled twice to Cuzco and Machu Picchu where resemblance of the Quechua Indian descendants reside today high up in the Andes Mountains. Above all, blessings and many thanks go to John Dehlin for his exhaustive work in the Open Stories Foundation and his fascinating Podcasts of Interesting people across the spectrum. He is supported by a growing cast of wonderful co-hosts, including Margie, Carah, Hirardo and Jen. Mormon Stories is getting better like the aging of fine wine! Bravo! And don't go picking on Carah -- she's the BOMB, and John's the BOSS!
A different Jesus, a different Spirit and a different gospel is what Joseph Smith created. 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 "But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough."
Don't forget that it is very possible that Joseph and Emma created part of Mosiah before Oliver showed up to be a scribe: Feb./March (1829)-- Joseph/HC (1838)see also: (The last part of D&C 10 as recorded in the Book of Commandments) "And if this be the case, behold I say unto you, Joseph, when thou hast translated a few more pages, thou shalt stop for a season, even until I command thee again; And except thou do this, behold thou shalt have no more gift, and I will take away the things which I have intrusted thee." (Parallel D&C, p. 8) (HC:I, p. 30-31)
I volunteer my husband for the Second Most Knowledgeable Never Mormon. He'll probably catch up with Steven when he's done with college and has time to research all the mormon historical stuff he wants
Jenn, really touched my soul♡! It is immoral not to reveal to members true history, my God, many are attorneys, is where is truth in history and doctrine, testimony.
Steven does an incredible job coming up with a naturalistic explanation of the BOM. He did lose me at the idea that Joseph had all this in his head and just spit it out from memory/imagination…That is a hard one.
The Spaulding Manuscript - is key to the start of the Book of Mormon - By Solomon Spaulding Many of these documents have been destroyed - if you can locate one - please read how the witnesses to the Book of Mormon also had seen the document - as well as J.Smith
When Jenn was speaking about feeling the betrayal of the modern church and it not being true to the original teachings of JS-I feel so confused. What I took away from the episode is that the entire BOM and religion was created to make money…it’s always been a corporation. This isn’t new in my opinion. I have gone through a faith crisis as well and I feel for all out there going through a similar situation.
Interesting theories from a naturalistic/secular perspective, but I do believe the BoM is authentic and that the truth claims of the Lds Christian faith are real. To Jen: if there's still some hope left in you like you mentioned, that it could still true, dont give up! You've immersed yourself in some of the history from a critical perspective; there are many members who know this history from a faithful perspective and continue to be faithful members! Also not all the sources referenced in this video are necessarily trustworthy. For example trusting Willard Chase's (the man who stormed the Smith home with others looking to steal the plates) 3rd hand account of what Smith Sr. supposedly said to him about what Samuel T Lawrence supposedly said to Smith Jr. about spectacles in the box that he couldn't see, etc. Relying on info (affidavits) put together by an anti mormon committee, led by a person (Hurlbut) with an axe to grind against the Smith family for losing a lawsuit when he defrauded the Smith family over 2 horses used for farm work. Their statements are not trustworthy since they were trying to take down the Smith family from the beginning for other reasons. And much much more! The critical anti narrative isn't true! The church is run by fallible people just like the new testament church, but we have the priesthood and revelation from God and continuing scripture. This is the Lord's true church! I could give alot more corrections and context to things said in this video, but covering 3 hours of content is simply too much to write into a comment section.
the book of Mormon is book from hell,Joseph Smith American religious leader, smith said god and jesus appeared to him , this is a lie , because in the bible god is one , god is not jesus and god,he is not 2 ,god spirit manifested in jesus , plus smith while praying one night in 1823, he was visited by an angel named Moroni. Smith said this angel revealed the location of a buried book made of golden plates, as well as other artifacts, including a breastplate and a set of interpreters composed of two seer stones set in a frame, which had been hidden in a hill near his home, this is all from hell, i tell you...who ever fallows this is going to burn in hell
The comment about The Book of Mormon taking place all in Joseph Smith's backyard, made me think of the tv show St Elsewhere, when on the series finale, you find out that it was all in the imagination of a child looking into a snow globe!
Americans seem obsessed with the word ‘Race’ race is a social construct. We are one species with different levels of melanin. Cultural differences are more relevant to our worldly perceptions. Cultural differences are related to our environment and history, the amount of melanin was part of our environmental history.
Very interesting parallel with NEPHITES and NEOPHYTES **What is the root word of neophyte? Neo- means new, and -phyte is from the Greek phuton, "plant" - like a baby plant, a neophyte is someone who is new to an activity. In Greek, neophytos (literally "newly planted") was used to refer to a new church convert.
@22:00 talking about how middle eastern people would have looked at the time, it's interesting to note that there was alot of African slaves they would have had. As I recall it was most common to take the women as house slaves and concubines, and the men were absolutely not to be trusted so they would have been castrated before being used as slave labor. So there was actually alot of descendants coming from black slave women.
Also it's assumed they were dark skinned, but even in Israeli to Afghanistan the skin color varying from very dark to Lilly white, freckles and red hair, curly hair, there was diversity long before modern colonization since colonizing was going on even in the ancient world. I am not sure there would have been much black African slave trade in Jesus time in Israel though certainly by Muhammeds time as I think you are alluding to, there was already one established
B.H. Roberts analysis of BoOm compared to "Day of the Hebrew" and had dozens of double column comparisons and after years of study found no way to defend against the accusation BofM was a plagerization of DofH.
Could the plates have been made of brass? That looks close enough to gold. I was always told there were witnesses who beheld (and some touched) the golden plates.
@@jcrook5904 And there were no tin plates as Steven alleges. That story would require the witnesses to all keep their mouths shut. And you know Emma like a woman would want to see the plates as would any of other scribes. I also don't think JS was that smart to write the BM all on his own.
There was an entire restorationist movement that spun off several groups and this was something we covered in American history class. I'm surprised this is not common knowledge.
Hi, Had JS had an Eidetic memory like the character Sheldon Cooper on Big Bang Theory ,and been able to recreate the 116 pages of the beginning of the book of Mormon word perfect from Memory...would this ability have confirmed to people of his day that he was a prophet, them not knowing what an Eidetic memory is? Would that ability convince people today that someone is a prophet?
@@sidvicious2845 It is doubtful that she would have been able to get Martin to do that. But even if she pulled that off it would still be obvious where Martin made the changes because we're talking about a handwritten document. How would he make the changes without crossing out or otherwise obviously scratching out the original text in order to insert the changes? If he did it in the main body of the text, it would be obvious. If he did it by adding stuff at the end...it would be very obvious. If he did it by taking out whole pages and inserting new pages, it probably would also be very obvious, due to differences in ink and paper as well as abrupt differences in style in the wording. And then there's the story about Martin Harris supposedly testing Joseph Smith by secretly swapping Joseph Smith's stone for another stone to see if Joseph would still be able to translate with the imposter stone. If that story is true (and it seems to be generally accepted as true by faithful and skeptics alike), all it does is reveal that Martin was really "un-smart" (to be diplomatic about it), since you'd have to be pretty dumb to think that Joseph Smith wouldn't be able to immediately see differences between the imposter rock and Joe's own pet rock. According to the story, it seems clear that Joe just played along and played Martin like a fiddle. “Martin, what is the matter, all is as dark as Egypt!” exclaimed Joseph, pretending not to know that Martin was trying to trick him with a different stone.
Mormonism needs a reformation and so does the Constantinian church. The false narrative (creeds) that formed the foundation of the Constantinian church need to be discarded and we need to talk to Jesus about what he really was about. Those sources - Downloads for Jesus - can be the basis of finding spiritual truth and revising untruths. All that does not align with Jesus will, in time, be shaken and fall. Will Mormonism stand?
Very interesting. But you pretty much forgot to weigh in on the lives and testimonies of the 8+2 BoM witnesses and what should we make of them. I'm not a believing lds, but after reading 'Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses'(Richard Lloyd Anderson) years ago, I at least came to better understand why so many grown up, well-educated people still say today that the case for the veracity of 'the faithful story' can be made.
Please study "Spiral dynamics". It can explain why people hold different beliefs, and how they treat people in other belief systems. It will also give you a good grasp where your beliefs are located in the 21st century.
I have a theory about the 116 pages. Could it have been Joseph who took the pages out of Martin Harris’ home in order to have a reason to have Oliver Cowdrey be his scribe? The only reason Martin was allowed to be a scribe was the need to have a financial backer for printing the Book of Mormon.
I keep listening to Steven but it feels like I'm watching a slow motion train wreck. As an atheist and never Mo I see here a slightly creepy side to him that is flirting with the idea that he has "spiritual gifts", that he knows how to make a cult, that as a young child people thought he had "some prophetic calling", that at the end of the first episode he felt that doing this was something god was arranging. For me this is wild and weird and bordering on dangerous. The phrase "pious fraud" is nuts and is passed over like it is nothing when he is referring to Benny Hinn and JS.
The fan “man-ing” of Joseph Smith was cringe. I mean he was a con artist that eventually had 30 something wives that included married and underage women. I just don’t understand how this is in anyway close to God.
@@powderandpaint14 🤷♀️He spent 15 minutes talking about what a great man JS was and how he feels they are kindred spirits to the point Jenn and John both questioned how he could feel this way in light of his doings. I also felt that at points he would get defensive of JS-you could see it in his body language and speech patterns. Just my opinion. I think he’s a smart guy. I just think he feels that he has an exalted destiny-which maybe he does…but it feels a little weird to me. Just my opinion.
Speaking of the dualing of the seers at 141:20, reminds me of the later vision of the three kingdoms of glory (D&C 76) where Sidney Rigdon and Joseph did the same thing.
Watch the Lucy code!!!! Most the ideas for the BofM came from Hyrum's religious experience at Dartmouth College. The most likely scenario, IMO is that this is ALL about saving the Smith farm and preventing Joseph from being arrested again for using the seer stone. They ALL wrote it! Joseph would then read from the hat! No dictating here at all...the reason he would ask for things to read back was to ensure it was matching what was written...multiple author voices going on here...one for Lucy, one Joseph Sr., one for Hyrum and one for Joseph Jr...further evidence of starting over after the 116 pages were lost - who would want to put all that back in the hat and the likely burned the originals so they would be caught...given ole Joe more credit than he deserves...he was patsy for the family con...The great illusion here is that this really NOT a spiritual story...it's an economical one...Hyrum was WAY, WAY, WAY smarter than his brother...
His comment on the Jesus resurrection is really a false dichotomy. It ignores a ton of information (like how Roman's typically threw crucified people into mass graves, not tombs )and all the other ways that that story could have gone. Just saying.
I had what I call a "Life During Life" experience and I can tell you this much. It worked for me. BTW you are in eternity right now. Time doesn't exist. "Infinity" is a mathematical construct and it has been figured out. AND there are 4 versions so which one do you want to use? Doesn't matter eternity has no time, and NO gravity. Wait till you get there. It's beyond imagination. There weren't, aren't and never will be words to describe it so I anit gonna try. One question I have is; Was I sent back or was I pulled back? HUMMM.... So if your eyes are here and you are in the celestial kingdom how do you see? You ears are here and you can hear. It seems like you are standing on the ground and there isn't one. There are no crosses being worn, no UFO's on heads, screen doors on woman faces so how does that work? Yer not naked but you didn't bring clothes with you. No one has money. Or CRYPTO!! Techies from DWORK'N!! You feel so wonderful but you didn't bring your nerves or chemicals with you. It's not explainable. Just a thought...the scriptures are a map to get home. But ya might want to follow the rules...just say'n... Either way, I can try and describe something what it's like with this...When you see a new little child run up to their mom and dad and want a hug and they do a team hug and that smile the child has is PERFECT and you can almost see the love bursting from them, It's like that X a TRILLION X a TRILLION X a TRILLION X a TRILLION X just to start with. Just AMAZING!! The teachings are true and they are waiting patiently for you to get back home so try your best and OH MY GOODNESS!! Wait till you get there!! Just don't get into the FAST LANE!! HA!! Also there are a LOT of frauds on YT and such where people say they had a life after death, near death experience etc...there is one idiot that has a "Lizard Breath" character, a cookie party and the history channel in hell so watch out for that idiot. And if they even mention time...FRAUD...they say "This happened" and then they use a scripture to validate it...FRAUD...there is NO WAY to describe it. And they have plugs in their "Testimony" about their book they wrote...FRAUD...and say that Satan took them on a tour of heaven...UHH...Yer WHAT hurts?!?!? Last time I Checked..Yep just checked...Satan was thrown out to never return so how does that work?!?!
This episode was super triggering, yet incredibly informative. My ex husband is related to Joseph Smith and claims to be able to receive direct revelation from Joseph and Jesus. I can now recognize a direct correlation between his behaviors in the 20 years we were married and the 30+ years I knew him and the behaviors of Joseph that are being described in this episode. My ex also happens to be incredibly mentally and emotionally unstable and a very malicious and cruel human….all in the name of god, of course. Thank you for helping me to more clearly see the generational trauma/abuse from him that I endured for so long. I’m so grateful for this channel!!!
Interesting.
PLEASE put jen in more episodes. She resonates with a beauty that’s rare. I love hearing her input in any interview i’ve heard from these podcasts. She’s a light to the podcast.
@@jennkamp9524 of course! you’re influence and inputs resonate with me immensely and make me cry sometimes. thanks again ♥️
Getting teary towards the end while slowly catching up. For me this episode is one of the most powerful.
Amazing interview, learned a lot and also touching
literally my eight year old son was listening and said ' mom if i told people i got gold plates from an angel, i would just make gold plates and not let people get too close' duh. all of this is logic an 8 year old is capable of. thank you for such a succinct episode. Jen i whole heartly agree. makes me cry too. sending love.
I'm a Bible believing Christian and I have discussions with those of other religions and skeptics sometimes. And honestly my 8 year old often has logical responses and can see logical contradictions in skeptics challenges or in other religions quicker then I can. I've got her so books on logic so she can further develop that skill. And a lot of the questions people that left hrisrianiry when they were children or never learned about it, have about the Bible and Christanity is knowledge that an 8 year old can answer.
I've been out of the church for a few years now after being a member for 40 years!! It's so hilariously untrue I can't fathom how anyone defends it anymore. However, no one could really talk to me about it's falsehood either for a long time. There are so many mental gymnastics one has to go through to rational all the discrepancies with this church.
I so relate to your comment! Glad (yet sad) I'm not alone.
What was the most challenging historical problem for you? Did you see the influences that Grant Palmer, Dan Vogel and Sandra Tanner had identified?
@@truthisbeautiful7492 I could never reconcile the whole polygamy aspect of the early church. I tried to rationalize that for years. Also I was overworked and miserable in our little branch. I'd say the CES letter was my gateway to allowing myself to really explore the falsehoods of the church, and WOW did the floodgates open!
I think everyone knows it isn't true deep down, which is why they work so hard to defend it
@@jonbaker476 an interesting idea. I thought the idea was that they submit to their religious leaders and have what they 'testimony' which those religious leaders tell them means those religious leaders are true. So then everything that doesn't match that doesn't matter or is wrong or is outweighed by the authority of the religious leaders and their personal experience. Is that right?
I want to say this very carefully because of the way light skin and dark skin can be predjudicially used to prove beliefs of value/worthiness. My grandfather was First Nations Cree born with Albinoism. Which leads me to speculate/wonder if what European colonists , observed and perceived as white natives, was actually just Albinoism.
My grandfather suffered greatly with his condition, it was not a blessing, it did not make morally superior and holy . It wasn't just the impact on his health, but growing up feeling other, he stood out in a way that drew bullying and being picked on. He had alot of obstacles to overcome, but he achieved success and found community in being a military man(Navy). He had a larger than life personality and a keen intellect. He was also very kind and gracious.
Skin tone does not denote worthiness. You choose the sort of person you want to be by your actions and reactions.
Great episode! Nice to hear Steven’s perspective.
Also, Jenn should totally contribute in future episodes! Really nice hearing from her at the end.
Steven's childhood experience is gripping! His expertise is pretty neat, esp if he's NOT published yet. He didn't seem to have a book to sell or a prospective financial gain for being here.
And that makes this legit cool to me.
Jen's comments at the end are spot on and beautiful.
The Mound Builder Myth and Ten Tribes Theory were separate until Ethan Smith brought them together. The idea comes from Esdras, which says they tribes went to a land where never mankind dwelt. This forced Ethan to have one migration that split. Prior to this, writers had the Mound Builders and Indians coming from different places. The change in skin color was explained as environmentally caused over time.
So how did the hollow-earth tribes idea originate?
@Dan Vogel to help me better understand, I'm new to this, who was Ethan Smith and who was Esdras? I know your knowledge is vast; have watched a lot of your presentations. Thank you to Mr. Pynnager for sharing his story and all this information also.
@@libbysunsun9561 Ethan Smith wrote a book A View of the Hebrews, which connected the Indians with the lost tribes of Israel, published in 1823 and 1825. I don't think it directly influenced JS but it shows the mindset of many in his culture. JS was already committed to the Hebrew origin of the Indians before Cowdery showed up in April 1829. The parallels between Ethan's book and the BofM are overblown by those who are too eager to disprove it.
The ten tribes theory was based on a passage in the book of Esdras in the Apocrypha. The northern tribes were carried away captive to Assyria about 730 BCE and then, according to Asdras, escaped eastward into a 'land where never mankind dwelt." Ethan interpreted this to mean America.
So if the Indians were the ten tribes the Mound Builder could not have been here before they arrived. So Ethan had the tribes land in America and then separate into two main groups with one destroying the other more civilized group.
@@Moksha-Raver I'm not sure when it started, but I think it had something to do with the belief that the ten tribes remained together and so where could they be? That was one creative solution. JS is reported to have said they were taken away on another planet.
@@sasquatl I'm only explaining the Mound Builder Myth as some in JS's day presented it. The question about the Eskimos is typically associated with the theory of evolution, which wasn't around in JS's day. However, the question betrays a lack of understanding regarding the theory of evolution. Briefly and simply, evolution doesn't change genetics but operates on the variation existing in the gene pool by favoring the traits better suited to the environment. There's nothing inevitable about this process.
Jenn's reaction at the end was so moving and touching
It was easy for me to leave the church. My family wasn't happy with my decision to join a cult. Ironically, they were sad I left because it put me on a straight and narrow path (vs my brothers) that lead me to success in life. But I couldn't live a lie, and because there were no consequences of leaving (why most UT Mormons don't leave I suspect) I moved on. Of course, I was/am shunned by my old friends who claimed to 'love me' while I was in the cult. That's how you know it's a cult by the way. When you're shunned the second the door hits your ass as you leave the confines of delusion into the light of truth. Delusion can only survive is seclusion. In the friendly confines of darkness. (only evil works in secret. In darkness)
I personally haven't gone after old associates to try and convince them their beliefs are the delusions of a freemasonic sex addict with well defined mental issues (believing in witchcraft and treasure hunting for example) Nor do I point out all of the factual contradictions (See CES Letter for examples) that lead the open minded to only one logical conclusion. Joseph Smith was a fraud. I allow them to live in the bliss of their own ignorance and enjoy it for as long as they can. However. I know that there is a price to be paid for living a lie. The worse. Having to choose between shunning or living a lie once the truth is learned. Nobody should have to fear having their parents or family hating them! Having them think of them as a loser! Evil! A lost soul destined for eternal hell. Those are not the teaching of Christ whom the church claims to represent! Christ was for bringing peace to the weary and the downtrodden. Not creating weary and downtrodden! The church is the opposite in practice of what they preach! They preach love and practice hate.
The church allows their members to express and harbor this vitriol towards their own children because I believe, based on the evidence at hand, that the church is Satanic in nature. Born of witchcraft and Masonic lies (Masons worship Lucifer: thetruedefender.com/former-freemason-exposed-the-satanic-secrets-of-international-masons-cult-the-truth-has-been-revealed/) This explains why there is so much satanic ritual abuse among the 'brethren' in Utah. I suspect 5-10% are straight up undercover Satanists! The rest will discover they were living in a Satanic cult after they leave and they have their heart torn out by the so called "Christian' parents, brothers and sisters, good friends who proceed to ghost them for god.
Nobody wants to talk about the well hidden Satanic foundational origins of Joseph Smith. It's not politically correct to do so, especially if you live in Utah. I don't. So I do.
Thank you for your truthful knowledge and for being so honest, it is a shock when you find out these lies, I turned to God for help, the real God and my faith has grown so much. God Bless You and thanks again!!
@@hollayevladimiroff131 Thanks Hollaye. So have I! The real 'Creator" god isn't a person in my current world view. God is the creator of my soul. All life force. Not an old man living in a cloud. The old man god of the bible, Elohim (the great ones) was not our creator! They may have manipulated our DNA to create the modern Rh negative bloodline (white people basically) and so forth, but they are not to be worshiped! All religions based on those lies will cause hate. Not love. Identity. Not universal natural law truth. I'm writing a new book based on this and doing a lot of research. It is now my evidence based opinion that BELIEF and IDENTITY THINKING is the enemy of God! (The true god - creator of your consciousness and all consciousness) That 'life force' that is in everything 'alive' great and small (bacteria-plants-animals-humans) does not care if you're gay or straight. American or Russian. Democrat or Republican. Christian or Muslim. A 'divine algorithm' was created to adjudicate all of the decisions we make in due time and to steer our soul from chaos to perfect order. I think of this 'reality' as a dream in our creators mind. I see myself as holographically part of my creator, and you and everyone else too. I feel my creator wants me to create, not destroy. Enjoy this wonderful simulation he created for me. Not pigeon hole myself into a tiny hole that a false religion created for me. Love, not hate or judge those with different identities (beliefs). That's the god I thank for my blessings. And whom I try to emulate.
PS. Those exmos who have become atheists or turned to Scientism (evolution, big bang) are falling into the same false belief systems they left! Mormonism is a Freemasonic belief system. So is evolution (Darwin 33 freemason) Newtonism (33 freemason) Even the person who proposed dinosaurs existed 10 yrs before they found a bone to promote his THEORY was a 33 freemason! (Look up: Dinosaurs Never Existed - RUclips) DON'T BELIEVE IN LIES! Believe in what you can replicate via experiments where 100% of the evidence is on the table for examination and cross examination. If the subject matter doesn't give you full access to all of the evidence, you cannot know if it's true or false! So don't believe in any politics or Scientism! Secret societies and spy agencies are created to hide evidence and information! Let the talking heads talk! They say for instance vaccines are safe and effective. But the drug companies tried to hide the evidence of known side effects. They want you to BELIEVE their lies! But does the evidence support that conclusion? No. It proves the opposite. It proves vaccines are dangerous and don't work. I rest my case.
ritualistic abuse is real within the LDS community
May God forgive you all for being liars and blaspheming against his church. Y'all are fulfilling Prophecy. Jesus was lied on too. Satan's favorite thing to do is deceive those that are on the right path. You will soon learn how wrong you are to switch up. That's a high price to pay. Don't be deceived!!! God is alive and well.
JS was a 33rd degree mason. I was flabbergasted when I discovered this information.
Thank you Steven for explaining the evangelical churches. I was raised as Pentecostal. And have lots of questions about the similarities to LDS. I was always confused at how the LDS thought they had a monopoly on the trinity and laying of hands for the holy ghost. Now I understand the history .
Hi Jen,
Think of your time in the Mormon faith as a stepping stone, not a waste or loss!. It worked for you until it didn't. You're now testing another stepping stone... each will get you closer to your goal. Enjoy the ride!
Read the book "as a woman thinketh" by James Allen. It's more of a pamphlet, but it's filled with wisdom!
The original title of the book you recommended is entitled:
'As a Man thinketh' by James Allen. I've got a copy of this
in my library - great book. Where did the title you used, originate?
Kudos! It's been said: It's incumbent upon each individual to: search, question, and investigate all things. - The independent investigation of truth.
Hi Joel,
The Book "as a man thinketh" was later rewritten by James Allen for women and its title changed. All refers to a man are changed and refer to a woman instead.
I think Steven is right that Joseph probably legitimately believed a lot of his own BS, and also thought he was justified in lying in order to get people to believe him faster. He was a delusional, sincere (but also lying) narcissist. People are complicated and Smith is no exception.
Cf. L. Ron Hubbard.
54:00 this sounds very much like how writer and storyteller L. Ron Hubbard created such fantastic (in context of fantasy) events before the Church of Scientology was established, and then later assimilated them into church doctrine.
Jen...Don't apologize for your comments towards the end! What you said fits me, I converted just short of my 32nd birthday, didn't marry or have children because I followed the counsel to only date to marry in the temple, I did temple work..removing your name cancels it...which I don't agree, so won't give them satisfaction. To me it's like your in college and quit, yes you don't get your university degree, but because you quit college they don't take away your high school degree too!
Just too much time and money spent with the church. Yes, I've grown in faith, yes I still have issues with standard Christian churches that got me to LDS in the first place, yes there's things I like about the Temple..at this point, I'd be ok with just praying in the celestial room. Plus, friends I've met.....interestingly, as I question the church my closest LDS friends have move far away like 3, and 4 have died...especially, in the last few years!!
This was fascinating - I taught a lot of US evangelical history in grad school, and Steven helped me map in how that “main branch” of the 2nd Great Awakening connects to Mormonism much more clearly. And JENN! Always grounding these conversations in how this history/doctrine effects peoples lived faith experience- I’m so thankful for her bringing her vulnerability to these convos
I agree that Comoro/Moroni isn't a good argument. Still, I like to use it to show how coincidences can happen, especially with names. I might change my mind on this if there was a clear link to Captain Kidd of both names. So far, there isn't.
An online search of the word "Manti" returns recipes for Turkish dumplings. Maybe Captain Kidd liked dumplings?
makes sense, maybe that's why Parley tried to establish mormonism in Chile.
As a Christian, I was touched with Jens vulnerability. When Steven was saying just look to Jesus it reminded me of something. The Bible plainly tells us Jesus is "The Author and FINISHER of our faith". That actually discredits any new cults. He is it. Period. Point blank.
Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
John’s skeptical chuckle throughout this episode (in response to Joseph Smith’s account of events) is priceless. 😂
Hearing any type of praise for LDS is very hard for me, the Mormon church taught me one thing, an intense hatred of religion…not God, just religion.
this was one of the best episodes, thanks a lot Steven and Paul. And about what Jen said, You were able to say exactly what I think and what I felt when I realised the truth, I still get shock with it.Thanks to share it, and know that we all feel that too.it was really nice to hear you.
Jen's response is how a lot of us felt when we first learned these things ❤️
This series with Steven Pynakker is incredible. i have enjoyed every second of it. Is there going to be a Pt. 3?
Thank you, Jen.
You articulated where I’m at right now, too. You’re not alone in all this. There’s so much to sift through and so much I want to hold on to only to find it’s just made of sand. I appreciate your courage to share your story and true feelings, concerns and vulnerability.
I’m so glad you’re on this program. You bring a great deal of authenticity.
I am really enjoying Steven. Sa sad that,non- Mormons and ex Mormons know more about us than us. Hopefully that will change, who knows, but we believe in miracles right!
@@krismurphy7711 ya, I understand completely. Still hoping it changes. Otherwise testimonies aren't real either. Based on fairytale. Sad
@@tedgarrison8842one definition of testimony is " a public recounting of a religious conversion or experience." So yes, testimonies are real. Maybe you haven't had any type of religious experience, but to say no one has just isn't correct.
As a evangelical, reading Grant Palmer, and listening to Dan Vogel and Sandra Tanner, it was great to see that this guy has studied this for years and come to similar conclusions on the influences.
I super feel that "Jen moment". The deception is crazy and it does hurt to know how much was kept from us.
Joseph didn't con his parents. They were in on it from the beginning.
Considering his grandfather also wrote about having a vision, having one being a minister, his dad believing folk magic himself, his moms saying she listened to Joseph's stories since he was little about indians
Jen, I feel the same. 😞
All we can do it take it one day at a time , as you are, and look for the good, the beauty, the purpose. It is here.
My personal belief, at this moment at least, is that it is NOT found in any religion.
Great episode ! (I enjoy them all). Thank you!
Honestly why does everyone think it's so hard to write a book? Fiction writers do it every day. And he had no TV and Internet to distract. It's not even worth arguing that it wasn't possible.
And coincidentally, when they have their vision or find gold plates, no one else is ever around… 🤔
@@ruckin3 I'm not saying it's easy. I'm just saying it's possible. I wrote 160 pages in one month while working full time. A better writer without a FT gig could pull 500 in 2, especially if he was a genius. It's not far fetched.
@@ruckin3 I'm saying what's possible when it's a project you care about and you have talent and time like Joseph. I'm only arguing it's possible. I apparently have neither talent nor time or interest, so you can keep your money. A 5k advance kinda sucks actually. My friends have done better for lesser works with companies with better ad budgets. Plus, if I was going to decieve the world with a new religious text, it would be much harder in the information age when people can just look the stuff up and disprove my tales before they have a chance to gain validity through my own charisma and connwoman skills, which are kind of subpar tbh.
@@ruckin3 Why would I write a deception to disprove a deception when I could just write the CES Letter and oh well that's already done. I don't have the stomach to lie like that or the talent anyway. But I know there are people who are smarter than me and more capable is all. I would never assume if I couldn't do something that it couldn't be done. That would be rather narcissistic.
@@ruckin3 If you could listen at all, you would notice that I already said he was a genius and it was a great work. But you clearly can't see past your own anger. Insults to strangers of whom you know nothing aren't super convincing. Why are you upsetting yourself by watching this YT video to begin with? You come across as someone who has no love for strangers that disagree with him. If the Book of Mormon is true or at least instructionally sound, I would have hoped it would have taught you to be more gracious to non believers instead of simply spreading hate. Your responses only confirm my suspicions.
I was born into and raised in a non religious family. We never went to Church or prayed. But we lived by our consciences. When I first met the Missionaries at age 25, I knew essentially nothing about Christianity, and had never even heard of Mormons. So what they told me about their Church was all strange. I took their challenge and asked God if what they were telling me is true. God sent his spirit to tell me that he is real, that he lives, and that the Missionaries are his laborers. I know this is true because I recognized and remembered his spirit as it filled my heart and soul to overflowing, filling my mind with great light, and showing to me heaven open, out of which poured his divine spirit which then gathered to the Missionaries seated on my couch in my living room. I know by this that everything about the Bible and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is true, including of course Joseph Smith and the BOM. That's what I know. So it doesn't matter what anyone else says. So say away contrarily and say it forever, but I know what I know.
Amen. These Evangelicals need too invest there time in better ppl than this angry Atheist who has sexual abuse suspicions against him
It’s interesting as an outsider looking in and listening to both of these men talk and share insights. Steve really does seem to be totally objective and unbiased. He doesn’t seem to be emotionally attached to whether it’s true or not.
The man in black though, seems visibly shaken at the prospect that anything about Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon being divine.
Just my take.
I’m really grateful for Jen’s input at the end of the episode. Her vulnerability and sadness about wanting to find the good and the church or humans around the center of Mormonism and religion failing EVERY CHANCE THEY GET is so saddening and upsetting. Why do these people have to lie, cheat, con and swindle the vulnerable and gullible people around them instead of teaching them and lifting them up? The failure of humanity. Our selfishness is our continuous downfall until climate change decimates the earth.
It's interesting to see how Steven came to the opposite conclusion than I did. When I encountered Mormonism in my youth, having the background knowledge of historical criticism, I came to the conclusion: "People believe anything, even the most ridiculous and contradictory story. Could that mean that my own belief in biblical Christianity is also just a belief with no grounding in reality?" On the contrary, Steven supports many of Mormon standpoints that it's a matter of belief, because not doing so also leads to weaknesses in his own Christian apologetics.
Big fan of Steve, 1st time viewer here. I tend to type a lot so I will try to speak broadly. Steve is a true researcher because I hear tons of the information from him that I have recently learned but he does have Assumptions that are hard to "know" are blurring his sharp focus. Mainly Point of View. (Wayne May, Robin Young, Robert Kay) POV: Book of Mormon is an Abrahamic Faith , restored thru God's seers. (Do you know how many seers are in the Holy Bible?over 20 ( I will highlight the 25 verses about seers in the Holy Bible, to see who questioned what a seer has professed ) POV: I studied this stuff with a desire, also and there are more cleaning up you Need to research yourself. Joseph never was a Polygamist, recently proven but as he testified his innocence. Did you know Abraham was headed to Carthage jail to assist Joseph!, legally? Did you know Lincoln knew of Joseph Smith, platform, running for president in 1944, Lincoln did it in 1866. After checking out the Book of Mormon for 8 months, then issued the emancipation proclamation. (The young lady should not feel sad that modern lds human's trying their best, didn't teach her, the study material is in abundance and is not hidden from anyone. Now everyone can search but the adversary is there too. You must be able to discern God's Loving Hands. Like these Channels. Religion is individual & your understanding of it should have been on your shoulders since your youth & growth in a church. Leave the teachers & building and study the past, by yourself. The church is a Great tool to begin , but no the leg work is done independently, one step at a time The answers are in 1830's ... (maybe I typed too much) God Bless this time, we find ourselves in. This is an answer to one of my pray projects. Thanks for your time and consideration. - Jason
I was reading a reprint of an early BM edition. It even appears written as a story. There were no footnotes, cross-references or chapter, headings or verses. That gets added later.
I so appreciate you breaking down the influence that JS coming from Pilgrim stock had. I always think this is what is missing when we consider LDS history. I am related to Joseph Smith through the Gould side and see this kind of approach to spirituality going back centuries in the family. In a way Mormonism is sort of a blip in time. We were driven out as Huguenots during St.Bartholomews Masacre and this mirrors the Mormon experience in Kirkland. Mormon history is World History anew. We don't seem to have a grasp of religious history through the ages
I'm a never Mormon and i'm working on assessing who the authorship of the BOM is. Should be done by the end of June. I think there is some historical things that have been overlooked.
@2:50. Jenn, your words made both of us weep. A lot. We are at the exact same spot. Our trainwrecks starting the same time. But Steve is right. Hang onto Jesus. And all that is good. Think. You were not a bad person because you were a member. No one is. The Church doesn't teach to be evil, it teaches people to be good, God fearing--God loving people serving members. It's the "Things you never learned in Sunday School" that trainwrecks us all.
Jenn, the Church taught us that Jesus and the Church are one in the same. That the Church is Jesus and Jesus is the Church. Subconsciously, they've taught us that all our beliefs belong to the Church and by doing what we're told in the Church, is how we get to Jesus. When people learn what really happened, it tears at our souls because it feels like Jesus is being ripped out of our hearts and taken from us. That's how strong the teachings are. Then they threaten us with the loss of everything we hold dear in our hearts if we turn away or disobey them.
The Church has taken so much from you Jenn, don't let them take Jesus from you too. They don't own Jesus and they don't own your relationship with Him. You do.
Long explanation short, the Church is good for people until it's not. Like all other Churches, when it's not good for them, Jesus leads them out. The REAL truth is, ALL Churches have truth and no Church has all truth.
Jesus loves us. He loves everyone of every faith and even of no faith. And when He comes back, He'll say to every good person everywhere, "Bring the truths you have and come follow me."
I loved this interview! So much historical information that I had not heard before!
Regarding the "complexity" of the movement of warring factions in the Book of Mormon, consider reading The Histories of Herodotus Volumes I and II translated from the Greek by G. C. Macaulay. In this book he gives an historical account of the Hellenic area back in the days of Paganism and pre-Christian. As I read it, it sounded a lot like the Book of Mormon. So, if Herodotus could give this kind of account, this is simply one book that could have been accessed in the time of Joseph Smith. I don't think the internet would have had to be a requirement. Look at L. Ron Hubbard. The human mind can create illusion and tell fantastic stories along side of or independent of other influences. Just a thought.
I really appreciate Steven for his interview! Thank you for your explanations of some of these things.
I do have to give a huge shout-out to Jenn, because her comments near the end were freaking amazing. We're still processing all the lies and still feel like the Church could be amazing if it would just come clean and do it. Let go of dogma and move forward. But it won't and that's super painful.
Hi Kolby,
The Mormon top leadership tends to reward themselves the second endorsement, which for them is a guarantee of acceptance by God! Again, They award themselves!!! Absolute power corrupts absolutely, they won't change, it puts their belief in their second Endowment in question! For them, they are in charge, God put them in charge and they can do no wrong as God wants it their way, or they wouldn't be there! That's their logic, their commitment, their goal! Didn't Jesus say something about if the keystone weak or unfit it will bring the building/ bridge down? Question is, are the Mormon leaders a bridge to God, or a barrier?
@@sidvicious2845 I agree with your comments. They have become exactly like the Pharisees that Jesus decried constantly. In my mind, they're far more of a barrier than a bridge.
Great points. People used to create Memory Palaces to memorize huge amounts of information. They would walk through a palace with many rooms and furnishings in their mind and to each of those objects they would attach an item to remember. It sounds like Joseph did something similar. He could walk through his geography to keep his story and themes Consistent. Google memory palaces to see how people used this method.
First thing I thought of as well.
I had a similar experience, I was never mormon and I found mormonism to be probably the most fascinating religion because of it's massive width, the synthesis of religions, the outlandish claims Joseph made, the corky history and plots. I studied mormonism on my own for a while, then found an ex mormon group near by and the encouraged people to actually attend the services. I studied with missionaries for a year, a few things did shock me about Mormonism eg the belief God is an actual man just without blood, and that God isn't omnipresent, don't worship Jesus. I already knew about humans becoming gods beforehand, but I was shocked there were so many more things if evangelicals knew they would not emphasis Jesus and lucifer were brother as much as those. The missionaries, teachers and elders kept passing me along from the family ward to ysa where they had institute and they told me to go to institute for some very important questions. The institute teacher tried to explain why Jesus was exempt from undergoing the theosis, temple marriage etc to be a God first and did them after ward. The answer was disappointing. I also asked where the Holy Ghost came from and he speculated he was HFs brother, I found other sources saying he is just Jesus brother.
After a brief time studying I found out I knew more than most Mormons, which surprised me since Mormons spend 3 hours a week plus studying, but the stuff they studying is pretty repetitive, low level, and reading about the presidents of the Church. I guess Church spends times on easy stuff.
I've gotten in discussions and debates and some would accuse me of being ex mormon. I talked to some ex mormon groups and they said Mormon education is long and poor quality and it reflects in fast and testimony.
To be fair, I bet most catholic and protestants have an even worse education since we don't push education at all beyond teen confirmations classes which are very superficial.
@Socal Islander "you are a priest *forever* according to the order of Melchizedek"
The sacrifice was not abolished Luke 22 Christ uses a word charged with sacrifice connotation "anamnesis"--memorial offering. And Paul uses it in 1 corinthians 11 again when talking about receiving the Lord's supper. Likewise, Hebrews 13 alludes to the Christian "altar". Malachi 1:11 says there will be a clean oblation and incense offered to God from the gentiles. The early church fathers said this is the eucharist. However, re sacrificing is sacrilege and all the Apostolic churches including catholic deny this happens, but a re-presenting, since Christ cannot die again.
1 corinthians 10 is very clear after explaining Christ was the rock in the wilderness that He is present in the Lord's supper.
This is a matter there's no dispute among Catholic, eastern Orthodox and other old churches
The Book of Mormon in 8 months comes out to about 1116 words per day. For National Novel Month we write 1666 words a day to end a month with 50,000 words written. Easy peasy, especially if you've already got the story laid out in your mind. I used to "write" during my commute every day, and put it all down on paper when I got home. True that I generally don't have to remember all of the begats for one of my mystery novels, but for a serious writer who is tied up in the story and characters they're creating, the Book of Mormon isn't miraculous in its telling. Also, I just wanna hug Jen!
Brilliant.
We are finally sitting down to listen to Stev Pynnacker, Peace Maker and man of reason!
it is nice that he wants to comfort her at the end. but christianity as a whole got similar problems than mormonism. fact is that there are no evidences at all for a metaphysical being like god. and especially the stories of the bible are mostly not what they claim to be so much. the best we got are letters written decades after the events and the worst are mythological stories picked up from surrounding cultures and written down thousands of years after they are supposed to have happened.
I would like mormonism to be true. I would love christianity to be true. I would even be glad if consciousness just persists somehow. but there are no proofs for it and no way to know epistemological. but for that reason I like channels like "closer to truth" to treat with those topics for people who wants to know....
Having grown up in the Restoration Movement (Christian Churches & Churches of Christ), this is still the term (Restoration Movement) we use for our "Brotherhood of Churches" ("We are not a denomination, hence I have said - for almost 50 years - "the non-denominational denomination".). There are 3 main branches: Disciples of Christ (the more "liberal", "mainstream-like", often more liturgy branch), the Church of Christ (originally & post-Civil War, in the south; non-instrumental; extremely concervative branch) & the (Independent) Christian Church (more middle of the road; uses instruments; usually soft-comp - a "softened" form of Complementarianism; still supporting "Independent Missionaries").
Independents & Church of Christ still practice Belivers Baptism (older & adults; no babies) and weekly Communion (with a cracker & grape juice). Each congregation practices congregational-rule. There is no one body making decisions on our beliefs than the congregation. (There are a couple of loose knit bodies that hold conventions, but they are mainly worship, teaching, workshops, training & fellowship focused. No votes are taken.)
Yes, these all came out of the Campbelite or Stone-Campbellite Movement.
Yes, the label "Restoration Movement" came from the attempt to restore the NT Church.
I’m loving this while working
Great stuff!
Thanks for including all the restoration churches that have come from Joseph Smith….as past RLDS. It is nice to hear not just about the “Mormon” church. I know Community of Christ has changed a lot….which I applaud….but in the past the RLDS shared many lies with Mormonism. ( although I know some of our practices were definitely not as hurtful as the those of the Mormon church)
Dan Vogel's Indian Origins and the Book of Mormon is a great history of this issue. One of my most valuable possessions of books on Mormon history.
Respectfully, Steven seems like he has done a lot of reading and admits when he doesn't know an answer, which is refreshing, but I find his approach disquieting. A great example is when he tells Jenn to seek Jesus, and when she says she isn't going to do what other people tell her to, he rushes in to tell her not to listen to him or anyone. It's a scramble to stay in control imo.
I'm confused as to what his agenda is and I did go check out some of his work, and it didn't help clarify anything. He seems to be targeting Mormons to follow his new non-religious religion and he seems to try to be staying ahead (of Jenn at least here) and reframe legitimate objections in a way that reminds me very much of Joseph Smith, a man he says he loves, even though he KNOWS that he married and bedded children. I am deeply confused by this guest, and I am unhappy to hear that he is going to be on the next couple of episodes.
I would be interested in how the original manuscript would show a better context of what, how and style of writing Joseph used in creating the B of M. It is more difficult for the listener to understand much of this discussion due to relating the present day scripture rather than the original creation written in book form etc.
Goodness, goodness Iam amazed how complicated a simple narrative can become! Scratching my head but your certainly allowed your ideas!
I'm obsessed with this series!!!!! So freaking good
Interesting per giants lore: in the early 1800's in what is the area of USA, there were several myths & "tall tales" circulating about giants. One such myth which is thought to have emerged out of that era of early 1800's storytelling is the myth of the giant Paul Bunyan and his Ox.
I started wearing a cross way before I left the church. Of course , I got a lot of grief until I explained it’s history.I studied a little and found that it was a sign of redemption of they dead. Crosses were fine in the church until DAVID O. MCKAY came up with the concept of the cross being a reminder of the death of cross etc.
I have thoroughly enjoyed the discourse and knowledge of Steven Pynnaker, for his depth into the History of Mormonism. Looking forward to the additional podcasts! I, too, am a never-Mo (as about 1/2 of John's regular audience tends to be), and have long been fascinated with the Mormon religion since I was raised in Arizona around so many faithful Members. I was a 5th generation Anglo-Catholic (Anglican/Episcopalian), and we were always taught to love and respect the LDS Members.
The Book of Mormon, as correctly translated whether by Seer Stone or special glasses, has many redeeming tenets. The difficulty comes in believing that Jesus came to the Americas as did the Lost Tribes. The 10 Lost Tribes were exiled after the Neo-Assyrian Conquest of Israel around 722 BCE. 2 remaining tribes of Israel were Judah and Benjamin who joined to form the Kingdom of Judah. Whereas it is at least on theory the lost Hebrew tribes scattered northward to the European / Roman Empire. Regarding mound builders, especially in the British Isles, dating back at least 5000 years mound builders were burying their dead (see the famous Newgrange mounds in Ireland north of Dublin), and were of Celtic origin. Likewise, the inhabitants of the America’s are said to have come across the Bering strait and migrated south into central and South America. Case in point: the Incas were small, indigenous people with slightly slanted/narrow eyes, high cheek bones, and longer flattened noses with broad nostrils, bearing little resemblance to eastern Mediterranean and Middle Eastern peoples. I’ve personally travelled twice to Cuzco and Machu Picchu where resemblance of the Quechua Indian descendants reside today high up in the Andes Mountains.
Above all, blessings and many thanks go to John Dehlin for his exhaustive work in the Open Stories Foundation and his fascinating Podcasts of Interesting people across the spectrum. He is supported by a growing cast of wonderful co-hosts, including Margie, Carah, Hirardo and Jen. Mormon Stories is getting better like the aging of fine wine! Bravo! And don't go picking on Carah -- she's the BOMB, and John's the BOSS!
A different Jesus, a different Spirit and a different gospel is what Joseph Smith created.
2 Corinthians 11:3-4
"But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough."
Don't forget that it is very possible that Joseph and Emma created part of Mosiah before Oliver showed up to be a scribe: Feb./March (1829)-- Joseph/HC (1838)see also: (The last part of D&C 10 as recorded in the Book of Commandments) "And if this be the case, behold I say unto you, Joseph, when thou hast translated a few more pages, thou shalt stop for a season, even until I command thee again; And except thou do this, behold thou shalt have no more gift, and I will take away the things which I have intrusted thee." (Parallel D&C, p. 8) (HC:I, p. 30-31)
Thank you for doing the shorts on RUclips!! That’s how I found this episode.
I volunteer my husband for the Second Most Knowledgeable Never Mormon. He'll probably catch up with Steven when he's done with college and has time to research all the mormon historical stuff he wants
Then I wanna meet him!!! And you Jessica!!!
Jenn, really touched my soul♡!
It is immoral not to reveal to members true history, my God, many are attorneys, is where is truth in history and doctrine, testimony.
Steven does an incredible job coming up with a naturalistic explanation of the BOM. He did lose me at the idea that Joseph had all this in his head and just spit it out from memory/imagination…That is a hard one.
The geography linkage thing is basically a memory palace. Great technique by the way to remember lots of information.
All of this, on many levels, is a cautionary tale.
The late War and the Book of Mormon have lots and lots of parallels!!
The Spaulding Manuscript - is key to the start of the Book of Mormon - By Solomon Spaulding Many of these documents have been destroyed - if you can locate one - please read how the witnesses to the Book of Mormon also had seen the document - as well as J.Smith
When Jenn was speaking about feeling the betrayal of the modern church and it not being true to the original teachings of JS-I feel so confused. What I took away from the episode is that the entire BOM and religion was created to make money…it’s always been a corporation. This isn’t new in my opinion. I have gone through a faith crisis as well and I feel for all out there going through a similar situation.
@@jennkamp9524 Do you have your own Mormon story episode Jenn? Cause I'm dying to hear it!!! ❤️
Interesting theories from a naturalistic/secular perspective, but I do believe the BoM is authentic and that the truth claims of the Lds Christian faith are real.
To Jen: if there's still some hope left in you like you mentioned, that it could still true, dont give up! You've immersed yourself in some of the history from a critical perspective; there are many members who know this history from a faithful perspective and continue to be faithful members!
Also not all the sources referenced in this video are necessarily trustworthy. For example trusting Willard Chase's (the man who stormed the Smith home with others looking to steal the plates) 3rd hand account of what Smith Sr. supposedly said to him about what Samuel T Lawrence supposedly said to Smith Jr. about spectacles in the box that he couldn't see, etc. Relying on info (affidavits) put together by an anti mormon committee, led by a person (Hurlbut) with an axe to grind against the Smith family for losing a lawsuit when he defrauded the Smith family over 2 horses used for farm work. Their statements are not trustworthy since they were trying to take down the Smith family from the beginning for other reasons. And much much more!
The critical anti narrative isn't true! The church is run by fallible people just like the new testament church, but we have the priesthood and revelation from God and continuing scripture. This is the Lord's true church!
I could give alot more corrections and context to things said in this video, but covering 3 hours of content is simply too much to write into a comment section.
@@jennkamp9524 thank you for taking the time to read and respond, and I wish you the best on your spiritual journey!
Excellent episode! Love the information and input from all.
the book of Mormon is book from hell,Joseph Smith
American religious leader, smith said god and jesus appeared to him , this is a lie , because in the bible god is one , god is not jesus and god,he is not 2 ,god spirit manifested in jesus , plus smith while praying one night in 1823, he was visited by an angel named Moroni. Smith said this angel revealed the location of a buried book made of golden plates, as well as other artifacts, including a breastplate and a set of interpreters composed of two seer stones set in a frame, which had been hidden in a hill near his home, this is all from hell, i tell you...who ever fallows this is going to burn in hell
. Maybe Steven Pynakker could take the Hugh Nibley challenge: the challenge where someone has to write a book comparable to the Book of Mormon.
How about Tolkien?
not that the BOM is any good. id does read like a 4 year old's story. "And i came to pass" is another way of saying UM UM UM UM
The comment about The Book of Mormon taking place all in Joseph Smith's backyard, made me think of the tv show St Elsewhere, when on the series finale, you find out that it was all in the imagination of a child looking into a snow globe!
Americans seem obsessed with the word ‘Race’ race is a social construct. We are one species with different levels of melanin. Cultural differences are more relevant to our worldly perceptions. Cultural differences are related to our environment and history, the amount of melanin was part of our environmental history.
Very interesting parallel with NEPHITES and NEOPHYTES
**What is the root word of neophyte?
Neo- means new, and -phyte is from the Greek phuton, "plant" - like a baby plant, a neophyte is someone who is new to an activity. In Greek, neophytos (literally "newly planted") was used to refer to a new church convert.
@22:00 talking about how middle eastern people would have looked at the time, it's interesting to note that there was alot of African slaves they would have had. As I recall it was most common to take the women as house slaves and concubines, and the men were absolutely not to be trusted so they would have been castrated before being used as slave labor. So there was actually alot of descendants coming from black slave women.
Also it's assumed they were dark skinned, but even in Israeli to Afghanistan the skin color varying from very dark to Lilly white, freckles and red hair, curly hair, there was diversity long before modern colonization since colonizing was going on even in the ancient world.
I am not sure there would have been much black African slave trade in Jesus time in Israel though certainly by Muhammeds time as I think you are alluding to, there was already one established
B.H. Roberts analysis of BoOm compared to "Day of the Hebrew" and had dozens of double column comparisons and after years of study found no way to defend against the accusation BofM was a plagerization of DofH.
Could the plates have been made of brass? That looks close enough to gold. I was always told there were witnesses who beheld (and some touched) the golden plates.
@@jcrook5904 And there were no tin plates as Steven alleges. That story would require the witnesses to all keep their mouths shut. And you know Emma like a woman would want to see the plates as would any of other scribes. I also don't think JS was that smart to write the BM all on his own.
I still don't get what the woodscrape incident was, or why it's significant. The explanation was extremely vague.
Look up "Nathaniel Wood" on Wikipedia. The "Wood Scrape" was an event involving apocalyptic prediction. (spoiler alert--it didn't pan out)
@@goatymacgoatface6544 Thanks!
There was an entire restorationist movement that spun off several groups and this was something we covered in American history class. I'm surprised this is not common knowledge.
Best take away/fun fact: Nephites are "neophytes"! Allegedly!
This was a fantastic episode. Thank you Mormon Stories!
Hi,
Had JS had an Eidetic memory like the character Sheldon Cooper on Big Bang Theory ,and been able to recreate the 116 pages of the beginning of the book of Mormon word perfect from Memory...would this ability have confirmed to people of his day that he was a prophet, them not knowing what an Eidetic memory is? Would that ability convince people today that someone is a prophet?
Hi Kris,
If MH gave his wife the papers, she could convince him to change the words in his own hand writing!
@@sidvicious2845 It is doubtful that she would have been able to get Martin to do that. But even if she pulled that off it would still be obvious where Martin made the changes because we're talking about a handwritten document. How would he make the changes without crossing out or otherwise obviously scratching out the original text in order to insert the changes? If he did it in the main body of the text, it would be obvious. If he did it by adding stuff at the end...it would be very obvious. If he did it by taking out whole pages and inserting new pages, it probably would also be very obvious, due to differences in ink and paper as well as abrupt differences in style in the wording.
And then there's the story about Martin Harris supposedly testing Joseph Smith by secretly swapping Joseph Smith's stone for another stone to see if Joseph would still be able to translate with the imposter stone. If that story is true (and it seems to be generally accepted as true by faithful and skeptics alike), all it does is reveal that Martin was really "un-smart" (to be diplomatic about it), since you'd have to be pretty dumb to think that Joseph Smith wouldn't be able to immediately see differences between the imposter rock and Joe's own pet rock. According to the story, it seems clear that Joe just played along and played Martin like a fiddle. “Martin, what is the matter, all is as dark as Egypt!” exclaimed Joseph, pretending not to know that Martin was trying to trick him with a different stone.
Time frame of the Book of Mormon translation. They days translating were spaced out. I have heard 41 days total, but I also heard 24 days.
Mormonism needs a reformation and so does the Constantinian church. The false narrative (creeds) that formed the foundation of the Constantinian church need to be discarded and we need to talk to Jesus about what he really was about. Those sources - Downloads for Jesus - can be the basis of finding spiritual truth and revising untruths. All that does not align with Jesus will, in time, be shaken and fall. Will Mormonism stand?
This is excellent! What a refreshing, considerate, and well thought out perspective. Thank you so much for this!
Very interesting. But you pretty much forgot to weigh in on the lives and testimonies of the 8+2 BoM witnesses and what should we make of them. I'm not a believing lds, but after reading 'Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses'(Richard Lloyd Anderson) years ago, I at least came to better understand why so many grown up, well-educated people still say today that the case for the veracity of 'the faithful story' can be made.
ive got a story for you. im on tiktok and was just excommunicated.
How can we submit a Mormon story?
Why do you laugh at the tower of babel? I believe that happened.
Please study "Spiral dynamics". It can explain why people hold different beliefs, and how they treat people in other belief systems. It will also give you a good grasp where your beliefs are located in the 21st century.
I have a theory about the 116 pages.
Could it have been Joseph who took the pages out of Martin Harris’ home in order to have a reason to have Oliver Cowdrey be his scribe?
The only reason Martin was allowed to be a scribe was the need to have a financial backer for printing the Book of Mormon.
I keep listening to Steven but it feels like I'm watching a slow motion train wreck. As an atheist and never Mo I see here a slightly creepy side to him that is flirting with the idea that he has "spiritual gifts", that he knows how to make a cult, that as a young child people thought he had "some prophetic calling", that at the end of the first episode he felt that doing this was something god was arranging. For me this is wild and weird and bordering on dangerous. The phrase "pious fraud" is nuts and is passed over like it is nothing when he is referring to Benny Hinn and JS.
The fan “man-ing” of Joseph Smith was cringe. I mean he was a con artist that eventually had 30 something wives that included married and underage women. I just don’t understand how this is in anyway close to God.
@@powderandpaint14 🤷♀️He spent 15 minutes talking about what a great man JS was and how he feels they are kindred spirits to the point Jenn and John both questioned how he could feel this way in light of his doings. I also felt that at points he would get defensive of JS-you could see it in his body language and speech patterns. Just my opinion. I think he’s a smart guy. I just think he feels that he has an exalted destiny-which maybe he does…but it feels a little weird to me. Just my opinion.
I keep having the very same thoughts!
Speaking of the dualing of the seers at 141:20, reminds me of the later vision of the three kingdoms of glory (D&C 76) where Sidney Rigdon and Joseph did the same thing.
Watch the Lucy code!!!! Most the ideas for the BofM came from Hyrum's religious experience at Dartmouth College. The most likely scenario, IMO is that this is ALL about saving the Smith farm and preventing Joseph from being arrested again for using the seer stone. They ALL wrote it! Joseph would then read from the hat! No dictating here at all...the reason he would ask for things to read back was to ensure it was matching what was written...multiple author voices going on here...one for Lucy, one Joseph Sr., one for Hyrum and one for Joseph Jr...further evidence of starting over after the 116 pages were lost - who would want to put all that back in the hat and the likely burned the originals so they would be caught...given ole Joe more credit than he deserves...he was patsy for the family con...The great illusion here is that this really NOT a spiritual story...it's an economical one...Hyrum was WAY, WAY, WAY smarter than his brother...
His comment on the Jesus resurrection is really a false dichotomy. It ignores a ton of information (like how Roman's typically threw crucified people into mass graves, not tombs )and all the other ways that that story could have gone. Just saying.
Ethiopia is mentioned in the New Testament.
I had what I call a "Life During Life" experience and I can tell you this much. It worked for me. BTW you are in eternity right now. Time doesn't exist. "Infinity" is a mathematical construct and it has been figured out. AND there are 4 versions so which one do you want to use? Doesn't matter eternity has no time, and NO gravity.
Wait till you get there. It's beyond imagination. There weren't, aren't and never will be words to describe it so I anit gonna try.
One question I have is; Was I sent back or was I pulled back? HUMMM....
So if your eyes are here and you are in the celestial kingdom how do you see?
You ears are here and you can hear.
It seems like you are standing on the ground and there isn't one.
There are no crosses being worn, no UFO's on heads, screen doors on woman faces so how does that work?
Yer not naked but you didn't bring clothes with you.
No one has money. Or CRYPTO!! Techies from DWORK'N!!
You feel so wonderful but you didn't bring your nerves or chemicals with you.
It's not explainable.
Just a thought...the scriptures are a map to get home. But ya might want to follow the rules...just say'n...
Either way, I can try and describe something what it's like with this...When you see a new little child run up to their mom and dad and want a hug and they do a team hug and that smile the child has is PERFECT and you can almost see the love bursting from them, It's like that X a TRILLION X a TRILLION X a TRILLION X a TRILLION X just to start with. Just AMAZING!!
The teachings are true and they are waiting patiently for you to get back home so try your best and OH MY GOODNESS!! Wait till you get there!! Just don't get into the FAST LANE!! HA!!
Also there are a LOT of frauds on YT and such where people say they had a life after death, near death experience etc...there is one idiot that has a "Lizard Breath" character, a cookie party and the history channel in hell so watch out for that idiot. And if they even mention time...FRAUD...they say "This happened" and then they use a scripture to validate it...FRAUD...there is NO WAY to describe it. And they have plugs in their "Testimony" about their book they wrote...FRAUD...and say that Satan took them on a tour of heaven...UHH...Yer WHAT hurts?!?!? Last time I Checked..Yep just checked...Satan was thrown out to never return so how does that work?!?!