"It can be lunchtime 'in here' - if you and I decide it's lunchtime." "The truth is fluid; the truth is subjective." "You fought the Minbari. The Minbari were the enemy. That was the truth. Then one day someone decided that the Minbari were no longer the enemy. And that was the truth."
"What is true is not always right, and whatever you believe about gravity, if a brick falls on your head you can say for yourself what you believe in."
I agree, he’s playing a man who goes through SO much in just four years, constant turmoil, conflict and stress, giving of himself in selfless ways more than any one person should have to do. He still always wears his heart on his sleeve, keeps his integrity, fights for worker bees, and tries to make the right decisions-and they’re rarely easy ones. That kind of responsibility is such a heavy burden. I would have gone insane if I were him...
2:47 _"Well you can't have a corned beef sandwich for breakfast, it would upset your stomach. Corned beef sandwiches are for lunch. If it's morning you can't have it. If it's lunchtime, you can. Is it lunchtime?"_ The interrogator does this several times throughout the episode (i.e. asking if Sheridan's second-in-command is Ivonova, even though Earth almost certainly knows that she is). The point of this exercise is to see how willing Sheridan is to make small concessions. If he is, they can try something more outrageous (the ultimate goal being to have him sign the "confession.") I also like the interrogator's little speech just before he leaves: _"You know, about that sandwich, captain ... it's a funny thing about toxins. I've always felt that if you eat a little poison every day, you get used to it. It desensitizes you until you can swallow large amounts of it with no difficulty whatsoever. I've always thought that that was a metaphor. I could just never decide what for."_ And I thought, "That's a metaphor for YOU. You completely bought into your government's BS, probably through the same slow process, believing in the little lies they told you until you could swallow whoppers with no problem at all. And now you're a True Believer."
I thought so too, at first, it is the most obvious inference (the 1984 references are about as thick as a sack of bricks, what Ministry of Peace? Ministry of Love? Come on JMS at least you could've changed the names I assume people still have copies of 1984 in B5!) But the interrogator actually says something close to the truth near the end of the interrogation. You and I both know this confession is lies. But Clark needs you to sign it so that he could bolster his own political agenda (he even admits they're roping in an unrelated senator who made the mistake of annoying Clark). Now, if you sign, of course they'll kill you, but you'll have some measure of comfort like Winston from 1984, but if you don't sign, you remain in here as we try worse and worse interrogation techniques on you, until in the end you are forgotten. The interrogator, whether he believes Clark's lies, believes something else. He believes that the Truth does not matter, first, and second that he can't do anything about it. He's only doing a job, that's how he rationalizes it at night. He knows he's expendable, he says as much, and the moment he steps out of line it's probably over for him. He knows the truth, some of the realfacts as opposed to goodfacts, and while at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if he's kept in line through love or fear, that last fact is perhaps the scariest of all. That Clark doesn't need to touch hearts and minds to win. He's already won (as long as he doesn't wake up sleeping giants). In the real world, if there isn't a coup, he'd probably die in his bed and live to a ripe old age of 90.
Banana, your arrogance and ignorance are astounding. JMS is Polish/Russian yet you presume that he NEEDS TO READ ORWELL to know anything about say the NKVD, its interrogation techniques , the false confessions and the show trials! Orwell's and Koestner's ( DARKNESS AT NOON ) famous books were based on OUR TRUE HORROR STORIES- not the other way around. You're truly unbelievable.
Oh, my dearest teach, if you're reading this drivel- THIS racism, gaslighting and lying is precisely why I'm a Donbass Reb and not a Loyalist! REMEMBER THE VOLYN MASSACRE!
"Look it doesn't matter if it's the truth; what matters is whether or not they can sell it to the public. You're a war hero. The problem is when a war hero starts doing and saying certain things, people have a tendency to listen. They think, 'Maybe there's something to this.' Your credibility is a threat to their credibility. One of them's got to go."
I think JMS said he wanted the guy to just be a regular guy. Someone who could be your neighbor or co-worker. But I think that's the scary thing about members of the Nazi party. Pretty much everyone of them was a regular guy, they weren't monsters. They were regular people who did terrible things...
@@DrownedInExile And we've found our fascist in the thread. Of course, there might well have been some fascists at the US capitol a few weeks ago. Almost certainly there were. Anyone that wants to put a boot on someone else's throat tends to be a fascist once you scratch the surface. Only another fascist would see every opportunity to denounce his enemies as fascists. Only a fascist would be looking for throats that need boots on them. Like for example, someone who supported the idiots at the capitol almost certainly would have followed up to the above post by pointing out the things he thought ordinary people did that were nefarious, denouncing them. He might very well be right. But that doesn't matter so much as the thought process that got him to say it. You just happened to get your word in first. And so, you joined the refrain of the very sort people you like to think you are not. But you are only the mirror image.
_"You know, about that sandwich, Captain . . . it's a funny thing about toxins. I've always felt that if you eat a little poison every day, you'll get used to it. It desensitizes you until you can swallow large amounts of it with no difficulty whatsoever. I've always thought that that was a metaphor. I could just never decide what for."_ It's a metaphor for propaganda in general but the interrogator might not realize that the metaphor applies to himself, as well. Over the years, he's swallowed small amounts of government propaganda and now he's desensitized to the point where he can justify torturing people.
I haven’t seen this episode in a while, but I believe the integrator makes it clear that he’s just as expendable as everyone else. Though, I suspect most guys like him secretly believe that they’ll be the exception to the rule.
One of the greatest television episodes ever regardless of the series! No CGI, no great battles, no multiple characters playing off each other. Just two people in a room talking and interacting with each other in a highly psychological contest. Alfred Hitchcock would be proud!
''I know they haven't fed you since you got here, that's at least two days...besides, it's lunch time!'' Never trust how long your captor says you've been in their captivity or what time of day they say it is. EVER.
This episode always revealed to me that 'Evil' won't just be encountered in the form of some dictator like Stalin, Hitler, Mao, or Pol Pot, or even a murderer like Charles Manson, but can be met in any form. Even that of an accountant.
I used to watch the wonder years with my mother a lot.... Then I started a rewatch of Babylon 5 once I had the whole set on DVD. When this episode came on I lurched forward in my chair at the site of the principal from the wonder years... Holy crap!
Yup. The banal face of evil. Villains aren't always obvious mustache-twirlers. They're the guys who check off names on lists and who are "just following orders." It's all in a day's work for them.
I thought it was kind of strange, like an intermission. It's nearly all just talk. And what do they get from it? He doesn't agree to their confession. They have to keep him drugged up during the next episode, and he doesn't seem to reveal secrets.
Ah, the "inquisitor". Twisting every aspect of the interrogation till the subject is so confused they're not even sure of their own name. Here is the drama, the true battle, waged between two persons from opposite sides locked in a life and death struggle... of ideology. And there's also a sandwich.
Raye Birk playing opposite Bruce Boxleitner was excellent in this episode. As an amateur actor myself, I hope to one day pull off a performance like his. Sinister yet truly approachable.
a show of normal interrogation tactics, and psychological torture techniques. make them off balance make them say yes to simple things so they will say yes to the important ones. wear them down to the point they will do anything to get back to normal.
@crowtservo: Wow, I didn't realize that when I first saw this. It makes sense. What I got out of it was that the interrogator was someone who had bowed down to a dictator. Someone who had sold out his principles. Sheridan was different because he had taken a principled stand and would not bow down. That was their contrast. It is congruent with what you said.
Once upon a time I ate corned beef sandwiches. But after going for pastrami as a substitute for so many years, when I went to try corned beef, it just wasn't the same.
B5 is not subtle, and in the end the interrogator basically admits it: "of course it's a lie, but what are you going to do about it? "We're going to use you to bring down the resistance (plus this other unrelated senator, because it's convenient) and the public will buy it." Sheridan had only two choices; either stall out the interrogation, or concede. Either way, he had lost, the very moment he was brought into detention. If Sheridan wasn't rescued in a surprise operation, he probably would've ended up like Na'Toth on Centauri Prime. Forgotten and filed away somewhere never to be found. They'd keep him there like the Guantanamo Bay prisoners until he's old and gray, and nobody even knows why he's in there anymore, but the sheer force of bureaucratic inertia keeping him there. Clark may have declared himself dictator, but he is still mortal, and when he is dead, like Sulla, people will slowly begin picking up the pieces of the EA again unless another coup happens.
@kival71 I entirely agree on both points. Furthermore, one of my favourite episodes of Stargate SG-1 is Abyss, where Jack is tortured and interrogated by Ba'al. I notice a strange trend...
I watch this scene every St. Patrick's Day, with a corned beef sandwich (with brown mustard with the seeds, but not too much), although mine doesn't make me vomit.
they would manipulative his responses to a negative light to see regardless of situation , that their was the assumption of guilt regardless of circumstances or the whole situation.
@proadmin1: Damn right, proadmin1. What price will you pay; how much suffering will you endure - in order to uphold your principles. It is an issue which is covered in the military code of conduct - under captivity, I will make no statements disloyal to my country. Some Vietnam War POWs endured torture rather than denounce America's role in the war.
I think this was taken from the best episode of B5. And the whole episode took place in that one interrogation room. Much the same, I think the best ST:TNG episode was when Picard was interrogated by the Cardassian... "THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!"
Anyone ever notice that this is almost the exact same as the scene with the Psychologist in The Changeling? You can't out talk a Psychologist, don't, even, try!
Best line of dialog ever written for a TV Series. I so much like this episode..it is simply great! "I know the Drazi, thex bend but they do not break...." And the lines you quoted are so great!
Eventually he was taken in the night by men wearing strange robes and a large green badge. He spent a quality year at a base on Minbar and received training and instruction on truth and enlightenment. He returned to Earth a much changed man.
Too many shows degenerated along with the ethical lapses in recent US history, but here JMS made simply eating a sandwich a sadistic exercise. Brilliant stuff, very much like Picard's trip to Celtris 3.
the ethical lapses occur among liberals who claim to be anti-fascist yet act exactly like fascists. then again the fascists came from liberal ideology.
@Danny77uk Well I wouldn't say no character development 7 of 9 had some and the DS9 crew did have quite a bit in the final two seasons when the war started and they stopped hitting the reset button and events did carry over from one episode to the next... Babylon 5 was continuing from the start and is a much better show in that aspect I agree. But ST still had quite a few well done episodes.
I'm the kinda guy that eats seafood or soup for breakfast regularly so I'd have a real issue with the whole "you can't have a corned beef sandwich for breakfast" propaganda.
@PetiteOzma Not really. None of the ST series had any real character development. And every episode had a reset button so we knew that no-matter what happened to the major characters, they would be ok.
@kival71 It may seem the same, cause the creator of B5 pitched it originally to CBS and Paramount and CBS didn't like the idea. Thankfully Warner listened for once, and the rumor is that Paramount copied Michael's idea and used it for Star Trek TNG Episodes and for the idea of ST: DS9
I like to imagine a short story scenario, where President Sheridan has the rangers do a top secret mission: "rendition" this interrogator off to some backwater barely-habitable planet. Sheridan personally confronts him. He's scared shitless, screaming that he has rights. Sheridan silences him, and remarks, "You once said we were all expandable. That's more true of you than ever, and worse. You are inconvenient. You are someone Earthdome would love to forget ever existed. They can't risk embarrassment by putting you on trial. But if you were to quietly disappear, no one would care, no one would question. And that brings you to me. I can't put you on trial either. The ISA can't afford the political blowback. But I can't let you escape consequences for your actions either. So, I do the only convenient thing I can do. Every government throughout history has had its gulags. Secret prisons. I was a guest in yours. Now you are a guest of mine. I always thought the ISA would be different, but appears I was wrong. This planet is uninhabited and remote. There is no water or anything remotely edible for miles. Your only escape is death. But please accept this gift. (Sheridan drops a box on the ground). The gift of choice. Goodbye Mr. Interrogator." With that, Sheridan boards his shuttle and leaves for good. The Interrogator cautiously opens the box. In it he finds a bottle of whiskey, a presumably-poisoned corned beef sandwich, and the "choice": a PPG pistol with a single charge.
@Danny77uk There are a few good Dark Cerberal Star Trek episodes, some in the later DS9 eps... the Four Lights one... they're all good but this one takes the cake.
@RepublicOfVietnam hahah this alone made me eat mustard for the first time.. and i had it with corned beef.. and now im hooked to mustard.. this was about 12 years ago hahaha
the sad thing is even though it is a simple question Have u ever been influenced by other people? If he had even said yes as a person exposed to an environment, you r exposed to people and views and situations that makes u revealuate a situation, they would have distorted a simple answer such as that as to make it seem as guilt to be influenced by a person, without the full spectrum of the situation or the events that caused the response to a situation where it be right or wrong...
Imagination and creativity and innovation and technology burns and consideration and refugees huddling not, both behavior proper manner, of purpose. Trained of record.
I would think 500 or a thousand years into the future interrogation would not be necessary as you could simply create a fake video interpretation or whatever you want the subject to say. However if you're a mean bastard you would torture someone anyway
The trick is, torture is never necessary. Again and again it has proven ineffectual-even if you 'break' someone, they will just say whatever they think you want to hear, whatever will make the pain stop. In the hypothetical "one hour until a nuke explodes" scenario, all the bomber has to do is stall, lie, until that hour is up. But, high-functioning sadists and abusers can be oh so persuasive, especially to those who think that strength is measured in might and action and war and pain. Thus we get the fiction that no, all these "enhanced interrogation techniques" are necessary, vital, for security and safety... and besides, everyone else is doing it, far worse regimes have their own black sites, so wouldn't it be so terrible if we were to deprive ourselves of such tools? Gee, even the good guys have to get their hands dirty so little Timmy can go to bed safe and snug without a thousand bloodthirsty barbarians breaking into his room the very second we let our guards down and get soft... Quite the web of lies that truly evil people (whether actively malicious or 'just following orders') have set up to keep people from seeing predators in their midst.
In the episode this is explained, they want Sheridan broken like Winston in 1984 so they can parade him around as a warning to others and proof that no one can beat their system.
Boxleitner was a real letdown from O'Hare but I understand why the latter quit the show. Better a new CO than to scrap the entire show. Still Sheridan never really had the gravitas of Sinclair, nor the depth and complexity.
At the time they said O'Hare was replaced with someone who was more suited to an action hero role, though it turned out that he was also very ill, so maybe that was the reason.
There was no plot, it was just these guys sitting there with clichéd dialog and then we got a rather uninteresting ending. I hear Straczynski thought "Grey 17 Is Missing" was bad and that he wanted to apologize to the fans for it, but this episode was much worse.
LOL. People don't seem to know what sociopathy really is - as evidenced by the most obvious sociopath in America going under the radar: President Donald Trump. Why don't you channel Trump and complete the online Sociopath Test: 0eb.com/index_psychopath.html (for the record I score 3 out of 40 for myself - so you go ahead and diagnose yourself and Trump - the checklist is like reading about Trump). I emphatize just fine, but not all TV appeals to me. I have just seen things done so much better than this episode, and that ending was pretty obvious if you ask me. Seen it all before, and better. Straczynski's writing is generally much better than this, and he is a much better writer than Boxleitner is an actor. No, this episode doesn't work for me - it is the one that sticks out in my mind as the worst B5 I ever saw.
Are you taking this a bit too far you think? I dislike a B5 episode, and you instantly label me a sociopath :-). That's just far out man! It is hilarious to be honest. I answered you in a similar fashion is what I did, without any name calling I might add. I never assumed you live in the US either. Guys! Remember! Everyone who doesn't like this episode is a sociopath! Just sayin'!
That's what you did in your answer above. It is a riddle to me how you can make such a big deal out of me not liking this B5 episode. And your baseless accusations of all kinds are just baffling: I am a sociopath, I am "utter arrogance", I am intellectually dishonest? Just deal with the fact that not everone likes the same things you do.
"It can be lunchtime 'in here' - if you and I decide it's lunchtime." "The truth is fluid; the truth is subjective."
"You fought the Minbari. The Minbari were the enemy. That was the truth. Then one day someone decided that the Minbari were no longer the enemy. And that was the truth."
"What is true is not always right, and whatever you believe about gravity, if a brick falls on your head you can say for yourself what you believe in."
Boxleitner's work on B5 is underrated. He had a huge, emotionally demanding arc over the course of the show, and he handled it with style.
I agree, he’s playing a man who goes through SO much in just four years, constant turmoil, conflict and stress, giving of himself in selfless ways more than any one person should have to do. He still always wears his heart on his sleeve, keeps his integrity, fights for worker bees, and tries to make the right decisions-and they’re rarely easy ones. That kind of responsibility is such a heavy burden. I would have gone insane if I were him...
I like Sinclair more, but Sheridan ist not bad either.
2:47 _"Well you can't have a corned beef sandwich for breakfast, it would upset your stomach. Corned beef sandwiches are for lunch. If it's morning you can't have it. If it's lunchtime, you can. Is it lunchtime?"_
The interrogator does this several times throughout the episode (i.e. asking if Sheridan's second-in-command is Ivonova, even though Earth almost certainly knows that she is). The point of this exercise is to see how willing Sheridan is to make small concessions. If he is, they can try something more outrageous (the ultimate goal being to have him sign the "confession.")
I also like the interrogator's little speech just before he leaves:
_"You know, about that sandwich, captain ... it's a funny thing about toxins. I've always felt that if you eat a little poison every day, you get used to it. It desensitizes you until you can swallow large amounts of it with no difficulty whatsoever. I've always thought that that was a metaphor. I could just never decide what for."_
And I thought, "That's a metaphor for YOU. You completely bought into your government's BS, probably through the same slow process, believing in the little lies they told you until you could swallow whoppers with no problem at all. And now you're a True Believer."
I thought so too, at first, it is the most obvious inference (the 1984 references are about as thick as a sack of bricks, what Ministry of Peace? Ministry of Love? Come on JMS at least you could've changed the names I assume people still have copies of 1984 in B5!)
But the interrogator actually says something close to the truth near the end of the interrogation.
You and I both know this confession is lies. But Clark needs you to sign it so that he could bolster his own political agenda (he even admits they're roping in an unrelated senator who made the mistake of annoying Clark). Now, if you sign, of course they'll kill you, but you'll have some measure of comfort like Winston from 1984, but if you don't sign, you remain in here as we try worse and worse interrogation techniques on you, until in the end you are forgotten.
The interrogator, whether he believes Clark's lies, believes something else. He believes that the Truth does not matter, first, and second that he can't do anything about it. He's only doing a job, that's how he rationalizes it at night. He knows he's expendable, he says as much, and the moment he steps out of line it's probably over for him. He knows the truth, some of the realfacts as opposed to goodfacts, and while at the end of the day, it doesn't really matter if he's kept in line through love or fear, that last fact is perhaps the scariest of all. That Clark doesn't need to touch hearts and minds to win. He's already won (as long as he doesn't wake up sleeping giants). In the real world, if there isn't a coup, he'd probably die in his bed and live to a ripe old age of 90.
THERE ARE *FOUR* LIGHTS !!!🏴☠🏴☠🏴☠
If you sign you can no longer annoy the hell out of them by REFUSING to sign. And all the fun in your life is just gone. What a horrible thought.
Banana, your arrogance and ignorance are astounding. JMS is Polish/Russian yet you presume that he NEEDS TO READ ORWELL to know anything about say the NKVD, its interrogation techniques , the false confessions and the show trials! Orwell's and Koestner's ( DARKNESS AT NOON ) famous books were based on OUR TRUE HORROR STORIES- not the other way around. You're truly unbelievable.
Oh, my dearest teach, if you're reading this drivel- THIS racism, gaslighting and lying is precisely why I'm a Donbass Reb and not a Loyalist! REMEMBER THE VOLYN MASSACRE!
You know, the guy who played the interrogator did an _excellent_ job.
Bruce is a great actor. The way he says "I'm sure it's lunchtime somewhere".... superb.
"Look it doesn't matter if it's the truth; what matters is whether or not they can sell it to the public. You're a war hero. The problem is when a war hero starts doing and saying certain things, people have a tendency to listen. They think, 'Maybe there's something to this.' Your credibility is a threat to their credibility. One of them's got to go."
Why can't you just kill me without lecturing and pontificating??? Oh, the Blake Association! 🤣
Name, Rank, Serial Number.
That's it. That's all you say.
Every time
There's a blooper take from this episode where Bruce is doing a hilarious imitation of the "french fried po-taters" speech from "Sling Blade"
I think JMS said he wanted the guy to just be a regular guy. Someone who could be your neighbor or co-worker. But I think that's the scary thing about members of the Nazi party. Pretty much everyone of them was a regular guy, they weren't monsters. They were regular people who did terrible things...
"Mass murder conducted by glorified accountants."
Banality of evil.
@@Tounushi Another words people with no consciounce
Truer words were never spoken. How many "regular" people tried to assault the US capitol 3 weeks ago?
@@DrownedInExile And we've found our fascist in the thread. Of course, there might well have been some fascists at the US capitol a few weeks ago. Almost certainly there were. Anyone that wants to put a boot on someone else's throat tends to be a fascist once you scratch the surface.
Only another fascist would see every opportunity to denounce his enemies as fascists. Only a fascist would be looking for throats that need boots on them.
Like for example, someone who supported the idiots at the capitol almost certainly would have followed up to the above post by pointing out the things he thought ordinary people did that were nefarious, denouncing them. He might very well be right. But that doesn't matter so much as the thought process that got him to say it.
You just happened to get your word in first.
And so, you joined the refrain of the very sort people you like to think you are not. But you are only the mirror image.
@@celebrim1 Aaaand the gold medal for mental gymnastics goes to you!
_"You know, about that sandwich, Captain . . . it's a funny thing about toxins. I've always felt that if you eat a little poison every day, you'll get used to it. It desensitizes you until you can swallow large amounts of it with no difficulty whatsoever. I've always thought that that was a metaphor. I could just never decide what for."_
It's a metaphor for propaganda in general but the interrogator might not realize that the metaphor applies to himself, as well. Over the years, he's swallowed small amounts of government propaganda and now he's desensitized to the point where he can justify torturing people.
Fox news....
No it's part of his narrative that Sheridan hasn't noticed that he's being controlled by aliens influence.
I haven’t seen this episode in a while, but I believe the integrator makes it clear that he’s just as expendable as everyone else. Though, I suspect most guys like him secretly believe that they’ll be the exception to the rule.
One of the greatest television episodes ever regardless of the series! No CGI, no great battles, no multiple characters playing off each other. Just two people in a room talking and interacting with each other in a highly psychological contest. Alfred Hitchcock would be proud!
''I know they haven't fed you since you got here, that's at least two days...besides, it's lunch time!'' Never trust how long your captor says you've been in their captivity or what time of day they say it is. EVER.
This episode always revealed to me that 'Evil' won't just be encountered in the form of some dictator like Stalin, Hitler, Mao, or Pol Pot, or even a murderer like Charles Manson, but can be met in any form. Even that of an accountant.
I used to watch the wonder years with my mother a lot.... Then I started a rewatch of Babylon 5 once I had the whole set on DVD. When this episode came on I lurched forward in my chair at the site of the principal from the wonder years... Holy crap!
There is no difference between a sadist who tortures for fun and a some who just does it for a living.
@Asher Tye I don't know about that. The professional is less likely to torture you just for fun.
Yup. The banal face of evil. Villains aren't always obvious mustache-twirlers. They're the guys who check off names on lists and who are "just following orders." It's all in a day's work for them.
@@Asher_Tye There is a difference, one will stop when he isn't being paid to do it.
This was an absolutely incredible episode, truly brilliant. One of the best ever in B5.
I thought it was kind of strange, like an intermission. It's nearly all just talk. And what do they get from it? He doesn't agree to their confession. They have to keep him drugged up during the next episode, and he doesn't seem to reveal secrets.
How many lights do you see?
Not many got the reference apparently, but I did. Good one.
THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!!!
2+2 is 4 or 5 or even 3 If thats What the party says
😂👍
I’m sure there are five lights somewhere.
Ah, the "inquisitor". Twisting every aspect of the interrogation till the subject is so confused they're not even sure of their own name. Here is the drama, the true battle, waged between two persons from opposite sides locked in a life and death struggle... of ideology. And there's also a sandwich.
Raye Birk playing opposite Bruce Boxleitner was excellent in this episode. As an amateur actor myself, I hope to one day pull off a performance like his. Sinister yet truly approachable.
I am watching this, and I am eating a corned beef sandwich with Mustard, no poison.
How do you know it's not poisoned? Maybe it is, just in small amounts :)
I love corn beef too but this
interrogator really sells it wirh the mustard bit he mentions and how we are all influenced by the world 😊
a show of normal interrogation tactics, and psychological torture techniques.
make them off balance
make them say yes to simple things so they will say yes to the important ones.
wear them down to the point they will do anything to get back to normal.
No. This is so out of date. They're a lot more barbaric/sophisticated when it comes to psychological torture.
@crowtservo: Wow, I didn't realize that when I first saw this. It makes sense. What I got out of it was that the interrogator was someone who had bowed down to a dictator. Someone who had sold out his principles. Sheridan was different because he had taken a principled stand and would not bow down. That was their contrast. It is congruent with what you said.
@perfectsplit Exactly, perfect assessment.
If Sheridan only had a jar full of roaches, this interrogator would have crumbled.
This is actually my favourite episode, it's just so f'ing good! I think my favourite B5 bit has to be the liberation of Proxima III
How did he fall apart? Don't you remember the "everytime i say no" bit? He held out until the end.
every time the interrogator walked into the room I had to think of Monty Python...
"Good morning! *rings a tiny bell*"
funny how well the psychology works in this ep... I always want that poisoned sandwich every time I see it! LOL XD
this episode totally made me love to eat corned beef sandwiches, one of the best b5 episodes of all time
Once upon a time I ate corned beef sandwiches. But after going for pastrami as a substitute for so many years, when I went to try corned beef, it just wasn't the same.
B5 is not subtle, and in the end the interrogator basically admits it:
"of course it's a lie, but what are you going to do about it?
"We're going to use you to bring down the resistance (plus this other unrelated senator, because it's convenient) and the public will buy it."
Sheridan had only two choices; either stall out the interrogation, or concede. Either way, he had lost, the very moment he was brought into detention.
If Sheridan wasn't rescued in a surprise operation, he probably would've ended up like Na'Toth on Centauri Prime. Forgotten and filed away somewhere never to be found. They'd keep him there like the Guantanamo Bay prisoners until he's old and gray, and nobody even knows why he's in there anymore, but the sheer force of bureaucratic inertia keeping him there.
Clark may have declared himself dictator, but he is still mortal, and when he is dead, like Sulla, people will slowly begin picking up the pieces of the EA again unless another coup happens.
This B5 scene and the "Chain of command" interrogation scene from ST:TNG are some of my 1984 inspired favourites.
One of the best episodes of any show. I think about this episode fairly often ha.
@kival71 I entirely agree on both points. Furthermore, one of my favourite episodes of Stargate SG-1 is Abyss, where Jack is tortured and interrogated by Ba'al. I notice a strange trend...
I watch this scene every St. Patrick's Day, with a corned beef sandwich (with brown mustard with the seeds, but not too much), although mine doesn't make me vomit.
He was sorry he ate that.
Room 17 = Room 101
this is my favorite episode
they would manipulative his responses to a negative light to see regardless of situation , that their was the assumption of guilt regardless of circumstances or the whole situation.
Everytime I watch this I wanna corned beef sandwich with Mustard, no poison.
@proadmin1: Damn right, proadmin1. What price will you pay; how much suffering will you endure - in order to uphold your principles. It is an issue which is covered in the military code of conduct - under captivity, I will make no statements disloyal to my country. Some Vietnam War POWs endured torture rather than denounce America's role in the war.
I think this was taken from the best episode of B5. And the whole episode took place in that one interrogation room.
Much the same, I think the best ST:TNG episode was when Picard was interrogated by the Cardassian... "THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!"
The ST version has nothing on this one
I reckon he did no git the memo from G'KAR on how ta beat Interrogation?
Boxleitner did an Awesome job fer B5.
Amazed that Sheridan was played so easily. I guess a couple days without food would make one pretty dull around the edges.
there was lots more disorientation effects going on
Anyone ever notice that this is almost the exact same as the scene with the Psychologist in The Changeling?
You can't out talk a Psychologist, don't, even, try!
Best line of dialog ever written for a TV Series.
I so much like this episode..it is simply great!
"I know the Drazi, thex bend but they do not break...."
And the lines you quoted are so great!
Eventually he was taken in the night by men wearing strange robes and a large green badge. He spent a quality year at a base on Minbar and received training and instruction on truth and enlightenment. He returned to Earth a much changed man.
Too many shows degenerated along with the ethical lapses in recent US history, but here JMS made simply eating a sandwich a sadistic exercise. Brilliant stuff, very much like Picard's trip to Celtris 3.
the ethical lapses occur among liberals who claim to be anti-fascist yet act exactly like fascists. then again the fascists came from liberal ideology.
@@toomanyaccounts Total nonsense.
@@DrownedInExile nope it is history. fascism came from liberals
@@toomanyaccounts 🤣
@@DrownedInExile pick up a history book written about the founding of Italian fascism. It came from liberals
@Danny77uk Well I wouldn't say no character development 7 of 9 had some and the DS9 crew did have quite a bit in the final two seasons when the war started and they stopped hitting the reset button and events did carry over from one episode to the next... Babylon 5 was continuing from the start and is a much better show in that aspect I agree. But ST still had quite a few well done episodes.
spoiler alert
the sandwich was excellent
Ah the infamous sandwich torture. Outlawed on civilised worlds across the galaxy yet still used by law enforcement.
I'm the kinda guy that eats seafood or soup for breakfast regularly so I'd have a real issue with the whole "you can't have a corned beef sandwich for breakfast" propaganda.
Hello Mr. Pepshmire!
@PetiteOzma Not really. None of the ST series had any real character development. And every episode had a reset button so we knew that no-matter what happened to the major characters, they would be ok.
@kival71 It may seem the same, cause the creator of B5 pitched it originally to CBS and Paramount and CBS didn't like the idea. Thankfully Warner listened for once, and the rumor is that Paramount copied Michael's idea and used it for Star Trek TNG Episodes and for the idea of ST: DS9
Sorry, no. You can't copy genius- and JMS is a frigging genius.
This video made me hungry
Poison is the best part. But it does make me want water with salts.
I like to imagine a short story scenario, where President Sheridan has the rangers do a top secret mission: "rendition" this interrogator off to some backwater barely-habitable planet. Sheridan personally confronts him. He's scared shitless, screaming that he has rights.
Sheridan silences him, and remarks, "You once said we were all expandable. That's more true of you than ever, and worse. You are inconvenient. You are someone Earthdome would love to forget ever existed. They can't risk embarrassment by putting you on trial. But if you were to quietly disappear, no one would care, no one would question. And that brings you to me. I can't put you on trial either. The ISA can't afford the political blowback. But I can't let you escape consequences for your actions either. So, I do the only convenient thing I can do.
Every government throughout history has had its gulags. Secret prisons. I was a guest in yours. Now you are a guest of mine. I always thought the ISA would be different, but appears I was wrong. This planet is uninhabited and remote. There is no water or anything remotely edible for miles. Your only escape is death. But please accept this gift. (Sheridan drops a box on the ground). The gift of choice. Goodbye Mr. Interrogator."
With that, Sheridan boards his shuttle and leaves for good. The Interrogator cautiously opens the box. In it he finds a bottle of whiskey, a presumably-poisoned corned beef sandwich, and the "choice": a PPG pistol with a single charge.
Sorry. We don't " rendition " people. We're not the CIA.
need sandwich now
@Danny77uk There are a few good Dark Cerberal Star Trek episodes, some in the later DS9 eps... the Four Lights one... they're all good but this one takes the cake.
@RepublicOfVietnam hahah this alone made me eat mustard for the first time.. and i had it with corned beef.. and now im hooked to mustard.. this was about 12 years ago hahaha
The horror of banality.
the sad thing is even though it is a simple question
Have u ever been influenced by other people?
If he had even said yes as a person exposed to an environment, you r exposed to people and views and situations that makes u revealuate a situation, they would have distorted a simple answer such as that as to make it seem as guilt to be influenced by a person, without the full spectrum of the situation or the events that caused the response to a situation where it be right or wrong...
@RepublicOfVietnam What is corned beef?
Spoiler.
It's poisoned.
everything is poison. drink several gallons of water in a 24 hour period and you will die from it.
Imagination and creativity and innovation and technology burns and consideration and refugees huddling not, both behavior proper manner, of purpose. Trained of record.
@MultiKronblom Salt Cured Beef.
I would think 500 or a thousand years into the future interrogation would not be necessary as you could simply create a fake video interpretation or whatever you want the subject to say. However if you're a mean bastard you would torture someone anyway
The trick is, torture is never necessary. Again and again it has proven ineffectual-even if you 'break' someone, they will just say whatever they think you want to hear, whatever will make the pain stop. In the hypothetical "one hour until a nuke explodes" scenario, all the bomber has to do is stall, lie, until that hour is up.
But, high-functioning sadists and abusers can be oh so persuasive, especially to those who think that strength is measured in might and action and war and pain. Thus we get the fiction that no, all these "enhanced interrogation techniques" are necessary, vital, for security and safety... and besides, everyone else is doing it, far worse regimes have their own black sites, so wouldn't it be so terrible if we were to deprive ourselves of such tools? Gee, even the good guys have to get their hands dirty so little Timmy can go to bed safe and snug without a thousand bloodthirsty barbarians breaking into his room the very second we let our guards down and get soft...
Quite the web of lies that truly evil people (whether actively malicious or 'just following orders') have set up to keep people from seeing predators in their midst.
In the episode this is explained, they want Sheridan broken like Winston in 1984 so they can parade him around as a warning to others and proof that no one can beat their system.
Boxleitner was a real letdown from O'Hare but I understand why the latter quit the show. Better a new CO than to scrap the entire show. Still Sheridan never really had the gravitas of Sinclair, nor the depth and complexity.
that's absurd, Boxleitner was better in every way
At the time they said O'Hare was replaced with someone who was more suited to an action hero role, though it turned out that he was also very ill, so maybe that was the reason.
Sheridan sucks! G'Kar went through hell a hundred times worse than this and Sheridan falls apart within three days!
Sheridan never fell apart. The interegator did he was unable to break him.
I remember this as the worst Babylon 5 episode I ever saw.
There was no plot, it was just these guys sitting there with clichéd dialog and then we got a rather uninteresting ending. I hear Straczynski thought "Grey 17 Is Missing" was bad and that he wanted to apologize to the fans for it, but this episode was much worse.
LOL. People don't seem to know what sociopathy really is - as evidenced by the most obvious sociopath in America going under the radar: President Donald Trump. Why don't you channel Trump and complete the online Sociopath Test: 0eb.com/index_psychopath.html (for the record I score 3 out of 40 for myself - so you go ahead and diagnose yourself and Trump - the checklist is like reading about Trump).
I emphatize just fine, but not all TV appeals to me. I have just seen things done so much better than this episode, and that ending was pretty obvious if you ask me. Seen it all before, and better. Straczynski's writing is generally much better than this, and he is a much better writer than Boxleitner is an actor. No, this episode doesn't work for me - it is the one that sticks out in my mind as the worst B5 I ever saw.
Are you taking this a bit too far you think? I dislike a B5 episode, and you instantly label me a sociopath :-). That's just far out man! It is hilarious to be honest. I answered you in a similar fashion is what I did, without any name calling I might add. I never assumed you live in the US either.
Guys! Remember! Everyone who doesn't like this episode is a sociopath! Just sayin'!
That's what you did in your answer above. It is a riddle to me how you can make such a big deal out of me not liking this B5 episode. And your baseless accusations of all kinds are just baffling: I am a sociopath, I am "utter arrogance", I am intellectually dishonest? Just deal with the fact that not everone likes the same things you do.
glytzhkof this is the worst comment I ever saw