that would just be pretty dangerous in real world driving. Would make it a slog to pull away on any steep incline and make things such as overtaking or simply getting out of danger's way more difficult than it needs to be, and at that point why even have any form of interesting car, may as well just buy the cheapest most basic shitbox on the market with the smallest engine possible.
Humour intended. 7:25 I must say, I had an Outback that shape with the 2.5L non-turbo engine and it sure felt like 78Nm/45HP was all it had to give. (Humour still intended, litotes, specifically).
@@salvare0004 very understandable! I've done that too :) I actually wrote it as "50% throttle" to make it believable, then changed it to 20% as a call-back joke :)
Love hearing Kai get into all the fine details about the process like getting down to the cam angle and examining the fuel burn efficiency. This was an awesome learning episode. And good on ya Al for trollin Gus, you are absolutely correct, it's your right as a dad.
very interesting! the only argument i would make is that because you need roughly 30/40% more fuel volume with e85 vs p98 petrol, due to ethanol's inferior energy density. i would be very interested to see the same BSFC test of e10 vs p98 and then you could roughly calculate the cost per litre vs The L/per 100km and see if it actually is cheaper to run you car on e10. Again, not hatin, im just curious. Excellent video as always and i personally find these kinds of tests more interesting than "who can make the number bigger".
In previous years the cost savings of E10 and then calculating it out to price per L/100Kms didn't see enough of a difference to justify it, but since 98 has got more and more expensive it's widened the gap to the point where it's now become feasible to run E10. The most surprising thing here as AL pointed out is the gain in HP which also aids in the cost since less throttle is needed to make the same power again saving fuel.
Here in the the EU we started with E5 in the affordable fuel (euro 95). Last year or something euro 95 was bumped up to E10 and euro 98 to E5. Funny thing is my old Toyota yaris with 275k km on it runs more economical on E10 than it did on no ethanol added fuel. It probably has to do with old injectors or something and atomization maybe is better.
For a car I tested this on previously that could take 91 e10 needed to be >5c per litre cheaper than 91(this is pretty much never the case) for it to be better value. 98 is better again than 91 so would be interesting to know the price gap required to be efficient
E10 is a product made for people with normal cars that know nothing but want to save money at the pump. It is fine for any car made in the last 20 years. The extra fuel used in E85 is way out of the ballpark here, 10% vs 85%.
Here in the states, I did a year long test with my 98 outback. I had a 100 mile daily commute and alternated monthly between non-ethanol and E10, tracking mileage and fill-ups religiously. Ultimately, non-ethanol average mileage was 25.12 mpg / E10 was 23.63 mpg. Here E10 runs about 20 cents cheaper per US gallon but when you calculate fuel cost per mile the non-ethanol was more cost effective even though it was more expensive. As they say, "milage may vary" but for that little Subaru of mine running 80 on the interstate the more expensive non-ethanol saves me money in the long run. We have seen similar results with my wife's 2006 Honda Pilot as well.
Not bad, but you disregard the fact that here we are comparing 98 RON fuel to E10. The price difference in Australia between the two fuels is about 22c per litre (currently 157.9c/L for E10 and 179.9c/L for 98), otherwise 98 is 113.9% of the cost of E10. This video proves that correct tuning will increase, or at worst, match power with 98, save about 12% in cost of fuel and using your figures for fuel economy, only lose about 6% in range.
REALLY good episode! i'd like to see more of this on stuff with factory ECUs and what is and what isn't compatible and why *(i've heard Ethanol doesn't play well with some fuel senders and metal fuel tanks, would like to confirm this.. also hoses etc as we've heard many times)
E10 isn't too bad on older fuel systems, I've run all sorts of old shit on E10 without any issue, but it depends on what anti-corrosive agents they put in the fuel too. Anything past E30 or E40 and you start running into problems
There is a lot of misinformation about ethanol fuels. The biggest thing that can happen is when you mix an ethanol based fuel with a strictly petrol based fuel the additives can be incompatible. This can cause them to fall out of solution and build up in the tank, pump pickup, lines etc. As long as the components in the fuel system are ethanol compatible then there really isn't an issue using an ethanol fuel from the pump. I have converted my vehicle to flexfuel and have run exclusively on e85 for over a year without issues. Studies in the 80s showed that ethanol based fuels actually provide less or similar wear to petrol based fuels as well.
@@91ludesit would you agree big oil did a smear campaing a few years ago when GM and a few other manufactueres released flex flue compatible cars. My old man worked at Exxonmobil here in Adelaide and he was like the fuel is rubbish, i was like no its not its great. you just need to know its limitations and usages.
The assumption was that 10% ethanol wasn't enough to overcome the deficit of using 87 instead of 93 (NA octane ratings), and 85% was. I wouldn't say it is mind boggling, its just that most of us underestimated the effect of small quantities of ethanol.
When we put bigger turbos and a bunch of other goodies on my Woman's Legnum VR4, we stuck it on E10 as well (ours is a 95+10% corn juice mix which is then sold as a 98), and as it sits, it made 260kw to the hubs with a lot more in it on the factory ECU, no flex fuel (although TME Steve can actually do pretty creative things with the stock ECU, like launch control, flex fuel and a bunch of other things). When we had it out of town, there was no E10 available at the time, so we had to fill it with 95 and stuck 2 bottles of octane booster in it, and it still didn't want to know about it. Even on BP 98 with octane booster it still felt flat until we put 50 litres of grain alcohol 1203 back into it. But even on the E10 and making that power with 1000cc squirters (although obviously not with the skinny pedal held to the wood), the tune off boost was a hell of a lot nicer than it was with factory tuning, it felt way more polite off boost, and it made probably slightly better fuel economy, and it wasn't trying to get into boost every time I wanted to get off the traffic lights (stock TD03s came in as soon as you breathed on the throttle, the TD04-16Gs we put on didn't really do anything until 2800RPM onwards, but it could carry boost all the way to 7 grand instead of signing off at 5000RPM
I’m really glad you done this as when they released E10 in the uk I did wonder if power could increase with the higher ethanol content. Might get the car mapped with E10 instead of 99 Ron.
Excellent episode with lots of interesting information. Back in the day I ran a rolling road dyno for years tuning competition engines on mainly Weber carburettors, seeing what can be done with management is quite amazing for an old school tuner like me, thanks very much for posting these videos. 'Sausage' HT Racing Ltd
This is an awesome video. I am about to tun my tb48 patrol and I was reasonably confident that tuned properly e10 would be a great fuel. I want to put a flex fuel sensor in it so that if E10 isn't available it will reset ignition etc to suit.
All our fuel around here, regardless of octane rating, is E10... kinda hell on old lawnmowers and such. Neat thing to see someone tuning specifically for it!
Not great if you leave it sitting for months, no. Four times now I've gotten a "broken" motorised garden tool for cheap or free and fixed it just by mixing fresh fuel.
Disconnect the baffle box under the airbox, you can run 25 cm 75mm pvc gutter pipe if you like or just leave it. That will 100% solve the lack of air and will give it cold air
Very pertinent content, as most countries are having steep fuel price increases. I am also in process of tuning my car to improve economy. My dyno guy has also said that lean tunes don't necessarily mean better economy. Nice work Guys 👍
It's worth noting that the octane test systems are designed to compared petrol to petrol based fuels, and does not account for MBT versus when detonation occurs. For example, one fuel might have a MBT at 16 degrees, while another fuel might have MBT at 18 degrees, but if the first detonates at 17 degrees, and the second at 17 degrees, they would measure as THE SAME OCTANE on the rating system. But one detonated PAST MBT, and the other BEFORE. In practice, most fuels burn "close enough" that this difference doesn't matter too much, but in this example we start to see some of this impacting the real world results. Ethanol doesn't burn the same, and has a different timer to power curve and detonation properties, thus it is very difficult to make apples to apples comparison without putting something on the dyno like you have here.
Very interesting! I'm actually working on a mercedes m104 turbo build to run on e10, trying to reach the 800bhp barrier. Having almost the highest fuel prices in the world and no e85 available, there are not much other options left...
Thats very interesting! Would love to see the same done on a boosted motor so see which way the figures go once boost is involved! Keep up the good work!
I think the exhaust note sounded crisper also on e10 in the video. Definitely could hear the pull harder on the dyno. That was an eye opener for me, I would have thought e10 would have made less power. I always have avoided it due to other peoples experiences with corrosion and fuel line issues etc. Maybe my old Forrester may have appreciated it too back then?
If you’re driving a diesel you can buy cetane booster to make your own premium fuel. You can either buy it in small brand-name quantities or buy in bulk, if you look for 2-ethylhexyl nitrate. I’ve found that my engine sometimes stutters a bit when pulling from low revs but this is gone completely with a bit of cetane booster in the tank. It probably increases power and economy too but I haven’t got any numbers.
Thomas Midgley discovered that adding 10% ethanol to petrol was a very effective anti knock agent. But it was far more expensive than the equally as effective Tetraethyllead so that was used instead. Thus leaded fuel was created. Not surprised that E10 works better on something that is tuned for it
Perhaps its due to the the extra timing you can run before knock, therefore maximising efficiency. Oh yeah, thanks Thomas Midgley for the lead poisening he gave the globe.
Now this is very interesting to me. I thought i was just thinking things where different (temps, time of year, not driving for a little bit in each car) but i have had to fill up a few of times this year with E10, im in the UK btw. Anyways this is with two different cars. One is an old BMW e46 330i and another one is an old Audi TT Mk1 225 and each time i have filled these cars up with E10 ( i did check a few web pages to see if these car would be ok and they said ok, so i went with it) well i found both cars feel faster. They pull harder and are still grate fun to drive. Ive not checked to see if the MPG is any better but from the onbourd readings so far say its not any worse. Very interesting to see your findings. Thanks for the fantastic videos. Cheers.
And for the US viewers, that is $2.09 per litre not per gallon. 3.8 litres to a gallon, so around $8 per gallon, and don't forget about the conversion rate, so probably closer to $11/gallon. Oh, and by the way, the government has temporarily taken 30 cents per litre tax off the price, so $12/gallon.
This is a great video. My worked Legnum VR4 could really use some cruise tuning and this video confirmed my suspicions that Haltech et. al are the right answer. Currently running custom ROM with flex support but nothing like this.
E10 is actually pretty decent juice. If I wanna save money, I just limit my boost and run on E10. It's around 94 octane and significantly cheaper than any other similar option.
U.K., we went from 95 standard to 95 E10 still have super which varies from 97 to 100 octane. The price per litre is £1.80 per litre E10 and over £2.00 per litre super.. absolutely mental!! Most cars below 2005 aren’t E10 compatible.. Guessing the war in Russia hasn’t helped but personally think the oil companies are coining in as much as the can before everyone goes electric. Don’t think electric is the whole solution!! Very interesting episode tho, look forward to the next.
Further to my other post, i also have a 2008 GM Astra 1.8 SRi with the Z18XER dual iVVT engine. Ive done multiple dyno runs on this car just out of interest while i was tuning customers cars. I found on 95 RON E10 it actually made 4 bhp more than on 99 RON E5 Vpower. Again really surprised me. But then again the factory siemens ECU is calibrated for 95 anyway.
I've been using premium fuels in all my cars since it came out, the xr6t loves Shell V Power, followed closely buy Amplfy 98 ( Caltex 98 ), im not sure the exact recipe for Shell but compared to the rest I can feel the difference in the Xr6t. Its has to do with something called Flame Propagation, the way the flame front pushes the piston down the bore, Alchol fuels do this at a much faster rate because of the added Oxygen and Hydrogen in the mix, simple Chemistry.
Interesting to read that. I also found a 6L ls loves vpower above others. Didn't expect any difference from the BP 98 I usually run but theres definitely a noticeable difference in torque and sound. E10 was always underwhelming but I never ran it long enough for long term trims to adjust. I have a forced induction v6 that seems to love e10. But it definitely uses more. Still cheaper compared to 95 or 98.
E10 is pretty close with 98 stuff. I spent some time on a cammed v8 tuning 98 vs e10, eventually grabbing a ethernol sensor and fitting it so it'd auto switch between what became not high/low maps but e10/98 maps essentially. I did find that E10 is very violitile under temp and general driving load conditions.... so I wouldn't say it's more knock resistant that ethanol not at all. But in terms of power most applications should be within a few kw either side.
E10 is standard in the US for all octane grades AFAIK. In my area we don’t have e85 at the pump. But there’s a few motor sports company’s selling 50 gallon barrels if you want. My flex sensor only ever reports about 8.8-9.2% alcohol. So not exactly e10 but close enough.
I've been told that if you lean out the mixture at cruise you need to compensate with more ignition timing to get the torque back because a leaner mixture burns slower.
Very very interesting. In Sweden they've also gone to e10, but I've out habit been filling my subarus up with 98. Would be really interesting to do a dyno run and see what the outcome here. Drove my forester (2007 automatic, with vf48 turbo) 460km yesterday, and going a bit slower I managed to squeeze out 0.9l/10km (26 miles/gallon), a new low record for that car, which I've only had for 2months. My 2005 impreza wrx on the same journey my record is 0.73l/10km (32 miles/gallon). In the wrx I once filled it with 95 ( which was E5 at the time ) and it did not react well, could not overtake as the ecu was not having higher revs under load with that fuel.
My 4.6 litre Lexus V8 gets close to 30mpg on highway runs at 110-120km/h so would have hoped a much smaller displacement turbo engine under low load would do a lot better than that - but then I guess Subaru's do have a reputation for being gas guzzlers for a reason. Of course around town the 1UR can be a bit of a guzzler too particularly with my lead foot.
My 2000 impreza hates e10! I had to put some in to get me home and I might as well have walked! Was idling very lumpy, needed more revs to pull away and the minute I tried getting on boost it just hesitated! It's not going in my car again!
the octane rating is independent from the ethanol percentage though- at the moment all they sell here in Germany is "Super E10" and "Super E5" both 95 octane (not the same as US octane!) the "Super plus", which would be E5 98 octane isn't sold at many places- and then there is the 100/102 octane stuff- which many stations do not offer at the moment.. because it was so expensive (was 2,48€/L a few weeks ago..)
@@LostinWales If you gained anything from this video, you would have heard that just putting it in and send it isn't ideal. Have it tuned for e10 might yield a complete different outcome like they did.
oh, man that's something I'd want looked at. My 2 tonne, 4L Jaguar Sovereign gets those numbers easily. Think you might go easier on the throttle there.
I think the key here is the flex fuel sensor and the capabilities of the haltech ECU. Wonder if Al can provide us with real world fuel economy numbers in comparison to see whether doing the mods and tuning for e10 might actually be a worthwhile investment.
Economy has always been about 12l/100km around town (60-80kmh) and around 10 on the highway. It was the same when it was stock with a 5 speed auto. They are shit on fuel but the NA EJ25 is not much better and turbos are worse. Subaru life.
E10, to a lesser degree than E85 but still noticeably so, contains less energy per litre and so mileage should be worse than 98. Would be interesting to hear the actual cost difference not per litre but per 100km adjusted for fuel efficiency. PS here in Europe 98 is E5, from the sound of it that's not the case (yet) in Aus?
im a service tech and do 4000 to 6000 Km's per month. i have used a logbook app to track fuel cost and average fuel ecconomy. My Suzuki Vitara S Turbo is supposed to have 95 or higher in AUS . The Costco petrol here is 10% ethanol but they call ot 94 octane. i have been using it mostly but having to use 95 at times and even 98 depending on where i am when i get low. the car does slightly better on the costco fuel than any other and is averaging 6.2 Lt per 100 Km in fuel ecconomy over 30,000 Km's traveled highway and city combined
E98 is 0% to 5% ethanol, called e5 E95 is 5% to 10% ethanol, called e10. In the Netherlands bp has 0% ethanol in 98 and Esso has 5% ethanol in 98. Everybody that knows this goes to bp to fill a gas can for lawnmower and such.
that was my thought too! less energy-Dese = more fuelconsumption one the other Hand: less sesitive to knocking = more Power thats why all the JDM-Tuners love E85. So they can push higher boost on a high load without knocking the engine to death
Here in Germany they faded out 91 octane regular years ago in favor of 95 octane E5 super. Later they added 95 octane E10 super and most stations sell these two options next to 98 octane super+ . Bigger Shell and Aral stations also offer 100 octane ( Shell V-Power ) and even 102 octane ( Aral Ultimate ) that´s rated as E5 but is most times a non ethanol content fuel. I run my daily driver normaly on E5 95 octane and my hobby cars ( modified Celica ST185 and MR2 AW11 ) on 102 octane or at least 98 octane as the ethanol content fuels has shown chemical stabilty issues over time in the past.
I have the pleasure to find e100 on every gas station in my country. That’s why my car only got a map for e100, even though our regular gas is actually e27.
I've always said E10 is better due to ethanol burning better which creates more power now it's on film providing my point, the ethanol papers is a great read & scientific proof
Well here in Germany my Accord CU2 knocks like crazy with Super 95 E10. With Super 98 the Problem is not that bad. E85 is unfortunately nowhere available anymore
I'd say noone who saw the MTOD Engine Masters episode that covered this was surprised but it's still good to see. don't put E10 in a car that wasn't made for it though (it eats stuff)
Ethanol has less energy per liter than oil based fuels. When E85 first came out, I was buying it at $1.30 ish per liter but burning it at a rate that made 95 or 98 far more cost effective. Now E85 is more than 98 so you're definitely only buying it for the extra octane these days.
Do the same thing with lpg please gents, id love to lpg convert my car and get it tuned, plus i hear it has a higher octane rating as it burns much colder
Can any current experts comment on this please. I've recently tried exploring this path for my commodore ute (liquid injected lpg) but called right round Sydney only to find out the companies making those parts are all closed down.
Like Al's Shirt? get one here! theskidfactory.com
I'm ganna book for a e10 tune for the hako
If he really wants to save fuel, leave the max throttle limit at 20%.
that would just be pretty dangerous in real world driving. Would make it a slog to pull away on any steep incline and make things such as overtaking or simply getting out of danger's way more difficult than it needs to be, and at that point why even have any form of interesting car, may as well just buy the cheapest most basic shitbox on the market with the smallest engine possible.
Humour intended.
7:25 I must say, I had an Outback that shape with the 2.5L non-turbo engine and it sure felt like 78Nm/45HP was all it had to give.
(Humour still intended, litotes, specifically).
@@LongPeter ah fair enough! Truthfully I hadn't made it to that part of the video before I replied, doh! Carry on..
@@salvare0004 very understandable! I've done that too :)
I actually wrote it as "50% throttle" to make it believable, then changed it to 20% as a call-back joke :)
@@salvare0004 hahah sounds like driving a old 4wd
Love hearing Kai get into all the fine details about the process like getting down to the cam angle and examining the fuel burn efficiency. This was an awesome learning episode.
And good on ya Al for trollin Gus, you are absolutely correct, it's your right as a dad.
very interesting! the only argument i would make is that because you need roughly 30/40% more fuel volume with e85 vs p98 petrol, due to ethanol's inferior energy density. i would be very interested to see the same BSFC test of e10 vs p98 and then you could roughly calculate the cost per litre vs The L/per 100km and see if it actually is cheaper to run you car on e10. Again, not hatin, im just curious. Excellent video as always and i personally find these kinds of tests more interesting than "who can make the number bigger".
In previous years the cost savings of E10 and then calculating it out to price per L/100Kms didn't see enough of a difference to justify it, but since 98 has got more and more expensive it's widened the gap to the point where it's now become feasible to run E10. The most surprising thing here as AL pointed out is the gain in HP which also aids in the cost since less throttle is needed to make the same power again saving fuel.
Here in the the EU we started with E5 in the affordable fuel (euro 95). Last year or something euro 95 was bumped up to E10 and euro 98 to E5. Funny thing is my old Toyota yaris with 275k km on it runs more economical on E10 than it did on no ethanol added fuel. It probably has to do with old injectors or something and atomization maybe is better.
Someone should know the maths. But I think personally it would very minimal difference
For a car I tested this on previously that could take 91 e10 needed to be >5c per litre cheaper than 91(this is pretty much never the case) for it to be better value. 98 is better again than 91 so would be interesting to know the price gap required to be efficient
E10 is a product made for people with normal cars that know nothing but want to save money at the pump. It is fine for any car made in the last 20 years. The extra fuel used in E85 is way out of the ballpark here, 10% vs 85%.
Here in the states, I did a year long test with my 98 outback. I had a 100 mile daily commute and alternated monthly between non-ethanol and E10, tracking mileage and fill-ups religiously. Ultimately, non-ethanol average mileage was 25.12 mpg / E10 was 23.63 mpg. Here E10 runs about 20 cents cheaper per US gallon but when you calculate fuel cost per mile the non-ethanol was more cost effective even though it was more expensive. As they say, "milage may vary" but for that little Subaru of mine running 80 on the interstate the more expensive non-ethanol saves me money in the long run. We have seen similar results with my wife's 2006 Honda Pilot as well.
Not bad, but you disregard the fact that here we are comparing 98 RON fuel to E10. The price difference in Australia between the two fuels is about 22c per litre (currently 157.9c/L for E10 and 179.9c/L for 98), otherwise 98 is 113.9% of the cost of E10. This video proves that correct tuning will increase, or at worst, match power with 98, save about 12% in cost of fuel and using your figures for fuel economy, only lose about 6% in range.
REALLY good episode! i'd like to see more of this on stuff with factory ECUs and what is and what isn't compatible and why *(i've heard Ethanol doesn't play well with some fuel senders and metal fuel tanks, would like to confirm this.. also hoses etc as we've heard many times)
E10 isn't too bad on older fuel systems, I've run all sorts of old shit on E10 without any issue, but it depends on what anti-corrosive agents they put in the fuel too. Anything past E30 or E40 and you start running into problems
There is a lot of misinformation about ethanol fuels. The biggest thing that can happen is when you mix an ethanol based fuel with a strictly petrol based fuel the additives can be incompatible. This can cause them to fall out of solution and build up in the tank, pump pickup, lines etc. As long as the components in the fuel system are ethanol compatible then there really isn't an issue using an ethanol fuel from the pump. I have converted my vehicle to flexfuel and have run exclusively on e85 for over a year without issues. Studies in the 80s showed that ethanol based fuels actually provide less or similar wear to petrol based fuels as well.
@@91ludesit would you agree big oil did a smear campaing a few years ago when GM and a few other manufactueres released flex flue compatible cars.
My old man worked at Exxonmobil here in Adelaide and he was like the fuel is rubbish, i was like no its not its great. you just need to know its limitations and usages.
The amount of people who believe e10=bad e85=good is mind boggling
The assumption was that 10% ethanol wasn't enough to overcome the deficit of using 87 instead of 93 (NA octane ratings), and 85% was. I wouldn't say it is mind boggling, its just that most of us underestimated the effect of small quantities of ethanol.
@@justinlabarge8178 ethanol increases the RON to 94
@@robfaith6029 then why do they call it 88?
@@justinlabarge8178 different rating system in different countries
@@justinlabarge8178 Yours is in AKI, ours is in RON.
Finally a tuner who appreciates the atmospheric factors , minus 10c with loads of humidity that car would gain 15hp easily
When we put bigger turbos and a bunch of other goodies on my Woman's Legnum VR4, we stuck it on E10 as well (ours is a 95+10% corn juice mix which is then sold as a 98), and as it sits, it made 260kw to the hubs with a lot more in it on the factory ECU, no flex fuel (although TME Steve can actually do pretty creative things with the stock ECU, like launch control, flex fuel and a bunch of other things). When we had it out of town, there was no E10 available at the time, so we had to fill it with 95 and stuck 2 bottles of octane booster in it, and it still didn't want to know about it. Even on BP 98 with octane booster it still felt flat until we put 50 litres of grain alcohol 1203 back into it. But even on the E10 and making that power with 1000cc squirters (although obviously not with the skinny pedal held to the wood), the tune off boost was a hell of a lot nicer than it was with factory tuning, it felt way more polite off boost, and it made probably slightly better fuel economy, and it wasn't trying to get into boost every time I wanted to get off the traffic lights (stock TD03s came in as soon as you breathed on the throttle, the TD04-16Gs we put on didn't really do anything until 2800RPM onwards, but it could carry boost all the way to 7 grand instead of signing off at 5000RPM
I've been running e10 in my turbo territory for 6 months and it loves it. Great video guys
I've had 5 different car's that I've used nothing but E10 and never had a problem 2 of which were an Evo 8 and a BMW 135 M twin turbo charged
I’m really glad you done this as when they released E10 in the uk I did wonder if power could increase with the higher ethanol content. Might get the car mapped with E10 instead of 99 Ron.
Love this technical stuff with proving questions to support understanding, great vid guys 🤩
Great job boys so happy for Gus to get to go to drag week have a good time
Tuners all over Australia gonna be booked out for months doing E10 tunes. Good research gents.
I love listening to people like Kye talk about tuning. Great video.
Great video. I'm also shocked at the results and a good money saving exercise for the young fella.
Excellent episode with lots of interesting information. Back in the day I ran a rolling road dyno for years tuning competition engines on mainly Weber carburettors, seeing what can be done with management is quite amazing for an old school tuner like me, thanks very much for posting these videos. 'Sausage' HT Racing Ltd
Trolling your kids is the best 🤣
It's pretty common here in NZ but I avoid the shit out of it on my old 80s carb things because it eats up non viton seals.
Been using E10 for yrs. Saved heaps of$$$
Trolling ya kids 👍 definitely a bonus of being a dad 👌
This is an awesome video. I am about to tun my tb48 patrol and I was reasonably confident that tuned properly e10 would be a great fuel. I want to put a flex fuel sensor in it so that if E10 isn't available it will reset ignition etc to suit.
I would love to see a turbo car and testing with the same way
All our fuel around here, regardless of octane rating, is E10... kinda hell on old lawnmowers and such. Neat thing to see someone tuning specifically for it!
Not great if you leave it sitting for months, no. Four times now I've gotten a "broken" motorised garden tool for cheap or free and fixed it just by mixing fresh fuel.
You might be able to get alkylate gasoline.
Disconnect the baffle box under the airbox, you can run 25 cm 75mm pvc gutter pipe if you like or just leave it. That will 100% solve the lack of air and will give it cold air
Very pertinent content, as most countries are having steep fuel price increases.
I am also in process of tuning my car to improve economy. My dyno guy has also said that lean tunes don't necessarily mean better economy.
Nice work Guys 👍
This will upset the internets. I like it.
Glad you guys shared this test. Quite intriguing. 🙌
Pls pls do the same with a boosted engine making mild power 🙏
This Information is gold!
What a great Dad! 🥰
@3:03 "I would walk 500 hundred mayalsss and i would walk 500 hundred moreeee"
Love too see the difference between hi comp motor and low comp motor.
"It's good to be a dad" 🤣
Here in the states, a lot of us actually tune for e10 because it's so prevalent. Our e10 91 octane is like your e10 98.
The fuel crisis is killing us in the UK 😭
Interesting episode guys
Trolling young bloke at the end priceless
Great info as always from the Skid Factory.
👍
It's worth noting that the octane test systems are designed to compared petrol to petrol based fuels, and does not account for MBT versus when detonation occurs. For example, one fuel might have a MBT at 16 degrees, while another fuel might have MBT at 18 degrees, but if the first detonates at 17 degrees, and the second at 17 degrees, they would measure as THE SAME OCTANE on the rating system. But one detonated PAST MBT, and the other BEFORE. In practice, most fuels burn "close enough" that this difference doesn't matter too much, but in this example we start to see some of this impacting the real world results. Ethanol doesn't burn the same, and has a different timer to power curve and detonation properties, thus it is very difficult to make apples to apples comparison without putting something on the dyno like you have here.
The engine wants what the engine wants not what you think it wants
Very interesting! I'm actually working on a mercedes m104 turbo build to run on e10, trying to reach the 800bhp barrier. Having almost the highest fuel prices in the world and no e85 available, there are not much other options left...
I run E10 in my 1FZE LandCruiser and get great economy for a 4.5L pushing 3 tonne
Thats very interesting! Would love to see the same done on a boosted motor so see which way the figures go once boost is involved! Keep up the good work!
totally agree with Al .. once your kids are teenagers it is a dad's right to troll them at every opportunity
Surprising but makes logical sense
I think the exhaust note sounded crisper also on e10 in the video. Definitely could hear the pull harder on the dyno.
That was an eye opener for me, I would have thought e10 would have made less power. I always have avoided it due to other peoples experiences with corrosion and fuel line issues etc. Maybe my old Forrester may have appreciated it too back then?
Great video! Normally run 95/98 in the FG xr6 but since fuel went up I have been using 91 until i realised E10 is 94 RON and its cheaper than 91 haha
But what's the fuel consumption like? Is it the same, more or less then the 95/98 and 91?
If you’re driving a diesel you can buy cetane booster to make your own premium fuel. You can either buy it in small brand-name quantities or buy in bulk, if you look for 2-ethylhexyl nitrate. I’ve found that my engine sometimes stutters a bit when pulling from low revs but this is gone completely with a bit of cetane booster in the tank. It probably increases power and economy too but I haven’t got any numbers.
Thomas Midgley discovered that adding 10% ethanol to petrol was a very effective anti knock agent. But it was far more expensive than the equally as effective Tetraethyllead so that was used instead. Thus leaded fuel was created. Not surprised that E10 works better on something that is tuned for it
Perhaps its due to the the extra timing you can run before knock, therefore maximising efficiency.
Oh yeah, thanks Thomas Midgley for the lead poisening he gave the globe.
@@craigdavies8099 and CFCs
Fantastic video, nothing like real world investigation.
Now this is very interesting to me. I thought i was just thinking things where different (temps, time of year, not driving for a little bit in each car) but i have had to fill up a few of times this year with E10, im in the UK btw. Anyways this is with two different cars. One is an old BMW e46 330i and another one is an old Audi TT Mk1 225 and each time i have filled these cars up with E10 ( i did check a few web pages to see if these car would be ok and they said ok, so i went with it) well i found both cars feel faster. They pull harder and are still grate fun to drive. Ive not checked to see if the MPG is any better but from the onbourd readings so far say its not any worse. Very interesting to see your findings. Thanks for the fantastic videos. Cheers.
And for the US viewers, that is $2.09 per litre not per gallon.
3.8 litres to a gallon, so around $8 per gallon, and don't forget about the conversion rate, so probably closer to $11/gallon.
Oh, and by the way, the government has temporarily taken 30 cents per litre tax off the price, so $12/gallon.
Great video thanks, Kye is always good to see on here.
Take your cars to Knight Family Motorsport for a tune.
"Chune" :) love you guys
The Queens English.
An informative video again, thank you SkidFactory!!!!!
I'm not surprised at all.
I was quietly confident it would be better.
This is a great video. My worked Legnum VR4 could really use some cruise tuning and this video confirmed my suspicions that Haltech et. al are the right answer. Currently running custom ROM with flex support but nothing like this.
Love the Legnum! Almost bought one years ago but went Stagea in the end
@@gazman9468 Stagea is definitely an easier mod platform. I do love my AYC though. :)
E10 is actually pretty decent juice.
If I wanna save money, I just limit my boost and run on E10. It's around 94 octane and significantly cheaper than any other similar option.
Hope Kye gets a bike dyno too. Would love him to tune my bikes as well
I'll ask him for you
Where I live, all gasoline is regulated to have 10% ethanol content no matter the grade. So there is no cheaper "e10" available.
Very good!
Cheers
Jim
U.K., we went from 95 standard to 95 E10 still have super which varies from 97 to 100 octane. The price per litre is £1.80 per litre E10 and over £2.00 per litre super.. absolutely mental!! Most cars below 2005 aren’t E10 compatible..
Guessing the war in Russia hasn’t helped but personally think the oil companies are coining in as much as the can before everyone goes electric. Don’t think electric is the whole solution!!
Very interesting episode tho, look forward to the next.
Further to my other post, i also have a 2008 GM Astra 1.8 SRi with the Z18XER dual iVVT engine. Ive done multiple dyno runs on this car just out of interest while i was tuning customers cars. I found on 95 RON E10 it actually made 4 bhp more than on 99 RON E5 Vpower. Again really surprised me. But then again the factory siemens ECU is calibrated for 95 anyway.
I've been using premium fuels in all my cars since it came out, the xr6t loves Shell V Power, followed closely buy Amplfy 98 ( Caltex 98 ), im not sure the exact recipe for Shell but compared to the rest I can feel the difference in the Xr6t. Its has to do with something called Flame Propagation, the way the flame front pushes the piston down the bore, Alchol fuels do this at a much faster rate because of the added Oxygen and Hydrogen in the mix, simple Chemistry.
Interesting to read that. I also found a 6L ls loves vpower above others. Didn't expect any difference from the BP 98 I usually run but theres definitely a noticeable difference in torque and sound. E10 was always underwhelming but I never ran it long enough for long term trims to adjust. I have a forced induction v6 that seems to love e10. But it definitely uses more. Still cheaper compared to 95 or 98.
This kind of stuff it very interesting good stuff
E10 is pretty close with 98 stuff. I spent some time on a cammed v8 tuning 98 vs e10, eventually grabbing a ethernol sensor and fitting it so it'd auto switch between what became not high/low maps but e10/98 maps essentially. I did find that E10 is very violitile under temp and general driving load conditions.... so I wouldn't say it's more knock resistant that ethanol not at all. But in terms of power most applications should be within a few kw either side.
E10 is standard in the US for all octane grades AFAIK. In my area we don’t have e85 at the pump. But there’s a few motor sports company’s selling 50 gallon barrels if you want. My flex sensor only ever reports about 8.8-9.2% alcohol. So not exactly e10 but close enough.
M8 Kai is the best! Im stoked he gets on board
Every day is a school day. Very interesting.
I've been told that if you lean out the mixture at cruise you need to compensate with more ignition timing to get the torque back because a leaner mixture burns slower.
We did sweep the ignition timing with the leaner mixture on the dyno and saw no improvement 👍
@@knightfamilymotorsport cheers! I was hoping to see it tested, now I don't have to waste my time with it.
This is actually very interesting to me that fuel efficiency is a good idea for a young fella
Take a drink every time he says essentially 😎
Very very interesting. In Sweden they've also gone to e10, but I've out habit been filling my subarus up with 98. Would be really interesting to do a dyno run and see what the outcome here.
Drove my forester (2007 automatic, with vf48 turbo) 460km yesterday, and going a bit slower I managed to squeeze out 0.9l/10km (26 miles/gallon), a new low record for that car, which I've only had for 2months.
My 2005 impreza wrx on the same journey my record is 0.73l/10km (32 miles/gallon). In the wrx I once filled it with 95 ( which was E5 at the time ) and it did not react well, could not overtake as the ecu was not having higher revs under load with that fuel.
My 4.6 litre Lexus V8 gets close to 30mpg on highway runs at 110-120km/h so would have hoped a much smaller displacement turbo engine under low load would do a lot better than that - but then I guess Subaru's do have a reputation for being gas guzzlers for a reason. Of course around town the 1UR can be a bit of a guzzler too particularly with my lead foot.
My 2000 impreza hates e10! I had to put some in to get me home and I might as well have walked! Was idling very lumpy, needed more revs to pull away and the minute I tried getting on boost it just hesitated! It's not going in my car again!
the octane rating is independent from the ethanol percentage though- at the moment all they sell here in Germany is "Super E10" and "Super E5" both 95 octane (not the same as US octane!) the "Super plus", which would be E5 98 octane isn't sold at many places- and then there is the 100/102 octane stuff- which many stations do not offer at the moment.. because it was so expensive (was 2,48€/L a few weeks ago..)
@@LostinWales If you gained anything from this video, you would have heard that just putting it in and send it isn't ideal. Have it tuned for e10 might yield a complete different outcome like they did.
oh, man that's something I'd want looked at. My 2 tonne, 4L Jaguar Sovereign gets those numbers easily. Think you might go easier on the throttle there.
Kye is the best! I wonder how good the figures would be with the 94 octane E10 we have in Sydnerney? Also, Kye is the best!
I have to agree with that 100%
I have a h6 outback with mud terrains and roof basket with an awning around the city I get 12-13 L/100km on 98
Pretty similar numbers to the Liberty in manual. Subarus are shit on fuel, always have been. Good to drive though.
I think the key here is the flex fuel sensor and the capabilities of the haltech ECU. Wonder if Al can provide us with real world fuel economy numbers in comparison to see whether doing the mods and tuning for e10 might actually be a worthwhile investment.
It has had no effect on fuel consumption, it's just cheaper to fill.
@@theskidfactory what has that been if you don't mind me asking?
Economy has always been about 12l/100km around town (60-80kmh) and around 10 on the highway. It was the same when it was stock with a 5 speed auto. They are shit on fuel but the NA EJ25 is not much better and turbos are worse. Subaru life.
@@theskidfactory Thanks mate. I own one so was curious.
Perfect timing. Just about to start tuning my 3rz Hilux to eqp with a speeduino
E10, to a lesser degree than E85 but still noticeably so, contains less energy per litre and so mileage should be worse than 98. Would be interesting to hear the actual cost difference not per litre but per 100km adjusted for fuel efficiency. PS here in Europe 98 is E5, from the sound of it that's not the case (yet) in Aus?
It's just good that European cars don't run on natural gas. That stuff is going to real expensive come winter of 22. 🤔🥃
im a service tech and do 4000 to 6000 Km's per month. i have used a logbook app to track fuel cost and average fuel ecconomy. My Suzuki Vitara S Turbo is supposed to have 95 or higher in AUS . The Costco petrol here is 10% ethanol but they call ot 94 octane. i have been using it mostly but having to use 95 at times and even 98 depending on where i am when i get low. the car does slightly better on the costco fuel than any other and is averaging 6.2 Lt per 100 Km in fuel ecconomy over 30,000 Km's traveled highway and city combined
E98 is 0% to 5% ethanol, called e5
E95 is 5% to 10% ethanol, called e10.
In the Netherlands bp has 0% ethanol in 98 and Esso has 5% ethanol in 98. Everybody that knows this goes to bp to fill a gas can for lawnmower and such.
that was my thought too!
less energy-Dese = more fuelconsumption
one the other Hand: less sesitive to knocking = more Power
thats why all the JDM-Tuners love E85. So they can push higher boost on a high load without knocking the engine to death
whaaaaaa?!? you mean E10 isnt necessarily the devil?! who knew 🤔👨🏫.. great ep as always 👌
oh and solid trolling 🍻😂
Here in Germany they faded out 91 octane regular years ago in favor of 95 octane E5 super. Later they added 95 octane E10 super and most stations sell these two options next to 98 octane super+ . Bigger Shell and Aral stations also offer 100 octane ( Shell V-Power ) and even 102 octane ( Aral Ultimate ) that´s rated as E5 but is most times a non ethanol content fuel.
I run my daily driver normaly on E5 95 octane and my hobby cars ( modified Celica ST185 and MR2 AW11 ) on 102 octane or at least 98 octane as the ethanol content fuels has shown chemical stabilty issues over time in the past.
Much less stabile and really corrosive on anything that's not ethanol resistant
@@rm6330 lol
Australian say "data" in a funny way daar da lol 😄
Dad of the year 😅👌
I have the pleasure to find e100 on every gas station in my country. That’s why my car only got a map for e100, even though our regular gas is actually e27.
Up to E60, most don’t much gains other then safety margins and using bigger injectors are required
Great video as usual boys
In Holland, 95 is E10 is the regular petrol, tought it is Europe wide.
And super 98 is E5, so we can't get pure petrol without special ordering
Should wrap the roof in a bright orange wrap for the grommet
e10 is great fuel, turbo barrras love it
It went hard at all asian day. Dmax gave it a run..
Can confirm. Good fun eh Gus?
That Dmax though
I've always said E10 is better due to ethanol burning better which creates more power now it's on film providing my point, the ethanol papers is a great read & scientific proof
Kye is a legend, so much knowledge. Maybe you can Show a EJ20 tuningsession one day?
Well here in Germany my Accord CU2 knocks like crazy with Super 95 E10. With Super 98 the Problem is not that bad. E85 is unfortunately nowhere available anymore
That’s EXACTLY why I’ve always put E10 in my stock 07 Hyundai Getz…
Here in my part of the U.S. (Virginia), all octane levels are E10. You have to look for a gas station that has ethanol 0 fuel.
I'd say noone who saw the MTOD Engine Masters episode that covered this was surprised but it's still good to see. don't put E10 in a car that wasn't made for it though (it eats stuff)
Great video guys! Well done
Ethanol has less energy per liter than oil based fuels. When E85 first came out, I was buying it at $1.30 ish per liter but burning it at a rate that made 95 or 98 far more cost effective. Now E85 is more than 98 so you're definitely only buying it for the extra octane these days.
Do the same thing with lpg please gents, id love to lpg convert my car and get it tuned, plus i hear it has a higher octane rating as it burns much colder
Can any current experts comment on this please.
I've recently tried exploring this path for my commodore ute (liquid injected lpg) but called right round Sydney only to find out the companies making those parts are all closed down.
what an ending