Head to squarespace.com/bellulargaming to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code BELLULARGAMING. Today's video is sponsored by Squarespace.
@@darthraider7935because there truly is no practical use for them outside of very niche areas. A lot of my favorite mounts are non flying, so do you know what that means? It means they don’t ever get used lol.
they really need to rethink their mount system. I'd reckon all they really need would be to add a special visual effect that looks like they're running on a sheet of magical ground, mist, clouds, etc. Presto, ground mount can be changed to have flight enabled. Water Mounts? They can just swim through the air, the same way how players did whenever the mount visual bugged out when using flight paths and other scripted flight scenes. Throw a bubble of water around them or something, doneso.
I don't want a time trial mode that is about massive AoE pulls. I want a challenge where the group and I methodically overcome small and big obstacles. Something that requires skill in execution.
I don’t mind mythic+ but I miss the old style of dungeons where you actually took your time. I feel so bad for the art team. They design such cool dungeons with so much detail only to have players fly through them as fast as they can. They don’t even feel like dungeons anymore.
It's gotten to the point in which new players quit the game because people treat everything like mythic+, even in Timewalking dungeons and leveling dungeons below level 60: the tank tries to pull in literally the entire instance which is stressful for people who play slower classes with very little to no speed buffs and especially for newer healers who can't catch up. All it does is give newer players the impression that the game is some e-sport rather than an mmo.
I remember the tactics, the teamwork and other things that went into the dungeons. I remember doing dungeons for the rewards of that dungeon, not because it was the key that I had. Why was the old system such a bad system? They could have made M+ just harder difficulties, and so people could run dungeons for the gear they wanted like they always did (and then they could do higher difficulties for better gear)... but everything has to be made into an e-sport with Blizzard, and it's ruined aspects of their game.
One of the reasons I like playing healer is if someone is a shit head and ruining the leveling experience for others I legit just let them die lmao. Tank or DPS. Doesn't matter. If they act like a jerk or don't listen to others in chat and tune everyone else out or heck if they just vote kick someone for making a mistake or not parsing in freaking leveling I just hold up the group or leave and make there time more annoying. I'm petty like that toward jerks.@@abyssalserpent3679
If content forces you to want to reroll your class, something is HORRIBLY wrong. One thing that is a personal rule of mine set in stone for years in WoW is that i will play my class because i enjoy my class, and anything that insinuates that i should reroll is a game problem that should be fixed and not a "me" problem And theres the rewards part where M+ is a stressful clusterfuck that gets to a point you start questioning if what you are getting out of it compensate for the mental trauma
I mean. Any spec and class can clear anything. If you can't handle someone else doing it slightly faster or dealing slightly more dps by the end of the run then that's a player issue lmao. Just play the class you like the look of most and enjoy the rotation of the most.
Clusterfuck especially for healers. Sometimes it does make me wonder if the juice is worth the squeeze. There needs to be more rewards besides are very generic lame mount.
yeah bro go find groups of +15 that will take you as a Survival Hunter or Frost Dk Spec Maters is nor a you issue same in PVP some specs have way more syergi with each other then others and some specs performe better then others u try to climb as a Frost DK in pvp and see how much fun you will have unless u play with some buddies but enything LFG will reject u@@MilkshakeGuruTTV
@@inmysoul7I disagree. My main and alts are around 2500-2800 yet they all struggle to get into keys but my mage who has one of the lowest io can just automatically get in keys
I miss the old days of walking into Ironforge, seeing a guy standing on the bridge in some high level ultra cool transmog set, and I wanted to BE that guy, to BE as cool as that guy. Now.. that guy doesn't exist, that moment no longer exists, that feeling no longer exists. And it will never come back. Honestly, I dislike M+. Over the years, Dungeons and Raids have moved from cool fun things to do at level cap to waste a few hours with your friends on the weekend. To high meta, grinding numbers, high stress, "You aren't doing enough dps, you can't play with us..", gameplay which drives OG players and casuals away. We do NOT want to spend our few hours of gaming being screamed at for not doing enough dps, not making timers, and not finding good groups for this content. I play Druid because I like druid, I don't want to be shamed for playing a class which isn't the new "meta" for M+ for that particular week. Blizzard has painted themselves into this corner and I don't think they will be able to undo this. They have moved twords this for years, and as a result, OG casual players have been left behind more and more.
Feel very much the same. No longer about the fun, just the numbers. Great for some people but not everyone. If I want it to be just about playing the numbers, I can go to work.
It’s ashame because mythic plus was sooooooooooo fun in bfa 8.3.. I think with all the new dungeons and new changes to like frost mage being glacial spike focused like with no ice lance bfa build I think we will have a good next season
The problem is the timer, and the associated punishments. As a tank, you pull carefully at the beginning to check how the group is performing, the DDs find it too slow, they pull more, the healer can't handle it, the group wipes and the key is gone. Good game design really. End of season, and players *still* miss crucial mechanics. And I can't blame them. Each trashpack nowadays has more mechanics that you need to know than the actual bosses. You need a PhD for each dungeon. It's a mess. Make it hard the way it used to be back in TBC with heroic Dungeons. That you have to use tactics as a group. That you have the time to prepare your strategy. It's all about the timer and on top: the rewards this seasons suck. You don't even get a nice reward for enduring all of this...
I often wondered if M+ would be better without a timer. The timer creates a lot of problems. You need classes that have fast burn damage, short cooldowns, CCs, BL and so on. If it would just be an endless scaling you could again be "using what you have" instead of "bring what you need". In the old days you tried to play the dungeons with what you had and not bring what you need (at least most of the time).
Agreed. I realized the only fun I was having was seeing how hard I could carry groups as a prot pally. When it comes to pushing, it was so hard to find a competent group. I was grinding aspect crests to gear up and I found myself falling asleep at the computer m+ had become so boring
I agree with the no-timer approach. In my opinion, while M+ is fun to me, it would be better if they just got rid of the timer and made the dungeons harder. During TBC Classic, I was surprised how hard some of the dungeons were without any affixes, in some cases comparable to +20 key moments. They should go back to making the dungeons a challenge that isn’t time-gated so players can strategize and work their way through.
If you eliminate the timer, it opens up the oppoertunity for devs to create actually interesting dungeons with more intricate pathings, more variety of mobs and bosses, and with that, more variety of comps. I think it would be a good change.
Literally nothing bad would happen if they remove it. If people want to speedrun, and they find that enjoyable, they still can, and have that tracked on raider IO or whatever for bragging rights. Classic players have been doing it since before it even became official. Speedrunning community for many games is alive and well, and there's no official rewards for any of it from the game companies.
They can even introduce scenarios into the dungeons that have a sort of soft enrage , hidden timers which would be really fun... like dps the gate and hold off the adds.
And... Whats the point of Mythic +, if they do that? They can't delete the timer. Where would be fun of challenge? The problem is balance, they spent more time in Dragonflight for reworks, than on dragons...
@@jakubgniadek4234 do you have no imagination? Obviously you just change the reward structure and the penalty system. You beat the dungeon you go up and maybe get an extra piece of gear. The quality of gear and/or amount of gear goes up with the level of key. You don't, you stay the same level, and you can decide if you want to go down voluntarily. Some people might just want to stay at lower levels and enjoy that. Those that want to push can go higher. They can adjust how many levels you go up at a time. Or instead of time they could limit attempts per boss? Its not rocket science, and it seriously mitigates the meta comp problem, and would probably provide more feedback to blizzard on which classes or specs are underperforming and why, since players would do less self-selection for meta comp. Why in gods name are you advocating for the current broken implementation of this system? It is easier to change the system than to try to balance the classes just for this specific system.
I never cared for M+. Gets old running the same dungeons over and over even if it’s new dungeons each season. You also got people that leave keys and waste time. M+ is not content in my opinion. Just seems like a terrible system Blizzard implemented and keeps saying it’s content for something to do in the game. I’d be okay if they just got rid of it. Just make it like the good old days. You run your dungeons and then go raid don’t have to worry about running a higher level key just for a slightly better piece of gear each time. Gets old so fast
the timer heavily punishes the group for any mistakes and forces the entire dungeon to be treated as a single encounter. No time to plan ahead, no time to drink, no to time to explain things to new players, just go go go! Not to mention the trickle down effect its had throughout the game of skipping entire sections of the dungeons. The game really flourishes when its less focused on pitting the entire community in competition against each other for different ratings and scores, let the mmorpg be one.
@@Apathina once the key starts there is no time to really communicate and putting in lol style pings isnt the answer imo, id rather not do it then if it remains as it is... healer job.... healer supposed to... yawn.. why make it a job?... i beg to differ 😂
Right because spending 7 hours in BRD because some clown keeps initiating the escort encounter was really the pinnacle of dungeoneering. /eyeroll M+ is far from perfect, but until you start reaching 20+, there's no need to try and be ultra perfect about everything. It DOES demand that everyone knows their kit, understands mechanics and affixes, and treats each encounter carefully and pulls their own weight.
@@Sanxioned1 so far into the matrix, you cant think outside the box and to the future... things dont need to be like the past or like they are now... introducing fun social rpg elements would bring people back into the game imo and m+ system without a timer could be it. Relearning mechanics and what everything does as a healer every season is soo boring... id much prefer to engage with mechanics that are clear, and obvious so you can pick it up quickly while doing it rather than reading extensive guides.
M+ is toxic AF. Back in the time when I did it I felt like i was starting to get exhausted of the game. But when I stopped, my will to play the game just increased. There are other ways to enjoy the game without being competitive.
Tank makes a mistake and two people in your group say something and boom they leave, key is dead. You can also replace tank with healer in that sentence. Rinse and repeat. I can’t play nearly as much as I could have in legion. I struggle to get invited to +8’s as a 432 enhancement shaman because my IO is low (due to being able to run mythics maybe one day a week or every other week). Been playing since vanilla yet person hosting the key never looks at all my older aotc raid achievements(yes I’ve even resorted to doing that to show I do know how to play and have experience),and they just think I don’t know how to play because of my IO score -_-
I never liked M+ it fundamentally strengthens the "go go go!" mentality of optimizing things to a fine point in an MMO. To me an MMO should be "you can do content by playing just average or below average" take it easy, build a community. The point is that the Elitists *should* be the exception to the rule, not the norm. When you turn an ENTIRE player base to only think in the greatest optimizing to wank off of? It breeds and festers Elitists It makes Elitists become a requirement, now in the thousands, even millions Then you see byproducts of them trying to one-up each other With one of the symptoms carrying over that the average person has to do 20 button rotations because the Elitists are bored and that's the _bare minimum_ they need for their game, when they're doing 30+
@@shiningarmour6805 You have very valid points there. I don't dislike M+ but I would like it better in a way where the timers wouldn't be such a huge emphasis and instead it would just be hard via mechanics etc so there would be less of a go go go mentality. I know this is not a popular opinion though..
This is the game that poisons like raid io and its cultists created. If there is a hell created by those who make M+ and helped the game reach this state, it is in this that everyone who said yes to this depraved game mode must live happily. Have Mercy.
Personally, i've never been a fan of M+, too gimmicky It always felt like an artificial extension of content, much like the double raiding back in Wrath.
I prefer it over raiding, it’s annoying as hell trying to get people together in a certain time frame, if I wanna do a dungeon i list my key get four dudes we go
Yes, exactly. But the modern gamer is too stupid to understand this. If they just stopped accepting reheated leftovers content and started demanding quality then things would change, but instead they gobble down the literal shit and try to tell the rest of us it's chocolate.
The M+ experience begins at the application stage. If your class isn't a meta class or doesn't bring the needed utility, you are already discriminated against. So you spend way too long in town with nothing to do (world content is dull asf) and potentially may not even get to play the game at all. There's just way too many constraints and requirements you have to have to form a M+ group: gotta have a brez, gotta have a lust, gotta have this and that and that for X weeks. Oh hey, the classes that bring all those utilities also do the best damage too. Wow, such balance. Afflicted and Incorporeal are garbage affixes added to S2. They are mosquitos that you have to swat (and have classes that can deal with them) so freaking often. Affixes don't add fun, only frustration and annoyance. "Push" weeks are considerably more fun to play than "dead" weeks.
@@inmysoul7 I would disagree. They are correct about the M+ experience, and especially from the +2 - 23 range. I have way too much experience not being invited to most things above an 18 with a 2900 io character that isn't meta spec.
Correct. I still remember the Pandaria design for hunter, where if you knew your class and put in time, you could literally bring ANY needed utility - lust, dispell, brez, melee debuff, snare... The trees we have now were gutted because they added constraints that make free choices impossible, limiting choice. They should give us a toolbox to know and pick from for a run, and then make it our responsibility to pick correctly and rise to the challenge. Instead they try to pump the "mobile stats" (characters at cap, keys started, etc - things that board morons will understand and be able to compare against other "products").
The last M+ I did was in Legion. It's something I don't even bother to interact, since it's constructed in a way that only allows power players and no way for new people to get introduced to.
False you cant easy get into it but it demands some work from.your side mate. Like know your class know whats going on in the dungeons and how to deal with affixes. You can get in to it like any other content in wow but maybe you shouldnt go in a 10+ if u never did m+ before.
I personally think that WoW itself is just terrible. Blizzard did everything to kill the community in the past by implementing stuff that supports toxicity. The game is all about gearing which ends in exponential damage increase. Classes are insanely imbalanced and support abilities like br/heroic still bound to characters. You have your max gear within 1-2 weeks and after that it is all about weekly choires / gambling chest that does not make any sense chasing for. Also it is not worth to spend any time to grind that gear because next patch it is all useless again. Also with every patch all old content is killled again. Not to forget they expect people to do 8 dungeons even after years within one season. I have no clue why it is so hard to give us just all former m+ in a weekly rotation just for fun instead of annoying affixes you require special classes for and most of the time the tank or heal is the guy caring for affixes only.
It has always truly disgusted me how m+ does not at the very minimum get a “unique” (recolor) of the tier armor set like pvp. We need rewards that are on par with that of MoP and WoD challenge dungeons not to mention how good sets such as the primal elite set from WoD season one is. The lack of both quality and quantity is inexcusable for a game as large as WoW in my opinion.
@@immatoll4375there is a decent amount wrong with your comment but at the end of the day it seems like you really just don’t enjoy the game anymore so I’m sorry for that
I hate M+, it teaches bad player mechanics or rather severe lack of them. Groups that are playing the clock rather than the content and not working as a group, its all about the timer
Just because it's a different gaming philosophy from the one you subscribe to does not mean it is inherently "bad". I like the timer but I understand it isnt for everyone, nothing ever can be.
@@codycurtin2295 Problem is, you either play M+ or you just don't have rewarding access to small group content without a timer. They should just introduce an alternative so the players that like the timer stick to it and the ones that don't, still have a way to enjoy dungeons.
Another thing. The moment my friends quit i stopped (pugging is a disease). Finding people is HARD (at least for most of us). you get discouraged/demoralized pretty fast and just stop playing. I know people hate things like LFR, Solo Shuffle, RBGs "shuffle" (lol) (i used to hate em aswell) but when you play by yourself its suddenly a good option (if the younger version of me could read this lol, i was a tryhard, very competitive player.. but then life happens). The main reason people leave the game is because of this. WE NEED OPTIONS. I don't want to stop playing but i can't find reasons to stay. Not having friends in game, queues and elitism kill the mmorpg experience.
Yup, I still wanted to play but everyone moved around or stopped and I still wanted to raid and PVP. I did do M+ in Legion every day for two years but don't like what it evolved into and just stopped and also stopped playing for two years. Solo Rated RBGs next expansion will be a godsend to me along with just doing LFR and open world content. I will then dip my toes back into pugging normal and heroic raids.
I greatly enjoyed Mythic + in Legion as it was just the right size for my group of friends. The affixes that came slightly later however made it not fun at all. Harder, but not necessarily more challenging, just more frustrating.
Legion had way more variety and some classes even had break points when they'd hit a certain level of mastery or spell power, which allowed more flexibility. The homogenization that is always pushed is what allows for these "God comps" to come about. Having some dps, healers and tanks be better at different types of content really adds to class identity and allows for different comps.
It was fun instead of feeling like a shoehorned e-sport. I will always view Legion as the pinnacle of M+. My friends and I never found it boring or tiring. Was always a good time just blasting mobs in high keys.
The big issue for me when pugging mythic plus as a tank, is that if I'm not running THE optimal path when I havn't run the dungeon in weeks, months or years, people will cuss you out and leave. I'd rather learn it by playing, not adhere to some guide that changes each week.
From its moment of inception I hated Mythic+. For me, it was the absolute death of the dungeon format, because I knew it would entirely replace the standard endgame 5-man content. The whole idea of rush rush rush beat the arcade timer aracde zap steam-along is the complete opposite of what used to be a relaxing strategic 'night out' doing a dungeon with friends.
@@inmysoul7 What an original response. The modern game can actually appeal to people like me as well, you know. Mythic+ does not have to be the final word in engame dungeon crawls.
Easiest fix would be to just remove the timer from mythic+. I really do think it would solve a lot of problems including problems those of us who pug m+ have due to work or not having an active guild.
I agree, in part. It would be cool to promote a timer-less system as an additional method to gearing. Maybe the chest drops less loot or something, idk, to balance it
This would be fine for low m+ below 20s, but how do you seperate it. My group could do over 30s with no timer. It would simply be how high can we play with mechanics to live through sections. It would also have no life span. Dead just like heroic raiding is two months into the patch is what m+ would turn into.
So take away all the competition from m+? No thank you!!!!! We need the timer. If you don’t want to be timed, don’t do it!!! Easy. But don’t ruin it for those of us who only play wow for m+. That’s so selfish.
In answer to your "bring the class not the player" section, it is one of the real reasons I checked out of the game. My group had pushed me out of feral druid and into elemental shaman....because "all ranged is the way to go this season" [my guild leader statement] So here I was pugging....or not on my feral druid. I would get kicked al lthe time cause the group soon realized I was not bear or moonkin and I was lucky to make it to +13 before i just never resubbed at the end of August. This is more than a god comp situation, this is a casual one as well. Where if you find groups, you better hope they don't pressure you into anything. Another note: my sister LOVES BM hunter and mained it all through season one. She left when she was forced on to shadow priest BEFORE the start of s2, beefore the god comp was even built and dominated. This game has gone from having fun to meta BS....and I cannot take it anymore.
Yeah, sucks that the game does that, but also that guild leader sounds bad for forcing specs... unless maybe you are trying to push mythic raids or something super hardcore I guess.
Coming from classic tbc / wotlk I thought when I would jump into dragonflight M+ would be like the unnerfed heroic dungeons of TBC which were some of the most fun I’ve ever had in dungeons. The mobs could even one shot tanks so you had to CC the hell out of every pack. Carefully pull, DPS down asap while keeping other mobs cc’d and so forth. It felt very satisfying and rewarding.
i think the timer is fine the way it is now because it rewards mastery over the content, , maybe just dont deplete the key if we dont time the dungeon.
@@schmooplesthesecond5997 In theory timer is good, but irl it leads to toxicity and elitism. Players want only the most effiencent way, which means the best classes, players with highest scores..etc. I would totally delete the timer and maybe introduce some soft enrage mechanics in bosses, like in raids.
@@deanfromhungary It's not even because it's the most efficient way, it's because the cost of failure is also too high. When failing punishes you like M+ does, you are going to take the best possible crew into each dungeon to maximize your chances of succeeding.
The toxicity really is horrible amongst pug groups. Groups that have one unfortunate mishap but otherwise have a very clean run seem to always piss off that one person where even if you’re at the end, they leave because you’re not timing. Can’t change people though so what’s there to do? :/
@@benjaminghazi787 Wont matter, M+ is designed to be competitive. Competitive games push people toward a certain mindset. That mindset breeds a toxic mentality. Doesn't matter if it's M+ in wow or any other competitive game, you'll see similar things, and that is what has mainly ruined wow over the past decade in all areas of the game.
Well, you could just, ya know jump into a normal version of a current dungeon, or go fly into any of the older dungeons ANYTIME you want if you want to admire the art teams work. No one's stopping you.
ahahah the people on this thread just gave us a glimpse of why people aren't bothering to do M+ anymore ahahahahaha "It's not for you. just quit" hahah then the majority quit and all we have now is a downward graph
@@jextra1313 but I thought you only cared about the art 🤦♂️ turns out all you care about is ilvl. Get this nonsense about not being able to appreciate the art out of here what are yall talking about.
That happens when you OUTSOURCE your game to Devs who dont even play and rely on TWO GROUPS of PAID MYTHIC RAIDERS to tell you how to craft Dungeons....
I primarily do m+ for my endgame content, very rarely raid, but there is one major thing you glanced over in this, are the affixes as a whole. You did talk about the shuffling, but just get rid of them, or at least provide a benefit for actually dealing with them correctly. They're one of the primary reason healing is at all time low point for m+, because most of them (if not all) are thought to be "a healer problem," and if they provided a "kiss/curse" (as I've heard some folks refer to it), more DPS would look to help with them. For instance, properly dealing with an Incorp or Afflicted grants that player a 5-10% haste buff for 20 seconds. Successfully "unentangling" yourself grants you a 20% speed boost for 10 seconds. We finally have a great expansion for alts, but dogsh*t affixes make them so much less enjoyable to push into anything above a six & you have to deal with them. The other large issue I have, is how god damn complicated m+ has become as a whole. Not only are classes becoming more difficult to play with 10+ MANDATORY key binds, and ~15 more things you should use, but you have the actual dungeon itself. Every boss has become a mini-Raid boss, which I get it, is the point. But there are too many mechanics, bleeds, curses, etc. throughout each run & too many "you have to deal with this while you have to avoid that's," to make me want to keep coming back for the chance I might get a drop at the end of the run; which, let's be real, won't have the right secondary stats anyway.
This made me think of doing M+ in Legion, no one interrupting interruptible damage that comes with a debuff, and blaming me for the fight going bad. Gawd I don't miss that sort of thing.
Ion being the stubborn fool he is, specifically stated they don't want to add any positive elements to affixes in his interview with I think Bellular or whoever it was. That should tell you all you need to know, this shit is never getting better and it explains why all the new affixes they make are worse than the ones before.
Biggest issue with the god comp is that it affects people in lower keys who have 0 BUSINESS trying to min max their run. You denying someone outside of that comp in a +10 isn't going to make or break it. However, as we know, lower ends of M+ are cesspools as it is a bunch of people who lack the skill to push higher keys, but rely on what is happening on the high end to inform their decisions
Yeah in SL where KSM was +15, there was a weird curve where 0-8 were people chilling, 8-14 were people tryharding like crazy, then 15+ were once again people who could clear it easily and carry others and were back to just chilling.
When you make the game nothing but an ALT LEVELING SCHEME this is what you get. Blizzard is CATERING to people leveling ALTS and GIVING THEM PURPLES for showing up. You can have 23 alts but when you CANT PLAY ONE this is what WoW has become.
Would like to see heroics being a parallel to M+, rather a means to an end at the beginning of an expansion. Basically, heroics could be Dawn of the Infinite type challenge (or say +12-15) without timers. Classic TBC made me realize how much I enjoy the slow, methodical pace of dungeons like that.
How about instead of doing that, release all dungeons the same way as dawn of the infinite. Introduce them as mythic dungeons with good rewards, then throw them in the M+ pool in later seasons.
I had a similar realisation with Classic but also slightly different. I much enjoyed the slower pace of those dungeons much more, but I was missing the more interesting mechanics to do (though retail has a bit too many today). I did however like the simpler spec designs and lack of button bloat and whack-a-mole that plagues retail. My happy place is somewhere in-between classic & retail.
Augvoker was flat out the biggest problem. There's a reason why devs got rid of support specs over a decade ago. Apparently these devs didn't learn that lesson from the prior devs.
Help me out. I started playing in WOTLK. What specs were support specs that they got rid of? Or was it basically BC to WOTLK when they did that? I've heard a lot about how some specs were just unplayable in Vanilla and in BC some would have one spec brought to the raid because it was the only spec that could do a certain thing, such as ret in BC i believe. In the times I played I don't ever remember a support spec although I do remember specs you would only use to pvp and never pve, such as frost mage.
@@straighttalkwithkyle7947 there were never any support specs, you could go waaaay out on a limb and maybe say shaman for totems and paladin for blessing back in vanilla but there have never been dedicated support specs such as augvoker in wows history
M+ caters for the few elitists but is required for the masses if you want the best gear tracks as early as possible to be most competitive in raiding. The new gearing system was an excellent change but when you consider you can do hours of world quests and dailies and random activities vs a handful of m+ to gain equal amounts of gear currency. I hate being funnelled into m+
I haven't done much of M+ which was only really during Shadowlands and I've never been a fan of it. It's a contrived way to earn loot and it breeds elitism. I think there's a right way to do it but the timer forces groups to fly through dungeons at 1000 mph while also expecting you to do it perfectly. That's not fun.
Blizzard just destroyed their MMORPG by focusing on dungon crawling. They could have millions of players with a living open world, instead of that they want their private dungeon brawl competitions which only adress a few. They deserve to lose all their customers for being stupid.
I think M+ is yet another reason I quit. To me and yes this is utterly my opinion, I felt that the whole entire purpose of the game is to funnel you to the end game, so you can do nothing but run M+ over and over again, doing nothing but that. The other “content” was just filler to get your gear lever up so you can, do M+. Not that I think people who like that shouldn’t be allowed to do that, however for me, who would be considered a casual, as I am old have a job and responsibilities, sometimes I wanted to just chill and explore other parts of the game. I started playing and quit all during the Shadow lands, and maybe my assumption is a bit unfair, however that’s what it was for me. Even with the guild I was in, it was, hey I just wanna explore, and they would be like, but then you won’t get your gear, and I felt like, well this game should be called Mythic Dungeon Crawl. Another thing I wish, is that the zones would level you your character, so people who do want to get lost in a past game expansion and just play, can indeed do so. But anyway if anyone reads this, it’s just my opinion. I sometimes wanna get back, however…. Well.
This is why GW2 started to pop my WoW bubble. WoW conditions all their players in a way that Gear Upgrades is the only thing worth doing. You don't do anything because it's "fun," you do things because they reward gear, or you skip it because you already outgear it. GW2 has masteries to unlock, Achievments that serve as way to explore the world, interesting things to actually do... I geared my Blood DK up to 440 and basically stopped playing them because I'm not a Mythic raider and there was nothing else to do, but all my 400-430 alts still have "something to do" because they can get gear upgrades. Outside of that... Professions are a mess of items to sort through and mail between characters, World content is stale the second you outgear it, Achivements are busywork and/or boring, the rest of the game is irrelevant when ever new expansion comes out, the rest of the expansion is irrelevant once the new PATCH comes out... In a word, it's tedious. Don't get me wrong, I'm completely stockholmed so I'm not going anywhere, but damn...
I haven’t played this season but had felt something similar to the ‘god comp’ issue bothering me as a casual player. I wasn’t even doing high end dungeons (mostly was sitting between +10 - +16s). Every time an update was made to classes it felt like a chore trying to relearn the new ‘best talents’ because anything other than performing at the best the character could output 100% of the time wasn’t good enough for a majority of pug players. I used to enjoy jumping into low level keys to help out newcomers but the elitism was there as well, no tolerance for mistakes was a sad vibe, can’t imagine that being a good experience for anyone new to the game. I don’t know what the solutions is. Maybe an untimed variation where your key level stays the same if you complete it?
I like the idea of a support class. But I really wish they had just made evokers Tanks. I’ve tried Aug and I just can’t get into it and healing just feels toxic at the moment.
I don't think the main problem with M+ is a Blizzard issue. It's a player toxicity issue. Unfortunately, four people end up having to play for 30 minutes with a toxic person because they don't want to ruin a key run.
Separate the gearing from dungeons and the challenge mode runs. Have challenge modes that you can customize like the runs in HADES, set your own levels if you want to challenge yourself and your group with seasonal rewards like in Arena. Keep M+ its own thing without keys (or just depleting keys) and no timers. If not all that, remove the aspects that just turn m+ into a sour and stressful experience
I honestly stopped doing M+ dungeons in s1 because the affix balance made it miserable to play a spellcaster. Imo they need to take a look at how they balanced affixes back in Legion, and just bite the bullet and axe the timer.
100000000% this. The cap at whatever key would be how fast you can do a dungeon at that point. Having infinite scaling is dumb and just keeping people on a hamster wheel and people are now seeing through it.
Cap M+ at 20, after you time a 20 of a dungeon you unlock a special challenge version of the dungeon that is only a single boss from that dungeon with new "hard mode" mechanics that is basically a 5 man raid boss, and the system would be perfect. Literally anything fun to look forward to at the end that isn't the same exact dungeon with 100% more HP
Everytime I come back to WoW I end up quitting again a few months later because sitting for hours and hours in LFG to find M+ groups is not how I want to spend my time.
I feel like this might not be as big of an issue as some may think it is. I don’t think a large portion of wow players are pushing those high keys. I may very well be wrong, but I feel this is more of a 1% problem
It is for sure. People who push keys above 20, when rewards stop scaling, should expect grief and expect the game to become hyper specialized. They bring it upon themselves when doing infinitely scaling content.
I used to religiously do at least one M plus every week. But I’ve kind of plateaued at a certain item level. I’ve gotten all the gear I need and for the most part I’m upgraded as far as I can. I could do harder ones higher level ones, but people get more toxic and I’m not part of the God group comp so it’s hard to even get in a group these days even for the lower level ones and I would not rather not spend half an hour applying to all the ones that I can and get rejected over and over and over and over again. And that doesn’t even count all the times where someone just leaves midway through the dungeon, because we aren’t doing things their way, or a small mistake was made because we are human. It really makes you not want to do them
Rewards are the biggest issue for me. I don't mind the ground mount recolors, but the fact that there aren't continual rewards (like with honor/conquest) makes it bad
removing the timer would remove the point of M+ however i agree with the key depletion, not completing the key in time should be enough of a punishment.
@@Valvad0ss Yeah retail has sorta become an M+ game w/timer. I think that is why the game is narrowing down more to people who like that kind of thing. I've done it a bit, but can't say that I enjoy it that much other than when with a guild group or at the beginning of a season during the exploration phase. After that it is just something you have to do.
@@armiedvalentine6056 It wouldn't remove the point of M+, it would require a shift in focus of the M+ system. Give harder dungeons; make them hit harder, make CC more important, make positioning more important, make target priority important, make LoS pulls important again. Mythic+ should be like the old heroic dungeons. You noticed a definite spike in difficulty and it took tactics and teamwork to get through a dungeon... now, it's a time trial and people get pissy at a moments delay (because it does matter).
@@armiedvalentine6056 it wouldnt remove the point of M+. cap gear at 15 or 16 and cap M+ completely at like 25. then at 25 its just a race to see what group or who can run the 25 the absolute fastest. there doesnt need to be a dungeon timer for any level except 25. then when you zone into the 25, there is just a timer for you to see your speed, not to limit you to a certain time. and change the key scaling to just a +2 increase for completing a dungeon and no depletion for not completing. there, no timer required and the game is essentially the exact same as with the timer.
In an infinitely scaling system you are guaranteed to eventually encounter a threshold where things that were previously nice-to-have become mandatory-to-have.
Aye. But unfortunately in this case the actual threshold is nowhere near as low as the level where the community in general already starts to demand creme de la creme or bust. The threshold is scurrently omewhere +/-25ish, but people demand godcomp in +5s.
It's not just about the timer or metas or class stacking. It's also about it being a second class citizen compared to raiders in your own preferred type of content. If you only play M+, then it's way more difficult to progress through and you end up taking half a season just to get the set bonuses let alone the higher ilvl attainable in raids. And they just keep making that gap larger and larger, so is it a surprise that people don't want to play a form of content that's not just stressful and difficult at the higher levels but also gives you worse rewards?
I have said it for years, put Challenge Mode gear and Weapons as rewards for completing 20 or higher keys and the activity will rise. The Carrot on the Stick is powerful. But removing the timer in general is great suggestions like many have said.
Speaking as a Holy Priest, I completely agree. I like a challenge, but I don't like being on-edge for 30 minutes trying to spot every mistake and mitigate it before it becomes a run-ending threat, and I despise the moments where I have to play absolutely perfectly with every GCD to ensure everyone barely survives. On top of that, I see DPS missing interrupts, not calling targets, standing in the fire or not doing the damage their gear and spec should allow them to do, making my job harder than it needs to be and causing me to just give up and move on to another game that doesn't take a month off my life every time I start it up.
They don't really need to make healing mechanically easier, just make the actual dungeon mechanics less of a minefield than southern Ukraine. It is easier to tune a dungeon than tune/rework class mechanics because of the ripple effects it causes. And/or just remove the timer/key loss on failure, then a wipe is just a wipe, a punishment in itself.
@@Apathina Healing is very flawed, with a solid group there is often nothing for you to do. But if your group is not as solid they just ping pong from 100 to 10%hp constantly, steadier dmg and more rot fights instead of every attack almost killing everybody would solve it. Can't please em all but considering how many healers quit this season I would say you are in the minority, healing used to be about planning your cds, covering up for mistakes your party made and resource managment, now it feels like a whack a mole on steroids.
they could make more mechanics that reduce dps rather than reduce hp or they need to bake someway for the group to tell if people are dying with defensives up, are standing in shit, are not rotating through defensives, most dps don't even know that they suck because they game doesn't make it easy for them to see it
I can only speak to my experience with M+, and this season I have managed to push my rating higher than I ever have before - albeit at the cost of much of the enjoyment I hold for this game. Windwalker Monk has been and will likely always be my main, so I felt the woes of not being part of the god-comp pretty hard. I would argue that if all of the god comp specs are the ones good enough to push such insanely high keys (25-30+), then they dont need nerfs at all. With how aggravatingly difficult and punishing the keys get beyond 20+, every other spec BESIDES god comp deserve huge buffs so they can do the insanely high keys just as effectively. Spec imbalance aside, having ran more than my fair share of 20+'s this season, these dungeons do not need to be tuned to be so outrageously punishing. Why are there so many things that will one shot me out of practically nowhere? Why does seemingly EVERY single mob in EVERY group have a cast that MUST be interrupted in order not to wipe? How is anyone supposed to keep track of the four things on the ground you're not supposed to stand in WHILE not being in front of something that will cleave you WHILE also interrupting AND stunning AND ccing AND dispelling, WHILE seamlessly maintaining their rotation and cooldowns, AND keeping track of affixes? Do they expect us to use crack in order to time these keys? There could be half the frequency of mechanics to be conscious of and these dungeons would still be challenging. Healers need love, dungeons need lots of fine tuning, a lot of outlying specs need a lot of love. I should be more than capable of running 25s, im more than familiar enough with my class, but when unavoidable damage kills me through personal mitigation cooldowns, and doing my rotation perfectly still leaves my DPS in the dust behind meta specs - there's obviously a problem that needs to be fixed.
The most fun I’ve ever had in the game was running M+ during nyalotha. The affix was fun it let you do unique paths through the dungeon. Playing with broken corruptions was so much fun. I would run any key of SoB to get a titanforged spyglass (I didn’t know titanforging was gone). It was still so much fun being in near max gear pounding up low level keys doing like 60%-70% thinking it wasn’t a waste of time because there was still a chance I could get an upgrade.
Removing WF and TF'ing to please the mythic raiding scene was a mistake. Activision promotes a small group of content creators that parrot their ideals in an echo chamber.
The new talent tree is simultaneously a big W and a big L. Big W because it has some interesting choices and Big L because they had a chance to make WoW a bit simpler but they made it even more complicated. There are way too many buttons, buffs, debuffs and stuff. PvP is impossible to play at good level for new players or even old. Expecting people to know every class important buffs and debuffs to be able to counter them is insane. PvP is way too complicated to be fun for most players imo.
If M+ is in such a bad place, then they need to fix it if the majority are unhappy. If nothing is done, they'll lose a lot more subs they can ill afford.
It's the timer. When Mythic+ was introduced, what i wanted (and hoped) for was harder dungeons. The way there was a big difficulty spike between normal and heroic back in older expansions; what i got was a time trial with stupid bonus mechanics that only stress out the group you're with.
@@Valvad0ss Honestly, I'd say they should remove the keys as well. Just let people do the dungeons they want, at the difficulty they want for the gear they want. I remember running a few very specific dungeons in Vanilla all the way up to Warlords to get the things I wanted; and when I had those things, I moved on to other dungeons and other items. Why is that a bad system? Letting people do the dungeons they want for the gear they want? Mythic+ in it's current state was a mistake.
@@frostmagemarii I also remember in wrath doing heroics and getting currency to buy upgrades! So even running things with no drops for me I could enjoy getting the little boons.
Even though WoW has had PvP type "seasons" for years it wasn't until Mythic+ showed up that Blizzard formally canonized Seasons into retail WoW. Even Raids are now forced into this Seasonal format. Players engaging in the classic versions of WoW don't have to deal with this Seasonal content format and seem to still be enjoying the game.
I'm ksuprised how long it took for the community / RUclipsrs to decide that healing sucks in M+. DragonFlight's starting healing model is the current healing model. At the start of DF, I tried out each healer and thought: Wow, this sucks. None cooldown heals do nothing. Yet, when I watched RUclipsrs talk, they loved it. Saying things like "Healers have to heal again. I love it."
They removed the whole thing that makes M+ unique every season, there is no point in playing if +2 is basically the same as running +20. Also yeah the ground mount in the flying expansion.
Or just remove m+ entirely since it seems bliz can't balance classes correctly and it seems like a jumbled mess. Pour more focus back into world content and raiding, and gearing up by alternative means like back in MoP/WoD.
The game needs so much work that a rework and restart of the whole game wouldnt be a bad decision. Classes are have to much stuff, everyone is gatekeeping because they fear to waste their time because every content became so complex that its impossible for new players to get in. "You dont have X weekaura? Get out of here!" So many things are just wrong. I played wow on and of since OG Vanilla and i really loved it but i cant get into it anymore.
To me it's pretty obvious. Bliz is mostly staffed by raiders and they are focused on their favorite content. At best they just don't care about M+ and at worst they want it gone to try to push more people to raid. Why else would they nerf rewards and ignore all the issues. They admit playing favorites with class balance, it's not hard to believe they would do so with content as well.
You are correct, World of Warcraft is a game created by Everquest raiders to continue to advance that gaming scene. M+ should never have existed, it has given a large number of casuals inflated egos, and crazy ideas that their effort should be rewarded the same and organizing a 20 man team. Even the toppest end of M+ is just casual garbage compared to raids, and should be treated as such. There is no reason Dungeons should be giving rewards higher than open world content. It is a casual feeder system for the raid scene, it always has been, and always will be.
@@DarkScreamGames dungeons have always given better rewards than open world content. Always. It's the fact that it gives gear that can compete with raid gear that's a problem in my opinion. I can't stand trying to gear a character and looking at a list of best trinkets only to see half of them in M+.
I'm with Psy, I'm just not really gonna play much if I'm gonna be forced to reroll to feed the meta. I also wish for just ONE TIME they would take the "buff, don't nerf" approach to class balance. It's so annoying seeing time after time the current strong class is nerfed to the weaker class' levels rather than the other way around.
I would love to know what percentage of the level capped population does M+, considering how little attention they are paying to it i cant imagine it is that high.
i dont know about you guys, but a single player progression game mode is what i really want from wow. as a casual player, getting into mythic raid is such a daunting task, there is no point pushing past +20 dungeons, the que time for pugs takes too long, and guild raid schedule doesnt fit yours, does anyone else want a single player progression, like mage tower and torghast, but with real power progression? or its just me?
It still amazes me how their solution to OP classes is to nerf them into the floor and then buff other things. It's like they're intentionally giving specs time in the sun. When a spec is OP, why not give other specs that compete with it buffs so they're all strong? If they pull that off, there's no FOTM class, yea, but I think that's an overall improvement. A lot of people just want to play their spec, not be forced to reroll because it (seemingly) intentionally has been abandoned for a season in favor of other specs.
@@inmysoul7 You're like in all comments telling people to just not play the game. Maybe you should start playing on your own instead of getting boosted all the time. nap
I really hate the fact that Blizz has re-shifted hard into bring the Class, not the player for Class/Spec design. It's not particularly fun in Raid and it's awful in M+. Class fantasy is more about how the Class itself behaves. Not the unique buffs and utitlites that either make it a must have or a perma bench warmer. Hard fact is the game is too competitive in PvE and PvP and people have invested so much into their Classes.
Out of all mythic+ keys that were completed, what percentage of those were 25 or higher? As someone that only just pushes to 18-20 I feel like most RUclipsrs hyper focus on the extreme high end and the impact there, when in reality it’s such a small part of the community.
Finally, someone who is sane in these comments. Im someone who feels "done" after getting all my 20/portals, which usually puts me at 2700 or so. I could care less about my actual rating, I want the rewards. Which caps out at 2500 / 20's for portals. I hate these over obsessivess over the "ultra high end" crazy-ness. Its such a small ass minority of players doing these 27+ keys. I've been greatly enjoying doing M+ on my main and alts this patch - this "Death of M+" bull crap is extremely irritating because it just trickles down to the more casual playerbase
"You aren't allowed to play these spec." is a PERFECT example. I gave up when I got to the point on my Brewmaster where I had timed every +22 on Fort/Tyrannical and 1x +23 key timed. Was sitting at 2960 and could not get into any more +23 PuGs. One dude even told me, he'd take me if I was 3100, but not sub 3k... the time commitment of pushing my own key in hopes that nothing goes wrong each time just wasn't worth it. I also had many friends switch spec or even class to GOD comp.
The biggest falling off point for me is just the stress. I main healer. I just don't want to have to stop in pugs and go 'please, interrupt that cast. I don't have an interrupt. You need to do that.' Or having people I brought in specifically for a piece of utility (mages with curse dispel in Jade Temple) just... not do it after I told them exactly what I wanted from them and when that needed to happen. It's worse this season when the new affixes are just more healer affixes, too. Like, cool, more responsibility. I wasn't already paying for people not interrupting and failing mechanics. Now, I've got a bonus mob to deal with that no one else thinks is their problem. (And next season looks even less fun. Can't wait to be stuck in combat with spiteful now that Blizzard thinks I want to play mana management minigames in between packs.) So, when my group of friends was done with keys, what was I going to do? Find randoms I don't trust to do these things? I already got my portals. I got my recolored ground mount that I've never seen *anyone* use. The only way to get better gear isn't even in this pillar anymore. So, then, what now?
Unpopular opinion. Get rid of the timer. Stop adding affixes to punish and add affixes that boost the player. More haste, faster CD recovery etc etc… make it fun
Were acting like this wasn't a design choice. They've promoted this as the most 'alt friendly' expansion. So of course they want to gate M+ to people have to reroll alts to get the most 'OP' classes. Playtime = $$. If you had players using the characters they enjoy instead, you'd make less $$$
The problem is augmentation is providing 90% of the damage of a DPS spec with 200% the utility of a DPS spec. They need to tune down the survivability bonuses that augmentation provides to be closer to other DPS if having one is not an overall DPS penalty.
Im on my WoW break too. M+ started strong this season and then it began to drag. Despite last season being extremely frustrating it was still fun to do. The rewards for getting KSM or KSH aren't worth the drag of M+
i never have really enjoyed M+. I cant put my finger on it, but i guess i dont enjoyed time trial content. I liked black rock depths, where its an adventure. not, lets see how fast we can do as many dungeons as possible
@@nataku5379 So with your logic you where a better person at 2004 than you are now? Things change and evolve and yes you cant compare a 2004 game with a 2023 one.
@@inmysoul7 What are you talking about? Comparing current to an earlier version of the game is valid, heck that is where classic came from yes? But when i am stating my opinion, i can compare it to whatever i feel like. i gave clarity on my tenure to show how much experience i have had. I miss when doing dungeons didnt feel like a chore.
M+ is a bottomless pit of problems, you have a problem with balancing classes that has plagued wow ever since they downsized the group activities, the same happened when they took focus away from Battlegrounds and created arenas, this hightens all balancing issues in the game and creates frustration in the player base because if "a druid can CC you through a whole fight, why can't another class do the same?" Its the same on m+. Then you have the idea that dungeons were taken away from the raiding learning curve, now DGs are a activity in and out of themselves. As a core raider, it is really annoying that now I hate doing dungeons because "I have to do them for gear" and I cant just keep doing them for fun or just one piece or trinket, it is no longer an activity that would introduce you into bigger groups and thus into the end game of raiding. Then you have the timer that actually means you have to plow through everything, the less time you spend looking at the dungeons the better you are as a player or a group/The more you can trivialize mechanics the better you are, this happens on raiding now too, every fight has a tight enrage timer, which always means DPSing should be prioritized by everyone the game became "how much dmg can you pull" regardless of the role you chose, if you are a healer or a tank you should be aiming to dmg as much as possible. It is kind of like "you know the choice you made? It doesnt matter, you are actually all DPSs." I honestly believe that both Arena and M+ are bad for the game in the way they are made and how much they affect the rest of the game. I believe that in BOTH of those enviroments you should have a ilvl cap and pre based set of skills that are universals, those areas of the game should be COMPLETELY separated from the rest of the game. I miss wanting to do group things in WoW. I just dont feel like the game offers me good small group activities that dont involve me feeling like I have to heal, dps dodge stuff and still save the self enttitled people who think everything should revolve around them that are called damage dealers. I dislike DEEPLY that the aspects of the game that envolved cooperation and helping each other now only get you mad when someone makes a mistake, envolves a lot of rage quiting and people being rude all around because someone saw something wrong and died or missed a cut, or plainly just didnt know he was suposed to prioritize interrupting certain skill and now we wiped. People are angry all the time with each other and what made me love the game is simply taken away because everything in the game needs to have an end game and the end game normally means "how fast can you do this".
I wanted more challanging dungeons Mythic+ is just "Its hard cause if you aren't a class that can spect for AOE spam or speed running you can't do them." What I would like to see is the philosophy of the mega dungeons applied to a mode for smaller dungeons as well. Think Cata heroics give me a dungeon with raid mechanics my friends and i can do on a friday. Not MoP heroics on cocaine where its just a speed run.
M+ needs to go back to challenge dungeons. Remember those? WoD had unique transmits you could buy with challenge mode tokens. What a greater way to do it.
Personally, the only reason I do m+ is for the seasonal title and mount and that's enough for me. I have zero interest in going back and pushing keys, but hey if that's what other players are into, good for them. But that's the only goal for me in m+. They should do away with affixes altogether aswell imo. Remember the days when dungeons served as a lore platform before heading into the raids? They don't really feel like that anymore 😔
I've also been hearing problems caused by afflicted and incorporeal for newer players especially for how punishing they can be since they come become active at +7. At that point a lot of players are still getting the hang of interrupting / dispelling which is weird to say but its true and along with learning dungeon mechanics. At this stage a lot of players are also just copying talent guides from online sources so they don't know what to move for getting utility abilities such as dispels and hard cc for their talents. I really think that they need to consider moving them to the +14 row swap them with like bolstering and spiteful. It's very easy to see the amount of stress they put on newer healers mainly with healing as bad as it already is; players learning how to heal and then deal with these affixes make it so much harder for them.
It isn't hard to deal with afflicted & incorporeals though, but does make healers nervous even though other players can help lighten the load off the healer, so the healer can focus on keeping people alive. I help out playing my monk with detox / paralyze, my Druid with remove corruption, my dh with imprison etc. Plenty of others know by now how to counter those. Bolstering and Bursting I'd say be harder for healers if the affixes were reversed, cause at a 7, many players are still gearing, and it's not bad for a healer with a 402 ilvl to handle if they just gotta deal with incorps & afflicted when others can help out.
@@RandoCDN87 But see thats the problem is at the level where it's introduced a lot of players don't have the awareness to hard cc incorporeal or dispel afflicted mobs especially dps players if they are new ( this really isnt an issue if you have players rolling alts in your group). I'm not saying the affixes itself is hard cus both are a joke really if you have any secondary dispels or hard cc's in your group but if you have newer players or less experienced people these affixes make early keys way more difficult to learn for players and give healers an awful time normally. Also I'd rather see spiteful and raging be swapped with afflicted and incorporeal.
Find a way to attract old players back, its all hardcore people that burned out because there was not enough post reward coming in to a new expansion for completing top of the game. Too much "starting over" feeling
Head to squarespace.com/bellulargaming to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain using code BELLULARGAMING. Today's video is sponsored by Squarespace.
Mythic plus was the only thing that made WoW worth playing.
Thumbnail image looks like John Cena...lol
The fact that M+ has had a recolored ground mount for their reward during the dragon FLYING expansion has bugged me the whole time.
Ground mounts will always suck unless they get an equip that let's them fly
@@richardshiflett5181 why do they suck.... not everything mount wise revolves around flying?!?!
@@darthraider7935because there truly is no practical use for them outside of very niche areas. A lot of my favorite mounts are non flying, so do you know what that means? It means they don’t ever get used lol.
THIS SO MUCH!
they really need to rethink their mount system. I'd reckon all they really need would be to add a special visual effect that looks like they're running on a sheet of magical ground, mist, clouds, etc. Presto, ground mount can be changed to have flight enabled.
Water Mounts? They can just swim through the air, the same way how players did whenever the mount visual bugged out when using flight paths and other scripted flight scenes. Throw a bubble of water around them or something, doneso.
I don't want a time trial mode that is about massive AoE pulls.
I want a challenge where the group and I methodically overcome small and big obstacles. Something that requires skill in execution.
I don’t mind mythic+ but I miss the old style of dungeons where you actually took your time.
I feel so bad for the art team. They design such cool dungeons with so much detail only to have players fly through them as fast as they can.
They don’t even feel like dungeons anymore.
I agree with you!
It would be nice to see a slower paced version of it. Don't ask me how could they achieve that 😅
It's gotten to the point in which new players quit the game because people treat everything like mythic+, even in Timewalking dungeons and leveling dungeons below level 60: the tank tries to pull in literally the entire instance which is stressful for people who play slower classes with very little to no speed buffs and especially for newer healers who can't catch up. All it does is give newer players the impression that the game is some e-sport rather than an mmo.
I mean none is forcing you to push mythics+, I know plenty of ppl just playing casualy for the lore doing heroic dugneons and LFR
I remember the tactics, the teamwork and other things that went into the dungeons. I remember doing dungeons for the rewards of that dungeon, not because it was the key that I had.
Why was the old system such a bad system? They could have made M+ just harder difficulties, and so people could run dungeons for the gear they wanted like they always did (and then they could do higher difficulties for better gear)... but everything has to be made into an e-sport with Blizzard, and it's ruined aspects of their game.
One of the reasons I like playing healer is if someone is a shit head and ruining the leveling experience for others I legit just let them die lmao. Tank or DPS. Doesn't matter. If they act like a jerk or don't listen to others in chat and tune everyone else out or heck if they just vote kick someone for making a mistake or not parsing in freaking leveling I just hold up the group or leave and make there time more annoying.
I'm petty like that toward jerks.@@abyssalserpent3679
If content forces you to want to reroll your class, something is HORRIBLY wrong. One thing that is a personal rule of mine set in stone for years in WoW is that i will play my class because i enjoy my class, and anything that insinuates that i should reroll is a game problem that should be fixed and not a "me" problem
And theres the rewards part where M+ is a stressful clusterfuck that gets to a point you start questioning if what you are getting out of it compensate for the mental trauma
Only your EGO forces you for anything.
I mean. Any spec and class can clear anything. If you can't handle someone else doing it slightly faster or dealing slightly more dps by the end of the run then that's a player issue lmao.
Just play the class you like the look of most and enjoy the rotation of the most.
Clusterfuck especially for healers. Sometimes it does make me wonder if the juice is worth the squeeze. There needs to be more rewards besides are very generic lame mount.
yeah bro go find groups of +15 that will take you as a Survival Hunter or Frost Dk Spec Maters is nor a you issue same in PVP some specs have way more syergi with each other then others and some specs performe better then others u try to climb as a Frost DK in pvp and see how much fun you will have unless u play with some buddies but enything LFG will reject u@@MilkshakeGuruTTV
@@inmysoul7I disagree. My main and alts are around 2500-2800 yet they all struggle to get into keys but my mage who has one of the lowest io can just automatically get in keys
I miss the old days of walking into Ironforge, seeing a guy standing on the bridge in some high level ultra cool transmog set, and I wanted to BE that guy, to BE as cool as that guy. Now.. that guy doesn't exist, that moment no longer exists, that feeling no longer exists. And it will never come back. Honestly, I dislike M+. Over the years, Dungeons and Raids have moved from cool fun things to do at level cap to waste a few hours with your friends on the weekend. To high meta, grinding numbers, high stress, "You aren't doing enough dps, you can't play with us..", gameplay which drives OG players and casuals away. We do NOT want to spend our few hours of gaming being screamed at for not doing enough dps, not making timers, and not finding good groups for this content. I play Druid because I like druid, I don't want to be shamed for playing a class which isn't the new "meta" for M+ for that particular week. Blizzard has painted themselves into this corner and I don't think they will be able to undo this. They have moved twords this for years, and as a result, OG casual players have been left behind more and more.
Very true actually. I feel the same
Feel very much the same. No longer about the fun, just the numbers. Great for some people but not everyone. If I want it to be just about playing the numbers, I can go to work.
I would prefer tactics over timer. Not sure it would pass at comunity at large.
Sadly that will be detrimental to pugs.
As soon as those tactics are established it's speedruns again. Timers will never vanish.
It’s ashame because mythic plus was sooooooooooo fun in bfa 8.3.. I think with all the new dungeons and new changes to like frost mage being glacial spike focused like with no ice lance bfa build I think we will have a good next season
I would prefer no timer. The timer is only there imo to make an esport that no one cares about
You just summed it up so well. I care so little about Mythic + that I actually got into PvP instead XD
The problem is the timer, and the associated punishments. As a tank, you pull carefully at the beginning to check how the group is performing, the DDs find it too slow, they pull more, the healer can't handle it, the group wipes and the key is gone. Good game design really. End of season, and players *still* miss crucial mechanics. And I can't blame them. Each trashpack nowadays has more mechanics that you need to know than the actual bosses. You need a PhD for each dungeon. It's a mess. Make it hard the way it used to be back in TBC with heroic Dungeons. That you have to use tactics as a group. That you have the time to prepare your strategy. It's all about the timer and on top: the rewards this seasons suck. You don't even get a nice reward for enduring all of this...
I often wondered if M+ would be better without a timer. The timer creates a lot of problems. You need classes that have fast burn damage, short cooldowns, CCs, BL and so on. If it would just be an endless scaling you could again be "using what you have" instead of "bring what you need". In the old days you tried to play the dungeons with what you had and not bring what you need (at least most of the time).
Agreed. I realized the only fun I was having was seeing how hard I could carry groups as a prot pally. When it comes to pushing, it was so hard to find a competent group. I was grinding aspect crests to gear up and I found myself falling asleep at the computer m+ had become so boring
I agree with the no-timer approach. In my opinion, while M+ is fun to me, it would be better if they just got rid of the timer and made the dungeons harder. During TBC Classic, I was surprised how hard some of the dungeons were without any affixes, in some cases comparable to +20 key moments. They should go back to making the dungeons a challenge that isn’t time-gated so players can strategize and work their way through.
totally agree! btw. i love them burning crusade heroics.
@@Electric_ Shattered halls with inexperienced group... was a death trap ;D 20+ runs now compared to that seem like a breeze
If you eliminate the timer, it opens up the oppoertunity for devs to create actually interesting dungeons with more intricate pathings, more variety of mobs and bosses, and with that, more variety of comps.
I think it would be a good change.
Literally nothing bad would happen if they remove it. If people want to speedrun, and they find that enjoyable, they still can, and have that tracked on raider IO or whatever for bragging rights. Classic players have been doing it since before it even became official. Speedrunning community for many games is alive and well, and there's no official rewards for any of it from the game companies.
They can even introduce scenarios into the dungeons that have a sort of soft enrage , hidden timers which would be really fun... like dps the gate and hold off the adds.
And... Whats the point of Mythic +, if they do that? They can't delete the timer. Where would be fun of challenge? The problem is balance, they spent more time in Dragonflight for reworks, than on dragons...
Get rid of the timer more ppl will be doing m+
@@jakubgniadek4234 do you have no imagination? Obviously you just change the reward structure and the penalty system. You beat the dungeon you go up and maybe get an extra piece of gear. The quality of gear and/or amount of gear goes up with the level of key. You don't, you stay the same level, and you can decide if you want to go down voluntarily. Some people might just want to stay at lower levels and enjoy that. Those that want to push can go higher. They can adjust how many levels you go up at a time. Or instead of time they could limit attempts per boss? Its not rocket science, and it seriously mitigates the meta comp problem, and would probably provide more feedback to blizzard on which classes or specs are underperforming and why, since players would do less self-selection for meta comp.
Why in gods name are you advocating for the current broken implementation of this system? It is easier to change the system than to try to balance the classes just for this specific system.
I never cared for M+. Gets old running the same dungeons over and over even if it’s new dungeons each season. You also got people that leave keys and waste time.
M+ is not content in my opinion. Just seems like a terrible system Blizzard implemented and keeps saying it’s content for something to do in the game.
I’d be okay if they just got rid of it. Just make it like the good old days. You run your dungeons and then go raid don’t have to worry about running a higher level key just for a slightly better piece of gear each time. Gets old so fast
After getting screamed at as a healer during M+, I was done.
My last M+ was Underrot during BFA on resto druid.. Got screamed at for not removing a disease.
Imagine being this soft.
@@jasonalbert530 imagine putting up with toxicity in your free time
@@stoutside you consider that toxic? Holy shit you're sensitive
@@stoutside That is why I quit WoW "free time" is for relaxing for me. If I wanted to get yelled at I would get a toxic GF lol.
the timer heavily punishes the group for any mistakes and forces the entire dungeon to be treated as a single encounter. No time to plan ahead, no time to drink, no to time to explain things to new players, just go go go! Not to mention the trickle down effect its had throughout the game of skipping entire sections of the dungeons. The game really flourishes when its less focused on pitting the entire community in competition against each other for different ratings and scores, let the mmorpg be one.
Yeah thats the concept you got it at last.
@@inmysoul7 ??
@@Apathina once the key starts there is no time to really communicate and putting in lol style pings isnt the answer imo, id rather not do it then if it remains as it is... healer job.... healer supposed to... yawn.. why make it a job?... i beg to differ 😂
Right because spending 7 hours in BRD because some clown keeps initiating the escort encounter was really the pinnacle of dungeoneering. /eyeroll
M+ is far from perfect, but until you start reaching 20+, there's no need to try and be ultra perfect about everything. It DOES demand that everyone knows their kit, understands mechanics and affixes, and treats each encounter carefully and pulls their own weight.
@@Sanxioned1 so far into the matrix, you cant think outside the box and to the future... things dont need to be like the past or like they are now... introducing fun social rpg elements would bring people back into the game imo and m+ system without a timer could be it. Relearning mechanics and what everything does as a healer every season is soo boring... id much prefer to engage with mechanics that are clear, and obvious so you can pick it up quickly while doing it rather than reading extensive guides.
M+ is toxic AF. Back in the time when I did it I felt like i was starting to get exhausted of the game. But when I stopped, my will to play the game just increased. There are other ways to enjoy the game without being competitive.
Tank makes a mistake and two people in your group say something and boom they leave, key is dead. You can also replace tank with healer in that sentence. Rinse and repeat. I can’t play nearly as much as I could have in legion. I struggle to get invited to +8’s as a 432 enhancement shaman because my IO is low (due to being able to run mythics maybe one day a week or every other week). Been playing since vanilla yet person hosting the key never looks at all my older aotc raid achievements(yes I’ve even resorted to doing that to show I do know how to play and have experience),and they just think I don’t know how to play because of my IO score -_-
I'm in the same boat with both of you. Feel like I would need more friends to be able to get into it..
I never liked M+
it fundamentally strengthens the "go go go!" mentality of optimizing things to a fine point in an MMO.
To me an MMO should be "you can do content by playing just average or below average" take it easy, build a community.
The point is that the Elitists *should* be the exception to the rule, not the norm.
When you turn an ENTIRE player base to only think in the greatest optimizing to wank off of? It breeds and festers Elitists
It makes Elitists become a requirement, now in the thousands, even millions
Then you see byproducts of them trying to one-up each other
With one of the symptoms carrying over that the average person has to do 20 button rotations because the Elitists are bored and that's the _bare minimum_ they need for their game, when they're doing 30+
@@shiningarmour6805 You have very valid points there. I don't dislike M+ but I would like it better in a way where the timers wouldn't be such a huge emphasis and instead it would just be hard via mechanics etc so there would be less of a go go go mentality. I know this is not a popular opinion though..
This is the game that poisons like raid io and its cultists created. If there is a hell created by those who make M+ and helped the game reach this state, it is in this that everyone who said yes to this depraved game mode must live happily. Have Mercy.
If M+ is a pillar of Wow, then the house needs to come down.
M+ has never been and will never be what made me love dungeons in MMOs. So can't say I'm sad to see that the feature appears to be struggling.
Personally, i've never been a fan of M+, too gimmicky
It always felt like an artificial extension of content, much like the double raiding back in Wrath.
Thats pretty much my feel of it. Never liked it.
Facts
I prefer it over raiding, it’s annoying as hell trying to get people together in a certain time frame, if I wanna do a dungeon i list my key get four dudes we go
Yes, exactly. But the modern gamer is too stupid to understand this. If they just stopped accepting reheated leftovers content and started demanding quality then things would change, but instead they gobble down the literal shit and try to tell the rest of us it's chocolate.
@@DarkScreamGamesOr they just enjoy different things than you do.
The M+ experience begins at the application stage. If your class isn't a meta class or doesn't bring the needed utility, you are already discriminated against. So you spend way too long in town with nothing to do (world content is dull asf) and potentially may not even get to play the game at all. There's just way too many constraints and requirements you have to have to form a M+ group: gotta have a brez, gotta have a lust, gotta have this and that and that for X weeks. Oh hey, the classes that bring all those utilities also do the best damage too. Wow, such balance.
Afflicted and Incorporeal are garbage affixes added to S2. They are mosquitos that you have to swat (and have classes that can deal with them) so freaking often. Affixes don't add fun, only frustration and annoyance. "Push" weeks are considerably more fun to play than "dead" weeks.
You are wrong about M+ experiance. You are correct about affixes!
@@inmysoul7 I would disagree. They are correct about the M+ experience, and especially from the +2 - 23 range. I have way too much experience not being invited to most things above an 18 with a 2900 io character that isn't meta spec.
@@inmysoul7Okay, tell us HOW he is wrong about the M+ experience? I’m waiting.
Yes, agree 100 %
Correct. I still remember the Pandaria design for hunter, where if you knew your class and put in time, you could literally bring ANY needed utility - lust, dispell, brez, melee debuff, snare... The trees we have now were gutted because they added constraints that make free choices impossible, limiting choice. They should give us a toolbox to know and pick from for a run, and then make it our responsibility to pick correctly and rise to the challenge. Instead they try to pump the "mobile stats" (characters at cap, keys started, etc - things that board morons will understand and be able to compare against other "products").
The last M+ I did was in Legion. It's something I don't even bother to interact, since it's constructed in a way that only allows power players and no way for new people to get introduced to.
False you cant easy get into it but it demands some work from.your side mate. Like know your class know whats going on in the dungeons and how to deal with affixes. You can get in to it like any other content in wow but maybe you shouldnt go in a 10+ if u never did m+ before.
In Mythic + Everyone should get a peice of loot each run
It's about time someone finally addressed how terrible the seasonal rewards for M+ are.
I personally think that WoW itself is just terrible. Blizzard did everything to kill the community in the past by implementing stuff that supports toxicity. The game is all about gearing which ends in exponential damage increase. Classes are insanely imbalanced and support abilities like br/heroic still bound to characters. You have your max gear within 1-2 weeks and after that it is all about weekly choires / gambling chest that does not make any sense chasing for. Also it is not worth to spend any time to grind that gear because next patch it is all useless again. Also with every patch all old content is killled again. Not to forget they expect people to do 8 dungeons even after years within one season. I have no clue why it is so hard to give us just all former m+ in a weekly rotation just for fun instead of annoying affixes you require special classes for and most of the time the tank or heal is the guy caring for affixes only.
It has always truly disgusted me how m+ does not at the very minimum get a “unique” (recolor) of the tier armor set like pvp. We need rewards that are on par with that of MoP and WoD challenge dungeons not to mention how good sets such as the primal elite set from WoD season one is. The lack of both quality and quantity is inexcusable for a game as large as WoW in my opinion.
@@immatoll4375there is a decent amount wrong with your comment but at the end of the day it seems like you really just don’t enjoy the game anymore so I’m sorry for that
it's been addrssed since shadowlands
I hate M+, it teaches bad player mechanics or rather severe lack of them. Groups that are playing the clock rather than the content and not working as a group, its all about the timer
Exactly
how does it teach bad mechanics if you have to perform perfectly at higher keys to be able to complete it?
Just because it's a different gaming philosophy from the one you subscribe to does not mean it is inherently "bad". I like the timer but I understand it isnt for everyone, nothing ever can be.
@@armiedvalentine6056I think they're talking skipping stuff or lambasting people for not playing the most optimal build
@@codycurtin2295 Problem is, you either play M+ or you just don't have rewarding access to small group content without a timer. They should just introduce an alternative so the players that like the timer stick to it and the ones that don't, still have a way to enjoy dungeons.
Another thing. The moment my friends quit i stopped (pugging is a disease).
Finding people is HARD (at least for most of us). you get discouraged/demoralized pretty fast and just stop playing.
I know people hate things like LFR, Solo Shuffle, RBGs "shuffle" (lol) (i used to hate em aswell) but when you play by yourself its suddenly a good option (if the younger version of me could read this lol, i was a tryhard, very competitive player.. but then life happens). The main reason people leave the game is because of this. WE NEED OPTIONS. I don't want to stop playing but i can't find reasons to stay.
Not having friends in game, queues and elitism kill the mmorpg experience.
Yup, I still wanted to play but everyone moved around or stopped and I still wanted to raid and PVP. I did do M+ in Legion every day for two years but don't like what it evolved into and just stopped and also stopped playing for two years.
Solo Rated RBGs next expansion will be a godsend to me along with just doing LFR and open world content. I will then dip my toes back into pugging normal and heroic raids.
@@Turbotef This 100%
I greatly enjoyed Mythic + in Legion as it was just the right size for my group of friends. The affixes that came slightly later however made it not fun at all. Harder, but not necessarily more challenging, just more frustrating.
Legion had way more variety and some classes even had break points when they'd hit a certain level of mastery or spell power, which allowed more flexibility. The homogenization that is always pushed is what allows for these "God comps" to come about. Having some dps, healers and tanks be better at different types of content really adds to class identity and allows for different comps.
If they would just release a Legion server I would be very happy.
Also all the dungeons were sick
It was fun instead of feeling like a shoehorned e-sport. I will always view Legion as the pinnacle of M+. My friends and I never found it boring or tiring. Was always a good time just blasting mobs in high keys.
The big issue for me when pugging mythic plus as a tank, is that if I'm not running THE optimal path when I havn't run the dungeon in weeks, months or years, people will cuss you out and leave. I'd rather learn it by playing, not adhere to some guide that changes each week.
From its moment of inception I hated Mythic+. For me, it was the absolute death of the dungeon format, because I knew it would entirely replace the standard endgame 5-man content. The whole idea of rush rush rush beat the arcade timer aracde zap steam-along is the complete opposite of what used to be a relaxing strategic 'night out' doing a dungeon with friends.
Classic is online and have lots of people go do it there!
"I knew it would entirely replace the standard endgame 5-man content" to be fair this really didn't exist before M+
There never was endgame 5man content. It dies every xpac since Vanilla the moment raids are opened.
@@inmysoul7 What an original response. The modern game can actually appeal to people like me as well, you know. Mythic+ does not have to be the final word in engame dungeon crawls.
@@williamarthurfenton1496 No modern wow its different it cant appeal to you thats the fact. The experiance you seek is in classc wotlk or classic era.
Easiest fix would be to just remove the timer from mythic+. I really do think it would solve a lot of problems including problems those of us who pug m+ have due to work or not having an active guild.
I agree, in part. It would be cool to promote a timer-less system as an additional method to gearing. Maybe the chest drops less loot or something, idk, to balance it
Easiest fix is for you to unistall tbh.
@@inmysoul7 how about they'll do that when you dig up a dictionary and learn how to spell
This would be fine for low m+ below 20s, but how do you seperate it. My group could do over 30s with no timer. It would simply be how high can we play with mechanics to live through sections. It would also have no life span. Dead just like heroic raiding is two months into the patch is what m+ would turn into.
So take away all the competition from m+? No thank you!!!!! We need the timer. If you don’t want to be timed, don’t do it!!! Easy. But don’t ruin it for those of us who only play wow for m+. That’s so selfish.
In answer to your "bring the class not the player" section, it is one of the real reasons I checked out of the game. My group had pushed me out of feral druid and into elemental shaman....because "all ranged is the way to go this season" [my guild leader statement] So here I was pugging....or not on my feral druid. I would get kicked al lthe time cause the group soon realized I was not bear or moonkin and I was lucky to make it to +13 before i just never resubbed at the end of August. This is more than a god comp situation, this is a casual one as well. Where if you find groups, you better hope they don't pressure you into anything. Another note: my sister LOVES BM hunter and mained it all through season one. She left when she was forced on to shadow priest BEFORE the start of s2, beefore the god comp was even built and dominated. This game has gone from having fun to meta BS....and I cannot take it anymore.
Yeah, sucks that the game does that, but also that guild leader sounds bad for forcing specs... unless maybe you are trying to push mythic raids or something super hardcore I guess.
Form your OWN groups and stop crying.
Bro lol pugs will take anybody in a +13 what are you talking about
@@NaTodai Guess you haven't been with the pugs I have been with then.
@@ironfist7789 Nah nothing like that. Guild won't even touch raiding.
Coming from classic tbc / wotlk I thought when I would jump into dragonflight M+ would be like the unnerfed heroic dungeons of TBC which were some of the most fun I’ve ever had in dungeons. The mobs could even one shot tanks so you had to CC the hell out of every pack. Carefully pull, DPS down asap while keeping other mobs cc’d and so forth. It felt very satisfying and rewarding.
I think m+ timer should be only for leader board. As long a you can complete let the key skill up and get loot
i think the timer is fine the way it is now because it rewards mastery over the content, , maybe just dont deplete the key if we dont time the dungeon.
@schmooplesthesecond5997 both comments are good. No timer would be more welcoming for new/casual players.
@@schmooplesthesecond5997 In theory timer is good, but irl it leads to toxicity and elitism. Players want only the most effiencent way, which means the best classes, players with highest scores..etc. I would totally delete the timer and maybe introduce some soft enrage mechanics in bosses, like in raids.
@@deanfromhungary It's not even because it's the most efficient way, it's because the cost of failure is also too high. When failing punishes you like M+ does, you are going to take the best possible crew into each dungeon to maximize your chances of succeeding.
The toxicity really is horrible amongst pug groups. Groups that have one unfortunate mishap but otherwise have a very clean run seem to always piss off that one person where even if you’re at the end, they leave because you’re not timing. Can’t change people though so what’s there to do? :/
Have a queue system and punish people who do that
Dont play, that s what i did.
@@benjaminghazi787 Wont matter, M+ is designed to be competitive. Competitive games push people toward a certain mindset. That mindset breeds a toxic mentality. Doesn't matter if it's M+ in wow or any other competitive game, you'll see similar things, and that is what has mainly ruined wow over the past decade in all areas of the game.
@@deanc6664I would like to give your comment more than just one”like”
It so toxic people care about damage done living their mom basement
You can't even hang back and admire the work the art team puts into the dungeons since we're on a timer.
Well, you could just, ya know jump into a normal version of a current dungeon, or go fly into any of the older dungeons ANYTIME you want if you want to admire the art teams work.
No one's stopping you.
@@Apathina What reason? to get your Ilv high enough to skip them? pretty pointless content.
Just jump into a regular dungeon lmfao, M+ isnt designed for you to just sit there an admire lore thats not the point.
ahahah the people on this thread just gave us a glimpse of why people aren't bothering to do M+ anymore ahahahahaha "It's not for you. just quit" hahah then the majority quit and all we have now is a downward graph
@@jextra1313 but I thought you only cared about the art 🤦♂️ turns out all you care about is ilvl. Get this nonsense about not being able to appreciate the art out of here what are yall talking about.
This resonates so much with me M+ just become so over bloated with pain points like the original vision of the legion M+ got lost
That happens when you OUTSOURCE your game to Devs who dont even play and rely on TWO GROUPS of PAID MYTHIC RAIDERS to tell you how to craft Dungeons....
I primarily do m+ for my endgame content, very rarely raid, but there is one major thing you glanced over in this, are the affixes as a whole. You did talk about the shuffling, but just get rid of them, or at least provide a benefit for actually dealing with them correctly. They're one of the primary reason healing is at all time low point for m+, because most of them (if not all) are thought to be "a healer problem," and if they provided a "kiss/curse" (as I've heard some folks refer to it), more DPS would look to help with them. For instance, properly dealing with an Incorp or Afflicted grants that player a 5-10% haste buff for 20 seconds. Successfully "unentangling" yourself grants you a 20% speed boost for 10 seconds. We finally have a great expansion for alts, but dogsh*t affixes make them so much less enjoyable to push into anything above a six & you have to deal with them.
The other large issue I have, is how god damn complicated m+ has become as a whole. Not only are classes becoming more difficult to play with 10+ MANDATORY key binds, and ~15 more things you should use, but you have the actual dungeon itself. Every boss has become a mini-Raid boss, which I get it, is the point. But there are too many mechanics, bleeds, curses, etc. throughout each run & too many "you have to deal with this while you have to avoid that's," to make me want to keep coming back for the chance I might get a drop at the end of the run; which, let's be real, won't have the right secondary stats anyway.
yeah, most class design arent friendly for new players at all. U get overwhelmed by the buttons so much that u forget to enjoy the game
This made me think of doing M+ in Legion, no one interrupting interruptible damage that comes with a debuff, and blaming me for the fight going bad. Gawd I don't miss that sort of thing.
this was perfectly worded@@adrrianpor6038
Ion being the stubborn fool he is, specifically stated they don't want to add any positive elements to affixes in his interview with I think Bellular or whoever it was. That should tell you all you need to know, this shit is never getting better and it explains why all the new affixes they make are worse than the ones before.
Bro, you should just play heroic.
Biggest issue with the god comp is that it affects people in lower keys who have 0 BUSINESS trying to min max their run. You denying someone outside of that comp in a +10 isn't going to make or break it. However, as we know, lower ends of M+ are cesspools as it is a bunch of people who lack the skill to push higher keys, but rely on what is happening on the high end to inform their decisions
Yeah in SL where KSM was +15, there was a weird curve where 0-8 were people chilling, 8-14 were people tryharding like crazy, then 15+ were once again people who could clear it easily and carry others and were back to just chilling.
When you make the game nothing but an ALT LEVELING SCHEME this is what you get. Blizzard is CATERING to people leveling ALTS and GIVING THEM PURPLES for showing up. You can have 23 alts but when you CANT PLAY ONE this is what WoW has become.
@@alericc1889 And this attitude, folks, is why I don't M+ anymore. Not everyone can be in the top 10%.
Would like to see heroics being a parallel to M+, rather a means to an end at the beginning of an expansion. Basically, heroics could be Dawn of the Infinite type challenge (or say +12-15) without timers. Classic TBC made me realize how much I enjoy the slow, methodical pace of dungeons like that.
How about instead of doing that, release all dungeons the same way as dawn of the infinite. Introduce them as mythic dungeons with good rewards, then throw them in the M+ pool in later seasons.
.. You'd have people go from levelling dungeons into a +12-15? This comment is everything wrong with the wow community tbh
@@sharpangus8538 basically what I'm getting at.
I had a similar realisation with Classic but also slightly different. I much enjoyed the slower pace of those dungeons much more, but I was missing the more interesting mechanics to do (though retail has a bit too many today). I did however like the simpler spec designs and lack of button bloat and whack-a-mole that plagues retail. My happy place is somewhere in-between classic & retail.
I never understood why they don't just give titles per spec. The way they do it now actively encourages stagnant metas
Augvoker was flat out the biggest problem. There's a reason why devs got rid of support specs over a decade ago. Apparently these devs didn't learn that lesson from the prior devs.
Help me out. I started playing in WOTLK. What specs were support specs that they got rid of? Or was it basically BC to WOTLK when they did that? I've heard a lot about how some specs were just unplayable in Vanilla and in BC some would have one spec brought to the raid because it was the only spec that could do a certain thing, such as ret in BC i believe. In the times I played I don't ever remember a support spec although I do remember specs you would only use to pvp and never pve, such as frost mage.
@@straighttalkwithkyle7947 there were never any support specs, you could go waaaay out on a limb and maybe say shaman for totems and paladin for blessing back in vanilla but there have never been dedicated support specs such as augvoker in wows history
@@jonathanlawrence6868 I pretty much thought so but I want to get this person perspective on exactly what they were talking about.
We've all finished our KS master achieve this season. That's it.
M+ caters for the few elitists but is required for the masses if you want the best gear tracks as early as possible to be most competitive in raiding.
The new gearing system was an excellent change but when you consider you can do hours of world quests and dailies and random activities vs a handful of m+ to gain equal amounts of gear currency.
I hate being funnelled into m+
>season is drawing to a close >people have reached their m+ goals >"Wtf m+ dying?!"
Nah that doesn't make sense.
Not if you main a weak class
Doomers gotta doom.
it does if you play retail.
@@JD-gn1oy
Numbers show that participation for M+ has been dropping.
I haven't done much of M+ which was only really during Shadowlands and I've never been a fan of it. It's a contrived way to earn loot and it breeds elitism. I think there's a right way to do it but the timer forces groups to fly through dungeons at 1000 mph while also expecting you to do it perfectly. That's not fun.
Blizzard just destroyed their MMORPG by focusing on dungon crawling. They could have millions of players with a living open world, instead of that they want their private dungeon brawl competitions which only adress a few. They deserve to lose all their customers for being stupid.
I think M+ is yet another reason I quit. To me and yes this is utterly my opinion, I felt that the whole entire purpose of the game is to funnel you to the end game, so you can do nothing but run M+ over and over again, doing nothing but that. The other “content” was just filler to get your gear lever up so you can, do M+. Not that I think people who like that shouldn’t be allowed to do that, however for me, who would be considered a casual, as I am old have a job and responsibilities, sometimes I wanted to just chill and explore other parts of the game. I started playing and quit all during the Shadow lands, and maybe my assumption is a bit unfair, however that’s what it was for me. Even with the guild I was in, it was, hey I just wanna explore, and they would be like, but then you won’t get your gear, and I felt like, well this game should be called Mythic Dungeon Crawl. Another thing I wish, is that the zones would level you your character, so people who do want to get lost in a past game expansion and just play, can indeed do so. But anyway if anyone reads this, it’s just my opinion. I sometimes wanna get back, however…. Well.
Switch to the Classic! People are having fun playing the Old Content.
This is why GW2 started to pop my WoW bubble. WoW conditions all their players in a way that Gear Upgrades is the only thing worth doing. You don't do anything because it's "fun," you do things because they reward gear, or you skip it because you already outgear it. GW2 has masteries to unlock, Achievments that serve as way to explore the world, interesting things to actually do... I geared my Blood DK up to 440 and basically stopped playing them because I'm not a Mythic raider and there was nothing else to do, but all my 400-430 alts still have "something to do" because they can get gear upgrades. Outside of that... Professions are a mess of items to sort through and mail between characters, World content is stale the second you outgear it, Achivements are busywork and/or boring, the rest of the game is irrelevant when ever new expansion comes out, the rest of the expansion is irrelevant once the new PATCH comes out... In a word, it's tedious. Don't get me wrong, I'm completely stockholmed so I'm not going anywhere, but damn...
I would try to push for +20 keys if the teleport reward was account-wide.
One of the main issues is that it's too punishing and not rewarding enough.
There needs to be community votes for M+. They just dont know whats good for the community.
I haven’t played this season but had felt something similar to the ‘god comp’ issue bothering me as a casual player. I wasn’t even doing high end dungeons (mostly was sitting between +10 - +16s). Every time an update was made to classes it felt like a chore trying to relearn the new ‘best talents’ because anything other than performing at the best the character could output 100% of the time wasn’t good enough for a majority of pug players. I used to enjoy jumping into low level keys to help out newcomers but the elitism was there as well, no tolerance for mistakes was a sad vibe, can’t imagine that being a good experience for anyone new to the game. I don’t know what the solutions is. Maybe an untimed variation where your key level stays the same if you complete it?
I'm still surprised people can enter a M+ 15 confidently without knowing anything about the dungeon or World of Warcraft in general.
I like the idea of a support class. But I really wish they had just made evokers Tanks. I’ve tried Aug and I just can’t get into it and healing just feels toxic at the moment.
I don't think the main problem with M+ is a Blizzard issue. It's a player toxicity issue. Unfortunately, four people end up having to play for 30 minutes with a toxic person because they don't want to ruin a key run.
Separate the gearing from dungeons and the challenge mode runs. Have challenge modes that you can customize like the runs in HADES, set your own levels if you want to challenge yourself and your group with seasonal rewards like in Arena. Keep
M+ its own thing without keys (or just depleting keys) and no timers. If not all that, remove the aspects that just turn m+ into a sour and stressful experience
I honestly stopped doing M+ dungeons in s1 because the affix balance made it miserable to play a spellcaster.
Imo they need to take a look at how they balanced affixes back in Legion, and just bite the bullet and axe the timer.
They should cap gear at M15, and hard cap at M20 (just for achivements and cosmetics) and just balance it in such a system.
100000000% this. The cap at whatever key would be how fast you can do a dungeon at that point. Having infinite scaling is dumb and just keeping people on a hamster wheel and people are now seeing through it.
Cap M+ at 20, after you time a 20 of a dungeon you unlock a special challenge version of the dungeon that is only a single boss from that dungeon with new "hard mode" mechanics that is basically a 5 man raid boss, and the system would be perfect. Literally anything fun to look forward to at the end that isn't the same exact dungeon with 100% more HP
Everytime I come back to WoW I end up quitting again a few months later because sitting for hours and hours in LFG to find M+ groups is not how I want to spend my time.
I feel like this might not be as big of an issue as some may think it is. I don’t think a large portion of wow players are pushing those high keys. I may very well be wrong, but I feel this is more of a 1% problem
It is for sure. People who push keys above 20, when rewards stop scaling, should expect grief and expect the game to become hyper specialized. They bring it upon themselves when doing infinitely scaling content.
@@cabellocorto5586 agreed… that’s sort of what I meant
I used to religiously do at least one M plus every week. But I’ve kind of plateaued at a certain item level. I’ve gotten all the gear I need and for the most part I’m upgraded as far as I can. I could do harder ones higher level ones, but people get more toxic and I’m not part of the God group comp so it’s hard to even get in a group these days even for the lower level ones and I would not rather not spend half an hour applying to all the ones that I can and get rejected over and over and over and over again. And that doesn’t even count all the times where someone just leaves midway through the dungeon, because we aren’t doing things their way, or a small mistake was made because we are human. It really makes you not want to do them
M+ Just harbors toxicity. Bring back Challenge Mode and make it multi-season to obtain all rewards.
Rewards are the biggest issue for me. I don't mind the ground mount recolors, but the fact that there aren't continual rewards (like with honor/conquest) makes it bad
Remove the bloody timer or remove the key deplete thing even if u can't finish it on time
removing the timer would remove the point of M+ however i agree with the key depletion, not completing the key in time should be enough of a punishment.
@@Valvad0ss Yeah retail has sorta become an M+ game w/timer. I think that is why the game is narrowing down more to people who like that kind of thing. I've done it a bit, but can't say that I enjoy it that much other than when with a guild group or at the beginning of a season during the exploration phase. After that it is just something you have to do.
@@armiedvalentine6056 It wouldn't remove the point of M+, it would require a shift in focus of the M+ system. Give harder dungeons; make them hit harder, make CC more important, make positioning more important, make target priority important, make LoS pulls important again.
Mythic+ should be like the old heroic dungeons. You noticed a definite spike in difficulty and it took tactics and teamwork to get through a dungeon... now, it's a time trial and people get pissy at a moments delay (because it does matter).
@@armiedvalentine6056 it wouldnt remove the point of M+. cap gear at 15 or 16 and cap M+ completely at like 25. then at 25 its just a race to see what group or who can run the 25 the absolute fastest. there doesnt need to be a dungeon timer for any level except 25. then when you zone into the 25, there is just a timer for you to see your speed, not to limit you to a certain time. and change the key scaling to just a +2 increase for completing a dungeon and no depletion for not completing. there, no timer required and the game is essentially the exact same as with the timer.
In an infinitely scaling system you are guaranteed to eventually encounter a threshold where things that were previously nice-to-have become mandatory-to-have.
Aye. But unfortunately in this case the actual threshold is nowhere near as low as the level where the community in general already starts to demand creme de la creme or bust. The threshold is scurrently omewhere +/-25ish, but people demand godcomp in +5s.
It's not just about the timer or metas or class stacking. It's also about it being a second class citizen compared to raiders in your own preferred type of content. If you only play M+, then it's way more difficult to progress through and you end up taking half a season just to get the set bonuses let alone the higher ilvl attainable in raids. And they just keep making that gap larger and larger, so is it a surprise that people don't want to play a form of content that's not just stressful and difficult at the higher levels but also gives you worse rewards?
I have said it for years, put Challenge Mode gear and Weapons as rewards for completing 20 or higher keys and the activity will rise. The Carrot on the Stick is powerful.
But removing the timer in general is great suggestions like many have said.
They need to make healing easier tbh, I’d love to play heals if it were less stressful
Speaking as a Holy Priest, I completely agree. I like a challenge, but I don't like being on-edge for 30 minutes trying to spot every mistake and mitigate it before it becomes a run-ending threat, and I despise the moments where I have to play absolutely perfectly with every GCD to ensure everyone barely survives. On top of that, I see DPS missing interrupts, not calling targets, standing in the fire or not doing the damage their gear and spec should allow them to do, making my job harder than it needs to be and causing me to just give up and move on to another game that doesn't take a month off my life every time I start it up.
They don't really need to make healing mechanically easier, just make the actual dungeon mechanics less of a minefield than southern Ukraine. It is easier to tune a dungeon than tune/rework class mechanics because of the ripple effects it causes. And/or just remove the timer/key loss on failure, then a wipe is just a wipe, a punishment in itself.
@@Apathina
Healing is very flawed, with a solid group there is often nothing for you to do.
But if your group is not as solid they just ping pong from 100 to 10%hp constantly, steadier dmg and more rot fights instead of every attack almost killing everybody would solve it.
Can't please em all but considering how many healers quit this season I would say you are in the minority, healing used to be about planning your cds, covering up for mistakes your party made and resource managment, now it feels like a whack a mole on steroids.
they could make more mechanics that reduce dps rather than reduce hp or they need to bake someway for the group to tell if people are dying with defensives up, are standing in shit, are not rotating through defensives, most dps don't even know that they suck because they game doesn't make it easy for them to see it
@@Apathina stress is part of the fun to heal lol
I can only speak to my experience with M+, and this season I have managed to push my rating higher than I ever have before - albeit at the cost of much of the enjoyment I hold for this game. Windwalker Monk has been and will likely always be my main, so I felt the woes of not being part of the god-comp pretty hard. I would argue that if all of the god comp specs are the ones good enough to push such insanely high keys (25-30+), then they dont need nerfs at all. With how aggravatingly difficult and punishing the keys get beyond 20+, every other spec BESIDES god comp deserve huge buffs so they can do the insanely high keys just as effectively. Spec imbalance aside, having ran more than my fair share of 20+'s this season, these dungeons do not need to be tuned to be so outrageously punishing. Why are there so many things that will one shot me out of practically nowhere? Why does seemingly EVERY single mob in EVERY group have a cast that MUST be interrupted in order not to wipe? How is anyone supposed to keep track of the four things on the ground you're not supposed to stand in WHILE not being in front of something that will cleave you WHILE also interrupting AND stunning AND ccing AND dispelling, WHILE seamlessly maintaining their rotation and cooldowns, AND keeping track of affixes? Do they expect us to use crack in order to time these keys? There could be half the frequency of mechanics to be conscious of and these dungeons would still be challenging. Healers need love, dungeons need lots of fine tuning, a lot of outlying specs need a lot of love. I should be more than capable of running 25s, im more than familiar enough with my class, but when unavoidable damage kills me through personal mitigation cooldowns, and doing my rotation perfectly still leaves my DPS in the dust behind meta specs - there's obviously a problem that needs to be fixed.
I do want to play the game, and while I still am currently, I'm near the end of my tolerance for all the bull they throw at us
You are playing wrong. Change spec or class and do the defined function.😉
The most fun I’ve ever had in the game was running M+ during nyalotha. The affix was fun it let you do unique paths through the dungeon. Playing with broken corruptions was so much fun. I would run any key of SoB to get a titanforged spyglass (I didn’t know titanforging was gone). It was still so much fun being in near max gear pounding up low level keys doing like 60%-70% thinking it wasn’t a waste of time because there was still a chance I could get an upgrade.
Yep, stuff like bonus rolls and titanforging provided an additional level of replayability that just does not exist in the game anymore.
Removing WF and TF'ing to please the mythic raiding scene was a mistake. Activision promotes a small group of content creators that parrot their ideals in an echo chamber.
The new talent tree is simultaneously a big W and a big L. Big W because it has some interesting choices and Big L because they had a chance to make WoW a bit simpler but they made it even more complicated. There are way too many buttons, buffs, debuffs and stuff. PvP is impossible to play at good level for new players or even old. Expecting people to know every class important buffs and debuffs to be able to counter them is insane. PvP is way too complicated to be fun for most players imo.
If M+ is in such a bad place, then they need to fix it if the majority are unhappy.
If nothing is done, they'll lose a lot more subs they can ill afford.
It's the timer.
When Mythic+ was introduced, what i wanted (and hoped) for was harder dungeons. The way there was a big difficulty spike between normal and heroic back in older expansions; what i got was a time trial with stupid bonus mechanics that only stress out the group you're with.
Facts and the timer makes the affixes and bonus mechanics very surface level and hardly engaging in any good kind of way/
@@Valvad0ss Honestly, I'd say they should remove the keys as well. Just let people do the dungeons they want, at the difficulty they want for the gear they want. I remember running a few very specific dungeons in Vanilla all the way up to Warlords to get the things I wanted; and when I had those things, I moved on to other dungeons and other items.
Why is that a bad system? Letting people do the dungeons they want for the gear they want?
Mythic+ in it's current state was a mistake.
@@frostmagemarii I also remember in wrath doing heroics and getting currency to buy upgrades! So even running things with no drops for me I could enjoy getting the little boons.
while i hate the timer as well there is really no other way to make it work in a game in wow without timer
@@mentalkitty789 You are getting crests to upgrade your gear every run. higher key=better crests and better gear.
Even though WoW has had PvP type "seasons" for years it wasn't until Mythic+ showed up that Blizzard formally canonized Seasons into retail WoW. Even Raids are now forced into this Seasonal format. Players engaging in the classic versions of WoW don't have to deal with this Seasonal content format and seem to still be enjoying the game.
I'm ksuprised how long it took for the community / RUclipsrs to decide that healing sucks in M+.
DragonFlight's starting healing model is the current healing model.
At the start of DF, I tried out each healer and thought: Wow, this sucks. None cooldown heals do nothing.
Yet, when I watched RUclipsrs talk, they loved it.
Saying things like "Healers have to heal again. I love it."
They removed the whole thing that makes M+ unique every season, there is no point in playing if +2 is basically the same as running +20. Also yeah the ground mount in the flying expansion.
Or just remove m+ entirely since it seems bliz can't balance classes correctly and it seems like a jumbled mess. Pour more focus back into world content and raiding, and gearing up by alternative means like back in MoP/WoD.
👎
Non-CD heals doing very little is the same banana peel they stepped on at the start of Cataclysm.
watch out, PandaTV is gonna try to drown you with the amount of tears he generates over this vid
The game needs so much work that a rework and restart of the whole game wouldnt be a bad decision. Classes are have to much stuff, everyone is gatekeeping because they fear to waste their time because every content became so complex that its impossible for new players to get in. "You dont have X weekaura? Get out of here!" So many things are just wrong. I played wow on and of since OG Vanilla and i really loved it but i cant get into it anymore.
To me it's pretty obvious. Bliz is mostly staffed by raiders and they are focused on their favorite content. At best they just don't care about M+ and at worst they want it gone to try to push more people to raid. Why else would they nerf rewards and ignore all the issues. They admit playing favorites with class balance, it's not hard to believe they would do so with content as well.
You are correct, World of Warcraft is a game created by Everquest raiders to continue to advance that gaming scene. M+ should never have existed, it has given a large number of casuals inflated egos, and crazy ideas that their effort should be rewarded the same and organizing a 20 man team. Even the toppest end of M+ is just casual garbage compared to raids, and should be treated as such. There is no reason Dungeons should be giving rewards higher than open world content. It is a casual feeder system for the raid scene, it always has been, and always will be.
@@DarkScreamGamesMy dear hater you obviously havent played high lvl keys, which they are harder than your no time limit raids.
@@DarkScreamGames dungeons have always given better rewards than open world content. Always. It's the fact that it gives gear that can compete with raid gear that's a problem in my opinion. I can't stand trying to gear a character and looking at a list of best trinkets only to see half of them in M+.
I'm with Psy, I'm just not really gonna play much if I'm gonna be forced to reroll to feed the meta. I also wish for just ONE TIME they would take the "buff, don't nerf" approach to class balance. It's so annoying seeing time after time the current strong class is nerfed to the weaker class' levels rather than the other way around.
I would love to know what percentage of the level capped population does M+, considering how little attention they are paying to it i cant imagine it is that high.
i dont know about you guys, but a single player progression game mode is what i really want from wow. as a casual player, getting into mythic raid is such a daunting task, there is no point pushing past +20 dungeons, the que time for pugs takes too long, and guild raid schedule doesnt fit yours, does anyone else want a single player progression, like mage tower and torghast, but with real power progression? or its just me?
It still amazes me how their solution to OP classes is to nerf them into the floor and then buff other things. It's like they're intentionally giving specs time in the sun. When a spec is OP, why not give other specs that compete with it buffs so they're all strong? If they pull that off, there's no FOTM class, yea, but I think that's an overall improvement. A lot of people just want to play their spec, not be forced to reroll because it (seemingly) intentionally has been abandoned for a season in favor of other specs.
No one is forcing you all specs can do +20 .
@@inmysoul7 I don't play the game these days, I'm just observing. It's been this way for years
@@inmysoul7 You're like in all comments telling people to just not play the game. Maybe you should start playing on your own instead of getting boosted all the time. nap
@@gregorh.3919 Back to your cave gregor.
Totally agree, there's a huuuuge issue at balancing classes, or else they imbalance them to force people choosing a specific class.
I really hate the fact that Blizz has re-shifted hard into bring the Class, not the player for Class/Spec design. It's not particularly fun in Raid and it's awful in M+. Class fantasy is more about how the Class itself behaves. Not the unique buffs and utitlites that either make it a must have or a perma bench warmer. Hard fact is the game is too competitive in PvE and PvP and people have invested so much into their Classes.
Out of all mythic+ keys that were completed, what percentage of those were 25 or higher?
As someone that only just pushes to 18-20 I feel like most RUclipsrs hyper focus on the extreme high end and the impact there, when in reality it’s such a small part of the community.
Finally, someone who is sane in these comments. Im someone who feels "done" after getting all my 20/portals, which usually puts me at 2700 or so. I could care less about my actual rating, I want the rewards. Which caps out at 2500 / 20's for portals. I hate these over obsessivess over the "ultra high end" crazy-ness. Its such a small ass minority of players doing these 27+ keys. I've been greatly enjoying doing M+ on my main and alts this patch - this "Death of M+" bull crap is extremely irritating because it just trickles down to the more casual playerbase
"You aren't allowed to play these spec." is a PERFECT example. I gave up when I got to the point on my Brewmaster where I had timed every +22 on Fort/Tyrannical and 1x +23 key timed. Was sitting at 2960 and could not get into any more +23 PuGs. One dude even told me, he'd take me if I was 3100, but not sub 3k... the time commitment of pushing my own key in hopes that nothing goes wrong each time just wasn't worth it. I also had many friends switch spec or even class to GOD comp.
My favorite part as healer is healing
not dpsing for sure
@@madreh7549 my favorite part is when a dps just dies cause they cant push a few button to negate the damage
The biggest falling off point for me is just the stress. I main healer. I just don't want to have to stop in pugs and go 'please, interrupt that cast. I don't have an interrupt. You need to do that.' Or having people I brought in specifically for a piece of utility (mages with curse dispel in Jade Temple) just... not do it after I told them exactly what I wanted from them and when that needed to happen.
It's worse this season when the new affixes are just more healer affixes, too. Like, cool, more responsibility. I wasn't already paying for people not interrupting and failing mechanics. Now, I've got a bonus mob to deal with that no one else thinks is their problem. (And next season looks even less fun. Can't wait to be stuck in combat with spiteful now that Blizzard thinks I want to play mana management minigames in between packs.)
So, when my group of friends was done with keys, what was I going to do? Find randoms I don't trust to do these things? I already got my portals. I got my recolored ground mount that I've never seen *anyone* use. The only way to get better gear isn't even in this pillar anymore. So, then, what now?
M+ is literally why I quit retail.
Unpopular opinion. Get rid of the timer. Stop adding affixes to punish and add affixes that boost the player. More haste, faster CD recovery etc etc… make it fun
What are you doing?? You gonna make Panda cry again dude.
Were acting like this wasn't a design choice. They've promoted this as the most 'alt friendly' expansion. So of course they want to gate M+ to people have to reroll alts to get the most 'OP' classes. Playtime = $$. If you had players using the characters they enjoy instead, you'd make less $$$
The problem is augmentation is providing 90% of the damage of a DPS spec with 200% the utility of a DPS spec. They need to tune down the survivability bonuses that augmentation provides to be closer to other DPS if having one is not an overall DPS penalty.
TBC shamans be like:
Im on my WoW break too. M+ started strong this season and then it began to drag. Despite last season being extremely frustrating it was still fun to do. The rewards for getting KSM or KSH aren't worth the drag of M+
i never have really enjoyed M+. I cant put my finger on it, but i guess i dont enjoyed time trial content. I liked black rock depths, where its an adventure. not, lets see how fast we can do as many dungeons as possible
So you compare a megadungeon of 2004 vanilla wow with 2023 endgame content wow. Nice
@@inmysoul7 yeah. Because i have been playing since release. Was i not allowed to compare my preferences?
@@inmysoul7 Replace blacrock depths with Tazavesh/Karazhan then.
@@nataku5379 So with your logic you where a better person at 2004 than you are now? Things change and evolve and yes you cant compare a 2004 game with a 2023 one.
@@inmysoul7 What are you talking about? Comparing current to an earlier version of the game is valid, heck that is where classic came from yes? But when i am stating my opinion, i can compare it to whatever i feel like. i gave clarity on my tenure to show how much experience i have had. I miss when doing dungeons didnt feel like a chore.
M+ is a bottomless pit of problems, you have a problem with balancing classes that has plagued wow ever since they downsized the group activities, the same happened when they took focus away from Battlegrounds and created arenas, this hightens all balancing issues in the game and creates frustration in the player base because if "a druid can CC you through a whole fight, why can't another class do the same?" Its the same on m+. Then you have the idea that dungeons were taken away from the raiding learning curve, now DGs are a activity in and out of themselves. As a core raider, it is really annoying that now I hate doing dungeons because "I have to do them for gear" and I cant just keep doing them for fun or just one piece or trinket, it is no longer an activity that would introduce you into bigger groups and thus into the end game of raiding.
Then you have the timer that actually means you have to plow through everything, the less time you spend looking at the dungeons the better you are as a player or a group/The more you can trivialize mechanics the better you are, this happens on raiding now too, every fight has a tight enrage timer, which always means DPSing should be prioritized by everyone the game became "how much dmg can you pull" regardless of the role you chose, if you are a healer or a tank you should be aiming to dmg as much as possible. It is kind of like "you know the choice you made? It doesnt matter, you are actually all DPSs."
I honestly believe that both Arena and M+ are bad for the game in the way they are made and how much they affect the rest of the game. I believe that in BOTH of those enviroments you should have a ilvl cap and pre based set of skills that are universals, those areas of the game should be COMPLETELY separated from the rest of the game. I miss wanting to do group things in WoW. I just dont feel like the game offers me good small group activities that dont involve me feeling like I have to heal, dps dodge stuff and still save the self enttitled people who think everything should revolve around them that are called damage dealers. I dislike DEEPLY that the aspects of the game that envolved cooperation and helping each other now only get you mad when someone makes a mistake, envolves a lot of rage quiting and people being rude all around because someone saw something wrong and died or missed a cut, or plainly just didnt know he was suposed to prioritize interrupting certain skill and now we wiped. People are angry all the time with each other and what made me love the game is simply taken away because everything in the game needs to have an end game and the end game normally means "how fast can you do this".
In my efforts to joim the echo chamber, the timer sucks. Id rather beat my head against the wall than hit 30 minutes and go "oops, you failed!"
Dont play it then go raid.
@@inmysoul7 believe it or not, a raid requires a different amount of people, and is in fact different content entirely
@@dracotoy Dont play raid either ? 🤔
I wanted more challanging dungeons Mythic+ is just "Its hard cause if you aren't a class that can spect for AOE spam or speed running you can't do them." What I would like to see is the philosophy of the mega dungeons applied to a mode for smaller dungeons as well. Think Cata heroics give me a dungeon with raid mechanics my friends and i can do on a friday. Not MoP heroics on cocaine where its just a speed run.
M+ needs to go back to challenge dungeons. Remember those? WoD had unique transmits you could buy with challenge mode tokens. What a greater way to do it.
Personally, the only reason I do m+ is for the seasonal title and mount and that's enough for me. I have zero interest in going back and pushing keys, but hey if that's what other players are into, good for them. But that's the only goal for me in m+. They should do away with affixes altogether aswell imo.
Remember the days when dungeons served as a lore platform before heading into the raids? They don't really feel like that anymore 😔
I've also been hearing problems caused by afflicted and incorporeal for newer players especially for how punishing they can be since they come become active at +7. At that point a lot of players are still getting the hang of interrupting / dispelling which is weird to say but its true and along with learning dungeon mechanics. At this stage a lot of players are also just copying talent guides from online sources so they don't know what to move for getting utility abilities such as dispels and hard cc for their talents. I really think that they need to consider moving them to the +14 row swap them with like bolstering and spiteful. It's very easy to see the amount of stress they put on newer healers mainly with healing as bad as it already is; players learning how to heal and then deal with these affixes make it so much harder for them.
It isn't hard to deal with afflicted & incorporeals though, but does make healers nervous even though other players can help lighten the load off the healer, so the healer can focus on keeping people alive.
I help out playing my monk with detox / paralyze, my Druid with remove corruption, my dh with imprison etc.
Plenty of others know by now how to counter those. Bolstering and Bursting I'd say be harder for healers if the affixes were reversed, cause at a 7, many players are still gearing, and it's not bad for a healer with a 402 ilvl to handle if they just gotta deal with incorps & afflicted when others can help out.
@@RandoCDN87 But see thats the problem is at the level where it's introduced a lot of players don't have the awareness to hard cc incorporeal or dispel afflicted mobs especially dps players if they are new ( this really isnt an issue if you have players rolling alts in your group). I'm not saying the affixes itself is hard cus both are a joke really if you have any secondary dispels or hard cc's in your group but if you have newer players or less experienced people these affixes make early keys way more difficult to learn for players and give healers an awful time normally. Also I'd rather see spiteful and raging be swapped with afflicted and incorporeal.
Find a way to attract old players back, its all hardcore people that burned out because there was not enough post reward coming in to a new expansion for completing top of the game. Too much "starting over" feeling
I think mythic+ has run it's course and should be phased out. Evolve, change, adapt.
👎