Is it worth entertaining the Peasant Railgun in your D&D 5e game?
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- Опубликовано: 23 авг 2022
- The Peasant Railgun is a thought experiment as old as the six-second round. But does it even work?
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I would allow the rail gun in two separate ways in my own game
1- the staff speeds up but once it gets to a certain speed it rips the hands off the peasant trying to grab it next and kills the rest in the line infront of it equal to the damage it would cause the target. This option allows the rail gun but sets a max speed and damage
Or I would go with option 2-
The staff can be moved as far as you want but when it reaches the end that peasant that throws it does so no better then if he was handed the staff by one person. This gives you theoretical transportation of items any distance within 6 seconds which can be fun but no railgun
You either get the game mechanics or you get the physics. Either way is bad for you. :D
Lol now I am imagining a couple mile long line of peasants just passing tiny or small adventures down the line. Gotta get 20 miles away? No problem, as soon as this line of 21,120 peasants line up you will get there in 6 seconds.
@@RulesandRulings Needs a rule that for each interacting person DMG is +1 or such based on strength speed or dex.😅
Heh.
Thought experiments are like polish sausage. They are better when not examined too closely and picking them apart just makes a mess.
My dm has onee rule for crazy things like this. only once, then they(enemys) start using it back. Basically, when ever something wacky is found and used, it can be used only once if used as a main strategy it becomes something the enemies will start using back. Yes X thing could be used to do with large amounts of damage but it can be used back. So crew do you feel up to having to survive the enemies own form of the peasant railgun back at you, go ahead use it.
Borg
Here's something to consider: the Towerhand build of Pathfinder. The Blade Shifter archetype for Fighter allows them to shift any weapon they're holding into a weapon of a given weapon group of their choice. The transformation holds for as long as the Fighter wills it, or for up to one round after they let go of it.
And one of the Weapon Groups PF has? Is _siege engines._
RAW, you can drop an entire goddamn siege tower on your enemies by walking up to them, holding a knife over their heads, and morphing the dagger with the Blade Shift ability. The only downside I've found is that PF has some incredibly BS rules on large thrown objects, so the initial 10d6 of damage is halved for being a non-solid object like a brick or a block, halved again if the enemy is aware of the weapon, and halved _again_ if the drop is less than either 10 or 20 feet, I forget which.
You can drop a building the size of a small cathedral on top of someone and have it do as much damage as a regular short sword, which is nearly as stupid as the ability itself and almost doesn't make the build worth it. Of course, then your enemies also have to contend with the fact that they're pinned under several tons of siege tower construction, and if you're quick enough to climb the siege tower and have another dagger on hand...
Why tons though?
Is there any reason whatever you're morphing to change its weight?
I don't know the rules pretty much at all, but logical thought of mine would be that it would result in a siege tower with the weight of the dagger.
Unless the dagger itself weights tons, which would be absurd density.
Edit: It sure as heck would make for a good bluff. I think I want to see someone turn a dagger into a paperweight siege tower and scare someone with it by threatening to crush them with it.
My approach would either be: (A) seriously come on don't bring that cheese to my table, or (B) OK, the final peasant throws the quarterstaff they were just handed, making a ranged attack roll with improvised weapon penalties and dealing damage appropriate for the quarterstaff plus their Strength....next up the bemused BBEG will cast _lightning bolt,_ frying a chunk of the impudent peasants who lined up so conveniently.
who's gonna let 1000s of peasants line up first anyway
Peasant number 34 took the staff and ran off with it since it looked like it could be worth a pretty penny.
The peasant railgun is an attempt by a smart ass to bend the rules of physics and the rules of the game in such a way that they expect the most favorable outcome of both. They expect to break the rules of physics by saying it's possible for a line of peasants to pass an object down a line for several miles, yet expect physics to remain in place once the object has reached the end, so that it can 'maintain its momentum'. Likewise, they claim to follow the rules of the game by passing down the object, but expect you to bend the rules in their favor despite the fact that the rules say nothing about the momentum of objects carrying forward to extra damage.
It was never a thing in the first place. An interesting thought experiment perhaps, but completely outside of the rules of the game.
would need to give them magnet hands, so that they do not touch the staff (which is now metal) but still push it forward with their action.
so we also need to power their magnet hands, (shocking grasp) and we need to cool the magnet hands off so they do not melt the peasants (perhaps heat resistance spell)
If my players were sinking THAT much into it the I would probably let them have it. They earned it at that point and bypassed several more effective options
If it there is no logical, scientific or lore reason for something being possible, it probably shouldn't be allowed.
I’d argue yes, but you must make a combat roll for each peasant
One action to accept, one to pass. Oops, you can only ready one. Too bad.
Shutting it down in the same language it was presented. Pure game mechanics. I like it.
@@RulesandRulings I would say that is actually a bad way to deal with an "exploit." The underlying problem with this exploit is switching from real-world physics to RAW at the player's convenience. Basically, its forgetting the why the concept of "turns" exist in the first place. This would be an example of DM discretion: multiple, but a non-ridiculous number of passes could be allowed. 30' ft/round is a brisk walk for reference.
The idea that the object can be passed for a mile MIGHT be plausible RAW, but not that the object would have momentum. Rather, the suggestion should be shut down as nonsensical.
Let it work only in chaotic planes.
While agreeing concept itself making no sense both mechanically and irl, I believe they still can be in initiative if it matters. Situations that escalate in a matter of seconds can totally be played as a combat even if they aren't about a fight (not sure it's mentioned somewhere, but it at least it isn't forbidden and it makes sense).
Peasants railgun is allowed once, and only from new players. If a player is smart enough to come up with it without help, rule of cool if once. This has been my Ted Talk
I have a policy i make known in session 0. Any broken shenanigans i will most likely allow..... once for the story. If the party tries it again it will either fail spectacularly or the enemies will learn to do it too. It all depends on how much you trust your players
Fortunately, I do not think the 'peasant railgun' is possible, by physics or D&D rulings, and here's my reasonings why:
Physics: every peasant out of the 1000 peasants needed covers a space of 5 feet, extrapolating that out, the distance needed to be covered would be 5,000 feet total, doing the napkin math of that, the staff/rock/spear would need to cover (roughly) 834 feet per second, or 254 m/s, applying the drag force for a wooden object suddenly accelerating to that speed, it would be experiencing over 19 million newtons of force, which is more than enough to cause a wooden staff to flash ignite almost instantly.
D&D rules: As per defining an action, PHB page 192 states, under 'other activity on your turn': " ... You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action. (...) If you want to interact with a second object, you need to use your action." As per the rules of readying an action (PHB; pg 193) , you need to state the explicit action you are going to take when readying, so you can only use your action to either take the staff, or give it, not both.
This
My DM has confirmed that he will allow us to use the peasant railgun (which is actually how I learned about it), and that got me thinking on how to streamline that. Then I realized that I could put a long line of homunculi (each one just being a hand) into a bag of holding, turning this into a handheld thing. I'm not planning on making this (or at least, not yet), but I don't think I've ever felt such disgust and horror at my own ideas for how to do busted stuff like this.
Anyway, good luck to any necromancers, artificers, druids or whatever reading this who decide to use this idea. I hope some god will forgive you.
This assumes the peasant can instantaneous hand an object as fast as they can grab it. I would rule that if the readied action for this cannot be taken at the exact same time as the other peasents, then it's gonna take at least one second to perform that action. So only six peasants can pass the object within a single round.
Im so happy this popped up in my feed cause I have some friends that swear by it.
You have friends that swear by the rail gun in particular, or just the "Can we have a little bit of physics? As a treat?" kind of shenanigans?
If you can get that many peasants to do your bidding, why not just have all of them throw a rock at the target? Or equip them with basic weaponry and have your own army.
I rolled a nat 20, therefore I get to be the dm for a minute
I would let my players do it but It because its funny and I let shit like that slide
Rolls Natural 19 on persuasion... +10... Well shit guess I ain't changing his mind 🤷
I would probably rule that handing an item to someone takes an action, so does receiving an item
There is a rules reason why the railgun does NOT work. Let's say you have 2000 people ready an action to pass an item to pass a staff to the next one in line. Here the line in the rules that I'm going to highlight: You can also interact with one object or feature of the environment for free, during either your move or your action.
If the person has readied an action, then they already took their turn. The only way to get it to the end is if they hand it off during their turn. However, the next person in line has to receive it (Interacting with an object for free) and then make an action to move it forward. At max it only has as much momentum as it gains from one person to the next, because it makes a very brief pause.
But hey, we can smooth over that with rule of cool right? Well hold on, Rule of Cool only works if it doesn't break stuff in the game world. Okay, let's be real about this fantasy. I convinced 2000 npcs to go to battle (more likely start one in this case) with one quarterstaff among them. Then had them all initialize and get into that numerical order. Well then you are breaking the game world by having the characters look directly at game mechanics. In lore, everyone's turn is simultaneous. Additionally, how long did we have to spend gathering this army. It's far from cool and is slow and tedious to do.
Even if you did pull it off it's gonna do what? 10d20 damage? A trebuchet does 8d10 and has the siege property. It's doing Max 160 damage to a wall ( and does not take 2 miles of uninterrupted space). The peasant rail gun does HAVE to be 2 miles long too. At 1 mile long it only would have ~1/4 of the power (~360kJ vs ~90kJ). Even if you did get the 10d20s of damage to all read 20, that's only 200 points of PIRCEING damage vs a wall. So it's dealing a Max of 100 damage at best.
The peasant railgun is technically impossible, but worse it is awkward and ineffective too. You are NEVER hitting a moving target. You are probably not going to be allowed to line up 1000s of peasants up at any structure because even if they let you, you probably don't have the 2 miles of space to have everyone stand in the adjacent square.
If you did pull all that off, I say poor you. You live in an empty, dry, flat-world. You can go ahead an chip away at that wall. I'll be over here with my Trebuchet out DPSing you.
Whoa,whoa, whoa, if we take away the peasant rail gun how can I use it to INSTANTLY KILL AN ENTIRE PARTY WITHOUT A CHANCE TO SAVE!!! Remember, if the players can do it, so can a DM but better and more!
am bard. rolled 42 on persuasion. fight me
Idea: have your players stand in a circle
have them pass a broom from one to the next until someone fumbles it, they don't need to drop it only fumble so the transition from one player to the next is not smooth.
count the number of hand offs before the fumble.
That is how far the spear makes it along the line before the spear stops because the action was spent not dropping the spear.
you could also roll to see how far it gets before one of the peasants is dot paying attention and drops it.
If they’re going to break physics and the roles so am I, the projectile loses all momentum when the last present throws it and just does regular damage for that object
Well, the peasant railgun is a possible weapon in hands of a CE or LE player...simply use peasants as ammunition in a railgun.
Peasants no. A line of wizards capable of using magic to accelerate it like five all casting catapult on the same object. Maybe.
The problem with the peasant rail gun is it both ignores the rules of gameplay and reality.
If you abided by pure rules, the javelin would deal it's normal damage no matter how fast its traveling.
If you abide by pure physics, the javelin would never get up to speed to begin with.
The entire concept of the peasant rail gun is someone deliberately disregarding any consistent framework and cherrypicking details from both to serve their inane strategy. Neither those who favor flavor nor those who go RAW will be okay with it.
The peasant railgun apies falling damage to an item at the end. No throwing attack is made. The object is left in freefall. It is completely correct rules as written. Obviously not intended, but thats a problem with the action system being silly with time, and rules generally not considering velocity.
In addendum velocity doesnr matter, only the length of the railgun, because falling damage is calculated by height of fall, not by velocity.
@@egoalter1276 That's not even how fall damage is calculated so it still fails.
because its funny
Sure, allow it. If the campaign is of the sort where it makes sense, a lighthearted or semi-ridiculous setting would benefit from a peasant railgun. If you're trying to have a serious/dramatic setting, just let the players do it but calculate it as each pass taking 1 second to perform and none of them add any damage. 6 passes maximum, same damage as if thrown by the first person.
I don't know if this is still a thing in current rules but I remember a similar idea where a character could keep making a 5-foot step and cleave attack. So you line up your peasants then have the barbarian slice through them all in a single turn and also travel the whole distance of the peasant conga line
That was a real in earlier versions. However, the rules part that everyone ignores with that, you are still bound to your max movement per round and can't cross difficult terrain. If you used 15ft of movement to get to the first kill , then five foot step 3 times, you are at 30ft and can not 5ft step again.
I guess conquest paladin has something like this, thought I don't remember details. But you can't move more than your normal speed. We actually had situation in game when an amount of ghosts paladin could kill in a single turn was limited to his movement speed (DM didn't adjust them correctly and it ended up being quick funny ghost-basting; I actually liked it, not every encounter should put tactical challenge).
If they could feasibly set it up then I would agree to it like once, all about good times ya know.
sure, you can ready an action, but all of those actions still take time. If you want a railgun, you will have to roll a Dex check for every single passing the railgun bullet, to see if they pass it along fast enought for it to gain momentum. I just rolled 200 dice (digitally) and even with a DC10 the first, the third and the fourth peasant already fumbled their pass, not to mention about 50% of the 200 peasants.
Yeah, the thing about the peasant railgun is that it requires the DM to not care about the mechanics and the RP. If he cared about the mechanics, he would make it do the same damage as any thrown weapon and if he cared about the RP, he wouldn't let something so world-breaking happen.
There are rules about momentum. Fall damage exists. The peasant railgun makes no sense, but it is entirely correct raw. It is not meant as a viable.strategy, there are much easier ways to brick the system, it is more just an illustration about how ungodly shoddy the rules system is.
Aren't there rules for throwing weapons anyways? The distance traveled before reaching the thrower won't change the throw action.
nah this is one of those silly things that abuses the rules then discards them when convinient, the rod would only move as far and hit as hard as the last peasent could even throw it. interesting idea that you could move an object great distances this way but no it's not gonna railgun.
the peasant railgun is a case of cherry picking between the game rules and RL. In neither RAW or RL alone would it work. RL, you have a limit on how far down the line the object can be passed in seconds, comparable in speed to passing a baton in a relay race. In RAW, the last person does not get any distance bonus for throwing an improvised weapon, regardless of context or circumstance.
It's a novel attempt to transition between rules and RL to get an unrealistic result, likely to trivialize a particular challenge or just give the DM a headache. It sits next to the coffeelock in 'ways of cheating a DM needs to be ready to shut down'. At no point is a DM obligated to humor any circumstance which is not explicity written in the rules. Because RAW doesn't say you can't, doesn't mean you can.
Ok... no.
Ok, ok, ok, the reason I agree the peasant railgun should not be a thing, a mile is 5,280 feet. At 5 feet of reach per peasant, that is 1,056 peasants, or 2,112 for 2 miles. Without getting into the physics of how the quarterstaff, spear, boulder, whatever the thing is being shot accelerates, I would simply remind any player how God damned hard it is to get the DnD party together and multiply that difficulty by 500.
Addressing the physics of the problem, I would tell the players that every single peasant would need to be Hasted. So they would need either 1,056 or 2,112 spellcasters to maintain concentration on every single peasant depending on how long the line is... or they could just get that many spellcasters to use Fireball like normal murder hobos. Way more damage.
I like the idea of just making the alternative option 1000 times better. :D
The best rule is the rule of cool
I'ma steelman.
The campaign isn't a real world. It's a procedurally and statistically generated simulacrum.
So if i can glitch the game's physics engine, the effects aughta occur.
It's the Bethesda approach. If you get enjoyment out of the bug, it's a feature.
Why is this being discussed if there are no rules for momentum?
It doesn't matter if a round is only 6 seconds if the object literally isn't gaining any momentum in that 6 seconds.
This sounds like a reddit joke, not an exploit.
Hell even if were being silly and going "ohhh, but if it happened IRL it would be like this!"
Why are we applying realism to the situation when it would create a railgun and conveniently ignoring realism when the stave would eventually just slip from your hands, if it actually got fast enough to do any real damage it would tear the skin off your fingers, maybe dislocate an arm in the middle of a chain and fly into someone's back.
You know, I think it would be interesting to allow it but make them apply realism to actually performing this insane feat, each pesant that passes the stave makes a strength save and dex check of increasing difficulty at every other point in the chain. There is no damage cap and you can nuke a red dragon if you get far enough but if any point of the chain fails there is a catastrophic failure of increasing severity for each point they succeded so far.
Oh yeah, it is 100% a case of picking and choosing when to apply the rules vs realism. Introducing extra layers of realism shuts it down, and so does refusing to go outside the rules.
I think the best way to handle the situation would be to challenge the assumption that the interaction is trivial (e.g. requires no skill check). I would require a Dexterity check beginning with a DC 10 and increasing the DC by 1 with each interaction. That would mean that you could pass the object a maximum of 20 times or a little more with boni. This rule would fairly cover all non-railgun cases of working together by passing things, but set a upper limit. It would force the last recipient of the object who failed to wait for their next turn to pick it up and pass it on.
Honestly, the peasant cannon is so world breaking but it technically makes sense and is hilarious. I'm not sure if I'd allow it to exist
Blatant abuse of the fictional time these mechanics attempt to simulate poorly. Just because something might be mechanically possible doesn't make it permissible. You can't use physics to propose a thing that wouldn't be possible in the real world because of physics. Logically inconsistent and utterly ridiculous.
I mean if your players can enchant the spear to never be able to be dropped I could possibly allow it. However, I would also make it very costly to make this peasent railgun since every peasent must be given 1 or 2 gold pieces.
okay but why would you let your players ignore the laws of physics. you can give your monk an athletic check to see if they can jump so hard they start to fly in the air but that just wouldn't make any sense, would it?
@@pez1870 depends on how they prepare the equipment they want to launch, or be launched with. If the monk has a gliding suit on he can jump hard and glide, or he could have been cast feather falling on so he can fly quite a bit longer than just a normal jump. If they want to create something amazing the prep must also be adequate.
@@tobb5039 alright you know what? fair. if you can bring 2000 pleasant to another plane of dimension with different rules of physics and make them do what you want. I'll allow it.
Peasant railgun, can exist, but it is spoken of in select tomes, fearfully and with great heasitation, rumored to have been used to kill a god. As such this dark technique, this great weapon, has been made illegal, even sects filled with those seeking immortality or to become gods, would band together to stop the ones as foolhardy as to use this weapon of damnation. But, an adventurer, seeing that a town, nay a country, is about to be destroyed by an unceasing seemingly undefeatable adversary, decides to break this law of existence and calls the cannon forth to end this threat, knowing that by doing so his existence is forefit, as well as the memories of anyone that pertains to him, as to not have a repeat of the use of the weapon once he is no more.
The Peasant Railgun and other tricks like that can be summed up as: "I want to play rules as written until an exact point of my choosing after which real life physics takes over."
Id allow it them to try. But it's not gonna be easy and there will be consequences. (Allot of peasants missing arms with hell to pay and the final peasant still has to beat the AC 😈)
I don't play d&d, but I am a nerd both in fantasy stuff like anime, rpg games, science, and so on. This is an absolutely dumb idea. The peasants would just fumble this and have increasing difficulty handing it off to one another before it even reaches a velocity capable of doing any damage. Two thumbs down.
If my players figured out how to create a peasant railgun, I would honestly let them use it, or at least create a magical staff that serves the same purpose.
In a serious toned game, nobody should even want to 'hack the system' with a Peasant Railgun attempt. If somebody still does, the problem is not the Peasant Railgun, the problem is either 'that guy', or a communication issue failing to get the correct tone of the game across.
In a wacky chaotic game, catch it before it starts or let it happen once. Don't buzzkill after table time is already spent setting it up.
Id allow a lot of things if they can be justified but the peasant railgun is a no.😂