Gary Payton's defense is overrated. Guys like Dennis Johnson, Sidney Moncrief, Joe Dumars and Alvin Robertson were all better on that end of the floor.
KG and Duncan were polar opposites. One was quiet and reserved while the other intense and emotional. But skill wise, they were neck and neck. I’m just glad I was able to witness both in their prime.
Side bar: I’m one of the biggest KG fans out there. But KG on the spurs would be inherently less successful. Don’t get me wrong I’m the biggest fan of KG’s skillset which is an elite, scaleable all-time collection of defense, passing, and shooting. But half of Duncan’s success came from off the court and specifically his ability to lead quietly and be humble enough to listen to Pop. KG would never in a million years let himself be chewed out by Greg. A big part of Spurs culture was selflessness and winning. I think KG would sacrifice and play winning basketball like Duncan but the locker room presence and respect everyone had for Timmy was one of the biggest cogs in the Spur’s machine that I don’t think Garnett could replicate. It’s a Ying and Yang thing. Draymond and Steph, Jordan and Pippen, Kobe and Pau, Kobe and Phil. You need a quiet leader and a passionate one. Pop and KG were cut too much from the same cloth to synergize, and it’s neither their fault or a knock on who they were. It’s just how life is.
Two things can be true at once tho their is no way you dont think that minor issue/difference stops kg of all people from winning bro wanted to win above all else
TP would probably wrestle power away from KG tbh. When Timmy left and TP became kind of the leader of the Spurs, it pretty much went into a downward spiral talking to the media about Kawhi. When TD was there, everyone on the Spurs stayed quiet and fell in line.
Yeah, KG was once my favorite player to watch, after Jordan left the league. I didn't know he was the only player to reach those milestones in the 5 major statistical categories. That's crazy.
True but they still had good players. Not as good as they would be (Tony, Manu) or had been (Robinson) but better than Troy Hudson, Anthony Peeler and Rasho Nesterovic But it is weird to pick _that_ year
David was less than 10 pts. Manu & Parker were too young. 2nd best Spur was SJax. This 03 run is better than any single Kobe or Shaq run. This is coming from an LAL fan. Kobe said it when they lost to Spurs in 03. No excuses they were just better than LAL. That was ALL Duncan.
@@michaelahurtpeeler career backup. David’s last yr he was just good not great defensively, Parker was 20 2nd leading scorer most series Manu was 12 pts off the bench. Or 8 pts in the finals He chose 03 cuz it is a year that ends any argument that they were close. KG has plenty of yrs where his team had a better overall than that 03 supporting cast.
Great video, and just to provide a little extra context: The Timberwolves lost several first round draft picks in the early 2000’s as punishment for an illegal deal the owner made with Joe Smith (2k Generic ahh name). The owner promised to pay Joe under the table if he signed a deal below his market value. Stern found out and docked the team their 2001, 2002, and 2004 picks. Also their starting shooting guard Malik Sealy died in 2002 after he was hit by a drunk driver. So the Timberwolves really had a difficult time building a team during most of KG’s prime due to dumb decisions and a tragedy.
yep this is really the crux of the comparison. kg had the worst team situation ever and duncan had perhaps the best ever, especially with his coach. putting that aside and strictly looking at what they contributed as basketball players, ill take kg. it is super close but the fact that a vast majority is taking duncan shows the lack of knowledge about this debate.
As if Tim Duncan’s energy isn’t infectious. He’s a walking win column. I know KG has the aura.. and it just looks so good and he talks that talk.. but that’s all he got on Duncan.
I think Timmy's ability to make OTHERS perform at a higher level is being overlooked. He allowed others to be great at the expense of his own numbers. Timmy did not gaf who got the stats as long as they got the W. This is what separates them and what puts Timmy a cut above KG.
Duncan is in the conversation with Bill Russell as the greatest teammate in NBA history. In my opinion, Duncan is one of the more humble men to have played in the NBA. He is also very disciplined and extremely self-controlled. Garnett is self-aggrandizing, whiny, overly emotional, and always hungry for attention. Garnet exhibited less self-control than I would expect from a team leader. Duncan made his team of threat for his entire career. Garnett was able to muster two seasons where he contended. I will take the real leader instead of the self proclaimed*every single time. I think Garnet is outgoing and charismatic. I think he knows how to talk to a camera. And I think he and all the other marijuana users now sit and do podcasts stoned nonstop. They promote themselves constantly over social media in order to change public opinion on I don’t see Tim Duncan on social media promoting himself ever. Johnny, this is a super hot take. It is an over-baked take. 420.
Your comment is extremely misguided and inaccurate. KG being more emotional does not mean he was attention-seeking...he was quite literally one of the most unselfish superstars ever. Just go listen to any of his former teammates speak about him. Yes he was loud and intense, but that was just how he showed his raw passion for the game.
I think people forget how much of a choke artist Garnett was he literally wasn't a playoff riser and his game pretty much stayed the same or got worse in the playoffs
@Damianoutlaw No it doesn't make sense that Kg is given credit for his team's success but he's somehow exempted from criticism and don't pretend like he didn't have good teammates
Here's my breakdown of the two. Timmy was better at - scoring - post play - getting to the line - rim protection - playoff raising Kg was better -Perimeter defender - long mid range shooting You could argue that rebounding and passing is a wash. The same goes for leadership ( kg would work better for some players, Timmy with others). Overall I think that Timmy is clearly better. His strengths are way more impactful in a playoff setting. Kg instead had a higher usage, more opportunities to showcase his skill based on his teams' lack of talent. His skills work better in a regular season setting while I think Timmy and Dirk are superior playoff players and almost as good in the regular season. In the end Timmy is like mj, a n.1, while Kg is like Pippen, an amazing all around n.2.
@@donaldf9055 30 point games in the playoffs (Timmy has 36, Kg has 9). It is not that even that Duncan was playing with a Steph Curry who demanded double teams. Additionally, Timmy is the only player ever to match prime Shaq in production (and even outscore him) in head to head games. Timmy averages nearly 30 ppg from 99 to 04 in the games played against Shaq. Timmy was an underrated scorer.
My take is this: KG was a great player on an okay team, and looked better by comparison Timmy was a great player on a great team and looked somewhat worse by comparison. Head to head comparison becomes tricky because of the difference in team success, but I do believe Duncan is better by a hair.
I watched them both throughout their careers and Tim was better especially at his best Tim came into the league from college which did give him an advantage from the jump , and in head to head games he usually got the best of KG I don’t want to hear anything about teams you play with whatever you have.
Sir, it's obviously a damn hot take and many won't say KG was close and it was a BIG GAP......KG also had help. Tim had consistency. There is a different. Don't do that shit. Just because people don't agree with your opinion doesn't mean they "didn't watch basketball" so fucking lame these days with that clone shit.
@@BigWillieDilliemany are casuals, Duncan in fact did nothing better than Kg except for his back to basket game which made him a more resilient scorer/engine in the playoffs where Kg was mainly just a faceup/lob threat. And Duncan was a better rim protector. Kg is better at everything else and fits way better than Duncan in every all time starting 5 everyone likes to make.
lol I randomly put together an all time starting 5 and second string the other day. And I had an argument with a friend because I insisted that KG was as good, if not better, than Tim Duncan
This is a nice video because it's been a topic of discussion for me a few times. As a Lakers fan during the 00s, there was no single player that scared me more than KG during the 00s. He was a menace on both sides of the court both outside and inside, he was a very good passer and was really the guy who could do everything at an elite level. Nowadays, most people will put him "clearly" behind Duncan and even Dirk, but during pretty much all the 00s, Duncan vs KG was a very valid argument, even during the famous 2003 Duncan year, although obviously Duncan had the amazing Playoffs run, and especially Finals series. As a whole, I think it's obvious who has the best resume, we can't really debate that (even if KG is still impressive), but as someone who wasn't especially fan of neither of them (Lakers fan here) and watched all their careers, I think their level is actually VERY close. It's very valid to think Duncan is better, I have nothing against that thought, but I do have something against people nowadays saying it's not even a debate or something like that, because it was most definitely a debate, a very typical debate actually, back in the day... and for good reason. Now, putting my Lakers hat, I also agree we were lucky, in a sense, that we got the Magic instead of the Celtics in 2009. I actually do think we had a chance. They were better than in 2010 with KG healthy, but I think we were also better. As a Lakers fan, I appreciate the easier championship, but as a basketball fan, I REALLY wanted to see that Lakers-Celtics in 2009, it would've been even better than the 2010 series... I think. Now, in terms of 2010, I do think the Perkins injury is a bit overrated. Perkins influence was not that big in my book, as he was pretty mediocre, and they were quite fine with KG and Rasheed inside with Big Baby using most of the inside backup minutes. Inside defense was as good as it can get with Sheed and KG. Also Bynum didn't play that much (and played bad) during game 7, and I just don't think Perkins would've helped much with the rebound advantage that was our key factor. But all of that said, that doesn't take away the fact that 2010 was extremely close and that the Celtics had a very real chance in 2009. It's hard to know if KG would've managed to do what Duncan did with the Spurs, because there's obviously a lot of success there, but I am pretty damn sure Duncan wouldn't have won titles with the KG Minny squad. I think prefering one over the other is fine... but let's not pretend this was not a very big debate for over a decade.
How many Championships did David Robinson win without Tim Duncan? Tim Duncan won without David Robinson. How many Championships did Tony Parker win without Timmy? TD won without TP How many did Manu win without Tim Duncan? Timmy won without Manu. How many championships have the spurs won since Tim Duncan’s retirement? How many has Pop won without TD? Tim Duncan is 5-1 in the finals (a miracle shot away from being 6-0). Tim Duncan NEVER missed the playoffs. All Tim Duncan did was win. He was unselfish, so others got some of the shine, but anyone who watched knew the reason the Spurs were champions. As great as KG is, the same can’t be said for him. He played with great players and coaches and has one ring to show for it.
so kg playing with sam cassell is the same as duncan playing with tony parker and there was never a time in his career that duncan did not have a shampionship level team around him
@@ghengiskhahop2569this is completely false and an absolute lie. Go look up the statistics of '03 Spurs and tell me with a straight face that is a "championship level team." Duncan was the anchor of that team on offense and defense.
I was with you until the last part. Yes Tim did it all, and he did carry at the same point KG did (carrying in 03, and KG won MVP in 04), but it’s not whatsoever like KG could compare to that with his teams. For years, season after seasons, his teams were shit or not far from it. Rarely, it ever, competing. But as soon as he actually moved out of there and went to Boston, he won, and he won big. 09 injury, and then a very close Finals in 10 (much like Tim’s 13 Finals). They didn’t compete as well in 11, but stuck it out to compete in 12, where they got beat by a peak LeBron superteam. Tim started OUT with David, and then quickly got Tony, Bowen, Manu, etc. with him, before eventually getting Kawhi, too. KG had one team for that, Tim had damn near his whole tenure.
@@joecool8290 03 only, and they both went fairly far in their respective seasons. Tim ultimately beat the Lakers and won in 03, although his team was good that was around him, at least good in the sense that they could fit with him carrying (like they supplemented him). KG that next year had next to nobody, and one of his costars got injured, and then they lost to the Lakers. But outside of 03, 98 he had a good roster, 99 he had one and won, 2000-2002 he had a solid roster, 05-2011 he had a great roster, and then Kawhi showed up from 2012-2016. So really like maybe 2 years you could say where it was just ok and not quite champ level (I mean he won, but they were just a bad winning level team). Compare that to KG having 12 seasons without enough help
Webber's basketball skills were on par with KG and Duncan, but his basketball IQ was questionable. Of course, if the Lakers/NBA hadn't stolen a championship from the Kings in the early '00s, I probably wouldn't be typing that.
Underrated, yes. On par with KG and Duncan, though? No. Offensively? Sure. But KG and Duncan are probably are probably both top 5 defenders of all time as well.
"KG carried that team in Minnesota. Tim Duncan had help in his prime" How was Rasheed Wallace there, but he somehow doesn't know about the 2003 spurs? TD did in fact not have help, he had one of the most impressive post-season runs in NBA history.
kg had the worst team situation ever in minnesota, caused by worst team punishment in nba history in 2000 which affected kg for his best years. duncan didnt have a lot of help in 03 but he still had sophomore tony parker, stephen jackson, bruce bowen, and obviously popovich as his coach. thats worlds better than the motley crew kg had to put on his back during his minnesota days
Huge disagree… Tim Duncan has no arguments to be the 2nd or lower PF of all time… longest prime out of any PF, and his peak is also one of the most impressive… especially the 2002-03 season… 04 KG was a hype beast but 02-03 Duncan was just more impressive
I been of this opinion for a few years, I’m glad it’s finally mentioned, this is the greatest example of “situational greatness” which is why I don’t think championships should be weighed too heavily when speaking of legacy, championships is a team stat not a player stat.
Duncan have more help because he leave space and time to Parker and Ginobili to develop. People like to talk about Spurs culture, but that culture was possible because the type of unselfish leader and star TD was.
I grew up in Minnesota when KG arrived, besides Mike, KG was my favorite player. That being said, should'ves could'ves is all well and good, but the championships prove themselves to put TD over KG. I also find it ironic that all of these arguments for KG can easily be slotted for Lebron vs. Jordan. Yet, we all know who's the GOAT.
I feel the debate often times is colored by the aesthetic/iconic/charismatic element of it. Kg was entertaining, charismatic and iconic while Duncan was methodic, consistent and relatively dull (personality wise and game wise). This is why more fans resonate with kg more even if Timmy belongs on a totally different tier.
@@Jonathan-A.C. Jordan v LeBron is not close. both in terms of who was better and where they rank on the all-time list. the gap between Jordan and the 2nd best player in NBA history is the grand canyon. the gap between Duncan and KG is like a creek in your backyard.
@@Jonathan-A.C. Tim and Kevin are literally 1A and 1B! The gap between Jordan and LeBron is literally bigger than the gap between Steve Balmer and the hobo living on your street!
Awesome video, Jonny! You make great points. I especially agree that if KG had a better supporting cast and TD had one that wasn't great, their fortunes would've reversed. Both were great PFs. While I've long put TD ahead of KG, I see a compelling case for KG as best PF and you make a great case for them being equal. Great video again. Have a great one, Jonny 🙂
Bro,Tim won a chip his second year,Robinson was washed up come on, in 2003 Tim won a chip basically by himself robbed of a quadruple double in the Finals (Parker and Manu was no where to be found), name one player that was with Tim for all 5 of his rings.....and when they defeated the Cav Tim lead the team in 4 categories,robbed of a 4th Finals MVP, so no Garnett is not as good as Duncan...
@@samuelhepburn2636 Spot on. I'm so sick of people lying about Tim. And you're one of the few people I've seen mention how Tim absolutely should've won the finals mvp in 07
They initially did that,because he'd definitely be in the conversation as the GOAT 🐐, unfortunately everything is a sham,that Tyson vs Paul Fight confirmed my beliefs, where big money 💵 is concerned the event is fixed..
I was born and raised in Minnesota. Watched KG a lot and watched Duncan in the playoffs a lot. Duncan is miles better than KG. In my experience, KG would settle for outside jumpers too often. Duncan would take it to the basket and get better shots. Swap them and I think Minnesota would have won the title with Sprewell and Cassell. The Spurs would have won less titles with KG.
Miles better is just nonsense KG was a better defender rebounder and played in far worse teams and overall organization for 12 years Duncan wasn’t miles better
@@mashwork6615 I don't know if I'd say KG was a better defender and rebounder even. He was definitely better at leading the team and scoring tough baskets. At least whenever I watched...
Advanced metrics favor Duncan (especially in the playoffs), but let's not pretend it wasn't a team issue with KG carrying that SawdustCoyotes trash. I cringe when people mention Lebron not having enough help playing alongside All-NBA or HoFers, but KG's best long-term teammate in MIN was Wally Szczerbiak. The Twovles is the worst-run franchise ever. They just turned back into SawdustCoyotes by trading a core piece for a protected 1st round pick (irrelevant for a contending team), a garbage player (DiVo is shooting 34% and 32% from 3 in 25mpg), and Randle (one chocker for another).
That bad franchise has now had more success without KG than with him The other players apparent best run franchise has had what success without Duncan?
@@hardwoodthought1213 Cap. KG's MIN made the playoffs 8 times and made the conf finals, where they lost 4-2 to the Kobe/Shaq Lakers. The current Wolves made it 3 times and lost 4-1 in the conf finals.
@@RVered So all you’ve showed is that at worst Minnesota has achieved the exact same without KG as with. KG won 2 playoff series with Minny, Minny has won 2 playoff series without KG. Should we do the same for San Antonio and Duncan?
@@hardwoodthought1213 You're not getting it, KG and TD were equally incredible, but TD won 5 with SA, and KG won 0 in MIN. Why? Because they're a great franchise that _built_ around TD. Drafting a star means nothing if you can't build around him. SA used their expert scouting, management, and foresight to find diamonds in the rough (low draft picks, journeymen, and critical role players). Kawhi - 15th pick, Parker - 28th, Manu - 57th, Bowen - undrafted journeyman, Horry - signed away from the Lakers, etc.
@@RVered So what, did SA just magically learn how to run a franchise in 1997, then forget in 2016? Maybe the fact they drafted the greatest leader in league history, most consistent superstar in league history, and arguably most selfless player led to that? You act like guys like Manu and Parker came out the gate swinging? They themselves are on record saying they succeeded because Duncan helped them, he gave up touches, coached them up, never made their mistakes matter. Why have they turned to amongst the worst franchise since Duncan? They still have Pop, right? You think KG allows them years to develop? Because we have plenty of stories of KG isolating teammates, we have none of Duncan. Not saying KG had better help, but Duncan’s better help is a large result because of him, not his team who has achieved jack shit without him.
Excellent work again my friend! Those Timberwolves team were my gang gang, Laettner was hated, haha but ahead of his time, then Googs, Marbury, Porter, Sam Mitchell The Big Ticket was my favorite until he made my crappy bad Celtics great again haha w/ Dino & Antoine then Billups/Mercer Pitino led
I still say to this day, if KG didn't suffer that knee injury in Feb 2009, the Celtics would've repeated. Forget about that 2010 Finals, Kobe wouldn't have anything outside the Lakers 3-peat.
I for sure think that. Lakers we’re on a comeback and were maybe better then than in 2010, but Rondo also improved (not as much by like 2012, but still), and KG and them largely hadn’t started getting out of their primes yet. I don’t think Kobe and Pau and them, especially without Ron Artest, could actually beat them. They went 7 games in 2010, I’m sure it would be tight if they won again, if that even happened
@@NewGoldie They would had lost to a healthy Boston team probably. Orlando pushed them hard in the finals, except for game one. I know they won in five games , but most games were very close.
Spurs fan here. This isnt a hot take at all. KG won a MVP for a reason. Dirk, Timmy, and KG were all on par with each other during their respective primes.
@@hardwoodthought1213 You can absolutely be a basketball fan without being biased, if you can't that's a YOU problem. SPURS fans are telling yall they were 1A and 1B and yall still arguing, how about actually watching some games from back(since yall clearly weren't alive back then to watch them live)
I remember playing old NBA 2K and live and remembering their overalls were equal or one was slightly better than the other. I always felt they both were equally talented/skilled players but were just in different team situations. Thanks for making me feel vindicated with this vid lol
My counter take: Young Tim Duncan was absolutely better than KG until about 2004. That if Tim Duncan joined the league earlier or played in a more selfish scheme this would not be a debate. I don't mean the typical "If KG and TD switched teams" I just mean putting TD on like any other team but the Spurs and leaving KG in Minnesota.
@@Mattulaak this hot take isn’t bad… I agree that KG looked low key better from 2004 to 2006 stretch but something about how Duncan was able to sustain his prime which extended to about 2009 and than had that one gump up year in 2013 where he’s nearly giving 18/10/3 on elite defense which was that spurs finals run… very good take here
@@MOCskodenit's simple Garnett was forced to Carry In Minnesota and wasted his time there and Tim Duncan always had the most elite role players even Greg Said Manu would be a all star averaging 25 points a game but he's in my system tim was a system player
KG was/is my favorite hooper ever. As a kid will never forget watching him get drafted and thinking how young and cool he was. I grew up in San Antonio too so I knew the greatness of TD. It literally is a coin flip between the two. An honor to actually have seen them in their primes and great vid my guy! 🎉
Why is it that people tend to overlook how Tim Duncan carried the Spurs from 1999 to 2003, especially during his legendary 2003 playoff run? By 1999, David Robinson was already 34 years old and starting to get past his prime. His offensive production had slightly declined, and while he remained a defensive anchor, he was no longer the dominant two-way player he had been earlier in his career. Just look at the stats-it’s undeniable. Then there’s the argument that Duncan had significant help, with players like Avery Johnson, Sean Elliott, and Mario Elie being touted as key contributors. Let’s be real here: none of these players were consistent All-Stars during that period. To suggest otherwise is laughable. They were solid role players, yes, but Duncan was the engine that made everything work. Now, some will argue that Kevin Garnett was more naturally gifted than Duncan in terms of skillset. Sure, KG was incredibly skilled, but this isn’t just about talent-it’s about leadership, resilience, and the ability to carry a team emotionally. That’s where Duncan separates himself. He wasn’t just skilled; he was the cornerstone of the Spurs’ success, both on and off the court. The Spurs weren’t the well-oiled machine we know today until Duncan arrived. He was instrumental in creating the culture that became the foundation for their dynasty. He set the tone, leading by example, fostering loyalty, and inspiring players to take pay cuts to stay competitive. Don’t forget that Gregg Popovich’s job was reportedly on the line going into the 1999 Finals. Duncan’s leadership and performance saved the team and helped establish the blueprint for their long-term success. This is even documented in the 1999 championship documentary. So let’s stop with the excuses and weak arguments. Tim Duncan is the greatest power forward of all time. No one touches his legacy-end of story.
I still take Tim. It's close but Tim in 2003 (Robinson was almost retired, Tony was too young, Manu was a rookie) had as help as KG in 2004. But only Tim got a championship. And I feel like 4 more championships is way too much to assume that KG would get them too. Not to mention Tim has double the MVPs. I feel like if Tim was putting a bit worse numbers and KG better ones we would be talking about a Russel/Wilt type of compensation.
@@georgiosgrigoriadis6200 however, Tim was legit leading the team in PTS REB AST BLK in that postszn run to the chip with already winning a MVP in that same year… 02-03 Duncan goes crazy
I disagree with the "assume 4 championships is way too much". In the NBA it's way too much about luck where you end up when drafted and how it shapes your career. There are not many players who a) went to a bad team and b) made them win a championship or even multiple ones with c) no proper help. Like Jonny said in a previous video, if KG came into San Antonio instead of Minnesota then KG would have all these rings. There is not much to assume.
@ but there is also the opposite side to where how much locker room chemistry, drama and opportunities that could distract them… that’s why I just take their stats/impact at context in value… while KG had an amazing peak, 10 year prime stretch, Duncan himself also has a amazing peak, but with a 12/13 year prime stretch… one’s a better scorer, one’s a better playmaker, both are elite defenders… without a doubt tho KG would have multiple rings w/ San Antonio, I just don’t think it lines up with 5 the way Duncan did it, but it would help his career to casuals who may rank him lower than I think he truly should be rank… around 13-17th all-time
I’m a knicks fan since 1991 and Tim Duncan is the third greatest player I ve ever seen! If you think KG was as good you re delusional! You can make the argument that those Celtics teams were more talented than the spurs and had an easier path to the finals, yet only won one chip.
You're a NY fan that still sounds like a casual. Garnett was the best pf or equal to Duncan. In 2002 to 2005 he was the best player in the league. A guard stuck in a big man's body before LeBron came.
@@younglove3362 from 2002 to 2005 Duncan won 2 mvp s, 2 chips, and 2 finals mvp s!!! What are you talking about!?! Who’s the casual! I even think Kobe was better in that stretch than Garnett!
@2KDUDE22 Steve Nash won MVP in 2005 and 06. Does that make him the best player? 🙄 Apparently you paid more attention to Duncan more than Garnett those years. Or even worse, just didn't watch them play. Garnett was the definitive best player in the league, an even bigger threat than Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe. The unfortunate part about it is that Garnett was the only threat on the Wolves. That's why he won MVP as soon as he got legitimate help, blowing both Shaq and Duncan away statically, and why the Celtics instantly won as soon as he joined, and pushed them as far as the finals and conference finals as soon as he got there, while being past his prime. Stop using team success to compare individual players. Makes you sound like a bonafide casual. 😒
@ Paul pierce won that finals, and finals mvp, not Garnett. Pierce was the best player on that team. Guess you didn’t watch. And Cassell and Sprewell would be in the hall of fame if they played with Duncan cause they d have 4 titles. Just for your stats clarification: Duncan 22.3 pts 12.4 rebounds 3.1 assists 2.7 blocks, finished 2nd in mvp voting probably from voter fatigue as he won 2 already like when Malone won it over Jordan, reg season record 57-25, Garnett 24.2 pts 13.9 reb 5.0 assists 2.2 blocks, reg season record 58-24, I ll give you that that one season his stats were better but to say they were heads above is false. Watch the games and look up the stats before you make a fool of yourself.
Individually? Yes. Talent wise? Also yes and probably better. Team player? No. Leadership wise? Hell no and that shit matters. Plus Duncan had no ego so a STRONG disagree that KG is as good as Tim Duncan. If LeBron's 4 titles don't not equal Jordan's 6, how the fuck is KG's 1 equal to Duncan's 5?
do you have the listening comprehension of an infant? he thinks KG was as good of a player as Tim Duncan. and if put in a similar situation, could've replicated Duncan's success. he never said KG would rank as highly on the all-time list as Duncan with only 1 ring.
KG has most First-team selections to the All-Defensive Team with 9. KG is only player who is franchise's leader in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks!! KG is only player with at least 25,000 career points, 10,000 rebounds, 5,000 assists, 1,500 blocks, 1,500 steals!!! KG has most career defensive rebounds (since tracking began 1973-74 season) at 11,453. KG is only rookie with at least 13 points, 4 assists, 4 steals, 5 blocks in a game!!!
Most of these are fair points, but being Minnesota's franchise leader for the 5 box score stats isn't too impressive considering Minnesota is the worst franchise in history, pretty young, and hasn't had many good players for more than a few years. Also, Wembanyama beat that last statline last year with 27 points, 10 rebounds, 8 assists, 5 steals and 5 blocks against the Lakers.
No player in league history has won more than 1 title without a current All-NBA teammate Bar Duncan, who did it 4 times. He had 1 season between 1999-2007 where he had an All-NBA player with him. If you want to know the truth about how ‘stacked’ his help was, go look at 2003 and come back to me.
You looked at literally the only year his team wasn’t stacked. The 2003 carry job is one of the best of any player, but it’s not like that’s indicative of the team quality overall. By 2005 Tony and Ginobli were All Star level guards. Duncan shot horribly in the 2005 finals and the spurs still won, largely due to Ginobli. Minny KG would never be able to win a series where he played that poorly.
Those 2003 versions of Manu, Tony, Stephen Jackson, Steve Smith and D-Rob were still better than Wally, Troy Hudson, Anthony Peeler, Kendall Gill and Rasho Nesterovic. Plus Bruce Bowen. Also David Robinson may not have been named All-NBA in 1999 or Manu in 2005 but they sure as f**k were that good. Tony in 2007 finished 15th in MVP voting!! Pretending those _HALL OF FAME_ players weren't actually good is disingenuous. You should be ashamed. No Duncan damn sure didn't have the kind of help someone like Magic Johnson had, but he still had a hell of a lot more than KG.
@@michaelahurt Were they better than KGs 2004 squad? The fact you’re having to talk about 1999 Robinson, or 2005 Manu, or 2007 Parker in relation to 2003 shows your issue. Do players play the same level every season?
@hardwoodthought1213 The 03 Spurs cast better than the 04 Wolves? No. But they were healthy. I cited those years because those are the years they won the title!! 🤦♂️🤦♂️ Did you think I was just cherry picking random seasons?? Anyway I'm making the point that even in the year SA had arguably the worst supporting cast, it was _still_ significantly better than Minnesota's that year.
I completely disagree. The notion that Tim Duncan benefited from playing with HOFs and a great org just isn’t true. He created that himself. When he came to SA Pop was a joke of a coach not some HOF legend. He was immediately a top 10 player his rookie year and won a championship his 2nd year. Then he proceeded to win another ring in 2003 with a year 2 TP, rookie ginobili, and washed D-Rob. None of those guys were at a HOF level at the time and his 2nd best player was Steven Jackson. You telling me KG winning a ring with that team? Duncan was a far better floor raiser than Garnett and if they flipped careers I would argue Duncan makes MIN a perennial contender with his ability to get the most out of players. Also, Duncan was a way better playoff performer than Garnett, and his leadership by example is what made the spurs such a model franchise. If Garnett is there that system isn’t established. Not to mention Duncan won 50 games damn near every year and was an iron man while KG fell after the Achilles injury. As much as I love KG, he’s not touching Duncan regardless of where they play.
Casuals be like: “BUT BUT BUT… Timmy got Manu, TP and David Robinson on his team. DUNCAN ALWAYS HAD A STACKED TEAM” !!! Me pulling out the common casual take on this 02/03 spurs 🤣🤣
@@jonnyarnett but in 2003 Duncan had a worse cast than kg Wally zerbiack putting up those 19 points is better than anything Duncan had that year and Duncan beat the Kobe shaq lakers outplaying Shaq cooking him and locking him up
Yes! Thank you! KG played on one of the worst ran franchises in all of sports for his prime, and still led them to a few deep playoff runs. One of the greatest defenders of all time, and a really good offensive player. Super underrated
Why do people think KG's leadership skill is on the same level of Duncan? KG is the stereotypical hot head who is not mature enough to control his emotion in order to maximize winning. KG insulted his teammates in the most obnoxious way possible (similar to what Kobe does) and get random technical because of similar emotion control issue. Such behaviors are bad for winning. A young but mature Lebron is capable of leading a mediocre cavalier to multiple finals. KG is not mature enough to be such a leader.
Kevin Garnett was nowhere as good as Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan was a dominant low post player while KG was a pedestrian offensive player. KG's average offensive skills did not help his teammates become better players.....and is thus the biggest reason KG never had any post season success in the Western Conference. The only people that think KG was equal to Duncan were people that spent too much time playing video games.
The Duncan lovers can miss me with the 🐃💩 From the front office down to the bench was stacked in talent. He had the greatest coach OAT (Poppovich) From inception played with a 23/12/2(bpg) David Robinson who js came off of winning 50+gms, instead sat to move higher up in the draft the following season (not washed) He played with Parker (FMVP) / Manu (G.O.A.T 6MOTY) both perennial All-Stars & HOFers. He played with Bruce Bowen who for the 5yr stretch was easily 1/5 best 3-level defenders in the league as a league leader in 3pt%. He played with a rookie defensive doberman that was Kawhi Leonard who won the 2014FMVP... these guys picked up for Duncan in areas where he lacked. KG is a far better more skilled finisher, ball handler, scorer rebounder, & on-ball defender. His '04 MVP season is something that Duncan couldn't & didn't replicate. He didn't experience the success Duncan did because he didn't have a stacked super-team & 1/2 greatest coaches of all-time at his disposal for 20yrs
@FrokuBabayy. Woulda/coulda/shoulda is your.entire argument. KG didn't experience the same success that Duncan had because at the end of the day he was a coward who wasn't a dominant offensive player. Duncan's dominance on the low block is what created the open opportunities for his teammates....thus making them better players. KG didn't make his teammates better players because he was only a threat to score about 20-22 points in the playoffs.
@Damianoutlaw Just because you say something doesn't make it true. It just makes you ignorant in the face of those familiar with basketball history KG's inferiority to championships & FMVPs has EVERYTHING to do with the supporting casts he had at the peak of his powers & unfortunate injuries sustained. As if playing with the most consistently competent / coherent / firm organization the NBA has ever seen somehow doesn't impact your career 🤣👎🏾
@@DamianoutlawThe timberwolves were literally the had the worst W/L ratio in the history of the league. They helped KG way less than the Spurs with Tim Duncan.
I really don't think KG is as coachable as Timmy at spurs. Their whole dynasty happened because Timmy accepted pop's scolding and everybody follows. I don't think KG can accept being screamed at. Can he win a ring? Sure, but a dynasty like Tim? No way
Reporter: "Who are you starting at Center?" Pop: "Tim Duncan, like we have for the last 15 years.” Tim Duncan was a CENTER. Calling him the GOAT PF is absurd.
Exactly. But he can't be the GOAT center and that makes a certain player he beat, resume less appealing if he lost twice to the 4th best center ever as opposed to best pf ever.
This same argument could also be made against the likes of Kobe, if be interested to here the rational if KG is also “just as good” as him. Also I’m not saying I disagree with the video
0:51 kg had 3-4 opportunities to win a chip nd he only one won so tbh u could use the argument td had more help but if u rly look at it he just didn’t capitalize
@@nicoli-thenextup9866 Deadass if you look at both of their rosters from 1999 to 2007 all of those Twolves rosters were equal to or better than those Spurs rosters. This video is bs and slander because jonny arnett is a Tim Duncan hating clown
@@jimmybrooks2000exactly. Duncan’s teams from 00-04 are super overrated, yet he was still consistent winning series, something KG only did when Cassell was an All-NBA player (something Duncan didn’t have in 99, 01, 02, 03, 04, 05, 06, 07)
@@hardwoodthought1213 exactly nd ppl don’t realize that Tim Duncan didn’t have a prime admiral he was already early 30’s nd Tony Parker & Ginobli weren’t all stars till a lil bit later nd ultimately TD was more healthy nd more consistent defensively ultimately & kg had ray allen & Paul who were still all star caliber nd he had rondo one of the greatest point guards ever nd big baby , tony Allen Eddie house Brody had a squad for years
I am not that sure. Spurs was spurs because of BF, and spurs was consistently great because of him. KG was individually great player, but he was completely different mentality in comparison to the BF, and it is a big question mark of his potential success in spurs as a team. KG work well with elite players and stars, but with others not so much. Spurs was a TEAM oriented organization, with great leader with no ego, put a KG there and you potentially can get better results but also you can get Twulfs. BF was team and results oriented leader who makes all teammates better, KG was individually skilled player. BF vs KG looks like today NBA comparation of Jokić VS Embid
I've got Tim as better than KG but I understand people saying KG is equal to Tim or better. That said, this video is bs and you need to stop disrespecting Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan from 1999 to 07 won 4 championship with no All NBA teammates. In 03 he carried a spurs roster to 60 wins and a championship with no all star teammates. David Robinson was declining when Tim played with him. Kawhi was not even an all star until Tim's last year. And all of Tim's teammates cite Tim as the reason that they were able to improve as players. I highly doubt that KG would thrive in a Spurs system because he and Tim Duncan are not the same person. And you can even look at some of the T-wolves years where KG absolutely did have help but he just didn't get the job done.
@@Damianoutlaw He didn’t tho? You could say he did better, but that was also in part due to Perk being out. And KG was tired and do worse that game, but over the series, he played great Edit: It would be like saying Kobe did bad because he shot relatively poorly in Game 7
@@Damianoutlaw Yeah, he was…..idrk what’s hard to understand here. There’s like documentaries that go onto it. He was tired and performed worse, and another factor was Perk missing. But that doesn’t mean over the course of the series, Pau was better
I like your content Jonny, I really do. But this one was flawed. Here's why: 1. Minnesota sucked hard because of their own stupidity. " In 2000 Joe Smith signed a one year $1.75 million contract with the Timberwolves, well under his value at the time. It was later found out that he had an under the table agreement to sign three cheap deals with the Timberwolves in order to acquire his bird rights. They had promised to sign him to a large extension afterwards, breaking the rules of the CBA. The Timberwolves were docked four first round draft picks and the contract was voided. " KG was robbed of help in his prime years, but not only because it was bad franchise. A material about KG must contain this, otherwise it's incomplete. 2. If you'd like to compare TD to KG it's best to listen to other bigs. They praised Timmy, because he did all his small things perfectly. Shaq, Sir Charles, DeMarcus Cousins, Kenyon Martin praised him for a reason. 4. Timmy was a perfect fit for San Antonio because of his attitude. KG was more hot headed and he learned to sacrifice for a team success later in his career. I believe "sacrifice for a team success" was TD's motto since day 1. 5. Last, but not least. Many fans remember TD from his late years, but he was suprisingly quick and athletic in his early years. A nice putback here, very fast spin there and now he has like 16 points shooting over 60%..
@@bartomiej9807 Jonny isn't going to respond to this because he's a Tim Duncan hating clown. Not only does he not realize that this video is incredibly stupid and hypocritical, he will never make a video like this for someone else. I guarantee you he will never make a video about Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, Rae Allen, Vince Carter, etc saying if they played with Shaq they would all have a bunch of rings over Kobe. And one thing you forgot to mention is that during a bunch of those years KG had rosters that were actually equal to or better than Tim Duncan's rosters.
TIM DUNCAN: 5 titles!! KG: 1 title!!! TIM DUNCAN with 15 total selections to the All-Defensive Team!!! TIM DUNCAN with 1,360 consecutive games with a field goal made!!! TIM DUNCAN with Highest Career Plus/Minus (since tracking began 1996-97) at +8,910.
Also KG's leadership skill is not on the same level of Duncan. KG is the stereotypical hot head who is not mature enough to control his emotion in order to maximize winning. KG insulted his teammates in the most obnoxious way possible (similar to what Kobe does) and get random technical because of similar emotion control issue. Such behaviors are bad for winning. A young but mature Lebron is capable of leading a mediocre cavalier to multiple finals. KG is not mature enough to be such a leader.
Why is Tim Duncan the only hall of famer who gets criticized for "having help" when most of them played with other hall of famers too? Hell some of these guys in the top ten playes with each other at the SAME TIME
Tim Duncan was a Ray Allen shot away from being 6-0 in the finals. Think about that. Tim Duncan could have averaged better numbers but chose to let others shine for the teams sake. Any stat you throw out is meaningless without the proper context. KG played with - Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo, Sam Cassell and Latrell Spreewell. He has one championship to show for it. So don’t tell me he didn’t have enough help.
I agree. KG was a tenacious defender who was quick, had great handles for a 7 footer, a better shooter and just had that killer instinct & played like every possession like it was his last.
Killer instinct? lol, you clearly never watched him play then, cause outside of barking at soft Euros he rarely established himself come playoff time as a ‘killer’
KG is so good and I always love his stories. I feel like Damian Lillard is starting to fall into this category of player we know was great but is starting to become a little underrated given the recent bucks. In terms of retired players the one springs to my mind most is none other than Patrick Ewing.
Steph fans disrespect all his contemporaries but never compare rosters and privilege. I've been begging Jimmy to make this video. Compare the privilege of all the stars. Especially Steph. Rewriting history in real time
Before I even watch this video I know it’s wrong. To say someone is as good mean in every metric. Duncan played more consistently, he played longer for better, was a better teammate, plus so much more also kg highs aren’t as high as Tim Duncan highs. Kg wasn’t getting triple doubles in the finals or quadruple doubles. Kg wasn’t averaging 27 17 5 5 . People forget Duncan was averaging 32 points a game during the mavs series. People forget Duncan has to most all defensive teams of all time. They even declined differently. Also Tim didn’t play with a Paul Pierce or a ray allen. And if he did he would have won more than 1. I love kg but he’s more of a really good replacement for Duncan
@@dewanewelch1744definitely. Allen and Pierce were already past their peaks as was Garnett. Robinson was close to his peak in 1999 and they had a decent squad around them. Duncan had Popovich while Garnett had…Doc Rivers
@ it’s the truth And Manu and Parker wouldn’t be anything in the league without Timmy He was a real leader. KG was carried by peirce in his only finals
I would say that KG wouldn't win for Spurs with the cast that Duncan had in his early career like in 03 but with big 3 around him KG would probably won more than Duncan
btw you forgot Jokic. In 2022 Jokic led entire team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, FG% and true shooting %. The only player in the history who led his team in all these categories. Maybe even he led all players in free throw %, I'm not sure about that one. However, this year he has a chance to achieve that again.
@MarkLaw13 yes, in steals too. He averaged: 27,1 points, 13,8 rebounds, 0,9 blocks, 1,5 steals and 8 assists on 58% shooting from the field. Nobody from that Nuggets team averaged above 1,5 steals.
@@rockysalvatore435 why is he above Moses Malone? Are you crazy? Go check Moses Malone's career. Jokic every average 30ppg 25 rebounds for 10 straight seasons???
@@rockysalvatore435 well, with all due respect, it's to eaely to put him over Curry all time. Maybe if this season he wins another MVP and championship than yeah, maybe I would put him over Curry too, but still he has to achieve that... Because stats, overall records are not enough. I get it that he is easily greater player in his prime than Curry if you look at the way he plays, he is much more efficient, but you have to win championships too to make your career better...
@@seananthony7494 Lmao this is why I don't take jonny seriously. Not only is this video false as hell, I guarantee you he will never make a video like this about AI, Tmac, Rae Allen, VC, etc saying that they could've been as great as Kobe if they played with Shaq. He is a clown for this video
The player I’ve always felt hasn’t gotta. His just due even though he’s widely recognized is :D.Wade. He was a force and had he had better injury luck I think nba history would look a lot different
No he wasn't Jonny, stop it😂😂😂 Tim Duncan is the greatest power foward of all time and you know it. You can't say that KG was just as good as Tim Duncan because he never played in finals before 2008. Soo noe you can say his team wasn't good enough before he came into the Celtics, but I'm I'm sorry, that's it😂😂😂 Tim Duncan in his 2nd year of NBA when he was what, 21 years old?? Maybe even youner. In his 2md season of NBA he averaged 27,3 points, I believe 2,7 blocks per game, 11,5 rebounds per game on 53,7% shooting from the field, literally playing great on every aspect of this game. Than in 2003 he won his 2 MVP in a row, he defeated 3 times defending champions KOBE AND SHAQ, something that KG never did and in finale he averaged: 24,6 points per game, 17 rebounds, 5,3 assists and 5,3 blocks on 49,4% shooting and you know this, you know how incredible he played in game one and you know how phenomenal he was in game 6, that was probably one of the top 3-5 seasons of all time if you ask me when you look at both regular season and MVP. He won MVP, he beat Kobe and Shaq and than he played one of the top 5 greatest finals performances in the history of this league. I'm sorry, but simply you don't know, you can't say that if KG was in San Antonio, he would play as great in those 2 finals as Tim Duncan played, I DON'T KNOW THAT😂😂let me tell you something. You are right, maybe Tim Duncan would also have 1 ring if he was in Timberwolves and Celtics, but KG WOULDN'T WIN 5 CHAMPIONSHIPS IN SAN ANTONIO and I'm 100% sure about that.
I do not think many people who watched these games could ever argue this point. If you look at their talent & skill set they were interchangeable in so many ways. I would actually give the nod to KG in a few areas. For a teammate, his energy on the court was absolutely infectious. He also had a better handle, and better range offensively. No disrespecting Duncan, The Big Fundamental IS a legend for sure but do not sleep on The Big Ticket. This was the greatest era for Power Forwards ever. Cannot forget Dirk. People sleep on Weber and we had Amar'e & Sheed too. Good Times. #MambaForever
KG was still firmly in his prime when he got to Boston. His counting stats dropped because he voluntarily took a role as the #3 and sometimes #4 option. But he was first team All-NBA and 3rd in MVP in 2008. That's like saying LeBron wasn't still prime LeBron in 2016. No, KG's prime ended February 19, 2009 in Utah when he hurt his knee
What is your hottest take?
That darius barland is better than Tyrese Hakiburton
You will not love Lebron as much 5 years from now.
Dirk Nowitzki > KG
Tim Duncan was a Center, not a PF.
Gary Payton's defense is overrated. Guys like Dennis Johnson, Sidney Moncrief, Joe Dumars and Alvin Robertson were all better on that end of the floor.
KG and Duncan were polar opposites. One was quiet and reserved while the other intense and emotional. But skill wise, they were neck and neck. I’m just glad I was able to witness both in their prime.
@@PiGuy007 We'll said.
Agreed
@@ktapreswreckd921v9Timothy Duncan equals role players
@malikwilson7387 Not quite sure that I understand your comments concerning these two great players?
same here that's so true
I love the fact that you include clips from NBA player
Side bar: I’m one of the biggest KG fans out there. But KG on the spurs would be inherently less successful. Don’t get me wrong I’m the biggest fan of KG’s skillset which is an elite, scaleable all-time collection of defense, passing, and shooting.
But half of Duncan’s success came from off the court and specifically his ability to lead quietly and be humble enough to listen to Pop. KG would never in a million years let himself be chewed out by Greg. A big part of Spurs culture was selflessness and winning. I think KG would sacrifice and play winning basketball like Duncan but the locker room presence and respect everyone had for Timmy was one of the biggest cogs in the Spur’s machine that I don’t think Garnett could replicate.
It’s a Ying and Yang thing. Draymond and Steph, Jordan and Pippen, Kobe and Pau, Kobe and Phil. You need a quiet leader and a passionate one. Pop and KG were cut too much from the same cloth to synergize, and it’s neither their fault or a knock on who they were. It’s just how life is.
Tru indeed
Two things can be true at once tho their is no way you dont think that minor issue/difference stops kg of all people from winning bro wanted to win above all else
That you cannot tell. Simply and assumption and not fact
@@Bisonskihis assumption is a good one but seeing how KG was rejuvenated when he went to boston shows alot but who knows I guess.
TP would probably wrestle power away from KG tbh. When Timmy left and TP became kind of the leader of the Spurs, it pretty much went into a downward spiral talking to the media about Kawhi. When TD was there, everyone on the Spurs stayed quiet and fell in line.
Yeah, KG was once my favorite player to watch, after Jordan left the league. I didn't know he was the only player to reach those milestones in the 5 major statistical categories. That's crazy.
One of 5 players to do so
0:10 bro 2003 which was one of ducans best seasons, he carried that team and WON.
True but they still had good players.
Not as good as they would be (Tony, Manu) or had been (Robinson) but better than Troy Hudson, Anthony Peeler and Rasho Nesterovic
But it is weird to pick _that_ year
It was an good defense without him even on the court.
David was less than 10 pts.
Manu & Parker were too young.
2nd best Spur was SJax.
This 03 run is better than any single Kobe or Shaq run. This is coming from an LAL fan. Kobe said it when they lost to Spurs in 03. No excuses they were just better than LAL.
That was ALL Duncan.
@@michaelahurtpeeler career backup.
David’s last yr he was just good not great defensively,
Parker was 20 2nd leading scorer most series
Manu was 12 pts off the bench. Or 8 pts in the finals
He chose 03 cuz it is a year that ends any argument that they were close. KG has plenty of yrs where his team had a better overall than that 03 supporting cast.
@capitanawesome44 that team was mainly defensively oriented.
Great video, and just to provide a little extra context:
The Timberwolves lost several first round draft picks in the early 2000’s as punishment for an illegal deal the owner made with Joe Smith (2k Generic ahh name). The owner promised to pay Joe under the table if he signed a deal below his market value. Stern found out and docked the team their 2001, 2002, and 2004 picks.
Also their starting shooting guard Malik Sealy died in 2002 after he was hit by a drunk driver.
So the Timberwolves really had a difficult time building a team during most of KG’s prime due to dumb decisions and a tragedy.
yep this is really the crux of the comparison. kg had the worst team situation ever and duncan had perhaps the best ever, especially with his coach. putting that aside and strictly looking at what they contributed as basketball players, ill take kg. it is super close but the fact that a vast majority is taking duncan shows the lack of knowledge about this debate.
As if Tim Duncan’s energy isn’t infectious. He’s a walking win column.
I know KG has the aura.. and it just looks so good and he talks that talk.. but that’s all he got on Duncan.
KG is better offensively and equal to duncan defensively
@@khidollaz facts
@@khidollazEqual offensively? On what planet
KG had 7 30+ point playoff games. Duncan? 40….
I think Timmy's ability to make OTHERS perform at a higher level is being overlooked.
He allowed others to be great at the expense of his own numbers. Timmy did not gaf who got the stats as long as they got the W.
This is what separates them and what puts Timmy a cut above KG.
KG didnt care about stats either...idk where all of this "KG was selfish" nonsense is coming from
Duncan is in the conversation with Bill Russell as the greatest teammate in NBA history. In my opinion, Duncan is one of the more humble men to have played in the NBA. He is also very disciplined and extremely self-controlled. Garnett is self-aggrandizing, whiny, overly emotional, and always hungry for attention. Garnet exhibited less self-control than I would expect from a team leader.
Duncan made his team of threat for his entire career. Garnett was able to muster two seasons where he contended. I will take the real leader instead of the self proclaimed*every single time.
I think Garnet is outgoing and charismatic. I think he knows how to talk to a camera. And I think he and all the other marijuana users now sit and do podcasts stoned nonstop. They promote themselves constantly over social media in order to change public opinion on I don’t see Tim Duncan on social media promoting himself ever.
Johnny, this is a super hot take. It is an over-baked take. 420.
Your comment is extremely misguided and inaccurate. KG being more emotional does not mean he was attention-seeking...he was quite literally one of the most unselfish superstars ever. Just go listen to any of his former teammates speak about him. Yes he was loud and intense, but that was just how he showed his raw passion for the game.
I think people forget how much of a choke artist Garnett was he literally wasn't a playoff riser and his game pretty much stayed the same or got worse in the playoffs
@@princesally743 KGs playoff failures are all the fault of his teammates
@Damianoutlaw No it doesn't make sense that Kg is given credit for his team's success but he's somehow exempted from criticism and don't pretend like he didn't have good teammates
@princesally743 i agree with you 100%. I was being sarcastic and imitating a Kevin Garnett fan
@@Damianoutlaw I understand you now. Genuinely speaking Kg is overrated he isn't on the same level as Duncan
choke artist is a little much. kg game wasnt built to handle the playoffs as well as duncan thats for sure. but that difference isnt too big imo
Here's my breakdown of the two.
Timmy was better at
- scoring
- post play
- getting to the line
- rim protection
- playoff raising
Kg was better
-Perimeter defender
- long mid range shooting
You could argue that rebounding and passing is a wash. The same goes for leadership ( kg would work better for some players, Timmy with others).
Overall I think that Timmy is clearly better. His strengths are way more impactful in a playoff setting. Kg instead had a higher usage, more opportunities to showcase his skill based on his teams' lack of talent.
His skills work better in a regular season setting while I think Timmy and Dirk are superior playoff players and almost as good in the regular season.
In the end Timmy is like mj, a n.1, while Kg is like Pippen, an amazing all around n.2.
Agreed
@@Zenithseven23 I do have KG as a Top 15 all time player, I can say at the very least with his amazing individual skill
You just said 5 different ways to score (exaggeration) but still.
@@donaldf9055
30 point games in the playoffs (Timmy has 36, Kg has 9).
It is not that even that Duncan was playing with a Steph Curry who demanded double teams.
Additionally, Timmy is the only player ever to match prime Shaq in production (and even outscore him) in head to head games.
Timmy averages nearly 30 ppg from 99 to 04 in the games played against Shaq.
Timmy was an underrated scorer.
good analysis
My take is this: KG was a great player on an okay team, and looked better by comparison
Timmy was a great player on a great team and looked somewhat worse by comparison.
Head to head comparison becomes tricky because of the difference in team success, but I do believe Duncan is better by a hair.
Those Wolves teams without Garnett were NOT okay, they were a literal burning garbage can!
I watched them both throughout their careers and Tim was better especially at his best Tim came into the league from college which did give him an advantage from the jump , and in head to head games he usually got the best of KG I don’t want to hear anything about teams you play with whatever you have.
That's bullshit the level of talent you play with is detrimental to success, Tim Duncan wasn't carrying them dudes like KG
This is a super hot take to kids, but anyone who watched these two in their prime knows that they were 1A and 1B
Yet ppl will struggle to put joker above someone like Steph when joker had way worse rosters yet a better prime and peak
KG was 2A in relation to Dirk.
I think that's fair. They are pretty much at the same level talent wise. They play different styles, but were both beasts
@@rockysalvatore435Joker over Steph all time? What does this have to do with the comment?
im 14 and have known this all along
Shouldn't be a hot take for anyone who actually watched basketball.
A lot of people didn't and they talk like they did while exposing the fact that they didn't.
@@younglove3362 bars...
Sir, it's obviously a damn hot take and many won't say KG was close and it was a BIG GAP......KG also had help. Tim had consistency. There is a different. Don't do that shit. Just because people don't agree with your opinion doesn't mean they "didn't watch basketball" so fucking lame these days with that clone shit.
@@BigWillieDilliewas Duncan not a better offensive player? Defense you could give to kg but not by much
@@BigWillieDilliemany are casuals, Duncan in fact did nothing better than Kg except for his back to basket game which made him a more resilient scorer/engine in the playoffs where Kg was mainly just a faceup/lob threat. And Duncan was a better rim protector. Kg is better at everything else and fits way better than Duncan in every all time starting 5 everyone likes to make.
lol I randomly put together an all time starting 5 and second string the other day. And I had an argument with a friend because I insisted that KG was as good, if not better, than Tim Duncan
This is a nice video because it's been a topic of discussion for me a few times.
As a Lakers fan during the 00s, there was no single player that scared me more than KG during the 00s. He was a menace on both sides of the court both outside and inside, he was a very good passer and was really the guy who could do everything at an elite level.
Nowadays, most people will put him "clearly" behind Duncan and even Dirk, but during pretty much all the 00s, Duncan vs KG was a very valid argument, even during the famous 2003 Duncan year, although obviously Duncan had the amazing Playoffs run, and especially Finals series.
As a whole, I think it's obvious who has the best resume, we can't really debate that (even if KG is still impressive), but as someone who wasn't especially fan of neither of them (Lakers fan here) and watched all their careers, I think their level is actually VERY close. It's very valid to think Duncan is better, I have nothing against that thought, but I do have something against people nowadays saying it's not even a debate or something like that, because it was most definitely a debate, a very typical debate actually, back in the day... and for good reason.
Now, putting my Lakers hat, I also agree we were lucky, in a sense, that we got the Magic instead of the Celtics in 2009. I actually do think we had a chance. They were better than in 2010 with KG healthy, but I think we were also better. As a Lakers fan, I appreciate the easier championship, but as a basketball fan, I REALLY wanted to see that Lakers-Celtics in 2009, it would've been even better than the 2010 series... I think.
Now, in terms of 2010, I do think the Perkins injury is a bit overrated. Perkins influence was not that big in my book, as he was pretty mediocre, and they were quite fine with KG and Rasheed inside with Big Baby using most of the inside backup minutes. Inside defense was as good as it can get with Sheed and KG. Also Bynum didn't play that much (and played bad) during game 7, and I just don't think Perkins would've helped much with the rebound advantage that was our key factor.
But all of that said, that doesn't take away the fact that 2010 was extremely close and that the Celtics had a very real chance in 2009. It's hard to know if KG would've managed to do what Duncan did with the Spurs, because there's obviously a lot of success there, but I am pretty damn sure Duncan wouldn't have won titles with the KG Minny squad.
I think prefering one over the other is fine... but let's not pretend this was not a very big debate for over a decade.
How many Championships did David Robinson win without Tim Duncan? Tim Duncan won without David Robinson.
How many Championships did Tony Parker win without Timmy? TD won without TP
How many did Manu win without Tim Duncan? Timmy won without Manu.
How many championships have the spurs won since Tim Duncan’s retirement?
How many has Pop won without TD?
Tim Duncan is 5-1 in the finals (a miracle shot away from being 6-0). Tim Duncan NEVER missed the playoffs. All Tim Duncan did was win. He was unselfish, so others got some of the shine, but anyone who watched knew the reason the Spurs were champions.
As great as KG is, the same can’t be said for him. He played with great players and coaches and has one ring to show for it.
so kg playing with sam cassell is the same as duncan playing with tony parker and there was never a time in his career that duncan did not have a shampionship level team around him
@@ghengiskhahop2569this is completely false and an absolute lie. Go look up the statistics of '03 Spurs and tell me with a straight face that is a "championship level team." Duncan was the anchor of that team on offense and defense.
I was with you until the last part.
Yes Tim did it all, and he did carry at the same point KG did (carrying in 03, and KG won MVP in 04), but it’s not whatsoever like KG could compare to that with his teams.
For years, season after seasons, his teams were shit or not far from it. Rarely, it ever, competing. But as soon as he actually moved out of there and went to Boston, he won, and he won big. 09 injury, and then a very close Finals in 10 (much like Tim’s 13 Finals). They didn’t compete as well in 11, but stuck it out to compete in 12, where they got beat by a peak LeBron superteam. Tim started OUT with David, and then quickly got Tony, Bowen, Manu, etc. with him, before eventually getting Kawhi, too. KG had one team for that, Tim had damn near his whole tenure.
@@joecool8290
03 only, and they both went fairly far in their respective seasons. Tim ultimately beat the Lakers and won in 03, although his team was good that was around him, at least good in the sense that they could fit with him carrying (like they supplemented him). KG that next year had next to nobody, and one of his costars got injured, and then they lost to the Lakers.
But outside of 03, 98 he had a good roster, 99 he had one and won, 2000-2002 he had a solid roster, 05-2011 he had a great roster, and then Kawhi showed up from 2012-2016. So really like maybe 2 years you could say where it was just ok and not quite champ level (I mean he won, but they were just a bad winning level team). Compare that to KG having 12 seasons without enough help
he better than mj
Chris Webber was just as good as KG and Tim too and is criminally underrated as well
Webber's basketball skills were on par with KG and Duncan, but his basketball IQ was questionable. Of course, if the Lakers/NBA hadn't stolen a championship from the Kings in the early '00s, I probably wouldn't be typing that.
@@zw8596his
IQ wasn't bad at all. He was way better than Tim Duncan.
Not even close on defense
@zw8596 that timeout is his only memorable bad iq play..
Underrated, yes. On par with KG and Duncan, though? No. Offensively? Sure. But KG and Duncan are probably are probably both top 5 defenders of all time as well.
"KG carried that team in Minnesota. Tim Duncan had help in his prime"
How was Rasheed Wallace there, but he somehow doesn't know about the 2003 spurs? TD did in fact not have help, he had one of the most impressive post-season runs in NBA history.
kg had the worst team situation ever in minnesota, caused by worst team punishment in nba history in 2000 which affected kg for his best years. duncan didnt have a lot of help in 03 but he still had sophomore tony parker, stephen jackson, bruce bowen, and obviously popovich as his coach. thats worlds better than the motley crew kg had to put on his back during his minnesota days
True but that was really the only season. KG had no one for 13 years in MIN. He still had Pop, solid players who won chips with him later on.
Huge disagree… Tim Duncan has no arguments to be the 2nd or lower PF of all time… longest prime out of any PF, and his peak is also one of the most impressive… especially the 2002-03 season… 04 KG was a hype beast but 02-03 Duncan was just more impressive
I been of this opinion for a few years, I’m glad it’s finally mentioned, this is the greatest example of “situational greatness” which is why I don’t think championships should be weighed too heavily when speaking of legacy, championships is a team stat not a player stat.
I think accolades in general should not used in player rankings.
Duncan have more help because he leave space and time to Parker and Ginobili to develop. People like to talk about Spurs culture, but that culture was possible because the type of unselfish leader and star TD was.
yeah. i think thats become more clear since tim left. he was the reason our culture was how it was. pop is kinda toxic on his own.
I grew up in Minnesota when KG arrived, besides Mike, KG was my favorite player. That being said, should'ves could'ves is all well and good, but the championships prove themselves to put TD over KG.
I also find it ironic that all of these arguments for KG can easily be slotted for Lebron vs. Jordan. Yet, we all know who's the GOAT.
I feel the debate often times is colored by the aesthetic/iconic/charismatic element of it.
Kg was entertaining, charismatic and iconic while Duncan was methodic, consistent and relatively dull (personality wise and game wise).
This is why more fans resonate with kg more even if Timmy belongs on a totally different tier.
Bron vs Jordan is a lot closer than Tim vs KG, at least comparing greatness/impact
@@Jonathan-A.C. Jordan v LeBron is not close. both in terms of who was better and where they rank on the all-time list. the gap between Jordan and the 2nd best player in NBA history is the grand canyon. the gap between Duncan and KG is like a creek in your backyard.
@@evanclp514
No it isn’t.
And the difference between KG and Tim is the further one, unless just looking at straight talent
@@Jonathan-A.C. Tim and Kevin are literally 1A and 1B! The gap between Jordan and LeBron is literally bigger than the gap between Steve Balmer and the hobo living on your street!
Awesome video, Jonny! You make great points. I especially agree that if KG had a better supporting cast and TD had one that wasn't great, their fortunes would've reversed. Both were great PFs. While I've long put TD ahead of KG, I see a compelling case for KG as best PF and you make a great case for them being equal.
Great video again. Have a great one, Jonny 🙂
Bro,Tim won a chip his second year,Robinson was washed up come on, in 2003 Tim won a chip basically by himself robbed of a quadruple double in the Finals (Parker and Manu was no where to be found), name one player that was with Tim for all 5 of his rings.....and when they defeated the Cav Tim lead the team in 4 categories,robbed of a 4th Finals MVP, so no Garnett is not as good as Duncan...
@@samuelhepburn2636 Spot on. I'm so sick of people lying about Tim. And you're one of the few people I've seen mention how Tim absolutely should've won the finals mvp in 07
They initially did that,because he'd definitely be in the conversation as the GOAT 🐐, unfortunately everything is a sham,that Tyson vs Paul Fight confirmed my beliefs, where big money 💵 is concerned the event is fixed..
@@jimmybrooks2000 I appreciate it..
I was born and raised in Minnesota. Watched KG a lot and watched Duncan in the playoffs a lot. Duncan is miles better than KG. In my experience, KG would settle for outside jumpers too often. Duncan would take it to the basket and get better shots. Swap them and I think Minnesota would have won the title with Sprewell and Cassell. The Spurs would have won less titles with KG.
That is true, Duncan is a lot stronger than KG, that why he could play center, KG could play even sf in all star matches
Miles better is just nonsense KG was a better defender rebounder and played in far worse teams and overall organization for 12 years Duncan wasn’t miles better
@@mashwork6615 I don't know if I'd say KG was a better defender and rebounder even. He was definitely better at leading the team and scoring tough baskets. At least whenever I watched...
@@hthrunKG was better at leading and tough buckets or Duncan?
@@hardwoodthought1213Duncan absolutely.
Nobody hates Duncan more than KG fans, Kobe fans and Hakeem fans. This video is not 'My hottest take' but my 'My Hottest hate'.
Advanced metrics favor Duncan (especially in the playoffs), but let's not pretend it wasn't a team issue with KG carrying that SawdustCoyotes trash. I cringe when people mention Lebron not having enough help playing alongside All-NBA or HoFers, but KG's best long-term teammate in MIN was Wally Szczerbiak. The Twovles is the worst-run franchise ever. They just turned back into SawdustCoyotes by trading a core piece for a protected 1st round pick (irrelevant for a contending team), a garbage player (DiVo is shooting 34% and 32% from 3 in 25mpg), and Randle (one chocker for another).
That bad franchise has now had more success without KG than with him
The other players apparent best run franchise has had what success without Duncan?
@@hardwoodthought1213 Cap. KG's MIN made the playoffs 8 times and made the conf finals, where they lost 4-2 to the Kobe/Shaq Lakers. The current Wolves made it 3 times and lost 4-1 in the conf finals.
@@RVered So all you’ve showed is that at worst Minnesota has achieved the exact same without KG as with. KG won 2 playoff series with Minny, Minny has won 2 playoff series without KG.
Should we do the same for San Antonio and Duncan?
@@hardwoodthought1213 You're not getting it, KG and TD were equally incredible, but TD won 5 with SA, and KG won 0 in MIN. Why? Because they're a great franchise that _built_ around TD. Drafting a star means nothing if you can't build around him. SA used their expert scouting, management, and foresight to find diamonds in the rough (low draft picks, journeymen, and critical role players). Kawhi - 15th pick, Parker - 28th, Manu - 57th, Bowen - undrafted journeyman, Horry - signed away from the Lakers, etc.
@@RVered So what, did SA just magically learn how to run a franchise in 1997, then forget in 2016?
Maybe the fact they drafted the greatest leader in league history, most consistent superstar in league history, and arguably most selfless player led to that? You act like guys like Manu and Parker came out the gate swinging? They themselves are on record saying they succeeded because Duncan helped them, he gave up touches, coached them up, never made their mistakes matter.
Why have they turned to amongst the worst franchise since Duncan? They still have Pop, right?
You think KG allows them years to develop? Because we have plenty of stories of KG isolating teammates, we have none of Duncan.
Not saying KG had better help, but Duncan’s better help is a large result because of him, not his team who has achieved jack shit without him.
Excellent work again my friend!
Those Timberwolves team were my gang gang, Laettner was hated, haha but ahead of his time, then Googs, Marbury, Porter, Sam Mitchell
The Big Ticket was my favorite until he made my crappy bad Celtics great again haha w/ Dino & Antoine then Billups/Mercer Pitino led
Another all-time great that's overshadowed by Duncan's success is David Robinson.
Is he overshadowed tho? Or is it he’s placed in proper context because it took Duncan for him to win?
@@hardwoodthought1213 Overshadowed to the point that less people celebrate him than Garnett.
People tend to rank the top 10 rank based off accolades, straight presence in the court id say kg, and Kevin durant are both top 10 all time
I still say to this day, if KG didn't suffer that knee injury in Feb 2009, the Celtics would've repeated. Forget about that 2010 Finals, Kobe wouldn't have anything outside the Lakers 3-peat.
2009 Lakers weren't losing that year
If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle
I for sure think that. Lakers we’re on a comeback and were maybe better then than in 2010, but Rondo also improved (not as much by like 2012, but still), and KG and them largely hadn’t started getting out of their primes yet. I don’t think Kobe and Pau and them, especially without Ron Artest, could actually beat them. They went 7 games in 2010, I’m sure it would be tight if they won again, if that even happened
@@NewGoldie They would had lost to a healthy Boston team probably. Orlando pushed them hard in the finals, except for game one. I know they won in five games , but most games were very close.
Shawn Marion is seriously underrated and deserved to be an All-Star many more times, along with making more all-NBA teams.
AGREED. Plus,Marion was a 2 way player,good on defense and offense too.LOVE these types of players.
Spurs fan here. This isnt a hot take at all. KG won a MVP for a reason. Dirk, Timmy, and KG were all on par with each other during their respective primes.
You aren’t a SA fan then if you can’t see what Duncan did well and how much more it impacted than KG and Dirk
@@hardwoodthought1213 You can absolutely be a basketball fan without being biased, if you can't that's a YOU problem. SPURS fans are telling yall they were 1A and 1B and yall still arguing, how about actually watching some games from back(since yall clearly weren't alive back then to watch them live)
I remember playing old NBA 2K and live and remembering their overalls were equal or one was slightly better than the other. I always felt they both were equally talented/skilled players but were just in different team situations. Thanks for making me feel vindicated with this vid lol
My counter take: Young Tim Duncan was absolutely better than KG until about 2004. That if Tim Duncan joined the league earlier or played in a more selfish scheme this would not be a debate. I don't mean the typical "If KG and TD switched teams" I just mean putting TD on like any other team but the Spurs and leaving KG in Minnesota.
@@Mattulaak this hot take isn’t bad… I agree that KG looked low key better from 2004 to 2006 stretch but something about how Duncan was able to sustain his prime which extended to about 2009 and than had that one gump up year in 2013 where he’s nearly giving 18/10/3 on elite defense which was that spurs finals run… very good take here
I think people discount veteran presence and incredible coaching helps either young player’s maturity
Tim had a knee injury in 2000. KG was practically healthy til 2009. Duncan clears.
@@MOCskodenit's simple Garnett was forced to Carry In Minnesota and wasted his time there and Tim Duncan always had the most elite role players even Greg Said Manu would be a all star averaging 25 points a game but he's in my system tim was a system player
@@ripdethhow can Timothy Duncan the system player clear
KG was/is my favorite hooper ever. As a kid will never forget watching him get drafted and thinking how young and cool he was. I grew up in San Antonio too so I knew the greatness of TD. It literally is a coin flip between the two. An honor to actually have seen them in their primes and great vid my guy! 🎉
Wrong, there are usually never wrong opinions. But this one is. Tim Duncan clears KG easily
Why is it that people tend to overlook how Tim Duncan carried the Spurs from 1999 to 2003, especially during his legendary 2003 playoff run?
By 1999, David Robinson was already 34 years old and starting to get past his prime. His offensive production had slightly declined, and while he remained a defensive anchor, he was no longer the dominant two-way player he had been earlier in his career. Just look at the stats-it’s undeniable.
Then there’s the argument that Duncan had significant help, with players like Avery Johnson, Sean Elliott, and Mario Elie being touted as key contributors. Let’s be real here: none of these players were consistent All-Stars during that period. To suggest otherwise is laughable. They were solid role players, yes, but Duncan was the engine that made everything work.
Now, some will argue that Kevin Garnett was more naturally gifted than Duncan in terms of skillset. Sure, KG was incredibly skilled, but this isn’t just about talent-it’s about leadership, resilience, and the ability to carry a team emotionally. That’s where Duncan separates himself. He wasn’t just skilled; he was the cornerstone of the Spurs’ success, both on and off the court.
The Spurs weren’t the well-oiled machine we know today until Duncan arrived. He was instrumental in creating the culture that became the foundation for their dynasty. He set the tone, leading by example, fostering loyalty, and inspiring players to take pay cuts to stay competitive. Don’t forget that Gregg Popovich’s job was reportedly on the line going into the 1999 Finals. Duncan’s leadership and performance saved the team and helped establish the blueprint for their long-term success. This is even documented in the 1999 championship documentary.
So let’s stop with the excuses and weak arguments. Tim Duncan is the greatest power forward of all time. No one touches his legacy-end of story.
Was 1999 when all the Jordan Era players passed the torch to 70s Babies
KG studio tough.
It’s interesting that we understand why KG had to leave to succeed and yet won’t allow the same for LeBron
I still take Tim.
It's close but Tim in 2003 (Robinson was almost retired, Tony was too young, Manu was a rookie) had as help as KG in 2004.
But only Tim got a championship.
And I feel like 4 more championships is way too much to assume that KG would get them too.
Not to mention Tim has double the MVPs.
I feel like if Tim was putting a bit worse numbers and KG better ones we would be talking about a Russel/Wilt type of compensation.
He didn't face the same Lakers team like the Wolves in 2004 and the 2004 Pistons were way better than the 2003 Nets
@@georgiosgrigoriadis6200 I think the 03 Lakers are almost as good as the 04 Lakers.
Just Tim wasn't that good in 2004.
@@georgiosgrigoriadis6200 however, Tim was legit leading the team in PTS REB AST BLK in that postszn run to the chip with already winning a MVP in that same year… 02-03 Duncan goes crazy
I disagree with the "assume 4 championships is way too much". In the NBA it's way too much about luck where you end up when drafted and how it shapes your career.
There are not many players who a) went to a bad team and b) made them win a championship or even multiple ones with c) no proper help.
Like Jonny said in a previous video, if KG came into San Antonio instead of Minnesota then KG would have all these rings. There is not much to assume.
@ but there is also the opposite side to where how much locker room chemistry, drama and opportunities that could distract them… that’s why I just take their stats/impact at context in value… while KG had an amazing peak, 10 year prime stretch, Duncan himself also has a amazing peak, but with a 12/13 year prime stretch… one’s a better scorer, one’s a better playmaker, both are elite defenders… without a doubt tho KG would have multiple rings w/ San Antonio, I just don’t think it lines up with 5 the way Duncan did it, but it would help his career to casuals who may rank him lower than I think he truly should be rank… around 13-17th all-time
Chris Paul, in my opinion, is criminally underrated and doesn't get the recognition he deserves
I’m a knicks fan since 1991 and Tim Duncan is the third greatest player I ve ever seen! If you think KG was as good you re delusional! You can make the argument that those Celtics teams were more talented than the spurs and had an easier path to the finals, yet only won one chip.
You're a NY fan that still sounds like a casual. Garnett was the best pf or equal to Duncan. In 2002 to 2005 he was the best player in the league. A guard stuck in a big man's body before LeBron came.
yeah you have no idea what youre talking about
@@younglove3362 from 2002 to 2005 Duncan won 2 mvp s, 2 chips, and 2 finals mvp s!!! What are you talking about!?! Who’s the casual! I even think Kobe was better in that stretch than Garnett!
@2KDUDE22
Steve Nash won MVP in 2005 and 06. Does that make him the best player? 🙄 Apparently you paid more attention to Duncan more than Garnett those years. Or even worse, just didn't watch them play. Garnett was the definitive best player in the league, an even bigger threat than Shaq, Duncan, and Kobe. The unfortunate part about it is that Garnett was the only threat on the Wolves. That's why he won MVP as soon as he got legitimate help, blowing both Shaq and Duncan away statically, and why the Celtics instantly won as soon as he joined, and pushed them as far as the finals and conference finals as soon as he got there, while being past his prime. Stop using team success to compare individual players. Makes you sound like a bonafide casual. 😒
@ Paul pierce won that finals, and finals mvp, not Garnett. Pierce was the best player on that team. Guess you didn’t watch. And Cassell and Sprewell would be in the hall of fame if they played with Duncan cause they d have 4 titles. Just for your stats clarification: Duncan 22.3 pts 12.4 rebounds 3.1 assists 2.7 blocks, finished 2nd in mvp voting probably from voter fatigue as he won 2 already like when Malone won it over Jordan, reg season record 57-25, Garnett 24.2 pts 13.9 reb 5.0 assists 2.2 blocks, reg season record 58-24, I ll give you that that one season his stats were better but to say they were heads above is false. Watch the games and look up the stats before you make a fool of yourself.
The 03 run imo is also far more impressive than the 08 run
Individually? Yes. Talent wise? Also yes and probably better. Team player? No. Leadership wise? Hell no and that shit matters. Plus Duncan had no ego so a STRONG disagree that KG is as good as Tim Duncan. If LeBron's 4 titles don't not equal Jordan's 6, how the fuck is KG's 1 equal to Duncan's 5?
do you have the listening comprehension of an infant? he thinks KG was as good of a player as Tim Duncan. and if put in a similar situation, could've replicated Duncan's success. he never said KG would rank as highly on the all-time list as Duncan with only 1 ring.
This is what I’m talking about, thanks Jonny!!
KG has most First-team selections to the All-Defensive Team with 9. KG is only player who is franchise's leader in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks!! KG is only player with at least 25,000 career points, 10,000 rebounds, 5,000 assists, 1,500 blocks, 1,500 steals!!! KG has most career defensive rebounds (since tracking began 1973-74 season) at 11,453. KG is only rookie with at least 13 points, 4 assists, 4 steals, 5 blocks in a game!!!
How can you explain Tim Duncan was 95-35 in college.
0ver 5:000 points playoff
Leader in rebounds and blocks in NBA playoffs history
Most of these are fair points, but being Minnesota's franchise leader for the 5 box score stats isn't too impressive considering Minnesota is the worst franchise in history, pretty young, and hasn't had many good players for more than a few years. Also, Wembanyama beat that last statline last year with 27 points, 10 rebounds, 8 assists, 5 steals and 5 blocks against the Lakers.
Those franchise stats mean very little when you are the only good player a team has ever had up to that point. 🤦
@@j-rey- Stats from today's NBA shouldn't even count bro, watch the games. Literal dead person can get those defensive rebounds!
Pau Gasol outside Spain is sometimes undervalued.
No player in league history has won more than 1 title without a current All-NBA teammate
Bar Duncan, who did it 4 times. He had 1 season between 1999-2007 where he had an All-NBA player with him.
If you want to know the truth about how ‘stacked’ his help was, go look at 2003 and come back to me.
You looked at literally the only year his team wasn’t stacked. The 2003 carry job is one of the best of any player, but it’s not like that’s indicative of the team quality overall. By 2005 Tony and Ginobli were All Star level guards. Duncan shot horribly in the 2005 finals and the spurs still won, largely due to Ginobli. Minny KG would never be able to win a series where he played that poorly.
Those 2003 versions of Manu, Tony, Stephen Jackson, Steve Smith and D-Rob were still better than Wally, Troy Hudson, Anthony Peeler, Kendall Gill and Rasho Nesterovic. Plus Bruce Bowen.
Also David Robinson may not have been named All-NBA in 1999 or Manu in 2005 but they sure as f**k were that good. Tony in 2007 finished 15th in MVP voting!!
Pretending those _HALL OF FAME_ players weren't actually good is disingenuous. You should be ashamed.
No Duncan damn sure didn't have the kind of help someone like Magic Johnson had, but he still had a hell of a lot more than KG.
@@michaelahurt Were they better than KGs 2004 squad?
The fact you’re having to talk about 1999 Robinson, or 2005 Manu, or 2007 Parker in relation to 2003 shows your issue. Do players play the same level every season?
@hardwoodthought1213 The 03 Spurs cast better than the 04 Wolves? No. But they were healthy.
I cited those years because those are the years they won the title!! 🤦♂️🤦♂️ Did you think I was just cherry picking random seasons??
Anyway I'm making the point that even in the year SA had arguably the worst supporting cast, it was _still_ significantly better than Minnesota's that year.
Bruh Cassell and sprewell were past there prime wven thi Cassell made all star team in 2004 @michaelahurt
KG and Hakeem were the only 2 players I've ever seen able to consistently guard all five opposing players in a single possession.
I completely disagree. The notion that Tim Duncan benefited from playing with HOFs and a great org just isn’t true. He created that himself. When he came to SA Pop was a joke of a coach not some HOF legend. He was immediately a top 10 player his rookie year and won a championship his 2nd year. Then he proceeded to win another ring in 2003 with a year 2 TP, rookie ginobili, and washed D-Rob. None of those guys were at a HOF level at the time and his 2nd best player was Steven Jackson. You telling me KG winning a ring with that team? Duncan was a far better floor raiser than Garnett and if they flipped careers I would argue Duncan makes MIN a perennial contender with his ability to get the most out of players. Also, Duncan was a way better playoff performer than Garnett, and his leadership by example is what made the spurs such a model franchise. If Garnett is there that system isn’t established. Not to mention Duncan won 50 games damn near every year and was an iron man while KG fell after the Achilles injury. As much as I love KG, he’s not touching Duncan regardless of where they play.
My Counter Hot Take: Kevin Garnett couldn’t do what Tim Duncan did with the San Antonio Spurs in the 2002-03 season alone…
I agree too
I agree kgs scoring game wasn’t good enough to pull that off
1, that's an assumption. 2, Duncan wouldn't be in the Finals if he was on the Timberwolves that year instead.
Casuals be like: “BUT BUT BUT… Timmy got Manu, TP and David Robinson on his team.
DUNCAN ALWAYS HAD A STACKED TEAM” !!!
Me pulling out the common casual take on this 02/03 spurs 🤣🤣
@@jonnyarnett but in 2003 Duncan had a worse cast than kg Wally zerbiack putting up those 19 points is better than anything Duncan had that year and Duncan beat the Kobe shaq lakers outplaying Shaq cooking him and locking him up
Yes! Thank you! KG played on one of the worst ran franchises in all of sports for his prime, and still led them to a few deep playoff runs. One of the greatest defenders of all time, and a really good offensive player. Super underrated
You mean 1 deep playoff run in 12 years?
Why do people think KG's leadership skill is on the same level of Duncan? KG is the stereotypical hot head who is not mature enough to control his emotion in order to maximize winning. KG insulted his teammates in the most obnoxious way possible (similar to what Kobe does) and get random technical because of similar emotion control issue. Such behaviors are bad for winning. A young but mature Lebron is capable of leading a mediocre cavalier to multiple finals. KG is not mature enough to be such a leader.
You don't watch hoops..
Kobe wanted to play with KG for a reason and Kobe is not a bad leader imo.
@@montyFRKobe isn’t a bad leader, but this isn’t about Kobe.
spoken like someone whose never had a leader like that
100% disagree
Put them in each other's situation and the results are similar if not the same. I do like Duncan's offense a little better, though.
Kevin Garnett was nowhere as good as Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan was a dominant low post player while KG was a pedestrian offensive player.
KG's average offensive skills did not help his teammates become better players.....and is thus the biggest reason KG never had any post season success in the Western Conference.
The only people that think KG was equal to Duncan were people that spent too much time playing video games.
The Duncan lovers can miss me with the 🐃💩
From the front office down to the bench was stacked in talent. He had the greatest coach OAT (Poppovich)
From inception played with a 23/12/2(bpg) David Robinson who js came off of winning 50+gms, instead sat to move higher up in the draft the following season (not washed)
He played with Parker (FMVP) / Manu (G.O.A.T 6MOTY) both perennial All-Stars & HOFers. He played with Bruce Bowen who for the 5yr stretch was easily 1/5 best 3-level defenders in the league as a league leader in 3pt%. He played with a rookie defensive doberman that was Kawhi Leonard who won the 2014FMVP... these guys picked up for Duncan in areas where he lacked.
KG is a far better more skilled finisher, ball handler, scorer rebounder, & on-ball defender.
His '04 MVP season is something that Duncan couldn't & didn't replicate.
He didn't experience the success Duncan did because he didn't have a stacked super-team & 1/2 greatest coaches of all-time at his disposal for 20yrs
@FrokuBabayy. Woulda/coulda/shoulda is your.entire argument.
KG didn't experience the same success that Duncan had because at the end of the day he was a coward who wasn't a dominant offensive player.
Duncan's dominance on the low block is what created the open opportunities for his teammates....thus making them better players.
KG didn't make his teammates better players because he was only a threat to score about 20-22 points in the playoffs.
@Damianoutlaw Just because you say something doesn't make it true. It just makes you ignorant in the face of those familiar with basketball history
KG's inferiority to championships & FMVPs has EVERYTHING to do with the supporting casts he had at the peak of his powers & unfortunate injuries sustained.
As if playing with the most consistently competent / coherent / firm organization the NBA has ever seen somehow doesn't impact your career 🤣👎🏾
Did you even watch the NBA in the 2000s? Because you're way off.
@@DamianoutlawThe timberwolves were literally the had the worst W/L ratio in the history of the league. They helped KG way less than the Spurs with Tim Duncan.
I really don't think KG is as coachable as Timmy at spurs. Their whole dynasty happened because Timmy accepted pop's scolding and everybody follows. I don't think KG can accept being screamed at. Can he win a ring? Sure, but a dynasty like Tim? No way
Reporter: "Who are you starting at Center?"
Pop: "Tim Duncan, like we have for the last 15 years.”
Tim Duncan was a CENTER. Calling him the GOAT PF is absurd.
Yeah but his fans won't acknowledge that
Exactly. But he can't be the GOAT center and that makes a certain player he beat, resume less appealing if he lost twice to the 4th best center ever as opposed to best pf ever.
That's a joke from Pop. Duncan was played at PF most of his career. He's a PF.
they would rather have started rasho nesterovic and nazr mohammad at center instead of duncan after the admiral retired
@clevisbernier8973 he only got 9 years as a pf stop just saying anything.
i was a Kobe fan until I watched KG in 2008... He made me love basketball again and love defense at the time...
This same argument could also be made against the likes of Kobe, if be interested to here the rational if KG is also “just as good” as him. Also I’m not saying I disagree with the video
I have Tim and KG both above Kobe
KG got 1 chip in Boston, Tim duncan got more, in a more difficult conference
0:51 kg had 3-4 opportunities to win a chip nd he only one won so tbh u could use the argument td had more help but if u rly look at it he just didn’t capitalize
@@nicoli-thenextup9866 Deadass if you look at both of their rosters from 1999 to 2007 all of those Twolves rosters were equal to or better than those Spurs rosters. This video is bs and slander because jonny arnett is a Tim Duncan hating clown
@@jimmybrooks2000exactly. Duncan’s teams from 00-04 are super overrated, yet he was still consistent winning series, something KG only did when Cassell was an All-NBA player (something Duncan didn’t have in 99, 01, 02, 03, 04, 05, 06, 07)
@@hardwoodthought1213 exactly nd ppl don’t realize that Tim Duncan didn’t have a prime admiral he was already early 30’s nd Tony Parker & Ginobli weren’t all stars till a lil bit later nd ultimately TD was more healthy nd more consistent defensively ultimately & kg had ray allen & Paul who were still all star caliber nd he had rondo one of the greatest point guards ever nd big baby , tony Allen Eddie house Brody had a squad for years
Great video and 150% agree 👍
This is a fact. Give KG a Spurs team/ Organization. He’d probably have the same results
I am not that sure. Spurs was spurs because of BF, and spurs was consistently great because of him. KG was individually great player, but he was completely different mentality in comparison to the BF, and it is a big question mark of his potential success in spurs as a team. KG work well with elite players and stars, but with others not so much. Spurs was a TEAM oriented organization, with great leader with no ego, put a KG there and you potentially can get better results but also you can get Twulfs. BF was team and results oriented leader who makes all teammates better, KG was individually skilled player. BF vs KG looks like today NBA comparation of Jokić VS Embid
Great video!!!
I've got Tim as better than KG but I understand people saying KG is equal to Tim or better.
That said, this video is bs and you need to stop disrespecting Tim Duncan. Tim Duncan from 1999 to 07 won 4 championship with no All NBA teammates.
In 03 he carried a spurs roster to 60 wins and a championship with no all star teammates.
David Robinson was declining when Tim played with him.
Kawhi was not even an all star until Tim's last year.
And all of Tim's teammates cite Tim as the reason that they were able to improve as players.
I highly doubt that KG would thrive in a Spurs system because he and Tim Duncan are not the same person.
And you can even look at some of the T-wolves years where KG absolutely did have help but he just didn't get the job done.
Nailed it
100 percent agree i always show love to kg
And Tim was never outplayed in an NBA finals like KG was when he went against Gasol when they were going for that repeat blowing a 3-2 lead
How was he outplayed? They lost the Finals, but that doesn’t mean he was worse than Gasol
@@Jonathan-A.C.Pau gasoline murdered Kevin Garnett in the 2010 Finals….especially in game 7
@@Damianoutlaw
He didn’t tho? You could say he did better, but that was also in part due to Perk being out. And KG was tired and do worse that game, but over the series, he played great
Edit: It would be like saying Kobe did bad because he shot relatively poorly in Game 7
@Jonathan-A.C. KG was "tired" in the 2010 Finals??????? LMAO
Pau Gasol outrebounded KG 18-3 in game 7 of the 2010 NBA Finals
@@Damianoutlaw
Yeah, he was…..idrk what’s hard to understand here. There’s like documentaries that go onto it. He was tired and performed worse, and another factor was Perk missing. But that doesn’t mean over the course of the series, Pau was better
I like your content Jonny, I really do. But this one was flawed. Here's why:
1. Minnesota sucked hard because of their own stupidity.
" In 2000 Joe Smith signed a one year $1.75 million contract with the Timberwolves, well under his value at the time. It was later found out that he had an under the table agreement to sign three cheap deals with the Timberwolves in order to acquire his bird rights. They had promised to sign him to a large extension afterwards, breaking the rules of the CBA.
The Timberwolves were docked four first round draft picks and the contract was voided. "
KG was robbed of help in his prime years, but not only because it was bad franchise. A material about KG must contain this, otherwise it's incomplete.
2. If you'd like to compare TD to KG it's best to listen to other bigs. They praised Timmy, because he did all his small things perfectly. Shaq, Sir Charles, DeMarcus Cousins, Kenyon Martin praised him for a reason.
4. Timmy was a perfect fit for San Antonio because of his attitude. KG was more hot headed and he learned to sacrifice for a team success later in his career. I believe "sacrifice for a team success" was TD's motto since day 1.
5. Last, but not least. Many fans remember TD from his late years, but he was suprisingly quick and athletic in his early years. A nice putback here, very fast spin there and now he has like 16 points shooting over 60%..
@@bartomiej9807 Jonny isn't going to respond to this because he's a Tim Duncan hating clown. Not only does he not realize that this video is incredibly stupid and hypocritical, he will never make a video like this for someone else.
I guarantee you he will never make a video about Allen Iverson, Tracy McGrady, Rae Allen, Vince Carter, etc saying if they played with Shaq they would all have a bunch of rings over Kobe.
And one thing you forgot to mention is that during a bunch of those years KG had rosters that were actually equal to or better than Tim Duncan's rosters.
TIM DUNCAN: 5 titles!! KG: 1 title!!! TIM DUNCAN with 15 total selections to the All-Defensive Team!!! TIM DUNCAN with 1,360 consecutive games with a field goal made!!! TIM DUNCAN with Highest Career Plus/Minus (since tracking began 1996-97) at +8,910.
Also KG's leadership skill is not on the same level of Duncan. KG is the stereotypical hot head who is not mature enough to control his emotion in order to maximize winning. KG insulted his teammates in the most obnoxious way possible (similar to what Kobe does) and get random technical because of similar emotion control issue. Such behaviors are bad for winning. A young but mature Lebron is capable of leading a mediocre cavalier to multiple finals. KG is not mature enough to be such a leader.
@@bohanxu6125admiral set the foundation
You didn't watch the video. You're that incompetent.
Shame on you.
@@MarkLaw13 i sense a KAMALA supporter.
@@MarkLaw13 WOKE IS DEAD!
Yea I got Hakeem and KG in their prime as bigs duo in my all time starting 5.
Nah. KG is kinda overrated.
Garnett is getting push waaaaay to high for a guy with only 1 mvp and 1 ring with a super team.
Jerry west is a goat level player, if you think bill is arguably the goat or even wilt Jerry west needs to be in that convo.
Why is Tim Duncan the only hall of famer who gets criticized for "having help" when most of them played with other hall of famers too? Hell some of these guys in the top ten playes with each other at the SAME TIME
Tim Duncan was a Ray Allen shot away from being 6-0 in the finals. Think about that. Tim Duncan could have averaged better numbers but chose to let others shine for the teams sake. Any stat you throw out is meaningless without the proper context. KG played with - Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Rajon Rondo, Sam Cassell and Latrell Spreewell. He has one championship to show for it. So don’t tell me he didn’t have enough help.
KG had exactly 1 good year with Cassell and Sprewell. He didn't team up with Allen, Pierce, and Rondo until very late in his career. Context matters.
3:15 Still the craziest thing Ive ever seen live. I dont know how tf this 7 footer pulled this off in mid air. KG is Him.
KG was also a student of the game. He had a mouth on him but he was great cos he backed it up.
I agree. KG was a tenacious defender who was quick, had great handles for a 7 footer, a better shooter and just had that killer instinct & played like every possession like it was his last.
Killer instinct? lol, you clearly never watched him play then, cause outside of barking at soft Euros he rarely established himself come playoff time as a ‘killer’
Duncan carried those early spurs teams 😅 lol I was there and teams win not carry jobs hence kg not winning til he joined the Celtics
bro thanks a lot for this gem.
I respect KG a whole lot more than KD
KG is so good and I always love his stories. I feel like Damian Lillard is starting to fall into this category of player we know was great but is starting to become a little underrated given the recent bucks.
In terms of retired players the one springs to my mind most is none other than Patrick Ewing.
Steph fans disrespect all his contemporaries but never compare rosters and privilege. I've been begging Jimmy to make this video. Compare the privilege of all the stars. Especially Steph. Rewriting history in real time
This is just wrong. Duncan is a top 10 player. Garnett is top 75. Case closed!
Before I even watch this video I know it’s wrong. To say someone is as good mean in every metric. Duncan played more consistently, he played longer for better, was a better teammate, plus so much more also kg highs aren’t as high as Tim Duncan highs. Kg wasn’t getting triple doubles in the finals or quadruple doubles. Kg wasn’t averaging 27 17 5 5 . People forget Duncan was averaging 32 points a game during the mavs series. People forget Duncan has to most all defensive teams of all time. They even declined differently. Also Tim didn’t play with a Paul Pierce or a ray allen. And if he did he would have won more than 1. I love kg but he’s more of a really good replacement for Duncan
KG had Ray, Pierce, and Rondo for 7 seasons. One title
Timmy won 2 titles his first 7 seasons, with only David Robinson.
@@2playschemeo.p.croutes724 keep in mind that 2003 Drob was on his last legs as well… Duncan won more titles with less if we really think about it 🫨
This is revised history at its best lol
@@dewanewelch1744definitely. Allen and Pierce were already past their peaks as was Garnett. Robinson was close to his peak in 1999 and they had a decent squad around them. Duncan had Popovich while Garnett had…Doc Rivers
@ it’s the truth
And Manu and Parker wouldn’t be anything in the league without Timmy
He was a real leader. KG was carried by peirce in his only finals
Truth
I would say that KG wouldn't win for Spurs with the cast that Duncan had in his early career like in 03 but with big 3 around him KG would probably won more than Duncan
I Minnesota he had Tom Gugliatta, Isaiah Rider, Starbury he had some good help in minnesota
Googs 🐺 pack pride where my DJ 🎉😊❤
There were times when I was watching KG playing and I was like: "Dude, this guy looks like 7feet MJ..."
btw you forgot Jokic. In 2022 Jokic led entire team in points, rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, FG% and true shooting %. The only player in the history who led his team in all these categories. Maybe even he led all players in free throw %, I'm not sure about that one. However, this year he has a chance to achieve that again.
Not in steals
Jonny still won't put him above Moses or curry and he can't even explain why. That's the worst part. If accolades are important delete this video
@MarkLaw13 yes, in steals too. He averaged: 27,1 points, 13,8 rebounds, 0,9 blocks, 1,5 steals and 8 assists on 58% shooting from the field. Nobody from that Nuggets team averaged above 1,5 steals.
@@rockysalvatore435 why is he above Moses Malone? Are you crazy?
Go check Moses Malone's career. Jokic every average 30ppg 25 rebounds for 10 straight seasons???
@@rockysalvatore435 well, with all due respect, it's to eaely to put him over Curry all time. Maybe if this season he wins another MVP and championship than yeah, maybe I would put him over Curry too, but still he has to achieve that... Because stats, overall records are not enough. I get it that he is easily greater player in his prime than Curry if you look at the way he plays, he is much more efficient, but you have to win championships too to make your career better...
Duncan had far,far better players through his career.
I unsubscribed, you don’t know what you are talking about😂😂😂
@@seananthony7494 Lmao this is why I don't take jonny seriously. Not only is this video false as hell, I guarantee you he will never make a video like this about AI, Tmac, Rae Allen, VC, etc saying that they could've been as great as Kobe if they played with Shaq. He is a clown for this video
The player I’ve always felt hasn’t gotta. His just due even though he’s widely recognized is :D.Wade. He was a force and had he had better injury luck I think nba history would look a lot different
No he wasn't Jonny, stop it😂😂😂 Tim Duncan is the greatest power foward of all time and you know it. You can't say that KG was just as good as Tim Duncan because he never played in finals before 2008. Soo noe you can say his team wasn't good enough before he came into the Celtics, but I'm I'm sorry, that's it😂😂😂 Tim Duncan in his 2nd year of NBA when he was what, 21 years old?? Maybe even youner. In his 2md season of NBA he averaged 27,3 points, I believe 2,7 blocks per game, 11,5 rebounds per game on 53,7% shooting from the field, literally playing great on every aspect of this game. Than in 2003 he won his 2 MVP in a row, he defeated 3 times defending champions KOBE AND SHAQ, something that KG never did and in finale he averaged: 24,6 points per game, 17 rebounds, 5,3 assists and 5,3 blocks on 49,4% shooting and you know this, you know how incredible he played in game one and you know how phenomenal he was in game 6, that was probably one of the top 3-5 seasons of all time if you ask me when you look at both regular season and MVP. He won MVP, he beat Kobe and Shaq and than he played one of the top 5 greatest finals performances in the history of this league. I'm sorry, but simply you don't know, you can't say that if KG was in San Antonio, he would play as great in those 2 finals as Tim Duncan played, I DON'T KNOW THAT😂😂let me tell you something. You are right, maybe Tim Duncan would also have 1 ring if he was in Timberwolves and Celtics, but KG WOULDN'T WIN 5 CHAMPIONSHIPS IN SAN ANTONIO and I'm 100% sure about that.
I very much believe that KG is one of the 8-10 greatest players in NBA history
I do not think many people who watched these games could ever argue this point. If you look at their talent & skill set they were interchangeable in so many ways. I would actually give the nod to KG in a few areas. For a teammate, his energy on the court was absolutely infectious. He also had a better handle, and better range offensively. No disrespecting Duncan, The Big Fundamental IS a legend for sure but do not sleep on The Big Ticket. This was the greatest era for Power Forwards ever. Cannot forget Dirk. People sleep on Weber and we had Amar'e & Sheed too. Good Times. #MambaForever
KG was still firmly in his prime when he got to Boston.
His counting stats dropped because he voluntarily took a role as the #3 and sometimes #4 option. But he was first team All-NBA and 3rd in MVP in 2008.
That's like saying LeBron wasn't still prime LeBron in 2016.
No, KG's prime ended February 19, 2009 in Utah when he hurt his knee