A Critique of Luigi's Mansion 3
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- Опубликовано: 17 дек 2019
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== Spoiler warning ==
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A Critique of Luigi's Mansion 3 breaks down the exploration, combat, and everything in-between. I also explore what makes Luigi's Mansion 1 so special.
My Design Frame episode discussing Dark Moon: • Pedro’s Slow Motion, t...
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Some of the Luigi's Mansion 1 footage is recorded by me; some is from Krow's Graveyard. The little bit of Dark Moon footage is from chuggaaconroy.
The Quantum Leap gag is from Quaternions (with my added edits).
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One of the biggest gripes I have with the combat is that when you slam ghosts onto the ground they just poof into nothing instead of being sucked into the vacuum. It feels so much more satisfying to actually suck them into the poltergust but since you're incentivized to always slam them you'll rarely get to do that
I’m gonna be honest the boos always felt like an after thought, even in the original game. If not mechanically, they are so clearly stylistically clashing with the rest of the game, and feel like they exist purely to reference their lineage in the mario games
I completely agree! They're a total afterthought.
I turned off E-Gadd's hints near the beginning in the options, if you find it annoying you turn it off that's for certain, but I don't understand the complaint that then you don't get hints when you need them and that the hotline was useless. I never thought progress was too obtuse throughout my entire playthrough and never had a problem. The other thing I disagree with is Polterkitty. It's not based off of RNG, charging the flashlight makes your next move obvious so Polterkitty notices and retreats. And when you were standing too close to where it leaped off from it obviously didn't have enough room so it jumped back off. Both of these situations never happened to me across my two playthroughs but maybe I could see the second thing being a flaw since the boss could've just jumped down slightly away and makes it a bit more frustrating. The combat could be immensely improved if they just used what the options amount to. Both the slam and blow of air that brings you up allows for better area control, and with more combat encounters like the return to the museum where there are many ghosts I can't help but feel the game would be 100 times better. Yellow ghosts on the outside to set traps on floors and be annoying, red ghosts for big damage to watch out for, and more enemy types to compliment this idea would be amazing. I can't help but disagree with your point about how the time to beat each game effects quality. Besides the base level perception that the game's quality is by length, it doesn't go further from there. Boos should also have been there on the first visit and should require a special puzzle like the gems to find. Because they were only on the second visit and only required checking a normal object it felt boring and repetitive. I felt like LM3 was a perfect length especially for replayability and diversity. The only reason a short game length for the original works is because it doesn't try to be diverse with its level design as much as future titles. The original would be much worse if it was the same length as 2 and 3 because of it.
I love Luigi's Mansion 3, I've never played the original however and never finished Luigi's Mansion 2 so that might taint my perception on the game's quality. I thought it was a great video though, this was an extremely good quality video and I'm glad I got recommended it.
Hey Carter, thank you very much for watching and leaving a comment! I appreciate you taking the time.
Either the game doesn't provide hints when needed from the hotline or E. Gadd unnecessarily hand holds, so the hint system in general is broken and not well thought out or executed.
Maybe I was just unlucky but I couldn't figure out why Polterkitty was acting so strange. I tried not holding the flashlight down and the kitty reacted the same way, so it can't be the flashlight's fault. I just checked my Luigi's Mansion 3 document and realized I didn't mention the flashlight so my apologies for that. I also realize that it's my experience and probably a rare occurrence so I didn't linger on it for more than a couple sentences.
I agree on the combat. There are a couple area-control moves that trivialize the combat instead of complementing it, like you mentioned. Ghost variety and unique scenarios that complement the combat definitely could have elevated the game.
The game length stuff at the end of the video was some extra thoughts about how time during development could've been better utilized and more thought and time could've been invested in the game's design during pre-production. It's not as black and white as longer game = worse quality; there's a lot at play and I recognize that.
I completely agree on the Boos.
I definitely like the diverse environments, but I don't feel like it results in high replayability since the game is openly linear, and when it tries to be non-linear (with the polterkitty for instance) there's a lot of waiting around in load screens (elevators), whereas the first game is also linear but feels less so due to the level design/layout and no load screens.
Luigi's Mansion 3 is definitely not a bad game and has quite a bit of personality but I can't help but feel disappointed. I definitely recommend you play through the first game to see how the series has shifted.
Thanks again for the comment and the kind words! I always enjoy hearing other people's views and experiences.
Very well made and structured video! I just finished the game today and had a great time with it, other than the awful King Boo fight where it was way too difficult to actually hit the boss.
Thank you very much! I decided not to cover most of the boss fights mechanically, but King Boo was certainly a chore to fight. Too easy to dodge, lots of waiting around, and the bomb aiming (like you said) was awful.
Honestly I thought King Boo wasn't so bad- In fact, Hellen Gravely made me a lot more frustrated than he did.
I think part of what makes the first game so meaningful when compared to the third, beyond the gameplay and atmosphere, is Luigi's agency and motivation as a character. The setup for the first game shows that Mario goes missing when investigating the mansion and upon hearing the news Luigi chooses to look for him, the driving force that pushes him through the whole game is finding his brother despite his fear and it makes the gameplay of systemically clearing out rooms full of ghosts feel much more satisfying with such justification.
The setup for 3 shows that Luigi and co are caught in the hotel's trap and whisked away by the ghosts, it was never a choice whether or not Luigi fights through the hotel to save his friends, and the game even makes it a point to clearly show that the entrance to the hotel is sealed and that the only way out is to make your way through the entire building. The original mansion's front doors were always open, and Luigi was even free to move between it and E. Gadd's lab multiple times throughout the game, the only thing keeping him there was his drive to save Mario. The stakes for both games are clearly high, arguably much higher in 3, but the motivation behind each is completely different and is probably a large part in why 3 can feel so unremarkable in comparison.
Don't get me wrong, I still enjoyed playing 3, but as seems to be the general consensus there was almost nothing about it that left a lasting impression and, at least for me, the experience overstayed it's welcome when they start asking to revisit old floors, especially when hunting down boos. Maybe it's just my obvious bias towards the first game at play, but hey, it is what it is.
That is a fantastic observation! I 100% agree! Thank you for pointing that out :)
One minor note: the force from the air burst comes from the poltergust itself, not the nozzle that Luigi's holding, hence why the vacuum flies up into the air first and Luigi himself is pulled upwards by the backpack straps. Not exactly a justification for why it's so sudden, but it is at least understandable that the air pressure would be different from the regular vacuum.
Yeah that makes sense! :)
This is such a perfect video to describe Luigi's Mansion 3.
Thank you so much!
Some issues I had with the game were as follows, the absolute lack of powering up the Poltergust with money like in dark moon, we instead basically get everything right out the gate. This then later is shown off by the Super Vacuum quest which this side quest was a fucking pain in the ass to do and then was only used a few times, it felt unfinished because we only had 2 or 3 times used I believe, but it wasn’t even ever used in combat which felt so sad I couldn’t suck up a giant hoard ghost or something. Like imagine a hoard ghost with multiple hundreds of ghost forming a giant boss where we have to run from power box to box.
Another issue I had was the absolute lack of unique ghosts, and themed ghosts, it’s sad to see how Scarescraper had dozens of special decorated ghosts for the special floors, then seeing the plain ghosts in the main game just hurt. I miss the unique mini bosses, it would’ve been so cool to find special warp paintings which would take you to special levels or areas in the levels of the hotel.
This game is one of the best looking graphics game and soundtrack on the Nintendo switch. I had so many friends I built off of the Scarescraper scene so much so that we all figured out how to absolutely get the highest scores with cheesing the mechanics.
I wish we could’ve had the elemental powers with gooigi where gooigi would’ve been fire and Luigi water.
I will also note this game has such a breathtaking soundtrack. On this note I wish that the pianist battle could’ve been optional by Luigi going into the theater and there being many spots filled by ghosts alike and there would be one spot left open, Luigi will have the option to either go onto the stage and start the battle or sit down and watch the concert.
Morty is the best ghost and letting him finish his movie yields you the ability to watch the movie he finished editing, he will be found relaxing and happy where he asks you to suck him up and then you get to watch the movie. I do kinda wish the hotel owner would’ve been being controlled and influenced by king boo and after we beat him she comes to much like all the ghosts in Mansion 2.
It feels like e gadd is legitimately like a grandpa treating you like a child when you know what you’re doing
My biggest issue with this game was just how annoying some obstacles were. It felt like going down a checklist trying everything on the poltergust, and even then sometimes that doesn't help since you try the correct option at the wrong time. It's tedious.
this was a nice review. thank you
I have never seen anyone, nor known that you can time A presses while slamming for more slams. That's frustrating. Like for Boos, I had no clue they even returned from Dark Moon. All of your points are valid, especially ones that compare from former games which I can agree with further.
EXACTLY! I found out by complete accident on my own. The fact that it's never explained is the weirdest thing. Thanks for watching! I'm glad you can agree regarding the former games, because Luigi's Mansion 1 is seriously a masterpiece.
What bothered me most about LM3, is that it felt really linear, because you rarily switch between floors without the elevator, and really went from floor to floor without need of return, not counting the start and the one annoying mission in B2. Revisiting areas or exploring the mansion as a whole was more enjoyable in both LM1 and 2.
Not gonna lie, I was getting a little fatigued of Luigi's Mansion 3 by the end of it on my first playthrough. By the time I was at the 11th floor I was ready for the game to be over. I did beat the game, but the last little bit was a slog for me. Felt like if the game was just a tad bit shorter that it would've been perfect, because I was enjoying it for most of the ride.
I respect that. LM3 is better than LM2 but it's still missing the engaging combat and enemies (that LM1 already got right). I enjoyed some of the gem hunting but not much else really stuck out to me (at least from what I remember right now lol).
Very well put together. I agree with all your points.
Thanks! Glad you liked it.
I feel that, while his fear being a PART of Luigi's personality in the first game, fear has become Luigi's ENTIRE personality which kinda ruins the further games fundamentally in some way...
While I want to agree with you, I'm unsure if it's just the fear or the overall presentation or atmosphere. He's pretty expressive in all of the games, but in the first game he's exploring one actually dark, interconnected mansion, with ghosts that pop out as we explore, solve puzzles, or interact with the dusty furniture in the dark. The combat is more of a back-and-forth struggle against ghosts that are translucent or transparent. The ghosts in future games are not only more opaque but more silly in their designs and actions, and the combat is dumbed down. In the first game, Luigi fearfully hums along to the minimalist music, and the music often stops completely. Future Luigi's Mansion games just don't have that kind of atmosphere. Not even close.
I think the problem is more that Luigi conveys the same level of fear while the atmosphere completely changed, so his fear no longer feels justified.
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Exactly, very good description
Cool! I was wondering what your next video was going to be. Are you abandoning the Super Mario Odyssey kingdoms critiques?
It certainly appears like I have (sorry about that) but I'm still planning on continuing the series. I've been focused on improving my writing from Sekiro onward so hopefully the Odyssey series will come back strong. The next two videos will most likely be Design Frame #5 and the next Odyssey episode, not necessarily in that order.
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies Oh okay. Nice to hear that you're getting better, and it certainly appears that you have gotten better. Can't wait to see the next episode!
Luigi mansion 2 gave you upgrades for collected money, so that was actually useful. However, LM 3 did not do anything with it or hint to a score system, but redirecting at shop containing nothing... Could they not have but upgrades in there?
In my opinion, there's a lot of good stuff in Luigi's Mansion 3 and its only problem is that there's not enough of the good stuff in each floor. So, it just needs to do more where it succeeds and fix where it fails.
You should be put into the Next Level team for the next Luigi's Mansion game so that you can bring up your good arguments and be properly, 100% humbled by your bad ones. That's what I think at least.
If I remember correctly, I think the video still mostly holds up, outside of a point or two (which can stand out in a short video like this, I understand), and how it's not described in detail like my current videos are. I still especially stand by what I say about the bland combat and how it compares to the first game.
Honestly the slam mechanic just really ruined combat for me. The fact that it just interrupts combat is really annoying. I preferred the charge mechanic from 2 much more.
I find that 3 had too little Egad interaction if you turned off hints. With 1 you had regular visits after each area and 2 had the constant calls but 3 weirdly always felt distant, for me I'd rather want too much Egad than too little
Yeah I wonder if part of that feeling is just how big the hotel is and how it isn't broken up with going back to E. Gadd. I think this is a case of too much of taking control away from the player with annoying, belittling comments versus actual character development.
I feel like every video on this platform could benefit from a contextless Quantum Leap clip.
Is that what I did in this video? I actually don't remember LOL
I really don't care if they "spoil" the puzzle. At all. I think its honestly a game design trap to hold the "surprise" factor above the puzzle's actual quality. A good puzzle will be fun to solve even if you know what the "goal" of it is. The "goal" does not spoil the actual process of solving the puzzle. Like a lot of your issues would be like if a Jigsaw puzzle censored what the finished product of the puzzle will look like. That doesn't really add any extra fun to solving the puzzle. I don't care if a key is emphasizing that I need to pay attention to the shapes, and I'm fine enjoying the journey of figuring out where the key goes and how its supposed to be used. Feel free to show me exactly which door that key goes into game, but make the challenge of getting there enjoyable via enemies, tight heart pumping timing, and quick thinking. (like the poison gas rooms)
I've seen a LOT of jr designers and D&D DMs fall into the trap of trying to make every puzzle super obscure, and it might not be a problem 90% of the time, but it absolutely kills all pacing and momentum when you finally hit that puzzle that no one even knows how to begin to start. Being forced to google an obscurely explained puzzle is the fucking worst. Happens all the time in games like Ace Attorney and it just kills all immersion. No one likes crawling to the DM and asking "what... are we supposed to do?" That's shitty for everyone. There's no harm in giving players direction.
A good puzzle isn't about wracking your brain trying to figure out "what to do", it's about figuring out "how" to do it.
I totally agree. I think I fall into that trap in some of my older videos. I believe here, though, I commend Luigi's Mansion 3 quite a bit for its great use of its mechanics (except combat), like how the Dark Light always involves something looking off so we don't have to Dark Light everything. And it mixes its mechanics pretty well. If there's anything in particular that I was talking about regarding what you said, I'd be interested.
Okay so I rewatched the section you're referring to and I follow everything you say. Much of the game is based on exploration and experimentation (in an intuitive way) and does so very well to solve puzzles and find secrets. We know we need the megaphone, so we should figure out how to get it. That's the goal. E. Gadd tells us "how" when he shouldn't, it ruins part of the satisfaction of figuring out how to achieve the goal. The well is a part of the puzzle to figure out and piece together, but he doesn't give you the chance to. You know you need to water a plant to climb up, so why does he tell you the entire process of taking water out of a well and watering the plant to climb up? He explains in detail the entire process to reach the goal. He also points out that the torch can be used as the fire we need, which we're already on the lookout for, but if not, then we should be able to call E. Gadd for a hint and he can say we should look for a torch to light the spider web on fire, but instead he handholds throughout the entire process. And as a bonus, calling E. Gadd doesn't actually give us any hints.
Even with the golden bunny, the goal is to grab the bunny and do something with it, so we should be able to experiment with it and figure it out. Again, E. Gadd's hint should be something we manually request for, 'cause I want to solve the puzzle, and experimenting with the game's mechanics is a legit and non-obtuse way to achieve that goal, and the game is consistent at encouraging this, which is important.
More often than not, E. Gadd turns a puzzle or some type of process into something we simply execute, and that's the worst part of puzzles by far. Puzzles should never be about the actual execution but rather the process. There's a goal, now achieve it using your tools. When E. Gadd tells us to use Gooigi to Dark Light the golden bunny, the process is gone and is replaced by the boring execution. That's unacceptable in puzzle design. Granted, part of that depends on how intuitive the puzzle is, but in Luigi's Mansion 3's case, it's intuitive to figure out puzzles in the vast majority of cases, because it not only trusts you to use your tools, but encourages it by using all of them everywhere in intuitive yet clever ways.
E. Gadd can offer optional hints if the player requests it, but nothing more.
I would really love it if Luigi's Mansion went back to the MetroidVania style the first game tried. I think that genre works a lot better with "horror" even the child horror the series wants to go for.
Nice video!
My favorite spin-off series
I hope nintendo and illumation make a Luigi's mansion movie but animated someday
Yeah, Luigi's Mansion 1 is one of their best titles easily!
I think you can turn off E Gadd’s hints in settings
It's on by default with no prompt to change it outside settings. Regardless though, its existence shouldn't compromise the game. Tutorial design and guidance are delicate and difficult things.
Nintendo seems to be concerned more with length these days. Odyssey comes to mind here.
Idk, even with all of the good points made...I still enjoy Luigi's Mansion 3 overall a lot more than the original, the only thing I wish was kept were the smaller length(as in shorten the games run time an hour or two), and some smaller details like Luigi's humming or boss ghost personalities that extend beyond a single trait(although this game does seem to provide that in some ways such as with the Security Guard ghost or Morty). Nice video though!
Luigi's Mansion 3 does such a good job with exploration and experimentation that I can't blame you, but the original still handles combat and non-boss ghosts SO much better. Thanks for watching, I appreciate your thoughts :)
Handholding is just something that happens a ton more in new games. Devs don’t want the game to get stalled or the player to get stuck. May be a fear of players quiting to play. In an attempt to keep a sense of progression they handhold even if it isn’t really necessary.
The confusing part of this is that they already have a system in place (E Gadd's Hotline) that could have been used as a hint system, but it's simply not utilized.
Even if players want to be handholded, the satisfaction from resolving a well-designed situation in which you are stuck in is far above any handholding benefit. Unfortunately, the game market is so saturated now that devs don't want to lose their audience, and the Internet now holds all of the answers. So I think the Hotline could be a good middle ground.
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies I do enjoy solving puzzles on my own too. My personal experience is that games were originally about overcoming the challenges in the form of puzzles and what not. I think that over time that has become less of the focus because games have become more about being flashy stimuli which is hard to keep going if players are constantly stuck on a puzzle. So they guide the player base instead of taking a chance on a less guided approach and as you say lose the audience. At least potentially lose the audience. We won't know if that will happen until they take that chance.
Nice video
Thank you! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
I like all 3 games even if they've very different from each other
I liked that part where he said "Luigi"
this game would be a complete masterpiece for my if they reworked or just straight up removed the slam attack
such a stupid and unneeded addition. makes the game so easy it's such a shame
Yeah I think the combat in general needs some work. The first game's combat still holds up so it's a bit frustrating to see worse implementations.
never actually played luigis mansion 2 myself, but thanks for the reply
@@ma99954 late reply but honestly, I think that luigi mansion 2's combat was really good even if simple. The balance between charging to get a more powerful suction and being able to do a dodge whilst sucking, that drains all of your charge meter, creates a very simple to grasp combat system that still lets you build up skill and creates fun, split-second decisions. The upgrades increasing the charge meter maximum also help further this with creating more risk-reward between trying to risk getting maybe hit to get max charge versus dodging at the right time to guarantee avoiding the hit, but losing your charge. 3's system was definitely a massive downgrade over 2's. I have not played the first game, so I can't say my thoughts on that one's combat system.
I love the slam mechanic, but it being such an overpowering method for combat does lead to it becoming repetitive. The slamming animation is very satisfying to watch, especially with the boos since you can rapid fire slam lol! Just needed to be executed better and not be so overpowering.
I love Morty too and this game
Morty Fan Club
I am so glad to have disabled the hint system entirely.
Smart move! I usually go with the intended experience, but that's only because there's no way for me to know how bad the hint system really is beforehand, unfortunately.
He has 999 subs so I a
Had to sub
Thank you very much! :)
9:36 Damn, you flash AND suck people in this game? How did THAT get past the censors?
definitely was not a great sequel to luigis mansion 2 or 1. hopefully if they do make luigis mansion 4 it is much better.
underrated!!!!
Thank you! :)
I would put LM2 above LM3 I just enjoyed the game more. The real villain here though is nintendo.
I played through and beat this game in one sitting and remembered nothing of it 😢
Yeah, parts of it are good, but it's still nothing like the first game. I'll probably even revisit the first game in a stream or video. It still holds up!
Honestly how I would describe the game.
Thank you! :)
wow coming off of the security breach episode this really feels nitpicky lmao
It doesn't feel like that to me, but maybe because my voiceover and writing isn't as good as it is now so it comes across that way. I think the criticisms still hold up though!
I think the problem is that since Lugi's Mansion 1 was made in a time where people were satisfied with shorter games which were replayable, but now most people only really want to play through a game once and will feel dissatisfied if the game can be beaten quickly and the developers are struggling to figure out a way for Lugi's Mansion's arcade-like structure to be implemented into a lengthy game. Unfortunately I don't think it's possible to make a game that you'll play through multiple times to get better scores that will at the same time clock in at around 20 hours for your first playthrough without the game feeling insanely bloated and patted.
Sure, different eras had different restrictions, like machine resources, disk or cartridge space, and the accessibility/availability of games in the marketplace. Replayability used to be much more important because of those factors. However, we also saw popularity with very lengthy games like JRPGs. So I don't think it's black and white. I still think replayability is important but only because some people love a game so much that they want to replay it, or, of course, if a game was built with replayability in mind for the full experience (like rogue-lites). I think people are more likely to be dissatisfied with overall unsatisfying or unrewarding short games rather than just because they want something lengthy to play (although some people most definitely only care about length because it means more time mindlessly doing something).
I agree though that it does seem like Nintendo was trying to fill Luigi's Mansion 3 with enough content to match some length quota. The fact that this 3rd installment literally marks its levels with numbers instead of the 1st game's mansion certainly speaks toward their goal of hitting some length, at least that's what I felt when I first saw the elevator level select screen.
A lot of this seems like minor programming oversights.
I re-read my script so I could comment on this. It seems like they're all rooted in design rather than bugs or oversights, like the ghost variety, the general dumbed down combat, the Boos, E. Gadd, and money. Maybe the lack of permanence for each floor's objects was an oversight though, or perhaps that was on purpose for the sake of the Boos (since they're a post-game thing), which isn't a good excuse.
This video is so biased towards lm1
I wouldn't say "biased," that more often than not assumes an unreasoned judgment. I explain why Luigi's Mansion 1 still handles some things better, like the combat. Luigi's Mansion 3 was an improvement because it took some lessons from the 1st game and not the 2nd.
It’s ok but my main problem is you trying way too hard to be haha funny, like your voice is even higher than it should be and it makes hard for me to honestly take you seriously with your critique compare to something like your security breach and little nightmares videos.
But that’s all :)
I still stand by this video's critique but yeah my voiceover took a while to improve. Sorry about that!
@@DesignFrameCaseStudies it’s ok :)
gotta say, you could and should have made this entire video without going into spoilers, and you didn't seem to make any effort to let us know this was a spoiler ridden video. i can't subscribe to your channel now, my friend.
It's a critique on a case study channel, not a review. I will always go into spoilers because otherwise it's not in-depth or a proper critique. I just added a spoiler warning to the description anyway.
I haven't watched the whole video yet, but I just wanted to put this here:
The money you collect in the first game actually just determines how lavish your mansion looks by the end of the game. If you collect less money, it looks less and less extravagant until it's basically a rundown shack.
I'll delete this reply if you mention this in the video after I've watched the whole thing.
I don't specifically mention how the money affects the mansion, just that it's a lot more worthwhile to collect than LM3. It's more aplenty in 3 and in a much longer game, so LM1 handles money better. Although the fact that money affects the ending in 1 is even more evidence that I should've mentioned.