It's 2000 year old terminology that has been editted and translated multiple times. There is no point in trying to understand it. It's a jumbled period piece of what people were like at the time. Exodus 21 and all that horrible stuff that is no more thankfully.
Despite the fact that I'm a woman, the Bible is clear that women should not preach over men. Logically, sure, it doesn't make sense to the world and even my mind that women cannot teach, but the Bible is the ultimate authority. Not mankind's own logic.
@@christianblessedstoriesros5333 If you think that, then you've got problems and holes in your Theology/Christology. Paul is an Apostle of Jesus Christ and charged by Him. Paul's Apostleship given by the Lord is nothing to be discarded. All Scripture is breathed out by God (2 Timothy 3:16).
I am saved. My husband, please pray 🙏 for his salvation, is not saved. It is my duty to preach to our children of the true God the Creator, and of Jesus Christ his Son our savior.. I try to hold Bible study nighty with the kids reading the Bible and saying prayers.
Great job mama! This refers to preaching to both men and women in church. In your home, you are doing a great job! Praying for your husband's salvation.
Why are you married to someone who’s not saved? God says not to marry people who are unequally yoked. So you’re already in rebellion of God’s Word. Of course you should teach your children since your husband is an unbeliever, but that doesn’t qualify you to be the pastor of a church or exercise authority over men in a church setting.
It's a cultural saying to the Jewish woman at that time " it's not a law that's binding to the whole world .. also remember the verse that says .. slaves be obedient to your masters Ephesians 6:5 .. ? So does that mean it's alright to have slaves like in the 1800s .. no of course not .. he's speaking to the people at that time .. we try to understand some scriptures with a western world thinking of today's standards of man .. when you don't understand cultural of the Jews .. you can go into misunderstandings of scripture .. the only way that a western world thinking person who can have insite to the scriptures is by the spirit of God .. woman can have the same anointing as a man to preach to teach .. 😲 or is it a SIN .. for a woman to preach or to teach or to be a pastor ..? There were some things that were happening in the early churches now that the Jews had this freedom in Christ .. so Paul had to address the issues the problem .. 👍
@@stevenlee5562 so do you mean “ Adam was created first and not eve” applies at that time only and not now. “Adam was created first and not eve” applies universally, at all times , everywhere
'Pastor' John and the Bible are 2 different entities. This titled pastor does not know the scriptures. Please find the word 'pastor' in the new testament covenant and say where reference is made to male or female, nowhere is such written. Also where was anyone addressed by the title of Pastor, churches were households. The unbelieving male or husband cannot head the household of God, though he is head of his own natural household. Not every believer, male or female, gets married, they may also get widow or widower. There were both elder women and elder men in the church. There is Lydia with a believing household in the book of Acts 16:14-40; There is also 'the elect lady and her children' etc SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES says Jesus, Where has he said, "listen to men to understand?
The woman can’t preach,but she can teach.Who can she teach?She can teach the young girls how to become women and carry themselves according to the word of God.
As a woman who seeks to be more like Christ I agree with all that was said in this episode. We recently moved from Arizona where we attended a Sothern Baptist church to Loughborough Leicestershire, England, which meant we had to find a new church to be members of. It was hard due to the fact that churches are allowing women to preach under the authority of the elders or they appoint a woman outright to be the lead elder or pastor/preacher of their churches. It is crazy to me because Gods word is so clear on this issue. Thank you for addressing this issue...problem that is rampant these days.
This episode is far from scripture. Before Paul spoke, God spoke, his Son spoke. Is Paul in opposition to God and his Son? No! Is it not that you Anti-God anti-women people seek to use scripture to justify your own prejudice, hate and jealousy. Christ came to restore man (male and female) to original status of equal dominion. Only the regenerated born-again man can understand the restoration, not the unregenerated ungodly who remains in his sin but profess to know God, and wants to explain things of the Spirit of God. Which he cannot understand. 1CORINTHIANS 2:14. Christianity is an ungodly religion of Rome, with many having unscriptual philosophies and theories to suit their personal agendas, but they are not the Almighty Creator.
@@fransikajohn9005 The Bible is clear and is never self contradictory. It is God's Word and can not contradict itself. Therefore what you are trying to express falls outside the intention of the passage you are quoting. Try Numbers 23:19 or I Cor 14:33.
That's because men have become weak and rather be fishing then in a church pew or behind a pulpit on Sunday morning. Godly men are falling to the wayside and refusing to lead their home less a church as God intended.
To understand these verses, we must under- stand the situation in which Paul and Timothy worked. In first-century Jewish culture, women were not allowed to study. When Paul said that women should "learn qui- etly and submissively." he was offering them an amaz- ing new opportunity to learn God's Word. That they were to listen and learn quietly and submissivelys referred to an attitude of quietness and composure (not total silence). In addition, Paul himself acknowledges that women publicly prayed and prophesied (1 Corinthi- ans 11:5). Apparently, however, the women in the msl Ephesian church were abusing their newly acquired Christian freedom. Because these women were new10 converts, they did not yet have the necessary experi-m ence, knowledge, or Christian maturity to teach thoses who already had extensive scriptural education. 2:12 Some interpret this passage to mean that wormen should never teach in the assembled church; however, commentators point out that Paul did not forbid women from ever teaching. Paul's commended co- worker, Priscilia, taught Apolos. the great preacher (Acts 18.24-26). Paul frequently mentioned other women who held positions of responsibility in the church, Phoebe worked in the church (Romans 16:1). Mary. Tryphena, Tryphosa and Persis were the Lord's workers (Romans 16:6, 12), as were Euodia and Syntyche (Philippians 4:2). Paul vwas very likely pro- hibiting the Ephesian women, not all women, from teaching (see the note on 2:9-15). Paul did not want the Ephesian women to teach because they didn't yet have enough knowledge or experience. The Ephesian church had a particular prob- lem with false teachers. Evidently the women were especially susceptible to the false teachings (2 Timothy 3:1-9) because they did not yet have enough biblical knowledge to discern the truth. In addition, some of the women were apparently flaunting their newfound Christian freedom by wearing inappropriate clothing (2.9). Paul was telling Timothy not to put anyone (in this case, women) into position of leadership whool was not yet mature in the faith (see 3:6; 5:22). The same principle applies to churches today (see the note on 3:6). 2:13, 14 In previous letters Paul had discussed male/ female roles in marriage (Ephesians 5:21-33; Colos- sians 3:18, 19). Here he talks about male/female roles within the church. Some scholars see these verses about Adam and Eve as an illustration of what was hap- pening in the Ephesian church. Just as Eve had been deceived in the Garden of Eden, so the women in the church were being deceived by false teachers. And just as Adam was the first human created by God, so the men in the church in Ephesus should be the first to speak and teach, because they had more training. This view, then, stresses that Paul's teaching here is not universal but applies to churches with similar prob- lems. Other scholars, however, contend that the roles Paul points out are God's design for his created order-God established these roles to maintain har- mony in both the family and the church. 2:14 Paul is not excusing Adam for his part in the Fall (Genesis 3:6, 7, 17-19). On the contrary, in his letter women to the Romans Paul places the primary humanity's sinful nature on Adam (Romans 5:12-21).
@@David-_-_- Paul‘s words in Scripture hold the same weight and authority as Jesus’s. And when he is expressing an opinion rather than a command, he is sure to clarify that. Also, there are certain things that Jesus did not speak on, which is why Paul addresses them throughout his writings. One clear example is Paul’s writings on divorce. He addressed certain points that Jesus did not in his ministry because it never came up.
@@David-_-_- well I believe in the sovereignty of God and I believe that “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,” (2 Timothy 3:16). Which means I believe in the 100% infallibility and inerrancy of Scripture. How evil would God be to allow the Bible to contain commands that contradict His own heart? He would not be sovereign if you say He could not control what was put into His Word, and He would not be kind of allowed false information to be spread to millions of people because He knows it would 1. Confuse many people and cause them to stumble and 2. Directly contradict His own heart on those matters. To say that any part of Scripture is not just as much the Word of God as any other is to deny God’s true character. Furthermore, to disbelieve or disobey any word of Scripture is to disobey God. God cannot lie or speak falsely, so how could the Bible, if all of it is breathed out by God, contain any lie or hint of untruth? Jesus says in John 17:17 while praying to the Father, “Sanctify them in the truth; your word is TRUTH.” He does not say God’s word is true, as if it has a higher standard to conform to, but rather that the Bible itself IS the highest standard of truth that God has given us. Truth is what God says, and we have what He says, accurately but not exhaustively, in the Bible. In regards to churches shying away from Paul’s teaching and watering it down, it sounds like those are churches who do not know how to rightly handle the Word of God. In an attempt to be culturally relevant or whatever else the motivation is, they brush over or misinterpret God’s Word and its authority, which says to me if they do that in one area they are likely doing so in multiple areas. Regardless, every church I have been a member of the past few years, including the one I am currently involved in, has affirmed and taught that a woman shall not hold a position of authority in a church as outlined by the role of and elder. She may serve in the church and lead other women, but the role of a teaching pastor is not to be held by a woman, thus says the Lord through his apostle Paul. “Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.” 1 Timothy 2:11-12 I do not see in the verse that a woman cannot ask questions or learn or study or teach other women. Simply that she may not exercise authority over a man. Remain quiet when it comes to a pulpit position. A woman can share her testimony to the whole church… she is not teaching but rather sharing what God has done in her life. A woman can sing on the worship team and lead beautifully with her God-given talent. But a woman cannot teach the Word of God because in doing so she contradicts the Word of God which clearly states that she must not hold that position. In 2 Timothy 2, we see that included in the qualifications to be an overseer (or elder), he must be “the husband of one wife…” and by that very definition, a woman cannot be the husband of one wife. Therefore a woman cannot exercise the role of elder. I honestly have to say that unless you agree on the authority Scripture as being straight from the heart of God, being entirely true as he is true, there is really nothing more to discuss. And if you do agree on those points, then the truth of this teaching, as hard as it can be to swallow, should be revealed to you. And that’s really all I have to say about it.
Dan Sutton if you think me believing in woman being pastors is a sin. You are not getting full understanding of God’s Grace. This is not a salvation issue. This was a cultural issue. Period. Are you bided by the law with your thinking?
Dan Sutton go ahead and live by the law. And be judged on it. I choose Jesus and the gift of grace. Me watching a woman preach is a sin in your mind. And you condemn me for it. Using the Lords name in vain by doing so.
Dan Sutton wow. You do not know me. I ask you a question you refuse to answer. And judge another brother by trying to condemn me. Really? Do you really have the right to condemn me. Using the Lords name in vain by doing so. I know scripture very well. I do not need this legalistic Westbrook Baptist Church stuff.
I am a woman who at the beginning hated and appalled this teaching and found it demeaning and honestly speaking i hated Paul the servant of God because i thought he was sexist. But over time i got this understanding that this is the order that pleases God just like having a man as head of the family, Christ as head of the church or very simply like we have a President as the Head of a State, then the Cabinet and other branches of the government system: the President knows that his government can run best under certain designation of duties, rule and regulations : all have different roles to play and cannot be intermixed for smooth operation. But above all these, as a woman know that God has favored you and wants you to serve Him through this(OBEDIENCE), In submitting to this you are actually serving God , what is more beautiful than that. It is more of a power struggle for us women to want and actually fight for what is not supposed to be ours that was the first mistake we made in the garden of Eden lets break the curse and not listen to the devil and be beguiled again. I love serving God and its beautiful to do so and i find fulfillment in doing so. Lets listen to our Love (Yahushua ) who truly loves us and wants to lead us to eternal liberty. Love you my Beloved Sisters in Christ May His Peace richly be with you
The problem is, you think Christ's church is in a building. Tell me something, if a woman reads the Bible, is it only true if your husband says it is? Anyone who has the Holy Spirit is ordered to teach. People misinterpret scriptures. You need the Holy Spirit and it's not given to us by a man. It's given to us through Jesus. 99.9% of men preaching at churches now days are deceived. Read your bible and don't listen to anyone but God. Jesus talked to woman. When a woman asked Jesus for something He gave it to her. Jesus answered her. Are you telling me that men are better than Jesus and a woman can't speak in church. This guy is full of it. God gave us all souls. The maturity level of the spirit, you don't see male or female. You see a soul. Don't let anyone tell you what the bible says. You read and ask God. Jesus says let he who wants to be chief among you be the servant. A servant is not male or female. Do you see preachers now days serve at potlucks. Do you see them cleaning toilettes. The one cleaning the toilets is the chief among them. He who humbles himself will be exalted. Sweet heart God gave you a soul. They have a soul. Christ rent the veil. There are no more buildings/churches. The human body is the church. These false teachers emphasize their own books not God's. When you know who you are in the Lord, you will not tolerate doctrines like this. Bless you sister.
The bible says nothing about women not being allowed to preach!!!! Alexy your comments are so unbiblical and sound so ignorant and religious. You sound like a self righteous, high minded pharisee!! The book of Luke speaks of Anna, a WOMAN, who preached at the temple and who served God night and day. And she was certainly not condemned for it: *Luke 2 (KJV)* _36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;_ _37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day._ _38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem._ And you think simply being obedient and doing nothing is serving God? Why don't you start telling everyone about Jesus? Why don't you start witnessing for Jesus? A lazy Christian is a dead Christian. If you don't bear good fruit then you will be cut down. Just think of all the lives that you could have lead to the Lord if you had only spoken of Him!!!
Val O'Brien That’s like saying that even though Christ is the head of the church, the church is equal to Christ (50/50 marriage:wrong) God chose the hierarchy. Don’t fight it. God doesn’t copy the way the governments of this world run.
@@truthkeeper7816 before I get into the scriptures I will say this. I just turned 60 on this 5th of Jan 2019 I know that there are multiple millions of women who are not only smarter but some are way smarter than I am, in 7th grade, I got my first taste of Algebra and I failed it badly. the higher math was very hard for me, even converting fractions to decimals and vice versa. there are women who are physicists, chemists, Doctors, lawyers, electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, name the profession and women are just as smart and capable as men, women who hold the same credentials as men should be paid the same as men. there are women who are physically stronger than me, I have RA really bad so my strength is nowhere near what it used to be. God is the one who set the bounds in the Church. Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. 1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 1Co 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. 1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. 1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil. 1Ti 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre; 1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience. 1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 1Ti 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 1Ti 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; Tit 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour; Tit 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Tit 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: Tit 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. Tit 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; Tit 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers. the qualification of the Bishop (pastor/preacher) and the Deacon are to be the Husband of one wife. there is no way that a woman can be the husband of one wife. not to mention the fact that the Commandments of the Lord specify that women are to be in SILENCE in the Church. go back and read 1 Sam 15:1-26 Saul the King of Israel is rejected from being King because he rejected the Word of the Lord 1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king. 1Sa 15:26 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel. this is a lesson for us even today, that if we reject the Word of God we too will be rejected. those women who are preaching, teaching and pastoring churches with men in them are rejecting the Word of God to do their will in His Name. How serious is God concerning His Word? Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name. Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. Deu 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. Deu 17:11 According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left. Ezr 6:11 Also I have made a decree, that whosoever shall alter this word, let timber be pulled down from his house, and being set up, let him be hanged thereon; and let his house be made a dunghill for this. Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. Jer 23:36 And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God. Jer 26:2 Thus saith the LORD; Stand in the court of the LORD'S house, and speak unto all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the LORD'S house, all the words that I command thee to speak unto them; diminish not a word: Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 2Co 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. 2Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction. Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. God does not like it when His Word is added too, Diminished aught from or changed in any way. if you reject the Word of God then you too will be rejected.
Yes, and society has played the price ever since. That is where the attack on masculinity has come from - Satan because he knows that a society of "feminine" men cannot lead their households or future generations as God has commanded.
Another chauvinistic quotation! Men and women are different. In the first English case about sex change, the Judge decided that people can change their sex, but not their gender. The woman in that case has since been awarded an MBE. I believe that gender exists only in our Universe, not in Heaven. God has no gender, but we have no pronoun for that, so we use "He." About a Jew who claimed to have no gender, Wikipedia used "They."
@@misspriss2482 Masculine men have taken over, but they're the ungodly sort, yet so many women lust after them. Satan doesn't necessarily want to take masculinity away. He wants to take away godly masculinity away. Andrew Tate, for instance, is a man women lust after, despite him being an unrepentant fornicator. He's basically the embodiment of the very things that caused feminism to rise and weaken families even futher.
This is an excellent & thorough (NOT exhaustive, but...thorough) answer to this issue. The problem with people deciding opposite of this is their approach to the issue & texts involved (include 1Cor. 14:34-40, & Titus 2:3-5) is to not handle these scriptures exegetically....but, eisegetically! The way that Pastor John went backwards to explain the situation works in these other passages as well. In the 1st Corinthians passage...Paul indicates in v.38 that if a man is determined to be ignorant...let him be so. WHY? In v.37, Paul had just said that if any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual...let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD ! NOW....verse 38 makes sense, because if they will still have contention concerning this matter...let them be ignorant...you can't reason with them on it, because they see themselves as more authoritative than the LORD. Likewise....in Titus...what/who/where & why.... were the AGED women encouraged to teach? V.3 "...teachers of good things; teaching YOUNG women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers of the home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the Word of God be not blasphemed." Now, go back through that passage and see if you can answer the questions of WHAT was to be taught...to WHO...WHERE was it to be taught...and WHY were these things to be taught? These were teachings that were so that God's word would not be blasphemed.
It requires so much explanation, as Paul also says women should “prophesy” with their head covered… this happens in a public setting of combined congregation and holds a level of authority and teaching with men present and Paul is affirming women in this. Clearly, this passage cannot simply mean “women be completely quiet”.
The question should read, " Will God also approve of women preachers, when the congregationalelders approve them?" The simple, biblical answer, is NO! Elders who approve of such a policy aren't sufficiently well-grounded in Scripture to qualify as elders.
@@ms.playboyinternational393 The word " abomination" may be too strong a descriptive, " For who hath known the mind of God?" (Rom. 11:34a). The clear teaching of the Apostle Paul who received revelational instructions from The Almighty is that women are to learn in silence (1 Tim. 2:11,12) and that "...if a man desire the office of a bishop (elder/presbyter/pastor), HE (emphasis mine) desireth a good work." Nowhere in Scripture is a woman given God's approval to preach/teach within the ordained office of a pastor or evangelist. However, mature women may teach younger women as per Titus 2:3. If a woman assumes the role of preaching that is clearly restricted to men, she does so in contravention of the Lord's unequivocal instructions.
@@r.crompton2286 why would you not call it sin, open rebellion and thus an abomination, for a man to receieve teaching from a woman in matters of scripture?
@@troywright359 There have been many circumstances on the mission field where willing, qualified men were unavailable to teach the heathen tribes and so available women with Bible knowledge and language skills were asked to stand in their place -- to teach any and all who have "ears to hear." In these less than ideal situations I am sure that God would not have deemed their service to be a sin or abomination. Any such abomination would certainly apply to gifted men who have failed to heed the call of God and engage in teaching God's Word as He has ordained. In North America where there are plenty of available men to teach other men God's Word, we can assume that any woman who takes the role of a pastor/presbyter/bishop is clearly not "sent" by God but "went" instead. That's an abomination. But on the mission field it's not always so clearly black and white.
Paul said "Woman have to cover their hair with veile", "If Woman shave her hair, Its her sahmeness. Long hair is honor of woman." Then, what? Am I have to wear a hijab? LoL. Does every woman who has short hair or shaved hair is wrong? It makes no sense. What the words.
Paul said "Woman doesn't allow to asking at church. If she want, she have to ask her hudsband at home.". Well, Let's do what paul said. Women wearing hijab and being quiet, Only Men talking at the church. Sounds cool, right? Little confused that It's justice from Paul not from God. LoL.
@Drinker_Of_ Milk because the apostles were still alive, preaching and teaching them in person. And when they were not around or elsewhere the apostles wrote letters to those churches to teach them which is what these letters are unless you are saying what they taught and what they wrote were different in which case they were teaching the churches different things which means the apostles were not in agreement on what jesus wanted to be taught and revealed to the church. Paul was accepted by the other apostles as an apostle so they must have agreed on his teachings which means they would not have an issue with his teachings on what qualifies an elder as they would have taught the same.
I agree, everyone should know their role and play their part. we think we have the bible more figured out now then the early Christians did. We need to go back to the writings of the early Christians and their beliefs so we can learn with accuracy how we should conduct ourselves in the way they did.
It's easy. You should keep your women silent in places of worship and make sure that slaves obey their masters. Unless you think that you're smarter than the early Christians?
@@Ike-un6mc Lol that comment was from four years ago. Regardless, early Christians had some ridiculous ideas that have no place in the modern world. I would broaden that to include many of the ideas presented in the Bible.
@@bhilldesign I've actually been looking into this a lot more since I wrote my first comment and I got more context to it. From other explanations I've read, the church in Ephesus had members who used to worship the goddess Artemis, and in their mythology, Artemis was born first then she helped birth her twin brother Apollo. So because of that they glorified women to the point where they elevated them above men. The Greek word used in that Scripture that's translated to 'authority' was referring to an aggressive and domineering kind of authority. So essentially, women in the Ephesian church were preaching in a way that they were being domineering over men. Paul was speaking against a gender hierarchy that makes one gender "superior" to another because that's not even godly. And it's also valid the other way round if you think about it. So it all adds up the way I see it, even with Pastor John's explanation about not doing things in a way that goes against the order God put in place. Plus, we're all constantly learning and re-learning God's word, so we should give people we don't agree with grace to grow in their knowledge and understanding of of the Scriptures.
@@gabriellachieng God could have created Adam and Eve simultaneously but he didn't. Only the males in the Levi tribe were given the priestly office. Jesus had 12 male disciples. The females that were always with Jesus were for another purpose. Mark 15:40. There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome; 41. (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him;) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.
@@bhilldesign Read Colossens 2 vers 8 and 1 Timothy 2 vers 11-14. "And if you do not understand something, ask Me", says God, "and I will answer you."!!!
If women would consider the weight of eternity that is on the shoulders of a qualified pastor. A MAN that meets all the qualifications is held to such a high standard with such a high level of accountability that it's actually terrifying if not divinely called and equipped.
I don't think that women (or at least for me) want to be allowed to preach because they want the glory of it. I thjnknits because the entire bible reinforces the idea that God loves men and created men for himself. . . Women were just created for the sake of men. It just feels like God doesnt really love women and it's an exceptionally painful realization.
@@johnbeasley7654 I have heard that there is a chamber in hell specifically for women pastors who had authority over men so yes, the eternal consequences are not worth it! After one minute of burning, no woman will think it is worth it.
As a woman with a strong desire to spread the word when and where God leads me, this is a gorgeous explanation! I would also add that the culture of this time would find a woman in a church leadership role stepping not only into leadership but into a position of authority to which she was generally unaccustomed in that culture. Imagining the level of ego that could befall a person who had always held something more akin to a servant's role once thrust into authority, I can see how especially at that time such a thing would be dangerous not only to her own spirituality but to others'. Furthermore, how would others perceive anything she had to say, as she was acting in a manner so foreign to a women's situation in society? Fast forward to a modern, feminist age, women have all sorts of powers and authorities and so would be less likely than their biblical-era counterparts to become overwhelmed by their new position...HOWEVER, that does not excuse what Paul says nor what the Old Testament says about the roles of men and women, nor do those references completely deny our participation in spreading the word in our communities. What the pastor says in this video is 110% applicable and elegant and I am glad to have heard it.
You cannot change the fact that ‘ woman ‘ was made from ‘ Man ‘ whom was made by GOD “ in His own Image “ ! Fast Forward. ......... one now lives in the United Kingdom where the most senior police person is a Woman married to a Woman ! One wonders what the Saint Paul might be saying about that now ! ! It has to be a catastrophic decision from any Christian standpoint. We are , however , no longer a Christian Country and are defined by our Royals as , “ All Faiths “. What ‘ Faith ‘ , I wonder , in the World would tolerate such a shocking (from the Christian Bible standpoint) Relationship ? !
@@allanmiddleton678 When God made the first Adam, Eve was within him, the original oneness. That is what marriage should look like. Oneness. The husband when he looks at his wife he is looking at himself. Then he must ask, how should I treat me?
@@allanmiddleton678 He would say nothing about a woman married to a woman, unless either of them were professing christians. We do not judge the unbeliever, that is for God.
We are in for a surprise when we get to Heaven, that’s all I can say , I don’t believe in a woman usurping authority over a man but , going out and preaching or proclaiming the gospel isn’t forbidden , the woman at the well went straight to the men and some believed
Im a strong minded choleric female but I never had a problem with the men doing the preaching! women can teach women but women cannot teach men in a congregational or any other formal teaching scenario; its not Gods order no matter how talented the woman is. its against the Bibles word.
I still struggle with this interpretation. And not because I want to be a pastor or leader. I would not do that for a million dollars! Churches I have gone to have allowed women to preach / teach. My husband seems to think it is ok. It does disturb me because it makes me feel as if women as not as important as men. But for those of you who really believe this is the order remember God will judge leaders more harshly and that is part of why I would never want to be a leader. However, I believe God can do what He wants. He chose Deborah and Esther. I say this not to argue, but to express my studying on this topic. I must wrestle with what the Bible says for myself.
I'm 22 years old . . . And I want to denounce my faith altogether because these passages along with some of the ugliest words against women I've ever witnessed coming from the mouths of Christian men have driven me to want to kill myself just for being born a woman. My parents are the only thing keeping me from following through. But I cannot imagine spending an eternity with a being that creates an entire gender for the submission of the other. I'm struggling so badly with this. And it is not that I desire power . . . It makes me feel unloved and less valued by God. Like he'd rather work with and through men and not women. I didn't ask to be here and I didnt ask to be a woman.
@@Contrarian-v7p THE MILLION-DOLLAR QUESTION: Will you go to Heaven when you die? Have you lied, stolen, used God’s name in vain, or lusted (which Jesus said was adultery, Mt. 5:28)? If so, God sees you as a liar, thief, blasphemer, and adulterer at heart; and we’ve only looked at four of the Ten Commandments. If you die in your sins, you will end up in a terrible place called Hell. But there's good news. Though we broke God's Law, Jesus paid the fine by dying on the cross: "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (Jn. 3:16). Then Jesus rose from the dead and was seen by hundreds of eyewitnesses. He fulfilled all the prophecies of the promised Savior. Please, today, repent and trust Jesus, and God will forgive you and grant you the gift of eternal life (Eph. 2:8,9). Then, to show your gratitude, read the Bible daily and obey it, join a Christian church, and be baptized.
1 Corinthians 14:33-38 KJV [33] For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. [34] Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. [35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. [36] What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? [37] If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. [38] But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
To me, its understandable that women would want to preach and teach. People get very angry about women wanting to preach or teach when, for some women, it's a talent that they have. It's also understandable that women would not want this piece of advice from timothy to be true. If it weren't true that in history there is a pervasive tendency of men abusing this authority over women, I'm sure women wouldn't be so sore about this statement. It seems that men in many ways have free reign in regards to the things that they are permitted to do whereas women are limited. It doesn't seem fair to me, as a woman. I also don't think that feminism at its very core is a bad thing or that it is detrimental to living a christian life. When God said he would make the man a "helper" it did not refer to someone subordinate or an assistant. This English word "helper" diminishes the meaning of the word in Hebrew. The word is used 21 times in the old testament and 16 of those times its referring to God. In the Hebrew text, the phrase "a suitable helper for him" doesn't even hint at subordination. Look it up. Also, when Jesus came, the new Adam, and fulfilled the prophecy in Genesis 3, did he not set right what was done wrong by Adam and Eve? So wouldn't living in Christ bring us back to the original relational dynamic set forth in Genesis. I know that certain genders are better suited to certain things then others and I know that the bible is the word of God and is truth. I guess I just need to pray, because it just seems to me like people like to use these few scriptures to keep limitations on women. Throughout history and even in conversations like this, it seems like under assertions of "it is what it is" or "stop trying to change the scriptures!" is a current of maintaining control or power. Again, I guess I need to study more or pray more.
I don't know anymore. I'm only 22 and trying to figure this out but the things Ive seen men do to women even in the church and how they treat them while clobbering them with those bible passages . . . . It's actually made me borderline suicidal, I'm not gonna lie. Christ was supposed to bring freedom but I have never felt more trapped.
@@Contrarian-v7p When Cain was having dark thoughts about his brother Abel, God told him that sin was crouching at his door but that he must rule over it. Suicidal and dark thoughts are definitely the devil crouching at your door. The enemy uses the word of God as well as people in the church to try to get us to reject God and fall into despair. I understand your feelings. When reading sometimes it feels like God thinks that women are second-class citizens. However, my experiences with God tell me differently. I also believe that God has put talents within me and purposed me to lead in some way in the church. I trust that God will figure out how to guide me into my purpose while also abiding by his word. Don't let the enemy make you feel trapped! You are not! Also, maybe find another church. If this church is making you feel this way I can't imagine that this is the right home for you. God knew you before he created you and he predestined you for purpose and good works. He will not let any man or woman stand in the way of what he has set out for you to do. Tell God how you feel, tell him how you think its unfair and that you don't want to be trapped, God hears and responds to a broken and humble heart. You ARE free in Christ, this journey is a lifelong one. Be a little bit more patient and God will bring you out of this season.
@@tys8965 I really appreciate your encouragement but I dont think this is something I can overcome. My problem is that even within the context of the creation account, the argument is that men alone were created in the image of God to bear his glory and dominion over the earth. Their superior physical strength and speed attests to that because those are the traits most suited to that purpose. Women were made for men, for their glory and not God's. Women were made significantly physically weaker than men and I understand that men were supposed to protect women but if God knew that sin would create a world of violence, he would know how disproportionately women would be on the receiving end of that violence and pain and he STILL chose to give us the physical disadvantage despite being more vulnerable as the result of the curse pronounced at Eden. That along with a clear male preference throughout the bible . . . I cannot describe to you how that makes me feel. It makes me feel so incredibly worthless and unloved. It makes me hate my body just for being female. It makes me feel like I am nothing more than an add-on gift to men and like I'm not a whole person. Like God would rather deal with and fellowship with men. It makes me want to hate God. I feel like an outsider because the entire Godhead and angels are all male. Like there is an inherent quality of grandeur they all have that I cannot partake in. I didnt ask to be female. I've tried praying about it but nothing happens and I just end up not wanting to pray at all because it now feels as of there is some barrier between me and God. I'm trying to deal with this but I can honestly say that if not for my parents who I know would be crushed by it, I would take my own life without any reservation. I'm sorry to unload this on you as a stranger but I cannot speak to anyone else and I feel I'll explode if I dont get it out.
@@Contrarian-v7p Hi Jade! It's no problem, honestly. I've dealt with many of the thoughts that you are experiencing and in different ways I have also experienced a darkness that I thought I could not overcome. When reading the bible, whether we know it or not, many times we're looking for confirmation of something we already believe to be true. If that's the case, you will find it and it will be heartbreaking. Many times during my struggles with fear, I've looked to the scriptures hoping to find assurance but they only incited greater fear and anxiety. It made me think that God was a tyrant, who wanted to do whatever he wanted with my life and I didn't have any choice in the matter. He could kill me, give me a disease, watch me suffer and I just had to accept it because he's God. Reading the bible only proved these things to me. However, when those thoughts and reasonings were at the front of my mind making me bitter and resentful and angry, in the back of my mind were my experiences. I'd never starved or went without basic needs, I had never been seriously sick or ill and both of my parents are alive and love me. I'd also prayed and felt joy/peace before, I'd felt like I heard God speak to me before and I looked at the goodness of God in my life and in the lives of others. My journey to the other side started when I joined a new church community. I got involved and joined a year long program, reading through the bible with a pastor and other ladies. My faith went up and down. I had tons of doubts and I'm sure the pastor thought I was attacking him with my dissecting and incendiary questions. This was probably the lowest point for me, I also thought a lot about suicide. When I was in the throws of mental turmoil, I thought that dying would be better than continuing to live like this. At the end of the program, I did a month long fast and I outlined clear results I wanted to get from the Lord. It took a while but He began to speak to me through sermons, journaling, the bible and other Christians. That was the beginning of an up and down journey of ascent out of 4 years of fear, anxiety, depression and mental torture. It's been 6 months since that fast and I'm now starting to experience the truth of God through the holy spirit. Retrospectively, I 100% know that I needed to go through what I went through to have this solid faith in God, his love, his will, and his purpose in my life. It can feel unbearable and bleak but don't give up. Find a good community, also go to therapy, I started therapy a year ago and it really helped me to get everything out of my mind. God is not a man. He does not have a gender. God is Spirit (Jn 4:24). He made both man and woman in his image. Think about the way God's character is described "merciful, compassionate, slow to anger, forgiving, loving, comforting..." which sex usually embodies those qualities? Women! Think about how the holy spirit is described "a comforter, a helper, an advocate, wise" women are all of those things and more. The bible is God's inspired word but it is also a historical text that was written by men over centuries, we have to expect that cultural norms will affect the tone, word choice and intended audiences. The God of the universe is unfathomably more multidimensional than we can ever understand and I believe that God created women for himself, just like the entire universe was created for himself. I wish we would talk on the phone. If you're open to that I can direct message you my information. Pslam 42:5...
@@tys8965 Can I ask you a favour? Please read this article and tell me what you think about it: www.9marks.org/article/man-and-woman-in-creation-genesis-1-and-2/ It has been the most comprehensive explanation of the Genesis story and one that has truly confirmed my fears. Thank you, for taking the time out of your day to write out such a thoughtful and kind response. And thank you for offering to call me, I appreciate it but I will have to decline. I'm done. I cant do this anymore, the fact that women have to squint and do copious amounts of background research just to justify not being treated like second class citizens is telling. I never thought living in salvation would ever make me suicidal but it is. I've had the same grievances you've had and for the longest time I just had to push through, ignore it, because God is God. I'm sick of it. I do not desire to spend eternity with a being that does not love me. I dont know what will happen to my soul, perhaps I was never truly saved at all. Either way, I am well and truly finished.
A woman can minister to other women. She can also give a report of some Christian service to a congregation including men. She may not minister the word to men. I would change the question to 'Should elders who affirm that a woman should preach to men, be elders in the first place?
@Douglas @Jade Lee just a little FYI: do you know that man in Israël MUST go to the synagoge, and that the woman are allowed to go, but it is not obligated for they naturally live closer to God and are softer in nature ;-)
@Douglas I did not say that women are allowed to talk in church, I said that women live closer to God naturally. According to the Jewish tradition (= The olive tree on which we are grafted by grace, as you can read in the NT). Your answer is a perfect example about being harder than women. And again a little FYI: Israel still is Gods people, not because they listen so good to Him, but because of His covenant with Abraham (genesis 15) and He will never break His word. He did not and will not break His covenant with them and there is a great place for them in the future. They are going back to the land as we speak, predicted in the prophets. So I would really, really low down your tongue about saying that they are unredeemed and put yourself above them. I think you know the fruit of the Spirit in Gal 5.... try to live it out. You are not the one to judge, only God is (fortunately).
The preaching issue is low-hanging fruit in some ways, as the issue branches out to all the various meetings of God's people. Elders and godly men need to lead in all gatherings, like the prayer meetings and even times of fellowship. I went to a prayer meeting for the second time last night, and after bringing up the need for an elder or godly man to lead she gave her "defense" that she has a gift of prayer, and that she puts herself under the authority of the senior pastor. Somehow her "gift" and lip service to a compromising pastor is sufficient. Long story short, I didn't know until I said bye that the silent man nearby her was her husband. Where are the men? We are being judged in many ways because of the weak men in God's house.
So true, we have such a high calling of ministry in our own roles. "Male and female He created them" it is like fine clockwork, perfectly orchestrated by our creator from the beginning.
@@forhisglory8471(Genesis 2:24 KJV) Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one >> flesh.
No. Women cannot teach men in a weekly assembly of men or with men in it. Yes, they may teach other women and/or children. But in no circumstances men.
Read 1st Corinthians . it is to brothers and sisters. Chapter 14. .is when the church is together. Read verse 26.do u see about all ? And teach? Now who do u think Paul is saying this to.
Gabrielle Kelly Roger Olsen goes around to so many of these Christian videos with the titles of 'woman are not to preach in the church' and numerous people have politely went into so much detail with him to show where he is manipulating his scriptures to fit his modern-day main-stream religious narratives He even relies on the notorious NIV Bible versions which has actually been proven to be one of the worst accurate Bibles, and the ESV to have some big problems as well, and therefore neither of those can be trusted nearly as often as we can trust the KJV and the NLT
@Drinker_Of_ Milk Nothing ridiculous about the point I made for the NIV and ESV not being nearly as reliable as the KJV and NLT Concerning the NLT, I never said or implied it is a literal translation. Its been well-known for decades the NLT is a very nice side addition to accompany the KJV whereby making things easier to read until being able to just mostly use the KJV ...and you can go translation and scholar mining for whatever you want to fit your narratives, but we've already been here dozens upon dozen of times, easily, where people claim the this's and thats' about their NIV and ESV being more accurate, when we can provide just as many scholars who are providing a much stronger case against the new modern-day scholars who have become partial in their translations due to the rise in what God said would certainly happen in these end times which is the falling away from His true Word and trying to promote the modern-day main-stream-religion's false doctrines, but the back n forth stuff of that never leads to anything other than us spending a week's worth of it that gets nowhere and then merely having to agree to disagree and walk away
Before I was a Christian I felt that this scripture was sexist but through getting to know scripture and God it becomes abundantly clear that God knows what is best for us because He designed us. This does not make us women second-class citizens. Think of it as people within a company who each have their own specific job they were trained for. As a woman I have been designed to be more emotional than the typical male. That's what helps me to be a more compassionate mother who is sensitive her to childrens' needs and fragile spirits. It's not a bad thing at all and it is one of the things that makes me a great caretaker both in the home and in my career.
So where in the body of Christ is room for a woman who chooses to remain unwed and not bear children or for infertile women? Do you believe female terminal value is in marriage and motherhood? Whereas men have potential far beyond that and receive a spouse and children as an add-on blessing . . . But for women it's their whole value?
In Ephesians Chapter5 v.21-24...the husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of his body which is the church...Christ ultimately is the head of all men and women. This does not mean men are head of all women. Women do not go through men to get to God...Also look at Ephesians Chapter 4 starting at verse 4..we are all one body , we have the same spirit,and we have all been called to the same glorious future...then in verse 7..He has given each of us a special gift according to the generosity of Christ..What Paul was addressing in his letters to the church in Corinth concerned orderly and peaceful living and ridding themselves of pride and false teachings... they were in turmoil on every aspect of life-and needed to learn how to be orderly and peaceful. People were talking all at once..women were arguing with their husbands in public and many claimed false truths... the reference to be silent applied to talking out of turn or over the top of others which was disruptive and arrogant
Jennifer Thom, yes you are correct, men seem to evade that issue and most of them know this. I don't understand why the books in the Bible of the women that showed demonstrated much faith, love, courage in the Bible are not preached about. And they definitely hate to even mention Prophetess Deborah. I thought the whole bible is supposed to be preached and teached, how are they still keeping God commandments?.
@@eric_martindale1711 Sorry I didnt see your reply . . . You didnt tag me correctly. Not angry haha, amused. All these verses in 1 Timothy 2:8-15 are about specific people and specific problems in the Ephesian church. These verses are corrective. They are not general teaching. This doesn’t mean that principles cannot be derived from these verses, but we need to understand Paul’s intent here before we work out any principles and apply them more broadly. Understanding Paul’s intent is not straightforward, however; and we need to acknowledge that 1 Timothy 2:12 is not as clear in the original Greek as in most English translations.
@@eric_martindale1711 reason I believe 1 Timothy 2:12 is about a particular couple, and not referring to all women in general, is because the context of the second half of 1 Timothy 2 is the problem behaviour of particular people in the Ephesian church. ~ In 1 Timothy 2:8, Paul addresses the problem of specific men. He is not speaking about all Christian men, only those who were praying with unresolved anger issues and quarrels, and Paul offers correction to their behaviour. ~ In 1 Timothy 2:9-10, Paul addresses the problem of specific women, certain rich women who were wearing luxurious hairstyles, jewels and clothing. These two verses do not refer to all Christian women, only to those who were showing off their wealth, and Paul offers correction. ~ In 1 Timothy 2:11-15, Paul narrows his focus to the problem behaviour of one of these rich women. This woman was not ready to teach-she needed to learn quietly-and she was acting in a domineering or controlling manner (Greek: authenteõ) towards a man, most likely her husband. Her controlling behaviour may have stemmed from a concern about the effects of sex and procreation on salvation, a not uncommon concern in the early church.
Paul didn't write 1 Timothy - and Gods divine order was men and women in equality - otherwise the curse in Genesis 3:16 wouldn't have been a curse. Search your heart and really see if you think that in heaven that in any way men will have more authority than women, and the amount of chances that you take to break them down - how many will God bring to mind as sins against the church on Judgement Day? More women than before want to be house wives and people prefer the traditional lifestyle of a dad working and a mother raising their kids - these are gen Y and Z people! So you are full of it! Being used by the enemy to put forth distracting messaging and clouding what the gospel stands for. Anyone who thinks they wouldn't have been a Pharisee and they would have stood with Christ - thinks FAAAARRRRR too much of themselves. Because ALL the sheep scattered - out of the thousands - no one. It was the religious elite of the day clinging to the juvenile nature of their milk faith, while swallowing camels whole. You must search for the truth - lest you try and stop a miracle as to not offend someone.
Good discussion and approach to the text. I’d also add for clarity that the Bible must be treated as a whole and complete work that compliments and commentates on itself.
The appeal to order of creation also is applied in 1 Cor 11 with regard to head coverings and is even paired with a strongly worded appeal to nature, and yet many churches consider this admonition to be cultural. I don't see a consistent hermeneutic that allows women to pray without head covering but restricts teaching.
Biblical Facts: Paul the Apostle was the last apostle. Anyone who declares otherwise is either wilfully ignorant of Biblical truth or blatantly evil and in rebellion against Almighty GOD. The "Social Gospel" is not the Gospel of the Holy Bible and the Lord Jesus Christ who was born of the virgin Mary of Jewish (Hebrew, Semitic,Caucasoid) ancestry.
I think it's more about how it affects the role of the man than it is about what's 'forbidden for a woman'. There's something about a woman being the spiritual leader of men that just simply isn't biblical and goes against the order God created... periodt.
Although WOMEN must have an affirmation to preach in many churches and be approved by elders created systems - it's a perverse interpretation of God's ordinances. And the reason is simple: in Gen 3:15, women have been put on the line to carry The Seed by God. That's why so many women aren't allowed to be ministers, leaders, or even speak from the stages in so many churches... she may deliver what God put in her and that is DANGEROUS to the so-called "biblical authority" created by rulers of this world. "And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head,..."
@@j-mshistorycorner6932 you totally miss the point, it's not about silencing women, it is about God ordained roles and clearly Deborah was not a pastor and teacher in the church, no female was because God forbids it in the Bible. Unless you have chapter and verse I don't care about your convoluted arguments.
@@doctrinalwatchdog6268 You seem to have forgotten Huldah, Priscilla, a female deaconess mentioned at one point, and the woman Junia described as being an apostle. AND there is no prohibition on women being a pastor or teacher in the church. 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 can not mean what it's traditionally understood to mean because Paul elsewhere talks favourably about women praying & prophesying in the church. 1 Timothy 2:12 is grammatically (in the Greek) addressed at a single domineering woman (the word "authority" here means to domineer or bully or force someone to do something against their will - kinda like my father, who used these verses as justification), and the word "teach" is grammatically unconnected to the word "men" - she is being forbidden to teach period, and gender has nothing to do with it.
I enjoyed this listen. The thing I can appreciate about this, is that in the past, Piper has spoken about his mum being the spiritual head/authority in his home while his dad was away preaching. Once his father came home, his mom happily returned the responsibility to his Dad. That, for me, pretty much sums it up. If there are men present to lead, let them lead. That's with home and church. Biblically speaking, there are examples in the Bible where women led men. Deborah is the first example that comes to mind. She governed the nation of Israel. Before her, Miriam led the Israelites, men and women in praise after they had crossed the red sea and in the New Testament, Priscilla taught the scriptures to men and women in her home along with her husband. Both of these are examples of Church Leadership. I'm not thrown by what Piper has said...but that may be because I know some more of the background or context where this couched. I would agree though, the audio in this video needs added clarification. Which is why he mentioned the available literature on Desiring God website.
@DyingToLiveForJesus "Head of the house" is not even in the bible. Look it up. You wont find it anywhere. If women cannot teach men then Priscilla, a woman praised by Paul, was a sinner because she taught Apollos.
@DyingToLiveForJesus Lol. So you rely on an English translation of an ancient Greek manuscript and then expect to correctly translate it with a foreign cultural lens? In the Greek, Ephesians 5:22 makes no sense without 5:21 (“submit to one another”). This is because verse 22 borrows the sense of “submit” from verse 21. There is no verb or participle that means “submit” in verse 22 in some of the oldest Greek manuscripts. It was not unusual for Paul to make verbs and verbal ideas do double duty. What this does is create a sense of mutual submission. Husbands arent told to "lead" like Christ -theyre told to love their wives like Christ. Women in that culture were already fully "submitting" to their husbands -they were considered their property. Paul is proposing a radical reconfigurement of marriage. Again, give me a single scripture where men are told to lead.
@DyingToLiveForJesus Maybe I'd take your warning seriously if you didnt place God's ACTUAL word (the Hebrew and Greek) over the English. I didnt add or take anything away.
Scripture doesn't say that they taught together. It says that there was a church in their home. There's a difference. Now, Priscilla and Aquila privately invited someone to their home and explained the Scripture more thoroughly to him, but again, this doesn't say that they preached together. Explaining Scripture to someone is not the same thing as standing in the pulpit preaching to the entire congregation. People want to extrapolate this because women want to preach. I have also heard women justify this because they have the gift of teaching. Scripture doesn't say that you can't use your gift appropriately. There are a lot of areas a woman can use this gift: leading a small women's group, teaching an all-women's Sunday School class, witnessing to people on the street. None of those are a violation of God's Word. Standing in a pulpit teaching men is not an appropriate use of that gift. We cannot allow the culture to influence our interpretation of God's Word.
I would like to include that testimony of experiences a woman has endured could be given on a Sunday still as long as a man is teaching the lesson involved. This still brings a woman in without making her the teacher herself.
Thank you! I went to a church last week and the pastor’s wife preached. I was so upset by this. I’m a women as well. We can’t have one foot in and one foot out with the scriptures. Follow the Bible, or not at all.
I don’t get it. My grandmother is a reverend and has all the gifts of the Holy Spirit. God continuously uses her to talk to His people. Of course my grandfather (the main preacher) is the one who mainly preaches, but my grandmother also teaches Gods word to the church. There’s also another lady that preaches in church.
@@Ashley-ro4xz God's word is the authority of His church not your grandmother or anyone else. Has all the gifts of the Holy Spirit?? Watch yourselves, blasphemy of the Spirit is an unforgivable sin
God's word is clear regarding this issue. Women who seek to be church elders or preachers to have authority over men in the church, or in the home, defy God's law and it represents a rebellion against the design for His creation. So it is equally destructive for men not to fulfill their responsibility as Christ like leaders by abrogating their duties. Both have serious consequences for all involved.
Finally, some real courage from the pulpit and some real wisdom in the comment section. I have a wife and two daughters. They are all born again Christians as am I. They have much to add to the body of Christ, but in God's ordained order; not according to the every changing whims of society.
And yet many who agree with this interpretation of 2 Timothy are content to let women teach or lead children’s ministry. Who did Jesus entrust to announce to the disciples that he was risen from the dead (the most important bit of good news in the gospel)? Women. Paul names Junia (a woman) as prominent among the apostles in Romans 16:7. This issue is not as cut and dry as this one passage in Timothy would make it seem. The whole of scripture must be taken in to account as well. Context matters greatly.
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Reply for it if desired. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. That is how a woman could judge men of their sins, including homicide. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles. To say a woman can be a Judge over Israel, but a woman can't be an elder in a small church, just doesn't make any sense scripturally.
i understand what pastor john is saying...but how is it that Deborah in the bible was judge over all israel? was that wrong for her to be a judge? if she was a judge that put her in a place of authority.
By my understanding there is an awful lot in the old testament that doesn't fit with God's model for how we should live, but for reasons I don't fully understand there is no comment on it being wrong, examples are things like Jacob having 2 wives and then also having children with their servants, or Solomon having many wives and concubines. Sorry this isn't a great answer, but it's a step to open our eyes to the wider narrative of the bible. As knowledge increases it seems at first you find inconsistencies, then you resolve them, and then the same thing happens all over again.
Hi Zahira, being a judge in Israel was akin to being a judge in a court of law today. Deborah functioned as one who resided over disputes in a court of law. That isn't the same as having oversight in a church fellowship and responsibility before God for teaching doctrine. Deborah in the OT was not a Levite priest and therefore would never have taught doctrine over Israel (i.e. the Mosaic law at that time). :-)
@@fromfierytrialstofreedom1992 where does it say that Levites are prophets? They are supposed to be priests, not prophets. And Deborah was a prophet of God! She was inquired of the rulers of God, just like Samuel.
@@anneharrison1849 Deborah doesn't fall into those categories. She spoke directly from God's revelations to her. And whatever she spoke was followed to fulfil God's will.
@@ramsaval Hello N Sd. I'm a bit tired tonight so I might be missing something here ... but the Bible doesn't say that Levites were prophets and neither did I. Not sure what you're saying ... perhaps you misread my comment above?
It is two different thing 1. Woman to teach over a man 2. Woman to teach in the church. In my observation of the text from verse 11 to 15 this refers to the attitude or manner of men and woman in the church.
@@j-mshistorycorner6932 -- Church leaders can only be men, because only men can be the husband of one wife. I Tim 3:2 Also, I Timothy, there is no 'original Aramaic', because Paul wrote the letter in Greek.
@@gregb6469 The NT was primarily written in Hebrew and Aramaic, but that's for another discussion. And that phrase was a expression used to mean married - whether male or female.
@@j-mshistorycorner6932 -- You are confused. It is the Old Testament that was written in Hebrew and Aramaic. The New Testament was written entirely in Greek.
Good video. I know of a situation where there's a woman that is the pastor of her church, and her husband stays at home and takes care of the kids. She justifies it by the fact that he's still the head of the household, but according to this video, that doesn't take away from what God's where it has to say on this issue. Not to be mean, but just because her husband is okay with it doesn't mean that God is. She seems like a nice person though ,🤷🏿♂️
I really don't understand the debate. I could understand if there was a lot of text about this; but it is not. It is clearly not a parable, it is straight to the point.
Wow, a lot of downvotes on this one. God’s Word is to instruct us how to feel; our feelings are not to reinterpret God’s Word. It’s about submitting to God’s ORDER. It’s not about ability, it’s about order. Women aren’t to lead the local church for the same reason they aren’t to lead the marriage or the household. There are SO many forms of ministry that God is calling and empowering women for! Stop rebelling against God’s order, submit, and seek His will, and you find longer lasting fulfillment! Let us coach you if you need help. God bless.
So where is the place of a woman in the church who is not married or a mother nor is seeking to be one? Where does God use women? There is no industry where he chooses to use or deal with women ALONE the way he does with men. God does not care about women.
Now, there is a difference between a sermon and a lesson, say on mental illness which the wife suffers from, but not in an authoritative manner for sure
There is no such thing as a Sunday morning "service" in the bible. In the nt. The Saints met together to edify each other not listen to a preaching. Preaching was to be done to the list out side.
If it helps, this is about church assembly. Doesn’t mean you can’t share the gospel or teach elsewhere. For instance…you may share a message on your social media although anyone can watch and learn from it. Also, there’s so much liberty in all-women conferences and gatherings. 🙌🏽😍
@shuffle6260 my wife and I have been struggling with it. We are fairly 'modern' types, and she brought this to my attention when she was leading a bible study on biblical women. It was hard to swallow and still to this day i sometimes fear we have it wrong.
Every Christian should read, "In the Beginning: The Truth behind Genesis". All prohibition against women in leadership stem from the first three chapters of Genesis. The problem is we never teach or look at Genesis 5:2
Paul explained that man and woman are equal in Christ. So now we are stuck with the section where Paul seems to forbid woman to speak, teach etc. Read that section carefully is says: "as it is written according to the law". Well. There you go. The law has been fullfilled. Love defines our actions. It is common knowledge that ancient churchfathers of a "certain denomination" had their hand in selecting biblebooks and adding/changing original text. So follow the Spirit on this one. In Gen it says "God made man, man and woman God made them". Would you not rather have a wonderworking by Holy Spirit transformed woman of God behind the pulpit, who knows what she is talking about: then a mere man with puffed up bible knowledge? For instance. We were in Africa bringing the Gospel. My wife and i split up. Walking through a village preaching, praying for the sick, walking in love. Everybody i prayed for got healed. Everybody my wife prayed for got healed. Male-female "differences" cease to exist in Christ.
It's sad that men insist a woman is incapable of understanding the word of God. I have seen woman believe this and not even pick up the Bible and try. Jesus never said a woman can't witness for him. The woman at the well was one of the first people who witnessed for Jesus. She went told everyone about him. The men that teach this doctrine are gravely mistaken because flesh doesn't enter into heaven, gender prophets no one. We are all souls and Jesus sees the heart.
John Piper is not saying that women are incapable of understanding the word of God. He even says that people who think that got it wrong. Women are not to teach and have authority over men because ha is the order that God created man and woman in, not because women are incapable of teaching or that they arent smart enough.
@@timelessboys978 Ok but then what is Paul implying by bringing up the fact that Eve was deceived but not Adam? There is an implication of spiritual inferiority there and he uses universal principles by bringing up childbirth and applying it to all women.
Jade Lee, There is no implication of inferiority, only the teaching that God created man and woman for different roles within the family and within the church. Biblical Christianity does not hold that women are inferior to men, but that doesn’t mean men and women are exactly the same and were created by God for the exact same roles.
@@timelessboys978 But that doesnt explain why he brings up the fall. That passage has been used to evidence women's spiritual naivety by many people. Plus the only roles women were created for is being wives and mothers. And even in those contexts they dont lead their marriages or families.
Jade Lee, Rewatch Pipers explanation, around the 4-5 minute mark he explains how Satan’s first attack was on God’s order of the relationship between man and woman. Satan went to Eve, the “weaker vessel” as Peter puts it in 1 Peter 3:7, instead of going to Adam, the “Head of the wife” as Paul puts it in Ephesians 5:23. Piper says this is like the enemy leader approaching your lower commander, while you are right there next to him as the higher commander. Watch Pipers explanation again.
Thanks pastor for your explanation. Im a divorcee mother of two beautiful girls , our pastor is a newly born again, and passionate about God , his wife is long in the Lord, from bible school and has a good understanding of scripture but... i gues she is a woman. Once you ask something or share your challenge with the pastor for advice(i ask him cause i don"t have a husband to ask at home),the he has find a Sunday sermon and even call the persons name, repremand in the middle of the sermon, make it a long story, some sunday hecsay it straight if you have come with a bible, im not even gonna open it, it prophesy day no bible reading, every Sunday he comes with something different for congregation to take out money for their healing, if its not a red string its salt, its always something, there so much unfortunately he is a man, he has authority and there is nothing we can(including her wife) do we have to submit as women and i feel as a head of my family i need to protect my self and kids from wrong doctrine of the pastor. I decided to leave that church
I appreciate your story. Thank you. Many people do not think about situations like this or even mention it. They are just like "well women are dumb and men have all the answers so be quiet cause you don't know better." And I'm like...."really? I know many men who ruin their family's finances, strike their wives, never get jobs, and pimp out their wife's body because "he's so immaculately and needs income"
Can someone please draw a very, very clear line between authoritarive and non-authoritative teaching for me and explain exactly where authority lies in teaching? I'm a woman and I want to study the bible in its original languages and then I would like to teach on what the original writings convey that is difficult to translate into Indo-European languages. I would also like to generally teach on interpreting the bible or how two seemingly contradictory ideas in the bible actually are not and tie in well with the whole context of the bible. I would also like to help bring people to the faith by clarifying misconceptions and explaining how some philosophical ideas can be viewed through the lense of the bible. I feel like doing all this it would be difficult for me to not share my opinion on how I think things should be run in the church, and I feel like that is not reqlly authoritative, but combine it with teaching what the bible says and it blurs the line quite a darn bit. I'm just confused and I have a really hard time conceptualizing authority to begin with. I'm confused why Paul says to neither teach nor exercise authority and not just the latter, it only makes sense for me in the context of that time and not today's time. Also, I hate, hate, HATE with a *very passionate hate* saying such as "the bible is very clear on that and you're just in denial" or "the bible is easy to understand but hard to swallow". Listen, whatever issues I have _besides understanding,_ I at least want to be given some respect that I am genuine in how I describe my struggles, as much as I can be, and genuinely seeking to follow God. *DO NOT* come tell me what I understand and don't understand and why I say I don't understand it and what my motivation is and whether I am someone who genuinely seeks to follow God. Don't come at me with a definitive statement about me thay I have the spirit of Jezabel. *EXPLAIN IT TO ME.* If I do have the spirit of Jezabel I believe God is merciful and loving enough to open my eyes to that and lead me out of it. But just throwing that statement at me is not helping me see it and understand it.
I've always taken the whole 'teaching to be done by men' thing as being in a church context. Paul was taught by a man and his wife. Can't recall their names rn. So you could absolutely invest in that and approach it in, say, an academic context. Just pastoral roles in churches, God has designated men. Also you could totally have a say in a church as a woman. If you are a member, there are often members meetings in churches I'm familiar with. Where insights are gathered from members of the church by the eldership.
I don't understand why there is so much energy and time spent on this question. Of course a woman can speak! Not overstepping a man of course. But God can and does speak through women in a church setting. The woman is not the pastor...but she can be a guest speaker. I didn't realize this was deemed a "controversial" issue. When I saw someone start writing about a controversial issue on fb and then posted this video I was expecting something quite different. Women are to submit to men and remain quiet when they are teaching and learn. However, as a guest a woman can speak. Something to think about though on my part.
After reading the book "misreading scripture with western eyes" I realized that not all biblical rules are supposed to be taken literally, as Western readers often do, but as it would've been understood then, and by people of a different culture, as that was the readership. I believe the ordination of women in the Anglican church has done a lot of good, and if someone has a gift, to then suppress that, it's not really doing the ministry any service, certainly not the kingdom of God. There are fewer men in church now and to choose someone without a gift or qualifications, over women who do and have, as I've seen, is to hinder what the spirit is doing, and for what? Will God really say, thank you, You kept the "order" and the words literally, but my kingdom is stunted because you didn't let my daughters who have a gift I gave her, speak. So many opportunities gone. I respect John Piper and agree with him on a lot, but not on this. I also encourage people to read other translations of the Bible, not only the Complementary ESV, because some actually wrote that a woman was a Deacon.
I disagree we cant break Gods word to uphold another part of it saying God we need a leader cause u say so so we will break what u say over hre to obey what u have said here. I will not say that there hasnt been amy good from women teaching but to take human results above the word of God is dangerous inatead we should thank God that inspite of our disobedience he still blessed us and then try to conform to what his word says.
@@boicejr8380 think that's not my point? As a translator I know that original audiences and translator bias can change meaning before the reader reads. And reader bias, what worldview they hold already, also changes interpretation. No good translator translates literally, so why would any good reader just read the words without taking into account context (historical and present). I recommend you read that book which is by renowned pastors based in good theology.
Please dont be offended I honestly just love discussing and debating the Bible its just who I am, and honestly I learn the best this way. However when u say that the translators could translate wrong you are getting into some very dangerous water cause u are not really question modern interpretation of the Bible but rather u are questioning the integrity of God's word as it is. If God is omnipotent then mans translation will not discredit his word in the slightest. It was like when he says to peter in Matthew 16: 18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell will not prevail. So if we say that mabye this verse that says women cant pastor is or could be mistranslated we fall into a pit where we can question everything in the Bible and simply just cherry pick what suits us please don't think this is me just getting on u I just want to see if this is where your stance is if not please correct me. Also read 1 Corinthians 12:12-31 Just because we have different functions does not mean we are unequal or dispensable. Even as what humans would perceive as the smallest lowly job Scripture teaches that it is just as important as the greatest teacher or missionary. I hope you have a good day or night.
@@boicejr8380 this is not a balance debate and you're not informed. Of course we need to rely on the holy spirit to interpret and there is an element of faith, but history and language changes throughout time. Middle Eastern audiences will interpret a passage different from you. I use the NET Bible with has translator notes so the translation process is transparent. Even Bible scholars know the forces behind different versions of the English Bible, so they have all the information to interpret the Bible correctly. It helps you to understand the original author s intent. I'm not going to persuade you, because it's not easy to do the work so people just take things at face value. Good luck with that!
@@David-_-_- Men are built to lead under any social or environmental condition. Jesus knew better. The best leaders prepare disciples specially for the worst times and not only for the good ones.
@@David-_-_- I don't take people, that call themselves Christians but don't follow the rules of the Bible, seriously. The Bible have phases. All of them are consistent on how women should behave. No man should come and try to explain what is evident in the Bible.
@@David-_-_- I no longer attend to churches. Because the only thing that you can guard from corruption is your spirit. Churches no longer defend The Bible.
You are part of the reason there are so many single Christian sisters. I hope you have a good explanation for why many will never hold children of their own. Why the church failed and is failing to raise Christian men and how female pastors only add to the toxic environment.
Jade Lee Female pastors are toxic to Christian males. But that's exactly what the progressives want. That's exactly what BLM wants according to their website, to disrupt the nuclear family. Congrats, you're fighting against Jesus and his church.
@@lkae4 First of all, your reactive emotional jabs and assumptions are very reminiscent of BLM and SJW extremists who try to guilt trip people into following their cause. Secondly, there is not a scriptural basis to prohibit women from preaching or teaching. A thorough study of the original Greek will show this as well as looking into the cultural milieu of the verses used to claim this. You cannot take an ancient book set in a particular time and that was not even written in English and then apply a modern lens onto its interpretation. You will make mistakes.
You must look at the context of the particular situation Paul is addressing. Did women have leadership over men in their pagan temples ? In Paul’s time women were not educated. In our times women are well educated and know the scriptures. Paul was not giving rules and commands, but rather advice. If we make people conform to social traditions, then we might as well be Pharisees. Each congregation should choose their leaders on their abilities and gifts, as the sprit leads. Jesus continues to break down barriers and prejudices now ,just as he did in his ministry. He reinterpreted the Old Testament by fulfilling it and revealing God’s true heart, which was buried in cultural rules and regulations. Let’s not make the same mistake and bury Jesus in our dogmas.
My question Is, if Jesús was breaking prejudiced, why were His 12 disciples only men? Of course im not saying women are less capable, but i believe Jesús also knew the importance of this order, Lets not forget that he prayed to the father before chosing His disciples. Like i said , that doesnt mean that women didnt have a special place in Gods heart, i mean , when he Rose from His tomb he showed himself to women first. In our human logic if he showed himself to women in His resurection it would have been More logical that he "should" have chosen those women to be part of the disciples to testify of His resurection, but he didnt. Sorry for my bad writing, english Is not my native language😅
This teaching will keep many people, especially women from knowing Christ. Rules and laws become a stumbling block. I want to focus on the gospel. Are you saying my salvation depends on getting this right?
@@rhondarockhound622 Christ reminded his Apostles that it wasn't about Position. But about Serving. Humility of Heart is what God honors. If woman or men allow themselves to be offended solely based on the fact that they can't preach, pastor etc. There's a heart issue. And this Conviction alone should hold us back to first examine our hearts before we dare preach unto others. And if no man wants to stand in the gap. By all means Let the Lord rise up Woman who will such as Esther's.. As the psalmist put it, Great peace have they that Love your Law and nothing shall offend them. That's the issue with the church today. Many become offended because of Doctrinal differences. And so they allow their hearts to be polluted , focusing rathor on position and a "name" for ourselves to be "noticed" and we lose focus on the Humility that Christ Stressed to His apostles. I agree I definitely interpret Paul's instructions to Timothy based on the culture that was present at that time. Woman worshipped a false dietys named Diana. And even now many woman still today are worshipping this false dietys teaching they are Superior to men especially here in the west. Humility is What God honors, not position.
Servant of Christ you have a good point. However I’ve been going to church all my life and depending on men to teach me. Now with access to the internet I’ve discovered that I have not been taught how to to read scripture, defend my faith or share the gospel. In church we hear all the beautiful scriptures, but if we actually read all of the Bible it’s not an easy read. There is so much hidden meaning behind the ancient context and it’s violence - I just can’t accept as God’s will. Unfortunately When my children went to college, they weren’t prepared to defend their faith. And when they saw mean spirited Christians they decided christianity is a big farce. If and when God calls me to speak or teach I will do it ! Even if a man tells me to sit down and shut up. My church is dwindling. Where have all the young people gone?
@@rhondarockhound622 I'll be praying for you. And His church he has entrusted in your care. Remain Humble. And continue to seek Him and His perfect will for your Life. After all Mary Magdalene, The Samaritan woman, Esther and many more woman of God couldn't hold back because they encountered Christ. Why should you hold back? I've met Christians who are very contentuous but God is The Judge. Don't you ever stop Preaching Christ and what he did for you! The matter of woman preachers is only a temporary matter. But a woman who fears the Lord is and Eternal Blessing. I'm praying for you even now Rhonda. God bless you and your house
from my understanding, many women HAVE a problem with ms. moore...one asks if God called OR did moore call herself? i don't personally care for her, just because i don't care for her teaching style.. but i think there are so many variables that in the end, who knows?i respect several pastors and many disagree on whether a woman can teach or not or pastor.. i personally believe women shouldn't..
Many men are called to preach. They submit to the authority of God and become obedient by preaching. If a woman wants to preach disobediently, then what's the point? Men and women are alike in this: Be obedient to God.
Somehow I don’t think “teaching” establishes final “authority” over anyone let alone men. Rather, ones ability to teach demonstrates ones ability to potentially influence, whether good or bad. Any man that has been married for a length of time can testify how his wife does influence not just the children but also himself. The responsibility rest not solely on the “influencer” but on those who are potentially influenced. However, one could argue against that when it comes to children being influenced. They for a time have no choice to logically process what is being taught, but rather, they naturally take in what they’re exposed to. With that said, yes the “man” (husband /father) is the final resting place for ultimate responsibility as seen in genesis 3. What is being taught to his wife, his children as well as what is he taking in that is potentially influencing his and his family’s identity. I think at the end of the day leadership is not as much of an authority as much as it is a “responsibility”. Leadership that is in a position of authority is ultimately held responsible for lessons, decisions and choices that effect that sphere they are responsible too.
Amp version- psalm 68:11 The Lord gives the word (of power); the women who bear and publish (preach) the good news are a great host. God has called women to preach the Gospel
What Paul is talking about is women not preaching in an authoritative position over men. Women can share the gospel with anyone, just not in an authoritative position of teaching men. Pretty simple.
This is a tough one for the feminist of today. Then again being a woman of God is a tough one for women today. A woman of God is submissive, meek, gentle, quiet, modest. Most women of today, especially in Babylon America think this is weakness and strive and desire to be the opposite. Just watch the comments from the women and see for yourself. And the men are becoming like women. Most of you in the comment section are fake Christians. You don’t love the Word you love yourself. You have created a Jesus made in your image with attributes after your own wicked heart. Scariest words in the Bible is when you will be standing before Him claiming to have known Him and loved Him and He will say “away from me you who practice lawlessness, I never knew you.”
I received this differently than I had before. The fact that woman are permitted from preaching shows not only grace but favor. I didn’t realize it until this time. I had always looked at it as strictness before
Sorry that I missed your initial response, Jade. Luckily someone else shared in your curiosity! Hi Paige! It’s nice to revisit this moment. It’s been a long time since I heard Piper speak. He was really a big part of my life in this season of my life. Anyways, here is my response to your question: Men and women were made “differently,” not “hierarchically” as society has often perceived and portrayed this difference. In fact, society always takes difference hierarchically, when that is not why difference or diversity exists-race and racism being the greatest example. White and black ARE different, but neither is superior. Each race is gloriously made because both races are eligible to have faith in Jesus Christ and enter the Promise of God. In regard to ministry, as Piper explains, women not becoming pastors is not a matter of competence; women were made in their own unique, god-given way, not in order to form a hierarchy but by the favor of God. This uniqueness precedes the Fall. Satan took advantage of this uniqueness in the Garden seeing that Adam was already starting to fail in his position as head. Like with the body, people often glorify the major parts, not realizing that the lesser parts are just as important. They are not “lesser” just as women are not lesser; they are merely different and serve different functions, but each function has its own glory, not hierarchically but uniquely and equally favored by God. Random fact: ever heard the phrase-“I feel it in my gut?” That phrase came from people’s belief that the heart was in the stomach. Science emerged and showed us that the heart is in our chests. Does this make the stomach less important for the body? No... the stomach is still glorious in its own way just as the heart is glorious in its own way. Both were made by God with favor.. who can deny that women are absolutely glorious! More glorious than men in so many ways, but still this is not meant to be perceived hierarchically like some branches of feminism view this or how general chauvinism views it... anyways, I hope I answered your question, and I hope it touches on the deeper questions you might be asking yourself. I pray that you receive the love that God is abundantly pouring out to you today. Cheers!
@@astheskylarksings Ok . . . But may I ask in which areas women are called by God that are exclusive to them the way God calls men exclusively for leadership and authority? Because none come to mind. Most people say childbirth but what about infertile women? Not to mention that without men, pregnancy is impossible.
Jade Lee Not “okay...” actually. We both understand what “okay” means in the context you used it. It means whatever I say or however I answer, if it does not fit your agenda, it will not appease you. Not “okay....” You should have typed “amen.” To be a woman is a gift just as to be a man. All that is associated with being a man or a woman comes with the gift. That’s “amen,” not “ok...” Women are called to service and they excel at it exponentially better than men. Service IS leadership, more than you realize I guess based on your response. Service is equally important to ministry, and in some regards, more important. Yup, some women are infertile or don’t want babies. Some men are impotent or don’t want babies. Some men want to be in ministry, but most don’t. That is not about difference as much as it is simply about personal choice, calling, and/or the hand that a person is dealt. What are men blocked from? Virtually nothing, but this doesn’t make it “unfair.” They are parts of being a woman than men can never experience. That doesn’t make women more privileged either. Each is blessed in their own ways.
My church has no women Elders, no female pastors, but they do have many (maybe more than 50%) women teaching Adult Bible classes where both men and women attend. I always wondered about this. I myself, female, taught a mixed Bible class for ten years. We have a ton of Bible classes ( large church) and perhaps more women are available and interested than men. Our senior pastor’s wife (she is now deceased) taught several times each weekend. When I asked about it, the answer was “all Bible class teachers are under the authority of the senior pastor.”
One thing that should be noted here that John Piper didn't touch on like he should have was that the eve was deceived and Adam was NOT. If you read Genesis 3 you will see the devil ask eve a logical question and eve gave a logical answer that fruit will cause them to DIE which is catastrophically bad and she understood that. Now the devil set her up with logic then turned and enticed Eve through emotions and the bible said that Eve saw the fruit as GOOD! It uses words that derive from emotions pleasant to the eye...tree to be desired.
Romans 10:9-10 (KJV) 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Chris Hall Acts 21 8 Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. 9 He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied. Paul stays in the house of 4 women who prophesied... I don't know who else they could have been prophesing to. A plain reading of the text implies Paul and his companions. The only other possible options I can think of is that you don't think prophecy is authoritative.
There is often a confusion between big P prophecy and little P prophecying but even then, the apostle Paul ignored the prophetic warning not to go to Rome.
Light? We are told that the daughters prophesied. We are not told when they prophesied. We're told that Philip was an evangelist... does that mean that he preached the gospel to Paul when he came? Also, the only recorded prophecy from the passage came from Agabus, not the women. Finally, there is no command given against going to Jerusalem, only a prediction of what will happen when Paul arrives there.
We live in a strange time where women hate the role the Bible assigns to them. I always loved the submission verses, but that's perhaps because I had a strict dominant father and a more submissive mother. It just feels natural and fits like a glove. My husband also loves the male role in the Bible, even though he's not a believer. Actually our personalities are such that I take charge and he goes with the flow, but we both want to reverse that unpleasant dynamic and when we manage it, it feels wonderful!
It's because women have been hurt by this verse. Quite a few men use this verses to dominate and control. Believe me if I heard this us MY, HOUSE, MY CASTLE, MY, MY, MY ,MY way , I have to have my way. once I heard it a billion times. This has been used to control and hurt and put down. Count yourself one if the lucky ones who wasnt damaged by misinformation. For example my ex. Comes in from a strip club. left all the responsibility of the children to me after working all day with a migraine. Well he comes in broke around 3 or 4 in the morning demanding I have sex with him..... because he is the man and he is my authority and I cant say no. ( yes the majority have been taught to act like that) I thought he was a hood man, he knew my stance on God and drinking. Dated him for 4 years, everybody LOVED him, he was nice polite and treated me well. The day I married him he laughed and told me he drank, went to strip clubs etc .... and you dont believe in divorce. He said . He put me through hell then divorced me. Tes there are good men ,there are good women but submission means EXTREME vulnerability , we also live in a world where the string hurts the weak, and the ones in authority looks at their wives as less. Yeah you are one of the rare lucky ones.
If Paul meant that ALL women were to be kept quiet in church and not just a certain group of people then why would he accept that 1. Pricsilla taught Apollos 2. Pheobe was sent by Paul to deliver the letter Romans to the church in Rome, to deliver a letter one would read it publically to a mix gender group and teach from it so the church could understand. 3. Why is 8/10 times Priscilla and Aquilla mentioned its Priscilla first but the only 2 times the married team is mentioned its Aquilla then Priscilla because Aquilla was the head of his home but Priscilla was the head of their ministry. Finally 4. The problem with the verse as well as the Elder Deacon qualifications verses is that they are not read in cultural contex with proper hermanuetics. If one did read these verse the way the first century church would have, then they would see/understand that what Paul was writing was a practice for a select group of people (the church in Ephesus) vs. a principle for the whole church to follow. One could argue that the same prohibitions against braided hair and pearls should be avoided as well since in the same breath Paul states women in that church are not permitted to teach ir usurp authority over a man (typically their husband) because Adam was formed first and then Eve the man is the head of his wife. Paul's words to the church of Ephesus and Corinth was to address the New Woman movement where aristocratic women were trying to dominate men in their homes. Community and in the church. Paul is addressing this issue with a practice to be applied to the people, but he does not hold to that Principle with Priscilla, Junia, Pheobe and other female fellow church servants. I believe the Holy Spirit is poured out on all flesh in the church age and just like Galatians states there is no male female, slave or free for we are one in Christ Jesus. We are equal by the pouring out of The Holy Spirit upon us. I am within Biblical Rights to preach/teach and be a Pastor over amd with men, because we're equal servants in the kingdom with different spiritual giftings 1 Corinthians 12.
For anyone who is a feminist advocate or anyone who claims that God said women are to be preaching in the church: The following scriptures easily outweigh any of your scriptures which you cherry pick, scripture mine, and/or manipulate into backing up your personal and modern-day-religion's desires for what you want God to have said, instead of being diligent to read, study, and follow the complete Word of God which makes perfectly clear for how God said there is to be an order to leadership, preaching, etc. So if God intended women to preach in the church, then why did God only give the specific qualifications that men are to have for the positions in the church and never gave the qualifications for what women are to have if they were to take the positions in the church? These are the specific scriptures down below that directly pertain to the qualifications necessary for filling the position in a church: Titus 1:4-6 , 1 Timothy 3:10-13 , and 1 Timothy 3:1-5 1 Corinthians 11:1-3 & 8-9 1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. 2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you. 3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. 8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. _____________________________________________________________________________________________ 1 Timothy 2: 11-14 11 Women should learn quietly and submissively. 12 I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly. 13 For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived by Satan. The woman was deceived, and sin was the result. ______________________________________________________________________________________________ 1 Corinthians 14:34-40 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. 36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. 39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 40 Let all things be done decently and in order. _______________________________________________________________________________________________ Titus 2: 1-5 1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine: 2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience. 3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. ________________________________________________________________________________________________ Ephesians 5:22-24 22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. _______________________________________________________________________________________________ 1 Peter 3:5-7 5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: 6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. 7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered. ________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1 Timothy 3:1-5 BISHOPS 1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) ________________________________________________________________________________________________ 1 Timothy 3:10-13 DEACONS 10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless. 11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things. 12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. 13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. ________________________________________________________________________________________________ Titus 1:4-6 ELDERS 4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. 5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: 6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
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"The Bibles not hard to understand. It's just hard to swallow" - Steve Lawson
So true
Amen. Also, source please ? Thanks
IT'S NOT HARD TO UNDERSTAND, IT'S JUST HARD TO FOLLOW!!!
It's 2000 year old terminology that has been editted and translated multiple times. There is no point in trying to understand it. It's a jumbled period piece of what people were like at the time. Exodus 21 and all that horrible stuff that is no more thankfully.
Chantal Lively Wow. This hit me HARD.
Despite the fact that I'm a woman, the Bible is clear that women should not preach over men. Logically, sure, it doesn't make sense to the world and even my mind that women cannot teach, but the Bible is the ultimate authority. Not mankind's own logic.
Follow Jesus words or the words of Paul the hypocrite
@@christianblessedstoriesros5333 If you think that, then you've got problems and holes in your Theology/Christology. Paul is an Apostle of Jesus Christ and charged by Him. Paul's Apostleship given by the Lord is nothing to be discarded. All Scripture is breathed out by God (2 Timothy 3:16).
My People perish for lack of knowledge
@Michelle Eriksen I give you props for speaking truth. Amen! Not a lot women can do that nowadays. 👍🏼
@@marcaskew7125 women should remain quiet in the church. Can they spread the gospel on the streets?
I am saved. My husband, please pray 🙏 for his salvation, is not saved. It is my duty to preach to our children of the true God the Creator, and of Jesus Christ his Son our savior.. I try to hold Bible study nighty with the kids reading the Bible and saying prayers.
"Teaching your children", and "preaching to a congregation" is two different things. Of course you should teach your children.
Yes you can teach your children, there is nothing wrong with that. You are doing the right thing if you do.
6550m 5 11566555t is a
Great job mama! This refers to preaching to both men and women in church. In your home, you are doing a great job! Praying for your husband's salvation.
Why are you married to someone who’s not saved? God says not to marry people who are unequally yoked. So you’re already in rebellion of God’s Word. Of course you should teach your children since your husband is an unbeliever, but that doesn’t qualify you to be the pastor of a church or exercise authority over men in a church setting.
Pastor John is so gracious. He took 10 minutes to say NO
It's a cultural saying to the Jewish woman at that time " it's not a law that's binding to the whole world .. also remember the verse that says .. slaves be obedient to your masters Ephesians 6:5 .. ?
So does that mean it's alright to have slaves like in the 1800s .. no of course not .. he's speaking to the people at that time .. we try to understand some scriptures with a western world thinking of today's standards of man .. when you don't understand cultural of the Jews .. you can go into misunderstandings of scripture .. the only way that a western world thinking person who can have insite to the scriptures is by the spirit of God .. woman can have the same anointing as a man to preach to teach .. 😲 or is it a SIN .. for a woman to preach or to teach or to be a pastor ..?
There were some things that were happening in the early churches now that the Jews had this freedom in Christ .. so Paul had to address the issues the problem .. 👍
Yeah I understood that now
@@stevenlee5562 so do you mean “ Adam was created first and not eve” applies at that time only and not now.
“Adam was created first and not eve” applies universally, at all times , everywhere
'Pastor' John and the Bible are 2 different entities. This titled pastor does not know the scriptures.
Please find the word 'pastor' in the new testament covenant and say where reference is made to male or female, nowhere is such written.
Also where was anyone addressed by the title of Pastor, churches were households. The unbelieving male or husband cannot head the household of God, though he is head of his own natural household. Not every believer, male or female, gets married, they may also get widow or widower. There were both elder women and elder men in the church.
There is Lydia with a believing household in the book of Acts 16:14-40; There is also 'the elect lady and her children' etc
SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES says Jesus, Where has he said, "listen to men to understand?
Yes, but there are people who don't understand the verse very well, and that's why he have to explain it in detail.
The woman can’t preach,but she can teach.Who can she teach?She can teach the young girls how to become women and carry themselves according to the word of God.
False.
@@Contrarian-v7p TRUE! Read Titus 2:3-5
As a woman who seeks to be more like Christ I agree with all that was said in this episode. We recently moved from Arizona where we attended a Sothern Baptist church to Loughborough Leicestershire, England, which meant we had to find a new church to be members of. It was hard due to the fact that churches are allowing women to preach under the authority of the elders or they appoint a woman outright to be the lead elder or pastor/preacher of their churches. It is crazy to me because Gods word is so clear on this issue. Thank you for addressing this issue...problem that is rampant these days.
This episode is far from scripture. Before Paul spoke, God spoke, his Son spoke. Is Paul in opposition to God and his Son? No! Is it not that you Anti-God anti-women people seek to use scripture to justify your own prejudice, hate and jealousy. Christ came to restore man (male and female) to original status of equal dominion. Only the regenerated born-again man can understand the restoration, not the unregenerated ungodly who remains in his sin but profess to know God, and wants to explain things of the Spirit of God. Which he cannot understand.
1CORINTHIANS 2:14.
Christianity is an ungodly religion of Rome, with many having unscriptual philosophies and theories to suit their personal agendas, but they are not the Almighty Creator.
@@fransikajohn9005 The Bible is clear and is never self contradictory. It is God's Word and can not contradict itself. Therefore what you are trying to express falls outside the intention of the passage you are quoting. Try Numbers 23:19 or I Cor 14:33.
@@fransikajohn9005 Your Theology will not withstand Biblical Scholastic Peer review.
That's because men have become weak and rather be fishing then in a church pew or behind a pulpit on Sunday morning. Godly men are falling to the wayside and refusing to lead their home less a church as God intended.
@@fransikajohn9005 Christianity isn't Roman oriented at all Catholicism maybe
I love this because I love truth. Thankful for your obedience in keeping God’s word pure.
It's not truth.
jmshistorycorner.wordpress.com/2020/04/24/bring-on-women-pastors/
To understand these verses, we must under- stand the situation in which Paul and Timothy worked. In first-century Jewish culture, women were not allowed to study. When Paul said that women should "learn qui- etly and submissively." he was offering them an amaz- ing new opportunity to learn God's Word. That they were to listen and learn quietly and submissivelys referred to an attitude of quietness and composure (not total silence). In addition, Paul himself acknowledges that women publicly prayed and prophesied (1 Corinthi- ans 11:5). Apparently, however, the women in the msl Ephesian church were abusing their newly acquired Christian freedom. Because these women were new10 converts, they did not yet have the necessary experi-m ence, knowledge, or Christian maturity to teach thoses who already had extensive scriptural education.
2:12 Some interpret this passage to mean that wormen should never teach in the assembled church; however, commentators point out that Paul did not forbid women from ever teaching. Paul's commended co- worker, Priscilia, taught Apolos. the great preacher (Acts 18.24-26). Paul frequently mentioned other women who held positions of responsibility in the church, Phoebe worked in the church (Romans 16:1). Mary. Tryphena, Tryphosa and Persis were the Lord's workers (Romans 16:6, 12), as were Euodia and Syntyche (Philippians 4:2). Paul vwas very likely pro- hibiting the Ephesian women, not all women, from teaching (see the note on 2:9-15). Paul did not want the Ephesian women to teach because they didn't yet have enough knowledge or experience. The Ephesian church had a particular prob- lem with false teachers. Evidently the women were especially susceptible to the false teachings (2 Timothy 3:1-9) because they did not yet have enough biblical knowledge to discern the truth. In addition, some of the women were apparently flaunting their newfound Christian freedom by wearing inappropriate clothing (2.9). Paul was telling Timothy not to put anyone (in this case, women) into position of leadership whool was not yet mature in the faith (see 3:6; 5:22). The same principle applies to churches today (see the note on 3:6). 2:13, 14 In previous letters Paul had discussed male/ female roles in marriage (Ephesians 5:21-33; Colos- sians 3:18, 19). Here he talks about male/female roles within the church. Some scholars see these verses about Adam and Eve as an illustration of what was hap- pening in the Ephesian church. Just as Eve had been deceived in the Garden of Eden, so the women in the church were being deceived by false teachers. And just as Adam was the first human created by God, so the men in the church in Ephesus should be the first to speak and teach, because they had more training. This view, then, stresses that Paul's teaching here is not universal but applies to churches with similar prob- lems. Other scholars, however, contend that the roles Paul points out are God's design for his created order-God established these roles to maintain har- mony in both the family and the church. 2:14 Paul is not excusing Adam for his part in the Fall (Genesis 3:6, 7, 17-19). On the contrary, in his letter women to the Romans Paul places the primary humanity's sinful nature on Adam (Romans 5:12-21).
Obedience is a weakness.
@@David-_-_- Paul‘s words in Scripture hold the same weight and authority as Jesus’s. And when he is expressing an opinion rather than a command, he is sure to clarify that. Also, there are certain things that Jesus did not speak on, which is why Paul addresses them throughout his writings. One clear example is Paul’s writings on divorce. He addressed certain points that Jesus did not in his ministry because it never came up.
@@David-_-_- well I believe in the sovereignty of God and I believe that “All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,” (2 Timothy 3:16). Which means I believe in the 100% infallibility and inerrancy of Scripture. How evil would God be to allow the Bible to contain commands that contradict His own heart? He would not be sovereign if you say He could not control what was put into His Word, and He would not be kind of allowed false information to be spread to millions of people because He knows it would 1. Confuse many people and cause them to stumble and 2. Directly contradict His own heart on those matters. To say that any part of Scripture is not just as much the Word of God as any other is to deny God’s true character. Furthermore, to disbelieve or disobey any word of Scripture is to disobey God. God cannot lie or speak falsely, so how could the Bible, if all of it is breathed out by God, contain any lie or hint of untruth? Jesus says in John 17:17 while praying to the Father, “Sanctify them in the truth; your word is TRUTH.” He does not say God’s word is true, as if it has a higher standard to conform to, but rather that the Bible itself IS the highest standard of truth that God has given us. Truth is what God says, and we have what He says, accurately but not exhaustively, in the Bible.
In regards to churches shying away from Paul’s teaching and watering it down, it sounds like those are churches who do not know how to rightly handle the Word of God. In an attempt to be culturally relevant or whatever else the motivation is, they brush over or misinterpret God’s Word and its authority, which says to me if they do that in one area they are likely doing so in multiple areas. Regardless, every church I have been a member of the past few years, including the one I am currently involved in, has affirmed and taught that a woman shall not hold a position of authority in a church as outlined by the role of and elder. She may serve in the church and lead other women, but the role of a teaching pastor is not to be held by a woman, thus says the Lord through his apostle Paul.
“Let a woman learn quietly with all submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.”
1 Timothy 2:11-12
I do not see in the verse that a woman cannot ask questions or learn or study or teach other women. Simply that she may not exercise authority over a man. Remain quiet when it comes to a pulpit position. A woman can share her testimony to the whole church… she is not teaching but rather sharing what God has done in her life. A woman can sing on the worship team and lead beautifully with her God-given talent. But a woman cannot teach the Word of God because in doing so she contradicts the Word of God which clearly states that she must not hold that position. In 2 Timothy 2, we see that included in the qualifications to be an overseer (or elder), he must be “the husband of one wife…” and by that very definition, a woman cannot be the husband of one wife. Therefore a woman cannot exercise the role of elder.
I honestly have to say that unless you agree on the authority Scripture as being straight from the heart of God, being entirely true as he is true, there is really nothing more to discuss. And if you do agree on those points, then the truth of this teaching, as hard as it can be to swallow, should be revealed to you. And that’s really all I have to say about it.
No. Men don't have authority to override the bible.
Then more should understand it.
Dan Sutton and many think all scripture is about salvation. The epistles were written to some certain churches. We learn from them as we did the law.
Dan Sutton if you think me believing in woman being pastors is a sin. You are not getting full understanding of God’s Grace. This is not a salvation issue. This was a cultural issue. Period. Are you bided by the law with your thinking?
Dan Sutton go ahead and live by the law. And be judged on it. I choose Jesus and the gift of grace. Me watching a woman preach is a sin in your mind. And you condemn me for it. Using the Lords name in vain by doing so.
Dan Sutton wow. You do not know me. I ask you a question you refuse to answer. And judge another brother by trying to condemn me. Really? Do you really have the right to condemn me. Using the Lords name in vain by doing so. I know scripture very well. I do not need this legalistic Westbrook Baptist Church stuff.
I am a woman who at the beginning hated and appalled this teaching and found it demeaning and honestly speaking i hated Paul the servant of God because i thought he was sexist. But over time i got this understanding that this is the order that pleases God just like having a man as head of the family, Christ as head of the church or very simply like we have a President as the Head of a State, then the Cabinet and other branches of the government system: the President knows that his government can run best under certain designation of duties, rule and regulations : all have different roles to play and cannot be intermixed for smooth operation. But above all these, as a woman know that God has favored you and wants you to serve Him through this(OBEDIENCE), In submitting to this you are actually serving God , what is more beautiful than that. It is more of a power struggle for us women to want and actually fight for what is not supposed to be ours that was the first mistake we made in the garden of Eden lets break the curse and not listen to the devil and be beguiled again. I love serving God and its beautiful to do so and i find fulfillment in doing so. Lets listen to our Love (Yahushua ) who truly loves us and wants to lead us to eternal liberty. Love you my Beloved Sisters in Christ May His Peace richly be with you
Who is Yahushua??? I don't serve him. I serve Yeshua - Jesus
The problem is, you think Christ's church is in a building. Tell me something, if a woman reads the Bible, is it only true if your husband says it is? Anyone who has the Holy Spirit is ordered to teach. People misinterpret scriptures. You need the Holy Spirit and it's not given to us by a man. It's given to us through Jesus. 99.9% of men preaching at churches now days are deceived. Read your bible and don't listen to anyone but God. Jesus talked to woman. When a woman asked Jesus for something He gave it to her. Jesus answered her. Are you telling me that men are better than Jesus and a woman can't speak in church. This guy is full of it. God gave us all souls. The maturity level of the spirit, you don't see male or female. You see a soul. Don't let anyone tell you what the bible says. You read and ask God. Jesus says let he who wants to be chief among you be the servant. A servant is not male or female. Do you see preachers now days serve at potlucks. Do you see them cleaning toilettes. The one cleaning the toilets is the chief among them. He who humbles himself will be exalted. Sweet heart God gave you a soul. They have a soul. Christ rent the veil. There are no more buildings/churches. The human body is the church. These false teachers emphasize their own books not God's. When you know who you are in the Lord, you will not tolerate doctrines like this. Bless you sister.
The bible says nothing about women not being allowed to preach!!!!
Alexy your comments are so unbiblical and sound so ignorant and religious. You sound like a self righteous, high minded pharisee!!
The book of Luke speaks of Anna, a WOMAN, who preached at the temple and who served God night and day. And she was certainly not condemned for it:
*Luke 2 (KJV)*
_36 And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity;_
_37 And she was a widow of about fourscore and four years, which departed not from the temple, but served God with fastings and prayers night and day._
_38 And she coming in that instant gave thanks likewise unto the Lord, and spake of him to all them that looked for redemption in Jerusalem._
And you think simply being obedient and doing nothing is serving God?
Why don't you start telling everyone about Jesus? Why don't you start witnessing for Jesus?
A lazy Christian is a dead Christian.
If you don't bear good fruit then you will be cut down.
Just think of all the lives that you could have lead to the Lord if you had only spoken of Him!!!
Val O'Brien That’s like saying that even though Christ is the head of the church, the church is equal to Christ (50/50 marriage:wrong)
God chose the hierarchy. Don’t fight it. God doesn’t copy the way the governments of this world run.
@@truthkeeper7816
before I get into the scriptures I will say this.
I just turned 60 on this 5th of Jan 2019
I know that there are multiple millions of women who are not only smarter but some are way smarter than I am, in 7th grade, I got my first taste of Algebra and I failed it badly.
the higher math was very hard for me, even converting fractions to decimals and vice versa.
there are women who are physicists, chemists, Doctors, lawyers, electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, name the profession and women are just as smart and capable as men, women who hold the same credentials as men should be paid the same as men.
there are women who are physically stronger than me, I have RA really bad so my strength is nowhere near what it used to be.
God is the one who set the bounds in the Church.
Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1Co 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Ti 2:9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
1Ti 2:10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
1Ti 2:11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1Ti 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1Ti 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1Ti 3:3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
1Ti 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
1Ti 3:5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)
1Ti 3:6 Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.
1Ti 3:7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
1Ti 3:8 Likewise must the deacons be grave, not doubletongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre;
1Ti 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.
1Ti 3:10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
1Ti 3:11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
1Ti 3:12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
1Ti 3:13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus.
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
Tit 1:3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
Tit 1:4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
Tit 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
Tit 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
Tit 1:7 For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
Tit 1:8 But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
Tit 1:9 Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
the qualification of the Bishop (pastor/preacher) and the Deacon are to be the Husband of one wife.
there is no way that a woman can be the husband of one wife. not to mention the fact that the Commandments of the Lord specify that women are to be in SILENCE in the Church.
go back and read 1 Sam 15:1-26 Saul the King of Israel is rejected from being King because he rejected the Word of the Lord
1Sa 15:23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
1Sa 15:26 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath rejected thee from being king over Israel.
this is a lesson for us even today, that if we reject the Word of God we too will be rejected.
those women who are preaching, teaching and pastoring churches with men in them are rejecting the Word of God to do their will in His Name.
How serious is God concerning His Word?
Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name.
Deu 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
Deu 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
Deu 17:11 According to the sentence of the law which they shall teach thee, and according to the judgment which they shall tell thee, thou shalt do: thou shalt not decline from the sentence which they shall shew thee, to the right hand, nor to the left.
Ezr 6:11 Also I have made a decree, that whosoever shall alter this word, let timber be pulled down from his house, and being set up, let him be hanged thereon; and let his house be made a dunghill for this.
Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Jer 23:36 And the burden of the LORD shall ye mention no more: for every man's word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of the LORD of hosts our God.
Jer 26:2 Thus saith the LORD; Stand in the court of the LORD'S house, and speak unto all the cities of Judah, which come to worship in the LORD'S house, all the words that I command thee to speak unto them; diminish not a word:
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshiped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
2Co 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
2Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other Scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
God does not like it when His Word is added too, Diminished aught from or changed in any way.
if you reject the Word of God then you too will be rejected.
"The Devil deceived Adam and Eve to switch places"... The Spirit in my belly yelled "AMEN!!" When I heard that part :)
Yes, and society has played the price ever since. That is where the attack on masculinity has come from - Satan because he knows that a society of "feminine" men cannot lead their households or future generations as God has commanded.
The bible says the woman was deceived Adam wasn't he knew better and should have told eve no were not eating that fruit
Another chauvinistic quotation! Men and women are different. In the first English case about sex change, the Judge decided that people can change their sex, but not their gender. The woman in that case has since been awarded an MBE. I believe that gender exists only in our Universe, not in Heaven. God has no gender, but we have no pronoun for that, so we use "He." About a Jew who claimed to have no gender, Wikipedia used "They."
@@misspriss2482 Masculine men have taken over, but they're the ungodly sort, yet so many women lust after them. Satan doesn't necessarily want to take masculinity away. He wants to take away godly masculinity away. Andrew Tate, for instance, is a man women lust after, despite him being an unrepentant fornicator. He's basically the embodiment of the very things that caused feminism to rise and weaken families even futher.
This is an excellent & thorough (NOT exhaustive, but...thorough) answer to this issue. The problem with people deciding opposite of this is their approach to the issue & texts involved (include 1Cor. 14:34-40, & Titus 2:3-5) is to not handle these scriptures exegetically....but, eisegetically! The way that Pastor John went backwards to explain the situation works in these other passages as well. In the 1st Corinthians passage...Paul indicates in v.38 that if a man is determined to be ignorant...let him be so. WHY? In v.37, Paul had just said that if any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual...let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you ARE THE COMMANDMENTS OF THE LORD ! NOW....verse 38 makes sense, because if they will still have contention concerning this matter...let them be ignorant...you can't reason with them on it, because they see themselves as more authoritative than the LORD. Likewise....in Titus...what/who/where & why.... were the AGED women encouraged to teach? V.3 "...teachers of good things; teaching YOUNG women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, keepers of the home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the Word of God be not blasphemed." Now, go back through that passage and see if you can answer the questions of WHAT was to be taught...to WHO...WHERE was it to be taught...and WHY were these things to be taught? These were teachings that were so that God's word would not be blasphemed.
The older women to teach the the young women doesn't mean in the church but at their homes or they can do seminars.
scriture is clear as the day . women shuold not preach but sit quietly this need no explanation you either take it or leaveit
It requires so much explanation, as Paul also says women should “prophesy” with their head covered… this happens in a public setting of combined congregation and holds a level of authority and teaching with men present and Paul is affirming women in this. Clearly, this passage cannot simply mean “women be completely quiet”.
The question should read, " Will God also approve of women preachers, when the congregationalelders approve them?" The simple, biblical answer, is NO! Elders who approve of such a policy aren't sufficiently well-grounded in Scripture to qualify as elders.
Are female preachers an abomination to God?
@@ms.playboyinternational393 The word " abomination" may be too strong a descriptive, " For who hath known the mind of God?" (Rom. 11:34a). The clear teaching of the Apostle Paul who received revelational instructions from The Almighty is that women are to learn in silence (1 Tim. 2:11,12) and that "...if a man desire the office of a bishop (elder/presbyter/pastor), HE (emphasis mine) desireth a good work." Nowhere in Scripture is a woman given God's approval to preach/teach within the ordained office of a pastor or evangelist. However, mature women may teach younger women as per Titus 2:3. If a woman assumes the role of preaching that is clearly restricted to men, she does so in contravention of the Lord's unequivocal instructions.
@@r.crompton2286 fair enough. Have a nice day!
@@r.crompton2286 why would you not call it sin, open rebellion and thus an abomination, for a man to receieve teaching from a woman in matters of scripture?
@@troywright359 There have been many circumstances on the mission field where willing, qualified men were unavailable to teach the heathen tribes and so available women with Bible knowledge and language skills were asked to stand in their place -- to teach any and all who have "ears to hear." In these less than ideal situations I am sure that God would not have deemed their service to be a sin or abomination. Any such abomination would certainly apply to gifted men who have failed to heed the call of God and engage in teaching God's Word as He has ordained. In North America where there are plenty of available men to teach other men God's Word, we can assume that any woman who takes the role of a pastor/presbyter/bishop is clearly not "sent" by God but "went" instead. That's an abomination. But on the mission field it's not always so clearly black and white.
Scripture is the Authority, not the elders or any man in a position in the church.
Paul said "Woman have to cover their hair with veile", "If Woman shave her hair, Its her sahmeness. Long hair is honor of woman." Then, what? Am I have to wear a hijab? LoL. Does every woman who has short hair or shaved hair is wrong? It makes no sense. What the words.
Paul said "Woman doesn't allow to asking at church. If she want, she have to ask her hudsband at home.". Well, Let's do what paul said. Women wearing hijab and being quiet, Only Men talking at the church. Sounds cool, right? Little confused that It's justice from Paul not from God. LoL.
Exactly!
@Drinker_Of_ Milk because the apostles were still alive, preaching and teaching them in person. And when they were not around or elsewhere the apostles wrote letters to those churches to teach them which is what these letters are unless you are saying what they taught and what they wrote were different in which case they were teaching the churches different things which means the apostles were not in agreement on what jesus wanted to be taught and revealed to the church. Paul was accepted by the other apostles as an apostle so they must have agreed on his teachings which means they would not have an issue with his teachings on what qualifies an elder as they would have taught the same.
I agree, everyone should know their role and play their part. we think we have the bible more figured out now then the early Christians did. We need to go back to the writings of the early Christians and their beliefs so we can learn with accuracy how we should conduct ourselves in the way they did.
Amen!
It's easy. You should keep your women silent in places of worship and make sure that slaves obey their masters. Unless you think that you're smarter than the early Christians?
Welcome a woman be a bishop
@@pltatman1do you have slaves?
@@Ike-un6mc Lol that comment was from four years ago. Regardless, early Christians had some ridiculous ideas that have no place in the modern world. I would broaden that to include many of the ideas presented in the Bible.
So good! I've been trying to understand this Scripture for such a long time. Wow 🙆🏾♀️
don't buy into this interpretation please. it's sexism hiding in fancy words. Let a woman preach.
@@bhilldesign I've actually been looking into this a lot more since I wrote my first comment and I got more context to it. From other explanations I've read, the church in Ephesus had members who used to worship the goddess Artemis, and in their mythology, Artemis was born first then she helped birth her twin brother Apollo. So because of that they glorified women to the point where they elevated them above men.
The Greek word used in that Scripture that's translated to 'authority' was referring to an aggressive and domineering kind of authority. So essentially, women in the Ephesian church were preaching in a way that they were being domineering over men.
Paul was speaking against a gender hierarchy that makes one gender "superior" to another because that's not even godly. And it's also valid the other way round if you think about it. So it all adds up the way I see it, even with Pastor John's explanation about not doing things in a way that goes against the order God put in place.
Plus, we're all constantly learning and re-learning God's word, so we should give people we don't agree with grace to grow in their knowledge and understanding of of the Scriptures.
@@gabriellachieng God could have created Adam and Eve simultaneously but he didn't.
Only the males in the Levi tribe were given the priestly office.
Jesus had 12 male disciples. The females that were always with Jesus were for another purpose.
Mark 15:40. There were also women looking on afar off: among whom was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the less and of Joses, and Salome; 41. (Who also, when he was in Galilee, followed him, and ministered unto him;) and many other women which came up with him unto Jerusalem.
@@bhilldesign Read Colossens 2 vers 8. and 1 Timothy 2 vers 11-14.
@@bhilldesign Read Colossens 2 vers 8 and 1 Timothy 2 vers 11-14. "And if you do not understand something, ask Me", says God, "and I will answer you."!!!
If women would consider the weight of eternity that is on the shoulders of a qualified pastor. A MAN that meets all the qualifications is held to such a high standard with such a high level of accountability that it's actually terrifying if not divinely called and equipped.
John Beasley, and you think women aren’t qualified? Who taught Apollos about the Holy Spirit? Both Priscilla & Aquila
@@michaelbrickley2443 no they are not qualified to hold pastoral office. There is no debate on the issue, scripture is crystal clear.
I don't think that women (or at least for me) want to be allowed to preach because they want the glory of it. I thjnknits because the entire bible reinforces the idea that God loves men and created men for himself. . . Women were just created for the sake of men. It just feels like God doesnt really love women and it's an exceptionally painful realization.
Jade Lee lol he does love you but you guys have different roles to play in and outside the church
@@johnbeasley7654 I have heard that there is a chamber in hell specifically for women pastors who had authority over men so yes, the eternal consequences are not worth it! After one minute of burning, no woman will think it is worth it.
Man thank you for clarifying this!!! I love this truth!!!!!
As a woman with a strong desire to spread the word when and where God leads me, this is a gorgeous explanation! I would also add that the culture of this time would find a woman in a church leadership role stepping not only into leadership but into a position of authority to which she was generally unaccustomed in that culture. Imagining the level of ego that could befall a person who had always held something more akin to a servant's role once thrust into authority, I can see how especially at that time such a thing would be dangerous not only to her own spirituality but to others'. Furthermore, how would others perceive anything she had to say, as she was acting in a manner so foreign to a women's situation in society? Fast forward to a modern, feminist age, women have all sorts of powers and authorities and so would be less likely than their biblical-era counterparts to become overwhelmed by their new position...HOWEVER, that does not excuse what Paul says nor what the Old Testament says about the roles of men and women, nor do those references completely deny our participation in spreading the word in our communities. What the pastor says in this video is 110% applicable and elegant and I am glad to have heard it.
You cannot change the fact that ‘ woman ‘ was made from ‘ Man ‘ whom was made by GOD “ in His own Image “ !
Fast Forward. ......... one now lives in the United Kingdom where the most senior police person is a Woman married to a Woman ! One wonders what the Saint Paul might be saying about that now ! ! It has to be a catastrophic decision from any Christian standpoint. We are , however , no longer a Christian Country and are defined by our Royals as , “ All Faiths “. What ‘ Faith ‘ , I wonder , in the World would tolerate such a shocking (from the Christian Bible standpoint) Relationship ? !
I find myself just like you and totally agree with you
@@allanmiddleton678 When God made the first Adam, Eve was within him, the original oneness. That is what marriage should look like. Oneness. The husband when he looks at his wife he is looking at himself. Then he must ask, how should I treat me?
@@allanmiddleton678 He would say nothing about a woman married to a woman, unless either of them were professing christians. We do not judge the unbeliever, that is for God.
We are in for a surprise when we get to Heaven, that’s all I can say , I don’t believe in a woman usurping authority over a man but , going out and preaching or proclaiming the gospel isn’t forbidden , the woman at the well went straight to the men and some believed
Im a strong minded choleric female but I never had a problem with the men doing the preaching! women can teach women but women cannot teach men in a congregational or any other formal teaching scenario; its not Gods order no matter how talented the woman is. its against the Bibles word.
💞👏
I still struggle with this interpretation. And not because I want to be a pastor or leader. I would not do that for a million dollars! Churches I have gone to have allowed women to preach / teach. My husband seems to think it is ok. It does disturb me because it makes me feel as if women as not as important as men. But for those of you who really believe this is the order remember God will judge leaders more harshly and that is part of why I would never want to be a leader. However, I believe God can do what He wants. He chose Deborah and Esther. I say this not to argue, but to express my studying on this topic. I must wrestle with what the Bible says for myself.
I'm 22 years old . . . And I want to denounce my faith altogether because these passages along with some of the ugliest words against women I've ever witnessed coming from the mouths of Christian men have driven me to want to kill myself just for being born a woman. My parents are the only thing keeping me from following through. But I cannot imagine spending an eternity with a being that creates an entire gender for the submission of the other. I'm struggling so badly with this. And it is not that I desire power . . . It makes me feel unloved and less valued by God. Like he'd rather work with and through men and not women. I didn't ask to be here and I didnt ask to be a woman.
@@Contrarian-v7p reading your comment a year later, but I hope that you are doing all right
Girl i wish i knew you so bad youre the most relatable person ever. Can i have your email please. 😊
@@Contrarian-v7p THE MILLION-DOLLAR QUESTION: Will you go to Heaven when you die? Have you lied, stolen, used God’s name in vain, or lusted (which Jesus said was adultery, Mt. 5:28)? If so, God sees you as a liar, thief, blasphemer, and adulterer at heart; and we’ve only looked at four of the Ten Commandments. If you die in your sins, you will end up in a terrible place called Hell. But there's good news. Though we broke God's Law, Jesus paid the fine by dying on the cross: "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (Jn. 3:16). Then Jesus rose from the dead and was seen by hundreds of eyewitnesses. He fulfilled all the prophecies of the promised Savior. Please, today, repent and trust Jesus, and God will forgive you and grant you the gift of eternal life (Eph. 2:8,9). Then, to show your gratitude, read the Bible daily and obey it, join a Christian church, and be baptized.
1 Corinthians 14:33-38 KJV
[33] For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. [34] Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. [35] And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. [36] What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? [37] If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. [38] But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
To me, its understandable that women would want to preach and teach. People get very angry about women wanting to preach or teach when, for some women, it's a talent that they have. It's also understandable that women would not want this piece of advice from timothy to be true. If it weren't true that in history there is a pervasive tendency of men abusing this authority over women, I'm sure women wouldn't be so sore about this statement. It seems that men in many ways have free reign in regards to the things that they are permitted to do whereas women are limited. It doesn't seem fair to me, as a woman. I also don't think that feminism at its very core is a bad thing or that it is detrimental to living a christian life. When God said he would make the man a "helper" it did not refer to someone subordinate or an assistant. This English word "helper" diminishes the meaning of the word in Hebrew. The word is used 21 times in the old testament and 16 of those times its referring to God. In the Hebrew text, the phrase "a suitable helper for him" doesn't even hint at subordination. Look it up. Also, when Jesus came, the new Adam, and fulfilled the prophecy in Genesis 3, did he not set right what was done wrong by Adam and Eve? So wouldn't living in Christ bring us back to the original relational dynamic set forth in Genesis. I know that certain genders are better suited to certain things then others and I know that the bible is the word of God and is truth. I guess I just need to pray, because it just seems to me like people like to use these few scriptures to keep limitations on women. Throughout history and even in conversations like this, it seems like under assertions of "it is what it is" or "stop trying to change the scriptures!" is a current of maintaining control or power. Again, I guess I need to study more or pray more.
I don't know anymore. I'm only 22 and trying to figure this out but the things Ive seen men do to women even in the church and how they treat them while clobbering them with those bible passages . . . . It's actually made me borderline suicidal, I'm not gonna lie. Christ was supposed to bring freedom but I have never felt more trapped.
@@Contrarian-v7p When Cain was having dark thoughts about his brother Abel, God told him that sin was crouching at his door but that he must rule over it. Suicidal and dark thoughts are definitely the devil crouching at your door. The enemy uses the word of God as well as people in the church to try to get us to reject God and fall into despair.
I understand your feelings. When reading sometimes it feels like God thinks that women are second-class citizens. However, my experiences with God tell me differently. I also believe that God has put talents within me and purposed me to lead in some way in the church. I trust that God will figure out how to guide me into my purpose while also abiding by his word.
Don't let the enemy make you feel trapped! You are not! Also, maybe find another church. If this church is making you feel this way I can't imagine that this is the right home for you. God knew you before he created you and he predestined you for purpose and good works. He will not let any man or woman stand in the way of what he has set out for you to do.
Tell God how you feel, tell him how you think its unfair and that you don't want to be trapped, God hears and responds to a broken and humble heart.
You ARE free in Christ, this journey is a lifelong one. Be a little bit more patient and God will bring you out of this season.
@@tys8965 I really appreciate your encouragement but I dont think this is something I can overcome. My problem is that even within the context of the creation account, the argument is that men alone were created in the image of God to bear his glory and dominion over the earth. Their superior physical strength and speed attests to that because those are the traits most suited to that purpose.
Women were made for men, for their glory and not God's. Women were made significantly physically weaker than men and I understand that men were supposed to protect women but if God knew that sin would create a world of violence, he would know how disproportionately women would be on the receiving end of that violence and pain and he STILL chose to give us the physical disadvantage despite being more vulnerable as the result of the curse pronounced at Eden.
That along with a clear male preference throughout the bible . . . I cannot describe to you how that makes me feel. It makes me feel so incredibly worthless and unloved. It makes me hate my body just for being female. It makes me feel like I am nothing more than an add-on gift to men and like I'm not a whole person. Like God would rather deal with and fellowship with men. It makes me want to hate God.
I feel like an outsider because the entire Godhead and angels are all male. Like there is an inherent quality of grandeur they all have that I cannot partake in. I didnt ask to be female. I've tried praying about it but nothing happens and I just end up not wanting to pray at all because it now feels as of there is some barrier between me and God.
I'm trying to deal with this but I can honestly say that if not for my parents who I know would be crushed by it, I would take my own life without any reservation. I'm sorry to unload this on you as a stranger but I cannot speak to anyone else and I feel I'll explode if I dont get it out.
@@Contrarian-v7p Hi Jade!
It's no problem, honestly. I've dealt with many of the thoughts that you are experiencing and in different ways I have also experienced a darkness that I thought I could not overcome.
When reading the bible, whether we know it or not, many times we're looking for confirmation of something we already believe to be true. If that's the case, you will find it and it will be heartbreaking. Many times during my struggles with fear, I've looked to the scriptures hoping to find assurance but they only incited greater fear and anxiety. It made me think that God was a tyrant, who wanted to do whatever he wanted with my life and I didn't have any choice in the matter. He could kill me, give me a disease, watch me suffer and I just had to accept it because he's God. Reading the bible only proved these things to me.
However, when those thoughts and reasonings were at the front of my mind making me bitter and resentful and angry, in the back of my mind were my experiences. I'd never starved or went without basic needs, I had never been seriously sick or ill and both of my parents are alive and love me. I'd also prayed and felt joy/peace before, I'd felt like I heard God speak to me before and I looked at the goodness of God in my life and in the lives of others.
My journey to the other side started when I joined a new church community. I got involved and joined a year long program, reading through the bible with a pastor and other ladies. My faith went up and down. I had tons of doubts and I'm sure the pastor thought I was attacking him with my dissecting and incendiary questions. This was probably the lowest point for me, I also thought a lot about suicide. When I was in the throws of mental turmoil, I thought that dying would be better than continuing to live like this. At the end of the program, I did a month long fast and I outlined clear results I wanted to get from the Lord.
It took a while but He began to speak to me through sermons, journaling, the bible and other Christians. That was the beginning of an up and down journey of ascent out of 4 years of fear, anxiety, depression and mental torture.
It's been 6 months since that fast and I'm now starting to experience the truth of God through the holy spirit. Retrospectively, I 100% know that I needed to go through what I went through to have this solid faith in God, his love, his will, and his purpose in my life.
It can feel unbearable and bleak but don't give up. Find a good community, also go to therapy, I started therapy a year ago and it really helped me to get everything out of my mind.
God is not a man. He does not have a gender. God is Spirit (Jn 4:24). He made both man and woman in his image. Think about the way God's character is described "merciful, compassionate, slow to anger, forgiving, loving, comforting..." which sex usually embodies those qualities? Women! Think about how the holy spirit is described "a comforter, a helper, an advocate, wise" women are all of those things and more.
The bible is God's inspired word but it is also a historical text that was written by men over centuries, we have to expect that cultural norms will affect the tone, word choice and intended audiences. The God of the universe is unfathomably more multidimensional than we can ever understand and I believe that God created women for himself, just like the entire universe was created for himself. I wish we would talk on the phone. If you're open to that I can direct message you my information.
Pslam 42:5...
@@tys8965 Can I ask you a favour? Please read this article and tell me what you think about it: www.9marks.org/article/man-and-woman-in-creation-genesis-1-and-2/ It has been the most comprehensive explanation of the Genesis story and one that has truly confirmed my fears.
Thank you, for taking the time out of your day to write out such a thoughtful and kind response. And thank you for offering to call me, I appreciate it but I will have to decline. I'm done. I cant do this anymore, the fact that women have to squint and do copious amounts of background research just to justify not being treated like second class citizens is telling. I never thought living in salvation would ever make me suicidal but it is. I've had the same grievances you've had and for the longest time I just had to push through, ignore it, because God is God. I'm sick of it. I do not desire to spend eternity with a being that does not love me. I dont know what will happen to my soul, perhaps I was never truly saved at all. Either way, I am well and truly finished.
A woman can minister to other women. She can also give a report of some Christian service to a congregation including men. She may not minister the word to men. I would change the question to 'Should elders who affirm that a woman should preach to men, be elders in the first place?
She can actually speak for Jesus to both men and women in assembly. 1st Corithians 11-14.
@Douglas @Jade Lee just a little FYI: do you know that man in Israël MUST go to the synagoge, and that the woman are allowed to go, but it is not obligated for they naturally live closer to God and are softer in nature ;-)
@Douglas I did not say that women are allowed to talk in church, I said that women live closer to God naturally. According to the Jewish tradition (= The olive tree on which we are grafted by grace, as you can read in the NT). Your answer is a perfect example about being harder than women. And again a little FYI: Israel still is Gods people, not because they listen so good to Him, but because of His covenant with Abraham (genesis 15) and He will never break His word. He did not and will not break His covenant with them and there is a great place for them in the future. They are going back to the land as we speak, predicted in the prophets. So I would really, really low down your tongue about saying that they are unredeemed and put yourself above them. I think you know the fruit of the Spirit in Gal 5.... try to live it out. You are not the one to judge, only God is (fortunately).
@Douglas Utter crap. That's patriarchy, not Scripture.
jmshistorycorner.wordpress.com/2020/04/24/bring-on-women-pastors/
@Douglas You are taking 1 Corinthians 14:34-38 out of context - quite sinisterly, I might add.
jmshistorycorner.wordpress.com/2019/06/30/kjv-only/
The preaching issue is low-hanging fruit in some ways, as the issue branches out to all the various meetings of God's people. Elders and godly men need to lead in all gatherings, like the prayer meetings and even times of fellowship. I went to a prayer meeting for the second time last night, and after bringing up the need for an elder or godly man to lead she gave her "defense" that she has a gift of prayer, and that she puts herself under the authority of the senior pastor. Somehow her "gift" and lip service to a compromising pastor is sufficient. Long story short, I didn't know until I said bye that the silent man nearby her was her husband. Where are the men? We are being judged in many ways because of the weak men in God's house.
So true, we have such a high calling of ministry in our own roles. "Male and female He created them" it is like fine clockwork, perfectly orchestrated by our creator from the beginning.
men and women need to learn to dance together not just remain in their own lanes.
(Genesis 2:23 KJV) And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
@@forhisglory8471(Genesis 2:24 KJV) Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one >> flesh.
No. Women cannot teach men in a weekly assembly of men or with men in it. Yes, they may teach other women and/or children. But in no circumstances men.
Read 1st Corinthians . it is to brothers and sisters. Chapter 14. .is when the church is together. Read verse 26.do u see about all ? And teach? Now who do u think Paul is saying this to.
Gabrielle Kelly
Roger Olsen goes around to so many of these Christian videos with the titles of 'woman are not to preach in the church' and numerous people have politely went into so much detail with him to show where he is manipulating his scriptures to fit his modern-day main-stream religious narratives
He even relies on the notorious NIV Bible versions which has actually been proven to be one of the worst accurate Bibles, and the ESV to have some big problems as well, and therefore neither of those can be trusted nearly as often as we can trust the KJV and the NLT
@Drinker_Of_ Milk
Nothing ridiculous about the point I made for the NIV and ESV not being nearly as reliable as the KJV and NLT
Concerning the NLT, I never said or implied it is a literal translation. Its been well-known for decades the NLT is a very nice side addition to accompany the KJV whereby making things easier to read until being able to just mostly use the KJV
...and you can go translation and scholar mining for whatever you want to fit your narratives, but we've already been here dozens upon dozen of times,
easily, where people claim the this's and thats' about their NIV and ESV being more accurate, when we can provide just as many scholars who are providing a much stronger case against the new modern-day scholars who have become partial in their translations due to the rise in what God said would certainly happen in these end times which is the falling away from His true Word and trying to promote the modern-day main-stream-religion's false doctrines, but the back n forth stuff of that never leads to anything other than us spending a week's worth of it that gets nowhere and then merely having to agree to disagree and walk away
@Drinker_Of_ Milk
Well hey God bless you and hope you have a great day :)
@@get-the-lead-out.4593 you hit the nail dead square on the head
"The big issue here is not the interpretation of the Scripture but whether we obey it or not." - Dr. Albert Mohler
oh the interpretation is necessary. keeping it in context is also necessary.
Before I was a Christian I felt that this scripture was sexist but through getting to know scripture and God it becomes abundantly clear that God knows what is best for us because He designed us. This does not make us women second-class citizens. Think of it as people within a company who each have their own specific job they were trained for. As a woman I have been designed to be more emotional than the typical male. That's what helps me to be a more compassionate mother who is sensitive her to childrens' needs and fragile spirits. It's not a bad thing at all and it is one of the things that makes me a great caretaker both in the home and in my career.
So where in the body of Christ is room for a woman who chooses to remain unwed and not bear children or for infertile women? Do you believe female terminal value is in marriage and motherhood? Whereas men have potential far beyond that and receive a spouse and children as an add-on blessing . . . But for women it's their whole value?
In Ephesians Chapter5 v.21-24...the husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of his body which is the church...Christ ultimately is the head of all men and women. This does not mean men are head of all women. Women do not go through men to get to God...Also look at Ephesians Chapter 4 starting at verse 4..we are all one body , we have the same spirit,and we have all been called to the same glorious future...then in verse 7..He has given each of us a special gift according to the generosity of Christ..What Paul was addressing in his letters to the church in Corinth concerned orderly and peaceful living and ridding themselves of pride and false teachings... they were in turmoil on every aspect of life-and needed to learn how to be orderly and peaceful. People were talking all at once..women were arguing with their husbands in public and many claimed false truths... the reference to be silent applied to talking out of turn or over the top of others which was disruptive and arrogant
Jennifer Thom, yes you are correct, men seem to evade that issue and most of them know this. I don't understand why the books in the Bible of the women that showed demonstrated much faith, love, courage in the Bible are not preached about. And they definitely hate to even mention Prophetess Deborah. I thought the whole bible is supposed to be preached and teached, how are they still keeping God commandments?.
What incredible insight and wisdom. This is by far the most intelligent, and the most comprehensive, treatment of this problem.
You should definitely watch this sermon it was totally on point!
m.ruclips.net/video/n8ncOf82ZJ0/видео.html
That says more about your choice of sources if you think THIS is the most comprehensive and intelligent treatment of "the problem" lol.
Jade Lee, that sounds angry. Care to challenge it with scripture? 😉
@@eric_martindale1711 Sorry I didnt see your reply . . . You didnt tag me correctly. Not angry haha, amused. All these verses in 1 Timothy 2:8-15 are about specific people and specific problems in the Ephesian church. These verses are corrective. They are not general teaching. This doesn’t mean that principles cannot be derived from these verses, but we need to understand Paul’s intent here before we work out any principles and apply them more broadly.
Understanding Paul’s intent is not straightforward, however; and we need to acknowledge that 1 Timothy 2:12 is not as clear in the original Greek as in most English translations.
@@eric_martindale1711 reason I believe 1 Timothy 2:12 is about a particular couple, and not referring to all women in general, is because the context of the second half of 1 Timothy 2 is the problem behaviour of particular people in the Ephesian church.
~ In 1 Timothy 2:8, Paul addresses the problem of specific men. He is not speaking about all Christian men, only those who were praying with unresolved anger issues and quarrels, and Paul offers correction to their behaviour.
~ In 1 Timothy 2:9-10, Paul addresses the problem of specific women, certain rich women who were wearing luxurious hairstyles, jewels and clothing. These two verses do not refer to all Christian women, only to those who were showing off their wealth, and Paul offers correction.
~ In 1 Timothy 2:11-15, Paul narrows his focus to the problem behaviour of one of these rich women. This woman was not ready to teach-she needed to learn quietly-and she was acting in a domineering or controlling manner (Greek: authenteõ) towards a man, most likely her husband. Her controlling behaviour may have stemmed from a concern about the effects of sex and procreation on salvation, a not uncommon concern in the early church.
The devilish feminism wants to change God's divine order.
God will unleash the hounds, the dogs of hell, and will eat up the feminist... they will receive the same judgement that Jezebel received...
That's why pagan gods use have female image as gods. Satan wants to completely reverse gods order.
Paul didn't write 1 Timothy - and Gods divine order was men and women in equality - otherwise the curse in Genesis 3:16 wouldn't have been a curse. Search your heart and really see if you think that in heaven that in any way men will have more authority than women, and the amount of chances that you take to break them down - how many will God bring to mind as sins against the church on Judgement Day? More women than before want to be house wives and people prefer the traditional lifestyle of a dad working and a mother raising their kids - these are gen Y and Z people! So you are full of it! Being used by the enemy to put forth distracting messaging and clouding what the gospel stands for. Anyone who thinks they wouldn't have been a Pharisee and they would have stood with Christ - thinks FAAAARRRRR too much of themselves. Because ALL the sheep scattered - out of the thousands - no one. It was the religious elite of the day clinging to the juvenile nature of their milk faith, while swallowing camels whole. You must search for the truth - lest you try and stop a miracle as to not offend someone.
Ding Dong your religion is wrong
@@JorgeGonzalez-us3su which religion
Good discussion and approach to the text. I’d also add for clarity that the Bible must be treated as a whole and complete work that compliments and commentates on itself.
The appeal to order of creation also is applied in 1 Cor 11 with regard to head coverings and is even paired with a strongly worded appeal to nature, and yet many churches consider this admonition to be cultural. I don't see a consistent hermeneutic that allows women to pray without head covering but restricts teaching.
PROVERBS 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
So do you believe in or allow, or ordain women as pastor, elder, apostle or appoint then teachers in your congregation?
@@bernardshand3697 This is what the Lord does not me
@@marcaskew7125 your answer isn't clear brother
Biblical Facts: Paul the Apostle was the last apostle. Anyone who declares otherwise is either wilfully ignorant of Biblical truth or blatantly evil and in rebellion against Almighty GOD. The "Social Gospel" is not the Gospel of the Holy Bible and the Lord Jesus Christ who was born of the virgin Mary of Jewish (Hebrew, Semitic,Caucasoid) ancestry.
Is that a yes or no?
I think it's more about how it affects the role of the man than it is about what's 'forbidden for a woman'. There's something about a woman being the spiritual leader of men that just simply isn't biblical and goes against the order God created... periodt.
Dear pastor John, please can you tell me.. What about the deborah in the old testament where God raised her as one of the judges of israel....??
Amen 🙏🙏🙏Thank you God for revealing all truth to me.. this was something that was on my mind.. God said no it’s No 😇
AND NO MEANS NO!😂
Although WOMEN must have an affirmation to preach in many churches and be approved by elders created systems - it's a perverse interpretation of God's ordinances. And the reason is simple: in Gen 3:15, women have been put on the line to carry The Seed by God. That's why so many women aren't allowed to be ministers, leaders, or even speak from the stages in so many churches... she may deliver what God put in her and that is DANGEROUS to the so-called "biblical authority" created by rulers of this world.
"And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,..."
Can she? Yes. "Can" is a question regarding ability. What matters is permission. May she according to God / The Bible? No.
Incorrect.
jmshistorycorner.wordpress.com/2020/04/24/bring-on-women-pastors/
@@j-mshistorycorner6932 i'm not reading this crap, speak for yourself or don't waste my time.
@@doctrinalwatchdog6268 That link was written by me. It IS me speaking for myself. Read it. It's what Scripture ACTUALLY says.
@@j-mshistorycorner6932 you totally miss the point, it's not about silencing women, it is about God ordained roles and clearly Deborah was not a pastor and teacher in the church, no female was because God forbids it in the Bible. Unless you have chapter and verse I don't care about your convoluted arguments.
@@doctrinalwatchdog6268 You seem to have forgotten Huldah, Priscilla, a female deaconess mentioned at one point, and the woman Junia described as being an apostle.
AND there is no prohibition on women being a pastor or teacher in the church.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 can not mean what it's traditionally understood to mean because Paul elsewhere talks favourably about women praying & prophesying in the church.
1 Timothy 2:12 is grammatically (in the Greek) addressed at a single domineering woman (the word "authority" here means to domineer or bully or force someone to do something against their will - kinda like my father, who used these verses as justification), and the word "teach" is grammatically unconnected to the word "men" - she is being forbidden to teach period, and gender has nothing to do with it.
Let the truth prevail and let every lie be silenced! You have spoken a great truth...
Charms is that a yes or no?
I enjoyed this listen. The thing I can appreciate about this, is that in the past, Piper has spoken about his mum being the spiritual head/authority in his home while his dad was away preaching. Once his father came home, his mom happily returned the responsibility to his Dad. That, for me, pretty much sums it up. If there are men present to lead, let them lead. That's with home and church. Biblically speaking, there are examples in the Bible where women led men. Deborah is the first example that comes to mind. She governed the nation of Israel. Before her, Miriam led the Israelites, men and women in praise after they had crossed the red sea and in the New Testament, Priscilla taught the scriptures to men and women in her home along with her husband. Both of these are examples of Church Leadership. I'm not thrown by what Piper has said...but that may be because I know some more of the background or context where this couched. I would agree though, the audio in this video needs added clarification. Which is why he mentioned the available literature on Desiring God website.
@DyingToLiveForJesus Sir, since your comment has no biblical context, I'll take it as a pretext.
@DyingToLiveForJesus "Head of the house" is not even in the bible. Look it up. You wont find it anywhere. If women cannot teach men then Priscilla, a woman praised by Paul, was a sinner because she taught Apollos.
@DyingToLiveForJesus Lol. So you rely on an English translation of an ancient Greek manuscript and then expect to correctly translate it with a foreign cultural lens? In the Greek, Ephesians 5:22 makes no sense without 5:21 (“submit to one another”). This is because verse 22 borrows the sense of “submit” from verse 21. There is no verb or participle that means “submit” in verse 22 in some of the oldest Greek manuscripts. It was not unusual for Paul to make verbs and verbal ideas do double duty. What this does is create a sense of mutual submission. Husbands arent told to "lead" like Christ -theyre told to love their wives like Christ. Women in that culture were already fully "submitting" to their husbands -they were considered their property. Paul is proposing a radical reconfigurement of marriage. Again, give me a single scripture where men are told to lead.
@DyingToLiveForJesus Maybe I'd take your warning seriously if you didnt place God's ACTUAL word (the Hebrew and Greek) over the English. I didnt add or take anything away.
Scripture doesn't say that they taught together. It says that there was a church in their home. There's a difference. Now, Priscilla and Aquila privately invited someone to their home and explained the Scripture more thoroughly to him, but again, this doesn't say that they preached together. Explaining Scripture to someone is not the same thing as standing in the pulpit preaching to the entire congregation. People want to extrapolate this because women want to preach. I have also heard women justify this because they have the gift of teaching. Scripture doesn't say that you can't use your gift appropriately. There are a lot of areas a woman can use this gift: leading a small women's group, teaching an all-women's Sunday School class, witnessing to people on the street. None of those are a violation of God's Word. Standing in a pulpit teaching men is not an appropriate use of that gift. We cannot allow the culture to influence our interpretation of God's Word.
Consider the question ! If elders would affirm a woman to preach, they need to immediately resign their position. They're not biblical elders.
Agreed. They are pathetic elders if they would go against the God of the Bible.
@Drinker_Of_ Milk who do you think told Paul that? Take a guess
I would like to include that testimony of experiences a woman has endured could be given on a Sunday still as long as a man is teaching the lesson involved. This still brings a woman in without making her the teacher herself.
So women can't even pray or sing in church? We can't even share testimony? Interesting
@Levi Cross wait, so you think all women should literally be silent every time they enter a church? weird flex and definitely unbiblical
@Levi Cross Oh, so you think that's literal, it's a shame if a woman ever speaks while inside or attendning church?
ok
Thank you! I went to a church last week and the pastor’s wife preached. I was so upset by this. I’m a women as well. We can’t have one foot in and one foot out with the scriptures. Follow the Bible, or not at all.
You're a sheep.
@Ja C If Jesus loved me he wouldn't have commanded my death in Leviticus 20:13
If Jesus was loving, he would let women preach.
You disgust me.
@@flunkiebubs2002 I am wondering if you are Nephilim (that has already been judged?)...
@@flunkiebubs2002 okay so u are questioning god?
@@amaledward2147 Yes.
@S. M. I wish I were a Nephilim, that would be metal af.
It took us 8 minutes to get to the answer...the answer is No
Thank you John you made me nervous😂
I don’t get it. My grandmother is a reverend and has all the gifts of the Holy Spirit. God continuously uses her to talk to His people. Of course my grandfather (the main preacher) is the one who mainly preaches, but my grandmother also teaches Gods word to the church. There’s also another lady that preaches in church.
@@Ashley-ro4xz respectfully Paul is really clear on Elder Qualifications
@@Ashley-ro4xz God's word is the authority of His church not your grandmother or anyone else. Has all the gifts of the Holy Spirit?? Watch yourselves, blasphemy of the Spirit is an unforgivable sin
@@Ashley-ro4xz You seem to hold your grandma up as an adored idol. Let the word of God be the principal source of your convictions and practices.
God's word is clear regarding this issue. Women who seek to be church elders or preachers to have authority over men in the church, or in the home, defy God's law and it represents a rebellion against the design for His creation. So it is equally destructive for men not to fulfill their responsibility as Christ like leaders by abrogating their duties. Both have serious consequences for all involved.
Paul's word, not God's word.
One word according to Scripture NO !
The moment one is in attendance of a church allowing this doctrine of women being teachers over men, one becomes an aider and abettor.
Finally, some real courage from the pulpit and some real wisdom in the comment section. I have a wife and two daughters. They are all born again Christians as am I. They have much to add to the body of Christ, but in God's ordained order; not according to the every changing whims of society.
As they say I'm the world,, "what part of the word NO don't you understand?".
If elders affirm it then they are not true elders. Nuff said.
?
And yet many who agree with this interpretation of 2 Timothy are content to let women teach or lead children’s ministry. Who did Jesus entrust to announce to the disciples that he was risen from the dead (the most important bit of good news in the gospel)? Women. Paul names Junia (a woman) as prominent among the apostles in Romans 16:7. This issue is not as cut and dry as this one passage in Timothy would make it seem. The whole of scripture must be taken in to account as well. Context matters greatly.
Can Elders affirm what God forbids? We know the answer; but ever since the fall of man, we tend to judge the decisions of God.
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah.
Reply for it if desired.
Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually.
That is how a woman could judge
men of their sins, including homicide.
She was a pastor, according to the scriptures.
This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles.
To say a woman can be a Judge over Israel, but a woman can't be an elder in a small church, just doesn't make any sense scripturally.
Mary was also the FIRST to see Jesus after the resurrection and he told to tell them I've risen
very good point!
joseph gallardo so what r u saying?. She is not preaching to men.
@@kelvinbarber1765 the point is to give a message from god. And that was jesus wanted her to do. To teach and to preach is not the same.
Kelvin Barber she told the disciples the good news, as Jesus commanded her to. What exactly is preaching?
Vitali Zimmerling our teacher is the holy spirit, not human
i understand what pastor john is saying...but how is it that Deborah in the bible was judge over all israel? was that wrong for her to be a judge? if she was a judge that put her in a place of authority.
By my understanding there is an awful lot in the old testament that doesn't fit with God's model for how we should live, but for reasons I don't fully understand there is no comment on it being wrong, examples are things like Jacob having 2 wives and then also having children with their servants, or Solomon having many wives and concubines. Sorry this isn't a great answer, but it's a step to open our eyes to the wider narrative of the bible. As knowledge increases it seems at first you find inconsistencies, then you resolve them, and then the same thing happens all over again.
Hi Zahira, being a judge in Israel was akin to being a judge in a court of law today. Deborah functioned as one who resided over disputes in a court of law. That isn't the same as having oversight in a church fellowship and responsibility before God for teaching doctrine. Deborah in the OT was not a Levite priest and therefore would never have taught doctrine over Israel (i.e. the Mosaic law at that time). :-)
@@fromfierytrialstofreedom1992 where does it say that Levites are prophets? They are supposed to be priests, not prophets. And Deborah was a prophet of God! She was inquired of the rulers of God, just like Samuel.
@@anneharrison1849 Deborah doesn't fall into those categories. She spoke directly from God's revelations to her. And whatever she spoke was followed to fulfil God's will.
@@ramsaval Hello N Sd. I'm a bit tired tonight so I might be missing something here ... but the Bible doesn't say that Levites were prophets and neither did I. Not sure what you're saying ... perhaps you misread my comment above?
But are we reading this verse/chapter in context?
I think in this case we are, or they are.
@@litatjie why do you think so?
@@nobuhlenkosi1518 because I read it.
@@litatjie I am not talking about just reading, did you research on when this was written, what were those times like etc. ?
@@nobuhlenkosi1518 did you?
It is two different thing 1. Woman to teach over a man 2. Woman to teach in the church. In my observation of the text from verse 11 to 15 this refers to the attitude or manner of men and woman in the church.
Very true.The Lord taught me directly that .
Elders do not have carte blanche to ignore Biblical precepts.
And there's no Biblical precept against female pastors.
jmshistorycorner.wordpress.com/2020/04/24/bring-on-women-pastors/
@@j-mshistorycorner6932 -- Church leaders can only be men, because only men can be the husband of one wife. I Tim 3:2
Also, I Timothy, there is no 'original Aramaic', because Paul wrote the letter in Greek.
@@gregb6469 The NT was primarily written in Hebrew and Aramaic, but that's for another discussion.
And that phrase was a expression used to mean married - whether male or female.
@@j-mshistorycorner6932 -- You are confused. It is the Old Testament that was written in Hebrew and Aramaic. The New Testament was written entirely in Greek.
@@j-mshistorycorner6932 That's the Old Testament bro.
Good video. I know of a situation where there's a woman that is the pastor of her church, and her husband stays at home and takes care of the kids. She justifies it by the fact that he's still the head of the household, but according to this video, that doesn't take away from what God's where it has to say on this issue. Not to be mean, but just because her husband is okay with it doesn't mean that God is. She seems like a nice person though ,🤷🏿♂️
The Man is the head
William Figueroa what body part is the woman?
Gospel Bearer she's his partner and he leads but he needs to love her as Christ loved the church
@@GospelBearer the neck. She turns the head in any direction she wants to 😂.
@@jak3math3w good one
We aren't... we are just his slave to serve and serve and serve his ever whim with no honor, or reward.
I really don't understand the debate. I could understand if there was a lot of text about this; but it is not. It is clearly not a parable, it is straight to the point.
No Elders cannot override what God has already said
Wow, a lot of downvotes on this one. God’s Word is to instruct us how to feel; our feelings are not to reinterpret God’s Word. It’s about submitting to God’s ORDER. It’s not about ability, it’s about order. Women aren’t to lead the local church for the same reason they aren’t to lead the marriage or the household. There are SO many forms of ministry that God is calling and empowering women for! Stop rebelling against God’s order, submit, and seek His will, and you find longer lasting fulfillment! Let us coach you if you need help. God bless.
Beautifully and Biblically Put.
So where is the place of a woman in the church who is not married or a mother nor is seeking to be one? Where does God use women? There is no industry where he chooses to use or deal with women ALONE the way he does with men. God does not care about women.
No answer?
Elders, that are Biblical, would never ever call a woman to preach a sermon on a Sunday morning service.
Now, there is a difference between a sermon and a lesson, say on mental illness which the wife suffers from, but not in an authoritative manner for sure
There is no such thing as a Sunday morning "service" in the bible. In the nt. The Saints met together to edify each other not listen to a preaching. Preaching was to be done to the list out side.
Second time watching. I still don't know how to fully embrace this word, but I pray eventually I will
If it helps, this is about church assembly. Doesn’t mean you can’t share the gospel or teach elsewhere. For instance…you may share a message on your social media although anyone can watch and learn from it. Also, there’s so much liberty in all-women conferences and gatherings. 🙌🏽😍
Gods word is sometimes hard to embrace but what makes it easy for me is that it’s written plainly in the text. It’s not John Pipers word.
ruclips.net/video/dr3Wcf_U2Bk/видео.htmlsi=K--72XjqJPl_fL7B
@shuffle6260 my wife and I have been struggling with it. We are fairly 'modern' types, and she brought this to my attention when she was leading a bible study on biblical women. It was hard to swallow and still to this day i sometimes fear we have it wrong.
Every Christian should read, "In the Beginning: The Truth behind Genesis". All prohibition against women in leadership stem from the first three chapters of Genesis. The problem is we never teach or look at Genesis 5:2
Paul explained that man and woman are equal in Christ.
So now we are stuck with the section where Paul seems to forbid woman to speak, teach etc.
Read that section carefully is says: "as it is written according to the law".
Well. There you go. The law has been fullfilled. Love defines our actions.
It is common knowledge that ancient churchfathers of a "certain denomination" had their hand in selecting biblebooks and adding/changing original text.
So follow the Spirit on this one. In Gen it says "God made man, man and woman God made them".
Would you not rather have a wonderworking by Holy Spirit transformed woman of God behind the pulpit, who knows what she is talking about: then a mere man with puffed up bible knowledge?
For instance. We were in Africa bringing the Gospel. My wife and i split up. Walking through a village preaching, praying for the sick, walking in love. Everybody i prayed for got healed. Everybody my wife prayed for got healed.
Male-female "differences" cease to exist in Christ.
It's sad that men insist a woman is incapable of understanding the word of God. I have seen woman believe this and not even pick up the Bible and try. Jesus never said a woman can't witness for him. The woman at the well was one of the first people who witnessed for Jesus. She went told everyone about him. The men that teach this doctrine are gravely mistaken because flesh doesn't enter into heaven, gender prophets no one. We are all souls and Jesus sees the heart.
John Piper is not saying that women are incapable of understanding the word of God. He even says that people who think that got it wrong. Women are not to teach and have authority over men because ha is the order that God created man and woman in, not because women are incapable of teaching or that they arent smart enough.
@@timelessboys978 Ok but then what is Paul implying by bringing up the fact that Eve was deceived but not Adam? There is an implication of spiritual inferiority there and he uses universal principles by bringing up childbirth and applying it to all women.
Jade Lee, There is no implication of inferiority, only the teaching that God created man and woman for different roles within the family and within the church. Biblical Christianity does not hold that women are inferior to men, but that doesn’t mean men and women are exactly the same and were created by God for the exact same roles.
@@timelessboys978 But that doesnt explain why he brings up the fall. That passage has been used to evidence women's spiritual naivety by many people. Plus the only roles women were created for is being wives and mothers. And even in those contexts they dont lead their marriages or families.
Jade Lee, Rewatch Pipers explanation, around the 4-5 minute mark he explains how Satan’s first attack was on God’s order of the relationship between man and woman. Satan went to Eve, the “weaker vessel” as Peter puts it in 1 Peter 3:7, instead of going to Adam, the “Head of the wife” as Paul puts it in Ephesians 5:23. Piper says this is like the enemy leader approaching your lower commander, while you are right there next to him as the higher commander. Watch Pipers explanation again.
Thank you guys for all your work and helping spread the gospel.
Thanks pastor for your explanation. Im a divorcee mother of two beautiful girls , our pastor is a newly born again, and passionate about God , his wife is long in the Lord, from bible school and has a good understanding of scripture but... i gues she is a woman. Once you ask something or share your challenge with the pastor for advice(i ask him cause i don"t have a husband to ask at home),the he has find a Sunday sermon and even call the persons name, repremand in the middle of the sermon, make it a long story, some sunday hecsay it straight if you have come with a bible, im not even gonna open it, it prophesy day no bible reading, every Sunday he comes with something different for congregation to take out money for their healing, if its not a red string its salt, its always something, there so much unfortunately he is a man, he has authority and there is nothing we can(including her wife) do we have to submit as women and i feel as a head of my family i need to protect my self and kids from wrong doctrine of the pastor. I decided to leave that church
I appreciate your story. Thank you. Many people do not think about situations like this or even mention it. They are just like "well women are dumb and men have all the answers so be quiet cause you don't know better." And I'm like...."really? I know many men who ruin their family's finances, strike their wives, never get jobs, and pimp out their wife's body because "he's so immaculately and needs income"
Can someone please draw a very, very clear line between authoritarive and non-authoritative teaching for me and explain exactly where authority lies in teaching? I'm a woman and I want to study the bible in its original languages and then I would like to teach on what the original writings convey that is difficult to translate into Indo-European languages. I would also like to generally teach on interpreting the bible or how two seemingly contradictory ideas in the bible actually are not and tie in well with the whole context of the bible. I would also like to help bring people to the faith by clarifying misconceptions and explaining how some philosophical ideas can be viewed through the lense of the bible. I feel like doing all this it would be difficult for me to not share my opinion on how I think things should be run in the church, and I feel like that is not reqlly authoritative, but combine it with teaching what the bible says and it blurs the line quite a darn bit. I'm just confused and I have a really hard time conceptualizing authority to begin with. I'm confused why Paul says to neither teach nor exercise authority and not just the latter, it only makes sense for me in the context of that time and not today's time.
Also, I hate, hate, HATE with a *very passionate hate* saying such as "the bible is very clear on that and you're just in denial" or "the bible is easy to understand but hard to swallow". Listen, whatever issues I have _besides understanding,_ I at least want to be given some respect that I am genuine in how I describe my struggles, as much as I can be, and genuinely seeking to follow God. *DO NOT* come tell me what I understand and don't understand and why I say I don't understand it and what my motivation is and whether I am someone who genuinely seeks to follow God. Don't come at me with a definitive statement about me thay I have the spirit of Jezabel. *EXPLAIN IT TO ME.* If I do have the spirit of Jezabel I believe God is merciful and loving enough to open my eyes to that and lead me out of it. But just throwing that statement at me is not helping me see it and understand it.
I've always taken the whole 'teaching to be done by men' thing as being in a church context. Paul was taught by a man and his wife. Can't recall their names rn. So you could absolutely invest in that and approach it in, say, an academic context. Just pastoral roles in churches, God has designated men.
Also you could totally have a say in a church as a woman. If you are a member, there are often members meetings in churches I'm familiar with. Where insights are gathered from members of the church by the eldership.
I don't understand why there is so much energy and time spent on this question. Of course a woman can speak! Not overstepping a man of course. But God can and does speak through women in a church setting. The woman is not the pastor...but she can be a guest speaker. I didn't realize this was deemed a "controversial" issue. When I saw someone start writing about a controversial issue on fb and then posted this video I was expecting something quite different. Women are to submit to men and remain quiet when they are teaching and learn. However, as a guest a woman can speak. Something to think about though on my part.
💞👏
After reading the book "misreading scripture with western eyes" I realized that not all biblical rules are supposed to be taken literally, as Western readers often do, but as it would've been understood then, and by people of a different culture, as that was the readership.
I believe the ordination of women in the Anglican church has done a lot of good, and if someone has a gift, to then suppress that, it's not really doing the ministry any service, certainly not the kingdom of God. There are fewer men in church now and to choose someone without a gift or qualifications, over women who do and have, as I've seen, is to hinder what the spirit is doing, and for what? Will God really say, thank you, You kept the "order" and the words literally, but my kingdom is stunted because you didn't let my daughters who have a gift I gave her, speak. So many opportunities gone. I respect John Piper and agree with him on a lot, but not on this. I also encourage people to read other translations of the Bible, not only the Complementary ESV, because some actually wrote that a woman was a Deacon.
I disagree we cant break Gods word to uphold another part of it saying God we need a leader cause u say so so we will break what u say over hre to obey what u have said here. I will not say that there hasnt been amy good from women teaching but to take human results above the word of God is dangerous inatead we should thank God that inspite of our disobedience he still blessed us and then try to conform to what his word says.
@@boicejr8380 think that's not my point? As a translator I know that original audiences and translator bias can change meaning before the reader reads. And reader bias, what worldview they hold already, also changes interpretation. No good translator translates literally, so why would any good reader just read the words without taking into account context (historical and present). I recommend you read that book which is by renowned pastors based in good theology.
Please dont be offended I honestly just love discussing and debating the Bible its just who I am, and honestly I learn the best this way. However when u say that the translators could translate wrong you are getting into some very dangerous water cause u are not really question modern interpretation of the Bible but rather u are questioning the integrity of God's word as it is. If God is omnipotent then mans translation will not discredit his word in the slightest. It was like when he says to peter in Matthew 16: 18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell will not prevail. So if we say that mabye this verse that says women cant pastor is or could be mistranslated we fall into a pit where we can question everything in the Bible and simply just cherry pick what suits us please don't think this is me just getting on u I just want to see if this is where your stance is if not please correct me. Also read 1 Corinthians 12:12-31 Just because we have different functions does not mean we are unequal or dispensable. Even as what humans would perceive as the smallest lowly job Scripture teaches that it is just as important as the greatest teacher or missionary. I hope you have a good day or night.
p.s. this took me like over 20 minutes to find ur commet lol
@@boicejr8380 this is not a balance debate and you're not informed. Of course we need to rely on the holy spirit to interpret and there is an element of faith, but history and language changes throughout time. Middle Eastern audiences will interpret a passage different from you. I use the NET Bible with has translator notes so the translation process is transparent. Even Bible scholars know the forces behind different versions of the English Bible, so they have all the information to interpret the Bible correctly. It helps you to understand the original author s intent. I'm not going to persuade you, because it's not easy to do the work so people just take things at face value. Good luck with that!
My mom taught me the bible. I think a lot of women know the bible really well.
You wanna preach? Preach to your family.
Why not let them be successful in something that they are good at? Why just limit it to the family?
How many female apostles did Jesus have? Then Why?
@@David-_-_- Men are built to lead under any social or environmental condition. Jesus knew better. The best leaders prepare disciples specially for the worst times and not only for the good ones.
@@David-_-_- Paul is not talking about subservience. Instead, he is teaching about order. Women have power in the Bible and have multiple roles too.
@@David-_-_- I don't take people, that call themselves Christians but don't follow the rules of the Bible, seriously.
The Bible have phases.
All of them are consistent on how women should behave.
No man should come and try to explain what is evident in the Bible.
@@David-_-_- I no longer attend to churches.
Because the only thing that you can guard from corruption is your spirit.
Churches no longer defend The Bible.
@@David-_-_- Yes
PROVERBS 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.
A woman should have every right a man has!!
women can PREACH, they can go to conferences and speak, or lead bible studies, but cannot be the singular lead pastor of a church
You are part of the reason there are so many single Christian sisters. I hope you have a good explanation for why many will never hold children of their own. Why the church failed and is failing to raise Christian men and how female pastors only add to the toxic environment.
@@lkae4 The second half of your sentence makes no sense.
Jade Lee Female pastors are toxic to Christian males. But that's exactly what the progressives want. That's exactly what BLM wants according to their website, to disrupt the nuclear family. Congrats, you're fighting against Jesus and his church.
@@lkae4 First of all, your reactive emotional jabs and assumptions are very reminiscent of BLM and SJW extremists who try to guilt trip people into following their cause. Secondly, there is not a scriptural basis to prohibit women from preaching or teaching. A thorough study of the original Greek will show this as well as looking into the cultural milieu of the verses used to claim this. You cannot take an ancient book set in a particular time and that was not even written in English and then apply a modern lens onto its interpretation. You will make mistakes.
@@lkae4 And btw, as a 22 year old woman I would rather choose to stay single than marry one of today's "Christian males".
You must look at the context of the particular situation Paul is addressing. Did women have leadership over men in their pagan temples ? In Paul’s time women were not educated. In our times women are well educated and know the scriptures. Paul was not giving rules and commands, but rather advice. If we make people conform to social traditions, then we might as well be Pharisees. Each congregation should choose their leaders on their abilities and gifts, as the sprit leads. Jesus continues to break down barriers and prejudices now ,just as he did in his ministry. He reinterpreted the Old Testament by fulfilling it and revealing God’s true heart, which was buried in cultural rules and regulations. Let’s not make the same mistake and bury Jesus in our dogmas.
My question Is, if Jesús was breaking prejudiced, why were His 12 disciples only men? Of course im not saying women are less capable, but i believe Jesús also knew the importance of this order, Lets not forget that he prayed to the father before chosing His disciples. Like i said , that doesnt mean that women didnt have a special place in Gods heart, i mean , when he Rose from His tomb he showed himself to women first. In our human logic if he showed himself to women in His resurection it would have been More logical that he "should" have chosen those women to be part of the disciples to testify of His resurection, but he didnt. Sorry for my bad writing, english Is not my native language😅
This teaching will keep many people, especially women from knowing Christ. Rules and laws become a stumbling block. I want to focus on the gospel. Are you saying my salvation depends on getting this right?
@@rhondarockhound622 Christ reminded his Apostles that it wasn't about Position. But about Serving. Humility of Heart is what God honors. If woman or men allow themselves to be offended solely based on the fact that they can't preach, pastor etc. There's a heart issue. And this Conviction alone should hold us back to first examine our hearts before we dare preach unto others. And if no man wants to stand in the gap. By all means Let the Lord rise up Woman who will such as Esther's.. As the psalmist put it, Great peace have they that Love your Law and nothing shall offend them. That's the issue with the church today. Many become offended because of Doctrinal differences. And so they allow their hearts to be polluted , focusing rathor on position and a "name" for ourselves to be "noticed" and we lose focus on the Humility that Christ Stressed to His apostles.
I agree I definitely interpret Paul's instructions to Timothy based on the culture that was present at that time. Woman worshipped a false dietys named Diana. And even now many woman still today are worshipping this false dietys teaching they are Superior to men especially here in the west. Humility is What God honors, not position.
Servant of Christ you have a good point. However I’ve been going to church all my life and depending on men to teach me. Now with access to the internet I’ve discovered that I have not been taught how to to read scripture, defend my faith or share the gospel. In church we hear all the beautiful scriptures, but if we actually read all of the Bible it’s not an easy read. There is so much hidden meaning behind the ancient context and it’s violence - I just can’t accept as God’s will. Unfortunately When my children went to college, they weren’t prepared to defend their faith. And when they saw mean spirited Christians they decided christianity is a big farce. If and when God calls me to speak or teach I will do it ! Even if a man tells me to sit down and shut up. My church is dwindling. Where have all the young people gone?
@@rhondarockhound622 I'll be praying for you. And His church he has entrusted in your care. Remain Humble. And continue to seek Him and His perfect will for your Life.
After all Mary Magdalene, The Samaritan woman, Esther and many more woman of God couldn't hold back because they encountered Christ. Why should you hold back?
I've met Christians who are very contentuous but God is The Judge. Don't you ever stop Preaching Christ and what he did for you!
The matter of woman preachers is only a temporary matter. But a woman who fears the Lord is and Eternal Blessing. I'm praying for you even now Rhonda. God bless you and your house
This pastor is good. He took 10 minutes to answer a question that only required the answer of NO! with of course the scriptures to back it up.
Then how do you justify letting Beth Moore go all over the world "preaching" to millions, but can't preach in her own home church?
Jared, I think he just showed you how he justified it. It's called scripture. Wake up.
from my understanding, many women HAVE a problem with ms. moore...one asks if God called OR did moore call herself? i don't personally care for her, just because i don't care for her teaching style.. but i think there are so many variables that in the end, who knows?i respect several pastors and many disagree on whether a woman can teach or not or pastor.. i personally believe women shouldn't..
Big difference between preaching the gospel to the lost, and teaching Christ's Church!
Beth Moore's conferences are for women
This might be helpful. Here Pastor John talks precisely about Moore
ruclips.net/video/Rmar_uBUD1U/видео.html
Many men are called to preach. They submit to the authority of God and become obedient by preaching. If a woman wants to preach disobediently, then what's the point?
Men and women are alike in this: Be obedient to God.
Difference? Women should obey men not the other way. So nope
Actually it also says women are to remain silent in the assembly.
Somehow I don’t think “teaching” establishes final “authority” over anyone let alone men. Rather, ones ability to teach demonstrates ones ability to potentially influence, whether good or bad.
Any man that has been married for a length of time can testify how his wife does influence not just the children but also himself. The responsibility rest not solely on the “influencer” but on those who are potentially influenced. However, one could argue against that when it comes to children being influenced. They for a time have no choice to logically process what is being taught, but rather, they naturally take in what they’re exposed to. With that said, yes the “man” (husband /father) is the final resting place for ultimate responsibility as seen in genesis 3. What is being taught to his wife, his children as well as what is he taking in that is potentially influencing his and his family’s identity.
I think at the end of the day leadership is not as much of an authority as much as it is a “responsibility”. Leadership that is in a position of authority is ultimately held responsible for lessons, decisions and choices that effect that sphere they are responsible too.
Things would be so much easier if men alone were created and could reproduce asexually.
@@Contrarian-v7p no man will agree
We can't change the bible with GOOD LOGIC. SCRIPTURE IS CLEAR.. JUST NOT EASY TO ACCEPT
Praise the Lord
Amp version- psalm 68:11 The Lord gives the word (of power); the women who bear and publish (preach) the good news are a great host. God has called women to preach the Gospel
What Paul is talking about is women not preaching in an authoritative position over men. Women can share the gospel with anyone, just not in an authoritative position of teaching men. Pretty simple.
This is a tough one for the feminist of today. Then again being a woman of God is a tough one for women today. A woman of God is submissive, meek, gentle, quiet, modest. Most women of today, especially in Babylon America think this is weakness and strive and desire to be the opposite. Just watch the comments from the women and see for yourself. And the men are becoming like women. Most of you in the comment section are fake Christians. You don’t love the Word you love yourself. You have created a Jesus made in your image with attributes after your own wicked heart. Scariest words in the Bible is when you will be standing before Him claiming to have known Him and loved Him and He will say “away from me you who practice lawlessness, I never knew you.”
A woman has every right to share the gospel. without anyones permission.
I received this differently than I had before. The fact that woman are permitted from preaching shows not only grace but favor. I didn’t realize it until this time. I had always looked at it as strictness before
How is it favour? If I may ask.
I'm interested in knowing how it shows favor as well
Sorry that I missed your initial response, Jade. Luckily someone else shared in your curiosity! Hi Paige! It’s nice to revisit this moment. It’s been a long time since I heard Piper speak. He was really a big part of my life in this season of my life. Anyways, here is my response to your question:
Men and women were made “differently,” not “hierarchically” as society has often perceived and portrayed this difference. In fact, society always takes difference hierarchically, when that is not why difference or diversity exists-race and racism being the greatest example. White and black ARE different, but neither is superior. Each race is gloriously made because both races are eligible to have faith in Jesus Christ and enter the Promise of God. In regard to ministry, as Piper explains, women not becoming pastors is not a matter of competence; women were made in their own unique, god-given way, not in order to form a hierarchy but by the favor of God. This uniqueness precedes the Fall. Satan took advantage of this uniqueness in the Garden seeing that Adam was already starting to fail in his position as head. Like with the body, people often glorify the major parts, not realizing that the lesser parts are just as important. They are not “lesser” just as women are not lesser; they are merely different and serve different functions, but each function has its own glory, not hierarchically but uniquely and equally favored by God. Random fact: ever heard the phrase-“I feel it in my gut?” That phrase came from people’s belief that the heart was in the stomach. Science emerged and showed us that the heart is in our chests. Does this make the stomach less important for the body? No... the stomach is still glorious in its own way just as the heart is glorious in its own way. Both were made by God with favor.. who can deny that women are absolutely glorious! More glorious than men in so many ways, but still this is not meant to be perceived hierarchically like some branches of feminism view this or how general chauvinism views it... anyways, I hope I answered your question, and I hope it touches on the deeper questions you might be asking yourself. I pray that you receive the love that God is abundantly pouring out to you today. Cheers!
@@astheskylarksings Ok . . . But may I ask in which areas women are called by God that are exclusive to them the way God calls men exclusively for leadership and authority? Because none come to mind. Most people say childbirth but what about infertile women? Not to mention that without men, pregnancy is impossible.
Jade Lee Not “okay...” actually. We both understand what “okay” means in the context you used it. It means whatever I say or however I answer, if it does not fit your agenda, it will not appease you. Not “okay....” You should have typed “amen.” To be a woman is a gift just as to be a man. All that is associated with being a man or a woman comes with the gift. That’s “amen,” not “ok...”
Women are called to service and they excel at it exponentially better than men. Service IS leadership, more than you realize I guess based on your response. Service is equally important to ministry, and in some regards, more important. Yup, some women are infertile or don’t want babies. Some men are impotent or don’t want babies. Some men want to be in ministry, but most don’t. That is not about difference as much as it is simply about personal choice, calling, and/or the hand that a person is dealt. What are men blocked from? Virtually nothing, but this doesn’t make it “unfair.” They are parts of being a woman than men can never experience. That doesn’t make women more privileged either. Each is blessed in their own ways.
My church has no women Elders, no female pastors, but they do have many (maybe more than 50%) women teaching Adult Bible classes where both men and women attend. I always wondered about this. I myself, female, taught a mixed Bible class for ten years. We have a ton of Bible classes ( large church) and perhaps more women are available and interested than men. Our senior pastor’s wife (she is now deceased) taught several times each weekend. When I asked about it, the answer was “all Bible class teachers are under the authority of the senior pastor.”
No. If elders supersede scripture then we have Roman Catholicism all over again, and we know how that went.
One thing that should be noted here that John Piper didn't touch on like he should have was that the eve was deceived and Adam was NOT. If you read Genesis 3 you will see the devil ask eve a logical question and eve gave a logical answer that fruit will cause them to DIE which is catastrophically bad and she understood that. Now the devil set her up with logic then turned and enticed Eve through emotions and the bible said that Eve saw the fruit as GOOD! It uses words that derive from emotions pleasant to the eye...tree to be desired.
Romans 10:9-10 (KJV)
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
How does this reading account for the several female prophetesses in the old and new Testaments, who spoke authoritatively over men, even apostles?
curious -- which prophetess spoke authoritatively over an apostle?
Chris Hall Acts 21 8 Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. 9 He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied.
Paul stays in the house of 4 women who prophesied... I don't know who else they could have been prophesing to. A plain reading of the text implies Paul and his companions.
The only other possible options I can think of is that you don't think prophecy is authoritative.
Light? prophetic utterance is equal to speaking forth the scripture. That is not the same function as governing the church and teaching doctrine.
There is often a confusion between big P prophecy and little P prophecying but even then, the apostle Paul ignored the prophetic warning not to go to Rome.
Light?
We are told that the daughters prophesied. We are not told when they prophesied. We're told that Philip was an evangelist... does that mean that he preached the gospel to Paul when he came? Also, the only recorded prophecy from the passage came from Agabus, not the women. Finally, there is no command given against going to Jerusalem, only a prediction of what will happen when Paul arrives there.
Why so many dare to question my master?
Do we all believe in one Lord?
Do we have same Bible?
We live in a strange time where women hate the role the Bible assigns to them. I always loved the submission verses, but that's perhaps because I had a strict dominant father and a more submissive mother. It just feels natural and fits like a glove. My husband also loves the male role in the Bible, even though he's not a believer. Actually our personalities are such that I take charge and he goes with the flow, but we both want to reverse that unpleasant dynamic and when we manage it, it feels wonderful!
It's because women have been hurt by this verse. Quite a few men use this verses to dominate and control.
Believe me if I heard this us MY, HOUSE, MY CASTLE, MY, MY, MY ,MY way , I have to have my way. once I heard it a billion times.
This has been used to control and hurt and put down. Count yourself one if the lucky ones who wasnt damaged by misinformation.
For example my ex. Comes in from a strip club. left all the responsibility of the children to me after working all day with a migraine. Well he comes in broke around 3 or 4 in the morning demanding I have sex with him..... because he is the man and he is my authority and I cant say no. ( yes the majority have been taught to act like that)
I thought he was a hood man, he knew my stance on God and drinking. Dated him for 4 years, everybody LOVED him, he was nice polite and treated me well. The day I married him he laughed and told me he drank, went to strip clubs etc .... and you dont believe in divorce. He said .
He put me through hell then divorced me. Tes there are good men ,there are good women but submission means EXTREME vulnerability , we also live in a world where the string hurts the weak, and the ones in authority looks at their wives as less.
Yeah you are one of the rare lucky ones.
If Paul meant that ALL women were to be kept quiet in church and not just a certain group of people then why would he accept that 1. Pricsilla taught Apollos 2. Pheobe was sent by Paul to deliver the letter Romans to the church in Rome, to deliver a letter one would read it publically to a mix gender group and teach from it so the church could understand. 3. Why is 8/10 times Priscilla and Aquilla mentioned its Priscilla first but the only 2 times the married team is mentioned its Aquilla then Priscilla because Aquilla was the head of his home but Priscilla was the head of their ministry. Finally 4. The problem with the verse as well as the Elder Deacon qualifications verses is that they are not read in cultural contex with proper hermanuetics. If one did read these verse the way the first century church would have, then they would see/understand that what Paul was writing was a practice for a select group of people (the church in Ephesus) vs. a principle for the whole church to follow. One could argue that the same prohibitions against braided hair and pearls should be avoided as well since in the same breath Paul states women in that church are not permitted to teach ir usurp authority over a man (typically their husband) because Adam was formed first and then Eve the man is the head of his wife.
Paul's words to the church of Ephesus and Corinth was to address the New Woman movement where aristocratic women were trying to dominate men in their homes. Community and in the church. Paul is addressing this issue with a practice to be applied to the people, but he does not hold to that Principle with Priscilla, Junia, Pheobe and other female fellow church servants.
I believe the Holy Spirit is poured out on all flesh in the church age and just like Galatians states there is no male female, slave or free for we are one in Christ Jesus. We are equal by the pouring out of The Holy Spirit upon us. I am within Biblical Rights to preach/teach and be a Pastor over amd with men, because we're equal servants in the kingdom with different spiritual giftings 1 Corinthians 12.
For anyone who is a feminist advocate or anyone who claims that God said women are to be preaching in the church:
The following scriptures easily outweigh any of your scriptures which you cherry pick, scripture mine, and/or manipulate into backing up your personal and modern-day-religion's desires for what you want God to have said, instead of being diligent to read, study, and follow the complete Word of God which makes perfectly clear for how God said there is to be an order to leadership, preaching, etc.
So if God intended women to preach in the church, then why did God only give the specific qualifications that men are to have for the positions in the church and never gave the qualifications for what women are to have if they were to take the positions in the church?
These are the specific scriptures down below that directly pertain to the qualifications necessary for filling the position in a church: Titus 1:4-6 , 1 Timothy 3:10-13 , and 1 Timothy 3:1-5
1 Corinthians 11:1-3 & 8-9
1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.
2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________
1 Timothy 2: 11-14
11 Women should learn quietly and submissively.
12 I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly.
13 For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve.
14 And it was not Adam who was deceived by Satan. The woman was deceived, and sin was the result. ______________________________________________________________________________________________
1 Corinthians 14:34-40
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Titus 2: 1-5
1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed. ________________________________________________________________________________________________ Ephesians 5:22-24
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing. _______________________________________________________________________________________________
1 Peter 3:5-7
5 For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
6 Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.
7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.
________________________________________________________________________________________________
1 Timothy 3:1-5
BISHOPS
1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) ________________________________________________________________________________________________
1 Timothy 3:10-13
DEACONS
10 And let these also first be proved; then let them use the office of a deacon, being found blameless.
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.
12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.
13 For they that have used the office of a deacon well purchase to themselves a good degree, and great boldness in the faith which is in Christ Jesus. ________________________________________________________________________________________________
Titus 1:4-6
ELDERS
4 To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.