Over time, Stan gave way more credit to other writers and artist, but that time during their biggest moments would've been much appreciated, which is a fault on him. Even in their later years, Kirby and Lee mended some bridges, but it never got that far as working together again.
@@MrMaxHauser Stan was actually the one who started the now commonplace practice of crediting the full name of each writer, penciller, inker, letterer and editor at the top or bottom of the first page of each story. He also gave them fun nicknames. A typical credit might read, "Writer - Gregarious Gerry Conway." And then proceed to list all of the other contributors with similar nicknames. Before Stan came along, the creators of the book were not clearly and openly acknowledged and printed on the interior pages (but you might find a signature on the cover). Stan, when he was a writer, wrote all of the dialogue and all of the caption narrations (and there were many captions back in the Silver Age of comics). Um, that's writing, so you should get paid for that. It's true that the artists in the Silver Age should have received more story credits than they did. However, by the Bronze Age, everyone was properly credited in each book. So you might see Plot/Story by one or two persons while the actual writing would usually be credited to just one person. Stan started this type of detailed crediting in each book (and this practice continued to be enforced long after he stopped writing for Marvel).
@@rockabye274 yes because nicknames were more important than actual credit or money. He was also letting the artists come up with the story and the art, while taking the credit and the writer's pay. You can look at comics in the 40s and they had the writer and artist's names on there. Usually signed.
One thing i would love to see is Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko & Co. to appear as playable characters in TT Games LEGO games based in Marvel comics, they did this with Stan in Lego Marvel 1&2 and Lego Avengers, the same applies to DC in Lego Batman 3 Beyond Gotham when they inserted Kevin Smith, Jim Lee, Geoff Johns, Conan O'Brien and Adam West as playable characters in the game, that would be awesome and it would be a very good love letter for all of these people
Stan Lee is a complete asshole who rips off other people's ideas and pretends that it is his own original ideas. The most popular example right now is the fact that the X-Men is a lame and Shameless rip-off of DC's Comics Doom Patrol
Its very clear that Jack Kirby deserves a lot of the credit for creating most of these characters if you've ever read New Gods. But I must admit that Stan's engaging dialogue and narration is what really sets it apart from the rest. It's really a shame that such talented people couldn't get along
Also he gots some more freedom after returning to Marvel and didn't have to work with Lee - he became writer and artist of that runs of Captain America and Black Panther. In this time he also created the Eternals (with which he basically ripped off his own DC-creations, for the second time, after Fantastic Four with Challengers Of The Unknown).
I think the attitude of "Stan Lee was a hack" is one based on the fantastical idea of a single guy making their way in the world based on their own ideas, creating the groundwork for the next generation. This fantasy simply isn't true, in anything except maybe books. You mention Shigeru Miyomoto and while no one would ever say he was a hack, he wasn't the bastion of Nintendo. After Mario 64 he was pretty much a random idea guy, he would outline a concept and have his incredibly talented team design around it. Most media now is incredibly collaborated, a group of talented, driven people come together to make a thing. So to me saying Stan is a Hack is just as disingenuous as saying he was "The man behind Marvel". I guess I'm saying the idea of the auteur, the single creative force behind your favourite stories just isn't true. But they were a creative, driven person in a group of creative driven people.
Nah Stan is a jack comes from people who saw the original comic scripts ( which were all done by jack Kirby), him never creating anything special after ditko and Kirby left ( while Kirby created the new gods, worked on Superman, kamandi, and Ditko created Blue Bettle and the question),
I don't remember who said this, but I remember hearing the quote "Never look up to people. People will always someday disappoint you in one way or another. Look up to what those people stand for, because Ideals are eternal."
True, it’s a bummer to find out stan lee wasn’t the most upstanding guy but one can still choose to look at all the good things he brought, the moral messages, and still find smth worthy of respect & admiration. Ppl are almost always a mix of good and bad qualities so this black-and-white view of idolizing & vilifying ppl feels very simplistic & shallow imo especially with cancel culture trend and the like.
People tend to forget that celebrities, especially ones they idolize, are only human and thus not perfect. It’s disappointing when you make an unfortunate discovery about someone you look up to, but there’s something even more admirable in that they overcame their shortcomings
"Yeah, Magneto being a Holocaust survivor was what I always meant with the character. Really. I'm glad that Chris Claremont finally spoke out my idea in the comics directly."
@@marveldcfan2477 That was literally the most obvious Claremont inclusion ever and Stan Lee was like “yup I did that.” Stan Lee left the book at like issue 12.
I love Stan Lee and it’s a shame he didn’t create as much I thought in comics.He unexpectedly planted the seeds for improvement within the landscape of comics and had a genuine love for comics. RIP Stan Lee T_T
Stan lee was undoubtedly integral to marvel, but it's always upsetting knowing that so many great writers and artists were left in obscurity as a side-effect
@@somerandomidioticnerd9769 agreed. I still like family, but those other items deserve to be remembered for their actual creations. Looks like this one it's up to us, the fans.
Todd Mcfarlene in one of his interview in Syfy told that Stan's long life surpassing his collegues like Don Heck, Kirby, Ditko etc. was one of the key factor why he a alot of fans (especially those who only watch the films) only know him and attributed him as the creator of Marvel. Guys like Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko and others will only be known by those who read the comics.
Jack Kirby really showed a lot about his feelings towards Stan in the Mister Miracle book at dc, creating a whole character based of Stan: funky flashman
I've always felt like Jack Kirby downplayed what Stan did. He even told a story about how they were about to go out of business and stan came "crying" to him and Jack "Took care of it" and made several successful new characters/books. I'm not dissing on Kirby because he was my favorite artist, and I do think that Stan overplayed how much he actually contributed, but i don't thin stan was as bad as someone like Bob Kane. I think the best way to sum up how Stan actually was, is that he might have actually been the first guy to put his name on the cover of all his books. "By Stan Lee". I think that a lot of his "nice guy" personality was part of his cult of personality. It's a persona. All that being said I do have a lot of respect for the guy, he really helped make Super Heroes into part of American culture.
Well.... I love and respect Lee, Kirby, and Ditko. I find the best Kirby work was done with Lee, the best Ditko work also done with Lee....and the best Lee work was done with Kirby or Ditko. So credit? They all deserve credit. But on compensations, Ditko and Kirby were never properly paid for their work, and yes Stan should've used his influence to help them get better compensation.
I agree although I think what did help stans name recognition is the fact that Jack Kirby passed in 1994 before the comic book movie boom kicked in, and Stan and ditto both made it to 2018.
Stan Lee may give himself more credit than he deserves, and that's definitely not good, but at the same time he managed to mostly be a genuinely good person, which is rare with... well, most rich folk. I still respect him big time. RIP
@@diegob798There's no real systemic basis for discrimination against "rich people", & as working class nobodies 99% of the people in the world have no power or leverage against the bourgeoise hegemony in a society organized around capitalist means of production. To point out that most rich people aren't known for being decent people isn't "classist", it's impossible to be "classist" against the ruling minority. They are the rulers. They have the power. It's just pointing out the basic fact that we know far more shitty rich people than we do decent ones. By virtue of their exclusive, insular lifestyle & isolation they are completely separate from the 99%. It's not unfair to point that out, & they suffer no injury as a result of us saying it. Stop simping for the rich. They won't reward you for it.
@@areebhussain321Thanks. & I'm not a Stan Lee hater or whatever, I just think it's cringe that in this day & age people don't understand that Lee did what he had to in order to grow Marvel into what it is today -- which included literally *owning the labor of others* which was work he didn't perform himself -- was _incapable_ of doing, in fact, as he didn't have the talent of Jack Kirby or Bill Everett or Don Heck or Marie Severin or any of those guys/gals, for example -- so that he could extract "profit" from the "surplus value" created by their hours of wage slavery. Stan Lee became a capital-owner by exploiting the writers, editors, artists, etc. Marvel employed for work he couldn't possibly have done himself & reaping as much of the benefit from it that he could. That's it. It's unethical, yeah, & it's morally questionable, of course, but let's not forget that he also employed folks like Jim Shooter -- who took incredible strides towards attaining better rights, workplace conditions, & employment benefits for creators. Which includes full credit for characters & stories they created, even if they weren't/still aren't always *paid* properly when the company capitalizes on the success of those creations. David Aja is one of dozens who has been exploited & had his work recycled & repurposed for the financial enrichment of others, but it's still only a murmuring undercurrent in the wider discussion surrounding workers' rights under capitalism. Anyway no one comes to these videos to read rants from people like me who analyze everything through a critical lens & usually end up at some kinda socio-economic criticism of... Well... Everything that happens in culture 😉 sorry for the digression but I'm glad some folks are on the same page I am when it concerns "classist statements against the rich" (which is just hysterical to me).
Stan is the Marvel Yin to Jim Shooter's Yang. The general public knows Stan Lee's name & face, maybe even his voice - they know the Soapbox stuff, too, which is his legacy. A damn good legacy, at that. But they don't generally know this behind-the-scenes stuff about him *literally holding Jack Kirby's work captive* at all. It's one of the hallmarks of capitalism to "sell" your labor for a wage & in Kirby's case it was definitely done unwillingly. & There's a lesson in that. Not all business owners, landowners/real estate developers, or bankers are _bad people_ per se - it's just that their class interests conflict with the interests of the 99% - of the "regular people", the working class. Their class interests are at odds with ours. Jim Shooter, on the other hand, pushed for writer/artist/creator credits in the work & even had a lot to do with salary increases & protecting Marvel staff healthcare. But most people don't know who he is. Shooter is & always was a friend to the working class, being from the working class himself. It's such a good thing to put videos like this one out & be conscious of the differences in approach from one figure to another in the comic industry. This has been done a lot for figures in the music industry, but for comics not so much.
I find Jim Shooter to be a fascinating guy. According to the video about him by "Comic Tropes", it seems he was a working class man who wanted to increase to quality of life for everyone in the industry, and he also understood consumers and wrote stories that appealed to them. While in charge of Marvel, they were always very profitable, yet he would be released because the people below him hated working for him due to his controlling nature.
Met shooter at a con once and got to listen to him tell a lot of old stories from his time. Dude is a legend with some crazy stories of his own right even to how he got started in the industry.
Stan Lee and Jim Shooter are very similar in that they are both completely justified if you listen to their sides of the story but still have plenty of detractors with beefs both legitimate and not. In terms of the silver age artwork for example at the time it was kept by Marvel in the 60s, it was thought to have no value even by a lot of the artists themselves. It was only following the growth of fan culture that they realized they could sell it for a lot of money to collectors. The companies (both Marvel and DC) then used its return as leverage to get them to sign away their rights. At the time of the Kirby art debacle Stan was not as involved with the day to day running of the publishing company and it was the owner's ultimate decision, not necessarily his. In the case of Shooter, he does indeed deserve credit for getting a royalty structure in place for creators however he, by his own admission, used some pretty underhanded tactics to get the freelancers to sign away rights to characters after the fact. He also fought against Neal Adams' attempt to form a comic union, though to be fair some of their demands were ridiculous. Ultimately the EiC position is management and management positions at large corporations will always involve being a bad guy at times.
Stan is great and he really was the company face of marvel comics and was always there. It’s just sad that basically nobody else except for occasionally Jack gets as much recognition. And even that Jack and everyone else still needs more. One of my favorite comic creators is John Buscema and like nobody knows who he is. Nobody knows Roy made vision. :(
@@jacksonbrickmedia939 and decided who would do what...he first had Spider-Man drawn by Kirby, but Stan didn't like it, so he gave it to Ditko......Stan had good editorial choices, and he would veto or change ideas from the artists. So his input was vital. The amazing Marvel silver age was a group effort, no one person can given the credit.
I love Buscema! Oh, that original Silver Surfer run!!!! And the forgotten hero of the Avengers: DON HECK! And how many agree with me: Roy Thomas was a better writer than Stan Lee. Roy wasn't a salesmen like Stan, but damn he was a good writer.
Setting aside his achievements as a writer (many of which are dubious), Stan Lee is probably one of the best editors in comics (I'd say second only to Karen Berger). Whatever he did or didn't create, he gave his artists the free reign they needed to create masterpieces of the form but remained involved enough to add a necessary layer of polish (look at Kirby and Ditko's work with and without Stan). Most importantly he did normalize the practice of given credit to not just the pencil artist but also inkers and letterers, even if he only grudgingly and belatedly acknowleged their role as co-creators.
Trial Of The Incredible Hulk also had the first live action appearance of Matt Murdoch who was Banner's lawyer. It was filmed in Vancouver, a couple friends and I skipped school a couple times to watch them film scenes around the downtown area.
Kirby really got shafted by the comics industry. Probably wasnt the only creator to fail to make big money off it, but him and Bill Finger are the biggest names I can think of.
When I hear non comic fans or conservatives say Stan Lee would be rolling I'm his grave because of so and so changes, that right there to me automatically confirms they never understood his ideals to begin with. He was liberal as hell.
He also was a crowd pleaser, so they’d be right in a sense, because if he was pressured enough, he’d agree with them. Like with Gwens death, he gave his consent to kill her off, then immediately sided with the fans and said “I’d never kill Gwen, this isn’t my idea and I’d never be okay with this. Bring her back now!”
@@comixproviderftw_02 his boss at the time didn't want any black characters in comics. So knowing his boss didn't always review the material he had T'Challa unmask at the end of the issue. For the time I'd say it was very progressive.
@@comixproviderftw_02 not luck. Because Black Panther took off and the rest was history. It shouldn't have taken tactics like that to introduce a character.
Oh boy, the comment section is gonna be fun today. P.S. I guess “Stan Lee: The Man Involved with the Creation of Marvel” just doesn’t have the same ring to it.
Legitbait is the *good* kind of clickbait... The vid title baits you into clicking and then is legit and answers what it says it will answer. If the vid title was as the other person suggested; then it wud get less clicks.
Still with the Eternals and Thor Love And Thunder coming out and with Classic Loki turning up in Loki it seems that the MCU are finally going to embrace the style of Kirby
Without mentioning Jack Kirby. DCs recent movies featured a ton of Kirby creations (Darkseid, Parademons, mother boxes, boom tubes, steppenwolf, etc) but you hear nothing about his contribution
Not at all. Kirby had nothing to do with the story Love and Thunder is taken from and the Eternals movie is unrecognisable as the franchise Kirby created.
Yeah it sucks that the studios don't acknowledge Kirby but fans of his work can see the influences and creations of his making their way into the movies little by little. I think its fun to spot these things and to know he is starting to get the recognition he deserves. When I heard Mother Boxes and Boom Tubes and Granny Goodness in the Justice League I was excited to see some of this awesome stuff he invented make its way into new movies.
0:45 "having been rich and famous since his early twenties" - Surely Stan wouldn't have been either of those things until he'd long hit 40 in the early to mid 1960s. Until that point he'd considered leaving comics altogether and his role in them was far from significant.
Yep. That's just a bizarre and idiotic statement at 0:45. This guy is playing fast and loose with the facts throughout this video, but that line in particular is grossly inaccurate. There are Stan Lee videos on YT that are much more balanced and factually verified than this one.
@@rockabye274 that's the thing someone pointed out to me about comic drake that he is very one sided just look at the video he made on amber from invincible for a great example of that
Huh, most of what I knew about Stan came from his autobiography. I really should have figured he would put anything negative about himself in his own book about himself. Thanks for another perspective Drake.
@@nilus2kAs is Abraham Riesman’s book ‘True Believer: The Rise and Fall of Stan Lee’ Which is really a must read if you want an honest but at the same time sympathetic portrayal of Stan.
Damn, "loving to tell stories but hating to write", I feel that so hard. The difference between an editor and a writer is that an editor comes up with the basic outline of a story and touches up bits here and there to make sure there aren't like continuity errors or parts that don't make sense, a writer is is the one who does the actual drafting and how the themes are conveyed. I', an editor, I can worldbuild for days but I can't actually do that flow of sentences and paragraphs that don't feel stilted and awkward. I fuss too much about the wording or the sentence order or who says what line to get anywhere.
The people who say comics aren’t political, aka Anything Marvel are dead wrong, that’s one thing they get wrong about Stan lee, I swear something like that happened a while ago.
One thing I believe Stan said in one of thousands of interviews was that he gave his characters alliterative names so that they'd be easier for him to remember. He even said in an X-Men Evolution DVD extra that he'd constantly forget what Jean Grey's power was and being reminded of her codename didn't help because they gave her the generic moniker of "Marvel Girl". I bring this up, one, because it's amusing but also because I think that when Stan says contradictory things, its often not malicious, I think a lot of the time he just genuinely has a bad memory when it comes to specific details. Though I'm sure in other cases he is trying to get himself over. Also on the Jack Kirby note, I think a lot of more hardcore comic fans have the same issue with Kirby that casual's have with Lee, and that's that they take everything Kirby says as an absolute truth forgetting that he's a human with his own perspectives and biases. Kirby got screwed a lot, it's the nature of the entertainment industry, especially at the time, But his statement on Lee being an "office worker" and that he created everything that made the comics sell rings very much of a bitter man punching up because he knows it wouldn't do any actual harm to Lee. I respect both these men a lot and I think it's unfair on either side to dismiss either's work. And Lee must have been doing something because a lot major character's that Kirby made without him didn't hit the same way as the one's the two did together.
I have doubt on Stan Lee’s “faulty memory” because they are wildly inconsistent with things he said himself said in the past, while Kirby was always consistent with his claims of creator-ship. That’s not to say that everything Kirby said was true and he didn’t misremember things, but Stan consistently changes his story when Marvel and Kirby have a potential legal entanglement. When judging a source as credible, one of the signs is the consistency of the statements, and outside factors which facilitates untruths.
@@Jepze158 You forget that even though Kirby had a faulty memory at times, Stan’s habit of denying Kirby his due goes all the way back to 1947 in his little book ‘The Secret of the Comics’ in which he claimed that his publisher Martin Goodman created Captain America, He didn’t, Joe Simon & Jack Kirby did.
I think that Stan Lee is (in my opinion) a overhyped person in the Marvel comics. Of course he is a really great guy and I like him too, but I think that Jack Kirby should have get more credits. I have made a whole presentation about him and I learned so much about this person. Like Drake said he have created a lot of Marvel characters like The Fantastic Four, the X-Men, Captain America, Iron Man… and much more. He was back in the time one of the fastest and best drawers who have created tons of worlds and stories with the love of details and dynamic (even the inker where to „bad“ to ink his drawing). I would love to see a video about Jack Kirby. He should get more attention
I would argue that there's a difference between dragging Stan Lee's name down and what Drake was doing. Drake was trying to ground the man, because putting anyone on a pedestal is always a bad idea. It's important to remember that Stan Lee was a flawed man in order to truly appreciate what he did right. Drake clearly made an effort to emphasize that he still believed Stan was a good man in spite of his flaws.
I am so so so sick of the "Stan Lee Truther" who says that all Stan did was steal credit and showboat. I was afraid that was what the video was going to be, but I've liked Drake's content before and he's seemed like the kind of guy who's smarter than that so I decided to give the video a chance. Very sorry for the long post, but, I'm a passionate Stan Lee fan. First point, Stan wasn't "rich" like you might think. By the time of the MCU his only money-making came in the form of con appearances and what Marvel Studios paid him for the cameos. Marvel NOTORIOUSLY screws over all it's creators on royalties and Stan was no exception. He wasn't hurting for money or middle-class like that, but people assume he must've been a multi-millionaire or the like (in fact this assumption is part of why he was targeted for elder abuse.) But the truth is he was nowhere near that kind of rich. JC Lee, his daughter once commented that Stan's net worth was $50 Million but they had no idea how that number was calculated because they didn't have anywhere near that amount of money. (JC Lee right now is apparently in a legal battle with the Chinese co-owners of her father's last company POW! Entertainment.) Aaaaand there we get to it. Jack Kirby and the debate about who did what creatively. Here's my issue, why should we believe Jack Kirby? The problem with this debate is barely any paperwork from the era is left, The Marvel Method that allowed Marvel to turn out the work it did also didn't leave much of a paper trail, most of the "development" process of creating the original ideas was done over the phone or in person. And 90% of quotes from Kirby that are demeaning/devaluing of Stan's contributions come VERY late in Kirby's life. After he had married Roz Kirby and Roz was.... let's say disappointed to learn Kirby was not actually that wealthy because of, again, Marvel's shitty record with paying creatives royalties for their work. So Roz (allegedly) pushed Kirby to pursue royalties that (she) he thought (she) he was owed, and that caused Kirby to bump heads with Marvel's eternal spokesman Stan Lee. "Why did Stan Lee stop having famous creations after Jack Kirby left?" Because at the same time Jack left, Stan was taking on more administrative duties. He wasn't as involved with each individual comic's development, while Kirby stayed 'down in the trenches' more or less. Also because Stan and Jack were a collaboration, why does everyone call out post-Jack Stan, but gives Jack's work post-Stan a free pass? Kirby was always obsessed with writing Gods and Godly characters, but it was only during that collaboration with Stan that those Gods had a sense of humility, humanity, and mortality. There's a reason everyone has heard of and loves Marvel's Thor, but only die-hard comic nerds really care about New Gods. Not saying New Gods or Kirby's post-Stan work is bad, just that it's noticeably different and I'm tired of people pretending it's not. Aaaah, Stan's Soapbox. What more proof do you need that Stan WASN'T just a huckster. Stan was an incredible person and worked to ensure Superheroes weren't just mindless entertainment, that heroes were moral and actually stood for something important. "Stan Lee downplayed his collaborators." When? Where? Show me. Give me the soundbite, give me the interview. Stan ALWAYS called himself "Co-Creator," never sole (Unlike Jack and Steve.) Stan was no saint, he was a man, he had flaws and warts but Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, and others weren't saints either. They were notoriously stand-off-ish and difficult to work with. And I'm sick of their words being presented as somehow inherently more truthful than Stan's. Case in point, that not a lot of people mention, Jack Kirby once claimed he created SPIDER-MAN. Glad you mention Stan's departure from Marvel, not a lot of people know about it. Stan was dicked around by Marvel editorial just like every other creator from that time (and sadly dicking around creators is pretty much still Marvel's policy,) during Stan's actual time at Marvel he built himself into a brand, one trusted by the readers and fans. And after he left Marvel was more than happy to continue to use (and abuse) that brand.
You sir are one of the smartest people in this comments section comment me back because I might have some information for you that supports your statement because there is fuckin proof that Stan helped co-created the fantastic 4 x-men Thor and iron man we aren't bringing Spiderman and daredevil because there is evidence that Stan created them write back and we can discuss
Sadly, with how much Stan Lee is integrated into pop culture, he gets a lot of praise that really should be going to others by the general public. Its understandable since Stan Lee did play a part in creating a lot of the characters we love, but a lot of people act like he was the only one who was creating these characters like Daredevil or Spiderman when he was only one of many people that came together to create the characters we love or even gets credit for characters he didn't create like Deadpool. Stan Lee was an incredible person, but i do wish people like Jack Kirby and Wally Wood got more credit from the general public
Stan was the face of Marvel, but Jack Kirby was its soul. Don't get me wrong I do respect Stan Lee as he always had Marvel's back, regardless of how crappy things were and he kept the ship sailing as much as he could. However, Jack Kirby and many of the other artists, Big John Buscema, Romita, Ditko, Romita Jr, Al Buscema, Steranko, and many others contribute to the stable of Marvel heroes. But Kirby was the machine, not only for Marvel but for DC and many other comic book companies and even toy companies (Mattel and Hasbro come to mind) and animation. Anyway, nice vid, keep up the great work!
6:06 "Extremely Busy" is underselling it. Stan Lee was the credited writer for *every* comic Marvel released from, bare minimum, August 1961 to when they hired Roy Thomas *years* later. ven if his sole contribution, story-wise, was a general plot and the final script he was coming up with 20-30 ideas a month and writing the same amount of final scripts a month.
This video is amazing every video of Stan lee on the internet depicts him as a god who could do no wrong or the devil himself who stole all of his heroes from other writers/artists this video though is perfect Stan was a great and very great guy but he made mistakes he’s only human so thank you for a true depiction of Stan the man
Your video shows one of the biggest things people get wrong about Stan Lee. Stan was not in a position to get more money for Jack Kirby or anyone else. People confuse Lee's role with the role of Martin Goodman.
THANK YOU FOR DISMISSING THE MYTH THAT STAN CREATED MARVEL! Throughout my life I heard so many kids and some adults say “Stan Lee created marvel” And I thought it was so stupid because Marvel characters where there before he even started working with them But now it’s cleared out so I’m glad I have something to show people when they say “StAN leE cREatEd MaRVEl”
I like to think and hope that he was a great guy, but I'll never truly know... There have been quite a few people(like Kirby) that had bad experiences with Stan, but I'm not on the bandwagon that just condemns him as a completely terrible person. I think it's dumb to cancel every person in history who was "a terrible person" because in truth we'd cancel everyone. I'm just grateful for the good he did in his life
@@Mirrorcomics24 yes, people are the product of their environment and so whatever they did may have been acceptable at that time.... Like cancelling Dr. Seuss If you judge past figures by present standards, no one will be liked, everyone, even you and me will be seen as bad people!!!
Stan was a complicated person. People who idolize him need to realize he was a guy like the rest of us, and he did a fair amount of stuff that wasn’t cool. However, the people that loath him (outside of those like Kirby, who probably have reason too), also need to realize that just because someone did something not good, that doesn’t negate all the good they did do. Human beings have a lot of highs and lows in life. Stan may not have been an amazing person, but I think there’s still a reason people admire him. It’s possible to do that while acknowledging someone’s faults. It’s like a less bad Walt Disney situation. It’s possible to respect and treasure what Walt was able to accomplish with his creative mind and bountiful imagination, while still recognizing the anti-Semitic , anti-union, sort-of-god-complex parts of him.
One thing about this video that I find troubling, you mention that Kirby and Simon were Moonlighting at National Comics, but omit the reason why they did that. Martin Goodman didn’t give them their fair share of the profits for Captain America so of course they would leave. Also, Jack Kirby thought that Stan Lee ratted him out, but he’s just one of the suspects, along with potentially other workers at National, so you shouldn’t say that with conviction. However, Stan Lee did write an editorial that claimed that Martin Goodman was the creator behind Captain America in 1947. I forget the the name but it was something like “the secrets behind the comics.” For more information about Marvel authorship I recommend reading Twomorrows’ Stuff Said from the Jack Kirby Collection. They don’t give a conclusion on who is spouting falsehoods, which is frustrating because the evidence is clearly in Kirby’s favor, but it does give the details and lays out the evidence. Also Check out the Kirby Effect blog which publishes article on Kirby.
How about a video about the "Just Imagine" series? Stan Lee writing a Batman origin story and reimagining DC super heros seems like a perfect video. I'm sure many folks wouldn't even know it was a thing! I know I'd like to learn more about how he remixed the characters.
Great video! :) I knew some of this stuff, but definitely did "learn a little something new" as well. That said, one minor nitpick: That's not how to pronounce "emeritus." The middle part is pronounced the same as the word "merit," so E-merit-us. Understandable mistake, I wouldn't be surprised if you've never heard it said aloud. It's not exactly frequently used, as far as I know. Fun fact: You can tell from the title itself that "Chairman Emeritus" is just an honorary position, because the term "emeritus" refers to someone who has retired from their job, but was allowed to keep their job title as an honor :)
@@ComicDrake Oho, so you still remember me from back when we knew each-other, too? Neat! Yep, I've been watching your videos all this time, haven't stopped since even before you were Trailer Drake :) Before posting, I quickly Googled just in case I was the one who was pronouncing it wrong, so you can trust that I wasn't :P
@@ComicDrake Well, if it helps, I don't have a very robust memory, and have maintained a parasocial awareness of you through your videos all this time, so I remember your current self far more than I do the you from when we used to directly interact :P (Plus I was pretty cringey back then too, without teen age as an excuse xD)
Please make the Jack Kirby video. He deserves retribution. Especially because he died the youngest out of the notorious few without any respect to his name. While Stan and Ditko only died a few years ago.
Stan Lee wasn't perfect, no one really is. It's a sad realization to come to but it's the most realistic one...however Stan Lee really did have a big impact in the world of pop culture, and for that I think he will always be remembered. Excelsior!
It’s good to learn Kirby did the heavy lifting. Still, Stan Lee was a very inspirational and good-hearted man, I won’t let his flaws change that for me. R.I.P, and thanks for the watch as always Drake!
All I know is that when I was 10 years old in 1967, I wanted to meet Stan and Jack. Its easy to say Stan took credit for everything, but I didn't know a single creator at DC and I knew everyone at Marvel.
I think acknowledging this is just history. It's not disrespect at all. You can love Stan Lee and talk about his issues.... A lot of people get mad when you mention this, but I think it's pretty important
We have a very bad habit of contributing a ton of brilliant stuff to a single genius-Stan Lee, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerburg, Shigeru Miyamoto, Walt Disney, George Lucas, etc-when none of them could have done it purely on their own. We mythologize certain public figures in ways that not only are harmful in the way of putting them on pedestals, but also in ways that make their accomplishments seem unattainable for anyone but them all on their own. This feeds into an unhealthy cycle that devalues anyone without the platform these people have and prevents newcomers from being given a chance to be just as great. Yes these people are geniuses but it’s time to stop pretending they didn’t need other people to help make their legacies what they are and that they’re somehow better than the rest of us
I was and am a big fan of the Kirby and Lee relationship. neither was perfect. I think one of the greatest tragedies in comics will be that I don't think Stan and Jack ever really appreciated each other. Jack coming up with all the great characters and concepts and Stan humanizing his characters. Jack created the Thing, and hulk, and Stan gave us Ben Grimm and Bruce Banner
Stan Lee passed away the day I got out of the hospital and I saw the notification on my moms phone as I was leaving. The first time I looked at a phone in a whole week the first thing I saw was that he passed :(
Stan Lee was no saint. He had a good heart and did some good but he also kinda messed up a lot of people whether intentionally or not. Either way it is sad that he is gone. Sidenote. I remember that time he made Stripperella and than appeared on a Reality TV show where he said a hero can't be an exotic dancer while sitting in front of a portrait of Stripperella on a pole. Damn Stan
8:01 "It's not about hating the guy on the other side because someone told you to. I mean, you should hate someone because they're an asshole, or a pervert, or snob, or they're lazy, or arrogant or an idiot or know-it-all. Those are reasons to dislike somebody. You don't hate a person because someone told you to. You have to learn to despise people on a personal level. Not because they're red, or because they're blue, but because ya know them, and you see them every single day. And you can't stand them, because they're a complete and total fucking douchebag." - Leonard J Church.... 's Alpha AI fragment. Because webseries.
The last few years of Stan’s life make me immeasurably sad. I would attend cons once or twice a year, and the fact that Stan was at damn near every one of them never felt right to me. Sure enough, my senses didn’t fail me, and he was being manipulated and abused. Wish more people knew about this, as it didn’t get the media coverage it should have.
I'll point out two things here you really didn't address in the video that is Marvel comic book company hires artist to draw the superheroes that is owned by the company it's called hired work artist. The second thing is that Stan did his best to keep artist working and really didn't go around firing the artist. plus you make it sound that the artist were working for slave wages, well at the time of Jack Kirby's passing his net worth was $10 million, that's way more money than I got.
he passed away before the convention i was gonna see him at, but from everything i’ve heard and read he was a really sweet guy. spider-man is my inspiration and i’m grateful for stan and jack kirby’s work everyday
Fun Fact: If former Fox Kids president, Margaret Loesch, showrunner Eric Lewald, & the entire creative team behind X-Men the Animated Series didn't fight tooth & nail & were forced to go with the version of the X-Men Stan insisted upon, we would've never gotten the CLASSIC, gamechanging '92 series we all know & love.
Wow, this was very informative and really puts perspective as to the behind the scenes within the comic industry. It’s kinda upsetting to know what happened to Jack Kirby regarding his claims to the characters. I would like to get some more videos that go behind the scenes of the comic media.
when people say that stan has been in every marvel movie they are really saying he’s been in every MCU movie. because to them they are the only marvel movies. trust me, 99% of so called “marvel fans” have never heard of Blade. much less even know that he has multiple movies.
![Does Ironheart Suck? [Riri Williams]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/N1PBPBshXfQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![Does Ironheart Suck? [Riri Williams]](/img/tr.png)
Over time, Stan gave way more credit to other writers and artist, but that time during their biggest moments would've been much appreciated, which is a fault on him. Even in their later years, Kirby and Lee mended some bridges, but it never got that far as working together again.
At least Stan Lee acknowledged his collaborators. Unlike Bob Kane who only acknowledged Bill Finger once, after he'd already been dead for 15 years
@@MrMaxHauser exactly
@@MrMaxHauser Stan was actually the one who started the now commonplace practice of crediting the full name of each writer, penciller, inker, letterer and editor at the top or bottom of the first page of each story. He also gave them fun nicknames. A typical credit might read, "Writer - Gregarious Gerry Conway." And then proceed to list all of the other contributors with similar nicknames. Before Stan came along, the creators of the book were not clearly and openly acknowledged and printed on the interior pages (but you might find a signature on the cover). Stan, when he was a writer, wrote all of the dialogue and all of the caption narrations (and there were many captions back in the Silver Age of comics). Um, that's writing, so you should get paid for that. It's true that the artists in the Silver Age should have received more story credits than they did. However, by the Bronze Age, everyone was properly credited in each book. So you might see Plot/Story by one or two persons while the actual writing would usually be credited to just one person. Stan started this type of detailed crediting in each book (and this practice continued to be enforced long after he stopped writing for Marvel).
@@rockabye274 yes because nicknames were more important than actual credit or money. He was also letting the artists come up with the story and the art, while taking the credit and the writer's pay. You can look at comics in the 40s and they had the writer and artist's names on there. Usually signed.
@@DM-sy4hg , not exactly the ghostwriters or artists never got credit at least stan did that
Jack Kirby deserved the same recognition as Lee. Same with Ditko and all of the others.
Agreed.It's a shame these two doesn't get their recognition.
Yeh,The other guys is being overshadowed by Stan
(No offence to Stan in any way)
I love Stan so much,but I think he is being overloved
I mean Jack Kirby is still known as the king of comics
One thing i would love to see is Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko & Co. to appear as playable characters in TT Games LEGO games based in Marvel comics, they did this with Stan in Lego Marvel 1&2 and Lego Avengers, the same applies to DC in Lego Batman 3 Beyond Gotham when they inserted Kevin Smith, Jim Lee, Geoff Johns, Conan O'Brien and Adam West as playable characters in the game, that would be awesome and it would be a very good love letter for all of these people
Agreed all 3 deserved the same recognition in my eyes
Met Stan Lee at a comic book convention. He’s a great guy, only got a couple of minutes with him though, that’s the sad thing about it.
Stan Lee is a complete asshole who rips off other people's ideas and pretends that it is his own original ideas.
The most popular example right now is the fact that the X-Men is a lame and Shameless rip-off of DC's Comics Doom Patrol
@@teenagemoonknightproductio7358 this comment is wrong on so many
Levels
@@teenagemoonknightproductio7358 no
R/thathappened
@@teenagemoonknightproductio7358 they
Its very clear that Jack Kirby deserves a lot of the credit for creating most of these characters if you've ever read New Gods. But I must admit that Stan's engaging dialogue and narration is what really sets it apart from the rest. It's really a shame that such talented people couldn't get along
Tbf Kirby had an awesome thing going. He revolutionised marvel, understandably got annoyed and left and then made something iconic for DC too.
Jack Kirby deserves just as much respect as Stan Lee, but he doesn't.
Also he gots some more freedom after returning to Marvel and didn't have to work with Lee - he became writer and artist of that runs of Captain America and Black Panther. In this time he also created the Eternals (with which he basically ripped off his own DC-creations, for the second time, after Fantastic Four with Challengers Of The Unknown).
@@Nadie47 he deserves more
@@kaisteven5907 Awesome to the fans but backdoors the man was not getting the recognition he deserved from the vampires that employed him.
I think the attitude of "Stan Lee was a hack" is one based on the fantastical idea of a single guy making their way in the world based on their own ideas, creating the groundwork for the next generation.
This fantasy simply isn't true, in anything except maybe books. You mention Shigeru Miyomoto and while no one would ever say he was a hack, he wasn't the bastion of Nintendo. After Mario 64 he was pretty much a random idea guy, he would outline a concept and have his incredibly talented team design around it.
Most media now is incredibly collaborated, a group of talented, driven people come together to make a thing. So to me saying Stan is a Hack is just as disingenuous as saying he was "The man behind Marvel". I guess I'm saying the idea of the auteur, the single creative force behind your favourite stories just isn't true. But they were a creative, driven person in a group of creative driven people.
The hack title belongs to Bob Kane
It takes more than one strand of silk to make a web
I like how you didn’t even mention The fact that Stan called you a bigot lol
Nah Stan is a jack comes from people who saw the original comic scripts ( which were all done by jack Kirby), him never creating anything special after ditko and Kirby left ( while Kirby created the new gods, worked on Superman, kamandi, and Ditko created Blue Bettle and the question),
@@comixproviderftw_02 Bob Kane screwed on Person, Stan Lee screwed many people
I don't remember who said this, but I remember hearing the quote "Never look up to people. People will always someday disappoint you in one way or another. Look up to what those people stand for, because Ideals are eternal."
True, it’s a bummer to find out stan lee wasn’t the most upstanding guy but one can still choose to look at all the good things he brought, the moral messages, and still find smth worthy of respect & admiration. Ppl are almost always a mix of good and bad qualities so this black-and-white view of idolizing & vilifying ppl feels very simplistic & shallow imo especially with cancel culture trend and the like.
He may not have been a perfect guy but he seemed to try
People tend to forget that celebrities, especially ones they idolize, are only human and thus not perfect. It’s disappointing when you make an unfortunate discovery about someone you look up to, but there’s something even more admirable in that they overcame their shortcomings
Stan Lee be like “oh that Chris Claremont X-Men comic? Yeah I wrote that”
In all seriousness he’s a funny dude and super influential
“What’s a Hellfire Club?”
"Unless you didn't like that one, then I never heard of it."
"Yeah, Magneto being a Holocaust survivor was what I always meant with the character. Really. I'm glad that Chris Claremont finally spoke out my idea in the comics directly."
@@marveldcfan2477
That was literally the most obvious Claremont inclusion ever and Stan Lee was like “yup I did that.” Stan Lee left the book at like issue 12.
fact: in a gravity falls comic it's stated that grunkle Stan got in a fist fight with Stan Lee in school over who's comic was better
Which episode?
@@timrosswood4259 I don't think comics come in episodes
@@Smashlord3 I meant which episode of Gravity falls.
@@timrosswood4259 the gravity falls comics
@@rossman8919 wait wtf. I just realized it said gravity falls comic. Lmao i'm blind.
I love Stan Lee and it’s a shame he didn’t create as much I thought in comics.He unexpectedly planted the seeds for improvement within the landscape of comics and had a genuine love for comics. RIP Stan Lee T_T
Stan lee was undoubtedly integral to marvel, but it's always upsetting knowing that so many great writers and artists were left in obscurity as a side-effect
@@somerandomidioticnerd9769 agreed. I still like family, but those other items deserve to be remembered for their actual creations.
Looks like this one it's up to us, the fans.
He died a fraud and an unrepentant credit thief
@@somerandomidioticnerd9769 side-effect 50% of the time and overshadowed directly and purposedly the other 50% if Jack Kirby is anything to go by
Todd Mcfarlene in one of his interview in Syfy told that Stan's long life surpassing his collegues like Don Heck, Kirby, Ditko etc. was one of the key factor why he a alot of fans (especially those who only watch the films) only know him and attributed him as the creator of Marvel. Guys like Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko and others will only be known by those who read the comics.
Jack Kirby really showed a lot about his feelings towards Stan in the Mister Miracle book at dc, creating a whole character based of Stan: funky flashman
I've always felt like Jack Kirby downplayed what Stan did. He even told a story about how they were about to go out of business and stan came "crying" to him and Jack "Took care of it" and made several successful new characters/books. I'm not dissing on Kirby because he was my favorite artist, and I do think that Stan overplayed how much he actually contributed, but i don't thin stan was as bad as someone like Bob Kane.
I think the best way to sum up how Stan actually was, is that he might have actually been the first guy to put his name on the cover of all his books. "By Stan Lee". I think that a lot of his "nice guy" personality was part of his cult of personality. It's a persona. All that being said I do have a lot of respect for the guy, he really helped make Super Heroes into part of American culture.
Well....
I love and respect Lee, Kirby, and Ditko. I find the best Kirby work was done with Lee, the best Ditko work also done with Lee....and the best Lee work was done with Kirby or Ditko.
So credit? They all deserve credit.
But on compensations, Ditko and Kirby were never properly paid for their work, and yes Stan should've used his influence to help them get better compensation.
I agree although I think what did help stans name recognition is the fact that Jack Kirby passed in 1994 before the comic book movie boom kicked in, and Stan and ditto both made it to 2018.
The best Kirby work was done with Kirby the Best Ditko work was done with Ditko Fukk Stan Lee he is known as a piece of shit and a liar
Stan Lee may give himself more credit than he deserves, and that's definitely not good, but at the same time he managed to mostly be a genuinely good person, which is rare with... well, most rich folk. I still respect him big time. RIP
I mean he did try to give more credit
That classist comment came out of nowhere but u agree with the rest
@@diegob798There's no real systemic basis for discrimination against "rich people", & as working class nobodies 99% of the people in the world have no power or leverage against the bourgeoise hegemony in a society organized around capitalist means of production.
To point out that most rich people aren't known for being decent people isn't "classist", it's impossible to be "classist" against the ruling minority. They are the rulers. They have the power. It's just pointing out the basic fact that we know far more shitty rich people than we do decent ones.
By virtue of their exclusive, insular lifestyle & isolation they are completely separate from the 99%. It's not unfair to point that out, & they suffer no injury as a result of us saying it.
Stop simping for the rich. They won't reward you for it.
@@Matthew.E.Kelly. Couldn't have made a more perfect reply!
@@areebhussain321Thanks. & I'm not a Stan Lee hater or whatever, I just think it's cringe that in this day & age people don't understand that Lee did what he had to in order to grow Marvel into what it is today -- which included literally *owning the labor of others* which was work he didn't perform himself -- was _incapable_ of doing, in fact, as he didn't have the talent of Jack Kirby or Bill Everett or Don Heck or Marie Severin or any of those guys/gals, for example -- so that he could extract "profit" from the "surplus value" created by their hours of wage slavery.
Stan Lee became a capital-owner by exploiting the writers, editors, artists, etc. Marvel employed for work he couldn't possibly have done himself & reaping as much of the benefit from it that he could. That's it. It's unethical, yeah, & it's morally questionable, of course, but let's not forget that he also employed folks like Jim Shooter -- who took incredible strides towards attaining better rights, workplace conditions, & employment benefits for creators.
Which includes full credit for characters & stories they created, even if they weren't/still aren't always *paid* properly when the company capitalizes on the success of those creations. David Aja is one of dozens who has been exploited & had his work recycled & repurposed for the financial enrichment of others, but it's still only a murmuring undercurrent in the wider discussion surrounding workers' rights under capitalism.
Anyway no one comes to these videos to read rants from people like me who analyze everything through a critical lens & usually end up at some kinda socio-economic criticism of... Well... Everything that happens in culture 😉 sorry for the digression but I'm glad some folks are on the same page I am when it concerns "classist statements against the rich" (which is just hysterical to me).
One common misconception missed is that people believe Stan Lee is dead, but he's still alive in the hearts of many fans.
Like he’s kept frozen with Walt Disney
It’s true, he’s actually taking credit for the blood flowing through my body.
@@nilus2k shut up
No. He's dead. 100%.
@@DM-sy4hg it's a joke.
Stan: I need a good pen name,
A vague voice from the future: "Try Lee, there's a million Lees"
Stan is the Marvel Yin to Jim Shooter's Yang.
The general public knows Stan Lee's name & face, maybe even his voice - they know the Soapbox stuff, too, which is his legacy. A damn good legacy, at that.
But they don't generally know this behind-the-scenes stuff about him *literally holding Jack Kirby's work captive* at all. It's one of the hallmarks of capitalism to "sell" your labor for a wage & in Kirby's case it was definitely done unwillingly. & There's a lesson in that.
Not all business owners, landowners/real estate developers, or bankers are _bad people_ per se - it's just that their class interests conflict with the interests of the 99% - of the "regular people", the working class. Their class interests are at odds with ours.
Jim Shooter, on the other hand, pushed for writer/artist/creator credits in the work & even had a lot to do with salary increases & protecting Marvel staff healthcare. But most people don't know who he is. Shooter is & always was a friend to the working class, being from the working class himself.
It's such a good thing to put videos like this one out & be conscious of the differences in approach from one figure to another in the comic industry. This has been done a lot for figures in the music industry, but for comics not so much.
I find Jim Shooter to be a fascinating guy. According to the video about him by "Comic Tropes", it seems he was a working class man who wanted to increase to quality of life for everyone in the industry, and he also understood consumers and wrote stories that appealed to them. While in charge of Marvel, they were always very profitable, yet he would be released because the people below him hated working for him due to his controlling nature.
@@phabiorulesI loved that video! Comic Tropes does some great work, I watch his channel a lot. Thanks for the comment boosting Big Jim!
Met shooter at a con once and got to listen to him tell a lot of old stories from his time. Dude is a legend with some crazy stories of his own right even to how he got started in the industry.
@@Matthew.E.Kelly. ,It seems that Shooter is another guy along with Kirby and Ditko who doesn't get the recognition that they deserved.
Stan Lee and Jim Shooter are very similar in that they are both completely justified if you listen to their sides of the story but still have plenty of detractors with beefs both legitimate and not.
In terms of the silver age artwork for example at the time it was kept by Marvel in the 60s, it was thought to have no value even by a lot of the artists themselves. It was only following the growth of fan culture that they realized they could sell it for a lot of money to collectors. The companies (both Marvel and DC) then used its return as leverage to get them to sign away their rights. At the time of the Kirby art debacle Stan was not as involved with the day to day running of the publishing company and it was the owner's ultimate decision, not necessarily his.
In the case of Shooter, he does indeed deserve credit for getting a royalty structure in place for creators however he, by his own admission, used some pretty underhanded tactics to get the freelancers to sign away rights to characters after the fact. He also fought against Neal Adams' attempt to form a comic union, though to be fair some of their demands were ridiculous.
Ultimately the EiC position is management and management positions at large corporations will always involve being a bad guy at times.
Stan is great and he really was the company face of marvel comics and was always there. It’s just sad that basically nobody else except for occasionally Jack gets as much recognition. And even that Jack and everyone else still needs more. One of my favorite comic creators is John Buscema and like nobody knows who he is. Nobody knows Roy made vision. :(
Stan just never wanted the fans to hate him.
Jack made the plots. Jack made the art. Stan just did the dialogue.
The stan soapboxes are also great.
@@jacksonbrickmedia939 and decided who would do what...he first had Spider-Man drawn by Kirby, but Stan didn't like it, so he gave it to Ditko......Stan had good editorial choices, and he would veto or change ideas from the artists. So his input was vital. The amazing Marvel silver age was a group effort, no one person can given the credit.
I love Buscema!
Oh, that original Silver Surfer run!!!!
And the forgotten hero of the Avengers: DON HECK!
And how many agree with me: Roy Thomas was a better writer than Stan Lee. Roy wasn't a salesmen like Stan, but damn he was a good writer.
Setting aside his achievements as a writer (many of which are dubious), Stan Lee is probably one of the best editors in comics (I'd say second only to Karen Berger).
Whatever he did or didn't create, he gave his artists the free reign they needed to create masterpieces of the form but remained involved enough to add a necessary layer of polish (look at Kirby and Ditko's work with and without Stan).
Most importantly he did normalize the practice of given credit to not just the pencil artist but also inkers and letterers, even if he only grudgingly and belatedly acknowleged their role as co-creators.
Trial Of The Incredible Hulk also had the first live action appearance of Matt Murdoch who was Banner's lawyer. It was filmed in Vancouver, a couple friends and I skipped school a couple times to watch them film scenes around the downtown area.
Every Stan Lee fan is actually a Jack Kirby fan. They just don't know it.
Every fan of marvel is a fan of Lee,Kirby and Ditko
Every fan of Marvel is a fan of all the artists and writers that currently work there or have worked there
@@Devils_Lair_Comics that isn't what I meant at all
@@DM-sy4hg so? Doesn't make it any less true
@@Devils_Lair_Comics um...yeah...sure...
The biggest comic misconception about Stan is that people think he's an artist.
If that ain't a kick in the head for Jack, I don't know what is
People think he was a writer too lol
he was a writer
Kirby really got shafted by the comics industry. Probably wasnt the only creator to fail to make big money off it, but him and Bill Finger are the biggest names I can think of.
That Ocarina thing at the end was something I genuinely didn't know. Wonder if he ever figured out time travel with it.
When he started working at Timely when he was 15, he’d walk into the artists room blasting his ocarina. Kirby has spoken about how annoying he was
When I hear non comic fans or conservatives say Stan Lee would be rolling I'm his grave because of so and so changes, that right there to me automatically confirms they never understood his ideals to begin with. He was liberal as hell.
He also was a crowd pleaser, so they’d be right in a sense, because if he was pressured enough, he’d agree with them. Like with Gwens death, he gave his consent to kill her off, then immediately sided with the fans and said “I’d never kill Gwen, this isn’t my idea and I’d never be okay with this. Bring her back now!”
“I co-created Black Panther, of course I’m progressive!”
@@comixproviderftw_02 his boss at the time didn't want any black characters in comics. So knowing his boss didn't always review the material he had T'Challa unmask at the end of the issue. For the time I'd say it was very progressive.
@@MasutaMJ That was lucky.
@@comixproviderftw_02 not luck. Because Black Panther took off and the rest was history. It shouldn't have taken tactics like that to introduce a character.
Oh boy, the comment section is gonna be fun today.
P.S. I guess “Stan Lee: The Man Involved with the Creation of Marvel” just doesn’t have the same ring to it.
Vid title is legitbait; ;)
@@SylviaRustyFae no it's not
@@SylviaRustyFae no it's not. He does exactly what he advertises
Legitbait is the *good* kind of clickbait... The vid title baits you into clicking and then is legit and answers what it says it will answer.
If the vid title was as the other person suggested; then it wud get less clicks.
@@SylviaRustyFae that's not how click bait works
let's also celebrate other people other than Stan Lee, recognized their work, and while still respect Stan, we can stop putting him on a pedestal
I was talking about Marvel to someone and they thought that Disney just made up all of the Marvel movies and created every character 😂
"He loved to dream up stories, but he hated to actually write."
Ayo he just like me for real
Still with the Eternals and Thor Love And Thunder coming out and with Classic Loki turning up in Loki it seems that the MCU are finally going to embrace the style of Kirby
Without mentioning Jack Kirby. DCs recent movies featured a ton of Kirby creations (Darkseid, Parademons, mother boxes, boom tubes, steppenwolf, etc) but you hear nothing about his contribution
Not at all. Kirby had nothing to do with the story Love and Thunder is taken from and the Eternals movie is unrecognisable as the franchise Kirby created.
Yeah it sucks that the studios don't acknowledge Kirby but fans of his work can see the influences and creations of his making their way into the movies little by little. I think its fun to spot these things and to know he is starting to get the recognition he deserves. When I heard Mother Boxes and Boom Tubes and Granny Goodness in the Justice League I was excited to see some of this awesome stuff he invented make its way into new movies.
Yeah, also Ragnarok has a lot of unfluence on kirby art work visually, wich i love it.
0:45 "having been rich and famous since his early twenties" - Surely Stan wouldn't have been either of those things until he'd long hit 40 in the early to mid 1960s. Until that point he'd considered leaving comics altogether and his role in them was far from significant.
Yep. That's just a bizarre and idiotic statement at 0:45. This guy is playing fast and loose with the facts throughout this video, but that line in particular is grossly inaccurate. There are Stan Lee videos on YT that are much more balanced and factually verified than this one.
@@rockabye274 that's the thing someone pointed out to me about comic drake that he is very one sided just look at the video he made on amber from invincible for a great example of that
Huh, most of what I knew about Stan came from his autobiography. I really should have figured he would put anything negative about himself in his own book about himself. Thanks for another perspective Drake.
Marvel Comics: The untold story paints Lee in a more realistic light. It’s a good read
@@nilus2kAs is Abraham Riesman’s book
‘True Believer: The Rise and Fall of Stan Lee’
Which is really a must read if you want an honest but at the same time sympathetic portrayal of Stan.
Damn, "loving to tell stories but hating to write", I feel that so hard. The difference between an editor and a writer is that an editor comes up with the basic outline of a story and touches up bits here and there to make sure there aren't like continuity errors or parts that don't make sense, a writer is is the one who does the actual drafting and how the themes are conveyed. I', an editor, I can worldbuild for days but I can't actually do that flow of sentences and paragraphs that don't feel stilted and awkward. I fuss too much about the wording or the sentence order or who says what line to get anywhere.
The people who say comics aren’t political, aka Anything Marvel are dead wrong, that’s one thing they get wrong about Stan lee, I swear something like that happened a while ago.
It's hilarious whenever people say that, the more you look into comic history the more political it gets
People have different opinions of what political is, how did human rights become a political issue?
I'm glad you made this video because there's just so many misconceptions about Stan Lee
One thing I believe Stan said in one of thousands of interviews was that he gave his characters alliterative names so that they'd be easier for him to remember. He even said in an X-Men Evolution DVD extra that he'd constantly forget what Jean Grey's power was and being reminded of her codename didn't help because they gave her the generic moniker of "Marvel Girl". I bring this up, one, because it's amusing but also because I think that when Stan says contradictory things, its often not malicious, I think a lot of the time he just genuinely has a bad memory when it comes to specific details. Though I'm sure in other cases he is trying to get himself over.
Also on the Jack Kirby note, I think a lot of more hardcore comic fans have the same issue with Kirby that casual's have with Lee, and that's that they take everything Kirby says as an absolute truth forgetting that he's a human with his own perspectives and biases. Kirby got screwed a lot, it's the nature of the entertainment industry, especially at the time, But his statement on Lee being an "office worker" and that he created everything that made the comics sell rings very much of a bitter man punching up because he knows it wouldn't do any actual harm to Lee. I respect both these men a lot and I think it's unfair on either side to dismiss either's work. And Lee must have been doing something because a lot major character's that Kirby made without him didn't hit the same way as the one's the two did together.
I have doubt on Stan Lee’s “faulty memory” because they are wildly inconsistent with things he said himself said in the past, while Kirby was always consistent with his claims of creator-ship. That’s not to say that everything Kirby said was true and he didn’t misremember things, but Stan consistently changes his story when Marvel and Kirby have a potential legal entanglement. When judging a source as credible, one of the signs is the consistency of the statements, and outside factors which facilitates untruths.
@@trinityfan9923 You forget that Kirby also exaggerates a lot his stories.
@@Jepze158 You forget that even though Kirby had a faulty memory at times, Stan’s habit of denying Kirby his due goes all the way back to 1947 in his little book ‘The Secret of the Comics’ in which he claimed that his publisher Martin Goodman created Captain America, He didn’t, Joe Simon & Jack Kirby did.
I think that Stan Lee is (in my opinion) a overhyped person in the Marvel comics. Of course he is a really great guy and I like him too, but I think that Jack Kirby should have get more credits. I have made a whole presentation about him and I learned so much about this person. Like Drake said he have created a lot of Marvel characters like The Fantastic Four, the X-Men, Captain America, Iron Man… and much more. He was back in the time one of the fastest and best drawers who have created tons of worlds and stories with the love of details and dynamic (even the inker where to „bad“ to ink his drawing). I would love to see a video about Jack Kirby. He should get more attention
Ah man. Haven't heard anyone talk about Stan since he died. And most was dragging his name down.
Sadly
I would argue that there's a difference between dragging Stan Lee's name down and what Drake was doing. Drake was trying to ground the man, because putting anyone on a pedestal is always a bad idea. It's important to remember that Stan Lee was a flawed man in order to truly appreciate what he did right.
Drake clearly made an effort to emphasize that he still believed Stan was a good man in spite of his flaws.
@@iout stan lee was a good guy but much like the characters he wrote he was flawed
@@Mirrorcomics24 Agreed
I am so so so sick of the "Stan Lee Truther" who says that all Stan did was steal credit and showboat. I was afraid that was what the video was going to be, but I've liked Drake's content before and he's seemed like the kind of guy who's smarter than that so I decided to give the video a chance. Very sorry for the long post, but, I'm a passionate Stan Lee fan.
First point, Stan wasn't "rich" like you might think. By the time of the MCU his only money-making came in the form of con appearances and what Marvel Studios paid him for the cameos. Marvel NOTORIOUSLY screws over all it's creators on royalties and Stan was no exception. He wasn't hurting for money or middle-class like that, but people assume he must've been a multi-millionaire or the like (in fact this assumption is part of why he was targeted for elder abuse.) But the truth is he was nowhere near that kind of rich. JC Lee, his daughter once commented that Stan's net worth was $50 Million but they had no idea how that number was calculated because they didn't have anywhere near that amount of money. (JC Lee right now is apparently in a legal battle with the Chinese co-owners of her father's last company POW! Entertainment.)
Aaaaand there we get to it. Jack Kirby and the debate about who did what creatively. Here's my issue, why should we believe Jack Kirby? The problem with this debate is barely any paperwork from the era is left, The Marvel Method that allowed Marvel to turn out the work it did also didn't leave much of a paper trail, most of the "development" process of creating the original ideas was done over the phone or in person. And 90% of quotes from Kirby that are demeaning/devaluing of Stan's contributions come VERY late in Kirby's life. After he had married Roz Kirby and Roz was.... let's say disappointed to learn Kirby was not actually that wealthy because of, again, Marvel's shitty record with paying creatives royalties for their work. So Roz (allegedly) pushed Kirby to pursue royalties that (she) he thought (she) he was owed, and that caused Kirby to bump heads with Marvel's eternal spokesman Stan Lee.
"Why did Stan Lee stop having famous creations after Jack Kirby left?" Because at the same time Jack left, Stan was taking on more administrative duties. He wasn't as involved with each individual comic's development, while Kirby stayed 'down in the trenches' more or less. Also because Stan and Jack were a collaboration, why does everyone call out post-Jack Stan, but gives Jack's work post-Stan a free pass? Kirby was always obsessed with writing Gods and Godly characters, but it was only during that collaboration with Stan that those Gods had a sense of humility, humanity, and mortality. There's a reason everyone has heard of and loves Marvel's Thor, but only die-hard comic nerds really care about New Gods. Not saying New Gods or Kirby's post-Stan work is bad, just that it's noticeably different and I'm tired of people pretending it's not.
Aaaah, Stan's Soapbox. What more proof do you need that Stan WASN'T just a huckster. Stan was an incredible person and worked to ensure Superheroes weren't just mindless entertainment, that heroes were moral and actually stood for something important.
"Stan Lee downplayed his collaborators." When? Where? Show me. Give me the soundbite, give me the interview. Stan ALWAYS called himself "Co-Creator," never sole (Unlike Jack and Steve.) Stan was no saint, he was a man, he had flaws and warts but Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, and others weren't saints either. They were notoriously stand-off-ish and difficult to work with. And I'm sick of their words being presented as somehow inherently more truthful than Stan's. Case in point, that not a lot of people mention, Jack Kirby once claimed he created SPIDER-MAN.
Glad you mention Stan's departure from Marvel, not a lot of people know about it. Stan was dicked around by Marvel editorial just like every other creator from that time (and sadly dicking around creators is pretty much still Marvel's policy,) during Stan's actual time at Marvel he built himself into a brand, one trusted by the readers and fans. And after he left Marvel was more than happy to continue to use (and abuse) that brand.
You sir are one of the smartest people in this comments section comment me back because I might have some information for you that supports your statement because there is fuckin proof that Stan helped co-created the fantastic 4 x-men Thor and iron man we aren't bringing Spiderman and daredevil because there is evidence that Stan created them write back and we can discuss
Sadly, with how much Stan Lee is integrated into pop culture, he gets a lot of praise that really should be going to others by the general public. Its understandable since Stan Lee did play a part in creating a lot of the characters we love, but a lot of people act like he was the only one who was creating these characters like Daredevil or Spiderman when he was only one of many people that came together to create the characters we love or even gets credit for characters he didn't create like Deadpool. Stan Lee was an incredible person, but i do wish people like Jack Kirby and Wally Wood got more credit from the general public
Stan was the face of Marvel, but Jack Kirby was its soul. Don't get me wrong I do respect Stan Lee as he always had Marvel's back, regardless of how crappy things were and he kept the ship sailing as much as he could. However, Jack Kirby and many of the other artists, Big John Buscema, Romita, Ditko, Romita Jr, Al Buscema, Steranko, and many others contribute to the stable of Marvel heroes. But Kirby was the machine, not only for Marvel but for DC and many other comic book companies and even toy companies (Mattel and Hasbro come to mind) and animation.
Anyway, nice vid, keep up the great work!
Lol, I loved that Jackfilms Reference.
The Stan Lee / Jack Kirby history is super fascinating.
6:06 "Extremely Busy" is underselling it. Stan Lee was the credited writer for *every* comic Marvel released from, bare minimum, August 1961 to when they hired Roy Thomas *years* later.
ven if his sole contribution, story-wise, was a general plot and the final script he was coming up with 20-30 ideas a month and writing the same amount of final scripts a month.
This video is amazing every video of Stan lee on the internet depicts him as a god who could do no wrong or the devil himself who stole all of his heroes from other writers/artists this video though is perfect Stan was a great and very great guy but he made mistakes he’s only human so thank you for a true depiction of Stan the man
Stan Lee is a human being, just like the rest of us. It's important to recognize the good and the bad that he did.
Your video shows one of the biggest things people get wrong about Stan Lee. Stan was not in a position to get more money for Jack Kirby or anyone else. People confuse Lee's role with the role of Martin Goodman.
THANK YOU FOR DISMISSING THE MYTH THAT STAN CREATED MARVEL! Throughout my life I heard so many kids and some adults say “Stan Lee created marvel” And I thought it was so stupid because Marvel characters where there before he even started working with them But now it’s cleared out so I’m glad I have something to show people when they say “StAN leE cREatEd MaRVEl”
Stan Lee created marvel
Stan Lee created Marvel
If he made the company into what it is today, couldn't it be said that he 'made' Marvel?
@@charlescc58 false
@John Cobblepot welp to bad he did
I hope drake can say this the right way compared to others, after everything stan was still a great guy
(as long as you're not Jack Kirby)
I like to think and hope that he was a great guy, but I'll never truly know... There have been quite a few people(like Kirby) that had bad experiences with Stan, but I'm not on the bandwagon that just condemns him as a completely terrible person.
I think it's dumb to cancel every person in history who was "a terrible person" because in truth we'd cancel everyone.
I'm just grateful for the good he did in his life
@@AlienIOIandroktone ?
@@Mapspalo especially if they’re dead
@@Mirrorcomics24 yes, people are the product of their environment and so whatever they did may have been acceptable at that time.... Like cancelling Dr. Seuss
If you judge past figures by present standards, no one will be liked, everyone, even you and me will be seen as bad people!!!
In reality jack Kirby was the one who changed and brought comics to mainstream
Yay Stan Lee in a Comic Drake video!
I will always miss Stan. He brought so much joy to us all and sadness too. He will always be a legend in my eyes.
Stan was a complicated person. People who idolize him need to realize he was a guy like the rest of us, and he did a fair amount of stuff that wasn’t cool. However, the people that loath him (outside of those like Kirby, who probably have reason too), also need to realize that just because someone did something not good, that doesn’t negate all the good they did do. Human beings have a lot of highs and lows in life. Stan may not have been an amazing person, but I think there’s still a reason people admire him. It’s possible to do that while acknowledging someone’s faults. It’s like a less bad Walt Disney situation. It’s possible to respect and treasure what Walt was able to accomplish with his creative mind and bountiful imagination, while still recognizing the anti-Semitic , anti-union, sort-of-god-complex parts of him.
Well said, but there aren't any evidences of Walt being an anti-Semite
Don’t like
Unions
Or new muc
This is a topic that needs to be discussed more often.
One thing about this video that I find troubling, you mention that Kirby and Simon were Moonlighting at National Comics, but omit the reason why they did that. Martin Goodman didn’t give them their fair share of the profits for Captain America so of course they would leave. Also, Jack Kirby thought that Stan Lee ratted him out, but he’s just one of the suspects, along with potentially other workers at National, so you shouldn’t say that with conviction. However, Stan Lee did write an editorial that claimed that Martin Goodman was the creator behind Captain America in 1947. I forget the the name but it was something like “the secrets behind the comics.”
For more information about Marvel authorship I recommend reading Twomorrows’ Stuff Said from the Jack Kirby Collection. They don’t give a conclusion on who is spouting falsehoods, which is frustrating because the evidence is clearly in Kirby’s favor, but it does give the details and lays out the evidence. Also Check out the Kirby Effect blog which publishes article on Kirby.
"He created comics" - Everyone who never read a comic
👍
How about a video about the "Just Imagine" series? Stan Lee writing a Batman origin story and reimagining DC super heros seems like a perfect video. I'm sure many folks wouldn't even know it was a thing! I know I'd like to learn more about how he remixed the characters.
Shame his reimagining was god awful.
Great video! :) I knew some of this stuff, but definitely did "learn a little something new" as well.
That said, one minor nitpick: That's not how to pronounce "emeritus." The middle part is pronounced the same as the word "merit," so E-merit-us. Understandable mistake, I wouldn't be surprised if you've never heard it said aloud. It's not exactly frequently used, as far as I know.
Fun fact: You can tell from the title itself that "Chairman Emeritus" is just an honorary position, because the term "emeritus" refers to someone who has retired from their job, but was allowed to keep their job title as an honor :)
I was just going off of how San pronounced it in an interview. Also, great to see you still in the comments all these years later. :)
@@ComicDrake Oho, so you still remember me from back when we knew each-other, too? Neat! Yep, I've been watching your videos all this time, haven't stopped since even before you were Trailer Drake :)
Before posting, I quickly Googled just in case I was the one who was pronouncing it wrong, so you can trust that I wasn't :P
Of course I remember you, Dodd! I just wish you didn't remember my cringy teenage self. :|
@@ComicDrake Well, if it helps, I don't have a very robust memory, and have maintained a parasocial awareness of you through your videos all this time, so I remember your current self far more than I do the you from when we used to directly interact :P (Plus I was pretty cringey back then too, without teen age as an excuse xD)
Please make the Jack Kirby video. He deserves retribution. Especially because he died the youngest out of the notorious few without any respect to his name. While Stan and Ditko only died a few years ago.
S.T. Anley.... That one is Genious, theres nooo waayy I love this so much
Stan Lee wasn't perfect, no one really is. It's a sad realization to come to but it's the most realistic one...however Stan Lee really did have a big impact in the world of pop culture, and for that I think he will always be remembered. Excelsior!
It’s good to learn Kirby did the heavy lifting. Still, Stan Lee was a very inspirational and good-hearted man, I won’t let his flaws change that for me. R.I.P, and thanks for the watch as always Drake!
I'd love to see you do a deep dive on Stan. You could even do a series of them, and have one for each prominent creator- Stan Lee, Jack Kirby, Etc...
One thing I will say about stan lee is that he was an INCREDIBLE writer, he had an excellent voice and gave each character unique ones as well.
🤣🤣
All I know is that when I was 10 years old in 1967, I wanted to meet Stan and Jack. Its easy to say Stan took credit for everything, but I didn't know a single creator at DC and I knew everyone at Marvel.
I'm questioning the sponsor.
Do a video on Jack Kirby.
I got to meet Stan with my family at a convention all the way back in 2013. Such a nice guy.
There was also that time when Stan Lee worked for DC comics. He created the Just Imagine series as well.
i like that you used that jacksfilms clip at the beginning
I think acknowledging this is just history. It's not disrespect at all. You can love Stan Lee and talk about his issues....
A lot of people get mad when you mention this, but I think it's pretty important
We have a very bad habit of contributing a ton of brilliant stuff to a single genius-Stan Lee, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerburg, Shigeru Miyamoto, Walt Disney, George Lucas, etc-when none of them could have done it purely on their own. We mythologize certain public figures in ways that not only are harmful in the way of putting them on pedestals, but also in ways that make their accomplishments seem unattainable for anyone but them all on their own. This feeds into an unhealthy cycle that devalues anyone without the platform these people have and prevents newcomers from being given a chance to be just as great. Yes these people are geniuses but it’s time to stop pretending they didn’t need other people to help make their legacies what they are and that they’re somehow better than the rest of us
That's a good point
Gates and Zuckerberg ?
LMAOF
Grow up.
I was and am a big fan of the Kirby and Lee relationship. neither was perfect. I think one of the greatest tragedies in comics will be that I don't think Stan and Jack ever really appreciated each other. Jack coming up with all the great characters and concepts and Stan humanizing his characters.
Jack created the Thing, and hulk, and Stan gave us Ben Grimm and Bruce Banner
It's like an adult version of that kid in school that would see you draw something cool then tell the other kids he came up with it 😂
Not enough people are brave enough to take shots at Stan, especially when they have receipts to prove it all. Iconic video!! Keep it up! Much love 💜
I did a school project several years ago and did a deep dive into his life so most of the facts I already knew but some suprised me
R.I.P Stan the man he’s a legend an icon and he will be remembered forever
Stan Lee passed away the day I got out of the hospital and I saw the notification on my moms phone as I was leaving. The first time I looked at a phone in a whole week the first thing I saw was that he passed :(
I love Stan Lee but I feel Steve Ditko and Jack Kirby don't get enough credit from the fans for creating popular characters
Yeah, Stan Lee was definitely a flawed person. But, I think he was overall a pretty good person, though.
Stan Lee was no saint. He had a good heart and did some good but he also kinda messed up a lot of people whether intentionally or not. Either way it is sad that he is gone.
Sidenote. I remember that time he made Stripperella and than appeared on a Reality TV show where he said a hero can't be an exotic dancer while sitting in front of a portrait of Stripperella on a pole. Damn Stan
maybe stripella was a parody
Unrelated fun fact: Ben 10's name is inspiration from Jack Kirby. Benjamin Kirby Tennyson.
No way
@@comixproviderftw_02 yes way
DC’s Trinity Batman,superman and wonder women
Marvel’s trinity Steve,jack and Stan
Great use of the Jacksfilms clip at the beginning.
8:01 "It's not about hating the guy on the other side because someone told you to. I mean, you should hate someone because they're an asshole, or a pervert, or snob, or they're lazy, or arrogant or an idiot or know-it-all. Those are reasons to dislike somebody. You don't hate a person because someone told you to. You have to learn to despise people on a personal level. Not because they're red, or because they're blue, but because ya know them, and you see them every single day. And you can't stand them, because they're a complete and total fucking douchebag." - Leonard J Church.... 's Alpha AI fragment. Because webseries.
The last few years of Stan’s life make me immeasurably sad. I would attend cons once or twice a year, and the fact that Stan was at damn near every one of them never felt right to me. Sure enough, my senses didn’t fail me, and he was being manipulated and abused. Wish more people knew about this, as it didn’t get the media coverage it should have.
I wish I could have met Stan Lee, everyone I know who has said he was a great guy
I'll point out two things here you really didn't address in the video that is Marvel comic book company hires artist to draw the superheroes that is owned by the company it's called hired work artist. The second thing is that Stan did his best to keep artist working and really didn't go around firing the artist. plus you make it sound that the artist were working for slave wages, well at the time of Jack Kirby's passing his net worth was $10 million, that's way more money than I got.
Mr. Stan Lee swimming in my swim trunks "Please sir help me" is what he said to me and then sunk
Love the Jacksfilms clip.
Good on you. It’s annoying to tell people all this, I’ll just link this video from now on. For my final year at middle school I wrote an essay.
he passed away before the convention i was gonna see him at, but from everything i’ve heard and read he was a really sweet guy. spider-man is my inspiration and i’m grateful for stan and jack kirby’s work everyday
There should have been a Jack Kerby tribute in every Marvel movie instead! Thanks for spreading the truth
That Jacksfilms reference was perfect.
I made a school project praising Stan Lee. I’m not sure how I feel anymore 😔.
Fun fact : eel nats is the password cheat code that lets you unlock everything in the Spider-Man ps1 game
Guess they forget the N in Neel
Fun Fact: If former Fox Kids president, Margaret Loesch, showrunner Eric Lewald, & the entire creative team behind X-Men the Animated Series didn't fight tooth & nail & were forced to go with the version of the X-Men Stan insisted upon, we would've never gotten the CLASSIC, gamechanging '92 series we all know & love.
That Jacksfilms clip really got me
Wow, this was very informative and really puts perspective as to the behind the scenes within the comic industry.
It’s kinda upsetting to know what happened to Jack Kirby regarding his claims to the characters.
I would like to get some more videos that go behind the scenes of the comic media.
Keep it up on your work and this channel
when people say that stan has been in every marvel movie they are really saying he’s been in every MCU movie. because to them they are the only marvel movies. trust me, 99% of so called “marvel fans” have never heard of Blade. much less even know that he has multiple movies.