It always felt to me they were trying to make a Joker for Spider-Man, but...we already had that. Goblin was already the "Joker". He was crazy, ruthless, unpredictable but methodical, and most importantly he's deeply personal in a negative way for the hero. Carnage doesnt have this as he's just, "crazy killer".
Carnage makes the most sense when he's treated like a kraken, not really a character, just an awesome monster that can be unleashed when shit gets real
Problem is that gets repetitive. He's just a horror movie villain. After "maximum carnage" where else was there to go with the character? Have him kill the entire world? It just gets ridiculous. He's good for a cheap thrill every couple of years but you can't build an interesting story around him. At least joker has his unpredictability and theatricality. Carnage is just a caricature of a serial killer who's power is basically "MAKE WEAPONS OUT OF BLOOOOOOOOD!!!!!" Seriously, if you were to name the "best spider-man stories of all time" would any carnage story make that list?
IMO Drake, Carnage should be treated less as a character and more as a monster. He's simple and causes destruction. He is really good at giving Peter consequences, and really raising the stakes. He's less of a man than Venom is, which makes him dangerous
Honestly, yeah. If they're not gonna do anything with Cletus' character, just have him be the Doomsday to Peter's Superman: the nigh unstoppable monster that always raises the stakes whenever he shows up
Yeah, I agree as well. I just recently read Mind Bomb, and I was so into him at first. As an artist, he's so visually interesting, and the comic treated him as some horror monster. But then I read something like Spiderman absolute carnage where it gets super complicated, saying Carnage has infected all these heroes, and also Norman Osbourne, and now Norman thinks he's Cletus, and everything fell apart for me. He was much better utilized as a Lovecraftian entity rather than a sussed out villain
I mean... Yeah, he kinda does, and overuse of him is straight up the worst part about him, yet, I do enjoy him as a foil to Venom. I have no real love or hate for him, but yet I can totally get your mindset here, without question.
That's really it, I dislike Carnage because he is both 1 note and overused. It's fine to have a fun over the top 1 note villain, but that character needs to be sparingly used to play to that role. And a 1 note character cannot carry a solo series, despite way to many attempts at Carnage solo titles
Me personally? Even tho hes not my favorite villain, i still see a decent amount of depth in him. Not just from his words but his actions. Absolute carnage and even the TASM2 game explain why he loves killing. Axis shows what lengths carnage is willing to go to, to change, and we see his guilt after the arc ends in how he tries killing nova for knowing him when he cared, and when he wasnt in complete control. I think cletus himself is about control. From what ive read, each time we see him, he is enforcing his will on something. LOSING that control hurts him as he most likely feels the need to always be on top of things. Imo, marvel does a decent job with him in terms of story. Hes not TOO deep but if u look below the surface theres more there.
I like Carnage, I think simple villains are important. Complex villains are great for a lot of stories, but sometimes the best motivation can just be "I wanna slaughter someone and wear their guts like a necklace." There's a lot of messed up people out there that would go crazy if they ever got superpowers, I think Carnage represents that really well.
When design rights and tell right, Carnage is one of the many terrifying characters ever and can be unpredictable because of that motivation alone. Another great character examples like Jigsaw; he put people in death traps, "teaching" them to appreciate and embrace life yet he has a god complex. Or Halloween's Micheal Myers where his original motivation for the killing is nothing, a greater reason why it's random.
@@eddyviews1427 I can see what your trying to say but carnage and jigsaw arent the same type of villain. Jigsaw thinks he is doing the right thing and bettering people, carnage knows he is evil and just wants to kill people. I’d argue jigsaw is more on the complex than not. Micheal myers however fits the bill.
@Rob Mohamedally I like that perspective and I definitely agree on a lot of lvls with this overall. Michel myers is undoubtedly more terrifying to me than carnage on every lvl
I feel like Carnage is a good flat character. While he isn't really much of a character and doesn't change much, he impacts the characters around him whenever he's there
@@donbirkinshaw1630 thing is, Carnage *just* kills that’s all he does, Joker at least does something different, from haha funny clown man to what the ever living f*ck, he joker gassed some fish, he once became an ambassador stopping Batman from fighting him, he beat a child to death with a crowbar and explosives, he raped batgirl after crippling her and made Jim Gordon watch, Joker, unlike Carnage, at least does something different
@@TheSentientDoor well when you put it like that fiar..enouhg just the desicption given here about carnage i figured could easily be applied ot joker as he doesnt really change or have any character goruth either and stays a serial killing pyco so i was wondeing why its ok for him but not carnage..altho i like carnage from the sense of the dude actually kind of scares me..i kind of comarehim to a 80s horror slasher movies monster like jason vorhees and freddy kruger type villains where theirs not much depth to these character but theirs something interesting about them that kept people interested and coming back for multiple installments these characters was populer and theirs not much to them but they are fun and entertaining...people take some interest in them same with carnage...for me hes a horror movie serial killer/monster type character that happens to be a spider-man villain and im fine with that because it course spide-rman to question his own morality and how far he will go in trying to stop people like him that are just to far gone to be redeemed..i dont think every villain needs to be complex and simplicity is ok some times..the problem wiht this tho with canrgae being so simple he proberly shouldnt be over useds as much as he is if his range is so low i still think he has some interesting ideas like how venom is the cracked mirror version of spider-man and carnage is teh crakced mirror veriosn of venom and i kind of like the concept of what if venom was boneded to a serial killer because tis a scary thought and for the most part i thought it was exicuted well and another interesting thing i find si the fact that the symbote is mixed in with his blood stream making him almost impossible to stop and make him some what immortal it seems as long as his blodd is fine the symbiote is fine...i like canrage as a arch nemise to venom because in that regard i think he works but focharacter wiht no much range they proberly shouldnt over use him as much as they do...
@@donbirkinshaw1630 I think it's worthy to note Joker also doesn't just enjoy mindless violence like Carnage does. The killing itself does nothing for him, it's the chaos and psychological damage he can inflict with his violent actions that drive him. Like killing Jason Todd was to scar Batman, torturing Barbra Gordon was to try and psychologically shatter her father, all the abuse he inflicts onto Harley Quinn to mentally fuck with her. Unlike Carnage, who just as an insatiable blood lust. Nothing really wrong with that, they're both pretty similar in the sense they're more uncontrollable forces of nature, I'd just say Carnage's actions are more surface level
@@trashgoblin1182 just like freedy kruger then..hes just a serial killer that gets of on killing kids..not any depth to him and he can also be desribed as 1 note a pychotic seriel killer that goes around killing people with his power in the most brtualt ways possible why lovieng eveyr ssecodn of ti whole alos luaghing and making fun of their misfortune with a dakr sense of humour..canrage and freddy kruger are alot alike just replace the dream deman powers witha symbiote..and most people like freddy kruger as a villain hes doesnt has a pyiloshiphy or any depth or sympathy and both of them seem to have anever ending bloodlust that he inflicts on people in the most brutalits ways possible or torutres them while lauging at them..the only difference between freddy and carnage is the fact that freddy was doing what he was doing out of revenge while carnage is more chaotic and random..but i think that chaoticness and randomness amkes carnage scarier because you cant reason withsome like that..if hes going to kill you hes going to kill you nothign you can say to him is ging to get him to stop..but maye if the villain is kore flesh otuand arnt as insane you coudl possibly walk out of that room alvie if you say the right thigns but iwht carnage theirs now bargining or talking your way out of it if he wants you dead your simply dead and better hope theirs a suuper aroudn to stop him becuase you aint going to be able to..of how chaotic he is he doesnt really have a reason to do what he does..he just does becuase he enjoys it and thats a scary thoguht because people like cletus do exist just minus the symbiote..the randomness makes hiis killing less predictbale..like his frist story his plan was to pick out random names in a phone book and go around and kill that perosn and then moe on to the next random perosn in the phone book to murder next or in maxiumu canrage when carnages evil teammates was startign to get frustrated working with carnage because they doesnt seem tobe a plan or end gool like most villains have and carnage just simply replays their is no plan just chaso..it makes him threaning which is what a villain should be to somethign that powerful and evil and hes doign things without a plan or motive makes him..kind of scary and unhinged...altho their are some storys that tried to explain cletus bloodlust..like appearently..cletus himself is a real coward when it comes to death.and he doesnt want to die one day like all of us will so in his sick and twisted deluions he thinks that if he tips the scales of death in deaths favour and give him..well her loads of scarifces and deaths honuering deah maybe she will let me live because im suplying death with more death which he thinks is what death would want..more death so he hopes that by killing enough people in offering those sacrfice to death that he will magcially be spared of death one day because he trades more deaths for 1 life his..which does sound like somethign a crazy person would come up with..kind of like all those crazy people that commit violent crimes and they say stuff like god told me to do it or something like that..people like this exist and its interesting to know what would happen if a symbiote got on to someone like that..hes not the most fleshed out charatcer and doesnt have much depth..but he does thave some interesitng parts about him and does have a few good story and hes both really scary and kind of fun to watch in a sick joker sense where hes jsut so over the top and out of his mind you just want to know what hes gonna do next and howhe will be defeated and or why or even if their is a why..not every charatcer needs to have multiple layers of depth like an onion some can be simple and carnage is simple and i can understand if people dont like that..but i would not say that carnage is a bad villain tho that is a bad take i think because as a villain he works in what he is surpsoe to be..the monster under your bed..what is a villain really just an evil obsticl in the way of the heros to defeat and canrage fist that..hes scary hes power hes a a big threat level and does villiouns things and has a dark sens ef humour and an over the top crazy facter like joker mixed with freddy krugger and thats not a bad idea for a villain..some villaisn can jsut be unredeemable shit bags of a villain..becuase people like this eixst..not eveyr criminal does things for what they preseive as good reasons..some peopel are jsut fucign nuts and will never change or grow and can never be rredemed based on the thigns tht thye do..and some criminlas/ villaisn can be redeemed and cnargae shows of the other side of that villiouns coing.the side the doesnt chnage or find redemption becuase if you like this ornot people like ths exist and its oddly realistc minsu the alien space parasite thing but is this situaion was to happen id be that it would as theirs alot of fucked up people in this world
Carnage is definitely a simple character, but I think the interesting thing about him is what he does and how other characters interact with them. One of my favorite stories is when Deadpool went after Carnage and used chaos (and his craziness) against him. Deadpool uses that chaos to find and predict what Carnage is going to do. Since Carnage is all about chaos and being unpredictable it infuriates him. Deadpool messes with Carnage so bad it causes him to willing go to jail.
@@KennethMoreland I find it fit since at that point, Carnage is so confused since Deadpool seems to know where he is going to go next, that it mentally breaks him and thinks that going to jail was his choice, and that there is no way Deadpool would expect that
I remember another story where DeadPool fought Carnage and Carnage beat the shit out of DP so bad DP ended up using the Hybrid symbiote to beat him. I can't remember what the name of the comic was, but I do remember seeing Comicstorian's video on it.
I disagree, I think carnage is the perfect foil for the modern anti hero venom we have today. Modern Eddie/Venom are depicted as very humanized and explore the question "what if you gave a man the powers of a God, how would he cope". Carnage and Cassidy in contrast, are the personification of pure evil and destruction, they are a monster, a force of nature, and in the original debut of carnage, a consequence of Venoms actions taking form. Carnage is the embodiment of Venoms past sins that he must face and atone for by beating carnage. However, carnage is overused and is very simple which can leave his character to feel boring.
I remember a while ago I had a dynamic pitch for Carnage. Effectively it was just: same goal, different roads. Basically the symboite is more to the point and is gruesome with killing while Cassidy has more of a “artistic flair” and wants his killings to have more meaning.
With how Cletus acts that doesn't sound far off. I think Cletus being the more artistic and sociopathic side and the symbiote being the more brutal, insane pyschotic side fits. Hopefully writers expand more on Carnage's in depth perspective.
I haven’t read too much into the character of Carnage, but from what I have read, the character is a maniac and entirely crazy, and the idea of what a serial killer would do if he had a symbiote is quite a cool concept, and although he has no morals, I’d like to see a more in-depth look at the character and to have a writer create a philosophy and a reason, like childhood reasons, family, maybe just personal ideals, and I think that would be very good!
I'd agree if they actually made him a proper serial killer. Serial killers don't tend to go on rampages through downtown New York for the fun of it. He's a mass murdering psychopath and not much else typically.
Cletus has been mad since his childhood, he killed animals for curiosity with no remorse. He killed his grandmother by pushing her down some stairs (which abused him btw) Even burned the orphanage where he was. Heck, the very first time he met Brock (both were jailmates) he was already planning to kill him. Brock was saved by the bell, the Venom symbiont showing at last minute to free him. His mother had schizophrenia, and he's a descendant from Courland Kasady who was a serial killer devoted to Knull. He was literally destined/cursed to be a sadist psychopath ever since his birth just because of being a Kasady. Just a few minutes after beinh born he died and had saw Knull. His destiny was to free Knull, he is basically the Anti-Christ from the symbionts PoV. Knull's goal was to extinguish all life and creation, to "end all light in the universe" because he predates it. He's the Lord of the Abyss, and he went apeshit when the Celestials showed out of nowhere and started to fill the void with creation. That's why Carnage is a psycho mass murderer, because chaos is what he is.
But he kinda shapes reality for example there’s some people out there who are just really messed up and they kill animals and people for no reason. Like Michael Myers, the creator of mm didn’t like the remake cuz it gave a reasoning to why he kills which is to off from what he intended the character to be. Like I said before it shapes reality.
3:55 that’s why I love him lol. He’s perfect villain for venom and he’s a good standout against all of Spider-Man’s. And I think it’s the simplicity that makes him fun you could pretty much write him to go up with any hero you want and have any bad guy motivation you want. But I totally see why you think he’s overused marvel has gotta think of more venom villains
Carnage isn't necessarily a deep character, but when he is used well like say Annihilus such as in "Annihilation" I enjoy the character. As being used as a menace, not as a character, though he could have his psyche expanded upon in a mini series. Especially considering Spider Man villains from his inception and even the 90s have grown, but yes a character that is overused becomes tiring. Its how I feel about Thanos now and he has been one of my favourite characters in Marvel since his inception.
To be fair I think marvel movie thanos and comic thanos are different enough that it makes a difference. But I can also understand getting sick of his purple chin if I kept seeing it over and over
@@NeutralGuyDoubleZero Its more how they keep derailing his character development from 2012 onward that bothers me, as the villain had essentially grown and then he now is reduced to being his Death obsessed self that is a space serial killer. Dr. Doom is a good example of growing as a character with his appearances and that is more of what I wanted for Thanos, but its just not the case.
@@Ashguy733 Yeah. The things I've generally seen said about thanos in comics and his storyline was how excessive and poorly tied together they were. Pretty sure he technically resets the universe at multiple points lol
@@NeutralGuyDoubleZero Yes well its Starlin trying to rein in his Thanos vs other authors versions and it got messy, but honestly I really enjoyed the characters development by Starlin, but not only though, Ron Marz and Keith Giffen I think kept the "lone existentialist purveyor of knowledge" Thanos post Infinity War pretty well, he was interesting in Annihilation and Dan Abnett and Andy Lanning used him well in their Marvel cosmic stuff. Its honestly Jason Aaron's Thanos Rising comic and onward where I haven't enjoyed Thanos and that includes Starlin's two post 2013 Thanos Trilogies. He was a pretty interesting villain that now is used because he is popular in culture.
The Lich from Adventure Time is a pretty one track simple character just focused on killing all life nothing else but i still find him such a great character simply cus that's all he wants there's no persuading him or stopping he is just a unstoppable force of nature that always comes back
I feel like the lich and carnage are less of characters, and more like evil entities. They shouldn't have character development because they are so focused on what you can call their "goal", they don't need a real personality.
@Minwon Jang He used to stand out from Spiderman's rogue's gallery but then you got guys like Morlun. All the others had some ideal person they wanted to be and wanted some kind of order and then you had this omnicidal alien that is a partnership away from wiping out the planet for giggles.
The thing that makes the Lich work a lot better than Carnage is how he is presented as a near unstoppable force. He is malice and death given form. He us evil and driven only towards evil. But he is also used very sparingly. While Carnage is used way to often to make use of his 1 note nature. Also Ron Perlman's silky powerful yet articulate voice helps a lot with keeping the Lich feeling dangerous and threatening.
I personally feel that the lack of carnage’s character development and simpleness is the main reason why I love him as a villain, he’s a monster that can’t be reasoned with and he’ll never stop killing and cause chaos. Loved the video.
The AXIS event made Carnage interesting to me character-wise since it emphasized how uneducated and one-note Cletus was. The maniac's a grade school dropout.
You have to look at how a villain serves the narrative that he's in...meaning that you have to take a look at what their purpose in the narrative and how they go about accomplishing whatever their roles needs them to do. Complex villains are typically more interesting, but if they contradict the thematic message of the story, or are put within a story that doesn't isn't suited for their character than it just becomes redundant. Frieza from dragon ball is often considered the best villain in the series despite being a simple character with generic motivations because he perfectly contrast's the simple character and motivations of the main character...which highlights the strength's of Goku as a character and makes for compelling dynamic between the two.
I definitely think complex villains and simple villains are both good. Sometimes you wanna have to think a little, and other times you wanna see someone that is shallow, not redeemable, and easy to hate. Sometimes you want a magneto, others you just want to see Spider-Man or venom punch carnage in his face
An idea I got for Carnage is that maybe in a future incarnation of the character, the symbiote could actually be holding back Cletus from simply turning into a raving animal.
Interesting premise. But if that were the symbiote’s goal, wouldn’t the easiest way to accomplish that just be to…separate from Cletus? I mean, a “normal” serial killer is easier to deal with than a serial killer with shapeshifting ooze powers.
@@rzeitouneh Say that since the symbiote bonded with Cletus’s blood, it can’t separate itself from him without outside interference. And since it’s acting as a serial killer, nobody is willing to perform said interference
@@rzeitouneh Well, lots of reboots of characters do that sort of thing. Besides, it makes more thematic sense for a version of Venom with no morals to be its opposite. Eddie was strung along by the symbiote, but the symbiote has to hold back Cletus from tearing everyone apart.
What I like about this channel is how Drake says his opinion without saying in a way only he is the right and everyone else is wrong, even showing pros and cons.
I always felt like the minority that hated most of the symbiotes and only ever liked Venom, there's just so many symbiotes and it makes Venom feel less special and unique, I much preffered when he was the only symbiote because it had more mystique
I feel the same way about Gamma mutates and how they impact the Hulk's cast of characters, particularly for throwaway characters and issues. Some, like the Abomination and the Leader, I can accept -- or maybe if characters get unique abilities other than Hulk-like super strength (a la Jackie McGee in The Immortal Hulk). But ideas like turning Thunderbolt Ross into Red Hulk and Rick Jones into A-Bomb, having the entire Marvel Universe get "Hulked Out," or introducing a Hulkverine hybrid (just because it looked and sounded cool, probably) never excited me.
I agree too but I also like the creativity with some of the new Symbiote offsprings, it’s just the original offsprings (Phage, lasher, riot, scream, agony, etc) were introduced way too early and way too soon but obviously thats what the fans wanted at the time. World-building in comics is very important nowadays tho and so I can understand why people now hate the fact that there’s more “venoms” then there are any other type of character.
Personally, the concept of the symbiotes always fascinated me and i wanted to see more of them, an alien parasitic race that grants their user an extremely cool looking suit? sign me up, if Venom was left as the only symbiote, the rest of the concepts about them would be left since Venom is much more about the internal conflict of Eddie and the Symbiote, with more symbiotes we can explore more things about them, the aspect of them being parasites that take over other beings, more cool looking suits and more characters in general If the idea of the symbiotes would have been left solely with Venom i think it would have been wasted, because, yes Venom is at it's core the biggest known representative of the symbiote race, he doesn't embody the aspects that make symbiotes so cool, he is much more of a character that is unique to itself Making more symbiotes i think was the obvious idea and the best one
I don’t mind his edge just because I really enjoy when writers explore Carnage’s birth like in Web Of Venom: Carnage Born. The whole being born and immediately dying from being choked by his umbilical cord which leads to him ending up in some sort of hell that’s a black abyss that feels like a cage for him to the point that when he awakens from this state he believes that by skinning and killing others he is leading them to freedom pretty interesting.
That story is really fascinating but I did NOT know that symbiote babies had umbilical cords like humans. I thought they just divided into two like many bacteria do.
This is how I know Drake didn’t do enough research. “Nobody remembers the other symbiotes.” Clearly he never read the tie in stories to absolute carnage where we get more characters depth with the scream Symbiote and her new host Andi. Or the fact many symbiote’s were brought back such as the life foundation. And clearly he isn’t up to date cuz the current event Extreme carnage is not only touching up on the other symbiotes after the king in black event, but giving them more character development, and we even get Toxin back who bonds with a life foundation’s member kid (like how phage, agony, riot and lasher did to become hybrid back in the late 90s when bonding with a life foundation member). Then there’s also carnage using politics to not only have people rely on him (since he’s disguised) to use hate and fear to misguide them, but also plans on controlling the symbiotes on earth to become the new Knull. Since Eddie is now God of the symbiotes who brings order, it makes sense for carnage to be the counter of that. Becoming the new God of chaos for the symbiotes. As for the whole “oh he’s a one note character” you’re acting like that can be a bad thing at times. Sometimes being one note works because carnage can’t be reasoned with, he has no morals, and in a sense he has no soul. That’s what makes his character beautiful in a twisted sense because yes the Symbiote gives Cletus the power to fulfill his desires but it’s Cletus who’s the actual monster within.
Yeah this video definitely gave me a vibe that Drake just went through Absolute Carnage and didn’t really focus on the main Venom book and the side Web Of Venom comics that Donny Cates wrote that added a lot to characters and motivations. It’s a good piece of a pie but everything together makes it extremely satisfying to read.
I don't often say this but it feels right NEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRD (in all seriousness that was the most in depth comic info vomit i have seen outside of reddit)
@@skyyswaggstudios2934 Kind of similar to King In Black both were event books you could just buy the events and skip the main Venom book or the side books like Web Of Venom. Like reading Blackest Night without reading the main Green Lantern title. But yes a lot of the character development/set-up and emotional moments were found in Venom.
I have an idea on how I would change Carnage so I could like him more. Just so anyone who is reading this knows, I don't think they should do this. But if I was given complete creative control over a single issue of a one off comic starring Carnage, this is what I would do to make him more interesting to me personally. If Venom is obsessed with being the hero, and will do anything do be one, Carnage should strive to be the villain. Semi nonsequiter, but have any of you played Guilty Gear Strive? Basically, there's a guy named Happy Chaos. He's an extremely powerful scientist who was driven mad through learning too much about "The Backyard", basically the fourth dimension. His goal is to stir the pot as much as physically possible. Poke the most amount of bears as he can, purely so he can watch them all fight. But, he has one other motive. He wants to be the villain. In Guilty Gear, character themes tell us a lot about their stories and motives, and in his theme "Drift", we learn about his reasons. "Can you hear it? The pulses of the living. The erratic rhythm is a grand orchestra, it's never the same tone. Who wants to stop this? It can't be. When the violent storm is over, blue sky is more beautiful than ever. You see? I want that, I want that, it's all I want. I drift tonight, carried by the waves. I'll just be a black seed. I drift tonight, please don't stop the flow, don't stop the flow." His mentally is that every story needs a villain. He's more than happy to play that role because of the chaos it brings. He loves prodding things to see what makes them tick, and by doing stuff like that, he enables the heroes of the story to do their thing. He loves looking at life's rich tapestry, but since he's no longer human, he isn't in that tapestry. So, he does everything he can to make that tapestry as beautiful as he can. Carnage should be similar, in my eyes. He should be a person who is obsessed with being the villain. He loves killing, but he does so with the express purpose of drumming up chaos for the heroes to fix. Not to fuck with them, but to push them to become better. He's still an evil piece of shit, and doing this would certainly piss on his entire character, but if his personality was less set in stone, this is the direction I would take the character.
I think him being overused is a very fair point. Him being one note doesn’t really bother me but those two issues mixed together can create big problem and I get that
I'm a massive Venom fan but I agree. I tend to use this rather... lewd analogy for carnage. Sure carnage is cool, but it's like a person only using 1 way to pleasure their partner even though there's hundreds of ways. It may be good the first time around, but it's going to get boring really quickly. There are so many more marvel villains that would be fun to be in Venom comics.
Not gonna lie the last time I thought Carnage was REALLY interesting was either during that major event where Heroes started acting like villains and vise versa and Deadpool vs Carnage cause it was the first time we got to see Carnage just genuinely give up and think while locking himself up in a jail cell.
3:54 Hmmm, Heath Leger's Joker is an AGENT OF CHAOS yet his one of the most iconic villains in movie history. So if Carnage is a one-note character then so is the Joker. Carnage has all the ingredients of being a great villain, it really depends on the writer and not every villain needs a sympathetic backstory or grey morality in order to be interesting. Honestly, all it takes is ONE good writer to change someone's perception of the character without the changing the character.
Carnage can't be analogous to Waluigi, since Waluigi isn't actually a bad guy, he's just a dude Wario knows and sometimes invites to play games with them lol
His simplicity is why we love him, he's just a murderous force of nature that you insert into a story to up the stakes bc you know he's gonna f sh*t up
Honestly the only time I enjoy Carnage was Lego Marvel video games because they got creative to make him fit in Lego world and they made him way too funny. Plus his Idle animation of hugging a teddy bear was way more interesting he ever been to me. Also Drake great video as always.
I gotta say, this is a BIG improvement from the Kang video, and this is coming from someone who likes Carnage a whole lot more than Kang. While I don’t necessarily agree with it, the criticisms in this video just make a lot more sense, and I can totally see where you’re coming from.
Carnage just does not mesh well with the rest of Spidey’s rouges gallery. The villains Spidey fought were never THAT heinous. Even classic GG killed Gwen more on a technicality than murderous intent. I think Carnage works better as a foil for Venom than Spider-Man.
I really like carnage because of his design and I do kinda like that he just kills for the sake of it but I would mind seeing a more in depth and more interesting version of him
@@superthorc6894 I don't think he should be made more relatable or anything because well he's a serial killer but maybe just some more detailed stuff about him
the one note satanic evil psychopath of carnage’s personality is kinda why I love the character. He’s just an extremely violent murder with an alien that makes him a killing machine. For some people they want more from that but for me that fact that he kills for no good reason is what makes him so appealing to me and many others. Though I do see your point and agree with most of what you say.
I feel like the last decade of carnage has been great. Axus, carnageusa, fighting toxin, absolute carnage and whatever he’s doing right how with his own hive mind. I know it’s 1 dimensional but they keep upping the ante with him and that’s the coolest part. He went from serial killer to force of nature to herald of a god!
He’s an evil dude, and sometimes it’s okay to just wanna see venom and Spider-Man punch an evil dude in the face, especially when the one note evil dude has a design as cool as carnage
So I guess you missed all the parts where I explicitly said that that it's totally fine that he doesn't have nuance and that's just not the kind of character that I find enjoyable.
Thanks for calling out DC's overuse of TBWL as a side. The moment he put his brain into a dead Dr. Manhattan's body just sealed him as everything wrong with DC Comics as a whole.
Yup. Thank Darkseid they finally got rid of him, and DC's only improved since..... At least after Future State (Aside from Future State Nightwing because Dick Grayson can do no wrong) ended and Infinite Frontier rolled around, that is
As someone who absolutely adores Carnage I find it really interesting to hear the other side from someone who doesnt want to bite my head off for enjoying the character. I understand and honestly agree with some of your issues with him. Hes a particular kind of character that isn't necessarily meant for everyone and I think this video gets that across very well and in a way that should ( I repeat "SHOULDN'T") break out into all out war. Keep up the good work and love the videos man.
"Yeah. Everyone totally remembers all of Venom's other kids and their cool 90s names, like Scream, Agony, Riot, Lasher, and Phage." Scream is the only one of those five that I remember for two reasons: (1) she was mentioned in one of Linkara's reviews and (2) I saw an issue featuring her at my local comic store and I got it because I was curious about there being other symbiotes beyond Venom and Carnage.
Carnage is a flavor that appeals to some and not others. He's a goofy slasher villain who is very flatly evil. That said he's always just an excuse to see very creative violent death and horror stuff. His late 2010's solo series is pretty fun even if it ends in a dumb way it wasn't trying to say anything profound from the beginning aside from the trauma that is explored with the daughter of some of the victims that sent him to prison initially.
Honestly Carnage as a force of nature is a great view on it, and I think seeing him less as a character and more of a animal or something is why I kinda find him interesting. He doesn't need motives, its just kinda instinct I guess?
I think his simplicity is fine. I like Freddy Krueger because he's not complex, he is a bastard. He knows it and kills not out of revenge, but sure sadism. But I'm fine with you not liking him.
Everyone is allowed to have their opinion on a character. For me, Carnage is ok as a simple character, and it makes him even more fun. He's not my favorite either, but things get interesting when he shows up.
As much as I love Carnage, the character is boring. It’s just the stories he’s in are fun. Like Absolute Carnage and now Extreme Carnage are fun just cuz they use the character in super interesting ways and get into the darker side of Marvel that you don’t see often. Edit: Scream is a really fun character now too. This is coming from a guy who loves all the symbiote stuff though.
Eh to each their own. I just loved how a deranged serial killer became a prophet of a dark god and it literally takes the Avengers and Defenders along with Venom to stop him. Also his design in that series is *chef’s kiss*.
Don’t necessarily agree with “edgy”, Cates never did anything that wasn’t out of character for what Carnage would do. He’s full on done with the world and to use a very overused sentiment wants to see it burn and he’ll do it by any means necessary. He’s chaos incarnate and that’s it. But like I said, all opinions are valid and more than welcome disagreement
Ahhh yeah, makes total sense. Fortunately he goes back to the more classic design in future stuff but I love his first design in that series where he’s the big skeleton thing cuz that’s basically what he is: just a reanimated corpse piloting a piece of a dark god. Also no problem with the discussion, it pays to be civil
Honestly... I don't even like Venom. The concept of an alien black goo from out of space seems too antithetical to me to be related to a character as grounded as Spider-Man.
"I don't like disliking stuff" Great statement Drake! I usually try to get over what bugs me about a character or story arc and just enjoy......but that doesn't always work.
I am actually really liking the current Extreme Carnage mini-event. It differentiates the different non-Venom symbiotes and keeps Carnage mostly in the back, pulling the strings to some evil scheme. It's obviously not finished yet, but by now I'd even say that I'm enjoying it more than the last three years of Venom comics, because it's an action/slasher B-Movie type story, that the symbiotes are perfect for. I'm also a fan of the original Toxin mini, but he quickly got turned into a just another monstrous symbiote, so I'm curious for Steve Orlando's newest take on him.
Well I am really enjoying the brutality and return of Flash Thompson in Extreme Carnage I do feel like it’s missing the emotional depth that Venom was hitting in arcs like Venom Beyond. Though I do think Ram V and Al Ewing will be able to maintain that quality when they take over Venom.
I like carnage because he is a villain that can get away with really , really bad stuff if you need someone to take over a entire town killing men women and children use carnage want a villain to throw a baby out a window trying to escape from Spiderman after going on a week long killing spree use carnage. I always saw carnage as being a character that both writers and readers don't mind seeing him do really bad thing's without it makeing them mad say you made the lizard or craven do half the stuff carnage did there would be outcry but carnage is that safety net of horribleness and sometimes it's fun to see what he'll do next since he has the freedom to do whatever he wants that other villain's can't
I’m a full blown symbiote fan but I agree. Carnage is just the antagonist and is mainly just there to improve other stories. I completely agree with you though me personally I find his ultra simplicity very reassuring like a favorite book you’d read as a kid or song you put on repeat.
I think Carnage was only supposed to be a one-off character that would make Venom and Spider-man team up and then just kind of throw him away but the character really blew up so Marvel kept using him
this was the most enjoyable video where its just about a different opinion than mine ive ever seen, the way you handle this video is so efficient at conveying that theyre just opinions instead of just saying "ohh this and this are blah blah blah" and acting like its objective facts. 10/10 great job
You raise a ton of valid points. Nothing you said is wrong about the character, but I still love Carnage, he’s one of the few style over substance characters from the 90s that works for me and I couldn’t tell you why or give you any counter points. I just think he’s neat.
As a kid who only knew of Carnage through the Spider-Man 90's animated series, and then slowly from there. He was one of my favourite toys. He has a great image and had a sweet introduction. I cannot say how anything before or beyond that relates to anything, but I enjoy him, but probably more so that small sliver of him that I have in my memory.
3:29 I saw this picture in a spider-man compendium type book in second grade and until Drake said otherwise I always remembered that image, thinking Venom ate a baby.
I know you don't like Deadpool, but I felt the "Deadpool vs. Carnage" story did a good job giving Carnage direction in killing. Or I could be remembering wrongly since it's been years since I've read that
My favourite Venom spawn is Sleeper. He's the most recently introduced symbiote in Venom: First Host and I loved his character, especially at the end of the comic when he goes a darker route then what his parents wanted for him. Apart from that, I love Anti-Venom, and Venom of course. Carnage is scary but that's all he has going, and if the movie gives him a deeper personality and motivation then that would be great
I have to admit being a Carnage fan myself (hearing about Absolute Carnage got be back into comic books) I have to respect your opinion and the way you presented it. You have a lot of good points and implementing then would only improve Carnage as a character. Ex. I'm not sure that going into Extreme Carnage right after King in Black was a great idea. While I am enjoying the event its a lot coming after 2 symbiote events in 2 years. Good video. I will be subscibing
I read a panel where the Enchantress has gathered a team of supervillains as a sort of Avengers like team and Carnage was apart of it and said, “I don’t know the difference between right and wrong”; I think writers should lean more into that side of Carnage, it has the potential to make him more interesting to explore a character who doesn’t think what he’s doing is wrong and thinks it’s just a way of having fun not realizing the damage and pain he causes to others. “I’m not a crazy man, I’m a vengeful man” - Cletus Cassidy (Venom: Let there be Carnage); from the trailer it seems that they are making Carnage a more interesting character, I like the concept, but the problem is the writers don’t seem to explore his psychology that much and just have him as a one-not mass murderer.
Carnage being bonded with A serial killer is what makes him deep. His endless and sometimes seemingly unstoppable power and sporadic murder gives depth to his character and others. Hes not just some bad guy he's chaos immortalized.
I 100% disagree.. carnage is the most real personification of humanity darkest impulsive toward violence. He is evil without the misguided delusions of purpose. An addict to violence that ain't looking for anything more than To enjoy the ride.. carnage is frighteningly real And he contrast with every other villain I'm the marvel universe cause he doesn't fit In with the other villains. .. he is a monster from a horror film like .. Freddy Krueger.. Chucky or ghostface in the first scream..
Not every character needs super elaborate motivation/backstories. Sometimes simple is best. And just about everything is overused in comics these days.
There's a storyline in the comics where Cassidy is killing people and the police are trying to find out how he selected his victims,It's discovered that he just randomly picks a name in the phone book, that's fascinating to me
EDIT:[I made this before I watched the vid and this is pretty much what he said] Carnage should only be used in like 1 movie he's a murder he's insane you can't really has that for more than once I'd have him be a very important part of a trilogy but die in the same movie at the end he's more of a 1 event rather than a recurring thing
I completely agree. I will say I LOVED him in Venomverse. He is used as a secret weapon. Then he is a prime target, referred to as an “anomaly” in Venomized (the sequel. I LOVED what they were doing in Carnage, and Carnage was technically both the hero and villain. Now he is the big villain again for the “Death of Venomverse” comics and also the Crimson Reign event. I hope they do something new and exciting again. I think it would be cool to see him potentially bond with someone more stable, and be humbled into an antihero. In maybe another time, or a universe without supers. That could be cool!
You pretty much hit the nail on the head about 5 minutes in as to why I like Carnage. He isn't as fun as The Joker or anything, but he's so unforgivingly evil and murderous that he always feels like a threat when he shows up. Great design, cool powers, makes for good fights. That's really all I need from the character personally.
I feel like I want one shot horror comics. Carnage in a small farm town. Carnage in a hospital. What it’s like for him to hunt and cause terror, you know?
I've always been on the "fuck Carnage" train. I've always hated him and the way I see some of his fans hype him up and almost look up to him, in a sense, makes me want to stay away from them. There are character's who don't have a lot of dimension to them who I like too, but at least the fans are either aware of this and/or said character does have something, anything, about them that gives them some charisma. Carnage has only been interesting during Axis and otherwise is there to make someone else look interesting. He, himself, is just a bland, at best, and terrible character. Someone can do something new and interesting with him but no one has taken the initiative to do so yet.
I remember reading the comic that carnage appeared when a piece of venom shredded and became a symbiote and attacked to the serial killer. Since carnage is a baby and only developed and learned from the serial killer.
Hey drake, I’m inclined to agree with you! You and Sal from comic pop definitely see eye to eye on this. Really enjoy you’re thoughtful video’s.Keep up the good work.
As someone who personally likes Carnage, I do agree about him being overused. I really don’t see the need for a new Carnage event after last year’s Absolute Carnage. Should have given him a break.
What i like about Carnage is he cant be stopped and since a symbiote stays with a host's personality after getting seperated that means hes unkillable and wont change of he's separated from Cassidy
I think you’re forgetting something about Carnage that is a little bit odd. Nothing major that will affect your opinion, but carnage isn’t just bonded to Cletus. Carnage IS Cletus, thanks to the blood bond. I do wish they could do something new with him, but I’m fine with him being that slasher stereotype. Also, if I’m misinformed somehow, my bad, but every version of Carnage I’ve seen pulls from that idea of him being one with the symbiote, not being a pair of two creatures. I’m fairly certain he, of all symbiotes, uses the pronoun “I” instead of we to show he has full control
Maybe have him be used more as a potential threat than an actual one, like terrorists threaten to release him from confinement if their demands are not met?
![EVERY Host of Carnage! [Venom]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/thbRkS5D3SQ/mqdefault.jpg)
![EVERY Host of Carnage! [Venom]](/img/tr.png)
![DC's Failed Spider-Man Ripoff [Sideways]](/img/1.gif)
I think his simple character is what gives him that special edge. When Carnage is involved you know stuff is about to get crazy.
Makes sense
His best comics revolve around his own personal madness but sadly, most are just mindless action
I would compare waluigi to carnage he can be pretty goofy
It always felt to me they were trying to make a Joker for Spider-Man, but...we already had that. Goblin was already the "Joker". He was crazy, ruthless, unpredictable but methodical, and most importantly he's deeply personal in a negative way for the hero.
Carnage doesnt have this as he's just, "crazy killer".
Yeah if you had him it’s an easy way to add tension but not have it like annoying or anything
Carnage makes the most sense when he's treated like a kraken, not really a character, just an awesome monster that can be unleashed when shit gets real
I love Carnage just to see how he will be stopped since he can’t be reasoned with morality and is super difficult to beat.
Seriously, thats the coolest thing about him. He is unstoppable and it requires extreme physical force to stop him
@@whothethunk Exactly you have to play his game regardless and loads will die.
Sentry didn't seem to have any difficulty...
@@pious83 We Don’t talk about that epic interaction.Probably because he came back with Legs
Problem is that gets repetitive. He's just a horror movie villain. After "maximum carnage" where else was there to go with the character? Have him kill the entire world? It just gets ridiculous. He's good for a cheap thrill every couple of years but you can't build an interesting story around him. At least joker has his unpredictability and theatricality. Carnage is just a caricature of a serial killer who's power is basically "MAKE WEAPONS OUT OF BLOOOOOOOOD!!!!!" Seriously, if you were to name the "best spider-man stories of all time" would any carnage story make that list?
IMO Drake, Carnage should be treated less as a character and more as a monster. He's simple and causes destruction. He is really good at giving Peter consequences, and really raising the stakes. He's less of a man than Venom is, which makes him dangerous
Honestly, yeah. If they're not gonna do anything with Cletus' character, just have him be the Doomsday to Peter's Superman: the nigh unstoppable monster that always raises the stakes whenever he shows up
Yeah. I like him way more as a plot device and tool then when stories focus on cledis
Yeah, I agree as well. I just recently read Mind Bomb, and I was so into him at first. As an artist, he's so visually interesting, and the comic treated him as some horror monster. But then I read something like Spiderman absolute carnage where it gets super complicated, saying Carnage has infected all these heroes, and also Norman Osbourne, and now Norman thinks he's Cletus, and everything fell apart for me. He was much better utilized as a Lovecraftian entity rather than a sussed out villain
So ultimate carnage?
He said this In the video.
I mean... Yeah, he kinda does, and overuse of him is straight up the worst part about him, yet, I do enjoy him as a foil to Venom. I have no real love or hate for him, but yet I can totally get your mindset here, without question.
So is joker if you think about it
@@w1ndgeneral226 joker is anything but one note. dude has layers
@@sarveshs3244
Still overused though
That's really it, I dislike Carnage because he is both 1 note and overused. It's fine to have a fun over the top 1 note villain, but that character needs to be sparingly used to play to that role. And a 1 note character cannot carry a solo series, despite way to many attempts at Carnage solo titles
Me personally? Even tho hes not my favorite villain, i still see a decent amount of depth in him. Not just from his words but his actions.
Absolute carnage and even the TASM2 game explain why he loves killing.
Axis shows what lengths carnage is willing to go to, to change, and we see his guilt after the arc ends in how he tries killing nova for knowing him when he cared, and when he wasnt in complete control.
I think cletus himself is about control. From what ive read, each time we see him, he is enforcing his will on something. LOSING that control hurts him as he most likely feels the need to always be on top of things.
Imo, marvel does a decent job with him in terms of story. Hes not TOO deep but if u look below the surface theres more there.
I like Carnage, I think simple villains are important. Complex villains are great for a lot of stories, but sometimes the best motivation can just be "I wanna slaughter someone and wear their guts like a necklace." There's a lot of messed up people out there that would go crazy if they ever got superpowers, I think Carnage represents that really well.
When design rights and tell right, Carnage is one of the many terrifying characters ever and can be unpredictable because of that motivation alone. Another great character examples like Jigsaw; he put people in death traps, "teaching" them to appreciate and embrace life yet he has a god complex. Or Halloween's Micheal Myers where his original motivation for the killing is nothing, a greater reason why it's random.
@@eddyviews1427 I can see what your trying to say but carnage and jigsaw arent the same type of villain. Jigsaw thinks he is doing the right thing and bettering people, carnage knows he is evil and just wants to kill people.
I’d argue jigsaw is more on the complex than not.
Micheal myers however fits the bill.
@Rob Mohamedally I like that perspective and I definitely agree on a lot of lvls with this overall.
Michel myers is undoubtedly more terrifying to me than carnage on every lvl
I feel like Carnage is a good flat character. While he isn't really much of a character and doesn't change much, he impacts the characters around him whenever he's there
but yet the joker gets a pass appreantly
@@donbirkinshaw1630 thing is, Carnage *just* kills that’s all he does, Joker at least does something different, from haha funny clown man to what the ever living f*ck, he joker gassed some fish, he once became an ambassador stopping Batman from fighting him, he beat a child to death with a crowbar and explosives, he raped batgirl after crippling her and made Jim Gordon watch,
Joker, unlike Carnage, at least does something different
@@TheSentientDoor well when you put it like that fiar..enouhg just the desicption given here about carnage i figured could easily be applied ot joker as he doesnt really change or have any character goruth either and stays a serial killing pyco so i was wondeing why its ok for him but not carnage..altho i like carnage from the sense of the dude actually kind of scares me..i kind of comarehim to a 80s horror slasher movies monster like jason vorhees and freddy kruger type villains where theirs not much depth to these character but theirs something interesting about them that kept people interested and coming back for multiple installments these characters was populer and theirs not much to them but they are fun and entertaining...people take some interest in them same with carnage...for me hes a horror movie serial killer/monster type character that happens to be a spider-man villain and im fine with that because it course spide-rman to question his own morality and how far he will go in trying to stop people like him that are just to far gone to be redeemed..i dont think every villain needs to be complex and simplicity is ok some times..the problem wiht this tho with canrgae being so simple he proberly shouldnt be over useds as much as he is if his range is so low i still think he has some interesting ideas like how venom is the cracked mirror version of spider-man and carnage is teh crakced mirror veriosn of venom and i kind of like the concept of what if venom was boneded to a serial killer because tis a scary thought and for the most part i thought it was exicuted well and another interesting thing i find si the fact that the symbote is mixed in with his blood stream making him almost impossible to stop and make him some what immortal it seems as long as his blodd is fine the symbiote is fine...i like canrage as a arch nemise to venom because in that regard i think he works but focharacter wiht no much range they proberly shouldnt over use him as much as they do...
@@donbirkinshaw1630 I think it's worthy to note Joker also doesn't just enjoy mindless violence like Carnage does. The killing itself does nothing for him, it's the chaos and psychological damage he can inflict with his violent actions that drive him. Like killing Jason Todd was to scar Batman, torturing Barbra Gordon was to try and psychologically shatter her father, all the abuse he inflicts onto Harley Quinn to mentally fuck with her. Unlike Carnage, who just as an insatiable blood lust. Nothing really wrong with that, they're both pretty similar in the sense they're more uncontrollable forces of nature, I'd just say Carnage's actions are more surface level
@@trashgoblin1182 just like freedy kruger then..hes just a serial killer that gets of on killing kids..not any depth to him and he can also be desribed as 1 note a pychotic seriel killer that goes around killing people with his power in the most brtualt ways possible why lovieng eveyr ssecodn of ti whole alos luaghing and making fun of their misfortune with a dakr sense of humour..canrage and freddy kruger are alot alike just replace the dream deman powers witha symbiote..and most people like freddy kruger as a villain hes doesnt has a pyiloshiphy or any depth or sympathy and both of them seem to have anever ending bloodlust that he inflicts on people in the most brutalits ways possible or torutres them while lauging at them..the only difference between freddy and carnage is the fact that freddy was doing what he was doing out of revenge while carnage is more chaotic and random..but i think that chaoticness and randomness amkes carnage scarier because you cant reason withsome like that..if hes going to kill you hes going to kill you nothign you can say to him is ging to get him to stop..but maye if the villain is kore flesh otuand arnt as insane you coudl possibly walk out of that room alvie if you say the right thigns but iwht carnage theirs now bargining or talking your way out of it if he wants you dead your simply dead and better hope theirs a suuper aroudn to stop him becuase you aint going to be able to..of how chaotic he is he doesnt really have a reason to do what he does..he just does becuase he enjoys it and thats a scary thoguht because people like cletus do exist just minus the symbiote..the randomness makes hiis killing less predictbale..like his frist story his plan was to pick out random names in a phone book and go around and kill that perosn and then moe on to the next random perosn in the phone book to murder next or in maxiumu canrage when carnages evil teammates was startign to get frustrated working with carnage because they doesnt seem tobe a plan or end gool like most villains have and carnage just simply replays their is no plan just chaso..it makes him threaning which is what a villain should be to somethign that powerful and evil and hes doign things without a plan or motive makes him..kind of scary and unhinged...altho their are some storys that tried to explain cletus bloodlust..like appearently..cletus himself is a real coward when it comes to death.and he doesnt want to die one day like all of us will so in his sick and twisted deluions he thinks that if he tips the scales of death in deaths favour and give him..well her loads of scarifces and deaths honuering deah maybe she will let me live because im suplying death with more death which he thinks is what death would want..more death so he hopes that by killing enough people in offering those sacrfice to death that he will magcially be spared of death one day because he trades more deaths for 1 life his..which does sound like somethign a crazy person would come up with..kind of like all those crazy people that commit violent crimes and they say stuff like god told me to do it or something like that..people like this exist and its interesting to know what would happen if a symbiote got on to someone like that..hes not the most fleshed out charatcer and doesnt have much depth..but he does thave some interesitng parts about him and does have a few good story and hes both really scary and kind of fun to watch in a sick joker sense where hes jsut so over the top and out of his mind you just want to know what hes gonna do next and howhe will be defeated and or why or even if their is a why..not every charatcer needs to have multiple layers of depth like an onion some can be simple and carnage is simple and i can understand if people dont like that..but i would not say that carnage is a bad villain tho that is a bad take i think because as a villain he works in what he is surpsoe to be..the monster under your bed..what is a villain really just an evil obsticl in the way of the heros to defeat and canrage fist that..hes scary hes power hes a a big threat level and does villiouns things and has a dark sens ef humour and an over the top crazy facter like joker mixed with freddy krugger and thats not a bad idea for a villain..some villaisn can jsut be unredeemable shit bags of a villain..becuase people like this eixst..not eveyr criminal does things for what they preseive as good reasons..some peopel are jsut fucign nuts and will never change or grow and can never be rredemed based on the thigns tht thye do..and some criminlas/ villaisn can be redeemed and cnargae shows of the other side of that villiouns coing.the side the doesnt chnage or find redemption becuase if you like this ornot people like ths exist and its oddly realistc minsu the alien space parasite thing but is this situaion was to happen id be that it would as theirs alot of fucked up people in this world
Carnage is definitely a simple character, but I think the interesting thing about him is what he does and how other characters interact with them. One of my favorite stories is when Deadpool went after Carnage and used chaos (and his craziness) against him. Deadpool uses that chaos to find and predict what Carnage is going to do. Since Carnage is all about chaos and being unpredictable it infuriates him. Deadpool messes with Carnage so bad it causes him to willing go to jail.
You happen to remember what story this is or what issue?
@@srrvin911 Deadpool vs Carnage by Cullen Bunn.
Cullen Bunn is garbage for making him have Carnage 'willing to go to jail' what a copout ending to that issue.
@@KennethMoreland I find it fit since at that point, Carnage is so confused since Deadpool seems to know where he is going to go next, that it mentally breaks him and thinks that going to jail was his choice, and that there is no way Deadpool would expect that
I remember another story where DeadPool fought Carnage and Carnage beat the shit out of DP so bad DP ended up using the Hybrid symbiote to beat him. I can't remember what the name of the comic was, but I do remember seeing Comicstorian's video on it.
I disagree, I think carnage is the perfect foil for the modern anti hero venom we have today. Modern Eddie/Venom are depicted as very humanized and explore the question "what if you gave a man the powers of a God, how would he cope". Carnage and Cassidy in contrast, are the personification of pure evil and destruction, they are a monster, a force of nature, and in the original debut of carnage, a consequence of Venoms actions taking form. Carnage is the embodiment of Venoms past sins that he must face and atone for by beating carnage. However, carnage is overused and is very simple which can leave his character to feel boring.
^What they said
I remember a while ago I had a dynamic pitch for Carnage. Effectively it was just: same goal, different roads. Basically the symboite is more to the point and is gruesome with killing while Cassidy has more of a “artistic flair” and wants his killings to have more meaning.
With how Cletus acts that doesn't sound far off. I think Cletus being the more artistic and sociopathic side and the symbiote being the more brutal, insane pyschotic side fits. Hopefully writers expand more on Carnage's in depth perspective.
This idea works well if you have carnage become part of miles main villian roaster
Can’t believe they made Carnage an assist trophy again smh
I got a good laugh out seeing the panel with Carnage saying "You can't rob a bank if I burn it down first!"
I haven’t read too much into the character of Carnage, but from what I have read, the character is a maniac and entirely crazy, and the idea of what a serial killer would do if he had a symbiote is quite a cool concept, and although he has no morals, I’d like to see a more in-depth look at the character and to have a writer create a philosophy and a reason, like childhood reasons, family, maybe just personal ideals, and I think that would be very good!
I'd agree if they actually made him a proper serial killer. Serial killers don't tend to go on rampages through downtown New York for the fun of it. He's a mass murdering psychopath and not much else typically.
He's a boring murderer with no philosophy at all
Carnage: Mindbomb is a pretty amazing exploration of all that
Cletus has been mad since his childhood, he killed animals for curiosity with no remorse.
He killed his grandmother by pushing her down some stairs (which abused him btw)
Even burned the orphanage where he was.
Heck, the very first time he met Brock (both were jailmates) he was already planning to kill him. Brock was saved by the bell, the Venom symbiont showing at last minute to free him.
His mother had schizophrenia, and he's a descendant from Courland Kasady who was a serial killer devoted to Knull. He was literally destined/cursed to be a sadist psychopath ever since his birth just because of being a Kasady. Just a few minutes after beinh born he died and had saw Knull.
His destiny was to free Knull, he is basically the Anti-Christ from the symbionts PoV. Knull's goal was to extinguish all life and creation, to "end all light in the universe" because he predates it. He's the Lord of the Abyss, and he went apeshit when the Celestials showed out of nowhere and started to fill the void with creation. That's why Carnage is a psycho mass murderer, because chaos is what he is.
But he kinda shapes reality for example there’s some people out there who are just really messed up and they kill animals and people for no reason. Like Michael Myers, the creator of mm didn’t like the remake cuz it gave a reasoning to why he kills which is to off from what he intended the character to be. Like I said before it shapes reality.
3:55 that’s why I love him lol. He’s perfect villain for venom and he’s a good standout against all of Spider-Man’s. And I think it’s the simplicity that makes him fun you could pretty much write him to go up with any hero you want and have any bad guy motivation you want. But I totally see why you think he’s overused marvel has gotta think of more venom villains
Carnage isn't necessarily a deep character, but when he is used well like say Annihilus such as in "Annihilation" I enjoy the character. As being used as a menace, not as a character, though he could have his psyche expanded upon in a mini series. Especially considering Spider Man villains from his inception and even the 90s have grown, but yes a character that is overused becomes tiring. Its how I feel about Thanos now and he has been one of my favourite characters in Marvel since his inception.
To be fair I think marvel movie thanos and comic thanos are different enough that it makes a difference. But I can also understand getting sick of his purple chin if I kept seeing it over and over
@@NeutralGuyDoubleZero Its more how they keep derailing his character development from 2012 onward that bothers me, as the villain had essentially grown and then he now is reduced to being his Death obsessed self that is a space serial killer. Dr. Doom is a good example of growing as a character with his appearances and that is more of what I wanted for Thanos, but its just not the case.
@@Ashguy733 Yeah. The things I've generally seen said about thanos in comics and his storyline was how excessive and poorly tied together they were. Pretty sure he technically resets the universe at multiple points lol
@@NeutralGuyDoubleZero Yes well its Starlin trying to rein in his Thanos vs other authors versions and it got messy, but honestly I really enjoyed the characters development by Starlin, but not only though, Ron Marz and Keith Giffen I think kept the "lone existentialist purveyor of knowledge" Thanos post Infinity War pretty well, he was interesting in Annihilation and Dan Abnett and Andy Lanning used him well in their Marvel cosmic stuff. Its honestly Jason Aaron's Thanos Rising comic and onward where I haven't enjoyed Thanos and that includes Starlin's two post 2013 Thanos Trilogies. He was a pretty interesting villain that now is used because he is popular in culture.
When ever i play with a carnage Lego figure, I make him a bratty, annoying son to venom, and trust me, it’s freaking hilarious
The Lich from Adventure Time is a pretty one track simple character just focused on killing all life nothing else but i still find him such a great character simply cus that's all he wants there's no persuading him or stopping he is just a unstoppable force of nature that always comes back
I feel like the lich and carnage are less of characters, and more like evil entities. They shouldn't have character development because they are so focused on what you can call their "goal", they don't need a real personality.
@Minwon Jang He used to stand out from Spiderman's rogue's gallery but then you got guys like Morlun. All the others had some ideal person they wanted to be and wanted some kind of order and then you had this omnicidal alien that is a partnership away from wiping out the planet for giggles.
The thing that makes the Lich work a lot better than Carnage is how he is presented as a near unstoppable force. He is malice and death given form. He us evil and driven only towards evil. But he is also used very sparingly. While Carnage is used way to often to make use of his 1 note nature. Also Ron Perlman's silky powerful yet articulate voice helps a lot with keeping the Lich feeling dangerous and threatening.
I personally feel that the lack of carnage’s character development and simpleness is the main reason why I love him as a villain, he’s a monster that can’t be reasoned with and he’ll never stop killing and cause chaos. Loved the video.
The AXIS event made Carnage interesting to me character-wise since it emphasized how uneducated and one-note Cletus was. The maniac's a grade school dropout.
You have to look at how a villain serves the narrative that he's in...meaning that you have to take a look at what their purpose in the narrative and how they go about accomplishing whatever their roles needs them to do. Complex villains are typically more interesting, but if they contradict the thematic message of the story, or are put within a story that doesn't isn't suited for their character than it just becomes redundant. Frieza from dragon ball is often considered the best villain in the series despite being a simple character with generic motivations because he perfectly contrast's the simple character and motivations of the main character...which highlights the strength's of Goku as a character and makes for compelling dynamic between the two.
I definitely think complex villains and simple villains are both good. Sometimes you wanna have to think a little, and other times you wanna see someone that is shallow, not redeemable, and easy to hate. Sometimes you want a magneto, others you just want to see Spider-Man or venom punch carnage in his face
An idea I got for Carnage is that maybe in a future incarnation of the character, the symbiote could actually be holding back Cletus from simply turning into a raving animal.
Yeah, it could have a goal of its own which requires him to take hostages without killing them or something
Interesting premise. But if that were the symbiote’s goal, wouldn’t the easiest way to accomplish that just be to…separate from Cletus? I mean, a “normal” serial killer is easier to deal with than a serial killer with shapeshifting ooze powers.
@@rzeitouneh
Say that since the symbiote bonded with Cletus’s blood, it can’t separate itself from him without outside interference. And since it’s acting as a serial killer, nobody is willing to perform said interference
@@goroakechi6126 hm. Okay. I could see that. But, it might go against most of the character’s past portrayals.
@@rzeitouneh
Well, lots of reboots of characters do that sort of thing. Besides, it makes more thematic sense for a version of Venom with no morals to be its opposite. Eddie was strung along by the symbiote, but the symbiote has to hold back Cletus from tearing everyone apart.
What I like about this channel is how Drake says his opinion without saying in a way only he is the right and everyone else is wrong, even showing pros and cons.
I always felt like the minority that hated most of the symbiotes and only ever liked Venom, there's just so many symbiotes and it makes Venom feel less special and unique, I much preffered when he was the only symbiote because it had more mystique
I feel the same way about Gamma mutates and how they impact the Hulk's cast of characters, particularly for throwaway characters and issues. Some, like the Abomination and the Leader, I can accept -- or maybe if characters get unique abilities other than Hulk-like super strength (a la Jackie McGee in The Immortal Hulk). But ideas like turning Thunderbolt Ross into Red Hulk and Rick Jones into A-Bomb, having the entire Marvel Universe get "Hulked Out," or introducing a Hulkverine hybrid (just because it looked and sounded cool, probably) never excited me.
I agree too but I also like the creativity with some of the new Symbiote offsprings, it’s just the original offsprings (Phage, lasher, riot, scream, agony, etc) were introduced way too early and way too soon but obviously thats what the fans wanted at the time. World-building in comics is very important nowadays tho and so I can understand why people now hate the fact that there’s more “venoms” then there are any other type of character.
Personally, the concept of the symbiotes always fascinated me and i wanted to see more of them, an alien parasitic race that grants their user an extremely cool looking suit? sign me up, if Venom was left as the only symbiote, the rest of the concepts about them would be left since Venom is much more about the internal conflict of Eddie and the Symbiote, with more symbiotes we can explore more things about them, the aspect of them being parasites that take over other beings, more cool looking suits and more characters in general
If the idea of the symbiotes would have been left solely with Venom i think it would have been wasted, because, yes Venom is at it's core the biggest known representative of the symbiote race, he doesn't embody the aspects that make symbiotes so cool, he is much more of a character that is unique to itself
Making more symbiotes i think was the obvious idea and the best one
Remember when Spider-Man agreed to raise a Confederate flag in Carnage’s name? Like he didn’t have to agree to do it.
🤮
wait what? What issue did that happen?
what the actual fuck?
What?
Oh God is this a political thing?
I don’t mind his edge just because I really enjoy when writers explore Carnage’s birth like in Web Of Venom: Carnage Born. The whole being born and immediately dying from being choked by his umbilical cord which leads to him ending up in some sort of hell that’s a black abyss that feels like a cage for him to the point that when he awakens from this state he believes that by skinning and killing others he is leading them to freedom pretty interesting.
That story is really fascinating but I did NOT know that symbiote babies had umbilical cords like humans. I thought they just divided into two like many bacteria do.
@@astrobookwormsinger Cletus choked to death, not the symbiote.
This is how I know Drake didn’t do enough research. “Nobody remembers the other symbiotes.” Clearly he never read the tie in stories to absolute carnage where we get more characters depth with the scream Symbiote and her new host Andi. Or the fact many symbiote’s were brought back such as the life foundation. And clearly he isn’t up to date cuz the current event Extreme carnage is not only touching up on the other symbiotes after the king in black event, but giving them more character development, and we even get Toxin back who bonds with a life foundation’s member kid (like how phage, agony, riot and lasher did to become hybrid back in the late 90s when bonding with a life foundation member). Then there’s also carnage using politics to not only have people rely on him (since he’s disguised) to use hate and fear to misguide them, but also plans on controlling the symbiotes on earth to become the new Knull. Since Eddie is now God of the symbiotes who brings order, it makes sense for carnage to be the counter of that. Becoming the new God of chaos for the symbiotes. As for the whole “oh he’s a one note character” you’re acting like that can be a bad thing at times. Sometimes being one note works because carnage can’t be reasoned with, he has no morals, and in a sense he has no soul. That’s what makes his character beautiful in a twisted sense because yes the Symbiote gives Cletus the power to fulfill his desires but it’s Cletus who’s the actual monster within.
Yeah this video definitely gave me a vibe that Drake just went through Absolute Carnage and didn’t really focus on the main Venom book and the side Web Of Venom comics that Donny Cates wrote that added a lot to characters and motivations. It’s a good piece of a pie but everything together makes it extremely satisfying to read.
@@Emoney-hy2kn to my understanding the venom book is where a lot of the main stuff happened in absolute carnage right?
I don't often say this but it feels right NEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRD (in all seriousness that was the most in depth comic info vomit i have seen outside of reddit)
@@skyyswaggstudios2934 Kind of similar to King In Black both were event books you could just buy the events and skip the main Venom book or the side books like Web Of Venom. Like reading Blackest Night without reading the main Green Lantern title. But yes a lot of the character development/set-up and emotional moments were found in Venom.
@@Emoney-hy2kn that makes sense. I need to start reading venom by Donny cates, its looks super cool
I like to think of a lot one not villains as good obstacles, something for the hero to struggle with but self contained as an issue.
I have an idea on how I would change Carnage so I could like him more. Just so anyone who is reading this knows, I don't think they should do this. But if I was given complete creative control over a single issue of a one off comic starring Carnage, this is what I would do to make him more interesting to me personally.
If Venom is obsessed with being the hero, and will do anything do be one, Carnage should strive to be the villain.
Semi nonsequiter, but have any of you played Guilty Gear Strive? Basically, there's a guy named Happy Chaos. He's an extremely powerful scientist who was driven mad through learning too much about "The Backyard", basically the fourth dimension. His goal is to stir the pot as much as physically possible. Poke the most amount of bears as he can, purely so he can watch them all fight.
But, he has one other motive. He wants to be the villain. In Guilty Gear, character themes tell us a lot about their stories and motives, and in his theme "Drift", we learn about his reasons.
"Can you hear it? The pulses of the living. The erratic rhythm is a grand orchestra, it's never the same tone. Who wants to stop this? It can't be. When the violent storm is over, blue sky is more beautiful than ever. You see? I want that, I want that, it's all I want. I drift tonight, carried by the waves. I'll just be a black seed. I drift tonight, please don't stop the flow, don't stop the flow."
His mentally is that every story needs a villain. He's more than happy to play that role because of the chaos it brings. He loves prodding things to see what makes them tick, and by doing stuff like that, he enables the heroes of the story to do their thing. He loves looking at life's rich tapestry, but since he's no longer human, he isn't in that tapestry. So, he does everything he can to make that tapestry as beautiful as he can.
Carnage should be similar, in my eyes. He should be a person who is obsessed with being the villain. He loves killing, but he does so with the express purpose of drumming up chaos for the heroes to fix. Not to fuck with them, but to push them to become better.
He's still an evil piece of shit, and doing this would certainly piss on his entire character, but if his personality was less set in stone, this is the direction I would take the character.
Bro for the longest time I thought I was the only person in the world who thought that carnage was kinda overrated
I think him being overused is a very fair point. Him being one note doesn’t really bother me but those two issues mixed together can create big problem and I get that
I'm a massive Venom fan but I agree. I tend to use this rather... lewd analogy for carnage.
Sure carnage is cool, but it's like a person only using 1 way to pleasure their partner even though there's hundreds of ways. It may be good the first time around, but it's going to get boring really quickly. There are so many more marvel villains that would be fun to be in Venom comics.
Great analogy
I hate that I spend almost the entire video looking for the rage lantern symbol since they’re all there except rage
Not gonna lie the last time I thought Carnage was REALLY interesting was either during that major event where Heroes started acting like villains and vise versa and Deadpool vs Carnage cause it was the first time we got to see Carnage just genuinely give up and think while locking himself up in a jail cell.
3:54 Hmmm, Heath Leger's Joker is an AGENT OF CHAOS yet his one of the most iconic villains in movie history. So if Carnage is a one-note character then so is the Joker. Carnage has all the ingredients of being a great villain, it really depends on the writer and not every villain needs a sympathetic backstory or grey morality in order to be interesting. Honestly, all it takes is ONE good writer to change someone's perception of the character without the changing the character.
Heath ledger's joker is NOT an agent of chaos at all. He only said that to convince harvey to join him.
Carnage can't be analogous to Waluigi, since Waluigi isn't actually a bad guy, he's just a dude Wario knows and sometimes invites to play games with them lol
I like carnage simply because of the concept of it being inside Kasady's bloodstream. It's a cool concept
His simplicity is why we love him, he's just a murderous force of nature that you insert into a story to up the stakes bc you know he's gonna f sh*t up
Honestly the only time I enjoy Carnage was Lego Marvel video games because they got creative to make him fit in Lego world and they made him way too funny. Plus his Idle animation of hugging a teddy bear was way more interesting he ever been to me. Also Drake great video as always.
I gotta say, this is a BIG improvement from the Kang video, and this is coming from someone who likes Carnage a whole lot more than Kang. While I don’t necessarily agree with it, the criticisms in this video just make a lot more sense, and I can totally see where you’re coming from.
Carnage just does not mesh well with the rest of Spidey’s rouges gallery. The villains Spidey fought were never THAT heinous. Even classic GG killed Gwen more on a technicality than murderous intent. I think Carnage works better as a foil for Venom than Spider-Man.
I really like carnage because of his design and I do kinda like that he just kills for the sake of it but I would mind seeing a more in depth and more interesting version of him
I feel like that would take away the appeal of him like the moment you make him more than his epithet, more you take away the carnage
@@superthorc6894 I don't think he should be made more relatable or anything because well he's a serial killer but maybe just some more detailed stuff about him
the one note satanic evil psychopath of carnage’s personality is kinda why I love the character. He’s just an extremely violent murder with an alien that makes him a killing machine. For some people they want more from that but for me that fact that he kills for no good reason is what makes him so appealing to me and many others. Though I do see your point and agree with most of what you say.
I feel like the last decade of carnage has been great. Axus, carnageusa, fighting toxin, absolute carnage and whatever he’s doing right how with his own hive mind. I know it’s 1 dimensional but they keep upping the ante with him and that’s the coolest part. He went from serial killer to force of nature to herald of a god!
He’s an evil dude, and sometimes it’s okay to just wanna see venom and Spider-Man punch an evil dude in the face, especially when the one note evil dude has a design as cool as carnage
I have a joke. What is Carnage’s favorite car brand? I don’t know because Carnage is a fictional character.
What is Rice Factory’s favorite car brand, I don’t know because I don’t know them personally
What is.....
Life
You sir deserve a award
Man expects nuance from a serial killer, he should do stand up comedy
So I guess you missed all the parts where I explicitly said that that it's totally fine that he doesn't have nuance and that's just not the kind of character that I find enjoyable.
People hate you for the Invincible video, but I love you for your honest, earnest reviews. Art is subjective! Keep up the good work.
What’s wrong with the Invincible video?
@@marvelite2354 Nothing, in my opinion, but it got a lot of reacts.
Donny Cates Venom run was so good.
Arguably the best take on the character in years.
I personally enjoyed the Donny Cates run, but my absolute favorite is the Agent Venom series that was around near 2010 - 2011
@@justinriley Agreed I never expected a series to make me emotionally care about Eddie Brock and his family connections.
Venom and Hulk are the 2 best runs in Marvel
Thanks for calling out DC's overuse of TBWL as a side. The moment he put his brain into a dead Dr. Manhattan's body just sealed him as everything wrong with DC Comics as a whole.
Which issue is that?
Yup. Thank Darkseid they finally got rid of him, and DC's only improved since..... At least after Future State (Aside from Future State Nightwing because Dick Grayson can do no wrong) ended and Infinite Frontier rolled around, that is
@@astrobookwormsinger Dark Knights Death Metal #2.
As someone who absolutely adores Carnage I find it really interesting to hear the other side from someone who doesnt want to bite my head off for enjoying the character. I understand and honestly agree with some of your issues with him. Hes a particular kind of character that isn't necessarily meant for everyone and I think this video gets that across very well and in a way that should ( I repeat "SHOULDN'T") break out into all out war. Keep up the good work and love the videos man.
2:36 dis man spittin bars
"Yeah. Everyone totally remembers all of Venom's other kids and their cool 90s names, like Scream, Agony, Riot, Lasher, and Phage." Scream is the only one of those five that I remember for two reasons: (1) she was mentioned in one of Linkara's reviews and (2) I saw an issue featuring her at my local comic store and I got it because I was curious about there being other symbiotes beyond Venom and Carnage.
I remember Scream best from the Spider-Man ride at Universal
Carnage is a flavor that appeals to some and not others. He's a goofy slasher villain who is very flatly evil. That said he's always just an excuse to see very creative violent death and horror stuff. His late 2010's solo series is pretty fun even if it ends in a dumb way it wasn't trying to say anything profound from the beginning aside from the trauma that is explored with the daughter of some of the victims that sent him to prison initially.
I have to disagree I LOVED King in black it was such a dope series but I respect your opinion good video
Does that mean the Prowler is Luigi?
OOF but kinda true & I agree (except the "he sucks" part, he is kind of fun)
Exactly, it was a little clickbaity title.
@@gurentgc3546 nah as it's his opinion
Honestly Carnage as a force of nature is a great view on it, and I think seeing him less as a character and more of a animal or something is why I kinda find him interesting. He doesn't need motives, its just kinda instinct I guess?
I think his simplicity is fine. I like Freddy Krueger because he's not complex, he is a bastard. He knows it and kills not out of revenge, but sure sadism.
But I'm fine with you not liking him.
Everyone is allowed to have their opinion on a character. For me, Carnage is ok as a simple character, and it makes him even more fun.
He's not my favorite either, but things get interesting when he shows up.
As much as I love Carnage, the character is boring. It’s just the stories he’s in are fun. Like Absolute Carnage and now Extreme Carnage are fun just cuz they use the character in super interesting ways and get into the darker side of Marvel that you don’t see often.
Edit: Scream is a really fun character now too. This is coming from a guy who loves all the symbiote stuff though.
Eh to each their own. I just loved how a deranged serial killer became a prophet of a dark god and it literally takes the Avengers and Defenders along with Venom to stop him. Also his design in that series is *chef’s kiss*.
Don’t necessarily agree with “edgy”, Cates never did anything that wasn’t out of character for what Carnage would do. He’s full on done with the world and to use a very overused sentiment wants to see it burn and he’ll do it by any means necessary. He’s chaos incarnate and that’s it. But like I said, all opinions are valid and more than welcome disagreement
Ahhh yeah, makes total sense. Fortunately he goes back to the more classic design in future stuff but I love his first design in that series where he’s the big skeleton thing cuz that’s basically what he is: just a reanimated corpse piloting a piece of a dark god. Also no problem with the discussion, it pays to be civil
0:49 soooooo, you are telling me that all this is the exact truth and anyone who disagrees is stupid?
Honestly... I don't even like Venom. The concept of an alien black goo from out of space seems too antithetical to me to be related to a character as grounded as Spider-Man.
"I don't like disliking stuff"
Great statement Drake!
I usually try to get over what bugs me about a character or story arc and just enjoy......but that doesn't always work.
I am actually really liking the current Extreme Carnage mini-event. It differentiates the different non-Venom symbiotes and keeps Carnage mostly in the back, pulling the strings to some evil scheme. It's obviously not finished yet, but by now I'd even say that I'm enjoying it more than the last three years of Venom comics, because it's an action/slasher B-Movie type story, that the symbiotes are perfect for.
I'm also a fan of the original Toxin mini, but he quickly got turned into a just another monstrous symbiote, so I'm curious for Steve Orlando's newest take on him.
Well I am really enjoying the brutality and return of Flash Thompson in Extreme Carnage I do feel like it’s missing the emotional depth that Venom was hitting in arcs like Venom Beyond. Though I do think Ram V and Al Ewing will be able to maintain that quality when they take over Venom.
I like carnage because he is a villain that can get away with really , really bad stuff if you need someone to take over a entire town killing men women and children use carnage want a villain to throw a baby out a window trying to escape from Spiderman after going on a week long killing spree use carnage.
I always saw carnage as being a character that both writers and readers don't mind seeing him do really bad thing's without it makeing them mad say you made the lizard or craven do half the stuff carnage did there would be outcry but carnage is that safety net of horribleness and sometimes it's fun to see what he'll do next since he has the freedom to do whatever he wants that other villain's can't
I’m a full blown symbiote fan but I agree. Carnage is just the antagonist and is mainly just there to improve other stories. I completely agree with you though me personally I find his ultra simplicity very reassuring like a favorite book you’d read as a kid or song you put on repeat.
Carnage USA and Carnage Mind Bomb are my favorite Carnage comics. One is a big threat and the other goes deeper in his mind.
Carnage is like Marvel's Joker but without the charm.
I think Carnage was only supposed to be a one-off character that would make Venom and Spider-man team up and then just kind of throw him away but the character really blew up so Marvel kept using him
this was the most enjoyable video where its just about a different opinion than mine ive ever seen, the way you handle this video is so efficient at conveying that theyre just opinions instead of just saying "ohh this and this are blah blah blah" and acting like its objective facts. 10/10 great job
You raise a ton of valid points. Nothing you said is wrong about the character, but I still love Carnage, he’s one of the few style over substance characters from the 90s that works for me and I couldn’t tell you why or give you any counter points. I just think he’s neat.
As a kid who only knew of Carnage through the Spider-Man 90's animated series, and then slowly from there. He was one of my favourite toys. He has a great image and had a sweet introduction.
I cannot say how anything before or beyond that relates to anything, but I enjoy him, but probably more so that small sliver of him that I have in my memory.
3:29 I saw this picture in a spider-man compendium type book in second grade and until Drake said otherwise I always remembered that image, thinking Venom ate a baby.
I know you don't like Deadpool, but I felt the "Deadpool vs. Carnage" story did a good job giving Carnage direction in killing. Or I could be remembering wrongly since it's been years since I've read that
My favourite Venom spawn is Sleeper. He's the most recently introduced symbiote in Venom: First Host and I loved his character, especially at the end of the comic when he goes a darker route then what his parents wanted for him.
Apart from that, I love Anti-Venom, and Venom of course. Carnage is scary but that's all he has going, and if the movie gives him a deeper personality and motivation then that would be great
I have to admit being a Carnage fan myself (hearing about Absolute Carnage got be back into comic books) I have to respect your opinion and the way you presented it. You have a lot of good points and implementing then would only improve Carnage as a character. Ex. I'm not sure that going into Extreme Carnage right after King in Black was a great idea. While I am enjoying the event its a lot coming after 2 symbiote events in 2 years. Good video. I will be subscibing
I read a panel where the Enchantress has gathered a team of supervillains as a sort of Avengers like team and Carnage was apart of it and said, “I don’t know the difference between right and wrong”; I think writers should lean more into that side of Carnage, it has the potential to make him more interesting to explore a character who doesn’t think what he’s doing is wrong and thinks it’s just a way of having fun not realizing the damage and pain he causes to others.
“I’m not a crazy man, I’m a vengeful man” - Cletus Cassidy (Venom: Let there be Carnage); from the trailer it seems that they are making Carnage a more interesting character, I like the concept, but the problem is the writers don’t seem to explore his psychology that much and just have him as a one-not mass murderer.
Carnage being bonded with A serial killer is what makes him deep. His endless and sometimes seemingly unstoppable power and sporadic murder gives depth to his character and others. Hes not just some bad guy he's chaos immortalized.
I 100% disagree.. carnage is the most real personification of humanity darkest impulsive toward violence.
He is evil without the misguided delusions of purpose. An addict to violence that ain't looking for anything more than To enjoy the ride.. carnage is frighteningly real And he contrast with every other villain I'm the marvel universe cause he doesn't fit In with the other villains. .. he is a monster from a horror film like .. Freddy Krueger.. Chucky or ghostface in the first scream..
I’ve never read a book with carnage in probably why I’m hearing u out so much.
I don’t think there’s any bad characters just bad writers like u said
Not every character needs super elaborate motivation/backstories. Sometimes simple is best.
And just about everything is overused in comics these days.
There's a storyline in the comics where Cassidy is killing people and the police are trying to find out how he selected his victims,It's discovered that he just randomly picks a name in the phone book, that's fascinating to me
EDIT:[I made this before I watched the vid and this is pretty much what he said]
Carnage should only be used in like 1 movie he's a murder he's insane you can't really has that for more than once I'd have him be a very important part of a trilogy but die in the same movie at the end he's more of a 1 event rather than a recurring thing
I still wish we could have seen Greg Weisman's Carnage in Spectacular Spiderman...
I completely agree. I will say I LOVED him in Venomverse. He is used as a secret weapon. Then he is a prime target, referred to as an “anomaly” in Venomized (the sequel. I LOVED what they were doing in Carnage, and Carnage was technically both the hero and villain. Now he is the big villain again for the “Death of Venomverse” comics and also the Crimson Reign event. I hope they do something new and exciting again. I think it would be cool to see him potentially bond with someone more stable, and be humbled into an antihero. In maybe another time, or a universe without supers. That could be cool!
You pretty much hit the nail on the head about 5 minutes in as to why I like Carnage. He isn't as fun as The Joker or anything, but he's so unforgivingly evil and murderous that he always feels like a threat when he shows up. Great design, cool powers, makes for good fights. That's really all I need from the character personally.
I feel like I want one shot horror comics. Carnage in a small farm town. Carnage in a hospital. What it’s like for him to hunt and cause terror, you know?
I've always been on the "fuck Carnage" train. I've always hated him and the way I see some of his fans hype him up and almost look up to him, in a sense, makes me want to stay away from them. There are character's who don't have a lot of dimension to them who I like too, but at least the fans are either aware of this and/or said character does have something, anything, about them that gives them some charisma. Carnage has only been interesting during Axis and otherwise is there to make someone else look interesting. He, himself, is just a bland, at best, and terrible character. Someone can do something new and interesting with him but no one has taken the initiative to do so yet.
I like that Carnage is just there to cause Carnage and nothing else but it turns him into a plot device rather than a real character
I remember reading the comic that carnage appeared when a piece of venom shredded and became a symbiote and attacked to the serial killer. Since carnage is a baby and only developed and learned from the serial killer.
I like carnage but I definitely I understand why you don’t Drake and that’s perfectly fine.
Hey drake, I’m inclined to agree with you! You and Sal from comic pop definitely see eye to eye on this. Really enjoy you’re thoughtful video’s.Keep up the good work.
As someone who personally likes Carnage, I do agree about him being overused. I really don’t see the need for a new Carnage event after last year’s Absolute Carnage. Should have given him a break.
Carnage always struck me as Venom dumbed-down for real ADD readers. This video, ironically, gave me a better appreciation of Carnage.
If Venom is the Wario to Spider-Man's Mario, and Carnage the Waluigi to Venom's Wario, then who is the Luigi to Spider-Man's Mario?
Miles Morales?
@@RobinDJoker Totally.
I enjoy Carnage, but I also think he is overused. That's partly why I liked the Venom movie, it had Riot and not Carnage.
What i like about Carnage is he cant be stopped and since a symbiote stays with a host's personality after getting seperated that means hes unkillable and wont change of he's separated from Cassidy
6:24
“Yes, naturally it’s a symbiote bargin sale”
actually, in the dony cates run, they fleshed out why he is such a die hard murderer, he feels he is freeing people trapped in their bodies of flesh
I think you’re forgetting something about Carnage that is a little bit odd. Nothing major that will affect your opinion, but carnage isn’t just bonded to Cletus. Carnage IS Cletus, thanks to the blood bond.
I do wish they could do something new with him, but I’m fine with him being that slasher stereotype.
Also, if I’m misinformed somehow, my bad, but every version of Carnage I’ve seen pulls from that idea of him being one with the symbiote, not being a pair of two creatures. I’m fairly certain he, of all symbiotes, uses the pronoun “I” instead of we to show he has full control
Maybe have him be used more as a potential threat than an actual one, like terrorists threaten to release him from confinement if their demands are not met?