Your gear vs. hydro pull test from a while back says all you need to know about which transmission will climb better. Gear drive = more power to ground.
@@trajonduclos7931 Wish they offered a manual transmission in the BX LOL. Although with loader operation a hydro is a lot quicker and easier...but yes, if available get a manual if you wanna pull.
There's also the misconception that mashing the hst pedal equals more power, particularly when the throttle is tied to the pedal. When an hst is starting to lug on a hill the operator needs to LET OFF the pedal and raise the rpm.
That's the opposite of what people are used to. With a car, truck, etc. when they approach a hill they press harder on the "Gas" pedal, so their reaction on a tractor is to do the same thing with the hydrostatic pedal, mash that pedal to the floor it'll go faster....yeah, on flat ground without being under load LOL...not when going up a hill....with my BX2680 if I'm in high range, and have my roto tiller and front loader installed and try to climb the ramps onto my trailer, it stops moving forward....not like spinning the wheels, but it literally stops all forward motion....low range, 4WD, and light pedal application and it climbs right up no problems at all....have to pick the right range and go slower than your mind wants you to press on that pedal LOL
I used to mow an old dirty dirt dump with my tractor. This dump had massive hills that you couldn’t really mow sideways. So I would go up and down them. My tractor has a hydro transmission with 3 ranges. It could climb the hills in medium but did a lot better job in low.
I own a small Tractor service.. physical size is a major factor for me when looking at new tractors, the first thing I want to test is if the tractor can go up a hill in medium hydro gear... at full pedal... I carry full buckets of Gravel up driveways all the time. I have found the kubotas lx, l , even bx will do it. New H workmasters will not but a boomer will, mahindra of same size will, LS will not, Branson yes and Kioti/bobcat yes and Deere is very model specific. These are tractors in the 25 to 30hp range. Many tractor owners are not farmers where crawling speed performance is critical. Many, like myself, value the speed over ground while under load (full box blade, full bucket and uphill)to be more important than what can be done in low gear. I also compare the pto power of those same machines and find the pto performance better on machines with poor medium speed uphill performance. I would really appreciate a more detailed explanation on what makes one brand more suited than say another brands equivalent machine or possibly the hydro transmission differences.
I had this problem when I got my L2501. I need to mow uphill all summer long. I was pretty upset thinking the salesman sold me the wrong machine and it was too late to upgrade. Then I dropped my loader. That changed everything. Dropping all that dead weight allowed me to shift into M range and I can now mow in half the time it took me previously.
living on a hill with a 29HP hydro no dramas - wait till it is up to temp before going and run it around PTO RPMS all the time once up to temp. The only times it slows is 4wd up hill in wet weather running a large flail in tall grass or running the flail through shrubs the height of the rops - love the flail no removing fallen branches or small shrubs/tree in the way but a really nice finish that you and your dogs can walk on. It will start in high gear up hill with a full bucket of clay however there is an art to doing it and probably isn't a good idea from a frame damage perspective as it will bounce more. I would note that the maximum pump flow if you need power is 3000 RPM so if not running a PTO implement and want the flow/"power" - AKA hill, loaded bucket, backhoe or other hydraulic attachment; get those RPMS way up. Idling is not going to get you anywhere fast - yup ear muffs and get things done.
Loved Your Gear Vs Hydro Test. I Grew up Working with a Ford fn8 Those so called little tractors would pull a mountain of square hay bales. Then I started working at my Local Port. We would use John Deere 50Hp Tractors in mid gear number 2 to Pull 99 200lbs of Giant Rolls of Paper up to the Ship for loading. It is amazing how different the hydro Tractors are compared to Gear Drive. An those Old school John deere lasted 5 years 4000hours before needing rebuilt on the trannies. Now I'm into a Gear drive Kubota and Wouldn't look back. Best bang for the buck and Easier on fuel too then hydro tranny.
Took me a little bit to teach myself to let off on the hydro pedal to get more power while loading from a dirt pile, your brain tells you to push harder but then you start to stall,by letting up you keep the RPMs up thus getting more power to the wheels.
This video is interesting because i've always been amazed with how well our garden tractor climbs hills. Straight up a 30degree incline. And when we got a Kubota, it was an old manual trans with bad brakes, so I always make sure i'm in low range with high revs for fear of stalling. That thing will climb straight up a wall with the Asian market R2 tires.
Yes, the hydrostat pedal is not an accelerator, it's a "gear" range selector. Going up a hill, keep your foot where you want and add throttle up until you run out of horsepower.
One thing I have also noticed is the operator will not raise the RPM when putting the unit under load like that. You don’t need it all the way like you are running a bush hog but bringing it up off idle makes everything work a lot smoother
Any rule of thumb in cold weather of letting your tractor warm up to get the oils to operating temperatures so the tractor will operate better. Thanks Michael 😊
I start my tractor and let it run for 5-10 minutes before I start using it. At a minimum I'll start it and let it idle for 5 minutes before I move it out of the shop, and then it usually sits for another 5-10 minutes before I actually start putting it under any sort of load.
Good explanation Neil. Took me many years to learn this. I used to struggle with a 35 HP New Holland hydrostat. Kept telling our local dealer this tractor is way too wimpy. He couldn't explain to me as you just did why. I finally figured out after about 8 years and another New Holland with a manual transmission. Could've saved a lot of money had I known this.
It seems the takeaway is don't get a tractor to go fast. If you want to go fast, get a go cart. These machines were designed to pull like mad on relatively flat, smooth ground. The fact that lawns have grown exponentially larger is making them attractive to users unfamiliar with their operation hasn't yet been adequately addressed by the manufacturers. I've been working ag tractors for well over 50 years, and from my observations I'd say the most dangerous time for newer operators is after 2 to 5 years of use when familiarity has, as the saying goes, begun to breed contempt. Beware the folks who think they're pretty skilled after 400 hours of seat time.
Pulling hills with a hydrostatic transmission is easy. I do it all the time in West Virginia. Let off the gas and let the RPM's stay around 2400, and a tractor will go right up a hill even a steep one with no problem. I have a L2501 pulls with no issues. It is a tractor not a side by side.
My property only has flat areas where they where established via D9 Cat. It’s all hills and slopes. None of my tractors have ever been out of 4 low. Both are hydrostatic, both get around fine. But not fast!
The swash plate angle does not change the gear ratio at all... it changes how much fluid is being pumped. In the neutral position it pumps no fluid so you don't move, as you push the pedal down the angle changes which allows the pistons to start moving fluid, a shallow angle moves a small amount of fluid at low pressure the steeper the angle the more fluid and pressure you get. That means if you push the pedal down harder, you will go faster and you will be applying more power to the ground. I think were people confuse this as being a higher gear ratio come from the fact that, the harder you push the pedal the more power hydrostatic pump needs from the tractors engine, in order to push the higher volumes and pressures through the pump. This can cause your tractor to bog or stall if it doesn't have enough hp for its Hydrostatic Pump size, tractor weight, and gearing. Remember that with a lot of these tractors the 25hp model might have the same transmission and mass as the 45hp model... Conclusion a lot of Hydro tractors are simply under powered for there size.
So I bought a new Kabota M4 it had no power going uphill. And I took it to the dealership three times and they said I should’ve bought a bigger tractor. and I finally had it after two years and took it back up there and they said oh there’s a Service bulletin on bad injectors come to find out three of the four injectors were bad and I had to deal with that for two years. While making payments on a brand new piece of garbage. The Kabota rep came out and drove my tractor said it was completely fine and normal For it to bog down going uphill. Now it runs fine drives up the biggest hills no problem. Kabota just tries to keep everything out of the dealership when it’s under warranty
My ol 3901DT never bogged on a hill... 1st or 2nd gear low or hi... 3rd is asking more than necessary. Low n Slow... It'll pull a house down uphill. Long live my Manual Trans.
That last thing you want to do is go up a hill fast. You need to feel the side and front balance. It's the difference between a close call, a tip, or a tip and roll. Slow is good. Going up in reverse is good. 4 wheel drive is good. Heavy weights on the wheels are good. Going fast is not good...I've had close calls on hills and it's made me take them much more seriously. Small hills, holes, bumps, etc...can all throw a tractor off balance if you're going too fast.
This is the exact same complaint passed along to my Bobcat dealer about my CT2040 compact tractor purchase. Messick's response is what I would appreciated from them. All I got from my dealer was a shrug of the shoulders.
Our gun range has a lot of roll. Read hills. We went much bigger in tractor than one would normally assume. For example, the smallest Kubota we looked at was a M4-71. Ultimately we did call Messicks (during pandemic) looking for a M5-111. None to be had then. Ended up with a Large Frame 75hp, 11,000lb, cabbed unit, with wheel weights and fluid in the Ag tires. Tractors will climb hills. But if you want to go fast, get a UTV. Finally…who the heck doesn’t warm up their tractor? Or any diesel machine? Regards, Marky
I start my tractor and let it sit for at least 5 minutes before I move it out of the shop but then it sits outside the shop for another 5-10 minutes idling before I even put it under any sort of load, while I'm gathering up tools and stuff for whatever project I'm getting ready to tackle. During the winter though, it just sits in the shop, don't have any need for it in the winter.
I bought a new Workmaster 25 HST. It was worthless in high range. Shouldn't even come with a high range. Took it back and bought a Workmaster 40 HST. If I could do it over again I'd get the Workmaster 35 Gear Drive. I'd save thousands and have more power. Live and learn....
Because I hated the whine of a hydrostat when I bought my tractor I bought the shuttle drive and 12 years later I still prefer it. The only change I would like to try is R14 tires.
If only the small tractors had an option of a shuttle shift, or manual transmission....I don't think the BX ever had a manual option, I know there isn't an option now, its hydro or nothing LOL. I wish my BX2680 had a manual transmission of some sort sometimes especially when I'm just out mowing. Loader work the hydro is nice, but from what I understand a shuttle shift would be extremely easy too as you can shift between forward and reverse very easily/quickly without the clutch.
My 35 hp tractor has a shuttle shift but you have to clutch it which trust me is no big deal. Some bigger models have a power shuttle which doesn't require clutching. That will be my next tractor if I upgrade but at my age now I'm down to mostly snow clearing in the winter my summer projects are all complete.
@@richardl.993 Thank you for the insight...clutching isn't an issue at all, shifting while trying to operate the loader would be one of those times you need 3 hands LOL. But with the shuttle shift it makes it easy, even with the clutch based models for sure.
Good video but should have talked about the weight of the loader and bucket. If I do not have weight on the rear axle I have trouble going up hills because of the weight of the bucket. I frequently turn on the 4WD for just going up and down hills.
Nice too know that about those little tractor about the transmission. Know one told me that when I bought it. Thanks for that info. I use mine for backhoe work n tilling garden that’s about it.I’ve all ways had two tractor,cause all the time need a big one. Just to get the job done.
I drove up a steep hill dozens of times taking loads from my old driveway to make a trail to my well. BX2380. Only thing I had to do was put it in 4x because it was actually slippery. I had a bucket full of dirt and my box blade with 20 ft of 1/2-in chain hanging off the back as counterweight.
And sometimes the ever elusive common sense is all that’s needed to understand, a 25-30 HP tractor is not going to pull a 30 degree hill in high range at 13 mph… 😩
Hi Neil, off subject here , but wondered about your thoughts on adding a tooth bar to a bucket. I have an MX 6000 with the standard loader/ bucket. I’ve read mixed reviews, some say it can damage your bucket. Thanks much for your input and all your educational vids. Kel
I have a lx3310 and I use it at 8200-8800 feet. Yes I run out of power in high gear on the road pulling a grade going to my neighbors place. Low gear I can spin my loaded tires all day working.
My M7060 is a turd up hills. In road gear I have to downshift 2 or 3 gears to get up even slight grades on pavement. My L5040 I had would climb any hill around in high gear. Granted, the 5040 was around 18 mph, where the 7060 is 24. Still, a 70 horse tractor should be able to zip around better then it does.
The hydro tranny is the biggest problem up or down a hill, had a old 16hp diesel gear drive compact and with the rear in lo and transmission in lo you could use the engine to crawl down steep hills without the tires breaking lose that you couldn't even think about with a hydro and pretty much the same going up not to mention the hp loss.
So lets compare a L 3302 to a L 3902. Eveeryone always says the advantage of a larger engine in the same chasis is more pto power. Would the L 3902 also go up a hill easier with evereything else being equal? Or is the Hydro pump the limiting factor and they would pull the hill equally?
Pretty easy to deduce. If you have the tractor in low range and light on the pedal for a hydrostatic tranny...if the engine bogs down... then it's horsepower.
This is a very important question. It strikes right at the heart of the matter. Neil's hill climbing video is absolutely marvelous, as all of his educational videos are. There is simply no one on the internet who teaches us like Neil Messick. We learned why an L 2501/2502 can have challenges on hills. How about an L3301/3302 vs. an L 3901/3902? At what point is the horsepower of the L series enough to go up a hill really well? I have an HST L 2501 with a loader and wheel fluid ballast etc. and I live in the mountains of New Mexico at 7,600 feet. I find that Neil's tip to not" toe" the HST paddle "to go fast" going uphill but to "heel" the HST pedal going uphill works perfectly. Yeah, it is counterintuitive until you get used to it. In any event, this was a great video. Using this heel-toe technique, the L 2501 has been great. And I am talking very steep hills up here in the high country. Thank you, Neil and thank you @dustinslance6747.
I have no idea why anyone would pay top dollar for a hydrostatic transmission. They put so much less HP to the ground, the oil changes, warm up time and everything else. Is it so important to have that gas pedal style of driving? And listening to all that whining from the pumps? I think the glide shift is the way to go. Just select a gear and go. Plus you get the HP you need to pull a mould board plow or other ground engaging equipment.
My dad just bought a brand new mahindra compact and it absolutely will not mow the slight incline in his yard without stopping in place in low gear. We aren’t talking some extreme angle, it’s about what a handicap ramp is. It’s the worst 30 grand I’ve ever seen someone spend. Say no to hydrostatic compacts, take my word for it
Hmmm...what do I know, original from Europe in Canada now. Big surprise calcium loaded rear tires when I bought my first tractor. The second one, I ask for no calcium in the tires. Lets not talk brands, before I borrowed a 50 horsepower tractor from a neighbor, going up the hill to my place had to shift down twice, just regular transmission, it was 30 years ago. The tractor I bought 60 horsepower, turbo charged, regular transmission no calcium in the tires to drag up that hill, just went up the hill in the big gear without any shifting down.
My Kubota can climb up a hill so good its scary. Its a Grand L 4060. I have no idea what this video is even proposing? My tractor scares me sometimes when it claws over stuff and hills.
@@xephael3485 because a clutch is out of adjustment? Nah. Had one that would work ok in low gear on flat ground, but would climb a terraced hill I was planting. Former owner had sold it to me cheap thinking it needed a new clutch. Some linkage had worked its way loose. Put it back to specs and it pulled like an ox.
That moment when a steam tractor has better hill climbing capabilities (edit, than some new tractors, im looking at you LS tractors of Wagner rental that thing was barely able to move on flat ground but that might be just that one machine in particular) I'm personally wondering if my jd5400 didn't sustain transmission damage from climbing my 500 ft farm on a hill 3 times a week for the first year i had it and having all the hydraulic oil in the back of the transmission as it preforms its job ,, or if it was leftover damage from the last owner that showed itself
Most steam traction engines running at operating pressure are going to pull a hill as good as or better then most modern tractors. And a lot of them are over 100 years old . Sorry as a traction engine owner, I has to chime in on ur comment 😂
@Primerk5 hey I've seen your videos before I like the peerless I'm trying to learn about traction engines I want to run a sawmill off one I'm looking for advice, Literature,personal experience etc you have any?
@Primerk5 the listing said its a 3by9 Frick believe its a 32 tooth blade just from seeing a quarter of the blade however I can't confirm this until the end of the month waiting on a bonus to get the mill so it could sell in the meantime if it sells ill be on the search for the same size again want to put it on a trailer to take to steam shows in Ohio as well edit just subed and wrote your channel down if I get this mill I'll contact you on your channel and leave my g mail so we can chat and I can figure out what I'm missing for knowledge before diving into traction engines
You totally didn’t mention the single biggest problem with tractors and power problems in today’s world……. ALGAE IN THE FUEL TANK!!!! With there be No Sulphur in Diesel Fuel anymore this has become a major issue. You really need to do a video on this issue in detail and how to try and prevent it from happening.
What if you have a farm in Southern Wisconsin, northern Illinois or Eastern Iowa? What would you do for a tractor in that case? (The driftless area where there are lots of hills. )
I swear every hydro since shaft driven Sundstrand 15 series just sucks. My brother who has a newer JD garden tractor was rather shocked at the pulling power of my Simplicity Sunstar 20hp. It's because the 15 series hydro is just an absolute beast.
I have wanted to buy a tractor for years. I have 12 acres in the foothills with only 2 of them being graded flat and level. The rest are hills ranging anywhere from 15 to 40 degree slopes. Can someone safely and practically run a tractor in this environment? Primary use is trail building and maintenance as well as land repair from badger digs throughout that can destroy acres and acres. Thanks in advance for any advice or comments.
I was expecting like traction and tire. Since I haven't had a tractor climb a hill, heck most of them would climb a tree if it would hold it. But not climbing as fast as one want. Ahhhh
That's because the operators are fools and they can't handle something that complicated.. and the tractor manufacturers are sick of warranties on gearboxes
People with their toy tractors, trying to pull a hill in high range. I've pulled 8000 lb grape bins up hills with a 30hp gear drive without a problem. Rented a 40hp hydrostat one harvest; biggest pain to use, constantly swapping ranges. Buy a tractor with a real transmission and learn how to use it, you'll be fine.
None of these new tractors have any lugging capability compared to the older ones it’s all the emissions and electronics they just fall on there face geared or not I know I own several new and old tractors of varying sizes
In your experience would this apply to Manual transmissions as well? I would think not. And why would anyone want to rip uphill? Maybe a red tag sale on isle 24? Pun intended. Cheers.
You would just manually select a gear that'll get you up the hill, even with a hydrostatic transaxle, you do the same thing, low or medium range depending on how steep the hill is to get up the hill, with either type of transmission you'll not climb the hill at the same speed the tractor would be going if you were on flat ground with the hydrostatic pedal to the floor, or in top gear with a manual tractor....in fact with a manual tractor you very well could stall it if you were in too high of a gear....with a hydro, I'm not sure if it would stall it or just stop moving forward....if I have my roto tiller and loader on my little Kubota BX2680, and try to climb the ramps onto my trailer it'll stop moving if I'm in high range, have to use low range to get up the ramps with all that weight...but it don't stall the tractor it just stops moving forward.
@@wildbill23c My comment was a pun intended, having much experience with gear drive and hydrostatic trans I well know the ability's and short cummings of farm tractors and construction equipment. I was more curious why people think tractors can speed up hill, a dangerous endeavor to the uninitiated. Still, thanks' for the reply. Cheers.
@@johnambro7181 Very true. Anytime I'm using my tractor being in a hurry isn't anything of importance...I got a tractor to keep me from having to do all the heavier lifting and dirt/gravel moving chores by hand...that tractor saves countless hours of work, sitting on it and operating it ain't much work in comparison, I'm not in any hurry when I get to do tractor work, I enjoy it LOL.
@@johnambro7181 Well, my BX2680 isn't exactly fast, so you won't be going anywhere in record time...well I guess unless you are trying to have the slowest record HAHA!!! Those B-Series machines are nice, wouldn't mind one but have no need for anything larger on my 1 acre property.
Too much weight on the front and not enough weight/ballast on the back can see you spinning wheels and not getting the traction you think you should have.
Your gear vs. hydro pull test from a while back says all you need to know about which transmission will climb better. Gear drive = more power to ground.
🏆
Amen. Skip the hydro. Learn to shift.
I say change the turbo change the fuel pump needs a hotter button
@@trajonduclos7931 Wish they offered a manual transmission in the BX LOL. Although with loader operation a hydro is a lot quicker and easier...but yes, if available get a manual if you wanna pull.
@@trajonduclos7931 Useless for loader work. Hydro is best.
There's also the misconception that mashing the hst pedal equals more power, particularly when the throttle is tied to the pedal. When an hst is starting to lug on a hill the operator needs to LET OFF the pedal and raise the rpm.
That's the opposite of what people are used to. With a car, truck, etc. when they approach a hill they press harder on the "Gas" pedal, so their reaction on a tractor is to do the same thing with the hydrostatic pedal, mash that pedal to the floor it'll go faster....yeah, on flat ground without being under load LOL...not when going up a hill....with my BX2680 if I'm in high range, and have my roto tiller and front loader installed and try to climb the ramps onto my trailer, it stops moving forward....not like spinning the wheels, but it literally stops all forward motion....low range, 4WD, and light pedal application and it climbs right up no problems at all....have to pick the right range and go slower than your mind wants you to press on that pedal LOL
Low range and four wheel drive have worked on hills for me. Hard to work on hills, for a variety of reasons.
I used to mow an old dirty dirt dump with my tractor. This dump had massive hills that you couldn’t really mow sideways. So I would go up and down them. My tractor has a hydro transmission with 3 ranges. It could climb the hills in medium but did a lot better job in low.
I own a small Tractor service.. physical size is a major factor for me when looking at new tractors, the first thing I want to test is if the tractor can go up a hill in medium hydro gear... at full pedal... I carry full buckets of Gravel up driveways all the time. I have found the kubotas lx, l , even bx will do it. New H workmasters will not but a boomer will, mahindra of same size will, LS will not, Branson yes and Kioti/bobcat yes and Deere is very model specific. These are tractors in the 25 to 30hp range. Many tractor owners are not farmers where crawling speed performance is critical. Many, like myself, value the speed over ground while under load (full box blade, full bucket and uphill)to be more important than what can be done in low gear. I also compare the pto power of those same machines and find the pto performance better on machines with poor medium speed uphill performance. I would really appreciate a more detailed explanation on what makes one brand more suited than say another brands equivalent machine or possibly the hydro transmission differences.
I had this problem when I got my L2501. I need to mow uphill all summer long. I was pretty upset thinking the salesman sold me the wrong machine and it was too late to upgrade. Then I dropped my loader. That changed everything. Dropping all that dead weight allowed me to shift into M range and I can now mow in half the time it took me previously.
living on a hill with a 29HP hydro no dramas - wait till it is up to temp before going and run it around PTO RPMS all the time once up to temp.
The only times it slows is 4wd up hill in wet weather running a large flail in tall grass or running the flail through shrubs the height of the rops - love the flail no removing fallen branches or small shrubs/tree in the way but a really nice finish that you and your dogs can walk on.
It will start in high gear up hill with a full bucket of clay however there is an art to doing it and probably isn't a good idea from a frame damage perspective as it will bounce more.
I would note that the maximum pump flow if you need power is 3000 RPM so if not running a PTO implement and want the flow/"power" - AKA hill, loaded bucket, backhoe or other hydraulic attachment; get those RPMS way up. Idling is not going to get you anywhere fast - yup ear muffs and get things done.
I'm giving it all she's got Capton.
More power!
Loved Your Gear Vs Hydro Test. I Grew up Working with a Ford fn8 Those so called little tractors would pull a mountain of square hay bales. Then I started working at my Local Port. We would use John Deere 50Hp Tractors in mid gear number 2 to Pull 99 200lbs of Giant Rolls of Paper up to the Ship for loading. It is amazing how different the hydro Tractors are compared to Gear Drive. An those Old school John deere lasted 5 years 4000hours before needing rebuilt on the trannies. Now I'm into a Gear drive Kubota and Wouldn't look back. Best bang for the buck and Easier on fuel too then hydro tranny.
This video is very beneficial and will save owners money. Alot less maintenance cost and some good safety points.
Took me a little bit to teach myself to let off on the hydro pedal to get more power while loading from a dirt pile, your brain tells you to push harder but then you start to stall,by letting up you keep the RPMs up thus getting more power to the wheels.
This video is interesting because i've always been amazed with how well our garden tractor climbs hills. Straight up a 30degree incline. And when we got a Kubota, it was an old manual trans with bad brakes, so I always make sure i'm in low range with high revs for fear of stalling. That thing will climb straight up a wall with the Asian market R2 tires.
Yes, the hydrostat pedal is not an accelerator, it's a "gear" range selector. Going up a hill, keep your foot where you want and add throttle up until you run out of horsepower.
One thing I have also noticed is the operator will not raise the RPM when putting the unit under load like that. You don’t need it all the way like you are running a bush hog but bringing it up off idle makes everything work a lot smoother
Neil…this is definitely one of my Top 5 videos of yours! Thank you for sharing!!
Any rule of thumb in cold weather of letting your tractor warm up to get the oils to operating temperatures so the tractor will operate better. Thanks Michael 😊
I start my tractor and let it run for 5-10 minutes before I start using it. At a minimum I'll start it and let it idle for 5 minutes before I move it out of the shop, and then it usually sits for another 5-10 minutes before I actually start putting it under any sort of load.
Magnetic engine heater on reservoir can help.
Good explanation Neil. Took me many years to learn this. I used to struggle with a 35 HP New Holland hydrostat. Kept telling our local dealer this tractor is way too wimpy. He couldn't explain to me as you just did why. I finally figured out after about 8 years and another New Holland with a manual transmission. Could've saved a lot of money had I known this.
It seems the takeaway is don't get a tractor to go fast. If you want to go fast, get a go cart. These machines were designed to pull like mad on relatively flat, smooth ground. The fact that lawns have grown exponentially larger is making them attractive to users unfamiliar with their operation hasn't yet been adequately addressed by the manufacturers. I've been working ag tractors for well over 50 years, and from my observations I'd say the most dangerous time for newer operators is after 2 to 5 years of use when familiarity has, as the saying goes, begun to breed contempt. Beware the folks who think they're pretty skilled after 400 hours of seat time.
Shuttle shift and ag tires just like the farmers use, works for me
Great information, Neill! You guys continue to lead the pack in education!!!
Pulling hills with a hydrostatic transmission is easy. I do it all the time in West Virginia. Let off the gas and let the RPM's stay around 2400, and a tractor will go right up a hill even a steep one with no problem. I have a L2501 pulls with no issues. It is a tractor not a side by side.
My property only has flat areas where they where established via D9 Cat. It’s all hills and slopes. None of my tractors have ever been out of 4 low. Both are hydrostatic, both get around fine. But not fast!
Thanks that’s very interesting. Especially the part about the swash plate never knew about that.
The swash plate angle does not change the gear ratio at all... it changes how much fluid is being pumped. In the neutral position it pumps no fluid so you don't move, as you push the pedal down the angle changes which allows the pistons to start moving fluid, a shallow angle moves a small amount of fluid at low pressure the steeper the angle the more fluid and pressure you get. That means if you push the pedal down harder, you will go faster and you will be applying more power to the ground.
I think were people confuse this as being a higher gear ratio come from the fact that, the harder you push the pedal the more power hydrostatic pump needs from the tractors engine, in order to push the higher volumes and pressures through the pump. This can cause your tractor to bog or stall if it doesn't have enough hp for its Hydrostatic Pump size, tractor weight, and gearing. Remember that with a lot of these tractors the 25hp model might have the same transmission and mass as the 45hp model... Conclusion a lot of Hydro tractors are simply under powered for there size.
So I bought a new Kabota M4 it had no power going uphill. And I took it to the dealership three times and they said I should’ve bought a bigger tractor. and I finally had it after two years and took it back up there and they said oh there’s a Service bulletin on bad injectors come to find out three of the four injectors were bad and I had to deal with that for two years. While making payments on a brand new piece of garbage. The Kabota rep came out and drove my tractor said it was completely fine and normal For it to bog down going uphill. Now it runs fine drives up the biggest hills no problem. Kabota just tries to keep everything out of the dealership when it’s under warranty
Very useful info. Also, if the tractor is older with a clutch, the clutch may be worn out and needs attention.
My ol 3901DT never bogged on a hill... 1st or 2nd gear low or hi...
3rd is asking more than necessary. Low n Slow... It'll pull a house down uphill.
Long live my Manual Trans.
That last thing you want to do is go up a hill fast. You need to feel the side and front balance. It's the difference between a close call, a tip, or a tip and roll. Slow is good. Going up in reverse is good. 4 wheel drive is good. Heavy weights on the wheels are good. Going fast is not good...I've had close calls on hills and it's made me take them much more seriously. Small hills, holes, bumps, etc...can all throw a tractor off balance if you're going too fast.
This is the exact same complaint passed along to my Bobcat dealer about my CT2040 compact tractor purchase. Messick's response is what I would appreciated from them. All I got from my dealer was a shrug of the shoulders.
Slow down kids, and enjoy the ride! My father would’ve almost solid his soul for the equipment I have today!! 😊
Our gun range has a lot of roll. Read hills. We went much bigger in tractor than one would normally assume.
For example, the smallest Kubota we looked at was a M4-71. Ultimately we did call Messicks (during pandemic) looking for a M5-111.
None to be had then.
Ended up with a Large Frame 75hp, 11,000lb, cabbed unit, with wheel weights and fluid in the Ag tires.
Tractors will climb hills. But if you want to go fast, get a UTV.
Finally…who the heck doesn’t warm up their tractor? Or any diesel machine?
Regards,
Marky
I start my tractor and let it sit for at least 5 minutes before I move it out of the shop but then it sits outside the shop for another 5-10 minutes idling before I even put it under any sort of load, while I'm gathering up tools and stuff for whatever project I'm getting ready to tackle. During the winter though, it just sits in the shop, don't have any need for it in the winter.
@@wildbill23c Yeah. Our policy to let it warm up at least 15 minutes, and even then it’s still cold.
I've been using my 14 l3800dt as a mini skidder since new. No prob on hills, mud,ice. Stills like new
I bought a new Workmaster 25 HST. It was worthless in high range. Shouldn't even come with a high range. Took it back and bought a Workmaster 40 HST. If I could do it over again I'd get the Workmaster 35 Gear Drive. I'd save thousands and have more power. Live and learn....
My LX2610 hydro climbs hills fine. My one complaint is the loud whine the hydro makes and it’s is much worse backing up. It is a 2021 cab model.
Gots to "luv" that go-pedal they "Sold" you on.
Because I hated the whine of a hydrostat when I bought my tractor I bought the shuttle drive and 12 years later I still prefer it. The only change I would like to try is R14 tires.
If only the small tractors had an option of a shuttle shift, or manual transmission....I don't think the BX ever had a manual option, I know there isn't an option now, its hydro or nothing LOL. I wish my BX2680 had a manual transmission of some sort sometimes especially when I'm just out mowing. Loader work the hydro is nice, but from what I understand a shuttle shift would be extremely easy too as you can shift between forward and reverse very easily/quickly without the clutch.
My 35 hp tractor has a shuttle shift but you have to clutch it which trust me is no big deal. Some bigger models have a power shuttle which doesn't require clutching. That will be my next tractor if I upgrade but at my age now I'm down to mostly snow clearing in the winter my summer projects are all complete.
@@richardl.993 Thank you for the insight...clutching isn't an issue at all, shifting while trying to operate the loader would be one of those times you need 3 hands LOL. But with the shuttle shift it makes it easy, even with the clutch based models for sure.
Good video but should have talked about the weight of the loader and bucket. If I do not have weight on the rear axle I have trouble going up hills because of the weight of the bucket. I frequently turn on the 4WD for just going up and down hills.
Reason # 2 is Very Key. Thanks.
Nice too know that about those little tractor about the transmission. Know one told me that when I bought it. Thanks for that info. I use mine for backhoe work n tilling garden that’s about it.I’ve all ways had two tractor,cause all the time need a big one. Just to get the job done.
I drove up a steep hill dozens of times taking loads from my old driveway to make a trail to my well. BX2380. Only thing I had to do was put it in 4x because it was actually slippery. I had a bucket full of dirt and my box blade with 20 ft of 1/2-in chain hanging off the back as counterweight.
Neal trying to move the dusty gear drive inventory that doesn’t sell 😂
And sometimes the ever elusive common sense is all that’s needed to understand, a 25-30 HP tractor is not going to pull a 30 degree hill in high range at 13 mph… 😩
Great video, thanks!👍🏻
Hi Neil, off subject here , but wondered about your thoughts on adding a tooth bar to a bucket. I have an MX 6000 with the standard loader/ bucket. I’ve read mixed reviews, some say it can damage your bucket. Thanks much for your input and all your educational vids. Kel
Do it.
@@MessicksEquipThanks much for getting back to w Neil. Kel
Perfect Neil… Thank you
I don't have this issue with my gear drive L2501.😛
I have a lx3310 and I use it at 8200-8800 feet. Yes I run out of power in high gear on the road pulling a grade going to my neighbors place. Low gear I can spin my loaded tires all day working.
My M7060 is a turd up hills. In road gear I have to downshift 2 or 3 gears to get up even slight grades on pavement. My L5040 I had would climb any hill around in high gear. Granted, the 5040 was around 18 mph, where the 7060 is 24. Still, a 70 horse tractor should be able to zip around better then it does.
Thse newer machines with more gears don't have the torque of the older tractors of the 70s and 80s
Thanks, Neil! Can you give us some safety tips on going down hills? Thanks again! 🐻
The hydro tranny is the biggest problem up or down a hill, had a old 16hp diesel gear drive compact and with the rear in lo and transmission in lo you could use the engine to crawl down steep hills without the tires breaking lose that you couldn't even think about with a hydro and pretty much the same going up not to mention the hp loss.
Hydrostatic sucks unless one is doing lighter duty, repetitive work where cycle times matter.
So lets compare a L 3302 to a L 3902. Eveeryone always says the advantage of a larger engine in the same chasis is more pto power. Would the L 3902 also go up a hill easier with evereything else being equal? Or is the Hydro pump the limiting factor and they would pull the hill equally?
I'd 100% love to find a way to do this well.
@@MessicksEquip Make it happen Neil. I would really like to know the answer!
Pretty easy to deduce. If you have the tractor in low range and light on the pedal for a hydrostatic tranny...if the engine bogs down... then it's horsepower.
This is a very important question. It strikes right at the heart of the matter. Neil's hill climbing video is absolutely marvelous, as all of his educational videos are. There is simply no one on the internet who teaches us like Neil Messick. We learned why an L 2501/2502 can have challenges on hills. How about an L3301/3302 vs. an L 3901/3902? At what point is the horsepower of the L series enough to go up a hill really well? I have an HST L 2501 with a loader and wheel fluid ballast etc. and I live in the mountains of New Mexico at 7,600 feet. I find that Neil's tip to not" toe" the HST paddle "to go fast" going uphill but to "heel" the HST pedal going uphill works perfectly. Yeah, it is counterintuitive until you get used to it. In any event, this was a great video. Using this heel-toe technique, the L 2501 has been great. And I am talking very steep hills up here in the high country. Thank you, Neil and thank you @dustinslance6747.
@@rgd2598 Sure but how does that compare to the same frame tractor with different horsepower? That is the question.
Great video, Neil!
Take a shot of whiskey each time Neil says“kind of” or “sort of”
If lots of snow on the ground, you may simply require aggressive chains.
I have a 55hp Apollo ( Chinese) it weighs near 3 ton and will climb a mountain.4x4 shuttle shift
It's the nut behind the steering wheel. Always :-)
Don’t let your fuel tank get to low while working on hills, higher chances of getting air in your fuel line.
Great video!
My LX3310 hates high range, but it’s a billy goat in Low 4wd
I have no idea why anyone would pay top dollar for a hydrostatic transmission. They put so much less HP to the ground, the oil changes, warm up time and everything else. Is it so important to have that gas pedal style of driving? And listening to all that whining from the pumps?
I think the glide shift is the way to go. Just select a gear and go. Plus you get the HP you need to pull a mould board plow or other ground engaging equipment.
Glideshift was great, they don't sell it anymore.
You got the swash plate backwards for the motor. The more it is tilled the more power you will have but less speed.
My dad just bought a brand new mahindra compact and it absolutely will not mow the slight incline in his yard without stopping in place in low gear. We aren’t talking some extreme angle, it’s about what a handicap ramp is. It’s the worst 30 grand I’ve ever seen someone spend. Say no to hydrostatic compacts, take my word for it
The Doug DeMuro of 🚜 🚜
Bring back the old opening!
Hmmm...what do I know, original from Europe in Canada now. Big surprise calcium loaded rear tires when I bought my first tractor. The second one, I ask for no calcium in the tires. Lets not talk brands, before I borrowed a 50 horsepower tractor from a neighbor, going up the hill to my place had to shift down twice, just regular transmission, it was 30 years ago. The tractor I bought 60 horsepower, turbo charged, regular transmission no calcium in the tires to drag up that hill, just went up the hill in the big gear without any shifting down.
My Kubota can climb up a hill so good its scary. Its a Grand L 4060. I have no idea what this video is even proposing? My tractor scares me sometimes when it claws over stuff and hills.
Or the clutch is out or out of adjustment.
Buy a new tractor
@@xephael3485 because a clutch is out of adjustment? Nah. Had one that would work ok in low gear on flat ground, but would climb a terraced hill I was planting. Former owner had sold it to me cheap thinking it needed a new clutch. Some linkage had worked its way loose. Put it back to specs and it pulled like an ox.
@@MusicandMachines no trade it in for a new EPA approved tractor.. low monthly payments 🤪
That moment when a steam tractor has better hill climbing capabilities (edit, than some new tractors, im looking at you LS tractors of Wagner rental that thing was barely able to move on flat ground but that might be just that one machine in particular) I'm personally wondering if my jd5400 didn't sustain transmission damage from climbing my 500 ft farm on a hill 3 times a week for the first year i had it and having all the hydraulic oil in the back of the transmission as it preforms its job ,, or if it was leftover damage from the last owner that showed itself
Most steam traction engines running at operating pressure are going to pull a hill as good as or better then most modern tractors. And a lot of them are over 100 years old . Sorry as a traction engine owner, I has to chime in on ur comment 😂
@Primerk5 hey I've seen your videos before I like the peerless I'm trying to learn about traction engines I want to run a sawmill off one I'm looking for advice, Literature,personal experience etc you have any?
@@wesbrackmanthercenthusiast4695 awesome, DM me and we can chat. Need to know what you are working with.
@Primerk5 the listing said its a 3by9 Frick believe its a 32 tooth blade just from seeing a quarter of the blade however I can't confirm this until the end of the month waiting on a bonus to get the mill so it could sell in the meantime if it sells ill be on the search for the same size again want to put it on a trailer to take to steam shows in Ohio as well edit just subed and wrote your channel down if I get this mill I'll contact you on your channel and leave my g mail so we can chat and I can figure out what I'm missing for knowledge before diving into traction engines
@@Primerk5 They'll pull anything just not very fast LOL....what is the top speed? I've heard like 3-5mph?
So with a hydrostat don't push the pedal to the floor, keep it steady, say light to mid push on the pedal?
Yup
You totally didn’t mention the single biggest problem with tractors and power problems in today’s world……. ALGAE IN THE FUEL TANK!!!! With there be No Sulphur in Diesel Fuel anymore this has become a major issue. You really need to do a video on this issue in detail and how to try and prevent it from happening.
What if you have a farm in Southern Wisconsin, northern Illinois or Eastern Iowa? What would you do for a tractor in that case? (The driftless area where there are lots of hills. )
I swear every hydro since shaft driven Sundstrand 15 series just sucks. My brother who has a newer JD garden tractor was rather shocked at the pulling power of my Simplicity Sunstar 20hp. It's because the 15 series hydro is just an absolute beast.
when does the lx4020 come out?
I have wanted to buy a tractor for years. I have 12 acres in the foothills with only 2 of them being graded flat and level. The rest are hills ranging anywhere from 15 to 40 degree slopes. Can someone safely and practically run a tractor in this environment?
Primary use is trail building and maintenance as well as land repair from badger digs throughout that can destroy acres and acres.
Thanks in advance for any advice or comments.
personally, I'd be looking at renting a compact track loader or dozer for hills that steep.
Neil,
Thanks very much for your input. I thought those angles would be pushing it for a tractor.
ATB,
Michael
Number 1 and number 5 are not the problem! The problem is number 2!
I dunno, never had any issues with my 100 series Massey's
I was expecting like traction and tire. Since I haven't had a tractor climb a hill, heck most of them would climb a tree if it would hold it.
But not climbing as fast as one want. Ahhhh
Guessing old gear drives dont have this issue that much
I find more tractor owners don’t give enough rpm i climb a steep road with 2380 2650 and 7060 without any issues in road gear
I prefer an manual transmission witch I don't see much anymore!
That's because the operators are fools and they can't handle something that complicated.. and the tractor manufacturers are sick of warranties on gearboxes
I rather change gears than to have my tractor in a repair shop all the time for sencer replacement
@@xephael3485 Wow, you're a pretty arrogant keyboard warrior.
@@JCWren okay hydro dude
@@xephael3485 Sure thing, boomer.
People with their toy tractors, trying to pull a hill in high range. I've pulled 8000 lb grape bins up hills with a 30hp gear drive without a problem. Rented a 40hp hydrostat one harvest; biggest pain to use, constantly swapping ranges. Buy a tractor with a real transmission and learn how to use it, you'll be fine.
None of these new tractors have any lugging capability compared to the older ones it’s all the emissions and electronics they just fall on there face geared or not I know I own several new and old tractors of varying sizes
In your experience would this apply to Manual transmissions as well? I would think not. And why would anyone want to rip uphill? Maybe a red tag sale on isle 24? Pun intended. Cheers.
You would just manually select a gear that'll get you up the hill, even with a hydrostatic transaxle, you do the same thing, low or medium range depending on how steep the hill is to get up the hill, with either type of transmission you'll not climb the hill at the same speed the tractor would be going if you were on flat ground with the hydrostatic pedal to the floor, or in top gear with a manual tractor....in fact with a manual tractor you very well could stall it if you were in too high of a gear....with a hydro, I'm not sure if it would stall it or just stop moving forward....if I have my roto tiller and loader on my little Kubota BX2680, and try to climb the ramps onto my trailer it'll stop moving if I'm in high range, have to use low range to get up the ramps with all that weight...but it don't stall the tractor it just stops moving forward.
@@wildbill23c My comment was a pun intended, having much experience with gear drive and hydrostatic trans I well know the ability's and short cummings of farm tractors and construction equipment. I was more curious why people think tractors can speed up hill, a dangerous endeavor to the uninitiated. Still, thanks' for the reply. Cheers.
@@johnambro7181 Very true. Anytime I'm using my tractor being in a hurry isn't anything of importance...I got a tractor to keep me from having to do all the heavier lifting and dirt/gravel moving chores by hand...that tractor saves countless hours of work, sitting on it and operating it ain't much work in comparison, I'm not in any hurry when I get to do tractor work, I enjoy it LOL.
@@wildbill23c I'm 63 and this is my work horse-B2650, slow is the way to go! Cheers.
@@johnambro7181 Well, my BX2680 isn't exactly fast, so you won't be going anywhere in record time...well I guess unless you are trying to have the slowest record HAHA!!! Those B-Series machines are nice, wouldn't mind one but have no need for anything larger on my 1 acre property.
You forgot the most importance one all THE OPERTOR!!
If you cant figure this out you best just stay in your little suburbia housing development. They really do walk among us...
Number 1 reason a compact tractor will not go up hill is r4 tires. Get R1 tires
Perhaps get a crawler tractor?
Guess I've found one reason to prefer my shuttle shift.
I don’t have any issues with my HST L2501 😛
You must "know" it had 3 ranges.
@@donaldstrishock3923 That is correct, nobody switches ranges as much as me!😎
Low hp but very big on torque
My 25 HP goes up every hill I have driven up...
Because it was made over seas
Too much weight on the front and not enough weight/ballast on the back can see you spinning wheels and not getting the traction you think you should have.
If you don't specifically buy one designed to go up hills you won't get one that goes up hills.
no other reasons
All common sense.
Read your owners manual boys! It actually has information in it lol
buy a power shuttle. Problem solved.
Easy answer: Have R1 tires
Hills, not for tractors or for many other pieces of equipment if you want to stay alive.
Interesting.....I guess this is a reflection of the people buying tractors these days.