Astrology in Psychotherapy
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- Опубликовано: 8 июл 2024
- A discussion about incorporating astrology into psychotherapy, and explaining what it looks like to use astrology as a tool in a therapeutic context, with astrologers Shawna Marie McGrath and Chris Brennan.
The premise of the episode is that despite a huge amount of literature on psychological astrology, astrology in psychotherapy is rarely discussed.
Nearly all literature written on the topic of therapeutic astrology is either geared toward “counseling skills for astrologers” or “how to read a birth chart therapeutically”.
Though these are valuable topics, neither address the practical application of astrology in therapy over time (what does it look like, what should clinicians/clients know, what are the pros, cons, risks, etc.).
This is what we set out to discuss in this episode, by answering the question "what does it look like to incorporate astrology into psychotherapy?"
Within this context we get into astrology as a tool for psychotherapists to conceptualize and understand their client, as well as astrology being used more openly as a psychotherapeutic tool that is discussed with the client directly.
We also discuss a number of the ethical considerations surrounding the use of astrology in psychotherapy, and talk about some pros and cons, in order to help clarify situations where astrology might be a helpful or appropriate tool to use versus when it might not be.
Shawna is a a psychotherapist and astrologer based in California, and you can find out more about her work on her website:
www.theastropsyche.com
This is episode 418 of The Astrology Podcast:
theastrologypodcast.com/2023/...
Please be sure to like and subscribe!
#TheAstrologyPodcast
00:00:00 Introduction
00:02:22 Shawna McGrath's background
00:07:19 Bringing astrology into therapy
00:11:16 An astrologer's purpose vs. purpose of therapy
00:12:44 What you can vs. should say with astrology
00:14:56 Carl Jung's use of astrology
00:18:36 Writings about using astrology in therapy
00:22:04 Using astrology passively
00:29:50 Astrology as a model for understanding a client
00:31:51 Transference and countertransference
00:36:39 The provisional nature of astrological predictions
00:38:40 The consultation chart
00:41:50 Following the client's lead in discussing astrology
00:47:20 Using astrology as a common language with the client
00:48:40 When the client has a different approach to astrology
00:54:40 Importance of not generating fear with astrology
00:57:40 Situations where astrology is not helpful
01:02:05 Astrology as a psychotherapeutic technique
01:05:30 Astrology as a symbolic language of the psyche
01:08:22 The empirical component in astrology
01:12:05 Ethical considerations
01:23:18 Getting to know clients over time
01:36:34 Types of therapy more well matched with astrology
01:46:40 Review overall pros/cons of incorporating astrology into psychotherapy
02:08:40 Shawna's website and upcoming work
02:10:53 Patrons and sponsors 
Развлечения
Thank you so much for having me! Such a fun conversation 🌟🦋
Thanks Shawna I had a blast, let's do it again sometime!
@@TheAstrologyPodcast Yes!
@@TheAstroPsyche 0
I just started seeing a psychotherapist that incorporates astrology and I was so excited to find him, more therapists should use astrology with their clients in my opinion!
11:08 THIS IS WHY IM HERE! This is how I use astrology. This is my passion. Astro transits aid in unlocking psychological blockages on occasions. BRILLIANT plug. I love her😭😭😭😭😩👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾👏🏾
As an astrologer and therapist who often intersects both I found this episode so brilliant and very much needed! In my experience, differentiating which approach one is using and “when to invite astrology into the room” is crucial and varies depending on each client. I enjoyed this so much, thanks Chris and Shawna! ❤
Shawna was my first in-person astrologer in San Diego & Chris is like my virtual astroguru, so I am beyond excited listening to these two great minds & hearts conversing! 🎉🎉🎉 Shawna’s weekly videos and podcasts are these beautiful, succinct summaries that I look forward to (along w/ her tarot insights/ connections). There is so much wisdom here - from the ethics involved in interrogating the power dynamics in the client-therapist/astrologer dynamic to the importance of client-therapist/astrologer synastry. I find Shawna to be so approachable, caring and engaged and recommend her highly to anyone intrigued by this discussion. My two fave astro teachers!😊😊😊
OH I AM EXCITED FOR THIS ONE!!!
Me too!!
I loved this!!! As a nurse looking into becoming a practitioner (I mean, my grad application is in), and thinking of how beneficial it could be to incorporate astrology into a person's preventive care, Shawna’s example is a great one! The ethical considerations you both covered and the various situational scenarios were just so encouraging, informative, and important. Thank you so much, Chris! These videos are valuable beyond compare. 🙏🏽🙏🏽🙏🏽
This is the reason why I'm studying astrology! I'm learning not about myself so that I could better myself in areas I wish to better myself. Hopefully I could do this with the people that I love to!!! I knew that astrology could be used to help out people!!!!!
I'm surprised how, given her chosen focus, she hasn't found any of the excellent books by Liz Greene and her collaboration in seminars with Howard Sasportas, (not to mention Dane Rudyard and Stephen Arroyo). Those books are a golden standard for joining mythology, psychology and astrology in a masterful way.
There is another book called "Healing Pluto Problems" by Donna Cunningham and the more recent books by Mark Jones.
thank you for the recommendations
@@happiness6488 I hope you find them as useful and instructive as I have, I could call them my astrological bibles.
Mark Jones for sure.
Hoping to see more people who also bring in somatic work.
Love this is being put into this ever expanding catalog.
Richard Tarnas & Stan Grof !!!
Oh my goodness! I'm so excited to watch this episode. Shawna is amazing! ❤❤
This is such a great conversation! I have found that working with astrology, and especially trans-generational astrology, helps my clients make rapid progress in their own therapy journey (in whatever form of therapy they follow). The two work beautifully together 👌
This was both interesting and enjoyable, thank you both so much! Although I’m brother a therapist nor an astrologer, I often fall into that role informally with friends and family. I hadn’t previously thought through all the ethical considerations and possible impact, and I can get kind of excited and carried away, so I think I needed this discussion 🤓🙏👌
I have studied with Jessica DiRuzza, too. About to take my 3rd class. Amazing teacher.
Loved this chat! As a newly practicing astrologer, the info gained from my mentors about being trauma informed & having a therapeutic lens plus reading Greg Bogart’s book Planets in Therapy are a really great foundation to move forward in what both Chris & Shauna talked about in this chat. The possibility of getting into deep waters with a client is for sure a concern since I think we as astrologers want to be helpful but may not be equipped with the tools a therapist has in order to properly hold space. Thank you both for this talk & hope to hear more on the topic in the future!
I love this topic & she’s amazing. Thank you, Chris!
This is exactly the episode I have been waiting for!
This was very informative. An abundance of information, Chris and Shawna. Excellent job. This is a topic I have visited time and time again whether to include Astrology as a part of counseling and therapy, so much to look at how to include it ethically and under licensure. But it can simply be the clients choice to use it or not. You both are just awesome and are taking astrology and service for healing to the next level and are leaders in this field. Thank you. Shawna, I will follow your work along with Chris! ❤🎉😊
This was one of my favourite episodes. A fantastic discussion with probably my favourite guest so far. So articulate and sensitive and clear.
Astrology and in depth psychology go hand in hand as a practical tool. When I first studied Astrology in the mid 90’s at Astro*Synthesis in Melbourne most of the other students were either studying psychology simultaneously or had already completed studies in psychology. Or we’re going to do jungian astrology. In those days for me Astrology provided the archetypal language for the soul. naturopathy and dream work go so well too. Dancing the zodiac is wonderful therapy too. I’m personally interested in the trans personal and cosmic, philosophical branches these days. The Hellenistic dimension has been extremely inspiring for me.
I caught this episode on Patreon and it was so interesting. Such a great topic that melds so well with astrology. Shawna is tops in this branch of astrology. Loved this episode, thank you Chris and Shawna.
i started therapy in 2019 and went for about a year and then started studying astrology after but things were going really well for me and even though i wasnt seeing my therapist anymore i texted her to let her know i was doing better than when i was when our sessions ended and i also told her that i was getting into astrology and thinking about going back to school to become a therapist (and the day after i told her that i read stephen aroyo's book where he mentioned doing that exact thing so people would take him seriously and he realized people still didn't take him seriously so i changed my mind about that very quickly) and a few months later i text my therapist again and told her that plans had changed and i asked to see her birth chart and she said that she likes to maintain her boundaries so she didn't let me see it which was sad but there are also some things i remember saying in sessions that are like perfectly displayed in my birth chart. for example she thought i had low self esteem and i was like "actually i think i'm pretty cool i just feel like other people don't necessarily get a chance to see how great i am and so i just don't really feel like i fit in" and then it turns out in an aquarius rising with my sun in the 8th house so it makes sense that i sort of feel invisible sometimes. my therapist said that from experience thinking other people don't like me really means i don't like myself and that just didn't resonate for me but i was like "she's my therapist i should be open to the idea that that's true"
love this topic and this video, thanks Chris and Shawna!
Really appreciative of Shawna’s work and reflections around this topic. 🙏
This is a terrific combination!! Thankyou Chris. 💫✨💫
This was fantastic thank you both for delving into such an important conversation and all the nuances of incorporating astrology with psychotherapy ❤🙏
I’m so glad you did this episode!! 🤩I’ve talked with my therapist about astrology and she’s open to it. I’m sending her this episode to watch!🧡
I think the client has no reason to doubt that current transits could possibly be why they feel what they feel, speaking from what I'm going through currently, it explains a lot, but solutions are not expected. Future transits the client knows will happen can be very impactful because there is no way to forsee how it will affect them. I need time away from overthinking my transits to keep it from going to my head. We can't control major transits but the short term ones are more predictable and can be easier to reason with.
My 2 passions 💜💜💜 thank you for this discussion. I am looking forward 2 using both in my practice after finishing school.
YYYEEEEEEESSSSSS!!! FINALLY!!! So here for this conversation! 🙌 🙌 🙌 Cannot wait to watch this! lol
The best of both worlds! Love this
I've been working astrology into my practice, but only to help identify challenging areas for the client.
This feels like manna from heaven. Absolutely love that you decided to do an episode on this topic and i really admired how carefully you considered all the pros and cons. I was in Jungian therapy for 14 years and went to astrologers for astrology readings now and then in parallel. My appreciation for astrology has now reached a point where any future therapy would only really appeal to me if it incorporated significant themes from my birth chart and current transits in some way. (Although I think when you said Chris that non-astrology-incorporating therapists also have a right to exist, it was an important point 😅) Anyways I'm delighted to know, thanks to this episode, that Shawna and others like her exist 💗
I love this talk! Thanks!
I use the lens of astrology as a tool for my alternative and integrative health therapies.
Astrology and alternative health! ❤😊
10:21!!! .....sooo happy to hear that! As psychology astrologer you must be really empathetic, there are different ways of "communicating approaching" each Client... historian, sociologist, educator, Philosopher..... having nice experienced backgrounds is definitely a big Plus!.... Thank You!
Amazing and so needed interview. ❤
Your so RIGHT!!
🎉 thank you for sharing!!!
If i practiced astrology (did readings) I’d have a huge sign with neons that had an on/off switch that said “I don’t want to be your friend” just as boundary enforcement. Joking, but symbolically, it just means that’s not an area of astrology I’m interested in actually DOING. Ketu 7th house. 😂 I could see myself working with an astrologer who does readings as an assistant where it doubles as a way to get information for a different astrology system. It’s great timing for this episode as RUclips has changed its policy to stop all types of medical advice which does include psychological astrology under its umbrella. Professional training is a must even in terms of social medias, it only takes one person doing something stupid to result in widespread content being removed. Psychological astrology equates to personality astrology to me in that it doesn’t offer a remedy or therapy, I like that this episode distinguishes there’s an important difference.
My favorite part, I’ll give a non astrological story. I know a person who became extremely angry with a neighbor for them bringing up that their pet was able to get out of the yard. I had to listen to the hostile outburst over it, and then, later, being asked if I could analyze why they got so upset over something they shouldn’t have been upset about. I didn’t respond and blew it off. Reasons? 1, they’d get mad, ironically. 2, the reason was in their verbal rants which means they have access to the reason. 3, it’s up to them to recognize the reasons on their own or else they’ll never actually identify the problem. In this case, the person is consuming a lot of negative media that is warping their world views. The world has issues, you can’t soak yourself in media that’s designed to keep a person enraged and angry plus distrusting others. What I find very often is that people will do anything possible to avoid dealing with or having a relationship with themselves and they’ll create outside problems to avoid dealing with the real issues. I thoroughly enjoyed this episode even though I (personally) don’t want to be in that area of astrology; it’s still helpful in helping identify areas I would enjoy and be more useful. I’d imagine I’d be having dreams where I’d be prepping for a day of client chart readings where every chart had a 7th house mars. Followed by charts of saturn in the 7th. Kidding.
As of now, I’m finding how folklore can be used for benefic’s and malefic’s: interpretation. Benefic’s being like a person getting 3 wishes for every hearts desire, but each wish causes another problem where they end up worse off by the end. Malefic’s are like a child collecting scraps in the woods for their poor family and a leprechaun jumps out, beats the kid up and throws him into the river falling down a waterfall. Bloody, bruised, with broken bones, the kid washes to shore to find the river bank is full of gold and the family ends up rich. Malefic’s actually align more with hero’s journeys. That may be why ancient astrologers would interpret benefic’s positive to negative, malefic’s negative to positive.
I’m really big on the ethics topic, I can act like a nitpicky virgo ascendant smacking people with my bundle of wheat but with Saturn in virgo.. it’s hard to tell if I’m just being grumpy and cranky for the hell of it. (I like blaming planets for fun)
It’s a fun thing to ponder with reading charts, I only depth read charts of friends I know well. I do like it as a way to get to know people as it’s non judgmental and can guide questions you may not think to ask. On one hand, I may do an “application” type of system where it’s clear I wouldn’t go near certain questions. There’s also the option of referrals to professionals on some topics there counseling and therapy. I may ask someone to list, say, their 10 favorite songs. Movies, and tv shows to find astrological themes that may align in an interest where I’d rather a person experience astrological themes themselves in ways they may not recognize. My experience is that people tend to be more interested in the astrological world view or mental framework. A sense of connectedness. I had a series of experiences where, the 3rd time, I was all “really? Again?” (I kept seeing something). I went over to get a better look and found whatever it was was gone, but I couldn’t help but notice an extremely bright star. I checked the location, it was jupiter, a fantastic reminder that I am in a VERY jupiter period and I have been worrying too much. Little things are often helpful if you know a language. Also, you do have to also look at life itself as symbolic, not just the astrology. Having Jung being quoted on that during the presidential primaries was great.
Here’s my list of ethical violations I’ve noticed astrologers taking part in. 1, I’m kidding. Very good episode.
Love this discussion (listened to it on the podcast). Great to see Shawna and get to know more colleagues who combine psychotherapy with astrology. More exchange of experience and resesrch is needed for sure. I agree with many points and importance of balancing your enthusiasm about astrology with where is it appropriate to voice some astrology related things at a therapy session. Chris, maybe some day we can have a whole conference on that? :)
Ooo this one is sure to be interesting!
Stay happy and healthy
💕 👍👍 this lady is the REAL thing 🇩🇪 👑
You could try having 3 sessions without using or knowing their astrology at all and devise a plan for the client based only on what they tell you. After that you can checkk out their astrology and see if there's any correlations between before and after the astro input. Assuming something about someone is probably a bad game plan.
How an astrologer work with what he sees in a chart from a client is a very important topic to bring up. I think that astrology is still a slippy slide because of how prescriptive it can be. Of course to me, this way of using astrology is still precocious and needs to be studied further before taking on the responsibility of having another human life in front of us who demands our help. We are working with people who are in vulnerable positions so we need to be very careful of what information we share with them.
Thanks to both of you for bringing up the subject!
Thank you!
Great podcast. Shawna has been one of my favorite astrologers, so down to earth and seems to be a very sweet person. Thank you so much for this.
Scorpio asc (Mars & Jupiter 8H) PhD student in clinical psych here. Looking fwd to this l.
Cool my therapist through adolescence and early adulthood was a Gemini, she never shared more than that but she was progressive and good
I have 5 in Sagittarius 4h
With sun opposite Chiron in Gemini 10h, I still think about her and her methods and ideas
Safron Rossi and Keiron Le Grice’s book (both Pacifica teachers) Jung on Astrology might be a great resource for any who are interested
Love this! I wish more psychotherapist were more into astrology and even simply be aware of other esoteric themes. I resonate a lot with all this as a complex story of my life and I feel when I go to therapy I can't fully express things. I mean take my upbringing (as just one example) and while it's not been "traumatic" for myself but it's shaped who i am in terms of being raised going with family to see this lady who practiced white magic - this could connect other aspects of certain cognitive blockages, or perhaps nervous system regulation blockages? (for example) So what I am saying essentially lol, is that having more diversity in the practices could find/fill larger gaps many of us experience. However, it is something that I also introspect, a psychotherapist would have to be interested in these topics and or would have to experience these things themselves to understand better. A blind can't really lead the blind? On the topic of astrology, sometimes I want to go into therapy and say well this is why this is such a strong and relevant year or time for me and I get it! it's part of the transit conversation with my natal chart, or whatever
Thank you for such a great conversation. When I was an AMFT in California I was advised by a lawyer to not go out of scope in my marketing and advertising. Out of scope would be saying that I’m an astrologer and a psychotherapist. Not sure if I got bad advice or if things have changed. Curious how other therapists advertise and market this side of their practice or how they incorporate it in their work while adhering to strict board regulations.
How do she get the correct births time? Or is it only the planets that are important here? Thanks 🙏
Yes I’d like to know this also. Birth time would be difficult to get/ask for if using astrology passively and not bringing into therapy session.
I was in therapy but on the nhs and during that time I had the most amazing spiritual experience of my life. It felt like i was in love. I felt at one with the world and connected to nature in such a beautiful way. I stopped smoking, became vegetarian and started practicing magic. I was following the pagan path.
And i mentioned some of this to my therapist as well as astrology. And he dismissed my experience as basically idiotic. And I have to say to be judged like that at the birth of my spiritual path dampened things for me.
Be careful what you tell your therapist. Or be careful to choose the right therapist. I had no choice as it was on the nhs, you wait for months to get one and then you can’t get a different one.
Please have on Heather Ensworth if possible 🙏🏾 ❤
🤩Synchronicities!!!💫
💫Super Excited!!!🤓
❤️🔥Thank you🙏❤️🩹
Jimmy Buffet had an album called *_Living and Dying @ ¾ Time_* This is actually happening to me.
I was wondering what would happen when Pluto was going to do going back n forth between Cap 7th and Aqua 8th.
Well when Pluto went back into Cap (March last) l had the earth-shattering realisation that I've suffered from CPTSD which started in 1964 (aged 5) thru to 1975 when the abuser left. I've been left with a _sucker vine_ strangling out my persona. And it happened at ¾ time; Transiting Uranus sq Natal Uranus. Hence the Buffet reference and the bringer of startling information.
I have 5 T Squares, 2 Thor's Hammer & 2 Yods
Oh please do an episode on death in astrology.
❤❤❤
Chris, respectfully, are you in the spectrum? You have a straightforward and somewhat abrupt way of saying things. I do as well. ❤
no doubt he's in the spectrum. he doesn't get hints.
I would call Freudian relational therapy “depth.”
yayayayay
I think it’s invasive for a therapist to pull my chart without me knowing
Interesting perspective. But I think if I didn't trust my therapist to do something like that, I should not be seeing them, for we are not a good match. A therapist may actually consulting with others about your case, and sharing all sorts of things about you in a professional setting, for their own growth, understanding, to help you better, etc. It's anonymous even in those settings, of course, but still being shared without your knowledge. To look at a client chart in order to help them doesn't seem even remotely unethical to me. To look at a client chart in order to do something weird--I think they addressed this aspect in the show. A therapist must be clear, "Why am I using astrology at all?"
Chris have me on?!
Yes more I am such a fan of Chris because he mirrors people better than most therapists-I wish she were more aware of that. I’m a psychologist with a depth perspective. Why is she seeming defensive to me? Oh lord. Give me more Chris. Yes let’s talk though more about what happens when the astrologer is being seen repeatedly? How can we help y’all with the transferences? Although Chris seems to flow and is very Bion to me or kohutian
Isn’t a midlife crisis aka a Chiron return? This all makes sense.
It is inappropriate to use a clients birth chart Without their full permission
And their understanding of why it is being used
Thanks for sharing your ethics. This may not be everyone's ethical stance, but it's definitely something one should consider in their practice. I know someone who even refuses to examine or use celebrity charts or anyone's chart for learning, in any circumstance, without their permission or consent.
I'd say it's a fair point.
She’s warming up and is making some good points but he’s still a better listener
Are you guys familiar with Debra Silverman? Wondering what you think of her version of astrology.
Depth is queer which is being left out
I made a comment that it is inappropriate to use a clients chart without their full permission.
Since there is so many different types of astrology and different interpretations
and no regulations on Astrologist responsibility on how they deliver and what they deliver to a client
Etc - evolutionary Astrology
Is laying a pretty heavy trip on clients, with the theory that Pluto is your soul and all your Aquarius in your chart is Trauma, with NO skills to address this heavy stuff, other Astrology schools are also do and saying things to clients that are damaging and inappropriate.
Also Chris this is a public conversation and it is ok for others to have different views.
👎🏾👎🏾👎🏾👎🏾
This is a poor reflection of Evolutionary astrology.
At most these are signatures.
Anyone who reads those books, if this is what you got out of it, then I'd be concerned.
@@CAdreaM6 it is a factual assessment of the theory is it not the focus of Pluto soul, the moon nodes. Skip step, Aquarius trauma, Pluto book explain this clearly.
defense is not helpful.
@Holisticpsychotherapy Aquarius is a potential trauma SIGNATURE, not trauma with a period.
To call Pluto the soul, it's simply speaking to the deeper, immutable part of someone.
Many have refined the idea of Pluto being "the soul."
Also, in Pluto 1 book it clearly states: "As counselors, or just as friends, we will do our best if we can simply identify reality as it exists for those with whom we interact, and to give them what they need according to their own reality, not ours. This type of giving requires observation, listening, and objectivity. The very language that we use is based on their reality, their language."
So as we see here, Pluto can be "the soul" in theory, but all context are different.
This is just black and white thinking and people extracting ideas while not knowing HOW to think and just moving forward with WHAT to think because many lack critical thinking skills.
That is no fault of Evolutionary Astrology.
Anyway, I digress.
Sending you well wishes.
🙏🏾
If you would like to look on RUclips at 100s of videos on this theory being delivery you may find that the points that I had made is a clear observation.
To my original comment
as there is so many different types of Astrology and the interpretation of any chart will be different depending of what astrology is being delivered.
Therapeutically where dose that leave the client.
@Holisticpsychotherapy
I hear you, AND ALSO, I'm sharing what comes directly from the OG of the tradition.
Also, having a theory about something and how one presents it in practice is all about the practitioner.
I also have a background in psychology so I've never even presented the information in such a way even if I have subscribed/liked the framing.
Thanks for reflecting and conversing.
what the actual fuck. that should be illegal.
The part about being careful how I read the chart to a client is so true I dealt with that as well when I was in a astrology discord server. We did a secret Santa event where we draw pics or make something or read a chart for someone and I did so for a stranger and even tho they were thankful of me reading a chart they never said it was good or bad and not too long after they deleted their account 🥲🙃. Even tho I too t be time only saying good things and warned about others I do wonder if they were spooked with my reading 😅
Chris, respectfully, are you in the spectrum? You have a straightforward and somewhat abrupt way of saying things. I do as well. ❤
If by on the spectrum you mean have a Mercury-Saturn conjunction then yes, yes I am
@@TheAstrologyPodcastbeautiful reflection here.
Love this response.