I gig both of these amps exclusively so I'm invested in this conversation. My general rule is that I only play the Princeton when I'm playing a show with excellent PA support. So ironically, the larger the venue, the more likely the Princeton will come out. When I am in doubt on a gig, especially outdoors, I use the Deluxe. Both in parallel would be ideal, especially outdoors, but stage size is usually very limited. The other factor is that the Princeton has a good amount more midrange, at least my alnico-loaded 64 custom does. I find I prefer it a little more with my non-P90 guitars, as P90's already bring a good amount of midrange to the party. At home, the Princeton is preferable. I think it has a richer sound and reverb/tremolo compared with my 64 custom deluxe. Volume is the biggest issue for me in this scenario, and I can play the Princeton fairly quietly and it still sounds good.
I have a Princeton 12 inch custom 65 reissue and it is fine with volume set to 5 at home. Nobody complains unless they are trying to sleep. That’s in a typical small British home.
I ended up picking up a Sweetwater tweed Princeton re issue with the 12" Cannabis Rex speaker to go with my Fillmore 25 and So far I have found both are working well live.
Thanks for the most excellent conversation, gentlemen! I've had a Fender TMDR (black modded to blonde) since 2020. I don't care if it sounds "exactly" like a '64 or not. It's a great little amp.
Carr Rambler - 26 watts Pentode, 14 watts Triode mode (which I never use). It is an amazing amp - especially with pedals. It is 40lbs - but what a lot of rich tone! Thanks for the chat - very informative. I believe Steve Carr wanted to combine a Fender Deluxe with the Pro - so it had tube tremolo & reverb. I'm so glad I found one a few years ago
Haha! that was my tonemaster princeton reverb that I loaned to @askzac. Fully agree with the sentiment discussed on it. I think it needs to be thought of as it's own thing vs trying to really replicate an actual blackface princeton reverb. In and of itself it is good amp, with all the conveniences that the tone masters all have, which is all goodness. I've gigged with it, often running stereo with my blonde tonemaster deluxe - great pairing, the sound is huge, the combination of the 10" PR and 12" DR sounds fantastic. but now i'm rambling.
I used to have a silverface Deluxe Reverb that I loved but eventually sold and kept my silverface Princeton Reverb which I recabbed in a cherry cabinet. Lighter weight and since we miked everything on stage it seemed the better option for me. I also have a 67 Vibro Champ. I have had a 64 Vibroverb and an 81 Vibrolux Reverb. All were nice amps but I prefer, overall, my PR. Great sound and small enough to carry with big enough sound.
I don't watch streamed video on YT but this caught my interest - both for the content and the hosts - this was very enjoyable. I have the TM TWIN and a '70's PR so I got a lot out of this since I don't have the TM Deluxe or the TM Princeton. Thanks you guys.
I can't believe I missed this! I agree with Zac. That Blonde Deluxe Reverb Tone Master is perfect. It just has that sound, the weight is much easier in you, and it checks the box on playability.
Two of my favorite RUclips music people talking about two of my favorite amps (Tube Deluxe Reverb, Tube Princeton Reverb), and two amps I’m interested in (the Tonemaster versions) and all of it reaffirms (again) I bought the right amp (Tube DRRI) for me. I watched this video twice already. Great guitar/Blackface Fender Chicken Noodle Soup for the soul and brain.
A friend's bar band - one player had a DR. Z Maz Jr. The other player was using a Princeton and getting absolutely buried. I loaned him my 68 Custom DR and he was buried no more.
If you have a PR live and you're not miced up then you're silly or playing jazz or something I've had my PR on stage along with 35 watt amps on the other side and I was the lead. As long as I'm miced up it does not matter at all.
I love my 65 PRRI. The only time it’s been a little too light on the volume for me is when I’ve been playing outdoors w no mic on it. It still got by but the bottom was mushing out. It’s so addicting to plug my tele into that amp it’s has now become my main amp. Big and small stages alike.
They might get through the PA. It doesn’t matter what you use. That makes them kind of the same amps no… and the Princeton is going to be better for recording because it’s a lower volume… it’s a tough call. George Harrison said you could do anything in the world with a deluxe reverb. But a lot of people swear that you can do it all with the Princeton. The Princeton better recording the deluxe reverb is better for live shows. There, I said it.
@@Baci302 I like that I can crank it on 8/9 w out killing everyone. It’s also got this super cool responsive thing w whatever guitar I play through it. Like the guitars almost have this sparky acoustic like quality. It reacts really well to volume and tone knob changes on the guitar. Also is really responsive to how hard or soft you play etc. And the tremolo is so good…
I totally understand Zac at 55:00 I used to own 2 1965 Fender Deluxe Reverbs, all original from 1965. They sounded great Buuuut, playing NYC and walking in with 2 of these amps..I always felt I was a target for theft. We played tough rooms...and I sold them (for more than I bought them for) and moved onto amps that noone would take my life for.
Surprised you guys didn't have the details on the 68s. They are not "reissues." They are 68s only really in cosmetics. Fender says that the 68 Princeton Custom has a "Bassman tone stack" and no bright cap. The Bassman tone stack is apparently why it breaks up at lower volumes and has more lower end than the 65 reissue.
I have to agree that the 12 inch speaker makes the biggest difference. I don't like the weight... it's the heaviest part of the rig after the box as I am using a class D amp any more. A jfet based pre does wonderful things to the sound other wise.
I’ve owned the Fender 64 DR hand wired since it came out and it’s my amp for almost everything I need. Takes pedals well and works with all my guitars.
5 watt and zac are 2 of my favorite on line guitar videos zacs my main stay im sitting on my porch waiting for my telecaster to show up i told my bros its zacs fault
The bright on the '65 Princeton is just part of the design. It is not on the volume control like on the Deluxe or other Fender amps. It was how they were mixing in the reverb.
The 68 models aren't actually reissues, they are custom models that mimic popular mods to the original silver panels. I have a 68 Custom that I absolutely adore. The Celestian 10 speaker is the 10" version of the vintage 30, supposedly. There's an 18k resistor in the bass circuit that adds some woof to it. This may add too much bass for some folks. If you want to get rid of this extra umph, simply take the chassis out and on top of the circuit board is a resistor. Bypass that resister with a piece of wire and you're good to go.
The scoop in the Deluxe is because there is a mid control. Turn the mids most of the way up. Fender really threw way more features into the Blackface Deluxe than needed. Drop the first channel, drop the tremolo, and then cathode bias it so it goes smooth into distortion.The 12" is the defacto guitar speaker size. Right now I am building an amp like this in a 5E3 chassis and cabinet, just without reverb. I even did a mod where I can remove the NFB for a more British type distortion to open it up - more a feature for recording, but it still sounds great.
When worlds collide! Two of my favorite youtubers at one time!! Good stuff guys. I prefer one of each, then get them from each fender era... I know, I know I have a terminal case of GAS and AAS (amp acquisition syndrome) LOL I love the content Keith!! PS where can I get a shirt like Zacs?
As of Monday I will be down to 4 amps (and I think that this is about as low as I can go). Tube: A tweed Princeton I built from a kit and a Princeton Reverb with a 12" in a slightly larger cab that was professionally built. SS: A Henrikson The Bud that I use for Jazz duo gigs and a Boss Katana 50 (which is a great replacement for my old Micro Cube). I'm a happy guy, and I am keenly aware of my incredible good fortune.
I'm glad you guys discussed the tube v. solidstate issue. As much as I liked my HRD, I just couldn't use it at the volume it sounded best. I fought a few different tube amps before settling on a crate Vintage club 30, because it was the only amp that sounded okay "not too lous" for home. But then comes the maintenance. I went through several sets of tubes, a few trips to the amp tech, and a couple speakers before I went to a Blues Cube. And now , I'm looking at adding either a nextone or a tubemaster to make my own wet/dry rig. I don't gig. I just want enough volume to "feel" the sound, yet not have the cops called to my house if my noodling goes late.
My first amp was a Deluxe 112 plus. Which these days a lot of people shit on, but I remember at the time everyone would rave about the sound, until I told them it was solid state. Then they could suddenly hear the difference 😅 I had no idea what it was “meant to” sound like, so I just dialled it in until it sounded good to me, rather than trying to match a totally different amp. Sounded the same quiet or really loud (& it would get wall shakingly loud)
I have both amps, and they're great. They are real 64's. I lean towards the deluxe more, but the Princeton has this beautiful sparkle that the deluxe is missing. I've done some recordings with both amps in stereo and it's glorious. Using slightly different reverb and tremolo settings on each amp gives a beautifully wide image. Both amps have had their speakers replaced. I have a 10" 2122 h JBL in the Princeton and a German-made Jensen style 12" Alnico speaker that is the best I've ever heard for the Deluxe reverb, I did a lot of testing and this speaker was the most pleasing to me. Unfortunately, they are now discontinued and are quite difficult to find.
I bought the '65 Deluxe Reverb reissue in 2005, downsizing from a '66 Pro Reverb. I sold the Deluxe in 2008 because I was never satisfied with the thin bright sound. In the early eighties I had owned an actual mid sixties model. The comparison was unfavorable to the reissue, perhaps unfairly. I got on the waiting list for a Tone King Imperial. When one became available in September 2008 I drove immediately down to Portland to pick it up. That's my keeper amp.
I love my Sweetwater exclusive Princeton in tweed livery with a 12" speaker. As a jazz and blues amp, it sounds amazing with the volume at 4.5. It also takes a T808 pedal well with a Strat that has Texas Special pickups for the SRV sound. For rock, I play through a Vox AC15C1. The downside is the Vox is very loud and not so good for home practice.
I have both those amps as well. Obviously a night and day difference in tone. As others have said, I don't like my p90 guitars through the Princeton. But how glorious my LP Jr's sound through the Vox. As far as the Vox goes for playing at quiet levels, its possible. If you're talking about the version with a normal channel and a Top Boost, it's set up so that the master volume is really a power amp gain, and the individual channel volumes are like preamp gain. So, you can turn the master volume down to like 1/2 and turn the channel volume up to 7-8 and get some great Marshall bees-in-a-can preamp overdrive at acceptable volume levels.
I think the difference between the '65 BF Tone Master vs the '68 is the speaker. The '65 having a Jensen N12K and the '68 having the Celestion G12 Neo Creamback, which is a Neo version of a G12M and does have more headroom. Basically it is kind of like the Brownface amps having a more premium speaker, like the old JBL speakers.
I really need to try a vintage 30 in my deluxe , the evm kinda has the lower back, ummm not so well…lol two tone titans talking here, listening intently on these words…not sure how I missed this gem!
I'm with Zac; and with Keith: "If you're going to make something that looks like a thing, don't be surprised if I compare it to that thing." Are the Fender reissues useful? Sure. Are ToneMaster amps useful? Yes. Still, neither the reissues nor the TMs sound much like the classic amps they're pretending to be. Better/worse is subjective. But to build an amp that looks like something that it's not seems unkosher - IMHO.
At home 69 Princeton w gold back 10” And Master Volume added. Stage, Fender Deluxe 64 reissue. Best of all worlds. Playing 1962 Reissue Tele And Strat Made in Japan. Still trying to right pedals right and road worthy for stage sound.
Kieth, I’m watching this in late August 2024 It’s just dawned on me, as a Brit don’t laugh, your speaking voice accent on Adam a7x monitors: … Henry Fonda I watch your channel often and now I know 😅
This is video I was looking for…… I am about to buy one of those 64 Hand Wired. But I still don’t know which one for mainly home use…… It’s a pity that Fender is not offering those in a Head Version……
Hey Keith, this was my first time actually getting to watch a live stream. Loved it. I was trying to ask if you would ever do a tonemaster vs quilter aviator video or if you just wanted to play both side by side. I'm not far from you!
@fivewattworld I certainly can't say I blame you. I I feel like there's always something to buy or something to upgrade. It's exhausting. Hence, what led me to your channel in the first place.
In the middle of the video you guys started rating the amps (0-5?). It took me a while to figure out that's what you were doing as you started out talking numbers on the knobs. I went back to listen to that section again knowing that you were spewing out two different sets of numbers, but I STILL couldn't keep track at any moment of whether the reference regarded rating or maybe volume preference...
I would consider a Tone Master amp, but it would have to be a used one at a good price. The price of used ones would go down much more than Fender tube amps. Also, IMHO, Fender missed an opportunity by not putting effects loops in the TMs, so they could also be used to amplify modelers.
Have had both (not the tone masters, but the tube versions). I sold my Deluxe Reverb as the Princeton was more of what I wanted from that particular style of amp. YMMV.
Okay, here’s my thought, because I’m a dude and it’s RUclips. If I was going to capitulate and go solid state modeling, I’d have a hard time not just taking my Katana. I’m sure it’s not as good, but if I’m already going down the scale, the Katana is fine (it’s pretty great actually), although it’s not much lighter than my Geminis, so who knows?
I enjoyed this talk a lot. What I got from this is that the Blond Tone Master Deluxe was the favorite, scoring 5/5 for everything. One this I was missing is that nobody mentioned the Tone Master Twin, which is also available in Blonde. What I got from other videos is that it’s main difference with the Deluxe is that it has a mid control, which some found very important + that it stays clean longer and thus takes pedals better. What’s your take on the Twin. I’ve pretty much decided on a Blonde, but cannot compare the Deluxe vs Twin easily.
Dig your vids man and Zac is feckin awsome. I've learnt sooooo much from him sin after 30 of plating guitar as a drummer I got the tele bug. Learn a hell of alpy from you too man so thank you both!
The hot rod series and re-issue series amps from fender sound great but there build with cheapo components and a really thin pcb board and when you get problems with them this becomes an expensive repair . The 64 hand build ones are way to expensive to buy for a working stiff like me so to me the tonemasters amps are the answer , i have had my black TM DR for more then 4 years now and it's working fine , so yeah .
I think it would be wise of Fender to a a mid control to their Tone Master and tube powered Princeton and Deluxe Reverb models. And I would like to see both offered in a 1X15 cabinet or at least a head version as well as a combo.
Love the topic, good information. I do have a question, though: Keith and Zac both say that the Tonemasters work well in a wet/dry or stereo rig. I'm hesitant to use a digital amp in a wet/dry or stereo setup next to a tube or analog solid-state amp due to the possibility of phasing issues arising from A/D conversion latency. Keith and Zac both have great ears, so I trust them when they say this, but seems counterintuitive based on my previously acquired information/understanding.
I got a real Princeton and tone master, I think it's pretty close for cleans and for something that's all digital fender did great, however when u start driving it, it don't sound like a tube amp. change the speaker over to a Jenson alnico 10. It's even closer, for clean
had a 58 tweed harvard and a blond tremuluxe with a stovepipe e.v.12 inch speaker.they were almost equal in sound,harvard only had a10 inch speaker,10 watts. tremuluxe had 35 watts
Both amps are great I like 12 inch speakers with higher headroom though I think the tone masters are muddy and dark though loses some of the fender chime.
I needed to hear this. I've been looking for a new amp Have it down to 3 brands, Fender being one of them . I own a ss deluxe 112 . So I'm leaning towards a Tube. Thanks Men
I always preferred the Deluxe over the Princeton mainly because of its 12" inch speaker versus the 10" speaker of the Princeton. To my ears, a single 12" inch speaker sounds much better, bigger and fuller. But I needed an amp with a bit more power, so I got a used 1968 silverface Vibrolux (35 watts) modded by my friend and amp wizard Rick Onslow. And my Vibrolux is now equipped with a 12" inch speaker and a 10" speaker...( Celestion alnico speakers) Beautiful tone!
I have a 65 Deluxe RI that I play mostly in my living room, a little bit in my basement recording studio. I've at various times switched 12AX7 preamp tubes for 12AT7 which knocks some of the power off, also currently it has an old USA made Truetone rectifier tube (a 5Y3 I think) in it which also knocks off some dbs and makes it compress a little bit earlier. My point is that with the real tube amps you can use alternative tube configurations to tailor the amp to your liking. Mine also has a Celestion Vintage 30 that I like a lot (based on Zac's recommendation). I'm playing pretty quietly, solo jazz tunes, and it sounds great to my ears, breaks up quickly if you turn it up past 3. If I go play at someone else's place it's easy enough to fit in the car, not too heavy. For me it's the perfect amp!
Hey there, Keith…a friend of mine was telling me about an amp I have never heard of before called “Freedom”. His words were “a Michael Mathew’s Freedom amp”. Have you heard of such a thing? Supposed to be deadly. Oh yeah, 200w. Thanks! Lol Nice intro.
My bud is a fingerstyle solo Jazz guy. I feel the Deluxe is too much for some venues, yet Princeton to small. The Harvard needs to be brought in to this conversation.
Here is 2 cents from someone who should just keep his mouth shut considering the great players I’m addressing but here goes. I find the Hot Rod Deluxe almost as boxy and uninspiring as the Blues Junior. A speaker upgrade helps considerably but they have so many component and layout faults that it’s just not worth the price of admission. The reissue Deluxe and Princeton are so superior and still benefit from speaker changes but it makes no sense to me to skimp. Just my opinion after extensive amp trials. Headstrong, Suhr, Milkman, Bartel, Swart, Rift, or any other great boutique builds don’t even belong in the same conversation. I realize I’m missing the topic here but getting down to sub thousand dollar amps, the Vox AC15C1 hits way beyond its price point. Love your channels guys.
I gig both of these amps exclusively so I'm invested in this conversation. My general rule is that I only play the Princeton when I'm playing a show with excellent PA support. So ironically, the larger the venue, the more likely the Princeton will come out. When I am in doubt on a gig, especially outdoors, I use the Deluxe. Both in parallel would be ideal, especially outdoors, but stage size is usually very limited. The other factor is that the Princeton has a good amount more midrange, at least my alnico-loaded 64 custom does. I find I prefer it a little more with my non-P90 guitars, as P90's already bring a good amount of midrange to the party. At home, the Princeton is preferable. I think it has a richer sound and reverb/tremolo compared with my 64 custom deluxe. Volume is the biggest issue for me in this scenario, and I can play the Princeton fairly quietly and it still sounds good.
I have a Princeton 12 inch custom 65 reissue and it is fine with volume set to 5 at home. Nobody complains unless they are trying to sleep. That’s in a typical small British home.
Being in the same room as a Headstrong Lil’ King and an ice cold Topo Chico, is literally my dream situation
I ended up picking up a Sweetwater tweed Princeton re issue with the 12" Cannabis Rex speaker to go with my Fillmore 25 and So far I have found both are working well live.
IIRC the Sweetwater exclusive tweed Princeton is actually a Blackface. Around $1,300. Not sure about the $2,000+ one. Which one do you have?
I have the prri in tweed that’s the 1300 one.
I am catching this one after the fact. Keith and Zac, what fun.
Thanks for the most excellent conversation, gentlemen! I've had a Fender TMDR (black modded to blonde) since 2020. I don't care if it sounds "exactly" like a '64 or not. It's a great little amp.
You two work great together. More collabs please...
Carr Rambler - 26 watts Pentode, 14 watts Triode mode (which I never use). It is an amazing amp - especially with pedals. It is 40lbs - but what a lot of rich tone! Thanks for the chat - very informative. I believe Steve Carr wanted to combine a Fender Deluxe with the Pro - so it had tube tremolo & reverb. I'm so glad I found one a few years ago
Haha! that was my tonemaster princeton reverb that I loaned to @askzac. Fully agree with the sentiment discussed on it. I think it needs to be thought of as it's own thing vs trying to really replicate an actual blackface princeton reverb. In and of itself it is good amp, with all the conveniences that the tone masters all have, which is all goodness. I've gigged with it, often running stereo with my blonde tonemaster deluxe - great pairing, the sound is huge, the combination of the 10" PR and 12" DR sounds fantastic. but now i'm rambling.
I used to have a silverface Deluxe Reverb that I loved but eventually sold and kept my silverface Princeton Reverb which I recabbed in a cherry cabinet. Lighter weight and since we miked everything on stage it seemed the better option for me. I also have a 67 Vibro Champ. I have had a 64 Vibroverb and an 81 Vibrolux Reverb. All were nice amps but I prefer, overall, my PR. Great sound and small enough to carry with big enough sound.
What a charming stream...
Thanx guys
12in Creamback in my 65 PRRI sounds incredible to my ear. It's my favorite Fender amp.
I don't watch streamed video on YT but this caught my interest - both for the content and the hosts - this was very enjoyable. I have the TM TWIN and a '70's PR so I got a lot out of this since I don't have the TM Deluxe or the TM Princeton. Thanks you guys.
I can't believe I missed this! I agree with Zac. That Blonde Deluxe Reverb Tone Master is perfect. It just has that sound, the weight is much easier in you, and it checks the box on playability.
It's a very good clone of the real thing. Hats off to Fender.
@@godzoo18 I said it was perfect. It's lightweight and sounds amazing.
I took a chance and ordered a Headstrong. Done! Exactly the tone I have been hearing in my head and been searching for, well for many years.
How long was the wait time?
I watched tons of Tone Master Deluxe Reverb reviews before I bought one- it’s dynamite ❤!
Same here. I'm playing more of my Tone Master Deluxe Reverb Blonde more than my Blues Junior 3.
Once seen Paul Simon come on stage with his guitar and a Princeton amp in Charlotte. Played the whole show that way.
Thanks for the talk. I’ll stick to my Blues Junior mk1 with various mods and a WGS ET65 speaker.
Love listening to you guy talk guitars. Thanks for all the knowledge.
Thanks for sticking up for the Vox AC10c1. Pretty cool little amp.
Two of my favorite RUclips music people talking about two of my favorite amps (Tube Deluxe Reverb, Tube Princeton Reverb), and two amps I’m interested in (the Tonemaster versions) and all of it reaffirms (again) I bought the right amp (Tube DRRI) for me.
I watched this video twice already. Great guitar/Blackface Fender Chicken Noodle Soup for the soul and brain.
I’m surprised that Zac did not mention the Chris Stapleton Princeton. He did a show on it and seemed to like it.
A friend's bar band - one player had a DR. Z Maz Jr. The other player was using a Princeton and getting absolutely buried. I loaned him my 68 Custom DR and he was buried no more.
If you have a PR live and you're not miced up then you're silly or playing jazz or something
I've had my PR on stage along with 35 watt amps on the other side and I was the lead. As long as I'm miced up it does not matter at all.
I love my 65 PRRI. The only time it’s been a little too light on the volume for me is when I’ve been playing outdoors w no mic on it. It still got by but the bottom was mushing out. It’s so addicting to plug my tele into that amp it’s has now become my main amp. Big and small stages alike.
They might get through the PA. It doesn’t matter what you use. That makes them kind of the same amps no… and the Princeton is going to be better for recording because it’s a lower volume… it’s a tough call. George Harrison said you could do anything in the world with a deluxe reverb. But a lot of people swear that you can do it all with the Princeton. The Princeton better recording the deluxe reverb is better for live shows. There, I said it.
@@JeremyAult12 What is it that you love most about it other than the weight?
@@Baci302 I like that I can crank it on 8/9 w out killing everyone. It’s also got this super cool responsive thing w whatever guitar I play through it. Like the guitars almost have this sparky acoustic like quality. It reacts really well to volume and tone knob changes on the guitar. Also is really responsive to how hard or soft you play etc. And the tremolo is so good…
Thanks for the video guys😊
I would love another video of you two talking about FYD and Headstrong options🙏
Take care
I totally understand Zac at 55:00 I used to own 2 1965 Fender Deluxe Reverbs, all original from 1965. They sounded great Buuuut, playing NYC and walking in with 2 of these amps..I always felt I was a target for theft. We played tough rooms...and I sold them (for more than I bought them for) and moved onto amps that noone would take my life for.
Surprised you guys didn't have the details on the 68s. They are not "reissues." They are 68s only really in cosmetics. Fender says that the 68 Princeton Custom has a "Bassman tone stack" and no bright cap. The Bassman tone stack is apparently why it breaks up at lower volumes and has more lower end than the 65 reissue.
You both are so nice guys. Thank you for this episode. Greetings from Germany 🇩🇪
Great show again ! Thanks Guys!
I have to agree that the 12 inch speaker makes the biggest difference. I don't like the weight... it's the heaviest part of the rig after the box as I am using a class D amp any more. A jfet based pre does wonderful things to the sound other wise.
I really enjoyed this video. Lots of good information and the chatting between you and Zak was really fun! Thank you
I’ve owned the Fender 64 DR hand wired since it came out and it’s my amp for almost everything I need. Takes pedals well and works with all my guitars.
Just puIIed the trigger on a 64 HW'ed today; so-far-so-good. Can't wait tiII next gig when I'm not schlepping that oId Super Reverb around.
Two of my favorite sources. Nicely done guys.
5 watt and zac are 2 of my favorite on line guitar videos zacs my main stay im sitting on my porch waiting for my telecaster to show up i told my bros its zacs fault
Good morning. Great show - thanks for the info and the entertainment.
The bright on the '65 Princeton is just part of the design. It is not on the volume control like on the Deluxe or other Fender amps. It was how they were mixing in the reverb.
The 68 models aren't actually reissues, they are custom models that mimic popular mods to the original silver panels. I have a 68 Custom that I absolutely adore. The Celestian 10 speaker is the 10" version of the vintage 30, supposedly. There's an 18k resistor in the bass circuit that adds some woof to it. This may add too much bass for some folks. If you want to get rid of this extra umph, simply take the chassis out and on top of the circuit board is a resistor. Bypass that resister with a piece of wire and you're good to go.
The scoop in the Deluxe is because there is a mid control. Turn the mids most of the way up. Fender really threw way more features into the Blackface Deluxe than needed. Drop the first channel, drop the tremolo, and then cathode bias it so it goes smooth into distortion.The 12" is the defacto guitar speaker size. Right now I am building an amp like this in a 5E3 chassis and cabinet, just without reverb. I even did a mod where I can remove the NFB for a more British type distortion to open it up - more a feature for recording, but it still sounds great.
When worlds collide! Two of my favorite youtubers at one time!! Good stuff guys. I prefer one of each, then get them from each fender era... I know, I know I have a terminal case of GAS and AAS (amp acquisition syndrome) LOL I love the content Keith!! PS where can I get a shirt like Zacs?
There is a link on Zac's youtube where you can find that shirt
As of Monday I will be down to 4 amps (and I think that this is about as low as I can go). Tube: A tweed Princeton I built from a kit and a Princeton Reverb with a 12" in a slightly larger cab that was professionally built. SS: A Henrikson The Bud that I use for Jazz duo gigs and a Boss Katana 50 (which is a great replacement for my old Micro Cube). I'm a happy guy, and I am keenly aware of my incredible good fortune.
I'm glad you guys discussed the tube v. solidstate issue. As much as I liked my HRD, I just couldn't use it at the volume it sounded best. I fought a few different tube amps before settling on a crate Vintage club 30, because it was the only amp that sounded okay "not too lous" for home.
But then comes the maintenance. I went through several sets of tubes, a few trips to the amp tech, and a couple speakers before I went to a Blues Cube.
And now , I'm looking at adding either a nextone or a tubemaster to make my own wet/dry rig.
I don't gig. I just want enough volume to "feel" the sound, yet not have the cops called to my house if my noodling goes late.
Realize the TM stuff is not serviceable/ repairable. 🙄🙄
Very good information and I know nothing about amps. You have raised so many questions. Time to start learning more. Thank you, guys.
Great conversation. Very insightful. & 2 of my favorite YT-ers. What's not to like? Thanks!
G'Dray to Syracuse. !!
Hope the weather is better than ROC. 🙄
My first amp was a Deluxe 112 plus. Which these days a lot of people shit on, but I remember at the time everyone would rave about the sound, until I told them it was solid state.
Then they could suddenly hear the difference 😅
I had no idea what it was “meant to” sound like, so I just dialled it in until it sounded good to me, rather than trying to match a totally different amp. Sounded the same quiet or really loud (& it would get wall shakingly loud)
I have both amps, and they're great. They are real 64's. I lean towards the deluxe more, but the Princeton has this beautiful sparkle that the deluxe is missing. I've done some recordings with both amps in stereo and it's glorious. Using slightly different reverb and tremolo settings on each amp gives a beautifully wide image. Both amps have had their speakers replaced. I have a 10" 2122 h JBL in the Princeton and a German-made Jensen style 12" Alnico speaker that is the best I've ever heard for the Deluxe reverb, I did a lot of testing and this speaker was the most pleasing to me. Unfortunately, they are now discontinued and are quite difficult to find.
I bought the '65 Deluxe Reverb reissue in 2005, downsizing from a '66 Pro Reverb. I sold the Deluxe in 2008 because I was never satisfied with the thin bright sound. In the early eighties I had owned an actual mid sixties model. The comparison was unfavorable to the reissue, perhaps unfairly. I got on the waiting list for a Tone King Imperial. When one became available in September 2008 I drove immediately down to Portland to pick it up. That's my keeper amp.
You left out the Super Champ !!
Mine still kicks butt some 35 years later
Never been in the Shop either
Not sure how I missed this livestream but I loved it! Thank you both!
I love my Sweetwater exclusive Princeton in tweed livery with a 12" speaker. As a jazz and blues amp, it sounds amazing with the volume at 4.5. It also takes a T808 pedal well with a Strat that has Texas Special pickups for the SRV sound. For rock, I play through a Vox AC15C1. The downside is the Vox is very loud and not so good for home practice.
I have both those amps as well. Obviously a night and day difference in tone. As others have said, I don't like my p90 guitars through the Princeton. But how glorious my LP Jr's sound through the Vox.
As far as the Vox goes for playing at quiet levels, its possible. If you're talking about the version with a normal channel and a Top Boost, it's set up so that the master volume is really a power amp gain, and the individual channel volumes are like preamp gain.
So, you can turn the master volume down to like 1/2 and turn the channel volume up to 7-8 and get some great Marshall bees-in-a-can preamp overdrive at acceptable volume levels.
Great show! Somewhat similar to a Deluxe, I have a Rivera Stage IV 1x12 combo that feels, sounds, plays well. It's very heavy though.
I like the Eminence 10-inch Ramrod. It does sound like a 12-inch speaker.
Excellent discussion, thanks!
I'm with Zac, I own a deeluxe reeverb and a GITar, The pronunciation is also part of the mojo.
I think the difference between the '65 BF Tone Master vs the '68 is the speaker. The '65 having a Jensen N12K and the '68 having the Celestion G12 Neo Creamback, which is a Neo version of a G12M and does have more headroom. Basically it is kind of like the Brownface amps having a more premium speaker, like the old JBL speakers.
What a fantastic video have a wonderful long weekend
⚓️ Thanks Zac Keith 😎
Thank you Keith
Zac child’s taking me back home to Clawson’s Music. ❤
For a good example of the difference listen to Marty Stuart and Kenny Vaughn.
I’m really enjoying my sweetwater Princeton and my Mesa fillmore 25 small amps. I would love to have something bigger but not sure I need it.
I really need to try a vintage 30 in my deluxe , the evm kinda has the lower back, ummm not so well…lol two tone titans talking here, listening intently on these words…not sure how I missed this gem!
I'm with Zac; and with Keith: "If you're going to make something that looks like a thing, don't be surprised if I compare it to that thing." Are the Fender reissues useful? Sure. Are ToneMaster amps useful? Yes. Still, neither the reissues nor the TMs sound much like the classic amps they're pretending to be. Better/worse is subjective. But to build an amp that looks like something that it's not seems unkosher - IMHO.
At home 69 Princeton w gold back 10” And Master Volume added. Stage, Fender Deluxe 64 reissue. Best of all worlds. Playing 1962 Reissue Tele And Strat Made in Japan. Still trying to right pedals right and road worthy for stage sound.
Princeton Chorus is really clean. I found it worked well as a bass amp
Kieth, I’m watching this in late August 2024
It’s just dawned on me, as a Brit don’t laugh, your speaking voice accent on Adam a7x monitors:
… Henry Fonda
I watch your channel often and now I know 😅
This is video I was looking for……
I am about to buy one of those 64 Hand Wired.
But I still don’t know which one
for mainly home use……
It’s a pity that Fender is not offering those
in a Head Version……
You gotta know the famous Florabama Lounge down on the Gulf Coast if you've ever vacationed from Gulf Shores to Perdido Key.
Hey Keith, this was my first time actually getting to watch a live stream. Loved it. I was trying to ask if you would ever do a tonemaster vs quilter aviator video or if you just wanted to play both side by side. I'm not far from you!
Hi Ken, Thanks but honestly I struggle to NOT try lots of different stuff. Just a slow and steady journey.
@fivewattworld I certainly can't say I blame you. I I feel like there's always something to buy or something to upgrade. It's exhausting. Hence, what led me to your channel in the first place.
In the middle of the video you guys started rating the amps (0-5?). It took me a while to figure out that's what you were doing as you started out talking numbers on the knobs. I went back to listen to that section again knowing that you were spewing out two different sets of numbers, but I STILL couldn't keep track at any moment of whether the reference regarded rating or maybe volume preference...
Sorry, it was live
I would consider a Tone Master amp, but it would have to be a used one at a good price. The price of used ones would go down much more than Fender tube amps. Also, IMHO, Fender missed an opportunity by not putting effects loops in the TMs, so they could also be used to amplify modelers.
Have had both (not the tone masters, but the tube versions). I sold my Deluxe Reverb as the Princeton was more of what I wanted from that particular style of amp. YMMV.
I have an original black face 1967 PR with a 12 “ Weber blue…( still have the original 😊10” and baffle ) IMO sounds much better.
Okay, here’s my thought, because I’m a dude and it’s RUclips.
If I was going to capitulate and go solid state modeling, I’d have a hard time not just taking my Katana. I’m sure it’s not as good, but if I’m already going down the scale, the Katana is fine (it’s pretty great actually), although it’s not much lighter than my Geminis, so who knows?
I enjoyed this talk a lot. What I got from
this is that the Blond Tone Master Deluxe was the favorite, scoring 5/5 for everything.
One this I was missing is that nobody mentioned the Tone Master Twin, which is also available in Blonde. What I got from other videos is that it’s main difference with the Deluxe is that it has a mid control, which some found very important + that it stays clean longer and thus takes pedals better. What’s your take on the Twin.
I’ve pretty much decided on a Blonde, but cannot compare the Deluxe vs Twin easily.
I just can't figure out why Fender made such cool modern amps WITHOUT an effect loop.
HUGE miss... all they needed to do was include an effects loop with a true bypass switch!
Good times!
Fantastic episode 🎵
Dig your vids man and Zac is feckin awsome. I've learnt sooooo much from him sin after 30 of plating guitar as a drummer I got the tele bug. Learn a hell of alpy from you too man so thank you both!
The hot rod series and re-issue series amps from fender sound great but there build with cheapo components and a really thin pcb board and when you get problems with them this becomes an expensive repair . The 64 hand build ones are way to expensive to buy for a working stiff like me so to me the tonemasters amps are the answer , i have had my black TM DR for more then 4 years now and it's working fine , so yeah .
Great video...I didn't know the Fender Princeton and up had same pre-amp circuit.....
I think it would be wise of Fender to a a mid control to their Tone Master and tube powered Princeton and Deluxe Reverb models. And I would like to see both offered in a 1X15 cabinet or at least a head version as well as a combo.
Zac considers a FWW ban / mute as a Merit Badge!
I would!
Amen
Love the topic, good information. I do have a question, though: Keith and Zac both say that the Tonemasters work well in a wet/dry or stereo rig. I'm hesitant to use a digital amp in a wet/dry or stereo setup next to a tube or analog solid-state amp due to the possibility of phasing issues arising from A/D conversion latency. Keith and Zac both have great ears, so I trust them when they say this, but seems counterintuitive based on my previously acquired information/understanding.
So zach the deluxe tonemaster blonde one is a 5 do not need a speaker swap maybe ill get one😊
Love this episode. No five watt in the home rig anymore?
I still have the custom champ I built w Dan at FYD. It’s in the back of all the history videos.
ditched a vintage p cuz it was a money pit. bought the fender custom 64 hw P…love it.
Zac's Topo Chico. 😻
I got a real Princeton and tone master, I think it's pretty close for cleans and for something that's all digital fender did great, however when u start driving it, it don't sound like a tube amp. change the speaker over to a Jenson alnico 10. It's even closer, for clean
had a 58 tweed harvard and a blond tremuluxe with a stovepipe e.v.12 inch speaker.they were almost equal in sound,harvard only had a10 inch speaker,10 watts. tremuluxe had 35 watts
Both amps are great I like 12 inch speakers with higher headroom though I think the tone masters are muddy and dark though loses some of the fender chime.
Makes me sad to know how many great fender amps I blew up and threw in the trash in the 70's. I just didn't understand the value of amps and guitars.
Tube availability for the common gigging musician is a huge consideration these days.
I needed to hear this. I've been looking for a new amp Have it down to 3 brands, Fender being one of them . I own a ss deluxe 112 . So I'm leaning towards a Tube. Thanks Men
My dad says "RUH-verb". But hes OLD and grew up in Jacksonville. 😂
The 68 breaks up earlier because they took out the bright cap and Negative Feedback Loop.That makes the difference.
I always preferred the Deluxe over the Princeton mainly because of its 12" inch speaker versus the 10" speaker of the Princeton. To my ears, a single 12" inch speaker sounds much better, bigger and fuller. But I needed an amp with a bit more power, so I got a used 1968 silverface Vibrolux (35 watts) modded by my friend and amp wizard Rick Onslow. And my Vibrolux is now equipped with a 12" inch speaker and a 10" speaker...( Celestion alnico speakers) Beautiful tone!
I have a 65 Deluxe RI that I play mostly in my living room, a little bit in my basement recording studio. I've at various times switched 12AX7 preamp tubes for 12AT7 which knocks some of the power off, also currently it has an old USA made Truetone rectifier tube (a 5Y3 I think) in it which also knocks off some dbs and makes it compress a little bit earlier. My point is that with the real tube amps you can use alternative tube configurations to tailor the amp to your liking. Mine also has a Celestion Vintage 30 that I like a lot (based on Zac's recommendation). I'm playing pretty quietly, solo jazz tunes, and it sounds great to my ears, breaks up quickly if you turn it up past 3. If I go play at someone else's place it's easy enough to fit in the car, not too heavy. For me it's the perfect amp!
Love all the real reasons here. Way to dial it man.
This was such a great two-some interview . . . you guys are the best ;-)
Hey there, Keith…a friend of mine was telling me about an amp I have never heard of before called “Freedom”. His words were “a Michael Mathew’s Freedom amp”. Have you heard of such a thing? Supposed to be deadly. Oh yeah, 200w. Thanks! Lol Nice intro.
Sorry i haven’t
My bud is a fingerstyle solo Jazz guy. I feel the Deluxe is too much for some venues, yet Princeton to small. The Harvard needs to be brought in to this conversation.
Here is 2 cents from someone who should just keep his mouth shut considering the great players I’m addressing but here goes. I find the Hot Rod Deluxe almost as boxy and uninspiring as the Blues Junior. A speaker upgrade helps considerably but they have so many component and layout faults that it’s just not worth the price of admission. The reissue Deluxe and Princeton are so superior and still benefit from speaker changes but it makes no sense to me to skimp. Just my opinion after extensive amp trials.
Headstrong, Suhr, Milkman, Bartel, Swart, Rift, or any other great boutique builds don’t even belong in the same conversation. I realize I’m missing the topic here but getting down to sub thousand dollar amps, the Vox AC15C1 hits way beyond its price point.
Love your channels guys.