💯 Them stating they never received the email, when the plaintiff shows the email was sent to the correct address, is an affirmative defense. They have to prove that they never actually received the email. Also, never opening an email they received isn't an excuse either. That's negligence on their part.
Exactly. They reasonably should have been aware because the plaintiff sent them notice in what was considered a valid method of communication by all parties involved. It's not then the plaintiff's fault HR didn't do what they were supposed to.
No, it is not negligence because there was no duty of care. If server logs show the message was never opened then it is impossible for it to be retaliation.
@@Christopher_Gibbons yeah, negligence was the wrong term. Essentially they had given reason (policies, past precedent, etc...) for the plaintiff to believe that this method of communication was proper and they would read the message. Any court is not really going to be okay with an employee getting punished for other people not reasonably performing their duties. So, there is an implied duty of care here actually, but it's not quite negligence because it's not the direct cause of damages.
@@CreativityNull Sure they should know, but that has nothing to do with the case. The case is about retaliation, nothing else. You can’t retaliate against something you didn’t know happened.
i had a boss do the same lol then tried to get I T to go in and delete the tread out of everyones email lol thru email lol i t cc'd hr saying i can not do this that boss was gone the next day
When I started working it was called the personnel department. Seemed like they were on the employees side Then they changed to Human resources. A "Resource" is something that can be used up, and replenished. Like lumber or firewood
Yes, it's call human resources because they manage the resources, aka you. You are just a resource to your company, to be used up and tossed away as soon as convenient...
This is why I use the blind copy function for HR issues as well. Email the boss/HR about anything to do with contracts, leave or issues like disability and then I blind copy my personal email as well. That way HR can’t claim to have not seen it and I have a continuous record of the discussion even if I’m fired, lose access to my work computer/email or if the company try to cover it up.
@@jashpaper8370When you write an email there are usually two additional options or lines for recipients. CC (Carbon Copy) is usually used for people you want to see a copy of the email but aren't the direct recipient. But anyone who is CC'd on the email will have their email address show up to all recipients BCC (blind Carbon Copy) is the same as CC except these email address will not show up for the recipients of the email. Essentially this person is BCC'ing their personal email so they get a copy of the email but the HR recipient won't be able to see they sent it to themselves
@@jashpaper8370 it's the same as cc'ing, but the recpient doesn't see the other memebers who were sent the email. This is especially useful if the comany does something shady like delete the email from their server.
Hi, Former Systems Administrator here. It's incredibly easy to find out if emails were sent, received, opened, deleted ect. We can check this down to the second. Generally, companies are required to have mail servers backed up for legal reasons and this is all info that be recalled if legal orders are placed. IT knows exactly what you did and didn't get.
From a cyber security expert. Email metadata can show if they received the email and if they read and and deleted it with timestamp and everything with ip address. All of that is logged at the email server.
That depends on a lot of things. If it was recieved into a mailbox that move the email into a PST file, you can't 100% determine whether it was read and/or deleted.
@@Moosetick2002 Depends on the logging available and if you are tuned into it for monitoring. Between O365 and Microsoft general logging there are a few dedicated events for things such as ItemMoved, SoftDeletes, HardDeletes or just making a redirect rule that puts specific emails in weird spots.
You can disable read receipts. I do it on work email because some people have sent Items that needed to be Tickets and use that as proof they sent it in. Best bet is BCCing your personal email when emailing HR
Interestingly, this is _exactly_ the reason that Tracking Pixels exist. As long as the email client auto-loads external content like images (which is hit-or-miss depending on the system), you _could_ have exact timestamps and IP addresses of when and where an email was opened (like a covert Read-Receipt the end user is _not_ informed of and given the chance to proactively deny) if you planned ahead and set things up properly.
If the client CC'd themself, you could file discovery on HR's email server for all message metadata. Bet you'd find all sorts of interesting things there!
Add all Message Tracking Logs and Mail Server System Logs, and the documentation about the company's Email service or system deployment, to that discovery request. The most common mail servers should have Tracking logs for Delivery status of every email message that went through their system in at least the last 30 days by default, possibly longer. But it would be very unusual to not have 30 days of tracking logs. These Logs MAY be in the hands of the company's Email hosting provider if they are using Office 365 or Google Workspace.... Not sure then, the request for logs Might need to go to Microsoft, Google, etc, whoever is providing that company with their email service
@@Mysdia "Not sure then, the request for logs Might need to go to Microsoft, Google, etc, whoever is providing that company with their email service" Good faith practice would be to 1st request from the employer (who would in turn request from their service provider), then if the employer didn't comply go directly to the service provider. Problem with immediately going directly to the service provider is it makes you look like the one who doesn't want to follow procedure... and you're also basically initiating legal action against a 2nd party. The service provider is also not going to give you the time of day sans a legal order because they have a vested interest in maintaining their client's privacy (as they should... they shouldn't just be releasing client data at the drop of a hat)
@@kgoblin5084 Problem here is Time of the essence. If the employer is too slow, then the data is gone before you got them on notice. So maybe you send the subpoena ordering to preserve evidence to the service provider simultaneously. This is not outside procedures. If you can tell a 3rd party is in control of the customer data, then you serve the 3rd party. It's similar to sending Facebook an order for all the posts belonging to a certain account -- the order doesn't go To the account holder to find a way of downloading the materials; it goes to Facebook to provide the materials that are stored on their servers.
When I got fired for pointing out to my bosses that they had probably violated my civil rights by not being compliant with CA State law regarding accommodations for breastfeeding mothers, they most certainly told me that I was going to be fired for "being late".
@@holdencross5904 I was also told that if I cashed my last paycheck it would automatically forfeit my ability to get the Union to review my termination. What should I have done, not pay rent?
@@holdencross5904 that checks out. Now here's the kicker... When there was a class action lawsuit against this company I didn't know what "to opt out"meant and basically gave up my right to sue them, and received a cheque for $8.50!
Had that happen to my brother. He's dead now from the things that made him more and more disabled... thanks, Walmart. He actually loved working for you since he was good at it.
I am so sorry. Walmart has been known to buy dead peasant insurance and then actually profit on the death of an Employee. Pleas have your attorney check into this also. Again I am so sorry for your loss.
That's how I got laid off. They abused me until I had a mental breakdown. The partial hospitalization program I was in sent a fax. HR waited three days (NY state law) and obviously lied when they claimed they didn't get it.
I was at a place for 4 years, doing good work for a position that takes years of training for. Got into a car accident one day and hurt my back, called in every single day to tell them until my doctor cleared me to go in the next week. Called them and told them i was clear to return to work starting the next week, 2 days later i get a letter saying i abandoned my position and i was fired. I understand companies should be able to fire who ever they dont want but it can absolutely be abused to avoid having to pay for unemployment and its bs
I'm gonna disagree here. No, a company shouldnt just get to fire someone without a good reason. They signed a contract to employ you, so as long as you keep up your end of said contract, they should be required to keep up theirs, or at a minimum offer you some chance at negotiating if they want to change that.
Lawyer up to challenge for unemployment, and over their failure to provide reasonable accommodation. **You are allowed only 180 days from the time of violation to get request to sue filing into the eeoc. Good luck!
Protip: Email servers log whenever an email is opened and read, even without a receipt. It's called "metadata" and it never lies. You can subpoena the metadata and prove that the email was received and read.
I have an email filtering app that tells me when the email has been opened. It tells me the exact time and date that my email is opened and viewed. So that won’t work. Sorry HR
When you send an email, the receiving server gets it and (usually) delivers it to the intended recipient. You can request “read receipts” but that’s something the recipient has to opt in to. There’s no way to tell what happens to that email after it hits the recipient’s mail server unless you do something slimy like embed a hidden pixel that calls to a web server or something similar.
@@RKNGL Honestly it's less about covering myself legally and more a technical thing. Because yeah, glitches _do_ happen and sometimes emails actually do fail to send, but if I don't get a BCC copy I know that that's occurred right away, which prevents confusion later.
This is completely dependent upon the features that happen to exist within the mail server being used and further how it's configured. Email itself has no provision for guaranteeing delivery nor giving notice when delivery fails.
If that's the email address that all such disability leave requests/notices go through, it's a failure on your part to have missed it. An application through the proper channels does not go unnoticed unless you're either experiencing a serious problem, or are intentionally ignoring those applications. In the former case, you would have evidence that you were trying to fix it. In the latter case, that's discriminatory behavior, plain and simple.
As a former HR assistant I always low key hinted that along with kinda mentioning know your rights since the Director of HR for a certain pizza chain franchise would tell us to start a "paper trail" and "find flaws" to get rid of what they called "wasted payroll" people.
Keep in mind that BCC isn't invisible to the mail administrators. The company knows or can find out. CC is just inviting engineered problems if they decide they want to make an issue out of it.
People need to learn about sending message receipts attached to their emails...they can't claim they never got it if when they open it you get a message saying they did.
This is why i love my company and will never ever leave. I come off 6 months leave of absence this coming sunday due to a medical condition. My HR was amazing to me, even gave me several extensions due to me being hospitalized and unable to get key paperwork in on time. No hiccups, no issues, no being jerked around at all. I will die on this hill. Progressive Ins is the best corporation in the US, to both their employees and customers.
100%, I do this all the time. Need to keep a trail of the conversation in case the employer takes away your access to work computer or starts deleting emails from the IT system to cover their tracks.
Right before you ask them for disability leave, ask a benign question about how to cancel PTO or something. Then you have proof that it just worked right before you asked about disability leave.
They called to tell me I had to get my Dr to fill the papers out for disability leave than fired me for not working for 2 weeks 😮💨 after I got the "note" for them.
when i was being fired for "refusing to work" i said i sent my doctors leave to my supervisor and he said he never got it, we used whats ap... and it records EVERYTHING so i pulled my phone out and the message board had copy of note and everything, region boss "well we have no legal reason to fire you now..." me "and i have no reason to stay ill take my 3 moths of pay for not going to union thank you very muh :D
These can be circumvented -- easily in fact. You need to request the "metadata" via a subpoena, as the receipt and reading of an email is logged in the system back-end with no way for the end user to prevent that logging.
Always BCC yourself on emails like this to your private email address. You can also CC yourself but then in outlook drag and drop that cc copy into a new mail message and send that to your private email. You now have a copy with all headers that can be forwarded onto your attorney with adding additional data to that evidence.
I am having medical issues and am worried I might be pre-diabetic. These shorts are very informative for me as I may have to notify my hr department that I have a medical issue and need reasonable accommodations.
It sounds like you need to request an intermittent fmla. That protects recurring leave for the same medical condition if you qualify. Check with your hr department on how to apply and to receive the proper forms. You can Google intermittent fmla requirements on the department of labor website for qualifications. You also can request reasonable accommodations under the Americans with Disability Act (ada). Check with the ada website for more details.
SOX compliance plain and simple. Take the original email and originating server and backwards you work. Contrary to what people think Emails do not just go into untraceable lala land. To comply with SOX, corporations must save all business records, including electronic records and electronic messages, for “not less than five years.”
Anything I need a secure footprint on, I patch in a second recipient CC and a third recipient BCC, including a BCC to myself. This establishes the email made the entire trip end-to-end. It also lets HR know that someone else has a record of what they're on notice for
Is "that's bs. yall routinely use this email" pretty solid, or could it be effectively disputed with "with how much spam we get, it's easy to miss things"? Would they have to prove that with email records? Wondering if "We DiDnT sEe It" is easy to disprove or if it's safer to avoid terms like "disability" in the subject and attach delivery & read receipts?
Even with spam records, it's suspicious that they would have one of the first emails they were sent by a *starting employee* would end up going to spam. That's, like, the one type of email addresses they *should* be reading even if it gets flagged as spam.
HR is like Internal investigation units in police departments. They seem like they're impartial and there to "do the right thing" until they remind you who employs them.
So…there are places and people who just…send out an email about disability then just…don’t come to work? I’ve never seen or heard of that before. Nonetheless, I might have to try it!
It worries me IMMENSELY that too many people dont know their rights. I've talked to so many people who have been fired wrongly fired in an at will state and DON'T think they can sue. They think at will means you can't do ANYTHING. This kind of stuff needs to he taught in schools.
That is bs. If you send an email to anyone in your company they receive it. If it is not addressed correctly it is bounced back to you within seconds. So you can correct the email address. Plus just add a receipt to it.
Not only that, you can prove you sent it from your side so that alone is strong case right here that whoever is responsible for that "failure" it's not you.
If you use outlook, enable sent and read receipts and CC yourself to a personal email and a direct supervisor for extremely important emails like this. Now there is a paper trail they can't just delete from their own private system.
I love lawyers who fight for regular people and AGAINST the sleazy slimy corporate bullshit. Rock on, dude. You get those people their money...and you get compensated for your badass work as well.
Another thing to look for with email is the undeliverable notification that the sending server will send back. Also worth looking at is the spam filter settings and logs on the receiving end.
it then gets to the point where people are questioning "why am i willing to go back to work for this company if this is how they treated me and would likely continue to do so if i return to working for them."
That’s why every important email I send is sent with a delivered and read receipt. Most emails now have this option. Now you have proof that someone opened your email.
bcc Is a wonderful thing too. Add the HR director to the bcc and your direct supervisory chain and watch the fireworks happen as they all receive the copy and they can indirectly show the email was sent. Just make sure to save a hard copy of the full email with names & addresses printed.
For important emails I always set the acknowledge of receipt on it so in order for the person to read it they have to tag as read. You get a confirmation when done. In outlook is available, also gmail.
Read receipts on emails are a wonderful thing. Whenever we send emails out at this level of importance, we always check the "read receipt" box AS WELL AS the "Urgent" exclamation point. Whenever we have issues where people "never got it", we have the read receipt. On things that have an even greater importance, we also post mail with tracking and signature. We send the mail, then follow up with email on these cases. (Posted same day or day before) Email is SO MUCH MORE RELIABLE than regular postal mail these days.
I would have sent that same email 3 times a day. And I would have continued to do so until they told me to stop and that, "we have received your email."
Thats why i always download and print out my paper trails as proof. So a company cant screw me over. Especially if they have you send stuff through a company email, they can get into that (illegal but happens rarely and hard for a pleb to prove and take action against) and screw around and make it look like nothing was sent from your end. ALWAYS be paranoid a company or individual boss will try to screw you over. Cover all your bases. Had a supervisor try to screw me over for their bad planning and organization when i had to go to physical therapy for a couple months. I reminded her every damn week in writing what days my appointments were that i would be about an hour late showing up to work. Then she forgets one day and doesnt have keys to get into the building as other coworker had the other pair and super scheduled them at another location that day. She tried to blame me for not reminding her and mark my record, when i had no freaking clue coworker was gonna be gone and my key would be needed to open. Blew up my phone when i was at my appointment and came back to missed calls and texts. I went straight to HR when time permitted with my evidence and had that mark removed. She got a slap on the wrist instead and told not to mess with people who have medical shit going on because i could have filed harassment with how much she blew up my phone flipping out at me (i worked at a tiny bank location that had only 2 employees there at any given time, so it is a serious predicament for her to not be keeping track of her underlings schedules, and she only had 5 of us across 2 locations). Never trust anyone. Look out for yourself.
I remember when the college I used to work for was moving from an antiquated email to a newer one, the legal department protested because the old one was easier to hide HR shenanigans behind. Yeah, that just pushed us forward faster...
That's the strategy my bad workplace did too. They "never received" the emails or faxes from my doctor's office. I had to scan them in at work and send them directly from my work email. Negligent and absurd of them to do.
Whenever you send an email to HR for disability leave, let them know that you Cc'd it to your LAWYER and the business's legal department. As soon as HR sees words like lawyer, they will take it seriously.
The electronic footprint is a beautiful thing.
not for everyone. I'm doomed
@@PloaperWhy? Are you in HR?
@@James-ws9ze
Nope.
@Ploaper
You're not. You will be ok buddy.
@tuukkatuukkayou cant read can you? 😂
💯 Them stating they never received the email, when the plaintiff shows the email was sent to the correct address, is an affirmative defense. They have to prove that they never actually received the email. Also, never opening an email they received isn't an excuse either. That's negligence on their part.
Exactly. They reasonably should have been aware because the plaintiff sent them notice in what was considered a valid method of communication by all parties involved. It's not then the plaintiff's fault HR didn't do what they were supposed to.
No, it is not negligence because there was no duty of care. If server logs show the message was never opened then it is impossible for it to be retaliation.
@@Christopher_Gibbons yeah, negligence was the wrong term. Essentially they had given reason (policies, past precedent, etc...) for the plaintiff to believe that this method of communication was proper and they would read the message. Any court is not really going to be okay with an employee getting punished for other people not reasonably performing their duties.
So, there is an implied duty of care here actually, but it's not quite negligence because it's not the direct cause of damages.
There’s an auditable electronic trail for every message. I’d imagine it could be supboenaed by the court.
@@CreativityNull Sure they should know, but that has nothing to do with the case. The case is about retaliation, nothing else. You can’t retaliate against something you didn’t know happened.
I once had someone deny getting an email-that they had replied to.
Lmao!!
Those are always the best
Same here 🤣
Mean people but stupid
i had a boss do the same lol then tried to get I T to go in and delete the tread out of everyones email lol thru email lol i t cc'd hr saying i can not do this that boss was gone the next day
I was once told I replied to an email I never read
Remember everybody: HR is NOT your advocate.
Unless you're giving them a reason to fire a bad worker. Then they love you.
When I started working it was called the personnel department. Seemed like they were on the employees side
Then they changed to Human resources.
A "Resource" is something that can be used up, and replenished. Like lumber or firewood
Yes, it's call human resources because they manage the resources, aka you. You are just a resource to your company, to be used up and tossed away as soon as convenient...
If you want an advocate form or join a union. Or enjoy hiring lawyers for ever little thing.
@@thecrocClient won't have to up front a dime If the payoff's big enough, and the attorney is confident he can win.
This is why I use the blind copy function for HR issues as well. Email the boss/HR about anything to do with contracts, leave or issues like disability and then I blind copy my personal email as well. That way HR can’t claim to have not seen it and I have a continuous record of the discussion even if I’m fired, lose access to my work computer/email or if the company try to cover it up.
What is blind copy function?
@@jashpaper8370 The line labeled “BCC:”. You may need to click something to show it on some clients.
@@jashpaper8370When you write an email there are usually two additional options or lines for recipients. CC (Carbon Copy) is usually used for people you want to see a copy of the email but aren't the direct recipient. But anyone who is CC'd on the email will have their email address show up to all recipients
BCC (blind Carbon Copy) is the same as CC except these email address will not show up for the recipients of the email.
Essentially this person is BCC'ing their personal email so they get a copy of the email but the HR recipient won't be able to see they sent it to themselves
Smart move BCC 8s i
@@jashpaper8370 it's the same as cc'ing, but the recpient doesn't see the other memebers who were sent the email.
This is especially useful if the comany does something shady like delete the email from their server.
Hi, Former Systems Administrator here. It's incredibly easy to find out if emails were sent, received, opened, deleted ect. We can check this down to the second. Generally, companies are required to have mail servers backed up for legal reasons and this is all info that be recalled if legal orders are placed.
IT knows exactly what you did and didn't get.
Yes, but you have to make them give out that information.
@@horeageorgian7766that is as simple as filing a discovery demand. If they don't provide the documents, they face legal penalties.
Yup. I currently work for an MSP and often handle "Is so-and-so getting my emails?". I'd say 99% of the time, the answer is "Yes".
@@horeageorgian7766 that's why you should be nice to your IT team :)
@@horeageorgian7766subpoena the e-mails
Take a screenshot of the email, then attach it to another email to them, with the subject line "Was I accidentally overpaid?"
Lol!
From a cyber security expert. Email metadata can show if they received the email and if they read and and deleted it with timestamp and everything with ip address. All of that is logged at the email server.
Ayyy noice
That depends on a lot of things. If it was recieved into a mailbox that move the email into a PST file, you can't 100% determine whether it was read and/or deleted.
@@Moosetick2002 Depends on the logging available and if you are tuned into it for monitoring. Between O365 and Microsoft general logging there are a few dedicated events for things such as ItemMoved, SoftDeletes, HardDeletes or just making a redirect rule that puts specific emails in weird spots.
There is an option in outlook to add an email confirmation that notifies when they opened the emial
The recipient has to manually choose to allow the read request
You can disable read receipts. I do it on work email because some people have sent Items that needed to be Tickets and use that as proof they sent it in. Best bet is BCCing your personal email when emailing HR
@@Loupgarou21 True, do you get any info back like "The recipient declined your request"?
@@rvh1020 no, you get no feedback if the sender declines the read receipt request
Interestingly, this is _exactly_ the reason that Tracking Pixels exist. As long as the email client auto-loads external content like images (which is hit-or-miss depending on the system), you _could_ have exact timestamps and IP addresses of when and where an email was opened (like a covert Read-Receipt the end user is _not_ informed of and given the chance to proactively deny) if you planned ahead and set things up properly.
If the client CC'd themself, you could file discovery on HR's email server for all message metadata. Bet you'd find all sorts of interesting things there!
That's smart
Add all Message Tracking Logs and Mail Server System Logs, and the documentation about the company's Email service or system deployment, to that discovery request. The most common mail servers should have Tracking logs for Delivery status of every email message that went through their system in at least the last 30 days by default, possibly longer. But it would be very unusual to not have 30 days of tracking logs. These Logs MAY be in the hands of the company's Email hosting provider if they are using Office 365 or Google Workspace.... Not sure then, the request for logs Might need to go to Microsoft, Google, etc, whoever is providing that company with their email service
I was just abt to bring this up lol, think it’s probably best practice to audit the server if anything.
@@Mysdia "Not sure then, the request for logs Might need to go to Microsoft, Google, etc, whoever is providing that company with their email service"
Good faith practice would be to 1st request from the employer (who would in turn request from their service provider), then if the employer didn't comply go directly to the service provider.
Problem with immediately going directly to the service provider is it makes you look like the one who doesn't want to follow procedure... and you're also basically initiating legal action against a 2nd party.
The service provider is also not going to give you the time of day sans a legal order because they have a vested interest in maintaining their client's privacy (as they should... they shouldn't just be releasing client data at the drop of a hat)
@@kgoblin5084 Problem here is Time of the essence. If the employer is too slow, then the data is gone before you got them on notice. So maybe you send the subpoena ordering to preserve evidence to the service provider simultaneously. This is not outside procedures. If you can tell a 3rd party is in control of the customer data, then you serve the 3rd party. It's similar to sending Facebook an order for all the posts belonging to a certain account -- the order doesn't go To the account holder to find a way of downloading the materials; it goes to Facebook to provide the materials that are stored on their servers.
IT will be able to provide the server logs. If they don't provide it then you know you won!
Careful. In most organizations, the logs only go back 30 days. If the email is older than that and HR deleted it, it may not help your case
@@GreenvilleSCDashcam The logs are archived for years.
@GreenvilleSCDashcam we are required as sysadmins to keep backups for years. Even have plans for if something catastrophic happens 3-2-1 rule
It ain’t there to protect you, it’s there to protect the company
When I got fired for pointing out to my bosses that they had probably violated my civil rights by not being compliant with CA State law regarding accommodations for breastfeeding mothers, they most certainly told me that I was going to be fired for "being late".
Wrongful termination and retaliation
@@holdencross5904 I was also told that if I cashed my last paycheck it would automatically forfeit my ability to get the Union to review my termination. What should I have done, not pay rent?
@@kathrynmceachern9503 that is also ILLEGAL.
@@holdencross5904 that checks out. Now here's the kicker... When there was a class action lawsuit against this company I didn't know what "to opt out"meant and basically gave up my right to sue them, and received a cheque for $8.50!
Companies will do anything but the right thing
That's why the next day, you request for confirmation via email too
Had that happen to my brother. He's dead now from the things that made him more and more disabled... thanks, Walmart. He actually loved working for you since he was good at it.
How is this not a lawsuit?
So sorry 😞
But all big companies think of people as disposable and expendable. This is why unions are so important
I am so sorry. Walmart has been known to buy dead peasant insurance and then actually profit on the death of an Employee. Pleas have your attorney check into this also. Again I am so sorry for your loss.
@@SB0083 Lawsuits cost money and time, something people working at WalMart do not have in abundance.
HR Really using the equivalent of “my dog ate my Homework”
That's how I got laid off. They abused me until I had a mental breakdown. The partial hospitalization program I was in sent a fax. HR waited three days (NY state law) and obviously lied when they claimed they didn't get it.
I was at a place for 4 years, doing good work for a position that takes years of training for. Got into a car accident one day and hurt my back, called in every single day to tell them until my doctor cleared me to go in the next week. Called them and told them i was clear to return to work starting the next week, 2 days later i get a letter saying i abandoned my position and i was fired. I understand companies should be able to fire who ever they dont want but it can absolutely be abused to avoid having to pay for unemployment and its bs
You can submit your phone logs to prove you didn’t abandon the job and show the amount and length of calls
I'm gonna disagree here.
No, a company shouldnt just get to fire someone without a good reason.
They signed a contract to employ you, so as long as you keep up your end of said contract, they should be required to keep up theirs, or at a minimum offer you some chance at negotiating if they want to change that.
Lawyer up to challenge for unemployment, and over their failure to provide reasonable accommodation. **You are allowed only 180 days from the time of violation to get request to sue filing into the eeoc. Good luck!
Protip: Email servers log whenever an email is opened and read, even without a receipt. It's called "metadata" and it never lies. You can subpoena the metadata and prove that the email was received and read.
I have an email filtering app that tells me when the email has been opened. It tells me the exact time and date that my email is opened and viewed. So that won’t work. Sorry HR
What's it called? I'm curious.
When you send an email, the receiving server gets it and (usually) delivers it to the intended recipient. You can request “read receipts” but that’s something the recipient has to opt in to. There’s no way to tell what happens to that email after it hits the recipient’s mail server unless you do something slimy like embed a hidden pixel that calls to a web server or something similar.
Which app is that?
except it depends on how it works, so that it doesn't work, there is normally no way to tracking possible, if it doesn't use html
What app is that??
Hr= corporate protection, not employee
This is why you BCC and/or screenshot your personal email any time you interact with HR.
That's why I BCC myself on emails I send. If you receive a copy myself, that means it sent properly and that they should have received it.
If you CC yourself instead of BCCing you'll show up in the email's Metadata. The headers can be checked in discovery.
@@RKNGL Honestly it's less about covering myself legally and more a technical thing. Because yeah, glitches _do_ happen and sometimes emails actually do fail to send, but if I don't get a BCC copy I know that that's occurred right away, which prevents confusion later.
No it doesn’t. It means your send server and receive server are working, not theirs.
Fun one for you, email bouncebacks help with that presumption. Youll get bouncebacks for address typos, full mailbox or other technical failures.
The bounce back is called
MAILER DAEMON. Or something close to that.
This is completely dependent upon the features that happen to exist within the mail server being used and further how it's configured. Email itself has no provision for guaranteeing delivery nor giving notice when delivery fails.
If that's the email address that all such disability leave requests/notices go through, it's a failure on your part to have missed it. An application through the proper channels does not go unnoticed unless you're either experiencing a serious problem, or are intentionally ignoring those applications. In the former case, you would have evidence that you were trying to fix it. In the latter case, that's discriminatory behavior, plain and simple.
I was advised to always bcc myself
As a former HR assistant I always low key hinted that along with kinda mentioning know your rights since the Director of HR for a certain pizza chain franchise would tell us to start a "paper trail" and "find flaws" to get rid of what they called "wasted payroll" people.
I openly cc myself. Don't let them even think they can get away with pulling something
Keep in mind that BCC isn't invisible to the mail administrators. The company knows or can find out. CC is just inviting engineered problems if they decide they want to make an issue out of it.
People need to learn about sending message receipts attached to their emails...they can't claim they never got it if when they open it you get a message saying they did.
This is why i love my company and will never ever leave. I come off 6 months leave of absence this coming sunday due to a medical condition. My HR was amazing to me, even gave me several extensions due to me being hospitalized and unable to get key paperwork in on time. No hiccups, no issues, no being jerked around at all. I will die on this hill. Progressive Ins is the best corporation in the US, to both their employees and customers.
Also, bcc your personal email, if sending from a working email.
100%, I do this all the time. Need to keep a trail of the conversation in case the employer takes away your access to work computer or starts deleting emails from the IT system to cover their tracks.
Right before you ask them for disability leave, ask a benign question about how to cancel PTO or something. Then you have proof that it just worked right before you asked about disability leave.
They called to tell me I had to get my Dr to fill the papers out for disability leave than fired me for not working for 2 weeks 😮💨 after I got the "note" for them.
when i was being fired for "refusing to work" i said i sent my doctors leave to my supervisor and he said he never got it, we used whats ap... and it records EVERYTHING so i pulled my phone out and the message board had copy of note and everything, region boss "well we have no legal reason to fire you now..." me "and i have no reason to stay ill take my 3 moths of pay for not going to union thank you very muh :D
this is why you send important things with the receipt notification. then you can show that report that it was read.
HR tends to suck overall in my experience. Nothing human or resourceful about it.
send and read reciepts are wonderful
These can be circumvented -- easily in fact. You need to request the "metadata" via a subpoena, as the receipt and reading of an email is logged in the system back-end with no way for the end user to prevent that logging.
Read reports are also a thing.
That's why I send it with a read receipt 😅
You don't have to send the read receipt. I got a spam email at work and just refused to confirm receipt.
Always BCC yourself on emails like this to your private email address. You can also CC yourself but then in outlook drag and drop that cc copy into a new mail message and send that to your private email. You now have a copy with all headers that can be forwarded onto your attorney with adding additional data to that evidence.
Genius, you’re doing gods work man. This is why good people become lawyers (money is why bad people become lawyers)
At that point, im gonna take a video of me GIVING THEM THE PHYSICAL COPY and emailing that to them too
If email address is wrong the server sends back an error message.
I am having medical issues and am worried I might be pre-diabetic. These shorts are very informative for me as I may have to notify my hr department that I have a medical issue and need reasonable accommodations.
It sounds like you need to request an intermittent fmla. That protects recurring leave for the same medical condition if you qualify. Check with your hr department on how to apply and to receive the proper forms. You can Google intermittent fmla requirements on the department of labor website for qualifications.
You also can request reasonable accommodations under the Americans with Disability Act (ada). Check with the ada website for more details.
@@joyebriggs Thank you!
Worry doesn't qualify as a disability.
@@joywebster2678 I didnt say worry. And by the way stress (worry) does count as a mental illness.
SOX compliance plain and simple. Take the original email and originating server and backwards you work. Contrary to what people think Emails do not just go into untraceable lala land.
To comply with SOX, corporations must save all business records, including electronic records and electronic messages, for “not less than five years.”
the lifelong advice: your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part.
Even if they didn’t see it, who cares? Once there’s a paper trail that an official email account was used…they can tell their sob story to the judge.
"Ahh yes, we got every email but that specific one that would make us liable, Your Honor."
Good luck with that
If you did not see it, it is out of incompetence. I cannot do your job for you.
HR protects the company from the employee, not the employee from the company!
Always send multiple emails, phone calls, texts, etc. Just one and no response later is plausible they didn't get it.
Always CC HR related emails like this to personal emails. That way you have a copy and a date and time stamp.
All sent emails are already saved, wdym?
@@EbaniI think they mean if you were using your work email, which you could lose access to
Anything I need a secure footprint on, I patch in a second recipient CC and a third recipient BCC, including a BCC to myself.
This establishes the email made the entire trip end-to-end.
It also lets HR know that someone else has a record of what they're on notice for
Is "that's bs. yall routinely use this email" pretty solid, or could it be effectively disputed with "with how much spam we get, it's easy to miss things"? Would they have to prove that with email records?
Wondering if "We DiDnT sEe It" is easy to disprove or if it's safer to avoid terms like "disability" in the subject and attach delivery & read receipts?
Even with spam records, it's suspicious that they would have one of the first emails they were sent by a *starting employee* would end up going to spam.
That's, like, the one type of email addresses they *should* be reading even if it gets flagged as spam.
sorry, it is there problem, if they don't see it, but received it. if they don't receive it, it is there problem.
Go old school. Send a certified letter.
Like josh in the comments say there are server logs that show when it's been received opened and replied to. You got them by the balls
HR is like Internal investigation units in police departments. They seem like they're impartial and there to "do the right thing" until they remind you who employs them.
Wouldn't hurt to blind copy your attorney either.
So…there are places and people who just…send out an email about disability then just…don’t come to work? I’ve never seen or heard of that before. Nonetheless, I might have to try it!
It worries me IMMENSELY that too many people dont know their rights. I've talked to so many people who have been fired wrongly fired in an at will state and DON'T think they can sue. They think at will means you can't do ANYTHING. This kind of stuff needs to he taught in schools.
That is bs. If you send an email to anyone in your company they receive it. If it is not addressed correctly it is bounced back to you within seconds. So you can correct the email address. Plus just add a receipt to it.
Not only that, you can prove you sent it from your side so that alone is strong case right here that whoever is responsible for that "failure" it's not you.
If you use outlook, enable sent and read receipts and CC yourself to a personal email and a direct supervisor for extremely important emails like this. Now there is a paper trail they can't just delete from their own private system.
I love lawyers who fight for regular people and AGAINST the sleazy slimy corporate bullshit.
Rock on, dude. You get those people their money...and you get compensated for your badass work as well.
Send them physical certified mail, then bring the tracking number to court 😅
IT can do a message trace and prove it was delivered.
Good job, congratulations on the win. I really do thank you for your passion for your job.
That's why that type of email is "send to all recipients in the company, including ownership and the CEO."
i love living in a country with laws against "firing at will"
That’s why I send most important emails with a ‚read receipt‘
This is why certified, return receipt mail exists.
Another thing to look for with email is the undeliverable notification that the sending server will send back. Also worth looking at is the spam filter settings and logs on the receiving end.
Next time also send certified mail required signature 😂
Fun fact most emails have trackers to inform you when it’s been opened
it then gets to the point where people are questioning "why am i willing to go back to work for this company if this is how they treated me and would likely continue to do so if i return to working for them."
That’s why every important email I send is sent with a delivered and read receipt. Most emails now have this option. Now you have proof that someone opened your email.
Always ask a question in your email. Their answer from the beginning is proof they got it.
bcc Is a wonderful thing too. Add the HR director to the bcc and your direct supervisory chain and watch the fireworks happen as they all receive the copy and they can indirectly show the email was sent. Just make sure to save a hard copy of the full email with names & addresses printed.
Fact: HR is there to protect the organization, not the employees.
Another way would be to ask a question in the email, so that when answered you can prove they read it.
You can download your entire email history as well. Left a sketchy job and took a copy of all my emails on a hard drive
Get them to admit that under oath.
This is why you CC your personal email account whenever you send something to HR.
For important emails I always set the acknowledge of receipt on it so in order for the person to read it they have to tag as read. You get a confirmation when done. In outlook is available, also gmail.
In emails like this, get an email read receipt. If it doesn’t come, go to the office in person.
When you send a company email like that, bcc it to your personal email
Read receipts on emails are a wonderful thing. Whenever we send emails out at this level of importance, we always check the "read receipt" box AS WELL AS the "Urgent" exclamation point.
Whenever we have issues where people "never got it", we have the read receipt.
On things that have an even greater importance, we also post mail with tracking and signature. We send the mail, then follow up with email on these cases. (Posted same day or day before)
Email is SO MUCH MORE RELIABLE than regular postal mail these days.
Read receipts are a wonderful tool in these cases!
This is why you cc people in to the email as well it ensures that more people have eyes on the situation
I would have sent that same email 3 times a day. And I would have continued to do so until they told me to stop and that, "we have received your email."
Thats why i always download and print out my paper trails as proof. So a company cant screw me over. Especially if they have you send stuff through a company email, they can get into that (illegal but happens rarely and hard for a pleb to prove and take action against) and screw around and make it look like nothing was sent from your end. ALWAYS be paranoid a company or individual boss will try to screw you over. Cover all your bases.
Had a supervisor try to screw me over for their bad planning and organization when i had to go to physical therapy for a couple months. I reminded her every damn week in writing what days my appointments were that i would be about an hour late showing up to work. Then she forgets one day and doesnt have keys to get into the building as other coworker had the other pair and super scheduled them at another location that day. She tried to blame me for not reminding her and mark my record, when i had no freaking clue coworker was gonna be gone and my key would be needed to open. Blew up my phone when i was at my appointment and came back to missed calls and texts.
I went straight to HR when time permitted with my evidence and had that mark removed. She got a slap on the wrist instead and told not to mess with people who have medical shit going on because i could have filed harassment with how much she blew up my phone flipping out at me (i worked at a tiny bank location that had only 2 employees there at any given time, so it is a serious predicament for her to not be keeping track of her underlings schedules, and she only had 5 of us across 2 locations).
Never trust anyone. Look out for yourself.
"We never received your email," you know I can see it on my end too, right?
I remember when the college I used to work for was moving from an antiquated email to a newer one, the legal department protested because the old one was easier to hide HR shenanigans behind. Yeah, that just pushed us forward faster...
HR is not your friend. You're boss is not your friend.
Presumption for email is that if it's sent to the regular business it's received as soon as you have sent it.
That's the strategy my bad workplace did too. They "never received" the emails or faxes from my doctor's office. I had to scan them in at work and send them directly from my work email. Negligent and absurd of them to do.
“At will state” is my take-away.
“At will” simply nullifies every union.
Whenever you send an email to HR for disability leave, let them know that you Cc'd it to your LAWYER and the business's legal department. As soon as HR sees words like lawyer, they will take it seriously.
Our HR cannot get away with that. They sourced the disability/FML to a 3rd party to handle. It’s a whole well-documented process
You can quit whenever you want, for whatever reason you want. Turn-about is fair play!
This happened to me while I was on medical leave. No one would talk to me until I got the Union involved and then stuff actually started getting done.