Thank you for speaking out on this! It is a nice change of pace. This only mirrors a bigger problem, not just in the League of Legends community. People are so distracted these days to the point where they become gullible to believe whatever's being shoved in their face, as long as it sounds pleasing to their ego. Therefore, they don't even bother standing up against lies when they feel so secure in their own delusion. The majority are just looking to take the easiest way out to avoid the problems in their way, some even resorting to sacrifice their own dignity or worse to achieve that. Sadly, such mentality is what media promotes, everybody wanting to have it easy and comfortable. Humility ,sacrifice, patience, gratitude and so on... such traits are reaching scarcity. For the past years, I personally think we've been going down the hill at an alarming rate. Feels like the world's been turning upside down and it seems as if we've almost reached a point of no return.
Just the fact that rank is public but MMR is"hidden" is all you really need to know. Remember that Azzapp is one of the best if not the best velkoz player in the world and he has gotten hard stuck gold in NA before. Challenger players don't see it because they have actual teams to back them up and win together. You don't see that in low ELO.
Every single tencent game has some form of engagement based matchmaking. League is the only one it isn't confirmed in. To think that there is absolute no matchmaking manipulation to optimize for engagement(their most important metric) would be silly. There's no downside and only upside to say "this person is more likely to play 3-4 more games if they lose this game. Let's enforce a loss for them this game."
I feel like loser's q is a mindset. It's not the game or the matchmaking, it's how you personally react to it. Once you start negatively reacting to something, it's hard to swing back the other way. Also those 1/2^x odds only apply if you only play exactly x games. If you play 100 games with roughly a 50% win rate, you're gonna eventually lose several games in a row, even up to 5. Even up to 8!
losers queue is definitely real. A study got leaked from EA i believe where they found player retention was noticeably higher if they didnt give players perfectly 50/50 games. By putting people on winning streaks and losing streaks, people were more likely to continue playing. This is what winners and losers queue is.
There is 0 evidence it's being implemented in league match making. Also most of the rumors come from when riot wanted to run smurf q which was one of the worst things ever, but it has been completely removed.
@@Azzapp "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" XD Riot hasn't released how leagues match making works. heres a good video on it ruclips.net/video/O28UlRfWREU/видео.html
First off, the paper wasn't "leaked." It was published under with the IW3C2 and other research publishers, and saying it is "leaked" implies an attempted coverup. Second, this isn't the first skill-based matchmaking model to exist, with modern SBMM examples including GLICKO2 in CSGO and TrueSkill for Microsoft titles, and they all work similarly to each other. Lastly, the existence of smurfs disproves the concept of 'elo hell' or 'losersq' on practicality grounds since high-skill players win more often than someone that is meant to be in that rank. If you are at the rank you belong in, you will win approximately 50% of the time. There are so many factors that go into your gameplay that determine if you win or lose, and mental is the biggest barrier for most players. Believing you have to 'carry,' that 'elo hell' exists, or 'my champion is just bad' will stop you from climbing more than anything your teammates do in-game. Getting out of that mindset though is extremely hard, and will take a long time of dedication and habit-forming to grow out of that mindset be your best self. If you adopt a growth mindset, you will rank up. Broken By Concept is an amazing podcast for learning to build good SoloQ habits and I can't recommend them enough. www.youtube.com/@BrokenByConcept This is one of Thorin's old videos explaining how 'elo hell' is self-inflicted and not forced upon you. ruclips.net/video/HINT60Wz0xw/видео.html&pp=ygUQeW91IGFyZSBlbG8gaGVsbA%3D%3D
I agree with most of what you said, but the part about winning 50% of your games means it's working isn't correct in this context. If things are well balanced, you'll happen to win about 50% of the time, but if that 50% is bouncing back and forth between stomping the enemy and being stomped by the enemy team and it feels like one team or the other is intentionally given one or two griefer/garbage players that will make the game lopsided, it feels like the matchmaking is fixing an outcome and griefing the players. I think the highly complicated nature of the game also makes performance way more variable than other games, so people will by chance due to the composition of the teams do really well in some games and quite poorly in others, not just because of the champion mixture, but also because of the different skills and strategies used in the game. Depending on what people do and the champions, different games will demand different knowledge and skills to play effectively. You can play 1000 games of League and never have paired up with a specific champion before and then they may expect you to know how their champion works and get tilted when you don't. This type of thing doesn't happen with shooter games. Sometimes they'll be nice and will tell you that you need to click on the lantern and let you see what it does, other times a Kalista will just try to fling you into the enemy and abandon you when you don't use it right even if they didn't even try to explain it first and knew you didn't know about their champion. Then you also have the issue of smurfs, like when some Iron IV is playing unusually well for their rank. Will they move up in rank fast if they keep trying to win as a smurf, yes, but if they're intentionally losing games or if people just persistently engage in smurfing, that adds up to a lot of ruined games and sometimes you get unlucky enough to get several of them in a short time span. Also they pair together people that may be two tiers apart at times, which with how the game works, tends to make for a less pleasant experience as it makes it much easier for one person to snowball the game and have a disproportionate impact on the game. When you have some fed Irelia one-shotting the entire enemy team, the game is generally pretty over and not fun and skill expression from anyone else tends to stop mattering. Most team multiplayer games don't have this huge power skewing nature. In a shooter game, if the rest of your team dies and it's 5+ people against 1 and you're better than all of them, you can still win potentially, but League generally doesn't work like that.
The one-sided aspect is more a display of the state of the game : snowbally and lack of counter play for certain champs. Not really a display of skewed matchmaking. You even mention it after. The others aspects you mention are highly mitigated by the fact that it can happen to your team or the enemy team too. In fact an afk ( or "inter", or "boosted", or 'lacking specific knowledge' or w/e ) is more likely happening to the enemy team (5/9) than you as long as you don't "afk/int" yourself. The "positive player" (smurf) are more likely to happen to the enemy team, but the matchmaking is quick to respond to that tbh.
1rd About that pattern recognition: I've heard that there's a Corona breakout every time many people report scented candles from Yankee Candle Company losing their smell. It's directly correlated and somehow candles losing their smell causes Corona outbreaks.
There ACTUALLY is a toxic Q tho.When you are chat banned, your teammates are all also chatbanned, or are about to, or just got out of it and are in a test period to see if they will get chat banned again or not. That can snowball a toxic person a lot, since it only gets worse.
Logically speaking, every game has 10 in which 5 win and 5 lose always. The likely hood that you get all the same players from your last game and lose again is nearly 0, which is due to multiple factors such as different champions, players stop playing, players get different roles, etc. The reality is you can't win every game in a 5v5 game, you just have to perform consistently and you will win more than 50% (not significantly over but enough to rank up). People who say it exists are the ones who expect every game to be a victory mostly and/or are projecting their poor performance on their teammates simply being slighty underperforming or not even carrying compared to enemy team. There is just no such thing as losers queue, you wr cannot be any higher or lower significantly than 50% (over 100 games) because you are not the center of the world or the main character. Now, sometimes you get teammates that troll (lock their non primary champ with negative wr into otp positive wr and lose) but honestly you can't control what the 4 strangers you get matched with choose or do in your game. I may joke about losers queue, but it is just foolish and not logical to believe it exists.
The argument of tilting falls completely apart when the losing streak is going on because you can see teammates consistently feed, not the player in question.
I think of it like this: Would it be difficult to implement? Not really. Can riot profit from it? Absolutely - achieving 50% winrate can be done through win streaks and loss streaks just as well as win one lose one, but I think it is plausible to conjecture that streaks, by playing into the emotional aspect, will increase retention and time spent in the client, which, when paired with the strong emotional fluctuations will lead to player attachment and addiction = sales. Finally, do I trust riot to be ethical enough not to exploit this relationship? Absofuckinlutely not. Just look at the way riot games has treated women and the fact that they are a corporation where profit is everything. I think, therefore, that loser's and winner's queue is plausible and until the day riot makes mmr and rank one and the same, or at least makes mmr visible like the elo system in starcraft and other esports, we cannot dismiss it out of hand. That is not say we should not be sceptical, it is a bold assertion and a serious indictment on the ethical practices of riot games.
Me... Just playing causally and don't bother to climb... I'm fine where my rank is lmao it's bothersome to reach the top... I play for fun My winrate is above 60% Plus when I know I am in losers queue I just change game mode and let the losers queue happen there so my rank wouldn't be affected
This guy never played a game of League I guess. If he cannot see how hard it is when every game you get trolls and afks and you cannot do anything about it except ff. No matter how good you play if enemy have 0 deaths and a lot of kills you will not win. And yes it happens every game after a certain milestone.
Blaming someone on "tilt" is straight up gaslighting. That argument absolutely falls apart when you're on a losing streak and it's the team that feeding, not the player in question
i mean to be fair Tyler1 is responsible for about 75% of this communities toxic shit. He literally invented "JG/mid/top... diff". He literally complains about things in the game 24/7 and types things like losers Q and he doesn't realize he is literally subconsciously teaching people how to act. If you watch him enough you are going to pick up on his language and mannerisms. Its like getting into a relationship. After a while you start repeating whwatever your spouse does even like little phrases and shit like that. Honestly he is A HUGE reason why league is so toxic IMO. Even though he doesn't INT its just the typing and people giving up when game is completely winnable.
ruclips.net/video/N3680bna5XM/видео.html Funny that due to your accent you prononce playing "well" like "Vel", maybe that is why you're the #1 Vel, you play Vel Vel... lol
People like you are a big problem though, I highly doubt you ever experienced having 2-3 people going 2-13 in 7 out of 10 games freuquently, while you maximize your stats and performance and yes, I am not a delusional bronze player claiming to be dia and no matter what people say, you will maintain your cope and delusions, because again, never happened to you, so it cant be real right
It's not that great. He talks about astrology, but talks about tilting and psychology, which isn't proof of anything because psychology plays a part in people who have a confirmation bias that there isn't a losers queue. He also uses the example of someone supposing that they always lose with a champ and other team wins with the same champ. It's not that happening with one champ that makes it losers queue, it's the fact that it happens with so many champs over and over, with usually the same champ. He also doesn't bring up how the algorithm can put a jungler in that ignores your lane. I counted the times my jungler ganks my lane and it's about on in 20 games they might actually come to my lane. Meanwhile I counted the times an enemy jungler comes to my lane and gets a kill and the rate is twice as much if not more. Also, Azzapp says that matchmaking is "supposed" to match you like this because he claims it will eventually put you on a team that wins. This is actually a talking point that supports the idea that matchmaking is rigged. But it is not proof of fairness because losing a lot is not "made up for" with an occasional win as a scrap.
i fairly thinks that looser Q existe as well as winner Q but they’re not an excuse to not be abel to climb as they are overall equal. it’s juste that somme how you play one day all ur game are hard as fck and the day after you only have free wins. More over i really think debates on if it exist or not is useless as no one can realy know unless we crake the codes of riots algorithms
@@strahinjaculibrk1710 yeah but it's a statistical fallacy to say it's only one in 32 people if you don't take in to context that there are losing streaks that go longer than 5 games or if you acknowledge that one win is not going to reset MMR if after one win there is another losing streak
@@joshuacox5817 Yeah u right, ideally would be 1/32% but nothing is ideal, there is lot of factors: if u losing games then u would drop from 50% winrate to lower, and like u said after losing streak u would got another one it is complex to describe. So for us mortals we would say ~1/32% heh.
I love Azzapp hes just the personification of velkoz. Too smart for these other vertebrates in the rift.
Lmao
Thank you for speaking out on this! It is a nice change of pace.
This only mirrors a bigger problem, not just in the League of Legends community.
People are so distracted these days to the point where they become gullible to believe whatever's being shoved in their face, as long as it sounds pleasing to their ego. Therefore, they don't even bother standing up against lies when they feel so secure in their own delusion. The majority are just looking to take the easiest way out to avoid the problems in their way, some even resorting to sacrifice their own dignity or worse to achieve that.
Sadly, such mentality is what media promotes, everybody wanting to have it easy and comfortable.
Humility ,sacrifice, patience, gratitude and so on... such traits are reaching scarcity.
For the past years, I personally think we've been going down the hill at an alarming rate. Feels like the world's been turning upside down and it seems as if we've almost reached a point of no return.
Loser's queue is real. My friend and I will be playing double up tft, get to gold, and then start losing every game...
nisam te gledao jedno 3 godine, sada sam se setio tebe i pocinjem opet aktivno da te pratim i drago mi je sto si i dalje tu, ily❤
Now i know the truth. Azzapp is a Riot games plant, put here to make everyone believe losers queue isn't real.
Just the fact that rank is public but MMR is"hidden" is all you really need to know. Remember that Azzapp is one of the best if not the best velkoz player in the world and he has gotten hard stuck gold in NA before.
Challenger players don't see it because they have actual teams to back them up and win together. You don't see that in low ELO.
Riot can easily debunk it by revealing how they code their matchmaking, but they will never do it
Every single tencent game has some form of engagement based matchmaking. League is the only one it isn't confirmed in.
To think that there is absolute no matchmaking manipulation to optimize for engagement(their most important metric) would be silly.
There's no downside and only upside to say "this person is more likely to play 3-4 more games if they lose this game. Let's enforce a loss for them this game."
Brother you are 100% right, this RUclipsr and others make income from the game. IF their viewers know the game is rigged, they get less views.
Good video mate, 10head
I feel like loser's q is a mindset. It's not the game or the matchmaking, it's how you personally react to it. Once you start negatively reacting to something, it's hard to swing back the other way.
Also those 1/2^x odds only apply if you only play exactly x games. If you play 100 games with roughly a 50% win rate, you're gonna eventually lose several games in a row, even up to 5. Even up to 8!
Ah yes the mindset of people trolling your games every game once you hit a rank.
losers queue is definitely real. A study got leaked from EA i believe where they found player retention was noticeably higher if they didnt give players perfectly 50/50 games. By putting people on winning streaks and losing streaks, people were more likely to continue playing. This is what winners and losers queue is.
There is 0 evidence it's being implemented in league match making. Also most of the rumors come from when riot wanted to run smurf q which was one of the worst things ever, but it has been completely removed.
@@Azzapp "the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" XD
Riot hasn't released how leagues match making works.
heres a good video on it ruclips.net/video/O28UlRfWREU/видео.html
First off, the paper wasn't "leaked." It was published under with the IW3C2 and other research publishers, and saying it is "leaked" implies an attempted coverup.
Second, this isn't the first skill-based matchmaking model to exist, with modern SBMM examples including GLICKO2 in CSGO and TrueSkill for Microsoft titles, and they all work similarly to each other.
Lastly, the existence of smurfs disproves the concept of 'elo hell' or 'losersq' on practicality grounds since high-skill players win more often than someone that is meant to be in that rank. If you are at the rank you belong in, you will win approximately 50% of the time.
There are so many factors that go into your gameplay that determine if you win or lose, and mental is the biggest barrier for most players. Believing you have to 'carry,' that 'elo hell' exists, or 'my champion is just bad' will stop you from climbing more than anything your teammates do in-game. Getting out of that mindset though is extremely hard, and will take a long time of dedication and habit-forming to grow out of that mindset be your best self.
If you adopt a growth mindset, you will rank up.
Broken By Concept is an amazing podcast for learning to build good SoloQ habits and I can't recommend them enough.
www.youtube.com/@BrokenByConcept
This is one of Thorin's old videos explaining how 'elo hell' is self-inflicted and not forced upon you.
ruclips.net/video/HINT60Wz0xw/видео.html&pp=ygUQeW91IGFyZSBlbG8gaGVsbA%3D%3D
@@MrBeef-sh3lc youre putting a lot of words in my mouth there dude
@@Azzapp you can literally look at winrates and losing streaks which are statistically unlikely
I agree with most of what you said, but the part about winning 50% of your games means it's working isn't correct in this context. If things are well balanced, you'll happen to win about 50% of the time, but if that 50% is bouncing back and forth between stomping the enemy and being stomped by the enemy team and it feels like one team or the other is intentionally given one or two griefer/garbage players that will make the game lopsided, it feels like the matchmaking is fixing an outcome and griefing the players. I think the highly complicated nature of the game also makes performance way more variable than other games, so people will by chance due to the composition of the teams do really well in some games and quite poorly in others, not just because of the champion mixture, but also because of the different skills and strategies used in the game. Depending on what people do and the champions, different games will demand different knowledge and skills to play effectively.
You can play 1000 games of League and never have paired up with a specific champion before and then they may expect you to know how their champion works and get tilted when you don't. This type of thing doesn't happen with shooter games. Sometimes they'll be nice and will tell you that you need to click on the lantern and let you see what it does, other times a Kalista will just try to fling you into the enemy and abandon you when you don't use it right even if they didn't even try to explain it first and knew you didn't know about their champion.
Then you also have the issue of smurfs, like when some Iron IV is playing unusually well for their rank. Will they move up in rank fast if they keep trying to win as a smurf, yes, but if they're intentionally losing games or if people just persistently engage in smurfing, that adds up to a lot of ruined games and sometimes you get unlucky enough to get several of them in a short time span. Also they pair together people that may be two tiers apart at times, which with how the game works, tends to make for a less pleasant experience as it makes it much easier for one person to snowball the game and have a disproportionate impact on the game. When you have some fed Irelia one-shotting the entire enemy team, the game is generally pretty over and not fun and skill expression from anyone else tends to stop mattering. Most team multiplayer games don't have this huge power skewing nature. In a shooter game, if the rest of your team dies and it's 5+ people against 1 and you're better than all of them, you can still win potentially, but League generally doesn't work like that.
The one-sided aspect is more a display of the state of the game : snowbally and lack of counter play for certain champs. Not really a display of skewed matchmaking. You even mention it after.
The others aspects you mention are highly mitigated by the fact that it can happen to your team or the enemy team too. In fact an afk ( or "inter", or "boosted", or 'lacking specific knowledge' or w/e ) is more likely happening to the enemy team (5/9) than you as long as you don't "afk/int" yourself. The "positive player" (smurf) are more likely to happen to the enemy team, but the matchmaking is quick to respond to that tbh.
1rd
About that pattern recognition: I've heard that there's a Corona breakout every time many people report scented candles from Yankee Candle Company losing their smell.
It's directly correlated and somehow candles losing their smell causes Corona outbreaks.
There ACTUALLY is a toxic Q tho.When you are chat banned, your teammates are all also chatbanned, or are about to, or just got out of it and are in a test period to see if they will get chat banned again or not. That can snowball a toxic person a lot, since it only gets worse.
"The Hot Hand Fallacy" is what you were looking for at 6:50. The assumption that if you have won 5+ games that you will definitely win the next.
Logically speaking, every game has 10 in which 5 win and 5 lose always. The likely hood that you get all the same players from your last game and lose again is nearly 0, which is due to multiple factors such as different champions, players stop playing, players get different roles, etc. The reality is you can't win every game in a 5v5 game, you just have to perform consistently and you will win more than 50% (not significantly over but enough to rank up). People who say it exists are the ones who expect every game to be a victory mostly and/or are projecting their poor performance on their teammates simply being slighty underperforming or not even carrying compared to enemy team.
There is just no such thing as losers queue, you wr cannot be any higher or lower significantly than 50% (over 100 games) because you are not the center of the world or the main character. Now, sometimes you get teammates that troll (lock their non primary champ with negative wr into otp positive wr and lose) but honestly you can't control what the 4 strangers you get matched with choose or do in your game.
I may joke about losers queue, but it is just foolish and not logical to believe it exists.
The argument of tilting falls completely apart when the losing streak is going on because you can see teammates consistently feed, not the player in question.
LoserQ can't hurt you, loserQ isn't real.
I think of it like this: Would it be difficult to implement? Not really. Can riot profit from it? Absolutely - achieving 50% winrate can be done through win streaks and loss streaks just as well as win one lose one, but I think it is plausible to conjecture that streaks, by playing into the emotional aspect, will increase retention and time spent in the client, which, when paired with the strong emotional fluctuations will lead to player attachment and addiction = sales. Finally, do I trust riot to be ethical enough not to exploit this relationship? Absofuckinlutely not. Just look at the way riot games has treated women and the fact that they are a corporation where profit is everything.
I think, therefore, that loser's and winner's queue is plausible and until the day riot makes mmr and rank one and the same, or at least makes mmr visible like the elo system in starcraft and other esports, we cannot dismiss it out of hand. That is not say we should not be sceptical, it is a bold assertion and a serious indictment on the ethical practices of riot games.
Me... Just playing causally and don't bother to climb... I'm fine where my rank is lmao it's bothersome to reach the top... I play for fun
My winrate is above 60%
Plus when I know I am in losers queue I just change game mode and let the losers queue happen there so my rank wouldn't be affected
This guy never played a game of League I guess. If he cannot see how hard it is when every game you get trolls and afks and you cannot do anything about it except ff. No matter how good you play if enemy have 0 deaths and a lot of kills you will not win. And yes it happens every game after a certain milestone.
Studies show that people think a game is fair, so long as they keep winning. Check your bias.
Losers q is a product of playerbase addiction and lack of will to stop rage queing and come grind again when their mental power is rejuiced
False. Look up EOMM matchmaking.
Blaming someone on "tilt" is straight up gaslighting. That argument absolutely falls apart when you're on a losing streak and it's the team that feeding, not the player in question
@@joshuacox5817 then carry them
@@user-sz9vt4sd7y not an argument. You shouldn't have to play like you're two ranks above what you are just to maintain the rank you're in.
@@joshuacox5817 if you are struggling to maintain rank you are in you probably do not deserve to maintain it in a first place
i mean to be fair Tyler1 is responsible for about 75% of this communities toxic shit. He literally invented "JG/mid/top... diff". He literally complains about things in the game 24/7 and types things like losers Q and he doesn't realize he is literally subconsciously teaching people how to act. If you watch him enough you are going to pick up on his language and mannerisms. Its like getting into a relationship. After a while you start repeating whwatever your spouse does even like little phrases and shit like that. Honestly he is A HUGE reason why league is so toxic IMO. Even though he doesn't INT its just the typing and people giving up when game is completely winnable.
elo hell, losers queue, people will always come up with new stuff
Look up EOMM matchmaking, then look up "rise of the bots" by ivan ramler and choong-soo Lee
ruclips.net/video/N3680bna5XM/видео.html
Funny that due to your accent you prononce playing "well" like "Vel", maybe that is why you're the #1 Vel, you play Vel Vel... lol
People like you are a big problem though, I highly doubt you ever experienced having 2-3 people going 2-13 in 7 out of 10 games freuquently, while you maximize your stats and performance and yes, I am not a delusional bronze player claiming to be dia and no matter what people say, you will maintain your cope and delusions, because again, never happened to you, so it cant be real right
Word!
I disagree although I didn't watch the video!
It's not that great. He talks about astrology, but talks about tilting and psychology, which isn't proof of anything because psychology plays a part in people who have a confirmation bias that there isn't a losers queue.
He also uses the example of someone supposing that they always lose with a champ and other team wins with the same champ. It's not that happening with one champ that makes it losers queue, it's the fact that it happens with so many champs over and over, with usually the same champ. He also doesn't bring up how the algorithm can put a jungler in that ignores your lane. I counted the times my jungler ganks my lane and it's about on in 20 games they might actually come to my lane. Meanwhile I counted the times an enemy jungler comes to my lane and gets a kill and the rate is twice as much if not more.
Also, Azzapp says that matchmaking is "supposed" to match you like this because he claims it will eventually put you on a team that wins. This is actually a talking point that supports the idea that matchmaking is rigged. But it is not proof of fairness because losing a lot is not "made up for" with an occasional win as a scrap.
i fairly thinks that looser Q existe as well as winner Q but they’re not an excuse to not be abel to climb as they are overall equal. it’s juste that somme how you play one day all ur game are hard as fck and the day after you only have free wins. More over i really think debates on if it exist or not is useless as no one can realy know unless we crake the codes of riots algorithms
They are not equal.
6:45, You right, but just be more specific there is chances 1/32% e.i. 1 people from 32 people with 50% winrate will lose 5 times in a row.
Riot is definitely not following statistical likelihoods if that is the case.
@@joshuacox5817 I don't know but this was just a mathematically likelihood of that particular event
@@strahinjaculibrk1710 yeah but it's a statistical fallacy to say it's only one in 32 people if you don't take in to context that there are losing streaks that go longer than 5 games or if you acknowledge that one win is not going to reset MMR if after one win there is another losing streak
@@joshuacox5817 Yeah u right, ideally would be 1/32% but nothing is ideal, there is lot of factors: if u losing games then u would drop from 50% winrate to lower, and like u said after losing streak u would got another one it is complex to describe. So for us mortals we would say ~1/32% heh.
@@strahinjaculibrk1710 and then take in to account that MMR is counting norms games too
like