I feel it should be ED's responsibility to ensure future compatibility with third party modules. If ED makes a profit off of every third party aircraft and scenery that's sold, they can't continue to sell products that may lose the ability to function properly (or at all) in the future without angering a lot of customers. This would be a downward spiral that would inevitably lead to the introduction of new major competitors to DCS; some of which may already be in development.
Which would require them to have the source code for that module. Apparently that's one of the points of contention. After the Hawk incident ED required all 3rd party devs to sign a new contract stating that the source code for each of their modules would be put into escrow so that if the dev folded or something else happened, ED would have what they needed to keep it up to date. Allegedly, RB hasn't given ED any code for any of their modules. That's my understanding. Who knows what's really going on? Sadly, despite how many people are demanding answers, if they're working on a lawsuit, we aren't going to ever hear much.
Unnecessary, clickbait title. None of these aircraft are dead yet, they're stuck in an ugly situation with an unknown timeline on a yet to be determined solution. Jumping the gun and calling them all "dead" at this point is a bad take.
@@cmdrbigity6914 I already own all of them. That being said I think they should remove them from the store while they sort this out. Even then, it wouldn't mean they were "dead", they'd be (hopefully)temporarily unavailable. This is a progressing situation and we don't yet know how it will end, a content creator with a large following calling them "dead" is both lazy and irresponsible.
As someone who also got burned by the VEAO Hawk, the debacle with Razbam has meant I will seriously consider third party add ons for DCS. There needs to be a cast iron guarantee at point of purchase that support will be continued and if the original developer is unable or unwilling to facilitate that then ED need to pick up the slack to keep their platform alive and customer confidence.
Regardless of who is at fault, communication to it's customers is key. Both parties need to issue a statement regarding the modules development/continued support or refund strategies for both steam and standalone users. Continued silence and speculation is doing both parties a great deal of harm.
It's likely this is all tied up in legal review and one or both parties can't say much until their lawyers address it officially. That's also going to hold up any action from both parties that could affect things (pulling a product, removing it from the store until it's sorted, etc). I know at my work (not game/software development, granted) when legal issues crop up, we aren't allowed to publicly say anything until legal has weighed in on the matter, and most times, provided us a very specific cookie-cutter response we are allowed to use. And those things don't happen quickly.
You know, I wonder if DCS will become like minecraft java, where when you launch the game you select from a drop down box from every release version out there, if not by ED then by the community. This would be sad because the modules become less interconnected, but at the same time at least we CAN play them.
I've barely flown mine, maybe 4-5 times in addition to the tutorials. It was on my list, but assuming it was getting regular updates I was Ok with learning other, more complete, aircraft first. I suppose that's good in a way, I haven't wasted as much time learning it. Silver lining? Not so much, really. I can't say the same for the Mirage and Harrier. The Mirage was probably my favourite 4th gen plane as it was the first one I got my head around due to its somewhat simplified systems (compared to the Bug, the Eagle and the Viper). I am gutted that the Mirage is already breaking, I was intending to fly all my campaigns, both paid and the ones I've downloaded, one more time. But unless they are A2G only, and I can't think of any that are, it's pointless. And I'd just managed to deal with a problem with the Harrier I'd had since I bought it (it turns out I needed to zero all the controls and reload) and was just starting to have real fun with it.
This all seems a tad... dramatic. Razbam modules can be considered dead if ED discontinues support of them, but right now we don't even know if that's going to happen. Maybe the modules will die, maybe ED gets the source code from Razbam as a part of a legal resolution of their beef with each other and ED continues development, maybe Razbam and ED find a more amicable solution to their dispute and Razbam continues development... nobody knows what will happen.
@@cmdrbigity6914 ... right, hence the "legal resolution" bit. Razbam gets paid out for their work in exchange for the source code being handed to ED, or something along those lines - again, we don't know what will happen. ED doesn't have the source code right now, that can change, it may not.
@@CrazedAndroid I'd rather RB goes back to work after being paid vs it being ...adjusted to the level of other modules (talking about HRM, AG radar, AA radar, TFR). Those systems are above and beyond in the mudhen.
@@theonefrancis696 Razbam can be out, it doesn't mean the source code will always be lost in that case. Again, Razbam could end up handing the source code over to ED, or they can go scorched earth and delete every copy of the source code they have. We don't know what will happen yet.
It's much worse than you think. Because of the drama, people have gotten it into their heads that the issue facing DCS is a conflict between ED and Razbam but this is just a symptom of a contradiction at the heart of DCS's business model: ED develops DCS, they are incentivized to keep adding features and improvements to make the sim more marketable, which means that modules must receive continuous updates too, or become riddled with bugs and unplayable. At some point each and every module ever developed will reach its market cap when most potential customers already own it, at which point the module-developers are incentivized to move on to develop new modules so they can keep turning a profit. They are not incentivized to keep updating old modules that are no longer profitable since this does nothing but rack up cost. This is why every piece of commercial software ever released has a lifetime in which it is supported but is eventually dropped. This isn't a problem that can be solved, it's a contradiction inherent to the business model. No module is excepted. The way to overcome the contradiction is to either centralize development under one company so that the makers of the sim are incentivized to also update the modules, or to go open source. Falcon BMS has been updated for over 20 years and WILL outlast DCS. Not becuase it's sexier or more marketable but because it's open source and its model doesn't contradict itself!
@@colinkelly990 not the only option, but seems like a good contender, however or something like Microsoft Flight Sim where you buy the base game and modules aside seems like a better option considering how shit core DCS is
@@nero995 MSFS and DCS are very similar in terms of business model. Asobo builds the engine, and also a few modules. They maintain the core sim, as well as their modules. just as ED does. There are also 3rd party module makers who can submit their work for approval and sell it on the MSFS marketplace. There are two significant differences in my mind: the market cap for GA and airline sims is seemingly much higher than combat flight sims. DCS has also only recently hit around 200 employees. Asobo has been that size for years now. ED is still a small business when it comes to game development. Subscription works well for companies like Iracing, but SaaS creates a feeling of entitlement for new content and features. People will not pay a monthly fee to only receive bug fixes, and performance updates. Consumers will say they want stabilization updates and perf updates in one breath, and with the next they will complain that they haven't received enough new content.
Hey guys, I really haven't wanted to make this video, but a bunch of you guys wanted me to weigh in, and am definitely worried about the future of DCS as a result of the death of the F-15E and other Razbam modules.
But the M2000c is currently the only Razbam module that is already unplayable, due to the stupid cold start bug. 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️ It’s only a matter of time that all the RB modules goes the same way.
@@cowboy10uk Are you talking about the G-limiter issue? That was fixed in the latest patch this week (no patch notes were submitted for it so it doesn't show in the change log but users confirmed on the DCS forums that it IS fixed).
@@cowboy10uk It was fixed. The first thing I checked because I had a feeling it was a simple fix and ED would "forget" to add it to the patch notes. lol
If the harrier dies that'll basically be it for me with DCS. I don't have a huge amount of time and its' the only jet I can keep currency in and be able to just pick up and fly well. Not to mention it's my favourite jet in future in general. While I have the Strike Eagle I haven't actually flown in it and while the cost is a pain, it isn't the end of the world. I do think continuing to sell it is a very bad play. Gotta admit I'm on the fence about buying any more third party modules now. Which includes the Kiowa which I've been looking forwards to for years.
As many, if this is really the end of the F-15E it's a really hard blow. The only reason I got back into flight sims was because of how fantastic the F-15's looked, and the only reason I stayed was because of the promise of the F-15E. It allowed users to fully enjoy DCS AA and AG. Spud, your content has been AMAZING over my 2 year journey, thank you. With all the rhetoric going on this about Razbam and ED, this one was one of the hardest to watch, you captured the sentiment well.
The very same day I watch a video about the latest F-15EX delivered to the Oregon ANG, and a video about the possible discontinuation of the RB F-15E in DCS! History has its twists for sure!
Maybe because RB hasn't yet requested a recall of their product. Therefore, from my point of view, it looks like neither side wants to end the cooperation and instead is trying to find a joint solution.
One thing is certain: We will be getting more game breaking bugs in Razbams Modules in the future. If this dispute goes on for another few months my feeling is that some talented modders and hackers will take it upon themselves to create workarounds and fixes for the most serious issues. I don't think Razbam attempting to get ED to blink by using the community as leverage and refusing to update their modules will have the same impact over the long-term as it is having over this last 2 months. The community and platform will adapt in some unexpected and surprising ways and the show will go on.
Refusing? They continued to work for 8 months without a dime from ED from their sold modules. I wouldn't say they are 'refusing to update'. They are owned money (at least that is their stance).
One workaround solution is to have a second copy of DCS installed with the Razbam modules and don't update it; at least you can play it without it being broken.
@@cmdrbigity6914 Except we don't know the reasoning, or if that's true, because it's all just one side that keeps talking while the other is staying quiet, likely for legal reasons. Could be that they didn't get paid recently because they haven't fulfilled their contractual obligation to provide ED with their source code to their modules so that ED can have a backup in case Razbam suddenly decides to leave DCS. It could be that Razbam aren't happy and want to take their modules to MSFS or something else, and there's some legal dispute there. Either way, everyone speculating nonstop just helps to spread more rumors, that as far as I can tell, are based on here say and random internet comments being parroted. I will say, I find it hard to believe that ED randomly decided to punish one specific developer for no real reason, while continuing to work with their other developers without issue. It just seems odd to me that they would suddenly decide to not pay one developer, who has been working with DCS as one of the first developers around.
TBT... I think people need to understand that at the end of the day, the reason none of the other third-party devs are saying anything, is that because, unlike Razbam, while they have to wait for money to come in, Razbam has basically called dibs on multiple aircraft and are trying to develop them all at the same time, rather than focusing on one, getting it out, and moving onto the next. The only other dev with multiple aircraft in development right now, is Heatblur, and even then, they've set up in a way that they can handle the wait. From what I can gather of the situation, all of this stems from an issue with RB getting paid what they want, vs what they're contractually owed per module. While it is understandable to want more money, it should be understood that for best results, it is best to wait for contract renegotiation time, and handle things quietly, rather than explode all over Social Media and throwing accusations around. We may never know all the finer details. But I think we can all agree that in the end... Those of us with these modules will get to keep them. After all, ED has the source code, and can fix issues that crop up. But until either Razbam chills out, or another team takes over the development, the modules will remain in their current state. Personally, I'm fine with this. If the modules still function, and bugs are fixed by ED as they come up, that's fine. I would only call a module 'dead', if a game breaking bug comes up, and multiple patches go by without a fix.
thing with Heatblur is: they can do what RB wants to do Heatblur is a Massive team and additionally they develope some modules with other teams (for Example the EF-2000 with TruGrit) Sure they are in a Sticky situation and i hate to be informed that ED and RB are not in their Best moods rn... i hope they can find a way to solve this!
ED never paid them for the f15E and claims they breached contract. Razbam after almost a year comes out publicly about it and now the community is in an uproar. Also ED said they would have third party sources codes if this were to happen and it turns out that they lied and that aren’t legally allowed to do such a thing.
How am I supposed to take any of this seriously, when without any evidence at all, the outcome of the conflict between ED and Razbam is already being presented as certain? It seems to me that the taking down of tutorial videos is aimed at penalizing Razbam, when in reality, it is only penalizing those who have already purchased the module. Putting up addendums and caveats on videos and their descriptions etc., that the Eagle _might_ fall out of support completely, that Razbam--or ED--might end their partnership, that experience shows that for the time being no updates to the Eagle may be expected, that is all truthful, but "The F15-E Is Dead", I can only view as an attempt to rile up panic. I expected more from this channel.
Misleading title and video. The F-15E and other razbam modules aren't 'dead'. Nobody really knows whats going to happen outside of Razbam and ED themselves
Everyone should just take a step back and take a deep breath. They should be able to come to a mutual agreement in the near future. Just Relax and DCS on…
@@theonefrancis696 yea... it just felt like dcs was somehow different, that we were so small and so passionate that if something like this happens we can forget our differences and work together... guess not
@@SyrupDipper It's not only that. They are literally selling unmaintained modules to scrape the bottom of the barrel, while lawsuits work on a dispute. It's a legal scam, plain and simple. This is probably just the tip of the iceberg of the absolute mental stuff happening behind the curtain.
@@RW-zn8vy some pilots dual qualify (for example 767/757 are the same qualifications because the avionics/cockpit/systems are almost completely identical)
Updated DCS to the latest stable version yesterday, now every time I start DCS I get a popup message stating the F15E module is no longer authorized. It still shows as installed, but no longer is an available aircraft. Anyone else had their F15E disabled?
@@tomgaro1159 Yeah no shit that there hasn't been an update, that's the entire point. RAZBAM has been witheld payment, has continued making updates, but won't push them to ED without getting paid. No one knows who is legally in the wrong here, and it's perfectly sensible for RAZBAM to receive payment for something that they had been working on for the better part of a decade. Depending on how badly they breached their contract will determine the terms from here, but we truly have no idea what to expect.
I wouldnt say the f15e is dead. Razbam said they want to continue to develop after everything is settled down. Just because they dont get updates for a short while they arent dead. Ps: i also dont understand why you delete the f15e tutorials just because of a conflict between razbam and ed that might be sorted out in 2 weeks.
you didn't even say anything about the argument. ED is withholding all payments from razbam, and has been for months, because razbam was working on a Tucano project for the ecuadorian airforce but was designing the military only simulator version at no cost with the approval of ecuador to give htem access to the necessary information to very accurately model the aircraft and to use it for an eventual DCS release module. ED wanted money for this, and simply stopped paying razbam at all, claiming they were taking what they felt they were owed for the "development" of a module on their platform. This being a military contract, they arbitrarily set an enormous sum and simply ate *all* of razbams F15E revenue without paying them an ounce. razbam continued to work for months on the F15E trying to resolve this until they literally ran out of capital due to lack of income. they can't ask their developers to work for no pay, and ED is refusing to accept razbam's claim that they will of course be entitled to their normal share of any sales of the eventual DCS world super tucano, presumably because they know they can ask for huge dollars from a government contract, but since the government contract isn't with ED, it's with Razbam who owns the source code and the information, they're essentially holding them hostage in an attempt to legally aquire said source code and or be "bought out". The side on ED seems to consist of "we could have made a bunch of money off this why are you not charging the ecuadorian government a huge sum" and then withholding cash in an attempt to get razbam to either give them the source code or pay them for the missed revenue, which they can't do because razbam took all their income. It seems like the worst you can accuse razbam here of is unprofessionalism, public outbursts on the part of the CEO, and being too charitable with the ecuadorian government in regards to designing a real training simulator for them at no cost other than the classified performance materials. Razbam didn't steal anything from ED or cost ED anything or put out sub par modules. ED wanted that sweet government contract money that doesn't exist. Razbam is getting obliterated because of it, and frankly as a computer scientist if i worked for a third party company and suddenly had my paychecks stop and my being told that there's literally no money to pay me and we should seek alternative work until ED gives us the revenue from the strike eagle, you best believe i wouldn't even consider simply giving away the rights to code that i worked on to the company that to my view is holding me hostage over something they'd been informed about and that hadn't been an issue until a few months ago when the tucano contract had been worked on for over 2 years with no problem for ecuador prior. Razbam worked for 3 months with no pay hoping they could settle on some agreement out of court with ED to keep updating the strike eagle. They only stopped updating when they literally ran out of cash reserves and couldn't pay their employees because there *was* no income of any kind. Razbam made the F15E, an excellent module which sold like absolute insanity, and did not receive even a dollar for it because ED decided they wanted to be paid for a full on military contract on a modern turbo prop light attack aircraft for Ecuador to train their pilots with. we don't know what's going on because they haven't updated us since saying that both parties are working to try and find a solution and hope that they can end up with a positive resolution to it with this text on april 7 [7:21 AM]razbam_prowler: @here Dear customers and community RAZBAM Simulations is actively working with EAGLE DYNAMICS to reach an agreement to resolve our internal dispute and we don't want the discussion that our public declaration has generated to escalate any further. We want to assure you that it has never been nor will it be our intention to abandon our products. We look forward to a prompt and satisfactory resolution, turn the page, and move forward. Best regards Ron Zambrano CEO RAZBAM Simulations, LLC (edited)
The reason why Scambam hasn't been paid is because the FAILED TO MEET CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATIONS, ergo they didn't get paid because they haven't met the Standards that was placed in their contract to prevent them from pulling another HAWK's; hence why they are known as Scambam!
@@JozMkII Most likely Metal2Mesh from one of his rants. There's probably some truth there, but it's obviously biased and not official. We'll see eventually I guess
Well said. I have a bunch of modules and this dispute is making me reconsider my commitment to DCS as a whole. ED NEEDS to resolve this issue once and for all.
Go cry to Scambam, as this is par for the Course from them! They failed to meet Contractual obligations to get paid, and then try to play the Victim when they get caught; just like they did with that Turd that was the HAWK's DLC.
Hey Spud, just want to say sorry for all the people giving you a hard time for your title, yes the module is still in the game but it is not receiving updates and is up in the air wether it will stay in the game, I believe it is valid to say it is a dead module because right now there most definitely is no life in it. Thank you for all you do, keep up the great vids ❤️
This shit is why i transitioned to Falcon BMS.... BMS is miles ahead in almost everything but graphics and the amount of flyable planes. But both of these caveats are set to change since in the 4.38 update they will completely overhaul the terrain engine and graphics. Also they figured out how to make custom airframes and there's already a full fidelity F-15C alongside the F-16. And the best part is that all of it is practically free.
They can also develop it for years/decades without expecting profit, which is in a way a working development model. There is little chance that a commercial product can actually match a product like that in depth and simulation accuracy while still remaining economically viable. The modules would need to cost a few thousand dollars per user to be viable if they were developed as an actual simulation closer to something like BMS. Sales are very low in simulation and costs are very high. I honestly don't see how DCS has a future with how they keep making half-baked simulation models which are simultaneously high-cost but also not very fulfilling, mostly being just pretty cockpits and a few cool simulations of singular systems. I've been saying this for over half a decade, being a DCS player for over a decade.
Good luck doing combined operations with air and ground working together in a 120+ clients server with BMS. I'm not hating on BMS, i love it but you can't say it is ahead of DCS in any aspect, IMO.
@@Kid574 Is there a single case of a 120+ player server running with acceptable performance? I also shudder to think of how many thousands of man-hours it takes to set up a mission for that. One of the points of BMS is also that you don't need hundreds of players for a somewhat realistic battlespace, because the AI is capable of doing it. Most units will be capable of organizing games in the low dozens at most, which will work far better in BMS. That's just stuff like AI or mission planning, though. Not even touching the better simulation of almost all functions.
@@ArchOfficial Check Grim Reapers videos about Joint Thunder operation. That should give you an idea, though those were early missions where stuff were still being tuned ;)
Well done Spud and other creators. Using your support platform of modules for good. Temporarily removing training videos will show the 2 parties that if nothing is moved forward then support for the platform and modules involved will not continue. Kudos to you.
The person who launched the matter was the Enigma channel, which is continually complaining about ED; This channel did not add any information, just continuing the gossip. So far, no Razbam module has died, only the reputation of those who gossip.
The M2000 and F15E are some of my favorite modules. The M2000 was my go to sortie runner. It's said to see this happening. I hope this does get resolved soon :(
I disagree with content creators deleting their videos because a product that was supported at one time is no longer supported. Some people still run older versions of the software blocking updates so they can play the products they paid for that are no longer supported by the newer versions of the software regardless if they are purchased modules or hardware.
Yeah, I have Falcon and it's an impressive bit of software. But I spent 10+ years as a 3D modeller and artist, I can't get over the visuals. It's not BMS's fault, it is what it is. But it was the visuals that attracted me to DCS, and flight simming, in the first place. Also, I'm perfectly happy with the DCS F-16. It's the M-2000, Harrier and Eagle I'm gonna miss. A lot. But everyone's different. If the visuals don't bother you and you want to main the Viper, I agree absolutely.
My problem with BMS is the aircraft selection. 1 officially support selection and 1 other supported by the good will of free time. Even with the loss of all Razbam modules DCS still has a wider selection.
Buy only from ED and its fine. Look what ED did with their F-18, awesome stuff or the F-16, i trust only ED, its my opinion! They dont add maybe the shnick-shnack like heatblur (vibrating stuff and all that nonsense who nobody really need) but their modules are top-notch. F-18 is out of early access, my fav bird, its simply the best one with the carrier module....
@@LUCIVER0815 What? I have the F15 which I just bought and AV8B. It's bad enough when little things break between updates, which now won't be fixed with those modules.
ED is at fault here. To just ignore one of their biggest developers’ concerns as well as not caring about their customers by informing them is unacceptable. They already have my money but I will not be giving them another cent until they show their customers the respect they deserve, if at all. This is disgraceful behaviour from ED.
It's likely more complex than that, companies don't just stop paying business partners without cause as it hurts both sides. And RB going very, very public with it, was such a bad idea and even if ED is at fault and this is litigated, RB will likely lose because of that childish reaction.
More likely that Scambam failed to meet Obligations, and then tried to play the Victim, AGAIN; just like they did with HAWK's. Quit blaming E.D. for a 3rd Party Dev that can't actually do what they promise. This is Par for the Course from Scambam; how do you think they got the Moniker?
I understand your points however in this situation, ED needs to pause sale on all affected items at minimum and address their customers as to what’s happening. Finding out that my modules might soon be useless from watching some RUclipsrs is not very reassuring.
I assume store credit or some such will be refunded for the failure to deliver an ordered and paid for product if it so happens that these modules get discontinued or otherwise are finished + kept functional according to the marketed material that garnered the purchases
Given the costs of these modules, its totally unacceptable that people could loose that content. Its also unacceptable that the RAZBAM content is still available to buy given customers could loose that content.
The Community has to put pressure on ED and Razbam to solve this, Videos like this help. What might also help is everyone who bought the F15E, AV8B, South Atlantic, MIG19 and South Atlantic Map asking ED for a refund! I am angry that they have not made a clear statement on this. It's frankly bad business practice.
If you ask for a refund, they will give you store credits, effectively converting the money they stole from Razbam into their own money that they likely legally own.
The "community" means nothing, like in every game. You bought a product, you have a product that you bought. The one you bought it from did not promiss you to keep your product updated for so-and-so long. You have your product already. If you bought an unfinished product - that is then on your hands, because you decided to buy an unfinished product and a bunch of happy thoughts and promisses along with it. So, the community cannot pressure anything. ED or Razbam can close their shops tomorrow and go on permanent vacation no questions asked, they do not owe anyone anything, and the "community" can make a selfie with the box of the products they bought.
Let's reflect back on the day when Falcon 4.0 was released. It was buggy, for 6 months we lived to see another update to fix the bugs. Falcon 4.0 went till version 4.08 at which point MicroProse laid off all the DEVs and closed the franchize. So, when we bought Falcon 4.0, we had like 6 months of supported product - and that was with MicroProse, a big company that is alive and well even today. Luckily someone stole the 4.07 version of the code and shared it, and Falcon 4.0 lives on to this day thanks to that Robin Hood, lol.
I 100% agree with the content of this video, with only one note: dcs is not the only one modern combat flight sim nowadays: there's falcon bms. I know it's a mod of a 90s software, but it has an accurate flight model, complex avionics, atc, dinamic campaign, and decent graphics (always improving, with VR too!).
BMS isn't a contemporary to DCS. It's a far cry content wise. Sure, you've got one real full fidelity module and a dynamic campaign, but DCS transcends multiple eras, has a booming MP scene, and far more content even without a dynamic campaign. The now booming cold war era in DCS is no where near flushed out in BMS. They aren't in the same ballpark IMO. I enjoyed BMS but it's even more sphegetti coded than DCS, and one foot is in the grave. A good dynamic campaign engine on the DCS side will seal the fate of BMS. For BMS to dethrone DCS, it has magnitudes of ground to make up.
@@hook86 bms is nowhere near with a foot on the grave: the developent goes on and there's aleady a full fidelity f-15c. It's still mainly a one type aircraft simulator (with multiple variants) but it's way more "military pilot simulator" than dcs. Not only the dinamic campaign but the atc, the ai, ground units logic and so on. Both the simulators have to add a lot of things to reach each other: bms all the aircrafts and dcs all the environment. DCS wins in multiplayer (and for helicopters), bms wins in single player. I love both and I'd be very sad if dcs shuts off, but an alternative exists.
@@hook86 DCS has never been more popular in actual simulation circles than BMS. Maybe for casual play, DCS is more popular. Arguably it's DCS which has been trying to catch up to BMS for years and failed. The only thing they've resorted to doing lately is pump out as many modules as they can before the company fails and they bail. BMS in the meanwhile will likely keep developing indefinitely, with no real economical pressures.
@@ArchOfficial a description too much against dcs imho: the chance to use different full fidelity models in the same environment, with the possibility to build complex integrated missions online is a unicum, something bms won't be able to do for a long time to come. DCS has its problems (the free to play base game forces to develop and sell always new airplanes, with very long development times to see a module properly finished; the amount of bugs is high and the times for a fix are often too long) but it is a solid platform nevertheless. This Razbam issue is a hard blow for all the ecosystem, but it's up to Eagle Dynamics to minimize the damage, whatever the Razbam decision will be.
@@andrealioce4341 As a counterpoint, none of DCS's systems actually work, so you can't make something resembling a simulation mission in it. All you have is a bunch of different cockpits with different clickable and hotkey-able systems. BMS has no issues with online play fundamentally apart from somewhat antiquated GUI. It's just harder to get into casual arena style scenarios online.
The irony is that if it hasn't been for RAZBAM, 2023 wouldn't have had any releases. Now, effectively, it didn't. I love DCS, and I historically buy every module partly because I want such a cool project to live on. I wanted third party devs to know they have guaranteed sales for something that's so specialized. But the illusion I had that this bit of gaming seemed immune from all the other gaming BS out there has been shattered, and regardless of the outcome, that trust will not be returned. You don't want to give refunds? Fine. I have enough airplanes to learn for a lifetime already. I don't need to buy anymore either.
Same here.. but I did buy the Phantom on Pre-Sale before this Drama and don't regret getting it. I think ED will be closely monitoring the purchases especially during the next round of Summer Sales.
Appreciate the video, Spud. But, for those of us who have the module and don't plan to request refunds, I think tutorials from you and other developers should be kept online. You could just add a disclaimer at the beginning for the sake of new users that there are issues with Razbam and that they need to watch this video before buying the module. I love Razbam products and will still continue to use them. I just don't know, as DCS evolves, if there will be developing conflicts that stop the products from functioning. If Razbam doesn't want to continue, perhaps they can sett all modules to another 3rd party.
This might seem stupid but just a thought i had. Why doesn't Razbam just sell the rights of their dcs modules to other module creators so that the current Razbam modules can be updated and such.
@@doggogaming6895 tbh I can’t see it being any different other than having a jester. I’m not sure the radar simulation on the E can be matched. Also 4th gen planes won’t have as much character like the older generations because it’d all computerized.
I was a Crew Chief on the might Strike Eagle IRL for 6 years @ Seymour Johnson, the E model's release was the ONLY reason I ever even started DCS. I waited years for the aircraft to be released. If the E model dies so does my support for DCS and I will uninstall the game and never come back!
@@epidemik8385 Yeah I hear ya! I have been with ED from the beginning and bought several aircraft going all the way back to the original Blackshark release which had a Russian cockpit (then bought it again when it released with the English pit)! DCS has been my primary hobby outside of my real world flying and I have a LOT of money invested in it, including hardware (VR, motion rig, etc). So, unlike you, I'm not going anywhere regardless of how this turns out lol....BUT...I really hope this situation gets resolved and we get to enjoy our beloved Mudhen for years to come! It's actually my only Razbam product and has become my favorite jet since it's been out!!! I've hardly touched anything else. As you are a former crew chief, I can definitely understand and respect your sentiment 👍🏽
ACTUAL refunds, not just store credits. It's insane how Eagle Dynamics is now taking money away from Razbam and redistributing it through their own modules or other third parties. Unless it's an actual refund, ED is laughing their asses off as they strip away any profits Razbam had and pocketing it for themselves..
Do you know the whole story? NO! Are you a Razbam agend? 🤥 Why do you think ED would not pay them? You have no idea! Stop being foolish, there is a reason for that. You are here today because of a reason, right? Your momy + daddy = here we go you are commentig here and its fine, you got my point? If not, i can continue 🤣🤣🤣
Agree with all of this. A lot of very talented people have done a lot of hard work over a long time to make something special work, and the whole DCS franchise, with all the third party developers, have produced something amazing that pushes the boundaries of what is possible. What they have produced is incredible, and so popular, that I can not believe there isn't enough money to go around . I don't know what the dispute is about, but it does seem to me that things have come to a head since the shambles of the F15E release. I appeal to the good folk at both Eagle Dynamics and Razbam to come to some sort of compromise for the sake of their many loyal and, up until now, happy, customers. I feel that this will benefit everybody in the long run. I hope that they are all in this for that long run.
If they aren't being updated regularly, and are NOT FUNCTIONING PROPERLY, then yes they are Dead until Scambam quits lying and just does the Work they agreed to do to the level the Contract THEY SIGNED requires; and then funnily enough, they will get paid, 🤡!
What's wrong with the F15E, why is ED support missing? Why have some people been granted a refund and others not? What happens to my money invested in modules that no longer have support even though they are early access?
nothing is wrong with the 15 yet, Razbam isn't doing any(or much) work on the jet rn, the WHY is different depending who you talk to. Some people are getting refunds due to EU consumer law I believe. Not sure about the invested money but likely Razbam nor ED are gonna do anything about already invested cash
You don't have an investment. You paid for an agreement that grants you access to a piece of software that does not belong to you, and can be revoked at any time for any reason described in the ToS. Welcome to digital goods ownership. Shit, even when games came on CD's, you were purchasing a license to use the product (and a case, manual and the physical CD-ROM).
Any way, how you can own something dont exist? Its a virtual thing, polygons made with program. If you delete it, its gone. Its not physical thing. Thats the only way. And the modules are in your PC, right? Worst case scenario, they would shut down company, serial code not working anymore.... hey we can crack that and continue using it 😂😂😂. Its like e-mail, a expensive 70 usd e-mail🤑
Lot of hate in the comments, not sure why. I for one appreciated this video; I think Spud is right, we are a small community of people who enjoy flight simulations, we shouldn't be at each others throats. Thanks Spud, I appreciate what you are doing and saying, keep up the good work!
I love the Mirage 2000c but lets be honest Razbam is not known for releasing finished or really good modules on launch. It often takes them years to get to a 80-90% complete status. Unlike Averges or Heatblur. I will give Razbam credit they are often the second best as far as detail in their modules systems.
The F-15e was in a much better EA release state than other modules have been. And steady updates after release, even for 8 months of not getting their sales money from it. I wonder where we would be without that going on in the background.
Coming from a USAF F-15E crew chief, This amazing aircraft has proven its worth and deserves to live on. How come these other legendary aircraft such as the f-18 and f-14 get to keep living and the F-15E always keeps getting skipped over. No one will ever understand the power of the F-15E I have seen it and I have lived it! Shout out to all my amazing pilots who fly this absolute high maintenance beast.
Even if the futur is not certain, and certainly looking dark beetwin ED and Razbam...It can be good that if the community (including influencers) stop to abuse with affirmative title...We are not 100% sure yet if those modules are defenitivly dead. They still can find any kind of agreement, and if not any solutions to save something. This is not a game for the ppl behind. Clients, devs, subcontractors, and even ED. I think the DCS community is mature enought to don't play (and even generate) with drama and specullation.Thank you.
Appreciate what you do Spud. A Video that needed to be made. Only Eagle Dynamics can bring stability to this situation. Wish someone would throw money at them and let Wags be Wags.
Spud this is absolutely stupid. You have ZERO evidence of anything going on other than rumors and scuttlebutt! You guys are being drama queens and feeding negativity into this situation and NOT helping it in Any w=y! My gosh it’s only been a couple of months! Let these companies work it out and stop feeding drama into it! I expected better from you than this! Disappointing to say the least!
I think both sides are obligated to find a new road to coexisting, the damage to the DCS concept might suffer a major blow toi if they can't find a way to keep the modules alive then we as customers haave a legal claim, and we must be compensated. This is a very dark omen for ED and DCS.
Hate to say it, but you aren't legally entitled to shit. This is digital goods, you paid for a license to access the software as long as you abide by the ToS. The ToS, more than likely, does not have a clause granting you protection from defects in the software. As far as I'm aware, the only place that has consumer protections on defective digital goods is the EU. Even then, the EU directive doesn't seem to prohibit ED from offering refunds in the form of store credit. If you live in the US, good fucking luck. We consumers like to think we have protections, but this is neo-liberal capitalism. Our consumer protections have been absolutely gutted over the years; the agencies meant to uphold what little protections remain are being defunded left, right and centre. We as a society love fighting tooth and nail on behalf of the people who fuck us over the worst.
@@cmdrbigity6914 Just research rule 1.13 on ED and you'll find yourself facing a ginormous rabbit hole that actually has been real for quite a significant period of time.
The fact that we’re all in this situation is 100% EDs responsibility. They have to ensure 3rd party devs keep maintaining their modules, when they fail that, they’re failing their contract with their costumers. They get a cut of every sale so this should never happen, even the doubt of modules failing should never be a thing.
It ain't dead until the Coroner, in this case Nick Grey, says " It's with deep regret, that today, due to a train wreck, we're sad to announce the death of the F15, along with it's siblings, the AV8B, The Mirage 2000, and the internment will take place in the South Atlantic, family donations are a bit of a sore point, so screenshots of your time together will help with the recovery process"
When they relased the F15 with almost no weapons and you compare it to the F4 release, well you can figure out how it would end. I got the F-15 and asked for my money back I was not flying it anyway. I mean the strike eagle is a hell of a ride but coming from razbam it was going to be trouble.
Not necessarily. The issue right now, is that the F-15E and other Razbam modules are still being sold despite not currently receiving any sort of maintenance. We don't necessarily know if this is permanent; given the information we have about the situation is needless to say, highly charged and emotional - not necessarily a safe source to base one's opinions on. Regardless though, continuing to sell modules, such as the M2K, without notifying the customers that they're (at the very least) temporarily not being maintained and are suffering game-breaking bugs, is the issue. This is less so directed at the developers, who are obviously doing what they can behind the scenes to come to an amicable solution, and more so for the overall player-base who isn't in the weeds of DCS drama along with some of spud's personal anecdotes. I have to assume, if it's true that Razbam simply haven't asked for their modules to be taken down yet, that some sort of solution is on the horizon, but that doesn't mean that the situation will be amended soon.
I just joined DCS a month ago, what is going on with this module? sorry but in the video (not knowing the background) i've no idea what you're talking about...
Opt out of DCS updates and keep your modules working until they solve this petty issue.... along with that is you do not buy another ED product until these issues are rectified.
Yep, I HAD wanted to jump on the OH-58D but I'm not doing it solely because of this RAZBAM issue. I got burned with KSP2 and now the F-15E and South Atlantic are uncertain. Holding off buying anything else for DCS until there is sufficient information to make more informed decisions.
@@shokwavxb Notice it's only Scambam that is claiming they didn't get paid though? That's what happens though when you don't meet your CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATIONS; YOU DON'T GET PAID!
You can call it dead after ED and Razbam have confirmed that razbam modules will not be further developed and maintained, not before. Currently this is 1. a clickbait title and 2. just stirs up uncertainty without you actually having any real or even useful info.
6:18 LOL! Gottem! 8:10 Understandable. But for me it sucks. I was just about to finally get myself into that thing (and the Phantom, ofc) and the best tutorial videos get pulled now for sensible reasons. I literally had like 2 or 3 take offs and landings each with that thing, have barely even mapped my controls and that was it. When it dropped, VR performance was literally uncredibly horriful at least for me, so I took a break from DCS and the hype around the Phantom release kinda brought me back for another shot - to this. It genuinely sucks. 9:17 Well said. This^
Let me see if I can sum this up for all, but I will say I hope somehow it works out. Anything you pay for in advance may not be delivered, because the pay is the incentive to deliver. Once you get paid the incentive is no longer as attractive because the initial release was where the money was. I will give HeatBlur and Polychop credit for releasing as close to complete modules as they could. The lesson to learn from this is be wary of incomplete products if the seller demands full price up front. Anyone who has ever hired a contractor should know this.
The inevitable end of this mess is either reconciliation, or a class action lawsuit. Blame is getting slung and the big egos at ED and at Razbam need to get their collective heads out of their collective backsides before some of us older sophisticated users start talking to our class action lawyers....
This is clickbait hands down there is no evidence that the F15 is dead. Your videos have been less and less useful to the community. I have unsubscribed to your channel and I ask all others from the community to do the same.
05:30 imo.. if the source code is taken over under contract stipulations. It will be slow to come, but the F15E and others will come back online. We will know this has happened when we get a patch that shows ED updated the modual.. followed by an announcement that RB and ED have officially parted ways but that RB's currently release modules will again be serviced.. albeit at a slower rate due to work load on devs and their priorities.
Why make this video? If there was an official statement that razbam is done.....you didnt reference it once. Next time you dont want to make a video might be better to just not make it unless its an official statement of more meaning than im not happy about this. Theres really nothing in this video
I have been playing in dcs 10 for over 10 years, I think that RASBAM should continue its activities. The most player-friendly company available in DCS. There should be no pressure on this company because basically the guys from RAZBAM are making UFO technology for us and it is probably difficult for them to program such intelligent avionics for all of us. Jealousy or greed? DCS huey with badly programmed wrong size of objects (scale) and virtual soldiers who don't die when you shoot them from an on-board minigan for 10 minutes in the campaign by the Belarusian BELSIMTEK is probably not better. Although the F15C is quite good by the BELSIMTEK .
I quit playing DCS around the 15E's release date and now I randomly see this video in my feed. Quite a lot seems to have happened since then, but my original concerns about DCS's buisness model are rearing their ugly heads again, unfortunately. I quit because many of my favorite modules were accumulating bugs and "balance changes" that made them less and less playable as time went on. Huey lost the ability to change seats and control your other crew. R-27s couldn't regain lock after seeing a single chaff particle (intentional change). F-15C folds like paper at 10Gs, while the F-16 got the ability to pull -6Gs or so in the same update (both intentional). Ka-50 3 can't fire rockets without being above 50kph (intentional, but badly implemented). I'm sure many of these complaints are outdated, forgotten, or accepted as normal now but they made me realize that modules I buy won't be what I own in the future.
huey is set in the Mission editor, F-15 and F-16 change are just realistic and my R-27's still seem totaly fine to use... u sure the ER also didnt lock back on? (since it has midflight Datalink)
Thank you for your thoughts. I hope you are wrong that these airframes are dead and hope you are right for a joint statement that they are working together to resolve the issue for all involved.
@@Spudknocker so... does you (and other youtuber's) delisting your tutorials mean you're all siding with ED, or with RAZBAM? i dont understand. btw i used to practice eating crayons occasionally so i have a dog in this race too. i read a blog thing but i cant see which way the gamers are leaning...
@@hurrikage09 thanks, but spud was very clear/adamant about removing eagle videos. i ask anyone again, why are dcs channels even doing that, if no one knows enough to "take sides"? im guessing they don't want to glamorise a module that noobs might then go and purchase?
F15E is the most enjoyment in DCS it’s what got me playing as a newcomer. It’s an absolute shame that both parties haven’t come out with official statement. Even with its unfinished state it’s an amazing plane to fly. But I feel as a relative outsider, DCS needs to get their shit together, late releases, outdated coding in the game. In the world of amazing game engines it will be left behind.
None of the RB modules have gone anywhere. This is just clickbait to stir up drama at this point. Nobody knows how this is going to work out and anyone who says otherwise is just looking for attention.
Spoiler alert - everyone *is* jumping the gun. Nothing is dead yet, the clickbait here and the broad assumptions being made are very frustrating. Calling Razbam modules dead when literally a few days ago a bug was fixed with the M2000 is something. Yes to be fair, it probably shouldn't have even happened in the first place but that's besides the point - no one except those specifically involved in the dispute knows the full extent of the issues. As Spud even said himself, we have one side that's not commenting publicly aside from their initial statement and the other that has not only made a few emotionally charged statements to the public, but also has employees and volunteers that likely don't know the specifics making comments too, some of which don't have actual proof behind them (or if they do, they aren't sharing it). All that's happening now is mudslinging on either side when in reality, this has to be settled through legal avenues. I absolutely think this situation is very frustrating as well but this video ain't it in my view.
I am waiting for this plane very patiently and I would really like the difficult situation with this module to finally end. ED, Razbam - I'm counting on you guys to come to an agreement.
You know Spud, the "E" is my favorite aircraft of all time. It's so sad to see it dies like this. I was not even touching it anymore, so sad that I am with the state of affairs. But, you know, seeing all the beautiful images, the music...it made me want to fly it again. And again. Even if it breaks, I will fly it to the sunset. I won't ask for a refund. Just because I love this bird so much. And, I will keep a copy of Razbam modules files in some other place, just in case in the future, the community gets together and we have a BMS like revival of these modules. I believe that the community can and will do a great job on them if giving the chance.
Taking down tutorial videos is a childish move. It does nothing alienate potential new gamers, and further drives the stake into the heart of the F15E and DCS as a whole. Shame on you.
This game just became food for youtubers and a nightmare for the casual player. And a lot of people still falls for it because of the pretty gameplays that some people still put on. Pretty graphics, lots of clickable planes, but at the cost of what? Lots of unfinished material, poor optimization, terrible AI (inherited from the original game from 2003) and lack of single player content (most of it ripped off from lomac). Falcon BMS is a hundred times superior in many aspects, even after all this years. Im just saying: dont buy anything from this game, try it out for free and if you still want to buy something, buy the original ED modules like Ka-50 or A-10, because those at least are almost finished and stable. The rest is just unfinished stuff with lots of bugs, a cashgrab to keep the company afloat.
I feel it should be ED's responsibility to ensure future compatibility with third party modules. If ED makes a profit off of every third party aircraft and scenery that's sold, they can't continue to sell products that may lose the ability to function properly (or at all) in the future without angering a lot of customers. This would be a downward spiral that would inevitably lead to the introduction of new major competitors to DCS; some of which may already be in development.
Which would require them to have the source code for that module. Apparently that's one of the points of contention. After the Hawk incident ED required all 3rd party devs to sign a new contract stating that the source code for each of their modules would be put into escrow so that if the dev folded or something else happened, ED would have what they needed to keep it up to date. Allegedly, RB hasn't given ED any code for any of their modules. That's my understanding. Who knows what's really going on? Sadly, despite how many people are demanding answers, if they're working on a lawsuit, we aren't going to ever hear much.
@@AvengerBB1 Depends on when contracts were signed. ED has confirmed they don't have any for RB modules - because they weren't required to provide it.
You can thank intellectual property law for that
ED has a clause that if a third party Dev walks away they have to make the source code available.
So they are.
@@kypdurron62 That's very good to know.
Unnecessary, clickbait title. None of these aircraft are dead yet, they're stuck in an ugly situation with an unknown timeline on a yet to be determined solution. Jumping the gun and calling them all "dead" at this point is a bad take.
Thank you for pointing this out! Spud loves to clickbait here and there.
Not dead by a technicality alone
Their days are numbered if they don’t get over themselves and resolve the dispute
You buying any of them right now?
@@cmdrbigity6914 I already own all of them. That being said I think they should remove them from the store while they sort this out. Even then, it wouldn't mean they were "dead", they'd be (hopefully)temporarily unavailable. This is a progressing situation and we don't yet know how it will end, a content creator with a large following calling them "dead" is both lazy and irresponsible.
LOL they’re deleting critical comments. Spud can sure dish out the criticism but can’t take any.
As someone who also got burned by the VEAO Hawk, the debacle with Razbam has meant I will seriously consider third party add ons for DCS. There needs to be a cast iron guarantee at point of purchase that support will be continued and if the original developer is unable or unwilling to facilitate that then ED need to pick up the slack to keep their platform alive and customer confidence.
Especially
for almost $100 per module
Regardless of who is at fault, communication to it's customers is key. Both parties need to issue a statement regarding the modules development/continued support or refund strategies for both steam and standalone users. Continued silence and speculation is doing both parties a great deal of harm.
Refund... well, that's a good joke.
It's likely this is all tied up in legal review and one or both parties can't say much until their lawyers address it officially. That's also going to hold up any action from both parties that could affect things (pulling a product, removing it from the store until it's sorted, etc).
I know at my work (not game/software development, granted) when legal issues crop up, we aren't allowed to publicly say anything until legal has weighed in on the matter, and most times, provided us a very specific cookie-cutter response we are allowed to use. And those things don't happen quickly.
That’s so disappointing for me, I was so looking forward for the Strike eagle as it’s my favorite jet
Same dude, it’s so amazingly capable even without datalink, a good pod and such
You know, I wonder if DCS will become like minecraft java, where when you launch the game you select from a drop down box from every release version out there, if not by ED then by the community. This would be sad because the modules become less interconnected, but at the same time at least we CAN play them.
I was sad when I heard razbam was making it
@@Kevin-yh8ol 15 years ago?
I've barely flown mine, maybe 4-5 times in addition to the tutorials. It was on my list, but assuming it was getting regular updates I was Ok with learning other, more complete, aircraft first. I suppose that's good in a way, I haven't wasted as much time learning it. Silver lining? Not so much, really. I can't say the same for the Mirage and Harrier. The Mirage was probably my favourite 4th gen plane as it was the first one I got my head around due to its somewhat simplified systems (compared to the Bug, the Eagle and the Viper). I am gutted that the Mirage is already breaking, I was intending to fly all my campaigns, both paid and the ones I've downloaded, one more time. But unless they are A2G only, and I can't think of any that are, it's pointless. And I'd just managed to deal with a problem with the Harrier I'd had since I bought it (it turns out I needed to zero all the controls and reload) and was just starting to have real fun with it.
This all seems a tad... dramatic. Razbam modules can be considered dead if ED discontinues support of them, but right now we don't even know if that's going to happen. Maybe the modules will die, maybe ED gets the source code from Razbam as a part of a legal resolution of their beef with each other and ED continues development, maybe Razbam and ED find a more amicable solution to their dispute and Razbam continues development... nobody knows what will happen.
ED does not have the code. They have confirmed this.
@@cmdrbigity6914 ... right, hence the "legal resolution" bit. Razbam gets paid out for their work in exchange for the source code being handed to ED, or something along those lines - again, we don't know what will happen. ED doesn't have the source code right now, that can change, it may not.
@@CrazedAndroid I'd rather RB goes back to work after being paid vs it being ...adjusted to the level of other modules (talking about HRM, AG radar, AA radar, TFR). Those systems are above and beyond in the mudhen.
If Razbam is out, the source code is out, then the modules are out.
@@theonefrancis696 Razbam can be out, it doesn't mean the source code will always be lost in that case. Again, Razbam could end up handing the source code over to ED, or they can go scorched earth and delete every copy of the source code they have. We don't know what will happen yet.
It's much worse than you think.
Because of the drama, people have gotten it into their heads that the issue facing DCS is a conflict between ED and Razbam but this is just a symptom of a contradiction at the heart of DCS's business model:
ED develops DCS, they are incentivized to keep adding features and improvements to make the sim more marketable, which means that modules must receive continuous updates too, or become riddled with bugs and unplayable. At some point each and every module ever developed will reach its market cap when most potential customers already own it, at which point the module-developers are incentivized to move on to develop new modules so they can keep turning a profit. They are not incentivized to keep updating old modules that are no longer profitable since this does nothing but rack up cost. This is why every piece of commercial software ever released has a lifetime in which it is supported but is eventually dropped. This isn't a problem that can be solved, it's a contradiction inherent to the business model. No module is excepted.
The way to overcome the contradiction is to either centralize development under one company so that the makers of the sim are incentivized to also update the modules, or to go open source. Falcon BMS has been updated for over 20 years and WILL outlast DCS. Not becuase it's sexier or more marketable but because it's open source and its model doesn't contradict itself!
As a consumer I have always been against the subscription based model but that may be the only option going forward. I don’t know…
did they maybe incentivize?? maybe? a bit?
@@colinkelly990 not the only option, but seems like a good contender, however or something like Microsoft Flight Sim where you buy the base game and modules aside seems like a better option considering how shit core DCS is
This is what has always worried me long term its a losing business model.
@@nero995 MSFS and DCS are very similar in terms of business model. Asobo builds the engine, and also a few modules. They maintain the core sim, as well as their modules. just as ED does. There are also 3rd party module makers who can submit their work for approval and sell it on the MSFS marketplace. There are two significant differences in my mind: the market cap for GA and airline sims is seemingly much higher than combat flight sims. DCS has also only recently hit around 200 employees. Asobo has been that size for years now. ED is still a small business when it comes to game development.
Subscription works well for companies like Iracing, but SaaS creates a feeling of entitlement for new content and features. People will not pay a monthly fee to only receive bug fixes, and performance updates. Consumers will say they want stabilization updates and perf updates in one breath, and with the next they will complain that they haven't received enough new content.
It's not dead. You don't know one bit how this dispute will resolve. It's dead when it's actually dead and not before.
Still tho, at the worst these videos are wakeup calls for the community and the devs
The devs are well aware. Its just stirring drama
@@generic_lukeThe devs are silent, stirring drama makes them less so.
the one guy that makes the radar and the flight model is gone....
@@BRUHisthatleo it's said that he'll come back though (once this shit is done)
It is now 11/13/2024. Until I receive either a refund (as a steam purchaser) or updates for the module I will not be giving ED another dime.
Hey guys, I really haven't wanted to make this video, but a bunch of you guys wanted me to weigh in, and am definitely worried about the future of DCS as a result of the death of the F-15E and other Razbam modules.
Mudhen aint dead yet! (but seems more likely every day)
Didn’t want to make this video. Riiiiiiiight.
Man this issue needs to be discussed more than it is now, and addressed by ED, instead of censoring any mention of it
got to say man the clickbait was not good though
@@joshcochran2217 Lmao
Of these, the Mirage 2000C is still getting fixes but only because an old dev is contributing them to ED.
But the M2000c is currently the only Razbam module that is already unplayable, due to the stupid cold start bug. 🤷🏻♂️🤷🏻♂️
It’s only a matter of time that all the RB modules goes the same way.
@@cowboy10uk Are you talking about the G-limiter issue? That was fixed in the latest patch this week (no patch notes were submitted for it so it doesn't show in the change log but users confirmed on the DCS forums that it IS fixed).
@@cowboy10uk That was fixed last patch.
@@cowboy10uk It was fixed. The first thing I checked because I had a feeling it was a simple fix and ED would "forget" to add it to the patch notes. lol
praise chicken
If the harrier dies that'll basically be it for me with DCS. I don't have a huge amount of time and its' the only jet I can keep currency in and be able to just pick up and fly well. Not to mention it's my favourite jet in future in general. While I have the Strike Eagle I haven't actually flown in it and while the cost is a pain, it isn't the end of the world. I do think continuing to sell it is a very bad play.
Gotta admit I'm on the fence about buying any more third party modules now. Which includes the Kiowa which I've been looking forwards to for years.
Same, my main planes are Harrier and Mig19, if these are allowed to die then I am done with DCS. Until this gets resolved my wallet is closed to ED.
As many, if this is really the end of the F-15E it's a really hard blow. The only reason I got back into flight sims was because of how fantastic the F-15's looked, and the only reason I stayed was because of the promise of the F-15E. It allowed users to fully enjoy DCS AA and AG. Spud, your content has been AMAZING over my 2 year journey, thank you. With all the rhetoric going on this about Razbam and ED, this one was one of the hardest to watch, you captured the sentiment well.
The very same day I watch a video about the latest F-15EX delivered to the Oregon ANG, and a video about the possible discontinuation of the RB F-15E in DCS! History has its twists for sure!
Those EX boys are loud. But iam happy to have them here.
Why they are still selling the F-15 on the store?
Because ED doesnt care about you, it just wants your money
To my understanding, there’s only a disagreement, but nothing is dead yet.
Maybe because RB hasn't yet requested a recall of their product. Therefore, from my point of view, it looks like neither side wants to end the cooperation and instead is trying to find a joint solution.
ED already spent the money they were supposed to pay to Razbam.
because they can refund for store credit.
One thing is certain:
We will be getting more game breaking bugs in Razbams Modules in the future.
If this dispute goes on for another few months my feeling is that some talented modders and hackers will take it upon themselves to create workarounds and fixes for the most serious issues.
I don't think Razbam attempting to get ED to blink by using the community as leverage and refusing to update their modules will have the same impact over the long-term as it is having over this last 2 months. The community and platform will adapt in some unexpected and surprising ways and the show will go on.
Refusing? They continued to work for 8 months without a dime from ED from their sold modules. I wouldn't say they are 'refusing to update'. They are owned money (at least that is their stance).
I believe that will end being up the case. The community take to itself to update and maintain the module.
One workaround solution is to have a second copy of DCS installed with the Razbam modules and don't update it; at least you can play it without it being broken.
@@cmdrbigity6914 Except we don't know the reasoning, or if that's true, because it's all just one side that keeps talking while the other is staying quiet, likely for legal reasons.
Could be that they didn't get paid recently because they haven't fulfilled their contractual obligation to provide ED with their source code to their modules so that ED can have a backup in case Razbam suddenly decides to leave DCS. It could be that Razbam aren't happy and want to take their modules to MSFS or something else, and there's some legal dispute there.
Either way, everyone speculating nonstop just helps to spread more rumors, that as far as I can tell, are based on here say and random internet comments being parroted. I will say, I find it hard to believe that ED randomly decided to punish one specific developer for no real reason, while continuing to work with their other developers without issue. It just seems odd to me that they would suddenly decide to not pay one developer, who has been working with DCS as one of the first developers around.
Agreed that everyone should put away the pitchforks but it's premature to declare anything as dead.
TBT... I think people need to understand that at the end of the day, the reason none of the other third-party devs are saying anything, is that because, unlike Razbam, while they have to wait for money to come in, Razbam has basically called dibs on multiple aircraft and are trying to develop them all at the same time, rather than focusing on one, getting it out, and moving onto the next. The only other dev with multiple aircraft in development right now, is Heatblur, and even then, they've set up in a way that they can handle the wait.
From what I can gather of the situation, all of this stems from an issue with RB getting paid what they want, vs what they're contractually owed per module. While it is understandable to want more money, it should be understood that for best results, it is best to wait for contract renegotiation time, and handle things quietly, rather than explode all over Social Media and throwing accusations around.
We may never know all the finer details. But I think we can all agree that in the end... Those of us with these modules will get to keep them. After all, ED has the source code, and can fix issues that crop up. But until either Razbam chills out, or another team takes over the development, the modules will remain in their current state. Personally, I'm fine with this. If the modules still function, and bugs are fixed by ED as they come up, that's fine. I would only call a module 'dead', if a game breaking bug comes up, and multiple patches go by without a fix.
thing with Heatblur is: they can do what RB wants to do Heatblur is a Massive team and additionally they develope some modules with other teams (for Example the EF-2000 with TruGrit)
Sure they are in a Sticky situation and i hate to be informed that ED and RB are not in their Best moods rn... i hope they can find a way to solve this!
VEAO Hawk disaster? The P-40 was in preorder. I had already redeemed the license. That was the real loss with VEAO.
I missed the lock on this conflict. What is going on with ED, DCS and Razbam?
ED never paid them for the f15E and claims they breached contract. Razbam after almost a year comes out publicly about it and now the community is in an uproar. Also ED said they would have third party sources codes if this were to happen and it turns out that they lied and that aren’t legally allowed to do such a thing.
This video is entirely FUD. People need to chill out until there is official word from either party.
We need an update from ED, Nick Grey.
How am I supposed to take any of this seriously, when without any evidence at all, the outcome of the conflict between ED and Razbam is already being presented as certain?
It seems to me that the taking down of tutorial videos is aimed at penalizing Razbam, when in reality, it is only penalizing those who have already purchased the module.
Putting up addendums and caveats on videos and their descriptions etc., that the Eagle _might_ fall out of support completely, that Razbam--or ED--might end their partnership, that experience shows that for the time being no updates to the Eagle may be expected, that is all truthful, but "The F15-E Is Dead", I can only view as an attempt to rile up panic. I expected more from this channel.
Misleading title and video. The F-15E and other razbam modules aren't 'dead'. Nobody really knows whats going to happen outside of Razbam and ED themselves
Everyone should just take a step back and take a deep breath. They should be able to come to a mutual agreement in the near future. Just Relax and DCS on…
If you know how greedy corporations are, you know it was over from the beginning.
Exactly!
'Near'. If lawyers are involved they are gonna want it to take as long as possible - billable hours
@@theonefrancis696 yea... it just felt like dcs was somehow different, that we were so small and so passionate that if something like this happens we can forget our differences and work together... guess not
@@SyrupDipper It's not only that. They are literally selling unmaintained modules to scrape the bottom of the barrel, while lawsuits work on a dispute.
It's a legal scam, plain and simple. This is probably just the tip of the iceberg of the absolute mental stuff happening behind the curtain.
Well it's been a couple of months. What's happening about this now?
hey spud, irl question. what aircraft(s) do you fly for your airline?
It’s just aircraft you don’t need to add an S to it
Hey dude right now I fly the 737 I used to fly like all models of the Airbus A320
Where are you based Spud?
@@Spudknocker cool!
@@RW-zn8vy some pilots dual qualify (for example 767/757 are the same qualifications because the avionics/cockpit/systems are almost completely identical)
Updated DCS to the latest stable version yesterday, now every time I start DCS I get a popup message stating the F15E module is no longer authorized. It still shows as installed, but no longer is an available aircraft. Anyone else had their F15E disabled?
Check anti-virus. Restore any quarantined files.
A little premature to make such declarations.
"Death of module"
"Removing videos"
yadda yadda.....
6 or 7 updates and not a single update for the F-15 Others have removed training videos just the same Casmo and Deephack are two...
@@tomgaro1159 Yeah no shit that there hasn't been an update, that's the entire point. RAZBAM has been witheld payment, has continued making updates, but won't push them to ED without getting paid. No one knows who is legally in the wrong here, and it's perfectly sensible for RAZBAM to receive payment for something that they had been working on for the better part of a decade. Depending on how badly they breached their contract will determine the terms from here, but we truly have no idea what to expect.
The dll files for Strike Eagle's radar is broken due to expired code signature certificates.
I wouldnt say the f15e is dead. Razbam said they
want to continue to develop after everything is settled down. Just because they dont get updates for a short while they arent dead.
Ps: i also dont understand why you delete the f15e tutorials just because of a conflict between razbam and ed that might be sorted out in 2 weeks.
you didn't even say anything about the argument. ED is withholding all payments from razbam, and has been for months, because razbam was working on a Tucano project for the ecuadorian airforce but was designing the military only simulator version at no cost with the approval of ecuador to give htem access to the necessary information to very accurately model the aircraft and to use it for an eventual DCS release module. ED wanted money for this, and simply stopped paying razbam at all, claiming they were taking what they felt they were owed for the "development" of a module on their platform. This being a military contract, they arbitrarily set an enormous sum and simply ate *all* of razbams F15E revenue without paying them an ounce. razbam continued to work for months on the F15E trying to resolve this until they literally ran out of capital due to lack of income. they can't ask their developers to work for no pay, and ED is refusing to accept razbam's claim that they will of course be entitled to their normal share of any sales of the eventual DCS world super tucano, presumably because they know they can ask for huge dollars from a government contract, but since the government contract isn't with ED, it's with Razbam who owns the source code and the information, they're essentially holding them hostage in an attempt to legally aquire said source code and or be "bought out". The side on ED seems to consist of "we could have made a bunch of money off this why are you not charging the ecuadorian government a huge sum" and then withholding cash in an attempt to get razbam to either give them the source code or pay them for the missed revenue, which they can't do because razbam took all their income. It seems like the worst you can accuse razbam here of is unprofessionalism, public outbursts on the part of the CEO, and being too charitable with the ecuadorian government in regards to designing a real training simulator for them at no cost other than the classified performance materials. Razbam didn't steal anything from ED or cost ED anything or put out sub par modules. ED wanted that sweet government contract money that doesn't exist. Razbam is getting obliterated because of it, and frankly as a computer scientist if i worked for a third party company and suddenly had my paychecks stop and my being told that there's literally no money to pay me and we should seek alternative work until ED gives us the revenue from the strike eagle, you best believe i wouldn't even consider simply giving away the rights to code that i worked on to the company that to my view is holding me hostage over something they'd been informed about and that hadn't been an issue until a few months ago when the tucano contract had been worked on for over 2 years with no problem for ecuador prior. Razbam worked for 3 months with no pay hoping they could settle on some agreement out of court with ED to keep updating the strike eagle. They only stopped updating when they literally ran out of cash reserves and couldn't pay their employees because there *was* no income of any kind. Razbam made the F15E, an excellent module which sold like absolute insanity, and did not receive even a dollar for it because ED decided they wanted to be paid for a full on military contract on a modern turbo prop light attack aircraft for Ecuador to train their pilots with.
we don't know what's going on because they haven't updated us since saying that both parties are working to try and find a solution and hope that they can end up with a positive resolution to it with this text on april 7
[7:21 AM]razbam_prowler: @here
Dear customers and community
RAZBAM Simulations is actively working with EAGLE DYNAMICS to reach an agreement to resolve our internal dispute and we don't want the discussion that our public declaration has generated to escalate any further. We want to assure you that it has never been nor will it be our intention to abandon our products. We look forward to a prompt and satisfactory resolution, turn the page, and move forward.
Best regards
Ron Zambrano
CEO
RAZBAM Simulations, LLC (edited)
Source of this info? That’s the most detailed explanation of what’s going on that I’ve found thus far; Would like to confirm.
The reason why Scambam hasn't been paid is because the FAILED TO MEET CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATIONS, ergo they didn't get paid because they haven't met the Standards that was placed in their contract to prevent them from pulling another HAWK's; hence why they are known as Scambam!
@@JozMkII Most likely Metal2Mesh from one of his rants. There's probably some truth there, but it's obviously biased and not official. We'll see eventually I guess
Well said. I have a bunch of modules and this dispute is making me reconsider my commitment to DCS as a whole. ED NEEDS to resolve this issue once and for all.
I will not buy any new DCS products unless they refund me for the F-15 on Steam.
Steam has its own refund policy. Thats outside of EDs control
👏👏👈
Go cry to Scambam, as this is par for the Course from them! They failed to meet Contractual obligations to get paid, and then try to play the Victim when they get caught; just like they did with that Turd that was the HAWK's DLC.
Maybe you can try transferring all your module to the standard-lone DCS and refund the F15?
@@generic_luke Steam has made exceptions in the past for abandoned games
Hey Spud, just want to say sorry for all the people giving you a hard time for your title, yes the module is still in the game but it is not receiving updates and is up in the air wether it will stay in the game, I believe it is valid to say it is a dead module because right now there most definitely is no life in it.
Thank you for all you do, keep up the great vids ❤️
This shit is why i transitioned to Falcon BMS.... BMS is miles ahead in almost everything but graphics and the amount of flyable planes. But both of these caveats are set to change since in the 4.38 update they will completely overhaul the terrain engine and graphics. Also they figured out how to make custom airframes and there's already a full fidelity F-15C alongside the F-16. And the best part is that all of it is practically free.
They can also develop it for years/decades without expecting profit, which is in a way a working development model. There is little chance that a commercial product can actually match a product like that in depth and simulation accuracy while still remaining economically viable. The modules would need to cost a few thousand dollars per user to be viable if they were developed as an actual simulation closer to something like BMS. Sales are very low in simulation and costs are very high.
I honestly don't see how DCS has a future with how they keep making half-baked simulation models which are simultaneously high-cost but also not very fulfilling, mostly being just pretty cockpits and a few cool simulations of singular systems. I've been saying this for over half a decade, being a DCS player for over a decade.
Good luck doing combined operations with air and ground working together in a 120+ clients server with BMS.
I'm not hating on BMS, i love it but you can't say it is ahead of DCS in any aspect, IMO.
@@Kid574 Is there a single case of a 120+ player server running with acceptable performance? I also shudder to think of how many thousands of man-hours it takes to set up a mission for that.
One of the points of BMS is also that you don't need hundreds of players for a somewhat realistic battlespace, because the AI is capable of doing it. Most units will be capable of organizing games in the low dozens at most, which will work far better in BMS.
That's just stuff like AI or mission planning, though. Not even touching the better simulation of almost all functions.
@@ArchOfficial Check Grim Reapers videos about Joint Thunder operation. That should give you an idea, though those were early missions where stuff were still being tuned ;)
@@Kid574 Ah yes, Grim Reapers, well known for hardcore simulation and not arcade bullshit.
Well done Spud and other creators. Using your support platform of modules for good. Temporarily removing training videos will show the 2 parties that if nothing is moved forward then support for the platform and modules involved will not continue. Kudos to you.
The person who launched the matter was the Enigma channel, which is continually complaining about ED; This channel did not add any information, just continuing the gossip. So far, no Razbam module has died, only the reputation of those who gossip.
The M2000 and F15E are some of my favorite modules. The M2000 was my go to sortie runner. It's said to see this happening. I hope this does get resolved soon :(
I disagree with content creators deleting their videos because a product that was supported at one time is no longer supported. Some people still run older versions of the software blocking updates so they can play the products they paid for that are no longer supported by the newer versions of the software regardless if they are purchased modules or hardware.
I have a solution for those who are having issues with DCS with all these fiasco: it’s called Falcon BMS.
When it looks even remotely as good as DCS, especially in VR, I will for sure check it out. I hear that allegedly that day may be coming.
a sim with one or maybe two flyable aircraft?
Yeah, I have Falcon and it's an impressive bit of software. But I spent 10+ years as a 3D modeller and artist, I can't get over the visuals. It's not BMS's fault, it is what it is. But it was the visuals that attracted me to DCS, and flight simming, in the first place. Also, I'm perfectly happy with the DCS F-16. It's the M-2000, Harrier and Eagle I'm gonna miss. A lot. But everyone's different. If the visuals don't bother you and you want to main the Viper, I agree absolutely.
My problem with BMS is the aircraft selection. 1 officially support selection and 1 other supported by the good will of free time. Even with the loss of all Razbam modules DCS still has a wider selection.
@@Cavthena if only DCS had a dynamic campaign
2 of the 3 planes i own are possibly RIP? Won't be buying anymore modules
Only you dont have to RB modules ^^
just dont buy razbam
Buy only from ED and its fine. Look what ED did with their F-18, awesome stuff or the F-16, i trust only ED, its my opinion! They dont add maybe the shnick-shnack like heatblur (vibrating stuff and all that nonsense who nobody really need) but their modules are top-notch. F-18 is out of early access, my fav bird, its simply the best one with the carrier module....
@@LUCIVER0815 What? I have the F15 which I just bought and AV8B. It's bad enough when little things break between updates, which now won't be fixed with those modules.
@@MAXIMUMintheHORMONE same, I have Harrier and Mig19, do not have money to buy new modules unless we get refunded if RB modules die. UNACCEPTABLE.
His phone vibrating at 5:00 had me searching for a hidden phone somewhere
ED is at fault here. To just ignore one of their biggest developers’ concerns as well as not caring about their customers by informing them is unacceptable. They already have my money but I will not be giving them another cent until they show their customers the respect they deserve, if at all.
This is disgraceful behaviour from ED.
It's likely more complex than that, companies don't just stop paying business partners without cause as it hurts both sides. And RB going very, very public with it, was such a bad idea and even if ED is at fault and this is litigated, RB will likely lose because of that childish reaction.
More likely that Scambam failed to meet Obligations, and then tried to play the Victim, AGAIN; just like they did with HAWK's. Quit blaming E.D. for a 3rd Party Dev that can't actually do what they promise. This is Par for the Course from Scambam; how do you think they got the Moniker?
I understand your points however in this situation, ED needs to pause sale on all affected items at minimum and address their customers as to what’s happening. Finding out that my modules might soon be useless from watching some RUclipsrs is not very reassuring.
I assume store credit or some such will be refunded for the failure to deliver an ordered and paid for product if it so happens that these modules get discontinued or otherwise are finished + kept functional according to the marketed material that garnered the purchases
I bought the f15e , shows as purchase, but it doesn't show in my account transaction....
wtf.. maybe they are removing it? did you get the module though and able to download it?
You have to start the game and then a popup will ask you. If not, on the top you can select it, then the download starts. Lol
Can you drop those sluggish CFTs like the real Echo model when it goes out on intercept missions?
Talking about clickbait.. its a legal dispute. 3 days later "all modules are dead"... Wow..
its now 6.12.24 , can i buy it or still wait ?
Given the costs of these modules, its totally unacceptable that people could loose that content. Its also unacceptable that the RAZBAM content is still available to buy given customers could loose that content.
Spud, Don't pull the F15E videos, as its still working as a module?
The Community has to put pressure on ED and Razbam to solve this, Videos like this help. What might also help is everyone who bought the F15E, AV8B, South Atlantic, MIG19 and South Atlantic Map asking ED for a refund! I am angry that they have not made a clear statement on this. It's frankly bad business practice.
If you ask for a refund, they will give you store credits, effectively converting the money they stole from Razbam into their own money that they likely legally own.
The "community" means nothing, like in every game. You bought a product, you have a product that you bought. The one you bought it from did not promiss you to keep your product updated for so-and-so long. You have your product already.
If you bought an unfinished product - that is then on your hands, because you decided to buy an unfinished product and a bunch of happy thoughts and promisses along with it.
So, the community cannot pressure anything. ED or Razbam can close their shops tomorrow and go on permanent vacation no questions asked, they do not owe anyone anything, and the "community" can make a selfie with the box of the products they bought.
Let's reflect back on the day when Falcon 4.0 was released. It was buggy, for 6 months we lived to see another update to fix the bugs.
Falcon 4.0 went till version 4.08 at which point MicroProse laid off all the DEVs and closed the franchize. So, when we bought Falcon 4.0, we had like 6 months of supported product - and that was with MicroProse, a big company that is alive and well even today.
Luckily someone stole the 4.07 version of the code and shared it, and Falcon 4.0 lives on to this day thanks to that Robin Hood, lol.
I 100% agree with the content of this video, with only one note: dcs is not the only one modern combat flight sim nowadays: there's falcon bms. I know it's a mod of a 90s software, but it has an accurate flight model, complex avionics, atc, dinamic campaign, and decent graphics (always improving, with VR too!).
BMS isn't a contemporary to DCS. It's a far cry content wise. Sure, you've got one real full fidelity module and a dynamic campaign, but DCS transcends multiple eras, has a booming MP scene, and far more content even without a dynamic campaign. The now booming cold war era in DCS is no where near flushed out in BMS. They aren't in the same ballpark IMO. I enjoyed BMS but it's even more sphegetti coded than DCS, and one foot is in the grave. A good dynamic campaign engine on the DCS side will seal the fate of BMS. For BMS to dethrone DCS, it has magnitudes of ground to make up.
@@hook86 bms is nowhere near with a foot on the grave: the developent goes on and there's aleady a full fidelity f-15c. It's still mainly a one type aircraft simulator (with multiple variants) but it's way more "military pilot simulator" than dcs. Not only the dinamic campaign but the atc, the ai, ground units logic and so on. Both the simulators have to add a lot of things to reach each other: bms all the aircrafts and dcs all the environment. DCS wins in multiplayer (and for helicopters), bms wins in single player. I love both and I'd be very sad if dcs shuts off, but an alternative exists.
@@hook86 DCS has never been more popular in actual simulation circles than BMS. Maybe for casual play, DCS is more popular.
Arguably it's DCS which has been trying to catch up to BMS for years and failed. The only thing they've resorted to doing lately is pump out as many modules as they can before the company fails and they bail. BMS in the meanwhile will likely keep developing indefinitely, with no real economical pressures.
@@ArchOfficial a description too much against dcs imho: the chance to use different full fidelity models in the same environment, with the possibility to build complex integrated missions online is a unicum, something bms won't be able to do for a long time to come. DCS has its problems (the free to play base game forces to develop and sell always new airplanes, with very long development times to see a module properly finished; the amount of bugs is high and the times for a fix are often too long) but it is a solid platform nevertheless. This Razbam issue is a hard blow for all the ecosystem, but it's up to Eagle Dynamics to minimize the damage, whatever the Razbam decision will be.
@@andrealioce4341 As a counterpoint, none of DCS's systems actually work, so you can't make something resembling a simulation mission in it. All you have is a bunch of different cockpits with different clickable and hotkey-able systems.
BMS has no issues with online play fundamentally apart from somewhat antiquated GUI. It's just harder to get into casual arena style scenarios online.
The irony is that if it hasn't been for RAZBAM, 2023 wouldn't have had any releases. Now, effectively, it didn't.
I love DCS, and I historically buy every module partly because I want such a cool project to live on. I wanted third party devs to know they have guaranteed sales for something that's so specialized. But the illusion I had that this bit of gaming seemed immune from all the other gaming BS out there has been shattered, and regardless of the outcome, that trust will not be returned. You don't want to give refunds? Fine. I have enough airplanes to learn for a lifetime already. I don't need to buy anymore either.
Same here.. but I did buy the Phantom on Pre-Sale before this Drama and don't regret getting it. I think ED will be closely monitoring the purchases especially during the next round of Summer Sales.
They're offering refunds for the F-15E now.
Appreciate the video, Spud. But, for those of us who have the module and don't plan to request refunds, I think tutorials from you and other developers should be kept online. You could just add a disclaimer at the beginning for the sake of new users that there are issues with Razbam and that they need to watch this video before buying the module. I love Razbam products and will still continue to use them. I just don't know, as DCS evolves, if there will be developing conflicts that stop the products from functioning.
If Razbam doesn't want to continue, perhaps they can sett all modules to another 3rd party.
This might seem stupid but just a thought i had. Why doesn't Razbam just sell the rights of their dcs modules to other module creators so that the current Razbam modules can be updated and such.
They wouldn’t be able to afford it.
imagine a Heatblur F-15E
@@doggogaming6895 tbh I can’t see it being any different other than having a jester. I’m not sure the radar simulation on the E can be matched. Also 4th gen planes won’t have as much character like the older generations because it’d all computerized.
So after having all of their profits being stolen by ED, you want them to also sell their IP?
@@doggogaming6895 with how they handled the f4 phantom it would be awesome
I was a Crew Chief on the might Strike Eagle IRL for 6 years @ Seymour Johnson, the E model's release was the ONLY reason I ever even started DCS. I waited years for the aircraft to be released. If the E model dies so does my support for DCS and I will uninstall the game and never come back!
Notso hasn't removed his videos yet, so I'm holding on to that glimmer of hope! 😅🙏🏾
@@redtailpilot I am to, but I am also at the point of not holding my breathe LOL
@@epidemik8385 Yeah I hear ya! I have been with ED from the beginning and bought several aircraft going all the way back to the original Blackshark release which had a Russian cockpit (then bought it again when it released with the English pit)! DCS has been my primary hobby outside of my real world flying and I have a LOT of money invested in it, including hardware (VR, motion rig, etc). So, unlike you, I'm not going anywhere regardless of how this turns out lol....BUT...I really hope this situation gets resolved and we get to enjoy our beloved Mudhen for years to come! It's actually my only Razbam product and has become my favorite jet since it's been out!!! I've hardly touched anything else. As you are a former crew chief, I can definitely understand and respect your sentiment 👍🏽
ACTUAL refunds, not just store credits. It's insane how Eagle Dynamics is now taking money away from Razbam and redistributing it through their own modules or other third parties.
Unless it's an actual refund, ED is laughing their asses off as they strip away any profits Razbam had and pocketing it for themselves..
Didn't ED's CEO basically get a bonus of a few million? This seems like a typical corruption case. ED is a Russian company, remember.
Do you know the whole story?
NO!
Are you a Razbam agend?
🤥
Why do you think ED would not pay them?
You have no idea!
Stop being foolish, there is a reason for that. You are here today because of a reason, right? Your momy + daddy = here we go you are commentig here and its fine, you got my point? If not, i can continue 🤣🤣🤣
Agree with all of this. A lot of very talented people have done a lot of hard work over a long time to make something special work, and the whole DCS franchise, with all the third party developers, have produced something amazing that pushes the boundaries of what is possible. What they have produced is incredible, and so popular, that I can not believe there isn't enough money to go around . I don't know what the dispute is about, but it does seem to me that things have come to a head since the shambles of the F15E release.
I appeal to the good folk at both Eagle Dynamics and Razbam to come to some sort of compromise for the sake of their many loyal and, up until now, happy, customers. I feel that this will benefit everybody in the long run. I hope that they are all in this for that long run.
Not dead yet…….. clickbait title.
If they aren't being updated regularly, and are NOT FUNCTIONING PROPERLY, then yes they are Dead until Scambam quits lying and just does the Work they agreed to do to the level the Contract THEY SIGNED requires; and then funnily enough, they will get paid, 🤡!
Aaaas always 😂
@@theAcel ROFL!
I hope everything will resolve, cannot imagine world without DCS and Razbam
What do u exactly mean by dead?
It can have many meanings..
I just hope it's about as dead as the PC... or VR... ^^
@@CakePrincessCelestia lol 💀
It means that the Razbaam modules dont breath anymore, they are only 3d model. This is how i understand it....
@@ProGamer-gc3wv lmfao agree
It means unflyable which it is cuz the radar doesn't work
What's wrong with the F15E, why is ED support missing? Why have some people been granted a refund and others not? What happens to my money invested in modules that no longer have support even though they are early access?
gotta ask twice to get a refund it seems, better be quick though
nothing is wrong with the 15 yet, Razbam isn't doing any(or much) work on the jet rn, the WHY is different depending who you talk to. Some people are getting refunds due to EU consumer law I believe. Not sure about the invested money but likely Razbam nor ED are gonna do anything about already invested cash
You don't have an investment. You paid for an agreement that grants you access to a piece of software that does not belong to you, and can be revoked at any time for any reason described in the ToS.
Welcome to digital goods ownership. Shit, even when games came on CD's, you were purchasing a license to use the product (and a case, manual and the physical CD-ROM).
Any way, how you can own something dont exist? Its a virtual thing, polygons made with program. If you delete it, its gone. Its not physical thing. Thats the only way. And the modules are in your PC, right? Worst case scenario, they would shut down company, serial code not working anymore.... hey we can crack that and continue using it 😂😂😂. Its like e-mail, a expensive 70 usd e-mail🤑
Lot of hate in the comments, not sure why. I for one appreciated this video; I think Spud is right, we are a small community of people who enjoy flight simulations, we shouldn't be at each others throats. Thanks Spud, I appreciate what you are doing and saying, keep up the good work!
I love the Mirage 2000c but lets be honest Razbam is not known for releasing finished or really good modules on launch. It often takes them years to get to a 80-90% complete status. Unlike Averges or Heatblur. I will give Razbam credit they are often the second best as far as detail in their modules systems.
The F-15e was in a much better EA release state than other modules have been. And steady updates after release, even for 8 months of not getting their sales money from it. I wonder where we would be without that going on in the background.
Well razbam was called raz scam at one point
Coming from a USAF F-15E crew chief, This amazing aircraft has proven its worth and deserves to live on. How come these other legendary aircraft such as the f-18 and f-14 get to keep living and the F-15E always keeps getting skipped over. No one will ever understand the power of the F-15E I have seen it and I have lived it! Shout out to all my amazing pilots who fly this absolute high maintenance beast.
Even if the futur is not certain, and certainly looking dark beetwin ED and Razbam...It can be good that if the community (including influencers) stop to abuse with affirmative title...We are not 100% sure yet if those modules are defenitivly dead. They still can find any kind of agreement, and if not any solutions to save something. This is not a game for the ppl behind. Clients, devs, subcontractors, and even ED. I think the DCS community is mature enought to don't play (and even generate) with drama and specullation.Thank you.
Nah, the devs of both teams can prove it wrong if that's how they feel, no time to entertain their nonsense
Appreciate what you do Spud. A Video that needed to be made. Only Eagle Dynamics can bring stability to this situation. Wish someone would throw money at them and let Wags be Wags.
Spud this is absolutely stupid. You have ZERO evidence of anything going on other than rumors and scuttlebutt! You guys are being drama queens and feeding negativity into this situation and NOT helping it in Any w=y! My gosh it’s only been a couple of months! Let these companies work it out and stop feeding drama into it! I expected better from you than this! Disappointing to say the least!
I think both sides are obligated to find a new road to coexisting, the damage to the DCS concept might suffer a major blow toi if they can't find a way to keep the modules alive then we as customers haave a legal claim, and we must be compensated. This is a very dark omen for ED and DCS.
Hate to say it, but you aren't legally entitled to shit. This is digital goods, you paid for a license to access the software as long as you abide by the ToS. The ToS, more than likely, does not have a clause granting you protection from defects in the software. As far as I'm aware, the only place that has consumer protections on defective digital goods is the EU. Even then, the EU directive doesn't seem to prohibit ED from offering refunds in the form of store credit. If you live in the US, good fucking luck.
We consumers like to think we have protections, but this is neo-liberal capitalism. Our consumer protections have been absolutely gutted over the years; the agencies meant to uphold what little protections remain are being defunded left, right and centre. We as a society love fighting tooth and nail on behalf of the people who fuck us over the worst.
I saw your video being deleted live on ED's discord channel!
They are going mad with censorship in there.
@@cmdrbigity6914 Just research rule 1.13 on ED and you'll find yourself facing a ginormous rabbit hole that actually has been real for quite a significant period of time.
It is a Russian company after all.
The fact that we’re all in this situation is 100% EDs responsibility. They have to ensure 3rd party devs keep maintaining their modules, when they fail that, they’re failing their contract with their costumers. They get a cut of every sale so this should never happen, even the doubt of modules failing should never be a thing.
That’s what I’m saying, and the fact this is an issue from last year is all ED’s fault
Who says it is dead? Any REAL proof?
It ain't dead until the Coroner, in this case Nick Grey, says " It's with deep regret, that today, due to a train wreck, we're sad to announce the death of the F15, along with it's siblings, the AV8B, The Mirage 2000, and the internment will take place in the South Atlantic, family donations are a bit of a sore point, so screenshots of your time together will help with the recovery process"
Link? @@keysersoze1855
Exactly. Another genius hot take from Spud. No wonder the guy’s got such a shaky reputation.
@keysersoze1855 or if Ron says it is dead. All these videos are just sensationalism to gather easy clicks.
It's just Spudknocker click-bait. Aaaaaaaaas always.
When they relased the F15 with almost no weapons and you compare it to the F4 release, well you can figure out how it would end.
I got the F-15 and asked for my money back I was not flying it anyway. I mean the strike eagle is a hell of a ride but coming from razbam it was going to be trouble.
so all these video "F15E is Dead" ecc are made in order to "Be louder" and maybe make our voice heard?
Not necessarily. The issue right now, is that the F-15E and other Razbam modules are still being sold despite not currently receiving any sort of maintenance. We don't necessarily know if this is permanent; given the information we have about the situation is needless to say, highly charged and emotional - not necessarily a safe source to base one's opinions on. Regardless though, continuing to sell modules, such as the M2K, without notifying the customers that they're (at the very least) temporarily not being maintained and are suffering game-breaking bugs, is the issue.
This is less so directed at the developers, who are obviously doing what they can behind the scenes to come to an amicable solution, and more so for the overall player-base who isn't in the weeds of DCS drama along with some of spud's personal anecdotes.
I have to assume, if it's true that Razbam simply haven't asked for their modules to be taken down yet, that some sort of solution is on the horizon, but that doesn't mean that the situation will be amended soon.
I just joined DCS a month ago, what is going on with this module? sorry but in the video (not knowing the background) i've no idea what you're talking about...
Opt out of DCS updates and keep your modules working until they solve this petty issue.... along with that is you do not buy another ED product until these issues are rectified.
Yep, I HAD wanted to jump on the OH-58D but I'm not doing it solely because of this RAZBAM issue. I got burned with KSP2 and now the F-15E and South Atlantic are uncertain. Holding off buying anything else for DCS until there is sufficient information to make more informed decisions.
@@shokwavxb Notice it's only Scambam that is claiming they didn't get paid though? That's what happens though when you don't meet your CONTRACTUAL OBLIGATIONS; YOU DON'T GET PAID!
@@ligmasack9038 easy there tiger don't state the obvious I don't think razbam is the squeaky clean party
You can call it dead after ED and Razbam have confirmed that razbam modules will not be further developed and maintained, not before. Currently this is 1. a clickbait title and 2. just stirs up uncertainty without you actually having any real or even useful info.
6:18 LOL! Gottem!
8:10 Understandable. But for me it sucks. I was just about to finally get myself into that thing (and the Phantom, ofc) and the best tutorial videos get pulled now for sensible reasons. I literally had like 2 or 3 take offs and landings each with that thing, have barely even mapped my controls and that was it. When it dropped, VR performance was literally uncredibly horriful at least for me, so I took a break from DCS and the hype around the Phantom release kinda brought me back for another shot - to this. It genuinely sucks.
9:17 Well said. This^
Let me see if I can sum this up for all, but I will say I hope somehow it works out. Anything you pay for in advance may not be delivered, because the pay is the incentive to deliver. Once you get paid the incentive is no longer as attractive because the initial release was where the money was. I will give HeatBlur and Polychop credit for releasing as close to complete modules as they could. The lesson to learn from this is be wary of incomplete products if the seller demands full price up front. Anyone who has ever hired a contractor should know this.
The inevitable end of this mess is either reconciliation, or a class action lawsuit. Blame is getting slung and the big egos at ED and at Razbam need to get their collective heads out of their collective backsides before some of us older sophisticated users start talking to our class action lawyers....
This is clickbait hands down there is no evidence that the F15 is dead. Your videos have been less and less useful to the community. I have unsubscribed to your channel and I ask all others from the community to do the same.
You re right with the statement that dcs has no contemporaries, as bms is much more advanced, we can't compare each other.
It isn’t dead for people who don’t play multiplayer. Just launch the DCS exe that doesn’t run the updates and you’ll have the F15E as long as you want
As long as you want - if you want to stay on the current DCS version forever that is. I am going to assume that is not many of us.
It’s not dead and none of RB’s modules are being removed by the updater.
@@joshcochran2217 watch the video, with each update there is a chance for something to break. The mirage 2000 has already shown this
switching back to Falcon BMS!
05:30 imo.. if the source code is taken over under contract stipulations. It will be slow to come, but the F15E and others will come back online. We will know this has happened when we get a patch that shows ED updated the modual.. followed by an announcement that RB and ED have officially parted ways but that RB's currently release modules will again be serviced.. albeit at a slower rate due to work load on devs and their priorities.
Why make this video? If there was an official statement that razbam is done.....you didnt reference it once. Next time you dont want to make a video might be better to just not make it unless its an official statement of more meaning than im not happy about this. Theres really nothing in this video
I have been playing in dcs 10 for over 10 years, I think that RASBAM should continue its activities. The most player-friendly company available in DCS. There should be no pressure on this company because basically the guys from RAZBAM are making UFO technology for us and it is probably difficult for them to program such intelligent avionics for all of us. Jealousy or greed?
DCS huey with badly programmed wrong size of objects (scale) and virtual soldiers who don't die when you shoot them from an on-board minigan for 10 minutes in the campaign by the Belarusian BELSIMTEK is probably not better. Although the F15C is quite good by the BELSIMTEK .
I quit playing DCS around the 15E's release date and now I randomly see this video in my feed.
Quite a lot seems to have happened since then, but my original concerns about DCS's buisness model are rearing their ugly heads again, unfortunately.
I quit because many of my favorite modules were accumulating bugs and "balance changes" that made them less and less playable as time went on. Huey lost the ability to change seats and control your other crew. R-27s couldn't regain lock after seeing a single chaff particle (intentional change). F-15C folds like paper at 10Gs, while the F-16 got the ability to pull -6Gs or so in the same update (both intentional). Ka-50 3 can't fire rockets without being above 50kph (intentional, but badly implemented).
I'm sure many of these complaints are outdated, forgotten, or accepted as normal now but they made me realize that modules I buy won't be what I own in the future.
About Huey - It depends whenever you use it as single user or the multi-crew version. This is set in the mission editor.
huey is set in the Mission editor, F-15 and F-16 change are just realistic and my R-27's still seem totaly fine to use... u sure the ER also didnt lock back on? (since it has midflight Datalink)
Thank you for your thoughts. I hope you are wrong that these airframes are dead and hope you are right for a joint statement that they are working together to resolve the issue for all involved.
@Spudknocker how did you become a Pilot?
❤ its my dream to become one
Hey man, its a long process full of hardwork, I would be happy to chat with you about it on my discord, send me a PM!
@@Spudknocker so... does you (and other youtuber's) delisting your tutorials mean you're all siding with ED, or with RAZBAM? i dont understand. btw i used to practice eating crayons occasionally so i have a dog in this race too. i read a blog thing but i cant see which way the gamers are leaning...
@joejoe2658 we don't know a full story. Just sit back and watch. I would head to the dcs subreddit if you want some info on what's going on
@@joejoe2658 Scambam just living up to it's Moniker, and trying to "pass the Buck" for their failure to meet Contractual Obligations to get paid.
@@hurrikage09 thanks, but spud was very clear/adamant about removing eagle videos. i ask anyone again, why are dcs channels even doing that, if no one knows enough to "take sides"? im guessing they don't want to glamorise a module that noobs might then go and purchase?
F15E is the most enjoyment in DCS it’s what got me playing as a newcomer. It’s an absolute shame that both parties haven’t come out with official statement. Even with its unfinished state it’s an amazing plane to fly. But I feel as a relative outsider, DCS needs to get their shit together, late releases, outdated coding in the game. In the world of amazing game engines it will be left behind.
Well there goes all of RB modules
Mirage 2000 was my favorite
@@jimhansen1245 for me it was the harrier
None of the RB modules have gone anywhere. This is just clickbait to stir up drama at this point. Nobody knows how this is going to work out and anyone who says otherwise is just looking for attention.
@@joshcochran2217 well spud I trust
@@joshcochran2217 I’m still on the fence at a. Good 50/50 I’ll wait and see
i was getting ready to buy this module and I happened to come across this video by chance. Thank you
Hang on, have I missed something? Modules are still available for sale? Where is this announcement that it's dead? Are we not jumping the gun?
Mirage is already breaking
No updates = terminal status
For all we know next patch the f-15 will crash on boot
Spoiler alert - everyone *is* jumping the gun. Nothing is dead yet, the clickbait here and the broad assumptions being made are very frustrating. Calling Razbam modules dead when literally a few days ago a bug was fixed with the M2000 is something. Yes to be fair, it probably shouldn't have even happened in the first place but that's besides the point - no one except those specifically involved in the dispute knows the full extent of the issues. As Spud even said himself, we have one side that's not commenting publicly aside from their initial statement and the other that has not only made a few emotionally charged statements to the public, but also has employees and volunteers that likely don't know the specifics making comments too, some of which don't have actual proof behind them (or if they do, they aren't sharing it). All that's happening now is mudslinging on either side when in reality, this has to be settled through legal avenues. I absolutely think this situation is very frustrating as well but this video ain't it in my view.
I am waiting for this plane very patiently and I would really like the difficult situation with this module to finally end. ED, Razbam - I'm counting on you guys to come to an agreement.
They're not dead, they're more akin to being in a coma, of which there's still a chance of recovery.
ED does not have the source code of Razbam modules
You know Spud, the "E" is my favorite aircraft of all time. It's so sad to see it dies like this. I was not even touching it anymore, so sad that I am with the state of affairs. But, you know, seeing all the beautiful images, the music...it made me want to fly it again. And again. Even if it breaks, I will fly it to the sunset. I won't ask for a refund. Just because I love this bird so much. And, I will keep a copy of Razbam modules files in some other place, just in case in the future, the community gets together and we have a BMS like revival of these modules. I believe that the community can and will do a great job on them if giving the chance.
Dude stop baiting for views
That’ll never happen, it’s spud your talking about
hopium
Its his job, do you want to pay his bills? 🤣🤣🤣🤣 all cheeters
@@ProGamer-gc3wv RUclips is not paying any DCS content creators bills
Dramatic video...tf
Is not dead yet just unresolved
ED needs to give a statement
Taking down tutorial videos is a childish move. It does nothing alienate potential new gamers, and further drives the stake into the heart of the F15E and DCS as a whole. Shame on you.
This game just became food for youtubers and a nightmare for the casual player. And a lot of people still falls for it because of the pretty gameplays that some people still put on. Pretty graphics, lots of clickable planes, but at the cost of what? Lots of unfinished material, poor optimization, terrible AI (inherited from the original game from 2003) and lack of single player content (most of it ripped off from lomac). Falcon BMS is a hundred times superior in many aspects, even after all this years.
Im just saying: dont buy anything from this game, try it out for free and if you still want to buy something, buy the original ED modules like Ka-50 or A-10, because those at least are almost finished and stable. The rest is just unfinished stuff with lots of bugs, a cashgrab to keep the company afloat.