As a pre-mill guy....i thought Jeff's arguement saying "the end of days" does not mean end of the world but means the end of the old covenant was quite a compelling argument.
@@SundancerrMusicI always understand that we are in the end of the same age that the old covenant was given under. Covenant and age not being synonymous
@@SundancerrMusic thats a good one. But i wonder, just speculating. Does "this age" and "last days" or "end of days" mean the same thing or different? Meaning could the "last days" Jeff was talking about mean the end of those days of the old covenant while the "this age" as per the Luke scripture you gave mean this physical age then the one to come in heaven? Just wondering.
I have been binge watching pastor Jeff Durbin's videos recently. I was raised premillenial and currently attend a church that holds to that view. I am now reconsidering. The arguments for the postmillenial view are very strong. I have also been reading through revelation daily, and it does seem to fit the postmillenial view. Like pastor Jeff said, you have to set aside your own preconceived notions, and what you've been taught and let the text speak for itself.
I definitely respect Jeff but disagree with him completely. I did what Jeff said I set aside my preconceived notions and at best I came to a post trib partial preterist pre mil. I heard Jeff and Rc Sproul make the argument that Nero is the fulfillment of 2 thessalonians 2. I think the dispensational interpretation of that passage is erroneous but the preterist interpretation is too. Did Nero attend church? Was he a miracle worker?
@nikolascook The funny thing about Nero is that he died the year before the sacking of Jerusalem and had no connection to the event Post-Millennialists keep pointing to as the abomination of desolation so it’s impossible for him to have been the fulfillment of that prophecy to begin with.
@yourstrulytreasurepoetic Don’t just read Revelation by itself, read Daniel, Matthew 24-25 and 1st and 2nd Thessalonians as they are all partial revelations of the same event each giving clearer context and details, Jesus himself references Daniel in Matthew 24, do not all Jeff’s clever distortion of Scripture to mislead you he is knowingly twisting Scripture to support his own viewpoint.
@travisparks9289 I have read the entire Bible at least 3 times. Recently, I've been going through and reading the New Testament in its entirety. I don't believe that Pastor Jeff is distorting scripture at all, but if that's your opinion, that fine. However, even if you believe him to be in error, this isn't something Christians should divide over since it's not a salvation issue. At the end of the day, only God truly knows which interpretation is correct, and as long as the end result is that I get to be in His presence for all eternity and worship Him that's all that matters. I appreciate your comment, though, and I thank you for it. I think these things are interesting to discuss amongst believers, and I love to study the word of God. I will take your suggestion and read the books you recommended together. However, I don't think it will change my perspective. God bless!
This was excellent! Thank you for having this discussion. I was pre millennial, but now post millennial through my studying and allowing God show me through scripture interpreting scripture. The peace and joy that passes all understanding is growing within me to share with others.
Those who hold to postmillennialism believe that this world will become better and better (even though it certainly doesn't look like it is) with the entire world eventually becoming “Christianized.” After this happens, Christ will return. However, this is not the view of the world in the end times that Scripture presents. From the book of Revelation, it is easy to see that the world will be a terrible place during that future time. Also, in 2nd Timothy 3:1-5 it says, “There will be terrible times in the LAST days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God." IF Christians and thereby Christ were reigning, do we really think we would have over a billion Muslims, who view Jesus as a prophet right below Mohamad, a billion Buddhists, who believe Jesus was an enlightened person, a billion Hindus, who believe Jesus studied yoga and became a guru to the Jews, a billion Catholics who are entrusting their souls to Mary at the hour of their death, a billion atheists, the LGBTQ running rampant, TV shows and movies, that continually blaspheme God and His Christ, drinking, drugs, and colleges that have become propaganda mills that promote Godless, Big-bang theology and Darwinian Evolution, human trafficking, and a host of other sinful deeds that will be eliminated during the reign of Jesus Christ, our Holy God. This is a good example of eisegesis; reading pre-conceived ideas into the text, rather than simply reading what the text is clearly stating.
1 Cor 15 teaches that Christ must reign until He has made His enemies a footstool under His feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. We’re also told in that passage that death (the last enemy) is swallowed up in victory at the last trumpet when the dead in Christ are raised imperishable, not 1000 years after that. That passage is 2 Timothy is a common objection to postmillennialism. My question is: the last days of what? Timothy is told to avoid those people. The book of revelation is the most symbolic book in the bible and isn’t meant to be taken completely literal. We can’t read something in there literal then say it must be a future tribulation because there haven’t been fire breathing prophets or stars falling from the sky yet. John tells his original audience that he is their brother and companion in the tribulation. He makes it clear the tribulation is soon to take place, the time is near, the time is at hand. Daniel was told to seal up the words of his prophesy but John was told NOT to seal up the words of his prophesy for the time is at hand.
@@joshjay6765Revelation is the only book with a warning and a promise. The warning is do not add or take away from this book of prophecy the plagues mentioned will be added to him. (Rev 18). Also a promise of blessing to those who read and understand it. To not take it as mostly literal to me looks pretty dangerous. Are there obvious illusions, sure. But, a lot of it is pretty specific and not something that could’ve happened 2000 years ago.
@@CountCulture27 postmillennialists don’t add or take away from revelation. We just take it symbolic because it is the most symbolic book in the bible, not meant to be read literal. The book of revelation is clear the tribulation will soon take place, the time is near, the time is at hand, etc. When Jesus prophesied the tribulation He said “this generation will by no means pass away before all these things take place.”
Great thing about discussions like this, is we all still worship Jesus Christ and He is the only salvation. but just disagree with some things among ourselves.
I like how post mill is very optimistic. I don’t see post mill at all when I read the scriptures and don’t know how anyone can see post mill in faithful interpretation but hey what the heck do I know…
Rapture is going to happen when the Anti-Christ will be revealed to the world, before his reign on all earth. He will become a worldwide leader and worshiped as a Messiah to the falling world we are living. After his 7 years of reign, Jesus with His saints will come again (2nd time ON EARTH) and beat him and his army gathered against Jesus in the battle of Armageddon...
I really like the following 2 verses. 👉 “For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.” Colossians 1:19-20 .
Wow I loved this video. Definitely a post millennialist now. I held the pre because that's what I was brought up on. When something makes perfect sense. You can't just deny it or overlook it because it makes you uncomfortable. This view makes so many things make sense. I don't want to even call it a view i'd say it's the truth.
The earliest spiritual descendants of the apostles (Papias, Polycarp, etc.) were all historical futurist premillennial in their understanding of eschatology. I would love to hear Jeff or Joel’s rebuttal to this fact and how they reconcile their eschatological system in light of this.
@ whodeytko Jesus described his coming with women grinding at the mill . Matthew 24 In the days of Papias and Polycarp , this activity was certainly still going on . But it is obvious that it cannot point to our modern days at all. So , it HAD to take place in antiquity , during their generation if we take Jesus at his words.
So you think that the practice of grinding at a mill was only preformed in antiquity? You must be joking or only have a amero-centric perspective or be young. Thoroughly flawed perspective no matter the case and extremely weak reasoning and logic for the argument you claim.
@@nickboles9649 I'm not American at all ! i'm European.And it's not because YOU don't believe what Jesus said and does want to take him at his words than my reasoning is weak. Have you ever seen your grandmother making grain into flour with a handmill ? Job referred to the hand mill talking about his own wife. Job , the oldest book in the Bible !! And as Jesus perfectly described , this was a WOMAN's activity. And there were often two women (as he said , one taken , the other left) doing that. Proud arrogant futurists don't care about what is written but those who take Jesus at his words are humble enough to believe without seeing anything. They have changed the meaning of the words that bother them like soon , near , at hand , shortly etc... saying that they don't mean what they do. So , what do they mean ? Nothing. If Jesus said "this generation" would see the signs of the Son of man coming on the clouds , then they saw it. Or Jesus is a liar. He lied to them , he deceived them but proud futurists speak truth. They have even gone as far as to say that the apostles had misunderstood Jesus because they firmly believed that he would come in their time ! The apostles who saw Jesus , who were with him , who benefited from his teachings would have got it all wrong but WE would know it all ?!! You see how arrogant futurists can be ? And since your reasoning is not as weak as mine , please find one great city in that modern world where the sound of the MILLSTONE shall not be heard again at its fall (Revelation 18:22) ! Paris ? London ? New York ? Tokyo ? Berlin ? A great city with millstones and with the blood of the prophets , of the apostles and of the witnesses of Jesus on its hands... Good luck finding such a thing in our current era ! lukechandler.wordpress.com/2014/06/27/an-ancient-grinding-stone-perfectly-designed-for-a-womans-hand/
It's not a matter, really, of what certain men believed, it's what does the Word of God actually say! I grew up, as most modern American Christians do, as a Pre-Mil, Pre-Rapture, Futurist and after studying the Word I had to take the position that Jesus was speaking directly to those people in that generation (Matt 24), not future generations and there is no way to get around that fact.
Same background as Jeff. Then listening to Doug Wilson, Gary Demar, others that takes these scriptures click into place whereas before those scriptures kinda leaves one hanging .. great discussion! Thank you!
If you’re struggling with planting your feet on this matter and you’re scanning the comments, it’s probably not the best idea. I don’t say this to discourage you whatsoever, but since you’re struggling, I want you to really do your research; more so than diving into a comment thread. Grace and peace be with you
I am listening, have looked back through all of the Scripture references presented. I have not changed my position. Jeff and others that share this view...fine. no need to break fellowship. There are positions, I personally think his interpretation is the problem. I am not here to cause division, or to debate. I do enjoy learning other interpretation. It keeps me challenged to stay in the word studying myself. Ultimately I want to be a Berean,, and test any teaching against the Scripture, understanding than anyone can use the Scripture to take you on a journey that may not be the correct path or conclusion. In my opinion, his opinion in eschatology is incoherent. I do notice he downplays prophecy, by "highly symbolic". I agree Revelation is highly symbolic as it uses Symbolism to tell of future events.
I have tried to listen to this view of eschatology a number of times now, and to me, there is no compelling argument to persuade me to change my view. It seems to me that the entire book of Revelation is treated as just symbolic, nothing to see here and is generally dismissed as already taken place. There are some very cataclysmic events outlined that I can't see as having ever happened in history, and I've yet to hear a post-mil explanation for it. At the same time, this world has been in a downward spiral for the entirety of my life, and that's the whole world, not just America, I haven't been witness to it getting better over time. Things seem to be falling into place to fit the pre-mil position on a day by day basis, in my opinion.
@@rickpenner7860 yes, I agree with you. This is the position, that the Scripture supports. As I read and study, the Pre-Mil fits best what Scripture says. I agree the cataclysmic events spoken of, just don't have historical fulfillment. I see in Scripture, prophecy has always been literally fulfilled. It makes no sense to me to read future prophecy as "symbolic" or just "analogy".
I love your ministry. I am a silver pier patreon member, I just signed up to be a member of the online ministry I look forward to the book, and I am now a post millennialist. Keep up God's assignment for you. It is truly appreciated. May God watch over and bless your loved ones, ministry members, friends and you 🙏❤️
Amen Jeff, exactly what I have been saying. The Disciples in Jerusalem understood there was a major real estate crash in THEIR near future. When I read "the end times" the Holy Spirit started whispering to my mind, "the end of what?".
Post-trib pre-wrath rapture here. I’m premillennial, but listening to Pastor Joel has piqued my curiosity and I’m diving back into eschatology again to revisit my understanding.
Matt trewhella has an excellent expository sermon on the mt olivet discourse that would challenge any pre-mil believer. It’s what broke me of my pre-mil beliefs. I would link to it, but YT doesn’t allow external linking. It’s on sermon audio titled “An Exegetical Eschatology - The Mt. Olivet Discourse”
Revelation 20 is the killer for me. It clearly says that Christ’s return happens, then the resurrection, and then the millennium. If we’re in the millennium now, then postmil and amil would have to say that Christ has already returned and the resurrection of the righteous is already complete, but that is anti Christian heresy. I have yet to hear a convincing explanation for how they get around that
@cosmictreason2242 I'm premil, pre-wrath. Acts 1:11 presents problems as well as the book of Zechariah. The nation of Israel hasn't repented on a national level. Jesus hasn't LITERALLY returned, in the flesh. While I respect postmil teachers and ministries, they are off-point on this aspect of eschatology. Granted there are numerous abuses that have occurred with Premil teachers.
@@cosmictreason2242The Blessed Hope IS a hopeful eschatology. I'm not certain where Postmil brothers have cone up with a notion that there's is an eschatology of hope and other viewpoints aren't?
What do you do about Zechariah 12:10? Israel has not EVER experienced repentance on a national level. Jews, religious Jews, are either in unbelief or are still looking for their promised Messiah.
Same here, hated how as a premil there was little to no hope for my kids and now that my perspective has changed my future plans are completely different.
I was never taught Rapture of any kind...our little church taught and preached about God's Love, Mercy and Grace. Salvation was front and center and living the Christian life..never anything on escaping the End of Days Trials and Tribulation by being Caught Up in a Rapture...❤
that much is evident, rapture doesn't mean escaping. It is the coming of the Lord and our gathering to him, it is the pre-tribulational rapture that involves an escape from the tribulation, which I agree is unbiblical.
It's interesting how we all have different paths in our thinking. I was raised post. I prayed one day for clarity and I came to find dispensational premillenialism. In my eyes, that made the book make more sense than it ever had before.
The Kingdom is here Spiritually in the hearts of believers. The Kingdom is coming physically on earth from Israel when they look on Him whom they pierced. If the full Kingdom was here now, why would Jesus teach us to pray "Your Kingdom come".
He taught His disciples how to pray. It was for His disciples. Read it in context. At the resurrection, and upon Jesus’ ascension He sat down at the right hand of the Father in His kingdom. He’s on His throne now, and forever. Amen
@@dkjazzzNope. Sorry. When Gabriel told Mary that her son (Jesus) would sit on the throne of his father David, how do you think Mary took that? Do you think she thought, "Oh great! That means that my son will spiritually sit on a spiritual throne of our spiritual hearts and rule spiritually!"? Or, as a first century Jew, do you think that she thought, "Wonderful! My son will rebuild the Kingdom of Israel, as God promised in the prophets, and rule the world (since Israel will become the center and head of the kingdoms as of the world, as God promised in the prophets), from the Davidic throne in Jerusalem, in fulfillment of God's covenant with both Abraham and David!"? I guarantee you it was the latter. Amillenialism and Post-Millennialism make God a liar, a deceiver, and a covenant-breaker. I'd be VERY careful about embracing such things.
@@stormhawk31 It doesn’t matter what Mary thought 🙄 The fact is that’s exactly why He came. And He resurrected He did ascend to His Kingdom. He is ruling for ever, and the “enemy” the dragon is defeated
@@dkjazzz WRONG. It DOES matter what Mary thought. Gabriel came to deliver a message to her FROM GOD. Are you saying that GOD lied? That Gabriel lied? Part of proper hermeneutics is interpreting the Bible in light of how the original audience would've understood what was being said. And Mary, as a first century Jew, would have understood EXACTLY what Gabriel meant when he talked about "the throne of His father David". She would've understood that Gabriel was telling her that her son would fulfill the Old Testament prophecies, including Amos 9, about the Messiah's restoration of the Davidic Kingdom and reigning on earth from David's throne, FOREVER. Furthermore, EVERYONE else who heard about what Gabriel said to Mary would've taken it the same way. And the disciples ALL had the SAME expectation. Acts 1:6 - 7, the disciples ask Jesus if he's AT THIS TIME going to RESTORE the Kingdom TO ISRAEL. Did Jesus tell them, "No, you idiots! Didn't you understand? There's NO MORE KINGDOM!"? No. He told them that it wasn't their business WHEN God would restore the Kingdom to Israel, implying that it wasn't going to happen NOW, but it WOULD happen at some later point. EVERYONE in the early church, ALL of which was Jewish until Cornelius, expected the same thing. And when the apostles went and spread the message of the gospel, that was part of what they taught THEIR disciples. And THAT'S why, when you get to the Thessalonian letters, you see that, even though Paul only had about three weeks with the Thessalonians, he taught them eschatology. HE EXPECTED THE LORD TO RETURN AND RESTORE THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL. And universally, until the time of Origen and, especially, Augustine, that's what the ENTIRE Church thought. It only really changed when the Church became anti-Semitic.
Thank you Joel for mentioning the cessationist + futurist inconsistency...I've been aware of this lack of scriptural rigor for some time now and haven't heard it addressed much
It's been two thousand years. Has the spiritual life of mankind gotten better or worse since Jesus left to sit at the Father's right hand? I just don't see it having gotten better at all. God bless you guys. Really appreciate this channel ❤
It's gotten much better. Christians in many places around the world are allowed to worship openly without penalty of death. The gospel is literally preached all over the world as well and you and I can watch edifying videos on RUclips on demand. As to the wickedness of the world, there is nothing new under the sun. Society has done much worse in the past than what we see today. Transgenderism, homosexuality, murder, ect., have all happened in the past and will continue to happen. Read Fox's Book of Martyrs and then compare it to how we are today. There is no comparison. We are spoiled in every way compared to Christians of the past.
The spiritual life of mankind was never gonna get better. But the state of the world certainly has. People just panic as we are more informed about what is going on worldwide. Imagine if 1st century news was broadcasted worldwide. We would pretty uniformly agree the world is better now.
@@simonwills540you only think it has been better because of genuine ignorance. From 1914 up to today over 100 million have died because of war, famine and social strife. Only Americans can say that everything has been so much better. You have a very American centric view.
I'm full preterist but love watching Jeff's show. I appreciate most how he is not afraid to speak to people who have different theologies and call them names because they have a different understanding. I guess Dispensational is about as dirty as he gets 😂. I also appreciate how he presents information but is not trying to sell you on his ideas. Nor proclaim his way is the right way. We can learn a lot from the early theologians and doctrines. In the end it is uo to God's people to individually understand what God expects from his people and how to translate that into everyday life. ❤
Jeff Durbin was a big influence in me becoming postmill. For anyone interested, I’d also recommend reading or listening to Kenneth Gentry, RC Sproul, Doug Wilson, and Gary DeMar.
Jesus said plainly the time is coming when you will not worship in jerusalem...he said the temple will be torn down...and the TRUE worshipers will woragip God in Spirot and in Truth..not in jerusalem not in a temple made by man..
@@xanderbarr1983 true but we’re talking about end times. Read the book of Daniel Chapter 7 through 12 there will be a rebuilding of the temple the third time. Daniel is about the “latter times”
@@rockkstah2550 yes,the latter times of the jewish covenant, we are in the new covenant...i see it differentltly,, it sounds as if you believe the state of israel should rule the world..i believe the state of israel is the false resurection warned about in revelation..all the world will worship because they rejected the gospel...the image they build will be in jerusalem...ijust a different view..jesus said i am the resurection.. But most preachers ive listened to my whole life have said the resurection of the state of israel is the biggest miracle in our generations..and for everyone to watch jerusalem because thats where all prophecy points...i just see it as a great deception to draw men back to jerusalem and away from our resurected lord...jesus is reigning...all power in heaven and earth has been given to him,, so go preach and teach the kingdom of God and baptise all nations in the name of Jesus.. he didnt say go build another temple, tjays religious men without the holy spirit reading the bible and trying to make it happen..daniel said the sacrifices will cease....they did...and now the new covenant is preached...if the sacrificss begin again it is blasphemy against everything Jesus did on the cross..jesus offered his blood for the remission of sins for all time..the. ail of the temple in jerusalem was torn feom top to the bottom when jesus died...they offered sacrifices for 40 years in vain....the 12 apostles preached to the 12 tribes untill the temple was destroyed, the temple was destroyed, the old priesthood was destroyed andd all the priests and the higj priest was killed...we are in the new covenant..daniel has been fulfilled. ....in my opinion..
(Zechariah 14:16 KJV) And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. (Zechariah 14:17 KJV) And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
If youre here on earth and you are a true follower of Christ the promises do come true. Because God protects us. He blesses us. I know i have experienced it. Once living in the chains of addiction. Once God broke me free of these demons. I have started being blessed in so many ways. In the AA program we have promises that God fulfills with each step we complete of the 12 steps. Wow as i write this the gentleman spoke on once Jesus ex spells the demons the kingdom of Heaven is upon you. Yes!!!! Because i had demons till the 12 steps. Which are God inspired. Now im living my best life. Wow this hit me so hard im crying. Thank you
It is important to realize what John the Baptist meant by the kingdom. Where would he get the idea of the kingdom and its characteristics? From the OT. The OT describes a kingdom where there is a supernatural temple, where the animal life lives in harmony, where the nations will go up to Jesusalem to celebrate Succot and much more. This is what he was expecting. Swords into plowshares.
Appreciate this conversation as this is something I struggle with as a calvinist. What do you do with the millennial temple mentioned in Ezekiel? The sacrifices described there? I don't think you can spiritualize that. That's one of my main hangups. Also, why start the conversation with discouraging people from reading Revelation by making it seem like it's too difficult to understand. I think that's part of the whole council of God and we need to encourage people to read it, matter of fact God promises a blessing to those who read and understand it. God means what he says and says what he means.
Your line of questioning us good. I do the same thing I do with all the old testament prophecies... They were literal. Jesus fulfilled them all. Literally. So why would it be different for new testament prophecy? The answer is simple and obvious. It isn't different. They are literal and an OBVIOUS way to tell as an example is Israel existing once again. I guess we're supposed to believe that's just symbolic though? 😂
I didn't hear any discouragement from Reading Revelation. In fact Durbin says he read it over and over again and that it led him to his current view. He says that it's hard to understand, but so does everyone. What passage of Ezekiel are you speaking about, specifically?
@@loganholdaway769The way he approaches the conversation about the book makes people feel it's not important. Just what I'm observing. The passage is Ezekiel 40-44. The measuring of the temple.
I agree 100 percent. JESUS blessed my life with understanding and heeding the warnings in revelation as soon as I was born again. There are so many miracles in my life that prove to me that revelation is definitely Literal, it is also metaphorical at the same time.
Jeff didn't encourage anyone not to read Revelation. He was encouraging us to take it as being very symbolic rather than more clear and literal. He doesn't want Revelation ignored, but he also doesn't want a plain reading of Revelation to get in the way of his systematic. Keep questioning and keep studying. If you study enough, you might even rid yourself of that calvinism.
I love Brother Jeff and many many of the things that he teaches I agree with but on this subject, He is incorrect. We are living in prophetic times and in the last days. The Bible tells it very clearly and Jesus will rule for eternity
As others have stated, I also appreciate his views as they challenge me to study and stay sharp. There are a number of reasons that I cannot get behind post millenialism. #1 many of my life experiences make very clear that the book of revelation is definitely not "only" symbolic. The Millennial kingdom is an enormous Golden city that Jesus creates and it comes down from the sky. Before I knew anything about the Bible God gave me many prophetic visions of what it to come and the main one was this Megalithic crystal city of light that would be on the earth. That's not a metaphor. Jesus comes through the east gate, this hasn't happened yet. There are many others but one that is personal to me is that before I was born again I had a girlfriend who was reading the necronomicon with me. I had no idea what it was but it was causing an enormous amount of supernatural phenomena. It was opening celestial gateways as we would read it and poltergeist like stuff was happening. It culminated one night when she had me hold my breath as she hugged me and I felt a pop above my head. All of a sudden we both could sense something flying over head. Over the course of a minute it became very clear to both of us in our minds eyes and it even began to physically manifest and create visual distortions like the invisibility cloak of the predator movie. Anyway both of us clearlt saw that this demonic entity that was the size of a 747 had the body of a leopard, the talons of an eagle, the wings of an eagle, it had a weird human man head with long blonde hair it had the legs of a lion and a bear if ai remember correctly. It also had armor on and most importantly a scorpion tail. It began to attack us and it eventually stung my ex gf in the heart and she dropped to the floor and was unconscious for 30 minutes. It took me 11 years to figure out that this was the locusts fron the abyss spoken about in revelation. My point is, revelation is definitely literal in many aspects.
Thanks for this talk and please keep it up. Growing up in a pre millennial church I was deathly scared of the end times. I was tempted to look for gaults gulch and wait for the rapture.
And humanely one got reason to be scared. But things getting worse and false hope being offered, actually affirms what Jesus and the Apostles were saying.
@@metapolitikgedanken612 The BIBLE says that Jesus was manifest in the end of times. It is what is written ! The "end of times" was the days of the apostles. Not our days ! " Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world , but was manifest in these last times for you" 1 Peter 1:20 The last days , the end times were in the first century !
@@framboise595 That's a creative reinterpretation of eschatology... playing with the term "End Times"... When it says that this gospel has first to be preached to all nations. Then it is def. not talking about the first 100 years of the resurrection.
@@metapolitikgedanken612 What ? What do you mean ? I'm not reinterpreting anything. I'm just saying what they said. They said that they were in the last days , in the "end times". Did they lie ? Were they deceived ? So , if they were , we can throw all their epistles in the bin. The Bible clearly says that Jesus was born in the flesh in the last days . It's not me. I'm not making that up. The last days were their generation as Jesus clearly said. It makes perfect sense .
@@framboise595 The last days of what? They didn't suggest that Christ's return was immanent. Or that they had approached a stage where that could happen.
Trying not to text a book here, however: Thanks for the discussion, though i am still very much a "premillinial rapture" believer. The verses and views presented could most easily be twisted or bent in either direction. Nothing presented was very solid for defending post-millennialism. Many verses and ideas were left out that support premillinialism. Just a couple points to be made: The false profit and the beast were cast into the lake of fire and Satan was chained for a thousand years. Daniel speaks of 70 weeks of years focusing on Israel and not the church. Those aren't finished , there is still one more week left to be dealt with before Jesus' mellinial reign - that you say we're currently already in. When did the 144,000 male jews prophesy? When were the two prophets killed and left in the street for 3.5 days? When do the sheep and goat judgments take place? When did the abomination of desolation happen again.? Do children lay down with the lions right now? And i don't mean inside the lions stomach. When did the world almost destroy all living flesh? As per Mark 13:20 “Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days. The dry bones prophesies of Ezekiel speak of bringing the Jews back from the diaspora, four corners of the Earth in the last days. We all know that happened in 1948. This is most certainly before the millennium not during. In the millennium Jesus rules with an iron rod, However he's not doing so well, things are as bad or worse than any other time in mans history. You think Jesus woukd have things in a littke bit more order. Stephen, the first martyr gave the pharisees a dying testimony of how the jews kept blowing it. The first time they always get it wrong but the second time they get it right. Ie., The first time Jesus came he came as a lamb to the slaughter and the jews got it wrong and rejected him. They thought he was going to establish his earthly kingdom. But the second time he comes he comes as a lion and after the jewish nation calls on Jesus (whom they will now have realized was their messiah, their savior) he fullfills daniels 70th week prophesies and defeats his enemies, coming as a conqueror and does establish his EARTHLY 1000 year kingdom. As the old jewish customs of marriage and weddings go, the church is the bride of Christ. The Father tells the son when to get his bride. Nobody, not even the son knows the day or the hour. If we are already ruling with Christ in his melinnium when did Jesus gather the bride? When and where did we have our marriage supper (wedding celebration). When was the church caught up or gathered? No one knows the day or the hour. The bridesmaids were told to have their wicks trimmed and to be ready, lest they be left behind. Ready for what if we're alreading enjoying the mellinial reign of Christ? Jesus hasn't come back yet he stands at the right hand of the Father. He is not yet reigning on Davids throne. He told the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise" not "today you will be with me as i reign for a thousand years on David's throne" And btw, its already been two thousand years since Jesus rose, how do you know when this "mellinial" reign began or when it will finnish? We are all followers ofJesus our Christ, and our Messiah here. We believe in him and accept his free gift of forgiveness for our sins and are therefore saved. I understand we'll never agree on everything this side of eternity. And as long as we understand and agree on issues of salvation we have no major divisions. This is not by any means close to an exhaustive list of why I dont agree with you on your postmellinial views. There are doctorines all throughout the bible that fall apart if you subscribe to the post mellinialism viewpoint. Peace and unity in Christ, A brother from another mother
@@maxkelter3561 It's an easy cop-out. Say it's a new idea and be done with it. Typically said by those who don't know the answers to the questions I pointed out above.
This was more or less the way it happened to me, even all the scripts you mentioned, and conviction over predicting things I felt that too Jeff. This was a really good watch. God bless you.
26:52 so when we sight the verse about his ascension saying that "all power in heaven and on earth has been given to me", are we implying that before this moment Jesus did not have all power in both heaven and on earth? When I read that our God sits in the heavens and does all that he pleases, I read he is Sovereignly ruling all things just as he was when he spoke light into darkness. Also really need a definition of kingdom from Jeff or someone who holds his view. I think eschatology is the only area that I find myself unable to find complete confidence. I am premill and will continue to be until I am given solid reasons not to be. Being premill has never caused me to be on pause looking up for his arrival, but has given me many reasons to move forward in hope knowing no matter how it looks now (better or worse) that he will either come for me or call me home.
Hallelujah Born Again Pilipinas or Philippines Spiritual revival is coming so very, very near in my nation Philippines in Jesus Christ Holy, Mighty, Great and Powerful name I pray Amen...
Notice how postmillenialism must always be explained by someone. No one is reading the Bible on their own and coming up with that view. It borders on gnosticism.
One problem I’m having is that when the beast and the false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire, and Satan is bound for 1000 years immediately after this, Jesus sets his kingdom on this earth, and rules and rates for 1000 years
Nobody ever presents Isaiah 26:19-21 in these discussions. Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. (The dead in Christ will rise 1st. then we that remain..) Come, my people, enter into your rooms (Not go, no, 'COME' my people.. that where I am you may be also) And close your doors behind you; (Rev 4:1 a door standing open in heaven.., and the voice said, “Come up here) Hide for a little while Until indignation runs its course. (This indignation is God's wrath,,, Tribulation) For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place (He is about to come, after His people are safe) To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed And will no longer cover her slain. (This is the tribulation... God punishing the world.
...and God delivered Judgement upon the land of Egypt, but the people of Gosh en, Israel, who followed after His Commandments were not visited with His Wrath...as Noah and his family entered into the Ark, God closed the door and then He destroyed the world with water, but the Righteous He protected even though they had to pass through His Judgement...I don't recall ever reading of our Lord ever directing His Wrath upon any but those who rejected Him...by the blood of the Lamb we are covered and protected but I never read that we wouldn't witness His Wrath on those unbelievers around us...
EXACTLY. They always try to pretend those verses don't exist. Or, the RARE A-Mil/Post-Mil guy who will address them tries to claim they're metaphorical. In short, they don't ACTUALLY believe the Word of God.
I could never understand when Jeff Durbin said he believes more people will go to heaven than hell. And as far as his eschatology goes, "we got a lot of work to do"
Yeah this was good. I have lots of thoughts but don’t have the effort to argue about themes in this comment. I will say I think the bigger theme o in scripture is that God is the only savior and he needs to intervene to save the world. As he does at the fall, the flood, Babel, Abraham’s call, Joseph’s dreams, the exodus, Jericho, the judges, David’s anointing , the destruction of Sennacherib ‘s army, Cyrus’ decree, Hanukkah (references w in the gospels), the incarnation, the atonement, the coming of the Holy Spirit , the Damascus road, and finally the second coming , which comes BEFORE the millennium according to revelation 20.why would God now suddenly stop intervening to Dave by his own right hand? That’s my thematic argument for dispy premil
As an Amil guy, my chief issues with PM is the optimism in the secular arena. I fear it too closely resembles the Social Gospel movement of the late 19thC. There is lots of emphasis on cultural engagement which was exactly what the Social Gospel of now failed denominations are cautionary tales. If Conversion is accomplished by God, which I believe it is, and true converts are sanctified, then christians will grow in number. I still believe the Lord will have to return to Destroy the enemy finally. My focus should be on Converting the nations. I reject PreMil Dispensationalism because of its escapism.
Everything makes more sense when you look at the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God separately - as they are two different kingdoms! Things fall into place all by themselves: The kingdom of God is already among us and the kingdom of heaven is the coming earthly rule of Jesus on the throne of David in Jerusalem. John the Baptist announced the KoH, but Israel refused. They always mess up on the first try. It will be established on his second coming.
My biggest problem is what Paul means when he says that the Jews will be regrafted in after the full number of Gentiles have been saved. Post mill relies on the Church and the Jews to be referenced as the same in prophecy but this contradicts that.
You are mistaken. I am full-throated covenant theology postmillenial and I believe that ethnic Israel will be saved based on the olive tree in Romans 11.
@@hudjahulosOh? I am very intrigued. Do you think that the redemption of the Jews can happen during or at the end of the millennium? I figure that it is a requirement for it to start the millennium because I see Christ's earthly reign to be from Jerusalem. Why do you think that the replacement theology is wrong if the post mill position stated here says that The Jugdement was against the Jews?
@@hudjahulos Don't you think Israel has already been saved ? The full number of gentiles was reached in the first century , all the Jews scattered among the nations had heard about their Messiah and the rest that had to be saved was saved. Could it be the 144 000 we see in Revelation ? Maybe it was them who were "raptured" . it's only me . What do you think ?
@@hudjahulos Istael being saved, as Luke commented here , comes after the Church Age and the fullness of the Gentiles. The Messianic Age offered to the Jews, but rejected, is then offered again and accepted by them. "...you will not see me again until you say Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." This was specifically to Israel. After the intense pressure of the Time of Jacob's Trouble, they cry out for their Messiah to come and rescue them...and He will. Then the Messianic Age can come into being on earth because the natural Olive branches are grafted back at that time. (Preterism does not match what Jesus said about the Tribulation being the worst in human history. You cannot deny that the Holocaust was far worse than 70 A.D. And evern worse is yet to come with 2/3 of Israel being slaughtered according to Zechariah, sadly.)
Not really. Israel is God's "CHOSEN PEOPLE"...the Church as the Body of Christ is His "BRIDE"...we are NOT the same...but after all has come to pass we will ALL be ONE in our Lord Jesus!
I am post mil and a Calvinist. But when Jeff says it pre mil dosent follow history, you could say the same thing about protestantism in general. Not the greatest argument. But I love Jeff Durban, I listen to him very often.
Jesus, defeating His enemies equates to His enemies of every generation, since the great commision was given, until He returns and defeats the last enemy, death. The Nations are clearly His people from every nation, past, present, and future, until He returns. I do not see a world for Christ at His coming, I see all believers from every nation, from every generation, most will be resurrected, many will still be living, coming with Him to reign on the earth at His coming. Yes, He is reigning now, defeating His enemies. Which is a process, from 11 to all the fullness of our brothers and sisters are in Christ, from every generation since the great commission until the appointed time. Amen... Come on, more Christians = the population of the planet has increased over the past 2000 years, that is what we would expect, that is what the scriptures say, there will be multitudes of believers praising Jesus.
Who are the "rulers of this world" in this verse? Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
I do not understand how anyone could read the Apostle Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, in which he instructed it to be read aloud to that congregation, and not arrive at the understanding that Paul said to them that some of THEM would still be alive at the coming of the Lord. And that they already understood the times and seasons that they were living in, so that their perspective was perfectly clear. THEY were waiting for the Lord's return while still alive! I don't see how Paul could have been more clear than he was to those people in that letter.
No one denies that Paul thought that Jesus could come for His church during Paul's lifetime. The church has ALWAYS thought that. Immanence is a basic doctrine of Christianity. But Paul also understood that no one would know when Jesus would come, and Paul never claimed to know, either. He just taught everyone to always be ready. And he was right to do so. So, I don't see what the point here is.
@@stormhawk31 Jesus himself said that his coming would be in their lifetimes in MT 16:28 when he said some of his disciples would still be alive, and yet some would have been dead. How much more clear can it be?
@@makarov138 No, that's not what he said. Keep reading. The very next few verses, He takes Peter, James, and John up on the mountain and is transfigured before them. THAT was what He was talking about. Context.
@@stormhawk31 That IS exactly what he said! Jesus said that SOME of THEM would not die before his coming. Which implies that SOME would die before his coming. And verse 27 shows it to be a day of destruction and vengeance being poured out. That next week when they went up on the mountain: WHO HAD DIED? NOBODY! Can't be that.
Matthew 24:21-21 , Yahusha says there will be great tribulation like the world has never seen and will never see, he also says if not cut short no human being would be saved. The fall of Jerusalem was rough but nothing like WWII for example. These verses were not fulfilled in 70 AD or in the lifetime of the apostles.
I didn’t hear anything about the rapture of the church… Also, I guess I’m a pre-mil guy based on growing up in modern America; but if Jesus Kingdom is now and things are not supposed to be degrading and moving towards the end times and what appears in Revelation, what does it mean when scripture talks about Satan being the prince of “this world” and us as a church being told not to be apart of this world, and Jesus himself saying that His kingdom is not of this world? As well as Jesus making statements like give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and give to God what is God’s? Im just a bit confused and would appreciate some elaboration on these points in view of the Post-mil viewpoint.
We live in a world where war and turmoil continue. How does this present age reflect the lion and the lamb lie down together and swords are turned into plowshears? The now but not yet seems to reflect much better the reality of the last two thousand years. 🤷🏽♂️
We're supposed to make disciples and absolutely. No one can agree on anything. It seems and everyone teaches everything else. And then there's endless stuff that isn't even taught.
@@katebee3164 Well....no, it didn't. Iff it is a primary issue, their conversation goes from me asking "why does this matter?" to "Who's right/wrong?" Since there is such an array of thoughts, studies and conclusions, there seems to be no concensus and there's no clarity on what God says. I'm a firm believer that God WANTS to talk to us and to be understood, so this whole issue becomes a giant disconnect to me.
@@katebee3164 Could you provide the verses of those warnings? I know what you're saying about false teachers, and I agree with that, but it seems like you're referring to some more specific warnings and I can't put my finger on them right now.
@@katebee3164 Right, I get that, but once we're elevating it to a primary, we're then saying that of the ton of views on the rapture and pre/post millennialis, most are incorrect and put one's faith and salvation in jeopardy. You haven't told me your view, and I haven't told you mine, and I almost guarantee that our thoughts and views on these things aren't going to line up. I believe that you search Scriptures to prove yourself faithful, and assuming that I do the same, that means one of us it tangibly wrong and, therefore, following a false faith? I agree that there's a lot of false teaching and a lot of false teachers. We're to be shewd as we go out. But since we don't have a unity on this issue among those that seem to be shown as faithful with the Word, I think it's a leap to dismiss disagreements on this subject as salvation threatening.
I think he did a good job of presenting his view on why it matters. He talked quite a bit about the complacency that he thinks can come from a dispensational view. He even closed with that same idea. I think he's wrong on almost all of his theology, but I totally agree that we should have a faith and worldview that drives us to action rather than self-centered apathy.
to most of the people in here... the end times isn't of real concern... make sure your salvation is secure... Make sure you are developing fruits in your life through repentance... Make sure you know the will of the Father... Make sure Jesus knows your name. We never know when our time is up, why would we bank on living to the end times? Make sure you are ready today. This stuff is neat, but let's not dwell on this too much, learn it so you know how to teach others to prepare.
Who invented the rapture doctrine? 1. John Nelson Darby (Born: November 18, 1800, Died: April 29, 1882, he was an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren and the founder of the Exclusive Brethren. Sundridge House, Bournemouth, England). He invented the false doctrine of the Rapture 1830-1833 AD and popularized it in 1850 to which it infected us today. His home was Leap Castle in Ireland’s County Offaly has a tantalizingly haunted history. From deathly trapdoors to dreary dungeons, the castle is known to be one of the most haunted homes in Ireland.
I once heard John MacArthur tell his church "We Lose", in discussing the end times. You could just feel the life being sucked out of the room. It was so hard to listen to. When i read the scriptures, i don't find loss, but victory. We don't lose, we have already won. If we have already won, why would evil completely take over the world? Is the gospel that unsuccessful in his view? For such a faithful man, i just do not understand how he could hold that position. I find it very difficult to remain under pre-mill preaching, when preterism seems so obvious to me.
But that was only part of his sermon. Jesus won by losing, we too, according to Daniel, lose for a time, so that we might be made pure. The church has always grown in persecution. We may have more numbers right now, but do we really? When I listen to people in live stream debate, the Christians are clueless in almost every regard. I appreciated this talk, it is stretching my thinking, but as of now there are just way too many holes, but I will find this is my first true deep-dive into this theory. I am 100% about solo scriptura. I have been studying prophesy all my life, I've looked at post mellinialism, it just never made sense. Maybe my mind was closed to it. But what you just said about MacArthur was insincere- taking that out o of context
Preterism is heresy. We DO lose - naturally speaking. The devil will have his day. God allows him to achieve his ultimate goal for a brief moment. But it's all done for his ultimate purpose. You don't refine gold without fire. We DO ACTUALLY win. NOTHING can truly harm is, and even if we die, we'll be back. God will unseat the usurper Satan, and the kingdoms of this world will LITERALLY become the Kingdom of God and of His Christ. The world will be purged and renewed, and there will be a thousand years of actual utopia on Earth - something ONLY achievable if JESUS HIMSELF IS the government. Post-Millennialism tries to get the Kingdom without the King, and that ain't happening.
...or MAYBE they actually read their Bible and understood the Words of our Lord through His prophets and disciples as they are written and not as we would like the TRUE TRANSLATION and HISTORICAL FACTS to line up with our personal point of view simply to ignore the Truth and not properly interpret the reality our Lord has instructed us to be prepared to endure? A good tactician always makes sure he anticipates everything his adversary might have waiting to throw at him so he can be ready to face them whatever they might be. Just because someone is afraid to face the future by sticking his head into a hole in the sand will not make the actual outcome any easier to face. God will always protect his chosen but he has never promised us we would not have to pass through His Judgement when He is dealing it out upon His enemies. The sacrificed blood of our Lord will cover us from His Righteous Judgements upon the world and all who follow after the Satan's "kingdom". Remember, we as believers in Christ are not of this world even though we are in it. We were never promised that we would not be faced with hardships, only that through our Lord we would be victorious. I believe that our Lord has always told us that if we keep our eyes on Him, NOTHING can harm us! Don't surrender to your fears and expect to be separated so you can avoid living through God's Judgements upon all UNBELIEVERS...His Judgements are NOT meant for those who love the Lord and follow after His commandments! Death can have NO victory upon those who love the Lord! I'm sorry you think the way you do about "post-millennials". They don't love the world, they just want to be prepared to pass through the Judgements of the Lord and come through victorious at the side our our Lord Jesus Christ. As a "bond-slave" to my Lord, my pleasure is in serving Him and following His commandments...the world in it's present state has little to offer me compared to what my Lord has prepared for me in His Kingdom to come!
Correct me if I'm hearing this wrong, and I'm sure someone will, but his endtime view is based on the book of Revelation being metaphorical and not literal, (yes theres symbolism but to write it all off as such I thinknis a stretch,) how then do they get around the tribulation and all the judgments. What about how the book starts, the letters to the 7 churches? were they just church ages or was it all for the people prior to 70AD? Im not trying to argure I'm just bringing up questions. Im pre-mil but thats not to say that it clears up all the questions. Its a mystery and its ok to sometimes say we just dont know....yet
Pre-Wrath rapture, Pre-millennial it couldn't be plainer if you remove your indoctrination about "the most symbolic book in the bible". Daniel is very symbolic as well.
That's one thing I've noticed, that it's a process and i see the world getting better and better every day and justice being established.... oh wait, that would make me insane if i thought the world was getting better in this "process". The world is getting worse not better, i think that has to be pretty obvious.
There waiting for the Temple to be built this is my understanding We the Born Again people is the Temple that is being Built for the Truth plus the Battle that We endured for these many years.
I’m pre mill I’d love to hear MacArthur explain premil to Jeff. I love all my reformed pastors but don’t understand why hermeneutics dissolves just for the book of revelation specifically. “The church” isn’t mentioned after chapter 4/5
But there are also many holes in Postmillannialism. I have listened to lessons from Pastor Durbin. Some of his teachings and challenges on social issues are spot on. But I find him very "puffed up" on this theology. On this interview he came across humble, but when he preaches this at his church he is pridefully arrogant and if you think other than the Olivet Discource being "fulfilled" in 70 AD then you are foolish. Well Pastor Durbin, you fail to explain some aspects of this "fulfillment"! •Jesus says after the gospel has been preached to all the nations. In Luke 21 Jesus says after the age of gentiles is "fulfilled". Did this happen in 70 AD. No, the church was just getting started and gentiles today are still coming to Christ. •Jesus says there will be false Christ's performing amazing signs in the heavens. Signs that will lead the world astray. Did this happen? •Jesus says it will be a tribulation like the world has never seen. Far worse tribulations and wars have happened since 70 AD. •Believers will be persecuted and put to death because we follow Christ. Yet, Christ followers weren't persecuted at the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Yes, Rome was persecuting Christians. But at the battle of Jerusalem, Rome's beef was with the non Christ believing Jews. Christ followers were allowed to leave. So how were Christians persecuted when the Jewish temple was destroyed? •When Jesus mentioned the abomination of desolation. Jews thought this happened under Greece 200 years before Christ came. And it did. The abomination of desolation by Antiochus. But then Jesus says that wasn't it. So then Greece is an example of already but not yet! •Further more, scripture says the man of lawlessness will enter the temple and declare himself God. Pastor Dubin says 666 is Nero. But Nero died in 68 AD and never entered the temple and declare himself God. Nor did Titus at the event. Nowhere does scripture say the abomination of desolation is a burnt down and destroyed temple. •Jesus says after the tribulation of those days the sun and moon will be darkened. And star fall. Pastor Dubin preaches, well Matt 24 is about 70 AD, thus this occurred in 70 AD because to him the Bible says so. Yet this event has not been observed yet. God calls us to compare history with prophecy. He has foretold empires, fall of Israel, his coming Messiah, etc. not just as "God said so". But we are to test prophecy with actual events. So if Pastor Dubin is correct, then that would make Jesus a false prophet because many of these events didn't occur in 70 AD. Rather, Jesus words are true and can be trusted. Daniel 9, 70 week prophecy says "desolations" will occur with Jerusalem. As in multiple. Jesus says that wars will occur and not to be frightened, because these are the birth pains, but the "end" is not yet. So 70 AD was part of the birth process to the end of the age. But then He skips beyond this point when Jerusalem will be desolate after the age of the gentiles/nations, when the world will reject Christ followers (not Jews in 70 AD), and there will be false christs performing amazing signs that will lead the world astray. Who do you think the Jesus rejecting Israel will call if a person who sets himself in the temple, performing signs in the heavens, and declares himself God? They will call him their messiah. Aka "antichrist" or anti messiah. The same meaning. So what make more sense a fulfillment of gentiles in 70 AD, or sometime in our future now that Israel exists again and the gospel has been preached to almost every nation???
Compare today to 60AD. And before, or even yrs after. We are spoiled rotten. Sure there's evil, but to say these are last days, doesn't even make sense if you know history, even just a Lil bit.
@ unknown312 The apostles said THEY were in the last days. But since futurists want to make it all about themselves , they say that WE are still in the last days !! Have you ever seen last days last for ages ? loool An in-depth study of the prophecies (with the words used , the things described) and what the apostles said show that they're all wrong ..but PROUD to be.
@@framboise595 That was the beginning of the last days. When Israel came back to her land in 1948 that was the signal of the end of the last days. She surely didn't come back to her land in 70 A.D.--just the reverse.
@@ReLair88 If the beginning of the "last days" was 1948 , then how come the 1st century apostles said that Jesus was manifested in the flesh in the "last days" ?
Lets not forget that many things in Gods creation are fractal including the bible and It's many prophecies. for instance the letters given to the churches in Asia minor are for both the literal churches in those regions, and also for us as Churches in this generation. So I believe these prophecies about the destruction of Jerusalem and the abomination of desolation were partially fulfilled in AD 70 but still fully need to be fulfilled in the literaly end of the world.
Haven't watched the video yet. Thank you for it. I don't know what postmillenialism really consists of nor do I know all the details of pre. All ik is what I believe. Which goes off of scripture with nephiloms, sons of God in it. So I am interested to learn of this. From what I understand I'm a pre more so. I like to hear all views before I make a stand on something. God bless
Premillennial for sure. For me no one knows the day or hour. Pre wrath or pre trib rapture works for me. They are so closely related in many ways. I understand both hope for Pretrib but preparing for the long haul. Either way Jesus is returning for his church pre, mid or post rapture. Maranatha saints!
You have to work awfully hard to prove your point labor-intensive Thessalonians makes it easy. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout With the voice of an Ark Angel and with the Trump of God And the dead in Christ shall rise firstThen we which are live and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord And so shall we ever be with the Lord.. That's so hard you have to beat the bushes to death to get around it The word is true You can't outwit the word of God With your Hyperboly and with yourself proclaim wisdom. We are to comfort each other with these words not Confuse... If you can't accept the rapture are you really saved Or are you trying to create your own outcome The rapture is comfort for those who believe and those who can't accept it I believe are relying on their own salvation within themselves.
My view is that no one knows for sure what's going to happen. Jesus will return, but most of the details are uncertain. I listen to arguments from both sides, but no one can be dogmatic about eschatology. It's one of those areas where we just don't know enough.
There’s so many things that this man has misinterpreted it’s almost impossible to deal with as a summary in a forum commentary. But If he really is someone with intellectual integrity who’s able to change his mind, I would suggest that he put his integrity to the test, and listen to Chuck Missler’s teachings on end times eschatology, and then see if he still believes in post millennialism. But in short the problem is that most all Protestant denominations along with Catholic doctrine have went along Agusta’s reinterpretation to pacify the Roman Government’s dislike of Scripture that wasn’t politically correct, claiming that Christ would return to do away with evil earthly rulers and rule for a thousand years, so Augusta, claimed that it was only an allegory of Christ ruling in people’s hearts, and not a literal 1000 year earthly rule. And in spite of hundreds of Biblical prophecies that say it is literal. And because it goes along with something else that most Seminary’s don’t teach, which is the Scripture prophecy pertaining to Israel, of Christ’s return to fulfill the Jews calling upon their Messiah who they crucified, and will recognize, in the time of Jacob’s trouble, after 2/3 of the Jews have been killed. And which is the entire reason for the tribulation, to bring back to God his chosen people, as well as everyone else who repents and call’s upon the name of the Lord. And yes Jesus is Lord now, but His 1000 year rule on Earth won’t start until His 2nd coming.
When will you address the issue with Gary Demar. It seems like he is not being treated with any seriousness, but just dismissed cause he asks difficult questions nobody wants to answer. It blows my mind that a dispensational premillennial is within orthodoxy, but Uncle Gary is not. Help me understand.
He’s claiming that the resurrection has already happened. That’s been recognized by every church from the apostles until now as damning heresy. And they are trying to speak with him privately
Hyper preterism is heresy. Believe me, I think dispensationalism is incredibly silly and unbiblical, but hyper/preterism is even worse. Outright heresy.
I've been on both sides of the issue. I finally realized that it didn't really matter. We are in the Great Tribulation now, and we have been since the 1st Century. Scripture describes the tribulations that believers will face; martyrdom, wars, natural disasters, diseases, famines, etc. It's hard to say that all of those terrible things have not been ongoing for the last two millenia upon believers. All of the apostles died as martyrs. More believers were martyred in the 1990's than in every decade in history combined. The Catholic Church killed millions of believers. World War II saw more death than any war in history. We have lived privileged lives in the West, but our time is coming, and we have not been immune from life's trials and suffering either. It's guaranteed. Whether we are taken up before the return of Christ or not really makes no difference when at any time we can be victimized, murdered, die from natural disasters or terrible diseases. My dad died at 63 from organ failure. My sister was killed at 22 in a car crash. She left a one year old baby behind. My losses are nothing exclusive to me. We have all suffered. Life is full of tribulations. The only way out of it is the end of our individual lives in this fallen world. As believers, we are to follow Christ, spread the gospel, and trust in God. I do absolutely love Jeff Durbin. He is a true Shepherd of God's word.
Matthew 24:29-31 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... will send his angels to gather the elect..." Those that do not believe these words of Jesus will not go in the rapture. If you do not believe Jesus, you are not a Christian. Enough said.
Very true Jesus is coming to take those that are waiting for him, we are not appointed to wrath but salvation though our Lord Jesus Christ, the wrath of God is for unbelievers and disobedient,not the Christian The word tells us to watch and pray. And people Jesus is coming sooner then we realize.⏲️ The clock is ticking !everything had to get to this point before these things could take place. All is in place for his return!!!! How do you think every eye shall see him when he come back to the earth our cell phones, I am taking about at the end . Computers cell phones robot s look at the technology we have.🎚️
@@DebbieWebster-y9x The technology has existed for many generations, since television was invented and put into most homes. Yes, we are getting close, but there are still several years remaining. It is unfolding and the pieces are being put into place, but 2029-2030 is the timeframe when the time of testing truly begins. Yes, the wrath of God is for unbelievers and the disobedient. However the wrath of God comes after the tribulation. The Great Tribulation is the wrath of the forces of Satan against true Christians and all will be tested. Many people errantly think that the wrath of God is the tribulation, but if you read the scriptures, the wrath of God is God's response for the evil acts carried out against the people of God. Blessings....
If you think pre vs. post you might be less prepared if it ends up being post. Which would our enemy prefer? Why does it really matter? It will be what it will be. Maybe just hope for the best and plan for the worst.
As a pre-mill guy....i thought Jeff's arguement saying "the end of days" does not mean end of the world but means the end of the old covenant was quite a compelling argument.
Yes, that is because its true. Amen!
The problem though is Luke 20:34-36. Jesus specifies that sons of THIS age will marry while sons of THAT age will not and be like angels
@@SundancerrMusicI always understand that we are in the end of the same age that the old covenant was given under. Covenant and age not being synonymous
@@SundancerrMusic thats a good one. But i wonder, just speculating. Does "this age" and "last days" or "end of days" mean the same thing or different? Meaning could the "last days" Jeff was talking about mean the end of those days of the old covenant while the "this age" as per the Luke scripture you gave mean this physical age then the one to come in heaven? Just wondering.
@darryld.8616
That was supposed to be a compelling argument?
Read the Scriptures more...
I have been binge watching pastor Jeff Durbin's videos recently. I was raised premillenial and currently attend a church that holds to that view. I am now reconsidering. The arguments for the postmillenial view are very strong. I have also been reading through revelation daily, and it does seem to fit the postmillenial view. Like pastor Jeff said, you have to set aside your own preconceived notions, and what you've been taught and let the text speak for itself.
I definitely respect Jeff but disagree with him completely. I did what Jeff said I set aside my preconceived notions and at best I came to a post trib partial preterist pre mil. I heard Jeff and Rc Sproul make the argument that Nero is the fulfillment of 2 thessalonians 2. I think the dispensational interpretation of that passage is erroneous but the preterist interpretation is too. Did Nero attend church? Was he a miracle worker?
@nikolascook
The funny thing about Nero is that he died the year before the sacking of Jerusalem and had no connection to the event Post-Millennialists keep pointing to as the abomination of desolation so it’s impossible for him to have been the fulfillment of that prophecy to begin with.
@yourstrulytreasurepoetic
Don’t just read Revelation by itself, read Daniel, Matthew 24-25 and 1st and 2nd Thessalonians as they are all partial revelations of the same event each giving clearer context and details, Jesus himself references Daniel in Matthew 24, do not all Jeff’s clever distortion of Scripture to mislead you he is knowingly twisting Scripture to support his own viewpoint.
@travisparks9289 I have read the entire Bible at least 3 times. Recently, I've been going through and reading the New Testament in its entirety. I don't believe that Pastor Jeff is distorting scripture at all, but if that's your opinion, that fine. However, even if you believe him to be in error, this isn't something Christians should divide over since it's not a salvation issue. At the end of the day, only God truly knows which interpretation is correct, and as long as the end result is that I get to be in His presence for all eternity and worship Him that's all that matters. I appreciate your comment, though, and I thank you for it. I think these things are interesting to discuss amongst believers, and I love to study the word of God. I will take your suggestion and read the books you recommended together. However, I don't think it will change my perspective. God bless!
@@travisparks9289amen
This was excellent! Thank you for having this discussion. I was pre millennial, but now post millennial through my studying and allowing God show me through scripture interpreting scripture. The peace and joy that passes all understanding is growing within me to share with others.
You're totally deceived
Those who hold to postmillennialism believe that this world will become better and better (even though it certainly doesn't look like it is) with the entire world eventually becoming “Christianized.” After this happens, Christ will return. However, this is not the view of the world in the end times that Scripture presents. From the book of Revelation, it is easy to see that the world will be a terrible place during that future time. Also, in 2nd Timothy 3:1-5 it says, “There will be terrible times in the LAST days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God." IF Christians and thereby Christ were reigning, do we really think we would have over a billion Muslims, who view Jesus as a prophet right below Mohamad, a billion Buddhists, who believe Jesus was an enlightened person, a billion Hindus, who believe Jesus studied yoga and became a guru to the Jews, a billion Catholics who are entrusting their souls to Mary at the hour of their death, a billion atheists, the LGBTQ running rampant, TV shows and movies, that continually blaspheme God and His Christ, drinking, drugs, and colleges that have become propaganda mills that promote Godless, Big-bang theology and Darwinian Evolution, human trafficking, and a host of other sinful deeds that will be eliminated during the reign of Jesus Christ, our Holy God. This is a good example of eisegesis; reading pre-conceived ideas into the text, rather than simply reading what the text is clearly stating.
1 Cor 15 teaches that Christ must reign until He has made His enemies a footstool under His feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. We’re also told in that passage that death (the last enemy) is swallowed up in victory at the last trumpet when the dead in Christ are raised imperishable, not 1000 years after that.
That passage is 2 Timothy is a common objection to postmillennialism. My question is: the last days of what? Timothy is told to avoid those people.
The book of revelation is the most symbolic book in the bible and isn’t meant to be taken completely literal. We can’t read something in there literal then say it must be a future tribulation because there haven’t been fire breathing prophets or stars falling from the sky yet. John tells his original audience that he is their brother and companion in the tribulation. He makes it clear the tribulation is soon to take place, the time is near, the time is at hand. Daniel was told to seal up the words of his prophesy but John was told NOT to seal up the words of his prophesy for the time is at hand.
Christians who believe that the Church will eventually Christianize the world before Christ returns, are living in a dream !
@@Steve-og4iiWill the gates of Hell prevail against the church?
@@joshjay6765Revelation is the only book with a warning and a promise. The warning is do not add or take away from this book of prophecy the plagues mentioned will be added to him. (Rev 18). Also a promise of blessing to those who read and understand it.
To not take it as mostly literal to me looks pretty dangerous. Are there obvious illusions, sure. But, a lot of it is pretty specific and not something that could’ve happened 2000 years ago.
@@CountCulture27 postmillennialists don’t add or take away from revelation. We just take it symbolic because it is the most symbolic book in the bible, not meant to be read literal. The book of revelation is clear the tribulation will soon take place, the time is near, the time is at hand, etc. When Jesus prophesied the tribulation He said “this generation will by no means pass away before all these things take place.”
These guys are so smart! We need to be careful to not let worldly circumstances dictate our view on God's timeless and perfect Word.
They are not smart.
Great thing about discussions like this, is we all still worship Jesus Christ and He is the only salvation. but just disagree with some things among ourselves.
I like how post mill is very optimistic. I don’t see post mill at all when I read the scriptures and don’t know how anyone can see post mill in faithful interpretation but hey what the heck do I know…
That's because so many read scripture ( revelations mainly ) they don't put into prospective when it was wrote.
Rapture is going to happen when the Anti-Christ will be revealed to the world, before his reign on all earth. He will become a worldwide leader and worshiped as a Messiah to the falling world we are living. After his 7 years of reign, Jesus with His saints will come again (2nd time ON EARTH) and beat him and his army gathered against Jesus in the battle of Armageddon...
You know enough to know that Post-Millennialism is totally unbiblical.
It was written in 90ad
@@petemacinnes No, it was written in the 50s - 60s AD - BEFORE the destruction of the Temple.
I really like the following 2 verses. 👉 “For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”
Colossians 1:19-20 .
Wow I loved this video. Definitely a post millennialist now. I held the pre because that's what I was brought up on. When something makes perfect sense. You can't just deny it or overlook it because it makes you uncomfortable. This view makes so many things make sense. I don't want to even call it a view i'd say it's the truth.
The earliest spiritual descendants of the apostles (Papias, Polycarp, etc.) were all historical futurist premillennial in their understanding of eschatology. I would love to hear Jeff or Joel’s rebuttal to this fact and how they reconcile their eschatological system in light of this.
@ whodeytko
Jesus described his coming with women grinding at the mill . Matthew 24
In the days of Papias and Polycarp , this activity was certainly still going on . But it is obvious that it cannot point to our modern days at all.
So , it HAD to take place in antiquity , during their generation if we take Jesus at his words.
I believe Jeff does address this on one of his own channels. Can't remember the exact video or series but I have heard him bring this up before.
So you think that the practice of grinding at a mill was only preformed in antiquity? You must be joking or only have a amero-centric perspective or be young. Thoroughly flawed perspective no matter the case and extremely weak reasoning and logic for the argument you claim.
@@nickboles9649
I'm not American at all ! i'm European.And it's not because YOU don't believe what Jesus said and does want to take him at his words than my reasoning is weak.
Have you ever seen your grandmother making grain into flour with a handmill ?
Job referred to the hand mill talking about his own wife. Job , the oldest book in the Bible !!
And as Jesus perfectly described , this was a WOMAN's activity. And there were often two women (as he said , one taken , the other left) doing that.
Proud arrogant futurists don't care about what is written but those who take Jesus at his words are humble enough to believe without seeing anything.
They have changed the meaning of the words that bother them like soon , near , at hand , shortly etc... saying that they don't mean what they do.
So , what do they mean ? Nothing.
If Jesus said "this generation" would see the signs of the Son of man coming on the clouds , then they saw it. Or Jesus is a liar. He lied to them , he deceived them but proud futurists speak truth.
They have even gone as far as to say that the apostles had misunderstood Jesus because they firmly believed that he would come in their time !
The apostles who saw Jesus , who were with him , who benefited from his teachings would have got it all wrong but WE would know it all ?!!
You see how arrogant futurists can be ?
And since your reasoning is not as weak as mine , please find one great city in that modern world where the sound of the MILLSTONE shall not be heard again at its fall (Revelation 18:22) !
Paris ? London ? New York ? Tokyo ?
Berlin ?
A great city with millstones and with the blood of the prophets , of the apostles and of the witnesses of Jesus on its hands...
Good luck finding such a thing in our current era !
lukechandler.wordpress.com/2014/06/27/an-ancient-grinding-stone-perfectly-designed-for-a-womans-hand/
It's not a matter, really, of what certain men believed, it's what does the Word of God actually say! I grew up, as most modern American Christians do, as a Pre-Mil, Pre-Rapture, Futurist and after studying the Word I had to take the position that Jesus was speaking directly to those people in that generation (Matt 24), not future generations and there is no way to get around that fact.
Same background as Jeff. Then listening to Doug Wilson, Gary Demar, others that takes these scriptures click into place whereas before those scriptures kinda leaves one hanging .. great discussion! Thank you!
If you’re struggling with planting your feet on this matter and you’re scanning the comments, it’s probably not the best idea. I don’t say this to discourage you whatsoever, but since you’re struggling, I want you to really do your research; more so than diving into a comment thread.
Grace and peace be with you
I am listening, have looked back through all of the Scripture references presented. I have not changed my position.
Jeff and others that share this view...fine. no need to break fellowship.
There are positions, I personally think his interpretation is the problem.
I am not here to cause division, or to debate. I do enjoy learning other interpretation. It keeps me challenged to stay in the word studying myself. Ultimately I want to be a Berean,, and test any teaching against the Scripture, understanding than anyone can use the Scripture to take you on a journey that may not be the correct path or conclusion.
In my opinion, his opinion in eschatology is incoherent. I do notice he downplays prophecy, by "highly symbolic". I agree Revelation is highly symbolic as it uses Symbolism to tell of future events.
Jeff sowss a lot of division over Bible prophecy, he tells lies, and he's promoting something that's blatantly unbiblical and so, satanic.
Well Said. Thank You.
I have tried to listen to this view of eschatology a number of times now, and to me, there is no compelling argument to persuade me to change my view. It seems to me that the entire book of Revelation is treated as just symbolic, nothing to see here and is generally dismissed as already taken place. There are some very cataclysmic events outlined that I can't see as having ever happened in history, and I've yet to hear a post-mil explanation for it. At the same time, this world has been in a downward spiral for the entirety of my life, and that's the whole world, not just America, I haven't been witness to it getting better over time. Things seem to be falling into place to fit the pre-mil position on a day by day basis, in my opinion.
@@rickpenner7860 yes, I agree with you. This is the position, that the Scripture supports. As I read and study, the Pre-Mil fits best what Scripture says. I agree the cataclysmic events spoken of, just don't have historical fulfillment. I see in Scripture, prophecy has always been literally fulfilled. It makes no sense to me to read future prophecy as "symbolic" or just "analogy".
John Darby was 100% WRONG! and Lucifer the Destroyer has DECEIVED most! PROPHECY-- TRIBULATION NOW ruclips.net/video/PEkq1I7rdCM/видео.html
I watched Robert Breaker's explanation of the difference between Kingdom of God vs Heaven and it makes a lot of sense.
I love your ministry. I am a silver pier patreon member, I just signed up to be a member of the online ministry I look forward to the book, and I am now a post millennialist. Keep up God's assignment for you. It is truly appreciated. May God watch over and bless your loved ones, ministry members, friends and you 🙏❤️
Incredibly grateful. Thank you.
Amen Jeff, exactly what I have been saying. The Disciples in Jerusalem understood there was a major real estate crash in THEIR near future. When I read "the end times" the Holy Spirit started whispering to my mind, "the end of what?".
Post-trib pre-wrath rapture here. I’m premillennial, but listening to Pastor Joel has piqued my curiosity and I’m diving back into eschatology again to revisit my understanding.
Matt trewhella has an excellent expository sermon on the mt olivet discourse that would challenge any pre-mil believer. It’s what broke me of my pre-mil beliefs.
I would link to it, but YT doesn’t allow external linking. It’s on sermon audio titled “An Exegetical Eschatology - The Mt. Olivet Discourse”
Revelation 20 is the killer for me. It clearly says that Christ’s return happens, then the resurrection, and then the millennium. If we’re in the millennium now, then postmil and amil would have to say that Christ has already returned and the resurrection of the righteous is already complete, but that is anti Christian heresy. I have yet to hear a convincing explanation for how they get around that
@cosmictreason2242 I'm premil, pre-wrath. Acts 1:11 presents problems as well as the book of Zechariah. The nation of Israel hasn't repented on a national level. Jesus hasn't LITERALLY returned, in the flesh. While I respect postmil teachers and ministries, they are off-point on this aspect of eschatology. Granted there are numerous abuses that have occurred with Premil teachers.
@@cosmictreason2242The Blessed Hope IS a hopeful eschatology. I'm not certain where Postmil brothers have cone up with a notion that there's is an eschatology of hope and other viewpoints aren't?
What do you do about Zechariah 12:10? Israel has not EVER experienced repentance on a national level. Jews, religious Jews, are either in unbelief or are still looking for their promised Messiah.
very exciting. since i changed from premil to postmil i keep forming visions in my mind of what could change in this world. outstanding message.
This 🎉🎉🎉
@@sophiaoconnell-szotysek463 awesome think it might just work
Same here, hated how as a premil there was little to no hope for my kids and now that my perspective has changed my future plans are completely different.
@@Pegasuskiller This is what the church is missing. with this understanding she would be pumped up for the future (pumped not puffed lol)
I have no faith in mankind making this world a better place. Only divine intervention can rid this cursed world.
I was never taught Rapture of any kind...our little church taught and preached about God's Love, Mercy and Grace. Salvation was front and center and living the Christian life..never anything on escaping the End of Days Trials and Tribulation by being Caught Up in a Rapture...❤
Best comment
Churches need to teach through the Bible . The end times is part of that .
…”never [preached] anything on escaping the end,…” but escaped preaching about eschatology? 😂
I think it's a good idea to be prepared for the deception of the last days. I'm pre-millenial but aware that it's an interpretation, not a doctrine
that much is evident, rapture doesn't mean escaping. It is the coming of the Lord and our gathering to him, it is the pre-tribulational rapture that involves an escape from the tribulation, which I agree is unbiblical.
It's interesting how we all have different paths in our thinking. I was raised post. I prayed one day for clarity and I came to find dispensational premillenialism. In my eyes, that made the book make more sense than it ever had before.
I am not post millennial but you are literally the only person that I have ever heard change to dispensational pre-millennial.
It’s a blessed way to use dispensationalism to navigate Biblical theology.
Its a great onto navigate it.
But you can’t deny m, the Lord Jesus Christ Reigns with full Authority at the right hand side of the Father
@@mayorrodgers7446Ever hear of Lee Brainard? He changed from Post-Mil to Dispensational Pre-Mil.
I'm NOT Dispensational, but I AM Pre-Trib/Pre-Mil.
@@stormhawk31 very interesting. Certainly not very common.
The Kingdom is here Spiritually in the hearts of believers.
The Kingdom is coming physically on earth from Israel when they look on Him whom they pierced.
If the full Kingdom was here now, why would Jesus teach us to pray "Your Kingdom come".
He taught His disciples how to pray. It was for His disciples. Read it in context. At the resurrection, and upon Jesus’ ascension He sat down at the right hand of the Father in His kingdom. He’s on His throne now, and forever. Amen
@@dkjazzzNope. Sorry. When Gabriel told Mary that her son (Jesus) would sit on the throne of his father David, how do you think Mary took that? Do you think she thought, "Oh great! That means that my son will spiritually sit on a spiritual throne of our spiritual hearts and rule spiritually!"? Or, as a first century Jew, do you think that she thought, "Wonderful! My son will rebuild the Kingdom of Israel, as God promised in the prophets, and rule the world (since Israel will become the center and head of the kingdoms as of the world, as God promised in the prophets), from the Davidic throne in Jerusalem, in fulfillment of God's covenant with both Abraham and David!"?
I guarantee you it was the latter.
Amillenialism and Post-Millennialism make God a liar, a deceiver, and a covenant-breaker. I'd be VERY careful about embracing such things.
@@stormhawk31 It doesn’t matter what Mary thought 🙄 The fact is that’s exactly why He came. And He resurrected He did ascend to His Kingdom. He is ruling for ever, and the “enemy” the dragon is defeated
@@dkjazzz WRONG. It DOES matter what Mary thought. Gabriel came to deliver a message to her FROM GOD. Are you saying that GOD lied? That Gabriel lied?
Part of proper hermeneutics is interpreting the Bible in light of how the original audience would've understood what was being said. And Mary, as a first century Jew, would have understood EXACTLY what Gabriel meant when he talked about "the throne of His father David". She would've understood that Gabriel was telling her that her son would fulfill the Old Testament prophecies, including Amos 9, about the Messiah's restoration of the Davidic Kingdom and reigning on earth from David's throne, FOREVER.
Furthermore, EVERYONE else who heard about what Gabriel said to Mary would've taken it the same way. And the disciples ALL had the SAME expectation. Acts 1:6 - 7, the disciples ask Jesus if he's AT THIS TIME going to RESTORE the Kingdom TO ISRAEL. Did Jesus tell them, "No, you idiots! Didn't you understand? There's NO MORE KINGDOM!"? No. He told them that it wasn't their business WHEN God would restore the Kingdom to Israel, implying that it wasn't going to happen NOW, but it WOULD happen at some later point.
EVERYONE in the early church, ALL of which was Jewish until Cornelius, expected the same thing. And when the apostles went and spread the message of the gospel, that was part of what they taught THEIR disciples. And THAT'S why, when you get to the Thessalonian letters, you see that, even though Paul only had about three weeks with the Thessalonians, he taught them eschatology. HE EXPECTED THE LORD TO RETURN AND RESTORE THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL. And universally, until the time of Origen and, especially, Augustine, that's what the ENTIRE Church thought. It only really changed when the Church became anti-Semitic.
@@stormhawk31 The only thing that matters about what Mary thought was that she believe what Gabriel told her and that was that she would have a son.
Behold! He's coming with the clouds! And every eye shall be blind with his glory! Every ear shall be stricken deaf to hear the thunder of his voice!
Thank you Joel for mentioning the cessationist + futurist inconsistency...I've been aware of this lack of scriptural rigor for some time now and haven't heard it addressed much
It's been two thousand years.
Has the spiritual life of mankind gotten better or worse since Jesus left to sit at the Father's right hand?
I just don't see it having gotten better at all.
God bless you guys. Really appreciate this channel ❤
It's gotten much better. Christians in many places around the world are allowed to worship openly without penalty of death. The gospel is literally preached all over the world as well and you and I can watch edifying videos on RUclips on demand.
As to the wickedness of the world, there is nothing new under the sun. Society has done much worse in the past than what we see today. Transgenderism, homosexuality, murder, ect., have all happened in the past and will continue to happen. Read Fox's Book of Martyrs and then compare it to how we are today. There is no comparison. We are spoiled in every way compared to Christians of the past.
The spiritual life of mankind was never gonna get better. But the state of the world certainly has. People just panic as we are more informed about what is going on worldwide. Imagine if 1st century news was broadcasted worldwide. We would pretty uniformly agree the world is better now.
@@simonwills540you only think it has been better because of genuine ignorance. From 1914 up to today over 100 million have died because of war, famine and social strife. Only Americans can say that everything has been so much better. You have a very American centric view.
@@JumpingJax777 I'm not American
@@JumpingJax777 Also, as Doug Wilson says, if you want proof of progress you only need one word: dentistry.
I'm full preterist but love watching Jeff's show. I appreciate most how he is not afraid to speak to people who have different theologies and call them names because they have a different understanding. I guess Dispensational is about as dirty as he gets 😂. I also appreciate how he presents information but is not trying to sell you on his ideas. Nor proclaim his way is the right way. We can learn a lot from the early theologians and doctrines. In the end it is uo to God's people to individually understand what God expects from his people and how to translate that into everyday life. ❤
What do preterists believe happens after we die?
Full Preterism is heresy.
Jeff Durbin was a big influence in me becoming postmill. For anyone interested, I’d also recommend reading or listening to Kenneth Gentry, RC Sproul, Doug Wilson, and Gary DeMar.
It's interesting to me that it's mostly reformed folks who are pushing post mil...
@@petemacinnesone heresy breeds another.
@@kingjames5527 reformed theology is not heresy ..
I believe we are and have been in last days since the days of jesus
So did John
That much is true.
If he’s reigning now, Israel should have the temple and him sitting on it. And all people of the world should be paying homage to him to him.
Jesus said plainly the time is coming when you will not worship in jerusalem...he said the temple will be torn down...and the TRUE worshipers will woragip God in Spirot and in Truth..not in jerusalem not in a temple made by man..
@@xanderbarr1983 true but we’re talking about end times. Read the book of Daniel Chapter 7 through 12 there will be a rebuilding of the temple the third time.
Daniel is about the “latter times”
@@rockkstah2550 yes,the latter times of the jewish covenant, we are in the new covenant...i see it differentltly,, it sounds as if you believe the state of israel should rule the world..i believe the state of israel is the false resurection warned about in revelation..all the world will worship because they rejected the gospel...the image they build will be in jerusalem...ijust a different view..jesus said i am the resurection..
But most preachers ive listened to my whole life have said the resurection of the state of israel is the biggest miracle in our generations..and for everyone to watch jerusalem because thats where all prophecy points...i just see it as a great deception to draw men back to jerusalem and away from our resurected lord...jesus is reigning...all power in heaven and earth has been given to him,, so go preach and teach the kingdom of God and baptise all nations in the name of Jesus.. he didnt say go build another temple, tjays religious men without the holy spirit reading the bible and trying to make it happen..daniel said the sacrifices will cease....they did...and now the new covenant is preached...if the sacrificss begin again it is blasphemy against everything Jesus did on the cross..jesus offered his blood for the remission of sins for all time..the. ail of the temple in jerusalem was torn feom top to the bottom when jesus died...they offered sacrifices for 40 years in vain....the 12 apostles preached to the 12 tribes untill the temple was destroyed, the temple was destroyed, the old priesthood was destroyed andd all the priests and the higj priest was killed...we are in the new covenant..daniel has been fulfilled. ....in my opinion..
@@xanderbarr1983 we all have opinions, mind simply says that Daniel hasn’t been fully fulfilled.
(Zechariah 14:16 KJV) And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
(Zechariah 14:17 KJV) And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
This was such a great video. I am presently reading Dr Sproul’s book. Thank you gentlemen for your faithfulness to our Savior Christ Jesus.
I continue to read and reread Gary demars book His videos are so outstanding especially on Matthew 24
If youre here on earth and you are a true follower of Christ the promises do come true. Because God protects us. He blesses us. I know i have experienced it. Once living in the chains of addiction. Once God broke me free of these demons. I have started being blessed in so many ways. In the AA program we have promises that God fulfills with each step we complete of the 12 steps. Wow as i write this the gentleman spoke on once Jesus ex spells the demons the kingdom of Heaven is upon you. Yes!!!! Because i had demons till the 12 steps. Which are God inspired. Now im living my best life. Wow this hit me so hard im crying. Thank you
It is important to realize what John the Baptist meant by the kingdom. Where would he get the idea of the kingdom and its characteristics? From the OT. The OT describes a kingdom where there is a supernatural temple, where the animal life lives in harmony, where the nations will go up to Jesusalem to celebrate Succot and much more. This is what he was expecting. Swords into plowshares.
Appreciate this conversation as this is something I struggle with as a calvinist. What do you do with the millennial temple mentioned in Ezekiel? The sacrifices described there? I don't think you can spiritualize that. That's one of my main hangups. Also, why start the conversation with discouraging people from reading Revelation by making it seem like it's too difficult to understand. I think that's part of the whole council of God and we need to encourage people to read it, matter of fact God promises a blessing to those who read and understand it. God means what he says and says what he means.
Your line of questioning us good. I do the same thing I do with all the old testament prophecies... They were literal. Jesus fulfilled them all. Literally. So why would it be different for new testament prophecy? The answer is simple and obvious. It isn't different. They are literal and an OBVIOUS way to tell as an example is Israel existing once again. I guess we're supposed to believe that's just symbolic though? 😂
I didn't hear any discouragement from Reading Revelation. In fact Durbin says he read it over and over again and that it led him to his current view. He says that it's hard to understand, but so does everyone.
What passage of Ezekiel are you speaking about, specifically?
@@loganholdaway769The way he approaches the conversation about the book makes people feel it's not important. Just what I'm observing. The passage is Ezekiel 40-44. The measuring of the temple.
I agree 100 percent. JESUS blessed my life with understanding and heeding the warnings in revelation as soon as I was born again. There are so many miracles in my life that prove to me that revelation is definitely Literal, it is also metaphorical at the same time.
Jeff didn't encourage anyone not to read Revelation. He was encouraging us to take it as being very symbolic rather than more clear and literal. He doesn't want Revelation ignored, but he also doesn't want a plain reading of Revelation to get in the way of his systematic. Keep questioning and keep studying. If you study enough, you might even rid yourself of that calvinism.
I love
Brother Jeff and many many of the things that he teaches I agree with but on this subject, He is incorrect. We are living in prophetic times and in the last days. The Bible tells it very clearly and Jesus will rule for eternity
As others have stated, I also appreciate his views as they challenge me to study and stay sharp. There are a number of reasons that I cannot get behind post millenialism. #1 many of my life experiences make very clear that the book of revelation is definitely not "only" symbolic. The Millennial kingdom is an enormous Golden city that Jesus creates and it comes down from the sky.
Before I knew anything about the Bible God gave me many prophetic visions of what it to come and the main one was this Megalithic crystal city of light that would be on the earth. That's not a metaphor.
Jesus comes through the east gate, this hasn't happened yet.
There are many others but one that is personal to me is that before I was born again I had a girlfriend who was reading the necronomicon with me. I had no idea what it was but it was causing an enormous amount of supernatural phenomena. It was opening celestial gateways as we would read it and poltergeist like stuff was happening.
It culminated one night when she had me hold my breath as she hugged me and I felt a pop above my head.
All of a sudden we both could sense something flying over head. Over the course of a minute it became very clear to both of us in our minds eyes and it even began to physically manifest and create visual distortions like the invisibility cloak of the predator movie.
Anyway both of us clearlt saw that this demonic entity that was the size of a 747 had the body of a leopard, the talons of an eagle, the wings of an eagle, it had a weird human man head with long blonde hair it had the legs of a lion and a bear if ai remember correctly. It also had armor on and most importantly a scorpion tail.
It began to attack us and it eventually stung my ex gf in the heart and she dropped to the floor and was unconscious for 30 minutes.
It took me 11 years to figure out that this was the locusts fron the abyss spoken about in revelation.
My point is, revelation is definitely literal in many aspects.
Thanks for this talk and please keep it up. Growing up in a pre millennial church I was deathly scared of the end times. I was tempted to look for gaults gulch and wait for the rapture.
And humanely one got reason to be scared. But things getting worse and false hope being offered, actually affirms what Jesus and the Apostles were saying.
@@metapolitikgedanken612
The BIBLE says that Jesus was manifest in the end of times. It is what is written ! The "end of times" was the days of the apostles. Not our days !
" Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world , but was manifest in these last times for you" 1 Peter 1:20
The last days , the end times were in the first century !
@@framboise595 That's a creative reinterpretation of eschatology... playing with the term "End Times"... When it says that this gospel has first to be preached to all nations. Then it is def. not talking about the first 100 years of the resurrection.
@@metapolitikgedanken612
What ? What do you mean ? I'm not reinterpreting anything. I'm just saying what they said. They said that they were in the last days , in the "end times".
Did they lie ? Were they deceived ?
So , if they were , we can throw all their epistles in the bin.
The Bible clearly says that Jesus was born in the flesh in the last days .
It's not me. I'm not making that up.
The last days were their generation as Jesus clearly said. It makes perfect sense .
@@framboise595 The last days of what? They didn't suggest that Christ's return was immanent. Or that they had approached a stage where that could happen.
Trying not to text a book here, however:
Thanks for the discussion, though i am still very much a "premillinial rapture" believer. The verses and views presented could most easily be twisted or bent in either direction. Nothing presented was very solid for defending post-millennialism. Many verses and ideas were left out that support premillinialism.
Just a couple points to be made:
The false profit and the beast were cast into the lake of fire and Satan was chained for a thousand years.
Daniel speaks of 70 weeks of years focusing on Israel and not the church. Those aren't finished , there is still one more week left to be dealt with before Jesus' mellinial reign - that you say we're currently already in.
When did the 144,000 male jews prophesy?
When were the two prophets killed and left in the street for 3.5 days?
When do the sheep and goat judgments take place?
When did the abomination of desolation happen again.?
Do children lay down with the lions right now? And i don't mean inside the lions stomach.
When did the world almost destroy all living flesh? As per Mark 13:20
“Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
The dry bones prophesies of Ezekiel speak of bringing the Jews back from the diaspora, four corners of the Earth in the last days. We all know that happened in 1948. This is most certainly before the millennium not during.
In the millennium Jesus rules with an iron rod, However he's not doing so well, things are as bad or worse than any other time in mans history. You think Jesus woukd have things in a littke bit more order.
Stephen, the first martyr gave the pharisees a dying testimony of how the jews kept blowing it. The first time they always get it wrong but the second time they get it right. Ie., The first time Jesus came he came as a lamb to the slaughter and the jews got it wrong and rejected him. They thought he was going to establish his earthly kingdom. But the second time he comes he comes as a lion and after the jewish nation calls on Jesus (whom they will now have realized was their messiah, their savior) he fullfills daniels 70th week prophesies and defeats his enemies, coming as a conqueror and does establish his EARTHLY 1000 year kingdom.
As the old jewish customs of marriage and weddings go, the church is the bride of Christ. The Father tells the son when to get his bride. Nobody, not even the son knows the day or the hour. If we are already ruling with Christ in his melinnium when did Jesus gather the bride? When and where did we have our marriage supper (wedding celebration).
When was the church caught up or gathered? No one knows the day or the hour. The bridesmaids were told to have their wicks trimmed and to be ready, lest they be left behind. Ready for what if we're alreading enjoying the mellinial reign of Christ?
Jesus hasn't come back yet he stands at the right hand of the Father. He is not yet reigning on Davids throne. He told the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise" not "today you will be with me as i reign for a thousand years on David's throne"
And btw, its already been two thousand years since Jesus rose, how do you know when this "mellinial" reign began or when it will finnish?
We are all followers ofJesus our Christ, and our Messiah here. We believe in him and accept his free gift of forgiveness for our sins and are therefore saved. I understand we'll never agree on everything this side of eternity. And as long as we understand and agree on issues of salvation we have no major divisions. This is not by any means close to an exhaustive list of why I dont agree with you on your postmellinial views. There are doctorines all throughout the bible that fall apart if you subscribe to the post mellinialism viewpoint.
Peace and unity in Christ,
A brother from another mother
Great rebuttal to the post millionalist. But my question to you is why do people believe pre trib is new. Not old church history belief.
@@maxkelter3561 It's an easy cop-out. Say it's a new idea and be done with it. Typically said by those who don't know the answers to the questions I pointed out above.
@@maxkelter3561And thanks.
@@leomovalAbsolutely. They're either ignorant of the church fathers, or they're counting on others to be ignorant of the church fathers.
Thank you brothers , keep up the Godly work!
This was more or less the way it happened to me, even all the scripts you mentioned, and conviction over predicting things I felt that too Jeff.
This was a really good watch.
God bless you.
Historical pre-millenialist here, great lesson by Durbin.
26:52 so when we sight the verse about his ascension saying that "all power in heaven and on earth has been given to me", are we implying that before this moment Jesus did not have all power in both heaven and on earth? When I read that our God sits in the heavens and does all that he pleases, I read he is Sovereignly ruling all things just as he was when he spoke light into darkness.
Also really need a definition of kingdom from Jeff or someone who holds his view.
I think eschatology is the only area that I find myself unable to find complete confidence. I am premill and will continue to be until I am given solid reasons not to be. Being premill has never caused me to be on pause looking up for his arrival, but has given me many reasons to move forward in hope knowing no matter how it looks now (better or worse) that he will either come for me or call me home.
such an important convo... Postmillennialism is the answer, thanks for shedding light on this my brothers. Salute.
Listening to these guyz gives me hope.
So grateful... Onward
Hallelujah Born Again Pilipinas or Philippines Spiritual revival is coming so very, very near in my nation Philippines in Jesus Christ Holy, Mighty, Great and Powerful name I pray Amen...
Notice how postmillenialism must always be explained by someone. No one is reading the Bible on their own and coming up with that view.
It borders on gnosticism.
One problem I’m having is that when the beast and the false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire, and Satan is bound for 1000 years immediately after this, Jesus sets his kingdom on this earth, and rules and rates for 1000 years
always enjoy jeffs presentation of end times. Even as one that’s moving towards amil. so many astute points.
Nobody ever presents Isaiah 26:19-21 in these discussions.
Your dead will live;
Their corpses will rise.
You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy,
For your dew is as the dew of the dawn,
And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. (The dead in Christ will rise 1st. then we that remain..)
Come, my people, enter into your rooms (Not go, no, 'COME' my people.. that where I am you may be also)
And close your doors behind you; (Rev 4:1 a door standing open in heaven.., and the voice said, “Come up here)
Hide for a little while
Until indignation runs its course. (This indignation is God's wrath,,, Tribulation)
For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place (He is about to come, after His people are safe)
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
And the earth will reveal her bloodshed
And will no longer cover her slain. (This is the tribulation... God punishing the world.
...and God delivered Judgement upon the land of Egypt, but the people of Gosh en, Israel, who followed after His Commandments were not visited with His Wrath...as Noah and his family entered into the Ark, God closed the door and then He destroyed the world with water, but the Righteous He protected even though they had to pass through His Judgement...I don't recall ever reading of our Lord ever directing His Wrath upon any but those who rejected Him...by the blood of the Lamb we are covered and protected but I never read that we wouldn't witness His Wrath on those unbelievers around us...
@@alexandermacgowan9951 This world has never received the severity of wrath that is coming at the end of days.
EXACTLY. They always try to pretend those verses don't exist. Or, the RARE A-Mil/Post-Mil guy who will address them tries to claim they're metaphorical. In short, they don't ACTUALLY believe the Word of God.
@@alexandermacgowan9951We WILL witness it...from Heaven.
I could never understand when Jeff Durbin said he believes more people will go to heaven than hell. And as far as his eschatology goes, "we got a lot of work to do"
Yeah this was good. I have lots of thoughts but don’t have the effort to argue about themes in this comment. I will say I think the bigger theme o in scripture is that God is the only savior and he needs to intervene to save the world. As he does at the fall, the flood, Babel, Abraham’s call, Joseph’s dreams, the exodus, Jericho, the judges, David’s anointing , the destruction of Sennacherib ‘s army, Cyrus’ decree, Hanukkah (references w in the gospels), the incarnation, the atonement, the coming of the Holy Spirit , the Damascus road, and finally the second coming , which comes BEFORE the millennium according to revelation 20.why would God now suddenly stop intervening to Dave by his own right hand? That’s my thematic argument for dispy premil
My father-inlaw was kicked out of his Baptist Church for his Praetorist position. It's a sad state when divisions are created because of eschatology.
As an Amil guy, my chief issues with PM is the optimism in the secular arena. I fear it too closely resembles the Social Gospel movement of the late 19thC. There is lots of emphasis on cultural engagement which was exactly what the Social Gospel of now failed denominations are cautionary tales. If Conversion is accomplished by God, which I believe it is, and true converts are sanctified, then christians will grow in number. I still believe the Lord will have to return to Destroy the enemy finally. My focus should be on Converting the nations. I reject PreMil Dispensationalism because of its escapism.
Keep the Feasts of the Lord by the Spirit once for all time becoming a Temple Made without Hands 🎉
Everything makes more sense when you look at the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God separately - as they are two different kingdoms!
Things fall into place all by themselves: The kingdom of God is already among us and the kingdom of heaven is the coming earthly rule of Jesus on the throne of David in Jerusalem.
John the Baptist announced the KoH, but Israel refused. They always mess up on the first try. It will be established on his second coming.
My biggest problem is what Paul means when he says that the Jews will be regrafted in after the full number of Gentiles have been saved. Post mill relies on the Church and the Jews to be referenced as the same in prophecy but this contradicts that.
You are mistaken. I am full-throated covenant theology postmillenial and I believe that ethnic Israel will be saved based on the olive tree in Romans 11.
@@hudjahulosOh? I am very intrigued. Do you think that the redemption of the Jews can happen during or at the end of the millennium? I figure that it is a requirement for it to start the millennium because I see Christ's earthly reign to be from Jerusalem. Why do you think that the replacement theology is wrong if the post mill position stated here says that The Jugdement was against the Jews?
@@hudjahulos
Don't you think Israel has already been saved ? The full number of gentiles was reached in the first century , all the Jews scattered among the nations had heard about their Messiah and the rest that had to be saved was saved. Could it be the 144 000 we see in Revelation ? Maybe it was them who were "raptured" .
it's only me . What do you think ?
@@hudjahulos Istael being saved, as Luke commented here , comes after the Church Age and the fullness of the Gentiles. The Messianic Age offered to the Jews, but rejected, is then offered again and accepted by them. "...you will not see me again until you say Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord." This was specifically to Israel. After the intense pressure of the Time of Jacob's Trouble, they cry out for their Messiah to come and rescue them...and He will. Then the Messianic Age can come into being on earth because the natural Olive branches are grafted back at that time. (Preterism does not match what Jesus said about the Tribulation being the worst in human history. You cannot deny that the Holocaust was far worse than 70 A.D. And evern worse is yet to come with 2/3 of Israel being slaughtered according to Zechariah, sadly.)
Not really. Israel is God's "CHOSEN PEOPLE"...the Church as the Body of Christ is His "BRIDE"...we are NOT the same...but after all has come to pass we will ALL be ONE in our Lord Jesus!
Fast forward to 7:20. It's when the show starts
I am post mil and a Calvinist.
But when Jeff says it pre mil dosent follow history, you could say the same thing about protestantism in general. Not the greatest argument.
But I love Jeff Durban, I listen to him very often.
The Post Millennium theory would be the best for this world.
Jesus, defeating His enemies equates to His enemies of every generation, since the great commision was given, until He returns and defeats the last enemy, death. The Nations are clearly His people from every nation, past, present, and future, until He returns.
I do not see a world for Christ at His coming, I see all believers from every nation, from every generation, most will be resurrected, many will still be living, coming with Him to reign on the earth at His coming.
Yes, He is reigning now, defeating His enemies.
Which is a process, from 11 to all the fullness of our brothers and sisters are in Christ, from every generation since the great commission until the appointed time.
Amen...
Come on, more Christians = the population of the planet has increased over the past 2000 years, that is what we would expect, that is what the scriptures say, there will be multitudes of believers praising Jesus.
Who are the "rulers of this world" in this verse?
Ephesians 6:12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Demonic beings. Remember the Prince of Persia and the Prince of Greece from Daniel? Yeah. Those guys are the kinds of beings he's talking about.
I do not understand how anyone could read the Apostle Paul's first letter to the Thessalonians, in which he instructed it to be read aloud to that congregation, and not arrive at the understanding that Paul said to them that some of THEM would still be alive at the coming of the Lord. And that they already understood the times and seasons that they were living in, so that their perspective was perfectly clear. THEY were waiting for the Lord's return while still alive! I don't see how Paul could have been more clear than he was to those people in that letter.
Even more so , John 1 chapter 2 or the entire book of Jude. They said it was the falling away.
No one denies that Paul thought that Jesus could come for His church during Paul's lifetime. The church has ALWAYS thought that. Immanence is a basic doctrine of Christianity. But Paul also understood that no one would know when Jesus would come, and Paul never claimed to know, either. He just taught everyone to always be ready. And he was right to do so.
So, I don't see what the point here is.
@@stormhawk31 Jesus himself said that his coming would be in their lifetimes in MT 16:28 when he said some of his disciples would still be alive, and yet some would have been dead. How much more clear can it be?
@@makarov138 No, that's not what he said. Keep reading. The very next few verses, He takes Peter, James, and John up on the mountain and is transfigured before them. THAT was what He was talking about. Context.
@@stormhawk31 That IS exactly what he said! Jesus said that SOME of THEM would not die before his coming. Which implies that SOME would die before his coming. And verse 27 shows it to be a day of destruction and vengeance being poured out. That next week when they went up on the mountain: WHO HAD DIED? NOBODY! Can't be that.
Matthew 24:21-21 , Yahusha says there will be great tribulation like the world has never seen and will never see, he also says if not cut short no human being would be saved. The fall of Jerusalem was rough but nothing like WWII for example. These verses were not fulfilled in 70 AD or in the lifetime of the apostles.
Dispensational premilenialism clearly existed from the beginning. This guy showed his ignorance right from the get go!!
I didn’t hear anything about the rapture of the church…
Also, I guess I’m a pre-mil guy based on growing up in modern America; but if Jesus Kingdom is now and things are not supposed to be degrading and moving towards the end times and what appears in Revelation, what does it mean when scripture talks about Satan being the prince of “this world” and us as a church being told not to be apart of this world, and Jesus himself saying that His kingdom is not of this world? As well as Jesus making statements like give unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and give to God what is God’s? Im just a bit confused and would appreciate some elaboration on these points in view of the Post-mil viewpoint.
We live in a world where war and turmoil continue. How does this present age reflect the lion and the lamb lie down together and swords are turned into plowshears? The now but not yet seems to reflect much better the reality of the last two thousand years. 🤷🏽♂️
We're supposed to make disciples and absolutely. No one can agree on anything. It seems and everyone teaches everything else. And then there's endless stuff that isn't even taught.
As much as I appreciate these conversations, I'd love conversations that go into why things like this matter.
@@katebee3164 Well....no, it didn't. Iff it is a primary issue, their conversation goes from me asking "why does this matter?" to "Who's right/wrong?" Since there is such an array of thoughts, studies and conclusions, there seems to be no concensus and there's no clarity on what God says. I'm a firm believer that God WANTS to talk to us and to be understood, so this whole issue becomes a giant disconnect to me.
@@katebee3164 Could you provide the verses of those warnings? I know what you're saying about false teachers, and I agree with that, but it seems like you're referring to some more specific warnings and I can't put my finger on them right now.
@@katebee3164 Right, I get that, but once we're elevating it to a primary, we're then saying that of the ton of views on the rapture and pre/post millennialis, most are incorrect and put one's faith and salvation in jeopardy. You haven't told me your view, and I haven't told you mine, and I almost guarantee that our thoughts and views on these things aren't going to line up. I believe that you search Scriptures to prove yourself faithful, and assuming that I do the same, that means one of us it tangibly wrong and, therefore, following a false faith?
I agree that there's a lot of false teaching and a lot of false teachers. We're to be shewd as we go out. But since we don't have a unity on this issue among those that seem to be shown as faithful with the Word, I think it's a leap to dismiss disagreements on this subject as salvation threatening.
@@katebee3164 Oh, no, I’m not a Calvinist either, so no worries there. We probably agree a lot more than disagree.
I think he did a good job of presenting his view on why it matters. He talked quite a bit about the complacency that he thinks can come from a dispensational view. He even closed with that same idea. I think he's wrong on almost all of his theology, but I totally agree that we should have a faith and worldview that drives us to action rather than self-centered apathy.
to most of the people in here... the end times isn't of real concern... make sure your salvation is secure... Make sure you are developing fruits in your life through repentance... Make sure you know the will of the Father... Make sure Jesus knows your name. We never know when our time is up, why would we bank on living to the end times? Make sure you are ready today. This stuff is neat, but let's not dwell on this too much, learn it so you know how to teach others to prepare.
I believe Jesus has already won as He said....
All power has been given to me in ALL of heaven and ALL of the earth.
Who invented the rapture doctrine?
1. John Nelson Darby (Born: November 18, 1800, Died: April 29, 1882, he was an Anglo-Irish Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren and the founder of the Exclusive Brethren. Sundridge House, Bournemouth, England). He invented the false doctrine of the Rapture 1830-1833 AD and popularized it in 1850 to which it infected us today. His home was Leap Castle in Ireland’s County Offaly has a tantalizingly haunted history. From deathly trapdoors to dreary dungeons, the castle is known to be one of the most haunted homes in Ireland.
I once heard John MacArthur tell his church "We Lose", in discussing the end times. You could just feel the life being sucked out of the room. It was so hard to listen to. When i read the scriptures, i don't find loss, but victory. We don't lose, we have already won. If we have already won, why would evil completely take over the world? Is the gospel that unsuccessful in his view? For such a faithful man, i just do not understand how he could hold that position. I find it very difficult to remain under pre-mill preaching, when preterism seems so obvious to me.
But that was only part of his sermon. Jesus won by losing, we too, according to Daniel, lose for a time, so that we might be made pure. The church has always grown in persecution.
We may have more numbers right now, but do we really? When I listen to people in live stream debate, the Christians are clueless in almost every regard.
I appreciated this talk, it is stretching my thinking, but as of now there are just way too many holes, but I will find this is my first true deep-dive into this theory. I am 100% about solo scriptura. I have been studying prophesy all my life, I've looked at post mellinialism, it just never made sense. Maybe my mind was closed to it. But what you just said about MacArthur was insincere- taking that out o of context
Preterism is heresy.
We DO lose - naturally speaking. The devil will have his day. God allows him to achieve his ultimate goal for a brief moment. But it's all done for his ultimate purpose. You don't refine gold without fire.
We DO ACTUALLY win. NOTHING can truly harm is, and even if we die, we'll be back. God will unseat the usurper Satan, and the kingdoms of this world will LITERALLY become the Kingdom of God and of His Christ. The world will be purged and renewed, and there will be a thousand years of actual utopia on Earth - something ONLY achievable if JESUS HIMSELF IS the government.
Post-Millennialism tries to get the Kingdom without the King, and that ain't happening.
People who opt for post-millennial just don't want to leave right now they are enjoying life and want to stay
...or MAYBE they actually read their Bible and understood the Words of our Lord through His prophets and disciples as they are written and not as we would like the TRUE TRANSLATION and HISTORICAL FACTS to line up with our personal point of view simply to ignore the Truth and not properly interpret the reality our Lord has instructed us to be prepared to endure? A good tactician always makes sure he anticipates everything his adversary might have waiting to throw at him so he can be ready to face them whatever they might be. Just because someone is afraid to face the future by sticking his head into a hole in the sand will not make the actual outcome any easier to face. God will always protect his chosen but he has never promised us we would not have to pass through His Judgement when He is dealing it out upon His enemies. The sacrificed blood of our Lord will cover us from His Righteous Judgements upon the world and all who follow after the Satan's "kingdom". Remember, we as believers in Christ are not of this world even though we are in it. We were never promised that we would not be faced with hardships, only that through our Lord we would be victorious. I believe that our Lord has always told us that if we keep our eyes on Him, NOTHING can harm us! Don't surrender to your fears and expect to be separated so you can avoid living through God's Judgements upon all UNBELIEVERS...His Judgements are NOT meant for those who love the Lord and follow after His commandments! Death can have NO victory upon those who love the Lord! I'm sorry you think the way you do about "post-millennials". They don't love the world, they just want to be prepared to pass through the Judgements of the Lord and come through victorious at the side our our Lord Jesus Christ. As a "bond-slave" to my Lord, my pleasure is in serving Him and following His commandments...the world in it's present state has little to offer me compared to what my Lord has prepared for me in His Kingdom to come!
Correct me if I'm hearing this wrong, and I'm sure someone will, but his endtime view is based on the book of Revelation being metaphorical and not literal, (yes theres symbolism but to write it all off as such I thinknis a stretch,) how then do they get around the tribulation and all the judgments. What about how the book starts, the letters to the 7 churches? were they just church ages or was it all for the people prior to 70AD?
Im not trying to argure I'm just bringing up questions. Im pre-mil but thats not to say that it clears up all the questions. Its a mystery and its ok to sometimes say we just dont know....yet
The text doesn't say end of the ild covenant, he is reading jinto the text what he wants
Pre-Wrath rapture, Pre-millennial it couldn't be plainer if you remove your indoctrination about "the most symbolic book in the bible". Daniel is very symbolic as well.
That's one thing I've noticed, that it's a process and i see the world getting better and better every day and justice being established.... oh wait, that would make me insane if i thought the world was getting better in this "process". The world is getting worse not better, i think that has to be pretty obvious.
There waiting for the Temple to be built this is my understanding We the Born Again people is the Temple that is being Built for the Truth plus the Battle that We endured for these many years.
Thank you Jeff for this message and will fellow you hope to talk too .
That was by far the best i've ever seen.
Joel: the gifts have ceased in you perhaps but certainly not in others.
Other positions than pre-mill. "Don't take the word of God literally"
No millenniam. Kingdom is eternal. After 1000 years there is an event but the Kingdom still goes on eternally
I’m pre mill
I’d love to hear MacArthur explain premil to Jeff.
I love all my reformed pastors but don’t understand why hermeneutics dissolves just for the book of revelation specifically.
“The church” isn’t mentioned after chapter 4/5
Hebrews 9: 28 if your not watching it sucks to be you 😢
But there are also many holes in Postmillannialism. I have listened to lessons from Pastor Durbin. Some of his teachings and challenges on social issues are spot on. But I find him very "puffed up" on this theology. On this interview he came across humble, but when he preaches this at his church he is pridefully arrogant and if you think other than the Olivet Discource being "fulfilled" in 70 AD then you are foolish. Well Pastor Durbin, you fail to explain some aspects of this "fulfillment"!
•Jesus says after the gospel has been preached to all the nations. In Luke 21 Jesus says after the age of gentiles is "fulfilled". Did this happen in 70 AD. No, the church was just getting started and gentiles today are still coming to Christ.
•Jesus says there will be false Christ's performing amazing signs in the heavens. Signs that will lead the world astray. Did this happen?
•Jesus says it will be a tribulation like the world has never seen. Far worse tribulations and wars have happened since 70 AD.
•Believers will be persecuted and put to death because we follow Christ. Yet, Christ followers weren't persecuted at the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Yes, Rome was persecuting Christians. But at the battle of Jerusalem, Rome's beef was with the non Christ believing Jews. Christ followers were allowed to leave. So how were Christians persecuted when the Jewish temple was destroyed?
•When Jesus mentioned the abomination of desolation. Jews thought this happened under Greece 200 years before Christ came. And it did. The abomination of desolation by Antiochus. But then Jesus says that wasn't it. So then Greece is an example of already but not yet!
•Further more, scripture says the man of lawlessness will enter the temple and declare himself God. Pastor Dubin says 666 is Nero. But Nero died in 68 AD and never entered the temple and declare himself God. Nor did Titus at the event. Nowhere does scripture say the abomination of desolation is a burnt down and destroyed temple.
•Jesus says after the tribulation of those days the sun and moon will be darkened. And star fall. Pastor Dubin preaches, well Matt 24 is about 70 AD, thus this occurred in 70 AD because to him the Bible says so. Yet this event has not been observed yet. God calls us to compare history with prophecy. He has foretold empires, fall of Israel, his coming Messiah, etc. not just as "God said so". But we are to test prophecy with actual events.
So if Pastor Dubin is correct, then that would make Jesus a false prophet because many of these events didn't occur in 70 AD.
Rather, Jesus words are true and can be trusted. Daniel 9, 70 week prophecy says "desolations" will occur with Jerusalem. As in multiple. Jesus says that wars will occur and not to be frightened, because these are the birth pains, but the "end" is not yet. So 70 AD was part of the birth process to the end of the age. But then He skips beyond this point when Jerusalem will be desolate after the age of the gentiles/nations, when the world will reject Christ followers (not Jews in 70 AD), and there will be false christs performing amazing signs that will lead the world astray. Who do you think the Jesus rejecting Israel will call if a person who sets himself in the temple, performing signs in the heavens, and declares himself God? They will call him their messiah. Aka "antichrist" or anti messiah. The same meaning.
So what make more sense a fulfillment of gentiles in 70 AD, or sometime in our future now that Israel exists again and the gospel has been preached to almost every nation???
Compare today to 60AD. And before, or even yrs after. We are spoiled rotten. Sure there's evil, but to say these are last days, doesn't even make sense if you know history, even just a Lil bit.
@ unknown312
The apostles said THEY were in the last days. But since futurists want to make it all about themselves , they say that WE are still in the last days !!
Have you ever seen last days last for ages ? loool An in-depth study of the prophecies (with the words used , the things described) and what the apostles said show that they're all wrong ..but PROUD to be.
@@framboise595 There are scores of verses in the OT that say Israel will come back to her land in the last days. That happened in my lifetime.
@@ReLair88
But the problem is , the "last days" were the days of the apostles. They said it themselves.
@@framboise595 That was the beginning of the last days. When Israel came back to her land in 1948 that was the signal of the end of the last days. She surely didn't come back to her land in 70 A.D.--just the reverse.
@@ReLair88
If the beginning of the "last days" was 1948 , then how come the 1st century apostles said that Jesus was manifested in the flesh in the "last days" ?
Lets not forget that many things in Gods creation are fractal including the bible and It's many prophecies.
for instance the letters given to the churches in Asia minor are for both the literal churches in those regions, and also for us as Churches in this generation.
So I believe these prophecies about the destruction of Jerusalem and the abomination of desolation were partially fulfilled in AD 70 but still fully need to be fulfilled in the literaly end of the world.
Haven't watched the video yet. Thank you for it. I don't know what postmillenialism really consists of nor do I know all the details of pre. All ik is what I believe. Which goes off of scripture with nephiloms, sons of God in it. So I am interested to learn of this. From what I understand I'm a pre more so. I like to hear all views before I make a stand on something. God bless
Premillennial for sure. For me no one knows the day or hour. Pre wrath or pre trib rapture works for me. They are so closely related in many ways. I understand both hope for Pretrib but preparing for the long haul. Either way Jesus is returning for his church pre, mid or post rapture. Maranatha saints!
Too much scripture is left out. It sounded too repetitive to me.
You have to work awfully hard to prove your point labor-intensive Thessalonians makes it easy. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout With the voice of an Ark Angel and with the Trump of God And the dead in Christ shall rise firstThen we which are live and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord And so shall we ever be with the Lord.. That's so hard you have to beat the bushes to death to get around it The word is true You can't outwit the word of God With your Hyperboly and with yourself proclaim wisdom. We are to comfort each other with these words not Confuse... If you can't accept the rapture are you really saved Or are you trying to create your own outcome The rapture is comfort for those who believe and those who can't accept it I believe are relying on their own salvation within themselves.
Yes, what would be the purpose for Christians having to endure the wrath of God?
My view is that no one knows for sure what's going to happen. Jesus will return, but most of the details are uncertain. I listen to arguments from both sides, but no one can be dogmatic about eschatology. It's one of those areas where we just don't know enough.
I agree. Good teaching.
So many texts to stand on and he only had ones that proved him wrong 😊
There’s so many things that this man has misinterpreted it’s almost impossible to deal with as a summary in a forum commentary. But If he really is someone with intellectual integrity who’s able to change his mind, I would suggest that he put his integrity to the test, and listen to Chuck Missler’s teachings on end times eschatology, and then see if he still believes in post millennialism.
But in short the problem is that most all Protestant denominations along with Catholic doctrine have went along Agusta’s reinterpretation to pacify the Roman Government’s dislike of Scripture that wasn’t politically correct, claiming that Christ would return to do away with evil earthly rulers and rule for a thousand years, so Augusta, claimed that it was only an allegory of Christ ruling in people’s hearts, and not a literal 1000 year earthly rule. And in spite of hundreds of Biblical prophecies that say it is literal.
And because it goes along with something else that most Seminary’s don’t teach, which is the Scripture prophecy pertaining to Israel, of Christ’s return to fulfill the Jews calling upon their Messiah who they crucified, and will recognize, in the time of Jacob’s trouble, after 2/3 of the Jews have been killed. And which is the entire reason for the tribulation, to bring back to God his chosen people, as well as everyone else who repents and call’s upon the name of the Lord. And yes Jesus is Lord now, but His 1000 year rule on Earth won’t start until His 2nd coming.
When will you address the issue with Gary Demar. It seems like he is not being treated with any seriousness, but just dismissed cause he asks difficult questions nobody wants to answer. It blows my mind that a dispensational premillennial is within orthodoxy, but Uncle Gary is not. Help me understand.
He’s claiming that the resurrection has already happened. That’s been recognized by every church from the apostles until now as damning heresy. And they are trying to speak with him privately
Hyper preterism is heresy.
Believe me, I think dispensationalism is incredibly silly and unbiblical, but hyper/preterism is even worse. Outright heresy.
@@Spurgeon_General great handle. Odd how RUclips seemingly just now switched to not showing our channel names but the email handles instead though
I've been on both sides of the issue. I finally realized that it didn't really matter. We are in the Great Tribulation now, and we have been since the 1st Century. Scripture describes the tribulations that believers will face; martyrdom, wars, natural disasters, diseases, famines, etc. It's hard to say that all of those terrible things have not been ongoing for the last two millenia upon believers. All of the apostles died as martyrs. More believers were martyred in the 1990's than in every decade in history combined. The Catholic Church killed millions of believers. World War II saw more death than any war in history. We have lived privileged lives in the West, but our time is coming, and we have not been immune from life's trials and suffering either. It's guaranteed. Whether we are taken up before the return of Christ or not really makes no difference when at any time we can be victimized, murdered, die from natural disasters or terrible diseases.
My dad died at 63 from organ failure. My sister was killed at 22 in a car crash. She left a one year old baby behind. My losses are nothing exclusive to me. We have all suffered. Life is full of tribulations. The only way out of it is the end of our individual lives in this fallen world. As believers, we are to follow Christ, spread the gospel, and trust in God.
I do absolutely love Jeff Durbin. He is a true Shepherd of God's word.
Matthew 24:29-31
"Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... will send his angels to gather the elect..."
Those that do not believe these words of Jesus will not go in the rapture. If you do not believe Jesus, you are not a Christian.
Enough said.
Very true Jesus is coming to take those that are waiting for him, we are not appointed to wrath but salvation though our Lord Jesus Christ, the wrath of God is for unbelievers and disobedient,not the Christian The word tells us to watch and pray. And people Jesus is coming sooner then we realize.⏲️ The clock is ticking !everything had to get to this point before these things could take place. All is in place for his return!!!! How do you think every eye shall see him when he come back to the earth our cell phones, I am taking about at the end . Computers cell phones robot s look at the technology we have.🎚️
@@DebbieWebster-y9x The technology has existed for many generations, since television was invented and put into most homes. Yes, we are getting close, but there are still several years remaining. It is unfolding and the pieces are being put into place, but 2029-2030 is the timeframe when the time of testing truly begins.
Yes, the wrath of God is for unbelievers and the disobedient.
However the wrath of God comes after the tribulation. The Great Tribulation is the wrath of the forces of Satan against true Christians and all will be tested.
Many people errantly think that the wrath of God is the tribulation, but if you read the scriptures, the wrath of God is God's response for the evil acts carried out against the people of God. Blessings....
there is a position within Christianity that the "elect" are the ethnically Israel who came to faith in the Messiah.
Is this a re-upload? 🤔🧐
If you think pre vs. post you might be less prepared if it ends up being post. Which would our enemy prefer? Why does it really matter? It will be what it will be. Maybe just hope for the best and plan for the worst.
Now and not yet yes, because all the Living Stones have not yet came so his Kingdom and his Sanctuary are still growing.