due to bernoulli's principle, fluid velocity in a pipe is highest at it's centre and slowest at the boundary between the fluid and the wall of the pipe. what this theoretically means is that if the MAF sensor is closer to the centre of the pipe, then it will pick up a faster air flow
No that's not bernoulli's principle. It is true that the speed off the flow is lower closer to the wall, but that's because off the boundary layer. Bernoulli's principle states that an increase in the speed off the fluid occurs simultaneously with a decrease in static pressure.
In terms of air flow, the mountune flows less compared to both of the intakes Steve tested in the video. That could just be because the pipe is bigger than both of them though!
@@jamest8692 But flow isn't equal to mass of air, if you have an open cone filter your temp might be higher which might offset the higher flow rate, if the flow rate is actually accurately measured. Also maximum flow rate, if bench tested might not translate directly to much more flow rate on the actual car. Not sure which one is better though just saying flow rate isn't always the best measure
Mine is stage 2 95ron map and fuel with stock st200 airbox, panel filter and revo crossover..average maf readings are 172 g/s..i've seen 230 g/s on a stage 3 fiesta (s280).
After running my R-Sport cone kit for 6000kms on pumaspeed stage 1. It started throwing the P006a maf code consistently at low rpm. Switched back to stock airbox and no more code. Now im on an ITG kit its working great. Here in Australia summer id say the ITG kit is the absolute clear winner purely for the much better intake temps when paired with stock intercooler.
I understand it that the MAF sensor is not an air speed sensor. You could have a low air speed but a high MAF reading if the air was dense and cold, and thus cooling the hot wire more. So as the name implies, it's calculating the mass of air coming through by it's ability to remove heat. Worth noting is the MAF sensor is calibrated for the diameter of the air intake pipe at point of measurement. It's only sampling a small part of the air flow. If you increase the pipe size the sensor is not clever enough to know there is extra air coming in that's not passing the sensor. I'm all a bit vague on exactly how the figures are calculated. So these are just some general thoughts. It would have been interesting to compare the stock intake system as a benchmark. I swear many aftermarket kits that replace a manufacturers cold intake with an engine bay warm air intake actually negatively effect performance.
I think a smaller pipe would most deffinitely increase air speed through the housing if the turbo is sucking in the same volume of air to directly compare. The ecu is expecting x amount of air at full throttle and turbo is sucking in that amount. If the smaller MAF housing isn't a restriction, the air speed would definitely speed up trying to get the same volume of air through a smaller pipe. In regards to air flow from the filters, air can enter the SD cone filter from all around. If the ITG is hard up against the bumper, air is only entering that filter through the parts of the filter exposed to open air. Air won't flow through a solid plastic bumper.
Just to add one more thing. I believe another factor is that your itg filter seems a bit "tired" with pieces of it missing whereas the sd looks brand new. Maybe with a fresh filter, the itg could perform better. Also the design of the filter and the oil applied into it , is so thick to prevent dust and debris getting sucked into the intake, which may affect the maf reading if it gets dirty. Even so, temps are better compared to every other intake so it's a win
The reason you get more grams with the SD is that the tube has a smaller diameter. This creates more velocity past the the sensor. If you change the size of the tube the calibration of the sensor will be all to wack with the ecu as you can see by the results. Luckily the tube sizes are not massively different.
Hi steve great vid always👍. Ive seen my itg peak at 251g/s on the lufi gauge and easily does 230 to 240g/s on most pulls. Ive just purchased the vudu stage 4 filter and not had time to fit yet but will let you know the results . Collins have said theyve had issues with cars going into limp mode with open cones induction kit maybe because the tip of the sensor is lifted by another 10mm over the itg which more like the original position. I dont like open cones in the bay as they draw alot more hot air in , itg is perfect for me as i run a mjp style crossover pipe
Hi Steve, it should come down to basic fluid and thermodynamics, Good fluid flow comes from the ability for air to get into the system but also the ability to get out of the system. higher temps would probably be because it's closer to the engine and soaking the heat, along with reduced air flow over the filter. Once you unplug that air passage and put a velossa or similar on it, it will flow colder air over the filter, though this will only help so much as this will raise the ambient pressure within the engine bay increases without any faster way to get the air out. So by venting your Bonnet it will remove internal air pressure within the engine bay, allowing the hot air from turbo/engine to escape and not soak into the engine bay. You could do an experiment with those dumb cheap bonnet risers, instead of spending loads on a vented bonnet and turbo blankets. That along with increased air flow on the filter should give you the best results. Imagine a hoover that you block or limit the air exit from. The pressure builds up and you eventually lose airflow. Your engine bay is sort of like this however air escapes through the the gaps in the bonnet, bottom of engine bay, etc, so it never fully loses airflow. It's why when building a PC you should have fans sucking in air and fans venting on the otherside.
Hi mate, I'm looking to fit an ITG kit soon to my fiesta ST and do it myself, never worked on my car before without the help of a mechanic, what tools would I need for the installation?
Interesting video Steve👍. Got myself an ITG kit, still thinkering about an extra cold air feed from next to the mistlights, there is an area where some tubing might fit. Or go wild and go carbon. Keep the vids coming
My understanding is the maf element senses a known surface area of flow and references that to the known intake tube diameter to get the total flow through the tube even though it’s not measuring the whole tube If you made the tube bigger the air speed would be slower and without a correction factor the calculated air flow would be lower as the known surface area is smaller relative to the tube You could calculate the surface area by measuring the front protruding part of the maf element and the area of the circle then remove one from the other to give total airflow surface If you did that to both setups you could work out the difference in surface area between the two setups
The MAF housing size is critical on these to get the best reading. If the size doesnt match the stock Ford tube, the reading wont be accurate. This is why quite a few kits cause limp mode issues. I believe the ITG V1 and the Airtec housing are the most accurate housings to use.
I suspect there are too many variables at play, I have heard before that MAF sensors need to be scaled properly for different sized housings to give an accurate reading. Only way to test this properly would be to have a separate air flow meter after the fact that’s calibrated and gives a true reading of air flow into the engine.
If u open the pad to the sd airfilter (the one that is blocked by the catch can) maybe u can get the intake temp down. It's an easy mod. Don't know if it's worth it cause u will loose airflow through the radiator/intercooler.
Perhaps you need to ask SD the question about the intake temp. Does the Maf need calibrating to the positioning of the Maf. Could you lower the sensor in the SD to see if the temps change. It could also be the step is creating turbulence increasing the temps. Just a thought!!
Going to post before watching (dangerous) but on intakes I would focus on the friction losses downstream of the air filter rather than the filtration, as the filtration typically has a large area to minimise frictional losses. Stay with me. Turbo and engines "suck" air in, in reality this is achieved by lowering the pressure below the ambient atmospheric pressure, the trouble is you can only lower the pressure to 0bar absolute (a perfect vacuum) , so in reality the atmosphere is pushing air into the engine, as fluids (inc air) travel to towards low pressure. Imagine a straw in a cup, you suck and you lowering the pressure in your mouth, the atmosphere is still pressing on the fluid in the cup, thus the fluid travels upwards. What I'm saying is look at the straw (intake pipework) rather than some filter at the end. not the same but maybe helps smaller straw less flow. now im not saying a bigger intake pipework is better, but better optimised intake pipework (smoother) is better, its a reason you see velocity stacks to have a more "smoother" flow path, reducing frictional loss. In simplistic terms any reduction in pressure loss will increase the pressure at the turbo, thus more boost. This is a very simplistic explanation, and obviously doesn't cover temperature. Basically I see too much focus on filtration and not enough on intake tubing. some companies now are smoothing out the path downstream of the air filters and seeing better gains , see Eventuri. The reason i suspect manufacturer intakes can sometimes be improved is there is a limited bore sizing of the air pipework in the engine bay and manufacturers want the parts to cheap to produce and assemble, while also catering for NVH. Filtration however I think is pretty easy for a manufacturer to optimise very well. Watched it now, good video, I think as you stated mass of air is more important than flow rate.
Thanks for the video Steve, but I have a question. So you were hitting the max torque on the ITG at 1.66 bar. But you were hitting 1.78 bar to get maximum torque on the SD V3. This down to traction and road conditions at the time or is this purely down too higher charged tempered air being fed into the engine. I'd like to see track logs of this 👀
It could be the higher temps but I'm not 100% sure iv looked back on a lot of logs on the same road and boost is always slightly different but never as high as what It was on the sd filter. It appears to me the car had to boost more on the sd intake to reach the same air flow target. On the itg the car appears to hit similar airflow for less boost.
@@Sparkplugsteve thanks for the reply 🙏 I was something I picked up on the video and was bugging me 🤣 glad I've got the ITG then. Seems the best out of them all.
Nice in site to the air flow. Have you ever thought of fitting bonnet vents? To cool the engine bay on track or some type of aero to draw more cold air around the engine.
Hi mate. With the 2R tune. Pumaspeed say just a drop in filter is more than adequate. But some others say that something like an ITG is necessary. Have you tested this or anything to see if a lack of colder intake temps contributes to ignition timing being pulled or anything? It's hard to not take Pumaspeeds advice since they are the ones that developed the tune. It's very conflicting because I've got someone from a workshop saying they have done over 2000 data logs yet they aren't willing to share the data. His attitude is poor and it makes me not want to listen to him with how he communicates. Makes me just want to throw up my hands and say stuff modding my ST without clarity due to the information conflict.
I'm guessing the company you mentioned is stealthwerx. The car will run fine on a drop in filter or a st200 airbox/ mountune. The key to intake temps is the intercooler not just the air filter.
@@Sparkplugsteve thanks I'll look into it. That was my understanding too that the main focus is the intercooler (I am from Australia with higher temps here...) My understanding is the higher the intake temp the faster the turbo needs to spin to generate enough oxygen, which would mean more work for an intercooler to cool down the extra heat the turbo generated to find enough oxygen. But I would think if the intercooler is capable enough, maybe an ITG isn't necessary for a stage 2.
I've just fitted an itg to my standard st180, I had a mountune box on beforehand, and now it seems a bit more sluggish, compared to the mountune set up. Is this normal?
@@tolsonryan I have one on my Collins performance st, I think it's the sucking noise that makes you think it's slower. Where as with stock Airbox it just goes without so much noise. The Itg deffo picks up quicker through the rev range.
Love your videos learn something everytime...
Thank you Bill
due to bernoulli's principle, fluid velocity in a pipe is highest at it's centre and slowest at the boundary between the fluid and the wall of the pipe.
what this theoretically means is that if the MAF sensor is closer to the centre of the pipe, then it will pick up a faster air flow
Interesting point. Iv been thinking of experimenting with moving the itg maf sensor more to the centre like the sd
No that's not bernoulli's principle. It is true that the speed off the flow is lower closer to the wall, but that's because off the boundary layer. Bernoulli's principle states that an increase in the speed off the fluid occurs simultaneously with a decrease in static pressure.
Great video steve. I’d like to see how well the the st200/mountune airbox compares to an open cone filter.
Considering cars with over 400hp use the Mountune airbox I'd say it must be fairly marginal one way or the other.
In terms of air flow, the mountune flows less compared to both of the intakes Steve tested in the video. That could just be because the pipe is bigger than both of them though!
Yeah I always wonder did I go right with mountune
@@jamest8692 But flow isn't equal to mass of air, if you have an open cone filter your temp might be higher which might offset the higher flow rate, if the flow rate is actually accurately measured. Also maximum flow rate, if bench tested might not translate directly to much more flow rate on the actual car. Not sure which one is better though just saying flow rate isn't always the best measure
Mine is stage 2 95ron map and fuel with stock st200 airbox, panel filter and revo crossover..average maf readings are 172 g/s..i've seen 230 g/s on a stage 3 fiesta (s280).
After running my R-Sport cone kit for 6000kms on pumaspeed stage 1. It started throwing the P006a maf code consistently at low rpm. Switched back to stock airbox and no more code. Now im on an ITG kit its working great. Here in Australia summer id say the ITG kit is the absolute clear winner purely for the much better intake temps when paired with stock intercooler.
I understand it that the MAF sensor is not an air speed sensor. You could have a low air speed but a high MAF reading if the air was dense and cold, and thus cooling the hot wire more. So as the name implies, it's calculating the mass of air coming through by it's ability to remove heat. Worth noting is the MAF sensor is calibrated for the diameter of the air intake pipe at point of measurement. It's only sampling a small part of the air flow. If you increase the pipe size the sensor is not clever enough to know there is extra air coming in that's not passing the sensor.
I'm all a bit vague on exactly how the figures are calculated. So these are just some general thoughts.
It would have been interesting to compare the stock intake system as a benchmark. I swear many aftermarket kits that replace a manufacturers cold intake with an engine bay warm air intake actually negatively effect performance.
I think a smaller pipe would most deffinitely increase air speed through the housing if the turbo is sucking in the same volume of air to directly compare. The ecu is expecting x amount of air at full throttle and turbo is sucking in that amount.
If the smaller MAF housing isn't a restriction, the air speed would definitely speed up trying to get the same volume of air through a smaller pipe.
In regards to air flow from the filters, air can enter the SD cone filter from all around. If the ITG is hard up against the bumper, air is only entering that filter through the parts of the filter exposed to open air. Air won't flow through a solid plastic bumper.
If we could mount it behind the grill that would be perfect
Just to add one more thing. I believe another factor is that your itg filter seems a bit "tired" with pieces of it missing whereas the sd looks brand new. Maybe with a fresh filter, the itg could perform better. Also the design of the filter and the oil applied into it , is so thick to prevent dust and debris getting sucked into the intake, which may affect the maf reading if it gets dirty. Even so, temps are better compared to every other intake so it's a win
16:30 steve try porting down the step in the SD maf adapter into a nice radius see what effect that has
The reason you get more grams with the SD is that the tube has a smaller diameter. This creates more velocity past the the sensor. If you change the size of the tube the calibration of the sensor will be all to wack with the ecu as you can see by the results. Luckily the tube sizes are not massively different.
Enjoyed the discussion on AFR...hot air.?hmmm Keep em coming Steve, really enjoy the vids
That itg looked a bit old and the SD looked new? I wonder if a new itg would be a better comparison.
Hi steve great vid always👍. Ive seen my itg peak at 251g/s on the lufi gauge and easily does 230 to 240g/s on most pulls. Ive just purchased the vudu stage 4 filter and not had time to fit yet but will let you know the results . Collins have said theyve had issues with cars going into limp mode with open cones induction kit maybe because the tip of the sensor is lifted by another 10mm over the itg which more like the original position. I dont like open cones in the bay as they draw alot more hot air in , itg is perfect for me as i run a mjp style crossover pipe
Hi Steve, it should come down to basic fluid and thermodynamics, Good fluid flow comes from the ability for air to get into the system but also the ability to get out of the system.
higher temps would probably be because it's closer to the engine and soaking the heat, along with reduced air flow over the filter. Once you unplug that air passage and put a velossa or similar on it, it will flow colder air over the filter, though this will only help so much as this will raise the ambient pressure within the engine bay increases without any faster way to get the air out. So by venting your Bonnet it will remove internal air pressure within the engine bay, allowing the hot air from turbo/engine to escape and not soak into the engine bay. You could do an experiment with those dumb cheap bonnet risers, instead of spending loads on a vented bonnet and turbo blankets. That along with increased air flow on the filter should give you the best results.
Imagine a hoover that you block or limit the air exit from. The pressure builds up and you eventually lose airflow. Your engine bay is sort of like this however air escapes through the the gaps in the bonnet, bottom of engine bay, etc, so it never fully loses airflow.
It's why when building a PC you should have fans sucking in air and fans venting on the otherside.
Hi mate, I'm looking to fit an ITG kit soon to my fiesta ST and do it myself, never worked on my car before without the help of a mechanic, what tools would I need for the installation?
Worth noting for joe average the SD is 100 notes cheaper than itg, so excellent bang for buck.
Yes this is true.
Doing a headlight duct be the best option? You’d get the best of both worlds colder and more air
Interesting video Steve👍. Got myself an ITG kit, still thinkering about an extra cold air feed from next to the mistlights, there is an area where some tubing might fit. Or go wild and go carbon. Keep the vids coming
My understanding is the maf element senses a known surface area of flow and references that to the known intake tube diameter to get the total flow through the tube even though it’s not measuring the whole tube
If you made the tube bigger the air speed would be slower and without a correction factor the calculated air flow would be lower as the known surface area is smaller relative to the tube
You could calculate the surface area by measuring the front protruding part of the maf element and the area of the circle then remove one from the other to give total airflow surface
If you did that to both setups you could work out the difference in surface area between the two setups
That’s why a few people cut a hole below there headlight on the itg.
The MAF housing size is critical on these to get the best reading. If the size doesnt match the stock Ford tube, the reading wont be accurate. This is why quite a few kits cause limp mode issues. I believe the ITG V1 and the Airtec housing are the most accurate housings to use.
The supposed best intake setup is SDv3 Maf and filter with Revo Crossover to turbo.
I suspect there are too many variables at play, I have heard before that MAF sensors need to be scaled properly for different sized housings to give an accurate reading. Only way to test this properly would be to have a separate air flow meter after the fact that’s calibrated and gives a true reading of air flow into the engine.
Or pressure sensor before the turbo inlet. Less pressure would mean a more restrictive intake
Hi Steve, love your videos. I would guess the higher Flow rates on the ST filter are due to it being mounted higher in the inlet tube.
Thanks and yes maybe.
If u open the pad to the sd airfilter (the one that is blocked by the catch can) maybe u can get the intake temp down. It's an easy mod. Don't know if it's worth it cause u will loose airflow through the radiator/intercooler.
Was hoping you would try the sd v3. Also like you say ive had over 235 g/s with my itg. Its not very often though.
SD all day out the two
Re you point on MAF location Vs pipe size Vs post on fluid dynamics and flow rates...Can you put spacers on the MAF and run the test again?
Perhaps you need to ask SD the question about the intake temp.
Does the Maf need calibrating to the positioning of the Maf. Could you lower the sensor in the SD to see if the temps change. It could also be the step is creating turbulence increasing the temps.
Just a thought!!
The engine bay is very hot so it's sucking warm air in.
Didn't itg bring out a bigger pipe set up , me I.m running a ggr set up with a cool shaped funnel that directs the air over air filter..
Going to post before watching (dangerous) but on intakes I would focus on the friction losses downstream of the air filter rather than the filtration, as the filtration typically has a large area to minimise frictional losses. Stay with me. Turbo and engines "suck" air in, in reality this is achieved by lowering the pressure below the ambient atmospheric pressure, the trouble is you can only lower the pressure to 0bar absolute (a perfect vacuum) , so in reality the atmosphere is pushing air into the engine, as fluids (inc air) travel to towards low pressure. Imagine a straw in a cup, you suck and you lowering the pressure in your mouth, the atmosphere is still pressing on the fluid in the cup, thus the fluid travels upwards. What I'm saying is look at the straw (intake pipework) rather than some filter at the end. not the same but maybe helps smaller straw less flow. now im not saying a bigger intake pipework is better, but better optimised intake pipework (smoother) is better, its a reason you see velocity stacks to have a more "smoother" flow path, reducing frictional loss. In simplistic terms any reduction in pressure loss will increase the pressure at the turbo, thus more boost. This is a very simplistic explanation, and obviously doesn't cover temperature. Basically I see too much focus on filtration and not enough on intake tubing. some companies now are smoothing out the path downstream of the air filters and seeing better gains , see Eventuri. The reason i suspect manufacturer intakes can sometimes be improved is there is a limited bore sizing of the air pipework in the engine bay and manufacturers want the parts to cheap to produce and assemble, while also catering for NVH. Filtration however I think is pretty easy for a manufacturer to optimise very well.
Watched it now, good video, I think as you stated mass of air is more important than flow rate.
I would do either run without a headlight or build a duct through one
Good video Steve. Is the grill for sale in your shed? I’ve been looking for one for a while! Cheers
Thanks and sorry no Im keeping it as a spare.
Thanks for the video Steve, but I have a question.
So you were hitting the max torque on the ITG at 1.66 bar.
But you were hitting 1.78 bar to get maximum torque on the SD V3.
This down to traction and road conditions at the time or is this purely down too higher charged tempered air being fed into the engine.
I'd like to see track logs of this 👀
It could be the higher temps but I'm not 100% sure iv looked back on a lot of logs on the same road and boost is always slightly different but never as high as what It was on the sd filter. It appears to me the car had to boost more on the sd intake to reach the same air flow target. On the itg the car appears to hit similar airflow for less boost.
@@Sparkplugsteve thanks for the reply 🙏 I was something I picked up on the video and was bugging me 🤣 glad I've got the ITG then. Seems the best out of them all.
Which Obd adapter do you use?
Nice in site to the air flow. Have you ever thought of fitting bonnet vents? To cool the engine bay on track or some type of aero to draw more cold air around the engine.
Do both of the filters, have a cold air feed..?? Or are they just pulling the air from the surrounding area of the engine bay..??
Fitted out of the box as they are sold. Itg doesn't need a cold air feed as it's fine where it is. The sd may need one though.
@@Sparkplugsteve ahh OK..
Right so the intake air temp is reading the charge temps (after the inter cooler) just to clarify and not from the maf?
Yes correct
@@Sparkplugsteve At least we now know!
Hi mate. With the 2R tune. Pumaspeed say just a drop in filter is more than adequate. But some others say that something like an ITG is necessary.
Have you tested this or anything to see if a lack of colder intake temps contributes to ignition timing being pulled or anything? It's hard to not take Pumaspeeds advice since they are the ones that developed the tune.
It's very conflicting because I've got someone from a workshop saying they have done over 2000 data logs yet they aren't willing to share the data. His attitude is poor and it makes me not want to listen to him with how he communicates.
Makes me just want to throw up my hands and say stuff modding my ST without clarity due to the information conflict.
I'm guessing the company you mentioned is stealthwerx. The car will run fine on a drop in filter or a st200 airbox/ mountune. The key to intake temps is the intercooler not just the air filter.
@@Sparkplugsteve haha you nailed it! How did you know?
@TheDoctor46vr it was too easy to guess with your clues. Sack them all off and go speak to h sport performance about a trs stage 2 tune.
@@Sparkplugsteve thanks I'll look into it.
That was my understanding too that the main focus is the intercooler (I am from Australia with higher temps here...)
My understanding is the higher the intake temp the faster the turbo needs to spin to generate enough oxygen, which would mean more work for an intercooler to cool down the extra heat the turbo generated to find enough oxygen. But I would think if the intercooler is capable enough, maybe an ITG isn't necessary for a stage 2.
You spent some money on that old ford fiesta about time we had a new project on the channel like a focus at lol 🤣🤣🤣🤣
I've just fitted an itg to my standard st180, I had a mountune box on beforehand, and now it seems a bit more sluggish, compared to the mountune set up.
Is this normal?
I think I saw your post on Facebook. Na if its all fitted correct and filter isn't blocked it will never feel slower.
@@Sparkplugsteve that's the thing, it is clean and fitted properly, I just can't get my head around it.
@@tolsonryan data log both and see but iv run them on a few fiestas and never had a problem.
@@tolsonryan I have one on my Collins performance st, I think it's the sucking noise that makes you think it's slower. Where as with stock Airbox it just goes without so much noise. The Itg deffo picks up quicker through the rev range.
Cool 👍🇫🇷
Which one did you decide to stick with and why?
Itg. Better cold airflow
Mate what's with the ads?? Every couple of minutes I'm hit with 2, that's excessive. Makes me want to support a different RUclips.
No idea i haven't set them up like that and haven't watched this video back since i made it
8 ads 13 mins in this is a joke.