DIY HHO Generator Torch - It Kinda Works! - ElementalMaker
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- Опубликовано: 9 сен 2018
- Building and testing the new torch for the HHO generator. Its a mixed bag, but pretty neat.
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Fill up some balloons with that HHO, attach a fuse, and let them explode high in the air (Very loud, your neighbors will love it)
Sounds like a plan! Trust me my neighbors are used to very loud noises LOL
High-five! :D
i've tried that, oxyhydrogen balloons sound like gunshots when there ignited
That can actually permanently damage your hearing.
keantoken even better!
A small MIG welding tip for a thin gauge wire works very well as an HHO torch, I build one myself about 9 years ago. Depending on how much HHO your setup is producing you might adjust the tip a bit. For example I made the hole a bit smaller just by tapping it somewhat with a hammer. For a flame arrestor I used STAINLESS steel wool, and I packed it pretty tight. Be sure not to use standard steel wool that is not stainless. That might be useful to know for those who don't have access to bronze wool. 13,8 volt is fine, but you have to use at least 7 plates in order to prevent that it is producing heat. 1 anode, 5 neutral plates and 1 cathode. Also a PWM with current limiter would help. Just make sure that when you measure the voltage across each next plate that it doesn't exceed 2.1 volt. You can use a car battery charger as a power source, but be careful with your electrolyte. Start with a less concentrated solution otherwise you will burn the circuit breaker from the battery charger, or worse.
With 10 amps you will produce about 1 liter HHO gas per minute if you would do what I wrote above. If you can improve the surface area from your plates by machining them you can put more amps through them. In all those years that I follow HHO people I have never ever seen anyone doing that. Although one guy media blasted his plates to increase surface area, but I think it can be done even better by combined machining and media blasting them. Back then CNC machining was still very exotic. But the maximum amp rate is related to the surface area of the plates. By increasing the plate surface area you can build a smaller setup compared to a setup with normal untouched plates. The maximum voltage is related to the total number of plates. You can apply a higher voltage, but then you must use more neutral plates as well. Or you have to put several different cells in series, but it's easier to use neutral plates inside a single cell. Whatever the voltage is that you can use, divide it by 2.1 and that will tell you the total number of plates that is best for your setup. The same story with amperage, if you want to apply more amps you must increase the surface area from the plates. Keep track of the cell temperature, if it heats up either the voltage is too high, or the amperage draw is too high. So that would mean that depending on the situation you would have to adjust the total number of plates, or the total surface area per plate. The voltage per plate is easy to calculate so if the number of plates are correct then you have to adjust the surface area, or you need to lower the amperage draw by making the electrolyte less concentrated.
A dry cell configuration is more efficient than a wet cell configuration because there is no power leakage possible between and around the plates. A dry cell would be plates with gaskets between them so the plates are not submerged in electrolyte, but instead the electrolyte runs trough the plates. It is a bit more complicated to build, but most certainly not impossible. A wet cell configuration would have all the plates submerged in the same bath with electrolyte with no gaskets between them and it is therefore much easier to build, but it is less efficient because of the power leakage. EPDM rubber is a very good gasket material. The stuff that is used for pond liner and roof liner. Although it would be better if you can get that EPDM material in about a quarter inch thick.
A few more things, use 316L stainless steel plates, they are the best next affordable thing to platinum. And always use clean distilled water in addition to whatever you want to use as an electrolyte. I used drain cleaner, it's called Sodium hydroxide in my country, be sure that it is at least 99,9% pure sodium hydroxide. Be careful with that stuff because it will eat your skin away if it's concentrated enough. Apply in small dosses, stir well and wait for the result before you apply more. Make sure that you have a current meter to read the current while you're doing this.
Another very important thing, when you are using a bubbler or a so called scrubber make sure that you make a blow off valve or an explosion release valve just in case a flame get's there. If you don't do that you basically created a potential bomb. I made such a safety valve by using a threaded PVC cap, I drilled a hole in the cap so basically at that point I had a threaded rim, and then I took a plastic bag, covered the hole with it from the inside of the cap, and screwed the cap in position on the bubbler with the plastic bag sticking out underneath the PVC cap. That gives the bubbler a gas tight and replaceable weak spot in case a flame reaches it. It will still give a loud bang in case of an explosion, but at least you reduced the chance that sharp objects are going to fly in all directions. Make sure that the plastic bag is thick enough so that it can handle standard operating pressure. And never ever put HHO gas under large pressure like you can do that with air. It will explode.
Warning:
All the above is experimental, HHO gas is dangerous because it's the smallest and most flammable substance in the universe and it is ready to burn, all it needs is a spark or another heat source, like pressurizing it. Chemicals and high currents are also very dangerous. The combination of those three is even more dangerous. Don't do this stuff if you don't know what the risks are or when you don't know what you are doing at all. All the above is not a guarantee that it is 100% safe, so if you decide to do even just one of those things that I wrote be aware that you are doing it at your own risk and that you have been warned. I will not take any liability for anything that goes wrong. Always make sure that you are taking the correct safety measures for what you are doing. An exploding cell filled with highly corrosive electrolyte is very well possible. Make sure to be prepared for the worst. When you are working with chemicals make sure that you deposit it at the correct place in case you need to get rid of it. In some cases or when working with chemicals you might produce additional harmful chemicals that are bad for your health or for the environment in general, be sure to wear gloves and never touch the electrolyte or the plates with your bare hands.
I hope this will help you a bit :-) feel free to ask me more if you want. I like this subject a lot and I don't have the money to do these experiments myself, but I did build up some knowledge and I did some modest experiments myself. So I do know a bit what not to do, and what materials not to use and what materials you can use. I took the liberty to search for a useful website with lot's more information and with a free cell configuration program that helps you with some useful calculations. www.hho4free.com/configurator/cell_configurator.html
geeeezzz,,,,maybe you should write a book on this
ever thought about using tungsten rods?
I love that you tried to beat the fire out with the lighter the first time. Subbed
Awesome! A flashback on your first try! Object lessons are good so we can be sure that explosion fears are not merely theoretical. Of course this thing does not compress the gas and the contained volumes are small, so even a detonation of the full volume of these containers with atmospheric pressure HHO shouldn’t be fatal. “Shouldn’t be fatal” is the level of safety I am usually pretty comfortable with. I’d put the level of danger here at slightly less than a potato gun mishap.
i think i just fell in love in this channel :D the amount of TOTALLY safe science it provides is just too perfect
Your needle caught fire because steel will burn in an elevated-oxygen environment.
DiabloMinero it‘s called a thermic lance
Bloody fantastic mate. I'm not lying when I say that I was so engrossed in the video I could smell burning plastic. How strange. 👍🇬🇧.
Glad you enjoyed Bob! Thanks for dropping a comment!
If i remember correctly (which i probably dont) stainless steel burns in the presence of *pure* oxygen. In our atmosphere itll just melt, but add in that pure oxygen from the generator, and itll burn.
Congratulations, to your first thermal Lance!
Back when i was experimenting with HHO, had a flashback arrestor blow up on me. Found parts of it 30 feet away, up in trees and all kind of shit. Careful brother, this shit doesn't play. Awesome video as always!!
That was... awesomely hilarious!
Glad you enjoyed!
I had a flash back with my system, and i couldn't hear anything for a few seconds. Great video
Yessir this stuff makes quite a loud bang! Glad you enjoyed
Brando has Electrolytes , it's what HHO's crave ! LOL
It's also what plants crave! put some in the drinking fountains, too!!
Meltdown! Meltdown! Awesome!
it looks like you created a mini-thermic lance(what with the steel needle burnin' and all). Apparently it's how they cut railroad tracks, pure oxygen burning an iron fuel source like a hybrid rocket/thermite reaction all in one. Crazy chemistry, I'd love to see you make a dedicated iron fueled cutter in a future project :D
The needles were creating a miniature thermic lance
Aaaaaaaaand congratulations for re-discovering the principle of the thermal lance. Just discovered your channel, loving it, AvE (wait, what do you mean, it's not him ?)
Thanks, that was rather entertaining..
Excellent 👌👍🏼
Put a small valve leading up to the torch so you can shut it off and build up some pressure so you can put a larger needle on. Also did you sand the cups up to give you more surface area for gas production
I always thumbs up the video before watching cause it's always good!!!!!
Appreciate it Adam!
@@ElementalMaker NP! I look forward to all your upcoming vids! I know you can't do them every day as you have a life, but much appreciated for what you do upload!
Just glad that you and many others are enjoying them!
Your flashbackarrestor really scares me! I am dealing with a lot of oxyhydrogen every day. You need stainless steel wool. It also needs to be extremely fine to work.
Also if a flashback happens it will continue to burn inside of your burner. So please use something made out of metal. Alternatively you can build an arrestor using beach sand. The only problem with that is that it needs to stay upright all the time.👋🏼👍🏼
Great idea with the sand! I definitely need to order some stainless wool as well.
@@winsrrow8125 Sadly this doesn't work becauae the sand needs to bubble up in order to let the gas through.
Stainless steel wool will ignite with just a little heat in that high oxygen gas mix.
@@stoneworld7556 nope😄
+Freizeitflugsphäre It's true; stainless steel will burn in a high oxygen environment. Stainless steel wool is more likely to burn in a high oxygen environment due to the high surface area, It generates a self sustaining reaction; same as regular steel wool in normal air.
Thanks for sharing life with enthusiasm awesome
LOL! That was very entertaining! Thanks!
Glad you Enjoyed Robert! Thanks for watching!
You're very welcome, I always learn something and get entertained.
that is a catalytic reaction eating up the needle, taking to temps hot enough to destroy the metal. See how the heat travels down the needle then it goes white. Look up H-cat(very interesting subject) Scrap using needles. It needs a nozzle that gets thinner at the end. There is some finer brass wool in magnetrons, looks like a mesh washer, extract and unroll the sock and stuff your torch body with it, use the torch with wet brass wool. Have seen paint air brushed used on small torches like that. Push fit blow off plugs are also good safe pressure release devices for cell and bubbler.
Success, Dr. Frankenstein!!!
Partial success I'd call it, and sadly the needle has not yet reanimated like the real frankenstein's monster.
ElementalMaker You're too modest.
Knowing you, you'll keep at it and solve the problem.
@@peterk8909 I just got a couple items that should get things moving in the right direction! Stay tuned
ElementalMaker Ooh, ooh, ooh! I'm waiting with baited breath. lol
That was awesome! LOL!
The needle cathing fire was fucking hilarious
you could use a PC power supply, just join all the 12v rails.
with more current you get higher gas flow which will push the flame front away from the needle
nice, you reminded me there's something called flame speed , and it's different for different fuels. Hydrogen has the highest flame speed.
Nice project. Although, I can see you have less flow then you've hoped for. You might want to add a (weighted down) gasometer and a valve to fill a volume with gas and get a more predictable flow out of your system, while still using a slightly under powered PSU.
By the way, If you have a jump start kit laying around, these wont heat up as much when supplying power for a high current load.
Filling a gasometer with a stoichiometric mixture of hydrogen and oxygen is a recipe for disaster. Even a small container-full is enough to do serious damage if it ignites.
You can by Anti Siphon valves for fish tank lines. they do the Flash Back thing well.
Its what plants crave
I laughed way too hard and long at that.
Great video! But what I wondered was if you do not want to separate Hydrogen from Oxigen and are only interested in the gas mix you could also use AC, so you would not need an expensive dc power supply, just a transformer and maybe a fuse ;)
Love it :)
Hi. How about adding an Air/Gas arrestor in line. Like a J joint in the kitchen sink outlet or an Air trap from Beer making equipment.
I believe that if your voltage is too high you can add neutral plates between your positive and negative plates to function as resistors... or something like that, i'm not too certain of it
That would make a neat tool for soldering lol
That's one of my hopes for it! Among many other projects!
One thing i learned from my experiments was that running a sodium based electrolyte would oxidize the leads so i would suggest to switch to KOH instead of NaOH, good luck!
Good to know, I happen to have 10 LBS of KOH just laying around waiting to be used.
Your needles may be melting because they aren't able to dissipate the heat that builds up at the stainless steel needle interface. You may need to add a bit of oxygen under slight pressure to increase your outward pressure to reduce the heat build up.
Thanks for sharing your trails with us!
Pure oxigen burns steel
You need a ceramic nozzle. You can tie several of the 5 volt wires together to give you a little better power delivery. Those tiny wires aren't worth much by themselves.
A platinum needle nozzle won't burn, and the melting point is pretty high.
glass? will it survive?
The needle seems to start burning when you get it too close to the steel cup; I guess in free air the flame front is far enough away from the needle to not ignite it, but once you touch the needle tip to something hot it starts burning in the O2 atmosphere and won't be put out
Nice
are you using the 5 volt rail or the 12 volt rail? most power supplies have significantly more amps available on the 12 volt rail, like 20-30 plus amps on a 400-450 watt power supply.
5V rail actually had a higher current rating than the 12V on this particular supply which is what I am using in this video.
@@ElementalMaker but isnt the same 20A at 5V than at 12V. In terms of power at 5V@20A are 100W and @12V are 240W
The reaction has a standard potential of −1.23 V, meaning it ideally requires a potential difference of 1.23 volts to split water. In this case, more voltage means more heat rather than more HHO volume. Of course, if you have electrodes in series you need to multiple voltage and always you have some loses in a system.
Have you considered setting up a foot switch for the power supply? That would probably be useful in case worse things happen that really causes you to jump up in the air...
Wooow this episode was full of fireworks haha :D Don't set yourself on fire man
Glad you enjoyed! Always keep extinguishers just out of frame.
you can use thermal wool / or rock wool for flash back
Great idea! Would not have thought of that!
I freaking love it, was planning a small scale separator with a pair of 1/4 glass tubes, titanium mesh, a dumb car charger (until I built my atx bench power), but didn't think the scale would net much, and was thinking basically of what Sasha Z commented, but was left with a question that now translates to your little device, can hydrogen, oxygen, and or hho be safely compressed? I seem to recall oxygen and grease/lubricant don't mix well, and I think even diaphragm pump would have such, has any one knowledge or experience to this end?
I think the problem you need to tackle first is the output of the generator, then get the right material for the "nozzle". Power is actually pretty easy. If you can scrounge up a car battery and some decent wire(Are you seriously using speaker wire?), the power problem will be solved. Your average car battery can easily put down 500-700 amps. At a nominal 12 volts that's somewhere between 6000 and 8400 watts. Grab yourself a cheap battery charger and some heavy gauge wire(12 gauge or bigger should handle the power and give you a nice safety margin) and you're all set. At that level, regulating the power output will be necessary, but something like a light bulb in the circuit will keep things out of the kiloton range if shit goes pear shaped.
The nozzle is the next issue. You're trying to contain a flame hotter than the melting point of the material you're trying to contain it with. Ceramics, nickel alloys and tungsten should all be tough enough to hold up, but they're going to be pricey and possibly something that will need to be custom made for such a small application.
The Flashback your experiencing is in part due to this being a perfect explosive mixture of H2 and O2. (And as others pointed out the brass isn't fine enough to provide proper arresting of flames). Being an explosive mixture with an excess of oxygen (the oxygen from the generator plus the oxygen in the air) creates a whole bucket of additional challenges to arresting the flames.
Personally I would build a standard split cell so you can adjust the mix in a controlled method.
The needle as a nozzle is probably too reactive of a metal as it heats up the oxygen wants to combine with it (and the rest of the plastic torch body) just as you mentioned. Maybe try a different metal which is less reactive with oxygen under heat.
Yes it needs a whole lot of care.
The speed of a flame front with H2O is so fast that it will bypass stop valves. I know you are not using one. I used two and a mesh.
It passed the lot and blew the generator. It was fortunately in a cage! Needs extreme care.
I think the way to go is by generating the gasses separately as you suggested.
Put a regulator (i.e. intravenous drip thingy) on the hose, between the purifier/backstop(?) and the syringe. ,) Love your videos! Love from Norway
Solid ideas! Thanks for watching from Norway!
Cool video!
What can HHO GAS BE USED FOR BESIDES FUELING CAR AND A TORCH?
Explosions
I saw a guy do this on another channel where he used the nozzle off a welding torch instead of a needle.
He used 5volts at 60 amps.
Wow! that's such a beast. But with such, he's drawing 300 watts. Probably will generate a lot of heat. I did see an advanced one which even had a cooling fan.
I think you need a higher flow. Because the needle is getting heat-soaked to the point where the gas is igniting inside the needle. Try using a roller clamp from an IV set.
It's got what plants crave.
Sweet video. Had a few good laughs. Seen a video of another gent doing this recently. He used a Chinese hho torch. Consider that? Or want to go all dyi?
I may consider getting one of those someday, but I prefer to diy anything I can. If I can't build a good working torch I might have to resort to getting one
Where did you go to learn to do all the cool things that you do?
I've always been a tinkerer since day one, but by trade/degree im an ElectroMechanical Engineer which taught me a bit, but honestly I learnt much more just tinkering on my own than in college or work.
Maybe solder a 5mm length of copper wire to the needle *shaft* to act as a heat sink, or just a blob of solder might be adequate on its own.
That is one volatile gas! Scary hot !
Give me a steak burrito with some mole sauce and I'll show you a scary volatile hot gas.
What is the ideal voltage for HHO generation?
I believe around 1.2V is ideal, so my cell is way overvolted.
There is a space in the syringe where there is no wool where the hose connector is. Thats where the explosion happens
Lmao brother man!! But great job. Just a suggestion sir , what if you ran the needle to a ceramic tip such as on a calcium carbide lamp with perhaps a # 80 hole?
I don’t know perhaps that prevent the thermal dynamics from traveling to the needle..
I’m not sure, I do not have nearly your acumen.
Or perhaps hardening the needle to 68 Rockwell?
Take care. Great effort 👍
Thanks for the kind words Lee! I definitely want to give ceramic tips a try, just dont think I have any materials available right now to make it happen, but I'm always on the lookout! I have a bunch more needles on the way to test with, and picked up some new equipment that should really get this cell kicking into gear! New video coming up
You need to put a spring on the needle to whisk some of the heat off it
if you bubble it in laquer thinner it cant flashback because it needs more oxygen than what the tubes contain to ignite .
That was entertaining), any update on this?
At 7:58 you said "I guess I'll put steel wool in the tip" But you didn't show that. How did you prevent the flashback?
Would it be any more efficient with a lot more surface area?
yes, more surface area is always more efficient. A lot of the losses in electrolysis cells comes from ohmic losses when current flows through the solution.
could you make some kinda cutter (like a torch or plasma cutter) by using this HHO system?? i know it would need to be bigger but that would be super useful if one could do that
As someone that has dabled in glass blowing, I have played with some really cool torches. I was thinking maybe you could adapt a propane micro/soldering torch head for this application? I really don't think using suringe and deedle is the best way to go for HHO torches, other that for a proof of concept which you certainly proved.
You should have SOME kind of flow regulator and a way for it to offgas away from the torch and such and for heavens sak PLEASE put a shyt off valve on the body? I jus recently found this channel I don't want to loose ya to a hydrogen exploaion. Although that would be a hell of a cool way to go I guess lol.
Take care. Be safe ;)
Ha! Yeah bud, you're going to stop a prime hydrogen detonation with coarse brass wool.
World tiniest thermal lance ;)
**That also self destructs
Solutions from a iliterate
1-Maybe a even thinner needle can increase the speed of the gas, so the actual flame don't touch the needle?
2-Increase the thermal mass of the needle? so it never gets hot enough to burn.
Both solid ideas, I am thinking about creating some kind of heat sink for the needle to keep the heat out of it.
@@ElementalMaker the flame is so narrow and extremly hot. It will destroy anycase. Probably the better idea is like carcharoth said reduccing the inside diameter or increasing the presure
You might want to lookup "oxygen lances" which is what you are making a baby version of. That is why your needles are burning up. The iron in the needle is burning in the presence of the oxygen. The tip needs to be made of something less reactive.
Yep that's exactly what happened! From some additional research, it looks like I need more volume to keep the flame front somewhat in front of the needle, and more volume to help keep the tip cool. As of today, both of those issues should be solved. New video in progress.
A fine tipped mig welding tip would work better unless your goal is to melt needles other then that its awesome I like it
Very good point, the copper would quickly sink the heat away. I'll definitely do that 👍
I think the cups are catching gas inside decreasing the amount surface area that is submerged in your tank
If you take a look at the build video, I drilled gas vent holes in the top of each cup to allow gas to escape to prevent that very problem from occurring.
jumper cables, car battery, and old propane torch should do the trick!
This is how neanderthal became extinct, or how he learned to be left handed
I like it
Insane. I want one. Did you melt your mat?
Its a pretty neat toy for sure! Got some items today that should drastically up the power! And yeah, there are a couple new burn spots on the mat LOL
Try using potassium hydroxide instead of sodium hydroxide. I like KOH better when I'm doing electrolysis experiments just from my own experience, but I can't say one is better than the other overall.
I think a rewound microwave oven transformer with a rectifier will do nicely for a power supply...
I just happen to have three old microwaves ready to be picked apart for the MOT's!
I read somewhere if you bubble your gas through methanol it will absorb a small amount of your oxygen and give you a more stable flame
“Think I’m out of needle tips”...and brown pants 💩...LMAO
BTW: Electolyte will eat thru just about any metal eventually, Platinum is the only long lasting electrode but bloody expensive. I believe using AC instead of DC will prolong life of the electrodes.
PS Chinese use copper headed torches; maybe it more resilient to HHO?
Could steel wool work instead of brass?
Yeah, it will just corrode pretty quickly
You are running the voltage too high and producing a lot of extra heat. The reaction starts at around 1.46V and runs endothermic up to a about 2V. Then exothermic for anything higher.
At the voltage you are running you would need to make it into a max of 8 sets of series wired plates to bring the voltage down into the proper range. Another fellow said 7 which probably also works fine but likely pushes it into the exothermic region slightly. Though it might produce more gas (less efficiently) at that operating point.
Dont know if a fuel injection nozzle would be better than a needle ??
Great job try using a ball pump needle that's what I use
You need more flow through the tip, that will require more pressure,it keeps the heat away from the tip.
Would hho work in a foundry
Pressure is required to keep the flame away from the torch head.
It is likely your needle is melting under the concentrated heat.
It doesn't have the capacity to dissipate enough heat to survive.
watch: oxy acetylene torches from this old tony. he explains the fuel oxygen system more in depth.
Try to change the boiler flame arrestor in time of water use metanol + boric acid and usualy using the 12v of the pc power supply can delivery about 25-30A at 12V, is between 300 and 360w
Now your only using 80w... (5V, 16A)
I think is something more power
Ok I have a couple of comments. First after seeing all the play and jigglys of the lathe I agree that is the worlds crappiest lathe. But you know what? If I had it I'd use it because I don't have a lathe at all and sometimes the crappiest is better than nothing. Second when you were having trouble putting the flame out as it ate your needles I personally would have just pulled the tubing off of the water chamber. That being said if you didn't do that for a reason I'd love to hear why. Maybe I'm overlooking something. Anyhow keep up the good work.
The tubing is on those hose barbs quite snugly, it's a true pita to pull it off
Try mig welding tips brazed into all copper fittings.....
What is the fusion liquid bonder did you use and where can I get it in Canada?
It's pretty new to the market here in the US as far as I know. May not have made its way north quite yet. It's nice though being a one step primer and cement. Plus it's clear.
@@kennethyoung5936 glad your enjoying them Kenneth! I'll keep the content coming!
It looks like its on amazon: amzn.to/2wZOmvC hopefully that isn't an amazon product exclusive the the US
Im not kidding, I have watched Idiocracy more then 100 times.
And that thing really is fuck'n nuts, so you need to fill a tyre with it :D
that small flame might work for precision soldering?
way too hot
@@svenhoek brazing, then?
Love this video! Have you seen the RUclips upload "Super Efficient Graphite Dry Cell Hydrogen Generator" by Robert Murray-Smith? Looked like a super simple build.
So don't try to melt stainless with a stainless needle. The sustained temperature built up on the cup, that can dissipate the heat better, is heating the very thin walls of the needle to the point where any free O2 can have it's way with it when it starts to melt.Maybe try this? 'Tungsten Carbide Tube .044" OD x .008" ID X 6" L' .Melting point at 2,870 °C (5,200 °F) I have no Idea, but it looks worth a try.
Yep.. Definitely much safer for me to have you do this. So.. ready to scale up right?
Damn right I am 👍
Is it possible that you've been holding your needles too close and that's why they melted?
I think that is what started them melting, and then the oxygen just began rapidly oxidizing the steel.
Science, common Sense, sex jokes, it's everything you could ever want in life!
Thanks Kim! Glad your enjoying! Thanks for dropping a comment 👍
That needle burning was like a micro thermal lance. Maybe do it on purpose next time and see what you can cut with it.
That's exactly what was happening, good eye. Ive since upgraded the power supply so its getting alot more gas, which is helping to keep the needle tip cool, but it would definitely be fun to experiment with a thermal lance.