*Gandalf's plan for getting into Mordor...* Gandalf: Hey, Sauron, look behind you! Sauron: Say, what? (Looks behind himself.) Frodo slips past and into Mordor.
A good point to start is if Elrond gave his ring, Vilya, to Saruman. That would put Gandalf and Saruman on equal ground. Saruman's downfall started out of jealousy of Gandalf from the fact that Cirdan gave his ring, Narya, to Gandalf. Saruman always knew, or suspected, about this and took offense because he was technically the head of the Istari or Wizards. Then again, this is highly speculative. The whole point of creating the character of Saruman, in my opinion, was to create a tangible enemy.
I thought it was so there would be an enemy that was thought to be an ally to go with the part about how both melkor and sauron's greatest weapon had always been treachery.
Yes, even Christopher Lee explained how Saruman is supposed to be the main antagonist of the fellowship. Sauron not even having a tangible body and having no idea that the fellowship planned to destroy the ring, doesn’t work really as well as Saruman that actually knew who had the ring.
I always thought the most marvelous thing about this story is that the Ring just HAD to be found by the most unlikely people imaginable. It was found by two Hobbits, Smeagol and Bilbo, it was also kept and borne by two more Hobbits, Frodo and Sam. This was very important for Tolkien. Because from a, say, Second Age viewpoint, from the viewpoint of the wise and powerful, this was madness. And yet, we know that there just was no-one powerful enough to bear the Ring and not be corrupted by Sauron. Saruman, even a "good" Saruman, wouldn't have understood this. Gandalf does understand it, even though only by intuition at the start. So, even with all the things around the Ring quest going better with Saruman remaining on the good side (sooner acting against Dol-Guldûr, no Uruk-Hai, Rohan and Gondor remaining stronger and more vigilant) you always end up with the question: How do you destroy the Ring and who does it? Brute force won't get you to Mordor and Mount Doom, even with a stronger Gondor and Rohan and Lothlorien. Two Istari, one of them with Narya in his pocket, cannot sneak into Mordor without being noticed by Sauron. Would they really have been able to bring the Hobbits (two of them or all four?) to Cirith Ungol and leave them there? Would they have even thought of Cirith Ungol without Gollum? What about Shelob? What about giving up the Ring in the end, without Gollum "helping out"? So, in the end, Saruman remaining good would have smoothed the way to Mordor but not much more. Maybe all the tribulations on Frodo's way, the breaking of the Fellowship, Gandalf's death - all the things gone wrong, were absolutely necessary to end up with the most desperate of plans: two little Hobbits walking to the Sammath Naur.
Much as it would pain Gandalf, in this scenario I'm pretty sure one or the other of the Istari would have tossed a Hobbit over the edge. Or, perhaps in that instance, at the height of the Ring's power, a fight breaks out for possession. One Istari could take it from either Bilbo or Frodo with really no problem, but two Istari might come to blows over it, resulting in an accidental drop into the Cracks.
In the end you mention that Frodo might be more resistant to the Ring because there is no Shelob Stab or capture by the orcs. I'd like to think the fact that the Fellowship didn't go through the Moria also plays a role there. No Gandalf apparent death, no scary and burdening talk with Galadriel, I guess no fight with Boromir... That Frodo is less emotionnally weary, less guilty, more accompagned by all the Hobbits and Gandalf. That's an immense difference for the last minute. And at the Crack of Doom, I think Gandalf and his ring can help him too.
Grima Wormtongue was also working for Saruman, so maybe without evil-Saruman, there is no poisonous influence on Theoden, and Rohan is much stronger and more alert. Though I guess maybe Grima was already going to be Theoden’s advisor, regardless. I think Theodred’s death was also because of Saruman.
Yes, and theodred was deliberately killed when the orcs and Uruk of Saruman when he attacked the fords of isen, a location of strategic importance in the gap of Rohan. His goal was to demoralize- and through treachery of Grima, chief advisor to the king- poison the mind of Theoden king.
Hobbit version "TA 2850 - Gandalf reenters Dol Guldur in secret and confirms that its master is indeed Sauron returned TA 2851 - Gandalf urges the White Council to attack Dol Guldur, but is overruled by Saruman (who seeks the One Ring for himself)" So most likely, the White Council would have acted in TA 2851, had Saruman remained good. This is 90 years before the Hobbit, so yes, there is no reason for Gandalf to leave the group, unless he has some other issues to deal with. Either case, this by itself probably doesn't change the rest of the Hobbit much, until it comes the time to head back. I don't think it is that unreasonable to assume that Gandalf doesn't instantly catch on that this might be the One Ring; it is just later that Bilbo's extended lifespan starts clanging some warning bells. Even if Gandalf would act already in 2942, Sauron would have had even more time to settle in Mordor than he had in the original timeline: 91 years vs. 76 years. Also, Mordor already would have had plenty of orcs, as evidenced by the near constant skirmishing in Ithilien in the latter half of the third millenium TA. That being said, a MAJOR advantage would have been that Sauron had no idea that the One Ring had been found. He doesn't find this out until Gollum is captured in 3010s or so. This means that the Ringwraiths are probably chilling out in Minas Morgul rather than looking for the One Ring. So it is possible that in this timeline, the Fellowship (much more geared towards destroying the Ring rather than sidequesting in Rohan and in Gondor) manages to sneak to Mount Doom and destroy the Ring, without the War of the Ring happening. LotR version If Saruman stays good, there is no Wormtongue to spill the beans about Shire to the Ringwraiths. Also, as other people have already noted, there would be no need for Saruman to lure Gandalf to Orthanc. Thus, Gandalf meets with Frodo in Shire earlier and they have an uneventful trip to Rivendell. No Morgul Blade at Weathertop, either. Given the Providence at work in LotR, it is very well possible that the West-door would have opened for Gollum (Gandalf could do it, although I am not sure if Aragorn is said to have traversed the length of Moria), allowing him to start following the Fellowship from Eregion onwards. It is also possible that at being introduced to Aragorn, Saruman might have given him the Palantir (and had he been looking for the One Ring himself for good purposes, he could have Isildur's stuff to hand to Aragorn as well). Without Saruman's treachery, Theoden and Theodred would be hale and hearty, ready to call the Muster of the Riders, and bring 12000 Rohirrim to the Pelennor Fields, double the army that arrived in the Return of the King. Assuming Denethor is not too much of an ass (Saruman's Voice might become useful there, as well as Boromir's acceptance of Aragorn's claim), Aragorn would hear about the attacks on the coasts, and might choose to call the Oathbreakers at the Stone of Erech anyway, without going through the Paths of the Dead from Rohan. I doubt Denethor could have stood against the near-universal acclaim Aragorn would have received from saving Gondor first from the Corsairs and then breaking the enemy's back at Pelennor. That being said, the timeline is not totally clear, either. They lose like a month in Lorien, but by sidestepping Lorien, they would not get delayed. However, I can see the decision made to try to distract Sauron from Mordor (and Gandalf-led fraction of the Fellowship trying to sneak in) by having Aragorn use the Palantir and show himself to Sauron, thus triggering the attempt by Sauron to attack Minas Tirith sooner rather than later, using what armies he has available. However, this likely means that some of his Easterling and Southron armies would be still enroute, not able to participate in the Pelennor Field, which might mean that the reinforced Rohirrim army is already enough to crush them. The joker here is the absence of Merry with a barrow-blade, and likely an absence of Eowyn as well, as she would be less bitter about her lot, with a stronger Theoden and lack of Grima. So maybe there would have been a showdown between Saruman and the Witch-King, or something like that.
But then you always end up with the question: How do you destroy the Ring, and who does it? Gandalf and Galadriel were quite clear that a powerful being of the West taking it would be incredibly dangerous. So, who gets it to Mount Doom? Would they really have been able to destroy Sauron's army and then march into Mordor to get it to the Sammath Naur? And what if nobody had been able to cast it into the fire? Without Gollum around?
Great post! I do have one thing to say about it though: no, Sauron wouldn't have had "more" to prepare himself. Firstly, the way you're comparing times of preparation kind of assumes that when Sauron goes back to Mordor, he starts anew from 0, but I don't think that's the case. As you say it yourself, it's not like Mordor was idle when Sauron was in Dol Guldur: it was actually preparing for the return of the Dark Lord, so in the actual book, he actually did got those 91 years + 76 more. Given, he might be a bit more efficient for the 91 by assuming direct control over Mordor earlier, but I don't think that's enough to compensate for the lack of the 76 between the Hobbit and TLOTR. And secondly, Sauron himself would have been weaker, because he would have had less time to rebuild his own strength AND because he would have gotten slapped a good time by the White Council instead of operating a strategical retreat.
Eowyn would probably still be around. She’s headstrong and enough of a feminist to still pull off a Mulan and ride into battle to fight the Witch-king. They can also make a trip to Lothlorien if they go through the Pass at Caradhras without Saruman using his spells to influence the weather there. (If anything, maybe Saruman can use his magic to ensure beautiful, clear skies over the Misty Mountains until the Fellowship makes it through.) And then they can still make a detour to Isengard to seek Saruman’s counsel and use his palantir. (I highly doubt Saruman would give up his palantir altogether so easily though.)
@@mechadoggy Saruman's calling of the snowstorm is purely a movie thing. In the books, it is Caradhras the Cruel itself that is the cause for the storm, i.e. snowstorms are common up there. As for Eowyn, part of the reason why she is so keen on going out on a death-ride is that she is lacking hope (thinkng Aragorn dead in the Paths of the Dead and the depleted Rohirrim all going to die at Minas Tirith), and she had already suffered from Grima's poisonous whisperings. As Gandalf puts it in the Return of the King: "‘My friend,’ said Gandalf, ‘you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on. ‘Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Théoden’s ears? Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among their dogs? Have you not heard those words before? Saruman spoke them, the teacher of Wormtongue. Though I do not doubt that Wormtongue at home wrapped their meaning in terms more cunning. My lord, if your sister’s love for you, and her will still bent to her duty, had not restrained her lips; you might have heard even such things as these escape them. But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?’" Without Saruman's treachery and hence Grima's treachery, this would not happen and Theoden would have remained strong and healthy, as well as Theodred, who was like a big brother to both Eomer and Eowyn, would have been alive still. Hence I doubt Eowyn would have been so keen on going with the Muster of the Rohirrim to the War. But reasonable men can disagree on that point. :)
Hey Tolkien Geek! This is a very interesting topic, and I'm glad you covered it! Maybe you could do a part II on things in Tolkien's Legendarium that we know nothing about? I found that video very interesting. Love your videos, keep them up!
If Gandolf is with the dwarfs going through Mirkwood and they don't get caught by the wood elves then the elves probably aren't apart of the battle at the lonely mountain making it the battle of 4 army's instead of 5 and the orcs might win in that case
Gandalf would also not have been delayed, and would have been able to meet them at Bree as planned - therefore would've been present at Weathertop, and Frodo would not have been stabbed by the Witch-King.
TBH if Gandalf found out about the Ring during the Hobbit and with Saruman still on Team Good Guys. They might could have, i can't believe i am saying this, flew into Mordor using the Eagles.
This was great! I love these what-ifs! I could almost imagine an alternative Lord of the Rings' story being written on this and having it be just as interesting. I would hope a non-corrupted Saruman and/or Gandalf could help Bilbo throw the ring in.
I think that in the second scenario (which I think would play out if Bilbo somehow managed to keep the Ring a secret from Gandalf until his little trick at his 111st birthday), Saruman probably would have: 1) been present at the council of Elrond (he's the White Council leader and Rings of Power specialist, after all); 2) gone to Minas Tirith and lead the Free People in the war, fulfilling his job as the White Wizard, as Gandalf did in the actual books, leaving Gandalf free to go with Frodo.
I agree, plus even if Saruman remained good, I think he still would be too proud to associate himself with a lowly hobbit like Frodo. So yes, he would go to Minas Tirith and rally the armies while Gandalf can help escort Frodo to Mt. Doom.
Bilbo's 111 birthday was in 3001 T.A and Saruman became ensnared by Sauron's will in 3000 T.A! It would have been game over for the Free People if Gandalf took Bilbo or Frodo, as he had just got the ring and would not be as attached, and there was more hope if Frodo carried the ring then, it would be too late!
In the second scenario I wonder if Gandalf could have used his powers of instilling hope and courage in others to give Frodo enough strength to actually throw the ring into the fire.
And in the worst-case scenario, Gandalf can simply toss Frodo into the lava, ring and all (which is what Elrond should have done to Isildur in the movie)
My only question would be is would Saruman have been as interested and knowledgeable about the ring and it's history if he hadn't started turning bad and had the desire to possess it? Like the bright kid at school who doesn't have that *desire* to become a doctor etc. coasts through school, could read books in the library but doesn't bother. So Saruman never reads the book/scroll about how to identify the ring. Still wants to overthrow Sauron but isn't interested in the ring.
The ring is the key to defeating Sauron and that's Saruman's whole reason for being there. Even if Saruman never went bad, he'd have plenty of motivation for learning about the ring.
@@Ansatz66 That's the thing Saruman is said to have already already desired the ring and power when the white council was formed (500yrs before the events of the Hobbit). Because according to the Unfinished Tales he discovered that Gandalf had been given Narya and begrudged the gift. If it wasn't for the desire for the ring he might even have gone the way of the blue wizards.
Most wizard characters I've seen or read about basically fall into to characters: those that desire knowledge in order to gain power, or those that desire power in order to gain knowledge. I'm making the assumption that even if Saruman hadn't become evil, he more or less would have the same personality, and would want to gain as much knowledge as possible as a matter of pride. So he'd probably want to know as much as possible about the ring (and anything else) out of both sake of curiosity and to show off what he knows to anyone else, so I think he'd still know just as much about it, if not more. It's his pride that led to his downfall, but it's a pride he'd still have even if it didn't, IMO.
In my head Canon Saruman is the person that wrote the Ring Verse before he turned selfish and ambitious and began scheming for himself. He was one of the few people in Middle Earth who would of had all of the information needed to compose the poem. I know Sauron created the couplet that is inscribed on the Ring, probably using those words as a way to weave the spell that gave the One Ring the power of dominion over the others. But as far as I know Tolkien never wrote how the verse was composed in universe, though it's obviously a thing in the world of Middle Earth. So you need someone who knew all the details of the the other Rings, how many were given to each race and such. Who better than Saruman who we know became obsessed with the Rings in his quest for knowledge about them. I like to think that it was in that moment, when he was in the Tower of Orthanc alone in the deep of night, after many sleepless days of study and pondering, that the Verse came together in his mind. The words just arranged themselves. They just laid down for him and in his pride he didn't even see that just like the Ring itself, the couplet that the entire spell was built around and was at the heart of the poem sank it's poisoned fangs into Sarumans mind, and the moment of the creation of one of his greatest works was also the moment that he began to turn away from the Light of Eru and follow his brothers Melkor and Mairon into the Void. But like I said, that's just my own personal backstory. 😊🧙🏼♂️🕺🏽
Saruman's assertion that the Ring had washed into the Sea was reported in 2953, 12 years AFTER the Hobbit. Thus the One Ring was still in play at the time of the Hobbit. Nevertheless, Gandalf had no reason to suspect that Bilbo's ring was a Great Ring until decades had passed without Bilbo appearing to age.
I think the impression given though is that he had made the assertion before that. 2953 was just the last time it came up. Hence his faux-exasperated response “Have I not studied this matter...?”
Gandalf discovers that the Necromancer of Dol Guldur is Sauron in T.A. 2850. He revealed his findings to the White Council the following year (2951). If Saruman had not opposed Gandalf then the Council could have acted that same year. In the orginal timeline Sauron had anticipated the White Council's actions of 2941 and planned a strategic withdrawal to Mordor. However, an earlier assault might have caught him off guard and hindered his plans much more effectively.
Saruman tipped his hand 90 years before the Hobbit when he voted down Gandalf's proposal to attack Dol Guldur. On the other hand one might conclude that Gandalf was in league with Sauron since it took him 390 years to "get around to" investigating the resumption of evil presence at Dol Guldur that ended the Watchful Peace. So it is problematic to question the rationale for what The Wise do as Gildor suggested to Frodo.
Gandalf always said he had no right taking the ring fromma Bilbo. Still think it might have taken some years for Gandalf to figure out its the one ring. Also its not sure Saruman woukd have stayed good being tenmpted with the ring directly even if he stayed good uptil then. But how a mossion into Mordor would end is hard to say. But Frodo was basicly ment to have the ring so maybe the events would have draged out untill Frodo.
In either version you have the sticking point of Gollum and the fact that no one has the willpower to voluntarily destroy the One Ring. As such the biggest possibile outcome IMHO is to end up with Isildur 2: Electric Boogaloo where Sauron get defeated on the battlefield and the Ring gets 'lost' again when it finally turns the Ringbearer or one or more of his companions and they either kill each other out of sight of everyone else or the turned one snatches it and runs off... And then it's who knows how many years for the next chance... hopefully with Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast and manlybe even the Blue Wizards still standing firm in opposing Sauron.
17:15 - In the books, orcs from Mordor are said to scour the eastern bank of the Anduin river. A nazgul is also mentioned leading a company or a regiment of orcs in that area, possibly searching for the One. I think it's safe to say the Fellowship would steer away from that path and probably would keep to the White Mountains on their journey through Rohan, possibly avoiding big cities like Edoras and later Minas Tirith for the sake of secrecy.
@6:05 Basically, if this Ring really is the Ring from long ago, the Battle of the Five Armies will look like a childish game compared to the devastation that would be brought in search of that Ring.
Thoughts on the “supplementary” game “The Third Age” that came out 17 years ago? The six characters and their impact on an expanded story. Also, I have headcanons for Three of the Six Playable characters, as it pertains to relations with certain characters in the canonical story, if you want to listen.
Not from the start. The earliest he became jealous according to any of the stuff Tolkien wrote was when he figured out Gandalf had been given one of the Elven rings.
I have a question about Middle Earth thats been bugging me for a while, hopefully someone can answer. Why were men initially not allowed to enter Valinor? And Im not talking about after the sinking of Numenor, Im speaking of before.
I guess thats my question. Yes men are mortal and elves are immortal. But before the betrayal of Ar-Pharazôn, why were men not allowed in Valinor (even for lets say a visit)
I’m not sure I could put it more precisely than to say mortals just aren’t meant to live in the realm of the immortal. Only the rare exception is ever made to that rule: at most 3 Hobbits, a Dwarf (Gimli), and maybe Tuor depending on how you read the Silmarillion.
There's a fanfic titled "Saruman of Many Devices," where Saruman breaks his Palantír and it connects to the AI from "The General." The AI keeps him on the Straight 'n' Narrow and teaches him how to make guns. Saruman still has his Orc army, but they're a little more elfy than normal
Frodo would have left the Shire earlier, the Fellowship would have taken an easier road through the Gap of Rohan instead of Redhorn/Moria, Theoden would not have been corrupted, etc. The whole quest would have been easier and the book less interesting.
Haha.. that is a good question. What was Gandalf's plan to get into Mordor? 🤔 Maybe you use glamour to disguise the Fellowship like Orcs. But that didn't work out so well the last time that was attempted trying to get into Sauron's land. Lol
I love how thorough your analysis is. Maybe Boromir’s death could have been replaced by that of Saruman, & for similar reasons. A Frodo not weakened by his travels is unrealistic. One of the early criticisms of LOTR was, that too many members of the Company survived; the writer suggested that Gimli should have been killed in the battle before the Black Gate.
Something that hasn't happened in an Age would still not have happened; the Ents would have slept on and not awakened to find that they are strong. Frodo would likely not have been wounded by the sword of the Witch King and may have even had less need to accompany the last elves to sail to the Undying Lands. Thor may have never been slain by Azog. Tuariel would still have never existed.
Not refuting, just curious about your opinion: Would Saruman still have been the "One Ring expert" if he hadn't been so obsessed with possessing it himself? Not to say he would have been clueless, but it seems Saruman knew as much as he did because of that obsession. He and/or Gandalf may still have researched the One Ring's history more closely, once they began to suspect that Bilbo's ring was more than a trifle - but that could have presented its own variables/challenges. On another note: Imagine an alternate version of events wherein the White Council acts much earlier, before Sauron regained some strength, and escorts Bilbo as ring-bearer into Mordor - especially Saruman, who had no problem using his magic in huge and flashy ways - and just wrecks shop. It's not nearly as interesting or compelling, but it would be fun to see as a "What if?" scenario.
Yeah, Saruman would easily be a one-man army. Alternatively, due to the nature of the secrecy of plans to destroy the ring, Gandalf would escort Bilbo or Frodo or whatever hobbit into Mordor while Saruman, Aragorn, Legolas, Boromir, and everyone else distract Sauron with open war on the west side of the Anduin.
But had Saruman been less evil (selfish), then I suppose Gandalf would also be less selfish. So he might have returned to Dol Guldur in 2460, when the Watchful Peace ended, discovered it was Sauron and then the Wise take him out 560 years before the time of LOTR. But hell why not go further? And where exactly was Gandalf and the Wise when the Witch King was assailing Arnor? This is the same dude taken out by a hobbit and a woman, he's too tough for Gandalf, Galadriel, Glorfindel and Elrond? (Saruman was still out East with the Blue Wizards at this time.). It was *necessary* that Saruman end up the way he did, else nothing the Wise did prior to the story can ever make sense. To the Wise individual mortals probably seemed like teeming masses of red shirts. It was only after Gandalf got hooked on nicotine, that he grew to care about mortals like Hobbits.
Three questions: 1) If Sauron was kicked out in 2851 and being less prepared, do you think that would that have made him more likely to reach out to Smaug or the Balrog? 2) In the War of the Ring, Sauron wasn't focused on his own land, would the West have been able to keep the ring hidden with Sauron's attention? 3) You mention Saruman fell because of his use of the palantir, or was Saruman corrupted by his study of Sauron's ways? The creation of Uruk Hai struck me as More Saruman's doing rather than at the bidding of Sauron.
I don’t think he knew of the Balrog. As to Smaug, I’m not sure that’s something he would do. Dragons tend to do their own thing. As to the second question, I’m not sure what difference it makes. Sauron doesn’t have a Ring radar so he still has to find the ring by the same means as anyone else. Saruman was probably going bad before he looked in the Palantir but it certainly hastened his fall.
@@TolkienLorePodcast For my second question, the battle of the Black Gate would have been a rout except it was just meant to distract as success only came from stealth. Even if it happened early, Sauron would have made the assumption that anyone coming to Mordor would have the ring. Sauron already had about 850 years to prepare Mordor ( From the fall of Minas Ithil to his return). If anyone had the power to take Mordor by force it would have occurred already. I dont see how stealth would have worked for earlier. Or am I missing something?
Won't a good Sarouman have a positive influence on Rohan, Théoden and they would have been more involved in the war? The united and well lead Rohirrim won't have to face the Urukai and the Dunlending would not have been riled up to the same extent, Westfold would not have fallen, Theoden would not have considered that Denethor and Gondor have betrayed Rohan and so would have sent the Rohirrim much sooner into Gondor. Would Rohan have been invited at the Council of Elrond? Who would they have sent? Eomer? Theodred? The first would surely strike a kinship with Boromir as a fellow warrior, the second would have reminded him of a younger Faramir, and if either joined the Fellowship, one could expect the warriors of the group to lead the Rohirrim into battle! Would Denethor be as hostile to the Fellowship if Boromir was alive, Sarouman instead of Gandalf leading them and Rohan offering assistance? A quick chat with Aragorn at the beset of the White Wizard would have reveiled that Aragorn didn't want the Throne; a promised he had to do to a dying Boromir of 'Protecting our people'. Gondor would have mobilised, the orcs wouldn't have crossed the river as Denetor would have given Boromir the men he needed to stop them. Even the pirates might have turned back hearing that not only as Gondor mobilised, but Rohan was at war as well; pirates hate fighting cavalry on an open field... yes Sauron full attention would have been on Gondor, alowing Gandalf, the Hobbits and a few others to sneak into Mordor.
Out of Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, and The Return of the King, which book is your favorite and why? I’ve already read them so I don’t mind spoilers.
I don’t really like to think of them as separate books, but if I had to pick one it would probably be Fellowship, because you get this whole world introduced to you, sometimes through little hints, sometimes through actual plot points. That world building is one of my favorite things about Tolkien.
@@TolkienLorePodcast As someone who is going through a creative writing challenge, turning the films back into books, I have to say I like Fellowship the most. It is the most linear, and the most simplistic to convert back. That said, I am making my own changes, as I see the world differently to Tolkien, so locations are more important to me. Bree is a merchant city, modelled on medieval Southampton. Doing that gave me things like merchant tunnels and store chambers to work with, to hide Aragorn and the Hobbits from the Nazgul. Isengard is an old abandoned city, the only way I could explain why it was there. As examples. This has been proving a good exercise, as I am trying to have things make sense, do it my why, while keeping the essence intact. Tolkien created a very rich, and fascinating universe, and delving into it, and trying to understand the reasons why things were done a certain way by him. And thank you for this video. It gave me a few things to consider, and to understand.
The problem, Tolkien Geek, is that Saruman did not become evil from his use of the palantir. He was already headed in that direction from an arrogance he already had in Valinor. If you consider the Unfinished Tales' story of the Istari, Curunir/Curumo was already of this mindset before setting out for Middle Earth. Olorin/Gandalf did not even desire to go, but Manwe insisted that was a sign he should accept this quest. For that reason, Gandalf should have been the chief of the Istari, but demurred to Saruman. The palantir of Orthanc served his purposes, but he hid this as well as he could from Sauron, since he had the power of his voice--and was able to convince even the Ringwraiths to pursue other leads than they might have. So if we want to posit Saruman "remaining good," we have to go much farther back in time and the changes would have been more radical, as you indicate in your first scenario. This is not the kind of tale Tolkien would have written. It is contrary to human nature to have so many things go right, to have no traitors and to succeed quickly. This is why the treason of Saruman is a key factor in building the epic history the dear Professor wrote.
I love me some unfinished tales, but those aren’t “canon” and thus all we can safely go on is the text of LOTR, which gives us his use of the Palantir as Gandalf’s best guess as to the cause of his fall, even if he did have issues before that.
@@TolkienLorePodcast If the Unfinished Tales are not canon, what, pray tell, are they? They are the work of Tolkien published by his son. What else is required for canonical status?
Anything published during JRRT’s lifetime is certainly canon. Arguably the Silmarillion too since it’s “final.” But a huge amount of the Unfinished Tales stuff was in constant flux and never reached a final form, as Christopher makes clear in his notes, so it’s impossible to be sure what his final thoughts were on those.
@@TolkienLorePodcast I have read all those early books published by Christopher, as I began reading Tolkien before the author passed into eternity. My take on the Istari is that nothing in the Unfinished Tales had been essentially altered when Tolkien composed LOTR. Is there something I'm missing? I was never able to get the multi-volume History of Middle Earth, so maybe I have not learned all there is to learn.
As I remember Aragorn was aprox 80 years old in the books. And Bilbo 111, when he gave up the ring. Meaning there are only 31 years between them. Bilbo was 50 when he found the ring. That means Aragorn was 20. And we know that Elrond told Aragorn about his lineage by the time he was in his 20'. It is also when he first met Arwen. So, Aragorn wasn't a kid when Bilbo found the Ring. This is why he didn't meet Aragorn, because at 20 Aragorn was already gone on his missions. If I'm wrong, correct me please! My memory isn't as good as it was 20 years ago. This aside, I enjoy your channel.
Bilbo is 111at his party but that’s 17 years before Frodo sets out, at which point Aragorn is 87, so Bilbo is at that point 128 or 41 years older than Aragorn. So when he was 50 Aragorn was 9-10.
I’d say Sauron’s influence via the palantir was what eventually made him evil. Just like how Denethor turned to despair via the palantir, Saruman may have been deceived into thinking that there could be no hope of victory against Sauron and so thought “if you can’t beat him, join him.”
If Gandalf had travelled with the dwafs all the way, without ever going off on his own, for example, to investigate the necromancer...then, its entirely possible that Bilbo would never have found the ring! And the history of the world would have been entirely different. So, ld say him being bad might have played out for the best in the end. I dont agree that the quest would have begun way earlier.. Coz, l strongly doubt Bilbo would have found the ring. ( lv only watched the movies). But think about it carefully, if Gandalf had travelled with the dwarfs all the way, WOULD BILBO HAVE FOUND THE RING??
This wat if video should answer this question, in my opinion,... If Gandalf had went with the dwarfs, l highly doubt things would have played out exactly as they did, for example, would they have been captured at Goblin Town? Would they go that route in the first place? Ultimately, would Bilbo have stumbled on Golum and gotten the ring?
Forgive me if I am stepping on your toes, Hobbit-Friend, but you appear to be "retcon" manipulating the actual sequence of events. You're treating the story (and this bogus chase toward ridiculous "what ifs") as if it actually happened. It didn't. In the original version of the Hobbit (as JRRT presented it), Saruman is not even mentioned, and I've been informed (I don't own an original version) that Bilbo's ring was just a garden-variety magic ring, not THE Ring, and that the Hobbit was not even conceived as part of the Silmarillion sequence of events. IF we're just talking about how JRRT altered and deepened the story over time (which is what you're qualified to do and should be doing, as a Tolkien scholar), that's a different matter. AND if you're saying in round-about fashion, that Saruman was wicked long before the White Council, and was probably ALWAYS rotten, then I'm with you. And I'll ask you one more................where, in any source penned by JRRT (not later apologists or explainers), is there an example of Melkor, Mairon, or Saruman EVER doing anything good, in the Christian sense of good? Being proud and disobedient, efficient and economic destruction, shuffling around divisions with Napoleonic dispatch, providing weapons for more efficient killing, cutting down trees for hotter and more productive furnaces, and a better organization of slaves and lackeys don't count as "good".
Yeah, there is far too much of it, a cheap and easy form of fan fiction, which, like allegory, I despise in all its forms when I recognize it. Did JRRT himself EVER opine about how Saruman "remaining good" would have altered the story? If so, I apologize from the bottom of my hairless feet (size 8 and 1/2).@@TolkienLorePodcast
Would we both be more agreeable and more forgiving, counselor, if we both believed in free will? I guess I'll just have to try harder to resist the temptation of chiming in when in a disagreeable mood, but it might not work. I'm human. @@TolkienLorePodcast
*Gandalf's plan for getting into Mordor...*
Gandalf: Hey, Sauron, look behind you!
Sauron: Say, what? (Looks behind himself.)
Frodo slips past and into Mordor.
Thanks for fielding my question. Yes, Brew reviews from PA and Worldwide. Cheers
A good point to start is if Elrond gave his ring, Vilya, to Saruman. That would put Gandalf and Saruman on equal ground. Saruman's downfall started out of jealousy of Gandalf from the fact that Cirdan gave his ring, Narya, to Gandalf. Saruman always knew, or suspected, about this and took offense because he was technically the head of the Istari or Wizards. Then again, this is highly speculative. The whole point of creating the character of Saruman, in my opinion, was to create a tangible enemy.
I thought it was so there would be an enemy that was thought to be an ally to go with the part about how both melkor and sauron's greatest weapon had always been treachery.
Yes, even Christopher Lee explained how Saruman is supposed to be the main antagonist of the fellowship. Sauron not even having a tangible body and having no idea that the fellowship planned to destroy the ring, doesn’t work really as well as Saruman that actually knew who had the ring.
Well Sauron knows because the Nazgul could confirm it. Also he did have a body in the book; Gollum remarks that he only has four fingers.
Wouldn't they have Captured Sauron had the White counsel arrived at Dol Guldur Way before he was ready Or for that matter, not at full strength.
I always thought the most marvelous thing about this story is that the Ring just HAD to be found by the most unlikely people imaginable. It was found by two Hobbits, Smeagol and Bilbo, it was also kept and borne by two more Hobbits, Frodo and Sam. This was very important for Tolkien. Because from a, say, Second Age viewpoint, from the viewpoint of the wise and powerful, this was madness. And yet, we know that there just was no-one powerful enough to bear the Ring and not be corrupted by Sauron. Saruman, even a "good" Saruman, wouldn't have understood this. Gandalf does understand it, even though only by intuition at the start.
So, even with all the things around the Ring quest going better with Saruman remaining on the good side (sooner acting against Dol-Guldûr, no Uruk-Hai, Rohan and Gondor remaining stronger and more vigilant) you always end up with the question: How do you destroy the Ring and who does it? Brute force won't get you to Mordor and Mount Doom, even with a stronger Gondor and Rohan and Lothlorien. Two Istari, one of them with Narya in his pocket, cannot sneak into Mordor without being noticed by Sauron. Would they really have been able to bring the Hobbits (two of them or all four?) to Cirith Ungol and leave them there? Would they have even thought of Cirith Ungol without Gollum? What about Shelob? What about giving up the Ring in the end, without Gollum "helping out"?
So, in the end, Saruman remaining good would have smoothed the way to Mordor but not much more. Maybe all the tribulations on Frodo's way, the breaking of the Fellowship, Gandalf's death - all the things gone wrong, were absolutely necessary to end up with the most desperate of plans: two little Hobbits walking to the Sammath Naur.
Thing is, Frodo would have left the Shire much earlier IMHO, as Saruman would have never lured Gandalf to Orthanc.
And Merry would have never gotten the dagger that helped kill The Witch King.
Much as it would pain Gandalf, in this scenario I'm pretty sure one or the other of the Istari would have tossed a Hobbit over the edge.
Or, perhaps in that instance, at the height of the Ring's power, a fight breaks out for possession. One Istari could take it from either Bilbo or Frodo with really no problem, but two Istari might come to blows over it, resulting in an accidental drop into the Cracks.
In the end you mention that Frodo might be more resistant to the Ring because there is no Shelob Stab or capture by the orcs. I'd like to think the fact that the Fellowship didn't go through the Moria also plays a role there. No Gandalf apparent death, no scary and burdening talk with Galadriel, I guess no fight with Boromir... That Frodo is less emotionnally weary, less guilty, more accompagned by all the Hobbits and Gandalf. That's an immense difference for the last minute. And at the Crack of Doom, I think Gandalf and his ring can help him too.
Grima Wormtongue was also working for Saruman, so maybe without evil-Saruman, there is no poisonous influence on Theoden, and Rohan is much stronger and more alert.
Though I guess maybe Grima was already going to be Theoden’s advisor, regardless.
I think Theodred’s death was also because of Saruman.
Yes, and theodred was deliberately killed when the orcs and Uruk of Saruman when he attacked the fords of isen, a location of strategic importance in the gap of Rohan. His goal was to demoralize- and through treachery of Grima, chief advisor to the king- poison the mind of Theoden king.
Absolutely LOVE your channel! Keep up the great work!!
Hobbit version
"TA 2850 - Gandalf reenters Dol Guldur in secret and confirms that its master is indeed Sauron returned
TA 2851 - Gandalf urges the White Council to attack Dol Guldur, but is overruled by Saruman (who seeks the One Ring for himself)"
So most likely, the White Council would have acted in TA 2851, had Saruman remained good. This is 90 years before the Hobbit, so yes, there is no reason for Gandalf to leave the group, unless he has some other issues to deal with. Either case, this by itself probably doesn't change the rest of the Hobbit much, until it comes the time to head back. I don't think it is that unreasonable to assume that Gandalf doesn't instantly catch on that this might be the One Ring; it is just later that Bilbo's extended lifespan starts clanging some warning bells. Even if Gandalf would act already in 2942, Sauron would have had even more time to settle in Mordor than he had in the original timeline: 91 years vs. 76 years. Also, Mordor already would have had plenty of orcs, as evidenced by the near constant skirmishing in Ithilien in the latter half of the third millenium TA.
That being said, a MAJOR advantage would have been that Sauron had no idea that the One Ring had been found. He doesn't find this out until Gollum is captured in 3010s or so. This means that the Ringwraiths are probably chilling out in Minas Morgul rather than looking for the One Ring. So it is possible that in this timeline, the Fellowship (much more geared towards destroying the Ring rather than sidequesting in Rohan and in Gondor) manages to sneak to Mount Doom and destroy the Ring, without the War of the Ring happening.
LotR version
If Saruman stays good, there is no Wormtongue to spill the beans about Shire to the Ringwraiths. Also, as other people have already noted, there would be no need for Saruman to lure Gandalf to Orthanc. Thus, Gandalf meets with Frodo in Shire earlier and they have an uneventful trip to Rivendell. No Morgul Blade at Weathertop, either. Given the Providence at work in LotR, it is very well possible that the West-door would have opened for Gollum (Gandalf could do it, although I am not sure if Aragorn is said to have traversed the length of Moria), allowing him to start following the Fellowship from Eregion onwards.
It is also possible that at being introduced to Aragorn, Saruman might have given him the Palantir (and had he been looking for the One Ring himself for good purposes, he could have Isildur's stuff to hand to Aragorn as well). Without Saruman's treachery, Theoden and Theodred would be hale and hearty, ready to call the Muster of the Riders, and bring 12000 Rohirrim to the Pelennor Fields, double the army that arrived in the Return of the King. Assuming Denethor is not too much of an ass (Saruman's Voice might become useful there, as well as Boromir's acceptance of Aragorn's claim), Aragorn would hear about the attacks on the coasts, and might choose to call the Oathbreakers at the Stone of Erech anyway, without going through the Paths of the Dead from Rohan. I doubt Denethor could have stood against the near-universal acclaim Aragorn would have received from saving Gondor first from the Corsairs and then breaking the enemy's back at Pelennor.
That being said, the timeline is not totally clear, either. They lose like a month in Lorien, but by sidestepping Lorien, they would not get delayed. However, I can see the decision made to try to distract Sauron from Mordor (and Gandalf-led fraction of the Fellowship trying to sneak in) by having Aragorn use the Palantir and show himself to Sauron, thus triggering the attempt by Sauron to attack Minas Tirith sooner rather than later, using what armies he has available. However, this likely means that some of his Easterling and Southron armies would be still enroute, not able to participate in the Pelennor Field, which might mean that the reinforced Rohirrim army is already enough to crush them. The joker here is the absence of Merry with a barrow-blade, and likely an absence of Eowyn as well, as she would be less bitter about her lot, with a stronger Theoden and lack of Grima. So maybe there would have been a showdown between Saruman and the Witch-King, or something like that.
But then you always end up with the question: How do you destroy the Ring, and who does it? Gandalf and Galadriel were quite clear that a powerful being of the West taking it would be incredibly dangerous. So, who gets it to Mount Doom? Would they really have been able to destroy Sauron's army and then march into Mordor to get it to the Sammath Naur? And what if nobody had been able to cast it into the fire? Without Gollum around?
Great post! I do have one thing to say about it though: no, Sauron wouldn't have had "more" to prepare himself.
Firstly, the way you're comparing times of preparation kind of assumes that when Sauron goes back to Mordor, he starts anew from 0, but I don't think that's the case. As you say it yourself, it's not like Mordor was idle when Sauron was in Dol Guldur: it was actually preparing for the return of the Dark Lord, so in the actual book, he actually did got those 91 years + 76 more. Given, he might be a bit more efficient for the 91 by assuming direct control over Mordor earlier, but I don't think that's enough to compensate for the lack of the 76 between the Hobbit and TLOTR.
And secondly, Sauron himself would have been weaker, because he would have had less time to rebuild his own strength AND because he would have gotten slapped a good time by the White Council instead of operating a strategical retreat.
Eowyn would probably still be around. She’s headstrong and enough of a feminist to still pull off a Mulan and ride into battle to fight the Witch-king. They can also make a trip to Lothlorien if they go through the Pass at Caradhras without Saruman using his spells to influence the weather there. (If anything, maybe Saruman can use his magic to ensure beautiful, clear skies over the Misty Mountains until the Fellowship makes it through.) And then they can still make a detour to Isengard to seek Saruman’s counsel and use his palantir. (I highly doubt Saruman would give up his palantir altogether so easily though.)
@@mechadoggy Saruman's calling of the snowstorm is purely a movie thing. In the books, it is Caradhras the Cruel itself that is the cause for the storm, i.e. snowstorms are common up there. As for Eowyn, part of the reason why she is so keen on going out on a death-ride is that she is lacking hope (thinkng Aragorn dead in the Paths of the Dead and the depleted Rohirrim all going to die at Minas Tirith), and she had already suffered from Grima's poisonous whisperings. As Gandalf puts it in the Return of the King:
"‘My friend,’ said Gandalf, ‘you had horses, and deeds of arms, and the free fields; but she, born in the body of a maid, had a spirit and courage at least the match of yours. Yet she was doomed to wait upon an old man, whom she loved as a father, and watch him falling into a mean dishonoured dotage; and her part seemed to her more ignoble than that of the staff he leaned on.
‘Think you that Wormtongue had poison only for Théoden’s ears? Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor among their dogs? Have you not heard those words before? Saruman spoke them, the teacher of Wormtongue. Though I do not doubt that Wormtongue at home wrapped their meaning in terms more cunning. My lord, if your sister’s love for you, and her will still bent to her duty, had not restrained her lips; you might have heard even such things as these escape them. But who knows what she spoke to the darkness, alone, in the bitter watches of the night, when all her life seemed shrinking, and the walls of her bower closing in about her, a hutch to trammel some wild thing in?’"
Without Saruman's treachery and hence Grima's treachery, this would not happen and Theoden would have remained strong and healthy, as well as Theodred, who was like a big brother to both Eomer and Eowyn, would have been alive still. Hence I doubt Eowyn would have been so keen on going with the Muster of the Rohirrim to the War. But reasonable men can disagree on that point. :)
Hey Tolkien Geek! This is a very interesting topic, and I'm glad you covered it! Maybe you could do a part II on things in Tolkien's Legendarium that we know nothing about? I found that video very interesting. Love your videos, keep them up!
Easier to figure out, maybe, would be What if Saruman had chosen to repent?
I think even if Sauraman was good Gandalf would still wait for Frodo like he did with Bilbo in the Hobbit.
Just woke up to this ♥️
If Gandolf is with the dwarfs going through Mirkwood and they don't get caught by the wood elves then the elves probably aren't apart of the battle at the lonely mountain making it the battle of 4 army's instead of 5 and the orcs might win in that case
Gandalf would also not have been delayed, and would have been able to meet them at Bree as planned - therefore would've been present at Weathertop, and Frodo would not have been stabbed by the Witch-King.
TBH if Gandalf found out about the Ring during the Hobbit and with Saruman still on Team Good Guys. They might could have, i can't believe i am saying this, flew into Mordor using the Eagles.
This was great! I love these what-ifs! I could almost imagine an alternative Lord of the Rings' story being written on this and having it be just as interesting. I would hope a non-corrupted Saruman and/or Gandalf could help Bilbo throw the ring in.
I think that in the second scenario (which I think would play out if Bilbo somehow managed to keep the Ring a secret from Gandalf until his little trick at his 111st birthday), Saruman probably would have:
1) been present at the council of Elrond (he's the White Council leader and Rings of Power specialist, after all);
2) gone to Minas Tirith and lead the Free People in the war, fulfilling his job as the White Wizard, as Gandalf did in the actual books, leaving Gandalf free to go with Frodo.
I agree, plus even if Saruman remained good, I think he still would be too proud to associate himself with a lowly hobbit like Frodo. So yes, he would go to Minas Tirith and rally the armies while Gandalf can help escort Frodo to Mt. Doom.
Bilbo's 111 birthday was in 3001 T.A and Saruman became ensnared by Sauron's will in 3000 T.A!
It would have been game over for the Free People if Gandalf took Bilbo or Frodo, as he had just got the ring and would not be as attached, and there was more hope if Frodo carried the ring then, it would be too late!
In the second scenario I wonder if Gandalf could have used his powers of instilling hope and courage in others to give Frodo enough strength to actually throw the ring into the fire.
And in the worst-case scenario, Gandalf can simply toss Frodo into the lava, ring and all (which is what Elrond should have done to Isildur in the movie)
My only question would be is would Saruman have been as interested and knowledgeable about the ring and it's history if he hadn't started turning bad and had the desire to possess it?
Like the bright kid at school who doesn't have that *desire* to become a doctor etc. coasts through school, could read books in the library but doesn't bother. So Saruman never reads the book/scroll about how to identify the ring. Still wants to overthrow Sauron but isn't interested in the ring.
The ring is the key to defeating Sauron and that's Saruman's whole reason for being there. Even if Saruman never went bad, he'd have plenty of motivation for learning about the ring.
@@Ansatz66 That's the thing Saruman is said to have already already desired the ring and power when the white council was formed (500yrs before the events of the Hobbit). Because according to the Unfinished Tales he discovered that Gandalf had been given Narya and begrudged the gift. If it wasn't for the desire for the ring he might even have gone the way of the blue wizards.
Most wizard characters I've seen or read about basically fall into to characters: those that desire knowledge in order to gain power, or those that desire power in order to gain knowledge. I'm making the assumption that even if Saruman hadn't become evil, he more or less would have the same personality, and would want to gain as much knowledge as possible as a matter of pride. So he'd probably want to know as much as possible about the ring (and anything else) out of both sake of curiosity and to show off what he knows to anyone else, so I think he'd still know just as much about it, if not more. It's his pride that led to his downfall, but it's a pride he'd still have even if it didn't, IMO.
I would love to consider what if Galadriel had taken the Ring when Frodo offered it.
awesome vid.
In my head Canon Saruman is the person that wrote the Ring Verse before he turned selfish and ambitious and began scheming for himself. He was one of the few people in Middle Earth who would of had all of the information needed to compose the poem. I know Sauron created the couplet that is inscribed on the Ring, probably using those words as a way to weave the spell that gave the One Ring the power of dominion over the others. But as far as I know Tolkien never wrote how the verse was composed in universe, though it's obviously a thing in the world of Middle Earth. So you need someone who knew all the details of the the other Rings, how many were given to each race and such. Who better than Saruman who we know became obsessed with the Rings in his quest for knowledge about them.
I like to think that it was in that moment, when he was in the Tower of Orthanc alone in the deep of night, after many sleepless days of study and pondering, that the Verse came together in his mind. The words just arranged themselves. They just laid down for him and in his pride he didn't even see that just like the Ring itself, the couplet that the entire spell was built around and was at the heart of the poem sank it's poisoned fangs into Sarumans mind, and the moment of the creation of one of his greatest works was also the moment that he began to turn away from the Light of Eru and follow his brothers Melkor and Mairon into the Void.
But like I said, that's just my own personal backstory. 😊🧙🏼♂️🕺🏽
That is a good point, that he is one of the few people who could have written it originally.
Saruman's assertion that the Ring had washed into the Sea was reported in 2953, 12 years AFTER the Hobbit. Thus the One Ring was still in play at the time of the Hobbit. Nevertheless, Gandalf had no reason to suspect that Bilbo's ring was a Great Ring until decades had passed without Bilbo appearing to age.
I think the impression given though is that he had made the assertion before that. 2953 was just the last time it came up. Hence his faux-exasperated response “Have I not studied this matter...?”
Gandalf discovers that the Necromancer of Dol Guldur is Sauron in T.A. 2850. He revealed his findings to the White Council the following year (2951). If Saruman had not opposed Gandalf then the Council could have acted that same year. In the orginal timeline Sauron had anticipated the White Council's actions of 2941 and planned a strategic withdrawal to Mordor. However, an earlier assault might have caught him off guard and hindered his plans much more effectively.
15:15 or eru causes Bilbo to stumble and drop the ring.
Saruman tipped his hand 90 years before the Hobbit when he voted down Gandalf's proposal to attack Dol Guldur. On the other hand one might conclude that Gandalf was in league with Sauron since it took him 390 years to "get around to" investigating the resumption of evil presence at Dol Guldur that ended the Watchful Peace. So it is problematic to question the rationale for what The Wise do as Gildor suggested to Frodo.
This video’s title and thumbnail earned you my subscription after watching you debunk CinemaSins over and over again.
Gandalf always said he had no right taking the ring fromma Bilbo. Still think it might have taken some years for Gandalf to figure out its the one ring. Also its not sure Saruman woukd have stayed good being tenmpted with the ring directly even if he stayed good uptil then. But how a mossion into Mordor would end is hard to say. But Frodo was basicly ment to have the ring so maybe the events would have draged out untill Frodo.
The Ring is Mine.
Without Sam, the Ring could not have been destroyed.
In either version you have the sticking point of Gollum and the fact that no one has the willpower to voluntarily destroy the One Ring.
As such the biggest possibile outcome IMHO is to end up with Isildur 2: Electric Boogaloo where Sauron get defeated on the battlefield and the Ring gets 'lost' again when it finally turns the Ringbearer or one or more of his companions and they either kill each other out of sight of everyone else or the turned one snatches it and runs off...
And then it's who knows how many years for the next chance... hopefully with Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast and manlybe even the Blue Wizards still standing firm in opposing Sauron.
*What if Saruman HAD remained good
17:15 - In the books, orcs from Mordor are said to scour the eastern bank of the Anduin river. A nazgul is also mentioned leading a company or a regiment of orcs in that area, possibly searching for the One. I think it's safe to say the Fellowship would steer away from that path and probably would keep to the White Mountains on their journey through Rohan, possibly avoiding big cities like Edoras and later Minas Tirith for the sake of secrecy.
@6:05
Basically, if this Ring really is the Ring from long ago, the Battle of the Five Armies will look like a childish game compared to the devastation that would be brought in search of that Ring.
Thoughts on the “supplementary” game “The Third Age” that came out 17 years ago? The six characters and their impact on an expanded story.
Also, I have headcanons for Three of the Six Playable characters, as it pertains to relations with certain characters in the canonical story, if you want to listen.
Not sure which game you mean. Are you talking about the RPG where you start as a Gondorian soldier following Boromir?
@@TolkienLorePodcast yes.
impossible
that would've involved Saruman being reborn, since he'd been jealous from the start
Not from the start. The earliest he became jealous according to any of the stuff Tolkien wrote was when he figured out Gandalf had been given one of the Elven rings.
@@TolkienLorePodcast thanks for the info
I thought it was when they were still in their Maiar form
I have a question about Middle Earth thats been bugging me for a while, hopefully someone can answer. Why were men initially not allowed to enter Valinor? And Im not talking about after the sinking of Numenor, Im speaking of before.
What do you mean “initially?” They were never allowed to enter Valinor. As to why, men are mortal, and Valinor is a place for immortals.
I guess thats my question. Yes men are mortal and elves are immortal. But before the betrayal of Ar-Pharazôn, why were men not allowed in Valinor (even for lets say a visit)
I’m not sure I could put it more precisely than to say mortals just aren’t meant to live in the realm of the immortal. Only the rare exception is ever made to that rule: at most 3 Hobbits, a Dwarf (Gimli), and maybe Tuor depending on how you read the Silmarillion.
Appreciate it, I think I could spend hours talking about Tolkien Lore. 👍👍
There's a fanfic titled "Saruman of Many Devices," where Saruman breaks his Palantír and it connects to the AI from "The General." The AI keeps him on the Straight 'n' Narrow and teaches him how to make guns. Saruman still has his Orc army, but they're a little more elfy than normal
It was an interesting work, but ultimately wasted potential.
@@revanofkorriban1505 Sad how the good fics all seem to end in the middle, innit?
@@wesleythomas7125 Well, it wasn't a good fic. It was an interesting premise handled poorly.
@@revanofkorriban1505 I liked it well enough
@@wesleythomas7125 Well, I have to say that I disagree with your taste. No offense intended. There's a better Good!Saruman fic out there I know.
Frodo would have left the Shire earlier, the Fellowship would have taken an easier road through the Gap of Rohan instead of Redhorn/Moria, Theoden would not have been corrupted, etc. The whole quest would have been easier and the book less interesting.
And Count Dooku, too?
Haha.. that is a good question. What was Gandalf's plan to get into Mordor? 🤔
Maybe you use glamour to disguise the Fellowship like Orcs. But that didn't work out so well the last time that was attempted trying to get into Sauron's land. Lol
My guess is he probably wanted to use the eagles to pass through a part of the mountains that the enemy wouldn't be watching.
I love how thorough your analysis is.
Maybe Boromir’s death could have been replaced by that of Saruman, & for similar reasons.
A Frodo not weakened by his travels is unrealistic. One of the early criticisms of LOTR was, that too many members of the Company survived; the writer suggested that Gimli should have been killed in the battle before the Black Gate.
Something that hasn't happened in an Age would still not have happened; the Ents would have slept on and not awakened to find that they are strong.
Frodo would likely not have been wounded by the sword of the Witch King and may have even had less need to accompany the last elves to sail to the Undying Lands.
Thor may have never been slain by Azog.
Tuariel would still have never existed.
There is another option. The ring can be destroyed by dragon fire and in the hobbit ther is still a living dragon...
Gandalf says dragon fire likely wouldn’t destroy the One though.
Not refuting, just curious about your opinion: Would Saruman still have been the "One Ring expert" if he hadn't been so obsessed with possessing it himself? Not to say he would have been clueless, but it seems Saruman knew as much as he did because of that obsession. He and/or Gandalf may still have researched the One Ring's history more closely, once they began to suspect that Bilbo's ring was more than a trifle - but that could have presented its own variables/challenges.
On another note: Imagine an alternate version of events wherein the White Council acts much earlier, before Sauron regained some strength, and escorts Bilbo as ring-bearer into Mordor - especially Saruman, who had no problem using his magic in huge and flashy ways - and just wrecks shop. It's not nearly as interesting or compelling, but it would be fun to see as a "What if?" scenario.
Yeah, Saruman would easily be a one-man army. Alternatively, due to the nature of the secrecy of plans to destroy the ring, Gandalf would escort Bilbo or Frodo or whatever hobbit into Mordor while Saruman, Aragorn, Legolas, Boromir, and everyone else distract Sauron with open war on the west side of the Anduin.
But had Saruman been less evil (selfish), then I suppose Gandalf would also be less selfish. So he might have returned to Dol Guldur in 2460, when the Watchful Peace ended, discovered it was Sauron and then the Wise take him out 560 years before the time of LOTR.
But hell why not go further? And where exactly was Gandalf and the Wise when the Witch King was assailing Arnor? This is the same dude taken out by a hobbit and a woman, he's too tough for Gandalf, Galadriel, Glorfindel and Elrond? (Saruman was still out East with the Blue Wizards at this time.).
It was *necessary* that Saruman end up the way he did, else nothing the Wise did prior to the story can ever make sense. To the Wise individual mortals probably seemed like teeming masses of red shirts. It was only after Gandalf got hooked on nicotine, that he grew to care about mortals like Hobbits.
I missread this, thought it said what if Sauron stayed good.
Confused me
What happened to the swords?
Temporary move. I’ll have a more permanent studio back up hopefully by midsummer.
Three questions: 1) If Sauron was kicked out in 2851 and being less prepared, do you think that would that have made him more likely to reach out to Smaug or the Balrog?
2) In the War of the Ring, Sauron wasn't focused on his own land, would the West have been able to keep the ring hidden with Sauron's attention?
3) You mention Saruman fell because of his use of the palantir, or was Saruman corrupted by his study of Sauron's ways? The creation of Uruk Hai struck me as More Saruman's doing rather than at the bidding of Sauron.
I don’t think he knew of the Balrog. As to Smaug, I’m not sure that’s something he would do. Dragons tend to do their own thing. As to the second question, I’m not sure what difference it makes. Sauron doesn’t have a Ring radar so he still has to find the ring by the same means as anyone else. Saruman was probably going bad before he looked in the Palantir but it certainly hastened his fall.
@@TolkienLorePodcast For my second question, the battle of the Black Gate would have been a rout except it was just meant to distract as success only came from stealth. Even if it happened early, Sauron would have made the assumption that anyone coming to Mordor would have the ring. Sauron already had about 850 years to prepare Mordor ( From the fall of Minas Ithil to his return). If anyone had the power to take Mordor by force it would have occurred already. I dont see how stealth would have worked for earlier. Or am I missing something?
I don’t think it would have been easy, just easier.
Won't a good Sarouman have a positive influence on Rohan, Théoden and they would have been more involved in the war? The united and well lead Rohirrim won't have to face the Urukai and the Dunlending would not have been riled up to the same extent, Westfold would not have fallen, Theoden would not have considered that Denethor and Gondor have betrayed Rohan and so would have sent the Rohirrim much sooner into Gondor. Would Rohan have been invited at the Council of Elrond? Who would they have sent? Eomer? Theodred? The first would surely strike a kinship with Boromir as a fellow warrior, the second would have reminded him of a younger Faramir, and if either joined the Fellowship, one could expect the warriors of the group to lead the Rohirrim into battle! Would Denethor be as hostile to the Fellowship if Boromir was alive, Sarouman instead of Gandalf leading them and Rohan offering assistance? A quick chat with Aragorn at the beset of the White Wizard would have reveiled that Aragorn didn't want the Throne; a promised he had to do to a dying Boromir of 'Protecting our people'. Gondor would have mobilised, the orcs wouldn't have crossed the river as Denetor would have given Boromir the men he needed to stop them. Even the pirates might have turned back hearing that not only as Gondor mobilised, but Rohan was at war as well; pirates hate fighting cavalry on an open field... yes Sauron full attention would have been on Gondor, alowing Gandalf, the Hobbits and a few others to sneak into Mordor.
Out of Fellowship of the Ring, The Two Towers, and The Return of the King, which book is your favorite and why? I’ve already read them so I don’t mind spoilers.
I don’t really like to think of them as separate books, but if I had to pick one it would probably be Fellowship, because you get this whole world introduced to you, sometimes through little hints, sometimes through actual plot points. That world building is one of my favorite things about Tolkien.
@@TolkienLorePodcast As someone who is going through a creative writing challenge, turning the films back into books, I have to say I like Fellowship the most. It is the most linear, and the most simplistic to convert back.
That said, I am making my own changes, as I see the world differently to Tolkien, so locations are more important to me. Bree is a merchant city, modelled on medieval Southampton. Doing that gave me things like merchant tunnels and store chambers to work with, to hide Aragorn and the Hobbits from the Nazgul. Isengard is an old abandoned city, the only way I could explain why it was there. As examples.
This has been proving a good exercise, as I am trying to have things make sense, do it my why, while keeping the essence intact. Tolkien created a very rich, and fascinating universe, and delving into it, and trying to understand the reasons why things were done a certain way by him.
And thank you for this video. It gave me a few things to consider, and to understand.
Could shadowfax be of the lineage of Nahar the horse of Orome?
Maybe. Not much is said of the mearas and I don’t remember much detail on it off hand.
The problem, Tolkien Geek, is that Saruman did not become evil from his use of the palantir. He was already headed in that direction from an arrogance he already had in Valinor. If you consider the Unfinished Tales' story of the Istari, Curunir/Curumo was already of this mindset before setting out for Middle Earth. Olorin/Gandalf did not even desire to go, but Manwe insisted that was a sign he should accept this quest. For that reason, Gandalf should have been the chief of the Istari, but demurred to Saruman. The palantir of Orthanc served his purposes, but he hid this as well as he could from Sauron, since he had the power of his voice--and was able to convince even the Ringwraiths to pursue other leads than they might have. So if we want to posit Saruman "remaining good," we have to go much farther back in time and the changes would have been more radical, as you indicate in your first scenario. This is not the kind of tale Tolkien would have written. It is contrary to human nature to have so many things go right, to have no traitors and to succeed quickly. This is why the treason of Saruman is a key factor in building the epic history the dear Professor wrote.
I love me some unfinished tales, but those aren’t “canon” and thus all we can safely go on is the text of LOTR, which gives us his use of the Palantir as Gandalf’s best guess as to the cause of his fall, even if he did have issues before that.
@@TolkienLorePodcast If the Unfinished Tales are not canon, what, pray tell, are they? They are the work of Tolkien published by his son. What else is required for canonical status?
Anything published during JRRT’s lifetime is certainly canon. Arguably the Silmarillion too since it’s “final.” But a huge amount of the Unfinished Tales stuff was in constant flux and never reached a final form, as Christopher makes clear in his notes, so it’s impossible to be sure what his final thoughts were on those.
@@TolkienLorePodcast I have read all those early books published by Christopher, as I began reading Tolkien before the author passed into eternity. My take on the Istari is that nothing in the Unfinished Tales had been essentially altered when Tolkien composed LOTR. Is there something I'm missing? I was never able to get the multi-volume History of Middle Earth, so maybe I have not learned all there is to learn.
There is some extra stuff on the Blue Wizards for sure, I think in Vol. 12.
As I remember Aragorn was aprox 80 years old in the books. And Bilbo 111, when he gave up the ring. Meaning there are only 31 years between them.
Bilbo was 50 when he found the ring. That means Aragorn was 20. And we know that Elrond told Aragorn about his lineage by the time he was in his 20'. It is also when he first met Arwen.
So, Aragorn wasn't a kid when Bilbo found the Ring. This is why he didn't meet Aragorn, because at 20 Aragorn was already gone on his missions.
If I'm wrong, correct me please! My memory isn't as good as it was 20 years ago.
This aside, I enjoy your channel.
Bilbo is 111at his party but that’s 17 years before Frodo sets out, at which point Aragorn is 87, so Bilbo is at that point 128 or 41 years older than Aragorn. So when he was 50 Aragorn was 9-10.
I can’t remember. Was Saruman already evil by the time he obtained Orthanc? Or only after he was snared by Sauron from looking into the Palantir?
He was already going downhill, but maybe not totally evil.
I’d say Sauron’s influence via the palantir was what eventually made him evil. Just like how Denethor turned to despair via the palantir, Saruman may have been deceived into thinking that there could be no hope of victory against Sauron and so thought “if you can’t beat him, join him.”
If Gandalf had travelled with the dwafs all the way, without ever going off on his own, for example, to investigate the necromancer...then, its entirely possible that Bilbo would never have found the ring! And the history of the world would have been entirely different. So, ld say him being bad might have played out for the best in the end. I dont agree that the quest would have begun way earlier.. Coz, l strongly doubt Bilbo would have found the ring. ( lv only watched the movies). But think about it carefully, if Gandalf had travelled with the dwarfs all the way, WOULD BILBO HAVE FOUND THE RING??
This wat if video should answer this question, in my opinion,... If Gandalf had went with the dwarfs, l highly doubt things would have played out exactly as they did, for example, would they have been captured at Goblin Town? Would they go that route in the first place? Ultimately, would Bilbo have stumbled on Golum and gotten the ring?
In the books Gandalf is with the Dwarves till Mirkwood.
silly, then rohan would have couple of thousand of soldiers more, against Sauron :/
Forgive me if I am stepping on your toes, Hobbit-Friend, but you appear to be "retcon" manipulating the actual sequence of events. You're treating the story (and this bogus chase toward ridiculous "what ifs") as if it actually happened. It didn't. In the original version of the Hobbit (as JRRT presented it), Saruman is not even mentioned, and I've been informed (I don't own an original version) that Bilbo's ring was just a garden-variety magic ring, not THE Ring, and that the Hobbit was not even conceived as part of the Silmarillion sequence of events.
IF we're just talking about how JRRT altered and deepened the story over time (which is what you're qualified to do and should be doing, as a Tolkien scholar), that's a different matter.
AND if you're saying in round-about fashion, that Saruman was wicked long before the White Council, and was probably ALWAYS rotten, then I'm with you.
And I'll ask you one more................where, in any source penned by JRRT (not later apologists or explainers), is there an example of Melkor, Mairon, or Saruman EVER doing anything good, in the Christian sense of good? Being proud and disobedient, efficient and economic destruction, shuffling around divisions with Napoleonic dispatch, providing weapons for more efficient killing, cutting down trees for hotter and more productive furnaces, and a better organization of slaves and lackeys don't count as "good".
Do you understand the point of a “what if?”
Yeah, there is far too much of it, a cheap and easy form of fan fiction, which, like allegory, I despise in all its forms when I recognize it.
Did JRRT himself EVER opine about how Saruman "remaining good" would have altered the story? If so, I apologize from the bottom of my hairless feet (size 8 and 1/2).@@TolkienLorePodcast
@kevinrussell1144 dude, if you don’t like what ifs then just don’t watch the video. No need to act all superior over it.
Would we both be more agreeable and more forgiving, counselor, if we both believed in free will? I guess I'll just have to try harder to resist the temptation of chiming in when in a disagreeable mood, but it might not work. I'm human. @@TolkienLorePodcast
@kevinrussell1144 I do believe in free will. Do you not?
So, if Saruman had remained good, the ring quest could ultimately have failed.