BUILD ME AN ARMY YESSSS!!!!!!! Great video guys I love what if videos and are you going to WHAT IF live stream one more time? P.s. both lines are magnificent so use sometimes Aragorn line too!!
@@charlie7531 He does say “You already know that I don't have it, because if I did, you would bow down and call me Lord". But Tolkien has already answered this outside of the book. He said 1) the Ring bearer, if powerful enough to begin with, can use it to control other Ring-bearers and former Ring-bearers, such as the Nazgul, but 2) it takes time even for a wizard to fully master the Ring’s powers. Therefore, Sauron’s strategy is to go to war, to force the Ring-bearer to declare himself before he’s had time to master all the powers. If you want another direct quote there is one other I can think of. Frodo asks Galadriel why, as Ring bearer, he can’t control the Nazgul. Galadriel responds that “First you would have to train your mind in the habit of domination and control of others. But - do not try, for you would destroy yourself!”
@@Joshwaheazo yes, but the question then becomes how much time does it take. Also could Frodo have controlled the Nazgûl when he claims the ring at mount doom?
@@charlie7531 Frodo was probably not powerful enough to begin with so it would take much longer. I have never found any reference to the passage of time; a bit longer than it take to go to war I guess. To master the Ring, in the sense you're talking about, means to utterly wrest control of it from Sauron; it's subjective I'm afraid.
Merry amd Pippin would be watching the battle on the dam whilst eating 2nd breakfast. Pippin drops a nut which falls into a crack in the dam, Pippin steps on it when trying to retrieve it pushing it further into the stone cracking it all the way down causing the dam to break, the 2 hobbits then surf on a broken rock all the way to Gandalf's feet who proceeds to scold him "Fool of a took!"
Theoden would not be freed from Saruman's control, so Saruman would still have control of Rohan, he would try to gather an army against Sauron ally with Gondor, and maybe the elves too. Then he conquers all.
2 scenes from the books make me think that Saruman would win: 1) when confronting Saruman *after* his power was diminished, many men were still swayed by Sarumans voice. 2) when discussing what to do after the battle of the pelenor fields, Gandalf states that Sauron would strike swiftly, because it takes time to master the Ring and turn your mind to the domination of others. Saruman would likely wait and try to learn how to use the ring. However since his mind is already bent to domination, it might not take him as long. Using his voice empowered by the ring, he may even be able to turn a good amount of the Rohirrim to his side ('but to those whom the voice conquered, it remained with them forever after, urging them and whispering' - not an exact quote, but close enough). He would likely still want the great (Aragorn, Gandalf, Eomer etc) slain, but the rest would die or serve. Sauron would likely not wait, once he had discovered it, but he may be unable to win against Saruman (It is implied that Galadriel possessing the ring would replace - defeat - Sauron and she is an elf, not a maiar). Sieging Isengard would probably take too long and Saruman could grow his power through the Ring. As regards the Nazgul: If Saruman can't command them (maybe he could actually), then he would likely still be able to hold them off on his own. (Gandalf mentioned that he may try to fight the winged messengers - nazgul - when riding away from their confrontation.) Grond could maybe crack Isengards gate, so maaaybe Sauron would win.. possible.. But he would certainly unleash all of Mordor immideately against Isengard once he knew Saruman had the ring and tried to make excuses for not handing it over. so maybe 60/40 that Saruman could survive (and then win) I think it is likely that Saruman could win the dominion of middle earth..
Yes, very good comment and hope others will read it. I was going to post something along very similar lines. It was implied that any of the higher beings still present in Middle-earth attempting to use the One Ring (whether for good or personal gain) such as Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, etc., would not cause the Ring to eventually fall into Sauron's grasp, but instead corrupt and _aggrandize_ the bearers to such a degree they'd become 'dark lords' unto themselves, possibly eventually overthrowing Sauron. Galadriel's dialogue with Frodo at the Mirror is highly revelatory to that effect, and she was 'only' a High Elf, not a Maia. Regarding Saruman who is the topic of this video, even without the One Ring Saruman's Voice was nearly as powerful as Sauron's Eye. Both captured and beguiled the unwitting victim. However, once empowered with the Ring, imagine Saruman with a megaphone... I think he'd become the undisputed ruler of Middle-earth or damn near to it. Sauron would sooner or later be relegated to the confines of Mordor as he was in the past when the Dúnedain were at the peak of their strength. Maybe Saruman would not be able to topple Sauron in his fortress of Barad-dûr, but Sauron would more or less be holed up in there for the duration. In the LOTR, concern among the leaders of the Free Peoples for the Ring somehow ending in Saruman's hands was almost as great as it was for Sauron recovering it. I think you're right on the money with this hypothetical outcome analysis.
galadriel was one of the greatest elves to exist. saruman was limited in his power when sent to middle earth if im not mistaken. galadriel with ring probably far surpassed anybody or anything in middle earth unless a truly powerful maia on souron level descended. even then she maybe won. strong elves >weak maia. strong elf with most of souron's essence bent to their will within the ring > strong maia. saruman weaker than souron if neither have the ring. combined holders of elven rings vs saruman with one ring. elven holders probably win. throw in glorfindel for good measure and its virtually assured. 3 maia level beings, 2 enhanced with elven rings, plus elrond who is probably boosted to maia level when he uses his ring. no way saruman can win. saruman much more practical for the powerful such as the 4 listed above to assail directly than souron. far smaller army, less mastery of ring, less powerful.
I mostly agree. If Saruman reveals that he's got the Ring, Sauron would surely first send the nazgul to bring it to him (they were regularly visiting Isenguard, e.g. one just passes above the Company right before Amon Hen on its way back to Mordor when Legolas shoots it off the sky). At this point Saruman would refuse to hand it over, and most probably would take control over the nazgul. And in his desperation Sauron would attack with no delay, hoping that Saruman won't have enough time to fully master the Ring. But, given Saruman's character, abilities, skills and knowledge, I think that would be a false hope. (If, despite his magic power, expertise in magic rings and advanced studies on the One Ring he can't gain control over it before Sauron finds out that he has it then the nazgul would just kill him and take the Ring to Sauron, end of story.) So, it would be the fortress of Isenguard, 12k uruk-hai, 9 nazguls, and the Ring that Saruman almost fully controls; on the other side, many hundreds of thousands of men, orcs and other creatures (given that the forces sieging Minas Tirith were around 100k, and due to Gandalf "it was only one of the many armies of Mordor", it would be at least half million), and diminished Sauron with no Ring. At this point we could start contemplating if the Ring gives Saruman enough advantage to win such a battle (based on the book it probably would), but I don't even think that there would be a battle: whatever army Sauron sends would most likely just change sides and follow the new Dark Lord. Soon after that, Saruman would be ruling Middle-Earth.
With the Ring, Saruman now controls all three Elven Rings (which are currently wielded by Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond) as well as all Nine (i.e. the Nazgul). He can instantly read the minds of all three, and will command the Nine. Isengard is now as close to indestructible as Lothlorien and Rivendell. Saruman is going to look to grab the loyalty/obedience of the Orcs of Moria, as well as those of the Misty Mountains--and the Ring of Fire helps him accomplish this. Isengard seems to me pretty much in no immediate danger at all. Rather, he will simply grow in power. And with control of the Ring of Fire, Saruman has less to fear from the Ents. Because Saruman is so mighty he can wield the FULL power of the Ring. At the very least, he is now as mighty as Gandalf the White--and of course knows everything Gandalf is thinking, and controls Gandalf's Ring. Denethor will not lend aid to Rohan, focusing instead on defending Gondor against Mordor. Meanwhile the Nazgul make their way to Isengard to serve their new master, Saruman. In the books, the Ents did not flood Isengard by destroying any damn. They had to divert a river to flood. Sauron has the advantage of enormous military strength, but would have to cross Gondor and Rohan to attack Isengard. This means Saruman has an enormous advantage.
BUILD ME AN ARMY YESSSS!!!!!!! Great video guys I love what if videos and are you going to do WHAT IF live stream one more time? P.s. both lines are magnificent so use sometimes Aragorn line too!!
Since you mentioned explosives and Hobbits doing their thing, it would have been very fitting for Merry and Pippin to blow up the dam, even in the original story. Not only were the materials accessible, but they set off the firework at the beginning of the series, so it would have been a fun homage to that. it could have been a vital role that saved the Ents from Isengard's fires.
Very good point there when you say that Saruman and Sauron are both of a similar race. I can see that Sauron might have been nervous about challenging Saruman, whilst Sauron not being in his most powerful figure! Very nice!
Even if Eomer's company did destroy the uruk host, we can imagine that the ring could escape the same way merry and pipin did in the cannon, however, In tTT, Gimli, Aragon and Legolas see an old man ( presumably Saruman, which is later confirmed by Gandalf) on the edge of their firelight. So Saruman may just capture the ring in fangorn and take it back to isenguard himself. This would avoid breaking cannon too much, as in this scenario Eomer's company would still be riding up the entwash to intercept the Uruks.
Been reading Two Towers in the last few days. A few things that are relevant: 1) Saruman was in Rohan and the hunters saw him when they were looking through the remains of Ugluk and his troops. That would mean, presumably, that if Ugluk had managed to evade the Rohirrim for one more day, Saruman would personally met them, found the ring, and more than likely need to kill the orcs loyal to Sauron. He would/could have the ring before the hunters met Gandalf or shortly after. There could have been a battle between Gandalf and Saruman with the ring right there and then. Saruman might have killed Gandalf and the hunters, assuming that he also had Ugluk and his forces at hand as well. 2) Gandalf says that Sauron is currently attacking Minas Tirith because Sauron's expectation was that someone powerful has the ring and that they would use Minas Tirith as a base. If he found out that Saruman had the ring, I don't see why he wouldn't put Minas Tirith on the backburner and head to Isengard and claim his prize. Once Sauron had the ring, everything else would fall into place.
Definitely like this vid but I want to point a few things out In the books the Ents don't break the dam they just redirected the river also Tolkien said that before the Orthanc Rohan wars the Rohirrim numbered over 12,000 also who said Rohan would have to Storm Orthanc they could just hold them in there while they try to hold Mordor I think Erebor would have fallen eventually also Aragorn could theoretically call the Oathbreakers to the Black Gate to fight the battle there
I think you missed an opportunity right in the beginning to change the entire attitude of gondor. Based on this story, frodo and Sam are taken instead of pippin and Mari. Could that change the dynamics of that battle and maybe causes boramir to live instead of die, which changes the entire mood of denethor. This could change things dramatically
I’m not sure Sauron would sit back and allow the other two sides to duke it out. Wouldn’t seeing another Maiar with the ring come as a direct threat? When he thought Aragorn had the ring he rushed all his forces to the black gate, I think he would challenge Saruman directly.
"Build me an army worthy of Mordor." was a legendary intro, most of us missed it a lot already, and it surely fits the context of the video, but, please, do not be quick to abandon: "The blade that was broken shall return to Minas Tirith." - since it goes perfectly with a theme of the new channel. Also - you haven't considered the possibility of Saruman, in possession of the One Ring, being able of breaking the connection between Sauron and the Ringwraiths, since he was a Maiar too, and the Nazgûl - however powerful - were just human wraiths.
I think Sauron would immediately march with a huge army to isengard and get his ring back. Wether by a short negotiation or by force. But this was his most important target the whole time. He also attacks the free people because he thinks they could use the ring against him. This circumestance is even more possible under Saruman.
Man now this is a good contender with the what if gandalf took the ring I love both theory's it would be awesome to see either of them in a what if fanfic book or film I'd pay for that man would be fun
I liked "Nerd of the Rings" fan theory over the topic and the what if Galadriel took the ring. In summary, Gandalf and Galadriel would defeat Sauron, but both would become more terrifying and evil than Sauron was.
I feel something of importance that would change this heavily is if Gandalf can even free Theoden from Saruman's control. If he has the ring, then could Gandalf have even freed him from an empowered Saruman?
so when sauron galadriel and gandalf get the ring they all get a huge power boost but when saruman get the ring he still get his ass kick by gandalf the white. they forget saruman was the Head of the White Council, Chief of the Wizards that studied how to wield the one ring his whole life.
Winging it has limits, boys. You would need to explain how the Uruks, not only escape Eomir's and the Rohirrim's patrol, but also how they could ever escape Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli _all_ the way back to Isengard when we know, at one point, they will encounter Eomir who will give them horses.
After the defense of Gondor at the council, Gandalf explains, sauron presumes one of them has the ring, though has not put it on to claim ownership. Gandalf also says it will take time to learn how to wield it to full effect. Hence marching out to the gate is premature. Hence, if saruman gains the ring, he might be able to learn a few things just by examining it, but to fully master it, he must put it on and exert ownership. Once he does so, sauron will know and must rush at once with all force to orthanc before sauron can arrive and break its defense. It is possible saruman can command the nine. Gandalf must rally the others and arrange for saruman and sauron to be greatly weakened
One thing you forget, Saruman stated that if he had the Ring, the Nazghul would bow to him and the Witchking does not contest this claim. Gandalf the Grey was able to fight the Nazghul to a draw on Weathertop in the books and Saruman is at least on par with him in power. Not only that, he has the ability and power like Galadriel and Gandalf to actually wield the Ring, thus potentially giving him Dominion over what was created through its power. It's entirely possible that Saruman would be able to control the orcs of Sauron.
I think Sauron would have withdrawn to let gondor assist Rohan, so he could move forward with his attack while gondor isn't at full strength in Minas tirith. A long and bloody siege, ending in worm tongues betrayal, would ensue. All the while Sauron waiting to make his move. In a desperate dying attempt to keep his strength saruman inadvertently restores saurons physical form...
“I know what you seek, though you do not name it. I have it not, as surely its servants perceive without telling; for if I had it, then you would bow before me and call me Lord.” Saruman to the Witch King in Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth. This makes me think Saruman would have more of an edge as he'd basically be able to take the most powerful serverts of Sauron.
A three way clash between the free peoples helped by Gandalf, Saruman the Lord of Isengard and his horde, and Sauron would be nutty. Imagine a threeway clash Gandalf and Saruman vs Sauron.
You guys should do what ifs but on the good side,like some role reversals. For example: What if peregrine took was the ring bearer instead? Do you think he would've been so foolish that he would give the ring to the enemy willingly?
Well, if Saruman took the One, both Elrond and Galadriel would know it in the very same instance. So, we have to ask: would Saruman be able to bend the Three to his will, or would the Three remain free? I know Saruman was a Maia, but let us not forget that his body greatly restricted his power. Either way, I think both Elrond and Galadriel would feel forced to gather what remained of their armies and march south. Finally we would be able to see what the true power of Glorfindel looked like! And with the ring in the hands of Saruman, would Sauron still attack Lothlórien and Thranduil? I know that at that point there weren't many elves left, but they were able to defeat the forces of Dol Guldur by themselves. I know Lothlórien was protected by the power of Nenya, but Thranduil did a great job with no rings at his disposal! And even if the elves wouldn't be enough to bring the victory to the side of good, I'm sure the Valar would mess heavily with Saruman. Eru resurrected Gandalf because he believed in his mission and I believe the eagles showed up at the Morannon because it was Manwë who sent them. If Saruman, who was sent by the Valar, had taken the ring and destroyed the forces of good; I'm sure the Valar would even have sent an OP character like Eärendil to Isengard to correct their mistake! Just think about it: when he resurrected Gandalf, Eru showed that he didn't want Sauron to get the ring back. But this scenario is even worse: Middle-earth would fall under a Dark Lord's dominion (either Saruman or Sauron) because of the direct influence of the Valar, since they were the ones who sent Saruman there. So, in the end, if nothing else worked, a Deus Ex Machina it would have been
I thought Saruman wanted the one ring to study it, so he could craft his own more powerful ring (being a Maiar of Aulë), that could control all the magic rings?
If Sam and Frodo had been captured by Orcs, Frodo would at some point realize the necessity of using the Ring to escape. On his way back to the Anduin, he would have encountered Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, Merry and Pippin coming to the rescue. At that point one or two of them would have abandoned the rescue to continue the mission to Mordor with Frodo. The others would have continued to try to prevent Sam's falling into the clutches of Saruman. Perhaps they would encounter Gandalf the White and Treebeard; perhaps not. If so, Isengard falls and the story continues. If not, Helm's Deep falls and then Minas Tirith.
obv answer is gandalf just moves fangorn ontop of isengard. all the orcs die. only question is can saruman use the power of the ring properly to destroy the forest or not. also forgot that saruman is probably not at full strength cuz he wasnt sent as a warrior. nazgul bound to ring. possible they even have to obey saruman. lots of stuff u guys miss.
One thing to consider is that if the Ents broke the damn, and the valley was flooded, 1. Would the water break the walls to such a degree that it would flood and destroy everything inside ?? And 2, what about the Rhohirum that are camped and stationed outside the wall during the siege ? They would of died, no ?
The only way I can see something like this happening is if one of the ring wraths recover the one gone all the way to where saruman was and told him to hold on to it and when the dark lord of mordor was able to regain his strength and his powers the ring wrath who gave the one ring to saruman would tell him that saruman is holding on to you're ring for you after hearing that sauron would have one of 2 options for the ring wrath in question option 1 he thinks the ring wrath for information about where his ring is and who have it then goes to get back his form saruman or option 2 he scold the ring wrath after hearing that saruman haves his ring he later goes to get his ring back
I'm surprised this has not had more mentions. If the Uruk Hai stay to defend Orthanc then the Huorns actually have a shorter journey and could readily accompany the Ents. Huorns are described as slow in places but not so slow that they cannot reach Helms Deep in about the same time as the Uruk Hai in the actual story. I don't think event a fortress protected by Saruman brand flamethrowers and similar could survive getting hit by a forest travelling at Orc fast march speed. This has the potential for the victory over Saruman being even more decisive and actually creating a more active alliance between Rohan and Fangorn (Ents and Huorns). This could result in the Battle of Pelenor Fields including Mûmakil getting punched out by Ents. I think this rivals Eagle Air Mobile Ents, let alone ripping trolls arms off and hitting them with the soggy end
I agree. Except I think if Galadriel, Elrond, or Gandalf had taken the one ring, each of them could possibly destroy Sauron and become the next dark lord. So it still wouldn't have been much different for everyone else, except that the ring doesn't necessarily end up on Sauron's hand again.
Having the ring, Saruman also controls the nine (Nazgul) so they could be an additional offensive or defensive elements for Saruman against Sauron if Saruman believes (sees) Sauron is attacking him.
I think Aragorn would've gone for the army of the dead in this scenario. But the question is, how would they be used? Would Aragorn demand them do more than just fear the corsairs of Umbar? Imagine the wraiths attacking Orthanc and possibly not only demoralizing but absolutely scattering the Orc army. Could've changed this scenario a bit?
Several others here have noted the One Ring has a will of its own. If the Uruks had captured Frodo and the Ring, any/all of them would have **easily** been tempted to take the Ring for themselves and put it on. That would immediately summon the Nazgul. And it's often said that the Ring "wants to get back to its master." Otherwise, Frodo would have been smart enough to put on the Ring to escape the Uruks. While an interesting thought exercise (re: Saruman), no way the Ring gets to Isengard.
1 ring to rule them all, means that saruman could controls the nazgul. Also since he has expertise in rings of power, he probably know how to control them. Also there is a really long time between Mordor taking Gondor and marching on Izengard... byt hat time saruman has even more troops, and probably the goblins from moria, or other allies etc... Also the men of the south would not join him to fight saruman, so no war elephants etc...
@The Broken Sword Also- guys, don't forget that The Ring also has a mind of its own, can hear it's master's call & has "betrayed" many in the past who thought they would gain absolute power over everything because they have The Ring. So I think adding this information into Every "What if..." is only fair & will bring the true ending to each version.
If I remember correctly, didn't Tolkien say in one of his letters that even with the ring the only being in Middle-Earth that could defeat Sauron was Gandalf. If so, that leads to the possibility that Saruman might again try to figure out some way to ally with the Free Peoples against Sauron. I don't think that would have worked but it makes an interesting alternative.
I believe that if Saruman took hold of the one ring Sauron would play to Saruman's ego and offer him power and anything he wished for just to get his ring back. Saruman in his would be wooed by Sauron's proposal and hand over the ring. Sauron having the ring returned to him would inform Saruman he only told him what he wanted to hear and would reclaim his ring and kill Saurman thereby bringing about an age of darkness.
I seriously doubt Saruman once empowered with the Ring would willingly give it up to his rival. He sought the Ring to use its power all for himself, whatever he may have agreed with Sauron through the palantir.
I would imagine if Saruman took the ring the events which occurred to celebrimbor in the second age would happen again. Sauron would raise an army and attack Isengard head on. The real question is to what the orcs who serve Saruman do, do they stay loyal to morgoths most senior general or do they serve Saruman. If the events as you described were to happen I don’t believe Rohan would ever lay siege to Isengard. I would imagine Sarumans arrogance would cause him to send his army to attack the free people. And the events would unfold similar to the books/movie
Well done...however, once Sauraman gained control of the ring, he would then control the nazgul and....wait for it......he would also control the wearers of the three elven rings as well....
so when sauron galadriel and gandalf get the ring they all get a huge power boost but when saruman get the ring he still get his ass kick by gandalf the white? Head of the White Council, Chief of the Wizards that saruman? the one who studied how to wield the one ring his whole life that saruman? such a bad take
can you paint me a scenario wherein. King Theoden actually listened to Gandalf and rode out to meet Saruman’s Urukai army, instead of going to Helm’s Deep, as you’ve mentioned on the video that Rohirim’s strength is in its cavalry. What would’ve been the outcome?
Doesn't the Ring serve the Dark Lord's will? It certainly would undermine Saruman. He's basically an agent of Mordor now. I think Saruman at most could make more submissive rings in the mistaken belief he was gaining influence. Infact he'd be spreading the Dark Lord's dominion.
It all kinda comes back to the advice Gandalf gives Frodo in Moria which is that Frodo was meant to have the ring. In other words there was no way for anyone else to beat Sauron even if they used the ring and that very specific sets of circumstances had to occur to actually beat Sauron.
Given that Sauron immediately launched his attack on Gondor after Aragorn revealed himself in the Palantir, I think Sauron would have immediately attacked Saruman if he learned that Saruman had the ring. Potentially just sending all the Nazgul to Isengard, which would have been the quickest way. Given that Orthanc is a fair distance from Mordor and Saruman would be using the ring, I think he could have likely defeated the Nazgul in battle or stopped them from attacking using his now amplified voice powers. Although with Sauron's will totally fixated on the Nazgul and the ring, Saruman might lose. Potentially, the only way Saruman defeats the Nazgul is by mastering the ring himself, which I think he could do, but he would likely need more time to study the Ring.
I wonder though, if the Nazgul would have been bent to Saruman's will instead. He says in the Fellowship that if he had the Ring they would call him master instead. So if they led Sauron's forces against Isengard they might be turned. which would then shift the balance of power heavily in Saruman's favor. He'd have the Nine, an even larger army, and of course, the Ring, with which I think he would be able to defeat Sauron.
The Ring only has one master and that is Sauron. The ring will always try to return itself to its Master thus at some point it will betray Saruman to ensure its goal.
I actually think saruman would be able to control the nazgul, being the bearer of the one ring to whom the nazgul are bound to serve. Also his incredible powers of manipulation might have to come into play there
I doubt anyone other than Sauron could wield the full power of the ring. He forged it in the story it says he pours all his hate and malice, almost if you will like a horcrux to Voldermort. Yes, all could receive it's benefits but for whatever reason it didn't affect the hobbits to a huge extent other than making the wearer invisible and just the possession of providing of long life. Yet whenever the ring was put on, Sauron was instantly aware of it because he was not only just tied to him, it was part of him. Just my opinion.
So here's a what if idea: what if Frodo died from his wounds on the way to Rivendell and one of the other hobbits becomes ring bearer? How do the interactions with Golum change? Do they get lost/captured? Does the fellowship not break up?
You make some good points but there are few things that seem incorrect. First, Sauron never thought that anyone would ever want to destroy the ring, it was the whole premise of the books. That was why mount doom was never defended. Second, Sauron knew about Saruman betrayal before Frodo even left the Shire so there is no way he would have ever believed Saruman to give him the ring back. Saruman knew that Sauron found out that is why he desperately wanted to capture the halflings at amon hen. The One Ring was the only thing Dark Lord really wanted and it had priority over everything else if he knew the location he would have sent majority of his forces to retrieve it. Last but not the least it seems like you completely forget how powerful is the ring in capable hands. It enhances the powers of the bearer, which in Saruman's case would make him godlike. He might be able to take over control over orks and weak willed humans using his voice. Nazguls would become his to command.
Interesting discussion. I would like to think sauron can never be ultimately successful due to the fate of EA being prewritten by the songs of the spirits before creation. Maybe in this sense nothing which did not come to pass could have come to pass, or otherwise if things could come to pass which did not come to pass regardless this could not lead to an ultimate victory of Sauron.
Rohan wouldn’t necessarily have to attack Isengard. Instead, to quote Gimli “let him stay there, let him rot”. If he attempts to march his army of 10k Uruk-hai out of Isengard, Rohan would have a major advantage even with only 6k Calvary, but I’m guessing much more then 6k by that point. You can use hit and run tactics to gradually thin out their numbers and scatter them, just like the Mongols. (That’s how the Dothraki should have been used against the army of the dead in Game of Thrones 🙄)
Bottom line: Saruman would fall, Sauron would get his ring back, and the great darkness would hit Middle Earth. Doubtful the Valar would come forth for another War of Wrath as during the First Age. Would Gondor come to the aid of Rohan? Of course not, not under Denethor. He hinted that Gondor had taken the brunt of the assaults of Mordor with no real assistance from anybody - so why should Gondor help those who did NOT help them? Saruman had an army, but it paled in comparison to that of Mordor. The Nazgul would fain control of Saruman, while finding a way to remove the ring from Saruman. Finally - the ring was made by Sauron. He was it's master, and it would do everything it could to return to HIM. I seriously doubt even Saruman would have time to "master" the ring before the full might of Mordor came down on him.
Wow. 2 years late to the party but isengard is surrounded by a stone wall (a circle wall. The Ents destroyed it with no trouble. But Orthanc is indestructible. Built by Gondor/Nuemor.....
Hey guys, if the situation with saurman became dire enough, wouldn't elrond feel the need to tell aragorn to go recruit the dead men of dunharrow for the isengard siege?
Are you guys happy BUILD ME AN ARMY is back?!?!
I got a tingle down the spine when I heard it ;)
BUILD ME AN ARMY YESSSS!!!!!!! Great video guys I love what if videos and are you going to WHAT IF live stream one more time?
P.s. both lines are magnificent so use sometimes Aragorn line too!!
OH MY GOD YAS!
If you ever, ever, change it into something different, I ll track all people responsible, and slap them, horribly.
Put a big ol smile on my face this morning :)
Build me an army worthy of Angmar
Here's an idea use " Build me an army worthy of Mordor." for reuploads then the Aragorn line for new content.
I like that idea
PERFECT!!!
That's a great idea
Where was Gondor?
I'm definitely a fan of the "BUILD ME AN ARMY WORTHY OF MORDOR" intro. Love your content!
If Saruman had the ring and being of the maiar bent it to his will, wouldn't the witch king bow and call him lord along with many of Saurons servants?
Yes much like Frodo did to Gollum, and he was no maiar.
@@Joshwaheazo yes also Saruman says the Nazgûl would serve him if he had the ring
@@charlie7531 He does say “You already know that I don't have it, because if I did, you would bow down and call me Lord".
But Tolkien has already answered this outside of the book. He said 1) the Ring bearer, if powerful enough to begin with, can use it to control other Ring-bearers and former Ring-bearers, such as the Nazgul, but 2) it takes time even for a wizard to fully master the Ring’s powers. Therefore, Sauron’s strategy is to go to war, to force the Ring-bearer to declare himself before he’s had time to master all the powers.
If you want another direct quote there is one other I can think of. Frodo asks Galadriel why, as Ring bearer, he can’t control the Nazgul. Galadriel responds that “First you would have to train your mind in the habit of domination and control of others. But - do not try, for you would destroy yourself!”
@@Joshwaheazo yes, but the question then becomes how much time does it take.
Also could Frodo have controlled the Nazgûl when he claims the ring at mount doom?
@@charlie7531 Frodo was probably not powerful enough to begin with so it would take much longer.
I have never found any reference to the passage of time; a bit longer than it take to go to war I guess. To master the Ring, in the sense you're talking about, means to utterly wrest control of it from Sauron; it's subjective I'm afraid.
"Where was Gondor when Orthanc rose?" lol
Merry amd Pippin would be watching the battle on the dam whilst eating 2nd breakfast.
Pippin drops a nut which falls into a crack in the dam, Pippin steps on it when trying to retrieve it pushing it further into the stone cracking it all the way down causing the dam to break, the 2 hobbits then surf on a broken rock all the way to Gandalf's feet who proceeds to scold him "Fool of a took!"
Theoden would not be freed from Saruman's control, so Saruman would still have control of Rohan, he would try to gather an army against Sauron ally with Gondor, and maybe the elves too.
Then he conquers all.
2 scenes from the books make me think that Saruman would win:
1) when confronting Saruman *after* his power was diminished, many men were still swayed by Sarumans voice.
2) when discussing what to do after the battle of the pelenor fields, Gandalf states that Sauron would strike swiftly, because it takes time to master the Ring and turn your mind to the domination of others.
Saruman would likely wait and try to learn how to use the ring. However since his mind is already bent to domination, it might not take him as long.
Using his voice empowered by the ring, he may even be able to turn a good amount of the Rohirrim to his side ('but to those whom the voice conquered, it remained with them forever after, urging them and whispering' - not an exact quote, but close enough).
He would likely still want the great (Aragorn, Gandalf, Eomer etc) slain, but the rest would die or serve.
Sauron would likely not wait, once he had discovered it, but he may be unable to win against Saruman (It is implied that Galadriel possessing the ring would replace - defeat - Sauron and she is an elf, not a maiar).
Sieging Isengard would probably take too long and Saruman could grow his power through the Ring.
As regards the Nazgul: If Saruman can't command them (maybe he could actually), then he would likely still be able to hold them off on his own. (Gandalf mentioned that he may try to fight the winged messengers - nazgul - when riding away from their confrontation.)
Grond could maybe crack Isengards gate, so maaaybe Sauron would win.. possible.. But he would certainly unleash all of Mordor immideately against Isengard once he knew Saruman had the ring and tried to make excuses for not handing it over. so maybe 60/40 that Saruman could survive (and then win)
I think it is likely that Saruman could win the dominion of middle earth..
Yes, very good comment and hope others will read it. I was going to post something along very similar lines. It was implied that any of the higher beings still present in Middle-earth attempting to use the One Ring (whether for good or personal gain) such as Gandalf, Elrond, Galadriel, etc., would not cause the Ring to eventually fall into Sauron's grasp, but instead corrupt and _aggrandize_ the bearers to such a degree they'd become 'dark lords' unto themselves, possibly eventually overthrowing Sauron. Galadriel's dialogue with Frodo at the Mirror is highly revelatory to that effect, and she was 'only' a High Elf, not a Maia.
Regarding Saruman who is the topic of this video, even without the One Ring Saruman's Voice was nearly as powerful as Sauron's Eye. Both captured and beguiled the unwitting victim. However, once empowered with the Ring, imagine Saruman with a megaphone... I think he'd become the undisputed ruler of Middle-earth or damn near to it. Sauron would sooner or later be relegated to the confines of Mordor as he was in the past when the Dúnedain were at the peak of their strength. Maybe Saruman would not be able to topple Sauron in his fortress of Barad-dûr, but Sauron would more or less be holed up in there for the duration.
In the LOTR, concern among the leaders of the Free Peoples for the Ring somehow ending in Saruman's hands was almost as great as it was for Sauron recovering it. I think you're right on the money with this hypothetical outcome analysis.
galadriel was one of the greatest elves to exist. saruman was limited in his power when sent to middle earth if im not mistaken.
galadriel with ring probably far surpassed anybody or anything in middle earth unless a truly powerful maia on souron level descended. even then she maybe won.
strong elves >weak maia. strong elf with most of souron's essence bent to their will within the ring > strong maia.
saruman weaker than souron if neither have the ring. combined holders of elven rings vs saruman with one ring. elven holders probably win. throw in glorfindel for good measure and its virtually assured. 3 maia level beings, 2 enhanced with elven rings, plus elrond who is probably boosted to maia level when he uses his ring. no way saruman can win.
saruman much more practical for the powerful such as the 4 listed above to assail directly than souron. far smaller army, less mastery of ring, less powerful.
I mostly agree. If Saruman reveals that he's got the Ring, Sauron would surely first send the nazgul to bring it to him (they were regularly visiting Isenguard, e.g. one just passes above the Company right before Amon Hen on its way back to Mordor when Legolas shoots it off the sky). At this point Saruman would refuse to hand it over, and most probably would take control over the nazgul. And in his desperation Sauron would attack with no delay, hoping that Saruman won't have enough time to fully master the Ring. But, given Saruman's character, abilities, skills and knowledge, I think that would be a false hope. (If, despite his magic power, expertise in magic rings and advanced studies on the One Ring he can't gain control over it before Sauron finds out that he has it then the nazgul would just kill him and take the Ring to Sauron, end of story.)
So, it would be the fortress of Isenguard, 12k uruk-hai, 9 nazguls, and the Ring that Saruman almost fully controls; on the other side, many hundreds of thousands of men, orcs and other creatures (given that the forces sieging Minas Tirith were around 100k, and due to Gandalf "it was only one of the many armies of Mordor", it would be at least half million), and diminished Sauron with no Ring. At this point we could start contemplating if the Ring gives Saruman enough advantage to win such a battle (based on the book it probably would), but I don't even think that there would be a battle: whatever army Sauron sends would most likely just change sides and follow the new Dark Lord. Soon after that, Saruman would be ruling Middle-Earth.
I think he’d want to keep Gandalf to have an almost-equal to pontificate to…
I'm binge watching these videos back to front, it's nice to put a face to the voice 😊
Almost back to 10k already! I hope you guys build as fast as you did before, that was always impressive to see!
Thanks! Sadly I don't think we will ever reach those numbers again! Hopefully though!! :)
@@TheBrokenSword I have faith! The power of LotR is too stronk
It will grow much higher soon enough, especially with quality content like this.
The internet been down all day so this is the best part of the day right now
😁😁
Perfect! Love hearing the old intro 🤣✌
With the Ring, Saruman now controls all three Elven Rings (which are currently wielded by Gandalf, Galadriel, and Elrond) as well as all Nine (i.e. the Nazgul). He can instantly read the minds of all three, and will command the Nine. Isengard is now as close to indestructible as Lothlorien and Rivendell. Saruman is going to look to grab the loyalty/obedience of the Orcs of Moria, as well as those of the Misty Mountains--and the Ring of Fire helps him accomplish this. Isengard seems to me pretty much in no immediate danger at all. Rather, he will simply grow in power. And with control of the Ring of Fire, Saruman has less to fear from the Ents.
Because Saruman is so mighty he can wield the FULL power of the Ring. At the very least, he is now as mighty as Gandalf the White--and of course knows everything Gandalf is thinking, and controls Gandalf's Ring.
Denethor will not lend aid to Rohan, focusing instead on defending Gondor against Mordor.
Meanwhile the Nazgul make their way to Isengard to serve their new master, Saruman.
In the books, the Ents did not flood Isengard by destroying any damn. They had to divert a river to flood.
Sauron has the advantage of enormous military strength, but would have to cross Gondor and Rohan to attack Isengard. This means Saruman has an enormous advantage.
Hello guys! Love the new title and audio lead in!!!!!! The reasoning behind the name change is quite fitting. Have of course subscribed already!!!!
Thanks so much!
BUILD ME AN ARMY YESSSS!!!!!!! Great video guys I love what if videos and are you going to do WHAT IF live stream one more time?
P.s. both lines are magnificent so use sometimes Aragorn line too!!
Since you mentioned explosives and Hobbits doing their thing, it would have been very fitting for Merry and Pippin to blow up the dam, even in the original story.
Not only were the materials accessible, but they set off the firework at the beginning of the series, so it would have been a fun homage to that. it could have been a vital role that saved the Ents from Isengard's fires.
This video arrived precisely when I needed it
Love all the maps and visuals
YESSSSSSS!!!! our bomb intro is baaaack!!!
Haha. By popular demand ;)
beørn being airdropped into the battle field while turninh into a bear will forever be the best part of the hobbit
😂 👍🏼
"Build me an Army, full of Broken Swords"
Great video and what if
Very good point there when you say that Saruman and Sauron are both of a similar race. I can see that Sauron might have been nervous about challenging Saruman, whilst Sauron not being in his most powerful figure! Very nice!
Even if Eomer's company did destroy the uruk host, we can imagine that the ring could escape the same way merry and pipin did in the cannon, however, In tTT, Gimli, Aragon and Legolas see an old man ( presumably Saruman, which is later confirmed by Gandalf) on the edge of their firelight. So Saruman may just capture the ring in fangorn and take it back to isenguard himself. This would avoid breaking cannon too much, as in this scenario Eomer's company would still be riding up the entwash to intercept the Uruks.
Been reading Two Towers in the last few days.
A few things that are relevant:
1) Saruman was in Rohan and the hunters saw him when they were looking through the remains of Ugluk and his troops. That would mean, presumably, that if Ugluk had managed to evade the Rohirrim for one more day, Saruman would personally met them, found the ring, and more than likely need to kill the orcs loyal to Sauron. He would/could have the ring before the hunters met Gandalf or shortly after.
There could have been a battle between Gandalf and Saruman with the ring right there and then. Saruman might have killed Gandalf and the hunters, assuming that he also had Ugluk and his forces at hand as well.
2) Gandalf says that Sauron is currently attacking Minas Tirith because Sauron's expectation was that someone powerful has the ring and that they would use Minas Tirith as a base.
If he found out that Saruman had the ring, I don't see why he wouldn't put Minas Tirith on the backburner and head to Isengard and claim his prize. Once Sauron had the ring, everything else would fall into place.
I love this kind of video, watching you talk about it :) Enjoyed it a lot!
Glad you enjoyed it! :)
Definitely like this vid but I want to point a few things out In the books the Ents don't break the dam they just redirected the river also Tolkien said that before the Orthanc Rohan wars the Rohirrim numbered over 12,000 also who said Rohan would have to Storm Orthanc they could just hold them in there while they try to hold Mordor I think Erebor would have fallen eventually also Aragorn could theoretically call the Oathbreakers to the Black Gate to fight the battle there
, and . are nice things to use..
just gotta say im glad you guys are back. i miss all the content you guys made. ty keep going
Glad to be back 😊
I think that saruman wouldn't be prepared for the ents, since as Gandalf said, the more power saruman had, the more he forgot
Great episode guys :D
Love the old intro!
I’d absolutely LOVE to see more of these improvised what-if videos
I think you missed an opportunity right in the beginning to change the entire attitude of gondor. Based on this story, frodo and Sam are taken instead of pippin and Mari. Could that change the dynamics of that battle and maybe causes boramir to live instead of die, which changes the entire mood of denethor. This could change things dramatically
I’m not sure Sauron would sit back and allow the other two sides to duke it out. Wouldn’t seeing another Maiar with the ring come as a direct threat? When he thought Aragorn had the ring he rushed all his forces to the black gate, I think he would challenge Saruman directly.
True but by that point, Saruman's power had been broken. Sauron's only foe was the Free Peoples.
I’ve enjoyed all the content so far 🗡⚔️
"Build me an army worthy of Mordor." was a legendary intro, most of us missed it a lot already, and it surely fits the context of the video, but, please, do not be quick to abandon: "The blade that was broken shall return to Minas Tirith." - since it goes perfectly with a theme of the new channel. Also - you haven't considered the possibility of Saruman, in possession of the One Ring, being able of breaking the connection between Sauron and the Ringwraiths, since he was a Maiar too, and the Nazgûl - however powerful - were just human wraiths.
I think Sauron would immediately march with a huge army to isengard and get his ring back. Wether by a short negotiation or by force. But this was his most important target the whole time. He also attacks the free people because he thinks they could use the ring against him. This circumestance is even more possible under Saruman.
Love these what if scenarios ! Often daydream about this kind of stuff.. Nice to have the build me an army intro back ;)
They are real fun to do. Just letting my general daily thoughts come out on camera haha
When the dam was broken and that orc got thrown into the water when it went slow motion, I was like "have a drink." XD
Man now this is a good contender with the what if gandalf took the ring I love both theory's it would be awesome to see either of them in a what if fanfic book or film I'd pay for that man would be fun
I liked "Nerd of the Rings" fan theory over the topic and the what if Galadriel took the ring. In summary, Gandalf and Galadriel would defeat Sauron, but both would become more terrifying and evil than Sauron was.
Me after hearing the intro
-looks like meat backs on the menu boys
I feel something of importance that would change this heavily is if Gandalf can even free Theoden from Saruman's control. If he has the ring, then could Gandalf have even freed him from an empowered Saruman?
so when sauron galadriel and gandalf get the ring they all get a huge power boost but when saruman get the ring he still get his ass kick by gandalf the white. they forget saruman was the Head of the White Council, Chief of the Wizards that studied how to wield the one ring his whole life.
Winging it has limits, boys.
You would need to explain how the Uruks, not only escape Eomir's and the Rohirrim's patrol, but also how they could ever escape Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli _all_ the way back to Isengard when we know, at one point, they will encounter Eomir who will give them horses.
After the defense of Gondor at the council, Gandalf explains, sauron presumes one of them has the ring, though has not put it on to claim ownership. Gandalf also says it will take time to learn how to wield it to full effect. Hence marching out to the gate is premature.
Hence, if saruman gains the ring, he might be able to learn a few things just by examining it, but to fully master it, he must put it on and exert ownership. Once he does so, sauron will know and must rush at once with all force to orthanc before sauron can arrive and break its defense. It is possible saruman can command the nine. Gandalf must rally the others and arrange for saruman and sauron to be greatly weakened
One thing you forget, Saruman stated that if he had the Ring, the Nazghul would bow to him and the Witchking does not contest this claim. Gandalf the Grey was able to fight the Nazghul to a draw on Weathertop in the books and Saruman is at least on par with him in power. Not only that, he has the ability and power like Galadriel and Gandalf to actually wield the Ring, thus potentially giving him Dominion over what was created through its power. It's entirely possible that Saruman would be able to control the orcs of Sauron.
I think Sauron would have withdrawn to let gondor assist Rohan, so he could move forward with his attack while gondor isn't at full strength in Minas tirith. A long and bloody siege, ending in worm tongues betrayal, would ensue. All the while Sauron waiting to make his move. In a desperate dying attempt to keep his strength saruman inadvertently restores saurons physical form...
“I know what you seek, though you do not name it. I have it not, as surely its servants perceive without telling; for if I had it, then you would bow before me and call me Lord.”
Saruman to the Witch King in Unfinished Tales of Númenor and Middle-earth.
This makes me think Saruman would have more of an edge as he'd basically be able to take the most powerful serverts of Sauron.
How about what if Saruman rejoined Gandalf and the path laid out for him by the valar after the ruin of isenguard?
I love this idea!
A lot of bad things can be said about Sauron certainly, but a lack of patience is not one of them.
Credit where credit is due, he's a patient being.
A three way clash between the free peoples helped by Gandalf, Saruman the Lord of Isengard and his horde, and Sauron would be nutty. Imagine a threeway clash Gandalf and Saruman vs Sauron.
You guys should do what ifs but on the good side,like some role reversals. For example: What if peregrine took was the ring bearer instead? Do you think he would've been so foolish that he would give the ring to the enemy willingly?
In the old SPI game, when Sauruman gets the reing, the ringwraiths turn over to him, one at a time, beginning with the weakest.
Well, if Saruman took the One, both Elrond and Galadriel would know it in the very same instance. So, we have to ask: would Saruman be able to bend the Three to his will, or would the Three remain free? I know Saruman was a Maia, but let us not forget that his body greatly restricted his power. Either way, I think both Elrond and Galadriel would feel forced to gather what remained of their armies and march south. Finally we would be able to see what the true power of Glorfindel looked like! And with the ring in the hands of Saruman, would Sauron still attack Lothlórien and Thranduil? I know that at that point there weren't many elves left, but they were able to defeat the forces of Dol Guldur by themselves. I know Lothlórien was protected by the power of Nenya, but Thranduil did a great job with no rings at his disposal! And even if the elves wouldn't be enough to bring the victory to the side of good, I'm sure the Valar would mess heavily with Saruman. Eru resurrected Gandalf because he believed in his mission and I believe the eagles showed up at the Morannon because it was Manwë who sent them. If Saruman, who was sent by the Valar, had taken the ring and destroyed the forces of good; I'm sure the Valar would even have sent an OP character like Eärendil to Isengard to correct their mistake! Just think about it: when he resurrected Gandalf, Eru showed that he didn't want Sauron to get the ring back. But this scenario is even worse: Middle-earth would fall under a Dark Lord's dominion (either Saruman or Sauron) because of the direct influence of the Valar, since they were the ones who sent Saruman there. So, in the end, if nothing else worked, a Deus Ex Machina it would have been
I thought Saruman wanted the one ring to study it, so he could craft his own more powerful ring (being a Maiar of Aulë), that could control all the magic rings?
Saurman actually said 10s of thousands not specifically 10,000 Urks. So basically he had anywhere between 10,000 and 100,000 Urks ready for war.
If Sam and Frodo had been captured by Orcs, Frodo would at some point realize the necessity of using the Ring to escape. On his way back to the Anduin, he would have encountered Aragorn, Gimli, Legolas, Merry and Pippin coming to the rescue. At that point one or two of them would have abandoned the rescue to continue the mission to Mordor with Frodo. The others would have continued to try to prevent Sam's falling into the clutches of Saruman. Perhaps they would encounter Gandalf the White and Treebeard; perhaps not. If so, Isengard falls and the story continues. If not, Helm's Deep falls and then Minas Tirith.
Fantastic discussion
obv answer is gandalf just moves fangorn ontop of isengard. all the orcs die. only question is can saruman use the power of the ring properly to destroy the forest or not.
also forgot that saruman is probably not at full strength cuz he wasnt sent as a warrior.
nazgul bound to ring. possible they even have to obey saruman. lots of stuff u guys miss.
One thing to consider is that if the Ents broke the damn, and the valley was flooded, 1. Would the water break the walls to such a degree that it would flood and destroy everything inside ?? And 2, what about the Rhohirum that are camped and stationed outside the wall during the siege ? They would of died, no ?
The only way I can see something like this happening is if one of the ring wraths recover the one gone all the way to where saruman was and told him to hold on to it and when the dark lord of mordor was able to regain his strength and his powers the ring wrath who gave the one ring to saruman would tell him that saruman is holding on to you're ring for you after hearing that sauron would have one of 2 options for the ring wrath in question option 1 he thinks the ring wrath for information about where his ring is and who have it then goes to get back his form saruman or option 2 he scold the ring wrath after hearing that saruman haves his ring he later goes to get his ring back
Loved this what if scenario
Glad you enjoyed 😊
You should do a video on the combat abilities of sauron at his peak. Like how many could he fight at once and come out victorious
Its not so much the ents dont get me wrong there dangrous but the Huorns are a power to be reckoned with and they make up a large forest force.
I'm surprised this has not had more mentions. If the Uruk Hai stay to defend Orthanc then the Huorns actually have a shorter journey and could readily accompany the Ents. Huorns are described as slow in places but not so slow that they cannot reach Helms Deep in about the same time as the Uruk Hai in the actual story. I don't think event a fortress protected by Saruman brand flamethrowers and similar could survive getting hit by a forest travelling at Orc fast march speed. This has the potential for the victory over Saruman being even more decisive and actually creating a more active alliance between Rohan and Fangorn (Ents and Huorns). This could result in the Battle of Pelenor Fields including Mûmakil getting punched out by Ents. I think this rivals Eagle Air Mobile Ents, let alone ripping trolls arms off and hitting them with the soggy end
I agree. Except I think if Galadriel, Elrond, or Gandalf had taken the one ring, each of them could possibly destroy Sauron and become the next dark lord. So it still wouldn't have been much different for everyone else, except that the ring doesn't necessarily end up on Sauron's hand again.
Silly thought after your comment about Saruman's voice being powerful: a rap battle between Saruman's voice and the Mouth of Sauron.
Having the ring, Saruman also controls the nine (Nazgul) so they could be an additional offensive or defensive elements for Saruman against Sauron if Saruman believes (sees) Sauron is attacking him.
Merry and Pippin would stay as regular sized hobbits because they don't meet treebeard
I think Aragorn would've gone for the army of the dead in this scenario. But the question is, how would they be used? Would Aragorn demand them do more than just fear the corsairs of Umbar? Imagine the wraiths attacking Orthanc and possibly not only demoralizing but absolutely scattering the Orc army. Could've changed this scenario a bit?
Several others here have noted the One Ring has a will of its own. If the Uruks had captured Frodo and the Ring, any/all of them would have **easily** been tempted to take the Ring for themselves and put it on. That would immediately summon the Nazgul. And it's often said that the Ring "wants to get back to its master."
Otherwise, Frodo would have been smart enough to put on the Ring to escape the Uruks.
While an interesting thought exercise (re: Saruman), no way the Ring gets to Isengard.
1 ring to rule them all, means that saruman could controls the nazgul. Also since he has expertise in rings of power, he probably know how to control them. Also there is a really long time between Mordor taking Gondor and marching on Izengard... byt hat time saruman has even more troops, and probably the goblins from moria, or other allies etc... Also the men of the south would not join him to fight saruman, so no war elephants etc...
@The Broken Sword
Also- guys, don't forget that The Ring also has a mind of its own, can hear it's master's call & has "betrayed" many in the past who thought they would gain absolute power over everything because they have The Ring. So I think adding this information into Every "What if..." is only fair & will bring the true ending to each version.
If I remember correctly, didn't Tolkien say in one of his letters that even with the ring the only being in Middle-Earth that could defeat Sauron was Gandalf. If so, that leads to the possibility that Saruman might again try to figure out some way to ally with the Free Peoples against Sauron. I don't think that would have worked but it makes an interesting alternative.
Yaaaas build me an army worthy of Mordor is back! Super excited for this new adventure
I believe that if Saruman took hold of the one ring Sauron would play to Saruman's ego and offer him power and anything he wished for just to get his ring back. Saruman in his would be wooed by Sauron's proposal and hand over the ring. Sauron having the ring returned to him would inform Saruman he only told him what he wanted to hear and would reclaim his ring and kill Saurman thereby bringing about an age of darkness.
I seriously doubt Saruman once empowered with the Ring would willingly give it up to his rival. He sought the Ring to use its power all for himself, whatever he may have agreed with Sauron through the palantir.
ok how about this - what if Saruman had stayed good AND taken the ring?
So essentially grumpy gandalf gets the ring. Besides if gandalf would be corrupted I believe anyone would be
Ring corrupts those who win the ring by force instantly so giving the ring to pippin making him more foolishly
I would imagine if Saruman took the ring the events which occurred to celebrimbor in the second age would happen again. Sauron would raise an army and attack Isengard head on. The real question is to what the orcs who serve Saruman do, do they stay loyal to morgoths most senior general or do they serve Saruman. If the events as you described were to happen I don’t believe Rohan would ever lay siege to Isengard. I would imagine Sarumans arrogance would cause him to send his army to attack the free people. And the events would unfold similar to the books/movie
Well done...however, once Sauraman gained control of the ring, he would then control the nazgul and....wait for it......he would also control the wearers of the three elven rings as well....
so when sauron galadriel and gandalf get the ring they all get a huge power boost but when saruman get the ring he still get his ass kick by gandalf the white? Head of the White Council, Chief of the Wizards that saruman? the one who studied how to wield the one ring his whole life that saruman? such a bad take
I think a good one would be what if boromir succeeded In convincing the fellowship to go to gondor
can you paint me a scenario wherein. King Theoden actually listened to Gandalf and rode out to meet Saruman’s Urukai army, instead of going to Helm’s Deep, as you’ve mentioned on the video that Rohirim’s strength is in its cavalry. What would’ve been the outcome?
Doesn't the Ring serve the Dark Lord's will? It certainly would undermine Saruman. He's basically an agent of Mordor now.
I think Saruman at most could make more submissive rings in the mistaken belief he was gaining influence. Infact he'd be spreading the Dark Lord's dominion.
It all kinda comes back to the advice Gandalf gives Frodo in Moria which is that Frodo was meant to have the ring. In other words there was no way for anyone else to beat Sauron even if they used the ring and that very specific sets of circumstances had to occur to actually beat Sauron.
Given that Sauron immediately launched his attack on Gondor after Aragorn revealed himself in the Palantir, I think Sauron would have immediately attacked Saruman if he learned that Saruman had the ring. Potentially just sending all the Nazgul to Isengard, which would have been the quickest way.
Given that Orthanc is a fair distance from Mordor and Saruman would be using the ring, I think he could have likely defeated the Nazgul in battle or stopped them from attacking using his now amplified voice powers.
Although with Sauron's will totally fixated on the Nazgul and the ring, Saruman might lose. Potentially, the only way Saruman defeats the Nazgul is by mastering the ring himself, which I think he could do, but he would likely need more time to study the Ring.
I wonder though, if the Nazgul would have been bent to Saruman's will instead. He says in the Fellowship that if he had the Ring they would call him master instead. So if they led Sauron's forces against Isengard they might be turned. which would then shift the balance of power heavily in Saruman's favor. He'd have the Nine, an even larger army, and of course, the Ring, with which I think he would be able to defeat Sauron.
If you did this with better production value it could be a million views like nerd of the rings vid on Gandalf taking the ring
The Ring only has one master and that is Sauron. The ring will always try to return itself to its Master thus at some point it will betray Saruman to ensure its goal.
I actually think saruman would be able to control the nazgul, being the bearer of the one ring to whom the nazgul are bound to serve. Also his incredible powers of manipulation might have to come into play there
I enjoy this series very much
I doubt anyone other than Sauron could wield the full power of the ring. He forged it in the story it says he pours all his hate and malice, almost if you will like a horcrux to Voldermort. Yes, all could receive it's benefits but for whatever reason it didn't affect the hobbits to a huge extent other than making the wearer invisible and just the possession of providing of long life. Yet whenever the ring was put on, Sauron was instantly aware of it because he was not only just tied to him, it was part of him. Just my opinion.
Saruman was not necessarilly affiliated with the main antagonist, Sauron. But I would say he was still pretty straight up evil. 😂
So here's a what if idea: what if Frodo died from his wounds on the way to Rivendell and one of the other hobbits becomes ring bearer? How do the interactions with Golum change? Do they get lost/captured? Does the fellowship not break up?
You make some good points but there are few things that seem incorrect. First, Sauron never thought that anyone would ever want to destroy the ring, it was the whole premise of the books. That was why mount doom was never defended. Second, Sauron knew about Saruman betrayal before Frodo even left the Shire so there is no way he would have ever believed Saruman to give him the ring back. Saruman knew that Sauron found out that is why he desperately wanted to capture the halflings at amon hen. The One Ring was the only thing Dark Lord really wanted and it had priority over everything else if he knew the location he would have sent majority of his forces to retrieve it. Last but not the least it seems like you completely forget how powerful is the ring in capable hands. It enhances the powers of the bearer, which in Saruman's case would make him godlike. He might be able to take over control over orks and weak willed humans using his voice. Nazguls would become his to command.
What about the elves? Would they be attacked too? If not would they help siege sauroman??
I liked the tales of the ages intro
Interesting discussion. I would like to think sauron can never be ultimately successful due to the fate of EA being prewritten by the songs of the spirits before creation. Maybe in this sense nothing which did not come to pass could have come to pass, or otherwise if things could come to pass which did not come to pass regardless this could not lead to an ultimate victory of Sauron.
Rohan wouldn’t necessarily have to attack Isengard. Instead, to quote Gimli “let him stay there, let him rot”. If he attempts to march his army of 10k Uruk-hai out of Isengard, Rohan would have a major advantage even with only 6k Calvary, but I’m guessing much more then 6k by that point. You can use hit and run tactics to gradually thin out their numbers and scatter them, just like the Mongols.
(That’s how the Dothraki should have been used against the army of the dead in Game of Thrones 🙄)
Did you forget Cirdan the Shipwright gave Gandalf the Elven Ring, Narya? I doubt he would fall so easily...
With the one ring I hand, Saurman would be more powerful than a diminished Sauron. He would also control the Nasgùl.
Bottom line: Saruman would fall, Sauron would get his ring back, and the great darkness would hit Middle Earth. Doubtful the Valar would come forth for another War of Wrath as during the First Age.
Would Gondor come to the aid of Rohan? Of course not, not under Denethor. He hinted that Gondor had taken the brunt of the assaults of Mordor with no real assistance from anybody - so why should Gondor help those who did NOT help them?
Saruman had an army, but it paled in comparison to that of Mordor.
The Nazgul would fain control of Saruman, while finding a way to remove the ring from Saruman.
Finally - the ring was made by Sauron. He was it's master, and it would do everything it could to return to HIM. I seriously doubt even Saruman would have time to "master" the ring before the full might of Mordor came down on him.
Wow.
2 years late to the party but isengard is surrounded by a stone wall (a circle wall. The Ents destroyed it with no trouble.
But Orthanc is indestructible. Built by Gondor/Nuemor.....
*Tens of thousands, not 10 000
Hey guys, if the situation with saurman became dire enough, wouldn't elrond feel the need to tell aragorn to go recruit the dead men of dunharrow for the isengard siege?