What Was SARUMAN's Plan If He Defeated Rohan?!? | Middle-Earth Lore
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- Опубликовано: 2 июн 2024
- A big question that comes with Saruman is, if he had not lost at Helm's Deep or at Isengard, then what was his plan? What IF Saruman had won? What IF Saruman had got the One Ring?
Would he have challenged Sauron directly? Submitted to him? Could he have possible come out as the overall victor at the end of all things?
Well, I take a look at some possibilities today! I hope you enjoy it!
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Saruman - EyalDegabl
Saruman - ArtofOkan
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in Memory Of Christopher Lee - muratgul
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Saruman the White - Jamienobes
Middle Earth - Klaradox
Saruman - Cocoz42
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Saruman - JleonardK
Saruman and Grima - firatsolhan
Saruman and Gandalf - (Artist Unknown)
Witch-king of Angmar - Vulpes-Ibuculta
Black Riders - darekzabrocki
Squint-eyed Brute - Jon Foster
Saruman - malara-art
Theodred - WermoongRey
The Lord of the Rings - Boromir - Andy Fairhurst
Uruk-Hai - JHKris
Ents - TolyanMy
Curumo - KTDSI
The One Ring - benjamin-lindquist
Black Orcs, Uruk Hai - Skinny22
Fellowship Promo - Copper Octopus
Saruman the White - DanielGovar
Saruman - gaberoseart
Saruman, The Lord of the Rings - Uidu-Artis
Sauron The Lord of the Rings - William Faucher
Sauron's Army (Lord of the Rings) - mati-figueroa97
Saruman of Many Colours - TolmanCotton
Lord of the Rings - Yanmo Zhang
Sauron - JohnnySlowhand
Saruman the wise - DiegoVila
The last march of the Ents - GrazianoRoccatani
Merry and Pippin - IcanFeelTheEarthTurn
A Tale of Two - Ekaterina Lyubenkova
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The One Ring - mikenashillustration
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Saruman - Vihrushka
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Would you like to see more What Ifs??
Let’s get some yes’s or no’s below to let us know!! 😁
Yes please!
Yes yes yes yes
Yes
Yes, What if: Morgoths Balrogs had bean to late to save him from Ungoliant!!🤔
@@amanda.7125 interesting. Would she gain power from his spirit if she consumed him?
I love “What If” scenarios. I think it’s fun to hypothesize a situation if it went a different way. Good job tackling this topic.
Treacherous though he was, he was still my servant and defeating Rohan would have been of great aid in my war against Gondor.
Stop roleplaying in RUclips comment sections you nerd.
Very insightful Lord
He reminds me of an apprentice I once had.
What about what morgoth would have wanted being that he was your master sauron
@@jackdelamotte8737 Morgoth was overly touchy with Sauron
Love it! My interpretation differs slightly concerning Sauron’s actions if Saruman seized the ring. Sauron’s defining trait is his almost inhuman levels of patience. I don’t think Sauron would be in any hurry- he would wait for his ring to consume and destroy Saruman in good time, before reclaiming it as his own.
These videos are much higher quality than the viewership suggests. I don't know how you people can make a living on this but it's impressive.
Thank you!! I really appreciate that! I do my best :)
@@zStC1 that only heightens my point. They put a lot of effort in those too but receive little to no viewership. What I recall is that they are provided even less from those.
I think, after victories at Helm's Deep and Isengard, he would have aided Gondor and presented himself as Gondor's savior. Denethor would have been easy for him to manipulate, and using the seeing stones he could have even communicated his intention of aid and began pre-emptively planting the seeds of his mental domination.
I never thought of that I like your theory alot
I love the thought of gondor seeing an army on the horizon and then their heart drops when they see its orks but the fighting uruk Hai cut through the lines of mordor
I envision an army of uruks armed with muskets and cannons. That would be kinda fitting if he had time to prepare for an assault on mordor after winning his local wars and securing a powerbase.
Makes sense as Saruman had invented gunpowder. Given enough time, he may well have invented gunpowder weapons. Such early weapons would basically have rendered older artillery, bows and crossbows obsolete. Melee weapons and plate armor made from good enough tempered steel would remain in use for a few more decades, until gunpowder weapons had advanced enough to render most all other medieval era weapons and defenses obsolete, much like what happened in real life.
I like the idea!!
Saruman of Many Colors
(Would love more in depth videos on him and also Denethor II)
By the time Saruman could have discovered about Frodo being the ring bearer and that he had split from the Fellowship quite some time ago, Frodo and Sam would have reached Ithilien. Saruman's aerial spies might have been able to find them but even if they did, how is Saruman going to get people there to capture Frodo in time? Ithilien was full of forces from Mordor as well as the Ithilien Rangers, neither of whom would look kindly on Saruman's people. No, I think it far, far more likely Frodo and Sam end up being captured on their way into Mordor or as they attempt to reach Mount Doom. At that point, Sauron has the One Ring and it's game over.
I'm also very dubious a bunch of Uruk-hai would actually be able to defeat and kill Gandalf plus I don't think you accounted for the presence of the Huorns at Helm's Deep. I think Saruman's Uruk-Hai are in the end defeated there and sooner or later Gandalf and Saruman have their confrontation at Isengard with Gandalf breaking Saruman's staff and power as happened in the book.
This entire "What If" scenario only becomes plausible if Saruman's Uruk-hai capture Frodo, at Amon Hen, in addition to Merry and Pippin. And even then, his Uruk-hai would have to evade the Rohirrim, at the Fringe of Fangorn, where in the book they are brutally slaughtered while resting. This is the only manner in which Isengard could gain possession of the One Ring. But it matters not. Sauron would inevitably come for Saruman (and the Ring), and the Ring would ultimately betray Saruman, because it yearns to get back to Sauron's hand.
@@jacob4920 I agree that was the only time he had a real chance at getting the One. After that the only chance would have been if Saruman himself had gone to try and find Frodo and that wasn't in the cards. But I have read within the past few months that there were a few beings in Middle-Earth that could have mastered the One themselves and it would no longer seek to return to Sauron. How long that might take I have no idea but it does leave open the possibility that Saruman could master the One himself.
These "what if" scenarios are awesome! And incredible way to brainstorm.
I love these. It’s like having a conversation with someone who knows their middle earth history. Kinda rare for me, anyway.
What-if video idea for you to do:
What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
Saruman would barter a political gain to maintain an alliance and benefit with Sauron or he would await the attrition of Mordor's forces in the assault on Gondor, should Mordor prove hostile. The second option was the most likely.
I think there would be some time gap for Saruman to numerically strengthen his army while Sauron was busy with Gondor. Meanwhile, Saruman would continue to spawn more Uruks, more Wargs, and equip the men of brown land to strengthen his military might.
Sauron had more than enough forces in Mordor to march on Isengard and still defeat Gondor. To get the ring back from Saruman, Sauron would have likely gone with that army.
One of my favourite channels on RUclips is Alternate History Hub, which takes real life events and questions what would have happened if things had gone differently, so I enjoy listening to the What If videos for Lord of the Rings too. There's never a 'right' answer, but when you know the cannon (or real life) facts well enough, you can build really intriguing and realistic What Ifs. I always enjoy these videos you make.
Well said!! I was trying to say the same thing. You nailed it.
I watch that too.
Love how cody does his videos
The time finally came I been waiting all day !
I hope you enjoy it 😁
@@TheBrokenSword oh yes I did thankyou!
Saruman of Many Colors
(Yes, more, please)
Well met! Awesome analysis as always. Keep up the great work Mellon! Saruman was misled by his delusions of grandeur.
Yes these are my favorite kinds of videos! Would love more in the future. Thanks for all the thought that went into this one
I enjoyed this video, but I had a thought that requires a jumping off and differing enough that I can not place a time stamp. Essentially this is my own "what if".
I start with the breaking of the Felliwship. Frodo crosses the Anduin and disappears, while Saruman's forces capture Frodo and Pippin. Early on there is a three way conflict in which Sauron's orcs and the Orcs of Moria are destroyed by Saruman's forces. The remaing travel at a higher speed, and Eomer misses them as they bypass Fanghorn completely.
Eomer, Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli are quietly imprisoned and later executed on Grima's order. However, because if these events, Frodo and Sam successfully encounter Gollum who leads them close enough to Mordor to protect them from Saruman.
Grima now quietly finishes off Theoden and Eowyn becomes the Queen. Though she hates Grima, Saruman's friendship is even more critical because of the turmoil so much strife has caused and Eowyn is forced to retain him as an act of "friendship".
Saruman uses his voice to break the resistance of Merry and Pippin and they join his side in the war to come. Saruman gives up trying to gain the Ring, but is now focused on keeping Sauron from attaining it. Gondor sends to Rohan for aid, and with the entire might of both Isengard and Rohan, neither force at all depleted at Helm's Deep, they easily crush the armies of Mordor at Pelenor and the destroy the Corsairs who have launched to reinforce the Witch-king.
In the meantime, the madness of Denethor has been prevented through contact with messengers from Saruman, Faramir is kept safe by Gandalf who has come warning against the aid of Saruman, but Denethor is desperate and refuses all counsel.
At the Battle of the Pelenor Fields, Merry and Pippin save Eowyn and slay the Witch-King, but die from their injuries. A political marriage unites the realms of Gondor and Rohan under one monarchy as Saruman quietly arranges the transition of power and makes Faramir the king of both Arnor and Gondor.
Saruman and Gandalf now lead the effort to destroy Sauron, as Gandalf is left with no choice but to support the wizard he fears is nothing more than a new Dark Lord in the making. The final Battle of the war plays out almost exactly as it does in the original and Sauron is destroyed, and all the other rings of power lose their potency.
Saruman returns to his tower at Orthanc with his remaining forces and grows in power as he makes war with the orcs of Moria and the Misty Mountains, Mt. Gundabad, and Moria, as well as the Elves of Mirkwood and Lothloien, before moving against Dale, Erebor, Rivendell, the Shire, and at last the Grey Havens.
During this time, he quietly ventures into Moria and Mordor and gathers the remaining knowledge to craft his iwn ring of power. Now with all his potential enemies destroyed or neutralized, he dawns his Ring and proceeds to cement his rule of Middle Earth in a manner similar to his accusations against Gandalf in their final confrontation in Two Towers.
"Evil does not share power" Gandalf
"The Ring can not be controlled nor can it be destroyed with any craft or magic" Elrond
It's "Choose Your Own Adventure", featuring Saruman!
Interesting topic.
Although I have to respectfully disagree on some points.
If helms deep had fallen and Isengard was heavily fortified, the ents and Gandalf wouldn’t have attacked with reinforcements. Although the future would indeed look grim for the fellowship.
If Saruman gained the ring I doubt Sauron would have attacked him head on. He would lose if he did.
Sauron was severely weakened by not only losing the ring but also losing his original body by Eru.
The ring would have tipped the balance of power in Sarumans favour, at least in the short term.
Sauron was a lousy fighter. His powers where of control, domination, Manipulation and craft.
He could bend a whole world to his knees but really wasn’t that prolific in war. In particular duels.
Much more likely Sauron would hide and wait for the ring to slowly eat away at Saruman.
It was made of Saurons soul and had allegiance only to him. Give enough time and it would slowly but surely sabotage even a very powerful Maia like Saruman.
As for Saruman hiding the ring from Sauron it wasn’t really possible unless he just didn’t use it. In which case he would lose the initiative.
I’d love to hear your guys thoughts!
These are good points - both Gandalf and Galadriel admit that the ring would, eventually, corrupt them and (In Gandalf's case) push them into Sauron's service. Perhaps Saruman would know that, and swiftly strike at Sauron in order to defeat Sauron before the ring could wear him down.
I agree. If one of the great, like Saruman, possesses the ring of power, they will become a match for Sauron. He put so much of his own native power into the ring that it "levels up" anyone with the will power to wield and control it. That's why Sauron is terrified when he thinks that Aragorn has the ring. It levels the playing field, even if the outcome is not guaranteed. And surely Saruman, of the house of Aule the smith, wise in ring lore, having crafted hid own ring of power already, would learn how to use the one ring as well as Gandalf or one of the elven lords, if not better?
"He really did not come close to completing his given task"
This isn't 100% accurate. He didn't remain true to his mission, but Gandalf implies that his treason and opposition to Mordor were an impediment to Sauron. The actions of the Uruk-hai inadvertently interfered with Sauron's orcs' attempts to capture it, and the victory at Helm's Deep galvanized Rohan and positioned them to arrive at Minas Tirith at the right time. If Saruman had been honest early on and shared what he learned of the fate of the Ring, things might have gone better earlier on, but his actions did indirectly contribute to the fall of Sauron. Maybe, like Melkor's attempts to disrupt the Ainulindalë, Saruman was in some way unable to disrupt the ultimate will of Eru, regardless of his specific actions and choices.
His task was to aid the Free Peoples. That he did so inadvertently because of his own evil designs is hardly what he was tasked to do. Had he held true to the task he was given, he would have eagerly helped figure out how best to destroy the ring once Gandalf figured out what it was. Indeed, that the ring was the One might have been figured out many years earlier when Sauron wasn't as strong.
@@istari0 no saruman had it right because he betrayed the valinor who have been ignoring the evils of middle earth both with sauron and melkor and taking away chances from sauron as well
I disagree. His war on Rohan actually DELAYED the Rohirim from answering Gondor's call, and also weakened them. King Theodin knew what was going on and knew the call to arms was coming from Gondor soon, and would have still mustered the Rohirim once his scouts or diplomats in Minas Tirith reported the time had come. The difference is the Rohirim would not have been drawn off to the West, AWAY from the main threat of Mordor, and would not have been too busy fighting an existential threat of their own to be preparing to defend Gondor as effectively as they'd have liked. They also would not have lost the heir to their throne, would not have lost so many soldiers to the war with Isengard, and would have thus had better leadership and greater numbers to muster. King Theordin would also not have been distracted by a treacherous Grimmer - who may have remained loyal to Rohan in the absence of Saruman's temptations. I don't think Sauron would have known enough about local Rohirim politics to have known he could make an asset of Grimmer like Saruman did.
Also, if Saruman had remained loyal to the West, he'd have also been able and willing to send the forces of Isengard to the aide of Gondor, so not only would the Rohirim be able to arrive in greater strength, but would likely have been part of a joint force of Rohan AND Isengard. Isengard may also have been able to send a secondary force to assist the elves of Lothlorien against Dul Goldor and Moria. This could have led to a faster defeat of those 2 strongholds of Mordor, freeing up his and Lothorien's armies to either move north to aide Erabor and Dale, or move east to join forces with Gondor, Isengard, the Gray Company and Rohan at The Black Gates. This would also have freed up the Woodland Realm Elves to aide their allies in Erabor and Dale against the northern invasion force much sooner, possibly forcing the sieging Easterlin army to retrat and lift the siege of Erabor, freeing up Dale and Erabor to join them and press the retreating Mordor army further east,
So no, Saruman's trechery weakened and slowed the response of the West to the point it almost cost them the War of the Ring. A loyal Saron would also have meant the Gap of Rohan would have been open to the Fellowship, which would have hastened their passage east, and they would likely have arrived on the borders of Mordor with the Ringbearer sooner then in the cannon timeline.
However, this would also likely mean Durin's Bane would NOT be slain by Gandulf, Gandolf would not be returned stronger as Gandulf the Whine, but that last part would not be needed as Saruman the White is true to his allies so he's still filling the role of White Wizard. Also, Radigast would likely not be distracted on some fool's errands but made aware his help will be needed, and he may well have been up north, aiding the Elves of Mirkwood or the dwarves and men of Erabor and Dale. The Fellowship would also likely not have met Galadriel in Lothlorien so would not have her gifts. Though a loyal Saruman may councel them to detour there, advising it would be crucial to their quest to seek her council, so that meeting may still have happened anyways.
The Balfog still being alive may have meant he would have attacked Lothlorien directly though, but that may have drawn Saruman from Isengard to face the Balrog himself, making Saruman the hero who slays Durin's Bane.
Still, I think in this alternate timeline, things overall do go smoother for the Men of the West.
There's no battle required; Saruman would gradually succumb to the Ring's influence, and in so doing Sauron would still rule through him. He could have immediate mastery over it and a million Uruk-Hai at his command and Sauron would still win simply because the Ring survives.
Such a good channel 👍🏻👍🏻
Thank you!!
Been watching the what if scenarios from the get go, keep up the good work 👍🏻
What if videos are the best! Keep them up, man. Cheers from Brazil
This is really cool. One thing I miss though, is the free flowing conversations you guys had in the old channel. Like about what if Boromir had lived
Saruman of Many Colors - the “what if” videos are a lot of fun.
Thanks mate. I enjoy your what if videos
saruman of many colours awesome vid James as always looking forward to the next one
Nice work dude
I enjoyed your approach and imagination towards the characters. Very Cool 😎
I think it would ultimately come down to how the ring interacts with Saruman's voice, his greatest power. It could amplify it to the point that truly none could contend with the will of Saruman, perhaps even the ring itself would be persuaded. Very interesting indeed, love Saruman and his fighting Uruk Hai
4:36 That uruk-Hai dual wielding swords is an absolute Chad!
Thank you for posting the video. I've always wondered about the "what if."
What if videos are great! Keep up the great work! 👍
Thank you!
Excellent video
Cheers
One of the most interesting topics of the lore. Loved the video
One note, if Saruman got the One Ring, there's a secondary problem for Sauron-the Ringwraiths would no longer be subject to him, but to Saruman along with many of the forces created through the Ring's power. Tolkien had stated that Gandalf could have mastered the Ring, though he was vague on the time it would take to do so, so it's not out of the realm of possibility that Saruman could have done so too.
"If I had this thing you would know, for you would bow down and call me Master."-Saruman to the WitchKing
He was supposed to master the Ring and even so.. the Ringwraiths would be no danger for the forces of Mordor or the Elves / Alliance (Glorfindel alone would scary them). Saruman's army is less in number. He would be overcome
As I said in a post:
Sauron can be defeated the way that Morgoth was defeated.
Saruman could only 1) destroy the ring, or 2) to bring Sauron to Aman to be judged.
But since Saruman became evil, he couldn't go for any of these 2 options = He can never win! Sauron would come back in thousands of years with another plan as well. Sauron's soul would be always in Arda, waiting for right moment
Gandalf was also stated explicitly to have the power to destroy Saurons soul in a 1vs1 no doubt Saruman had the same abilities. Sauron during the hobbit was defeated do to Saruman and his machinations Gandalf is clear on this. Saruman with the ring would no doubt have similar success.
@@TheDixieBassMan
THE ONLY SOLUTION IS WRITTEN EXACTLY ON THE BOOK. Explanation:
1) Istari and Glorfindel were not allowed to use their full power
2) 1 vs 1 was impossible, because of first point mentioned. And the aggressor has to kill all Mordor's army alone before meet Sauron.
3) Sauron, as Melkor, was not inclined to fight, because his eventual defeat means that his spirit could fly back to Mandos, to be judged and this was not even an option.
4) the ring has his own power. It is a device and it will always put an influence (big or small) on who wears it, changing the original nature of the individual
@@tonyusa5509 Tolkien's letters are canon and he said clearly that Sauron could be vanquished by Gandalf.
Good video mate
I love you Alt history vids. Keep ‘em coming if you can! Ever done anything over The Wheel of Time? My favorite fantasy story ever!
Keep the what ifs coming!
More what ifs for sure!!
Saruman of Many Colors
Loved this. What do you think would happen if Gandalf DIDNT come back after he fell with the Balrog?
Saurman of Many Colors
Could Saruman have defeated Galdalf the White? Given that the reborn Gandalf became the What probably by Valar or Eru's intervention?
one on One, No as we saw when Gandalf came to Isenguard post Helms deep and broke Saruman's spell over of words over his company and then the staff of Saruman.
@@Historyfan476AD If it was Iluvitar who arranged for Gandalf's return, I think the fix was in. Gods of that kind of power do not mess around. they make sure. like having Gollum conveniently placed where he could use Frodo's finger for a Coney Island hot dog and then, while he was doing the Happy Hop, go over the edge. I can just hear the poor bastard "I worked and slaved for 3 volumes of over 240 pages each and then THIS crap happens: bonuvaSITCH!!!" and Sam says'"What an ingrate Master Frodo: He didn't say 'AAAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!'. Poor show, Gollum". Frodo turns to Sam and says "Just shut your mouth: I was supposed ot be the Hero in all of this" and pushes Sam over the edge and says "That fixes THAT, now, theyll have to believe my story about how Sam died bravely, giving me a chance to push Gollum off the edge and throw the Preci...erm...Ring in after them" and puts a gold shiny objet in his pocket "Eat your heart out Sauron cuz I'm comin' for YOU. And while we're at it; Galadriel, Do you REALLY want to spend your life with a broken down old elf when you can have the ruler of the upcoming 4th Age universe?". Don't miss out next thrall-packed episode "Shire-ly You're Joking or Old Hobbits Die Hard" and DON'T CALL ME "SHIRE-LY"
@@SpacePatrollerLaser Yes Iluvitar set up Gandalf to return and allowed him greater power to overthrow Saruman and contest Sauron more directly.
Your other part though well I am lost on it. If you mean He set up the final moments of Gollum then Yes as well.
@@Historyfan476AD That is what I meant. The rest was an amalgam of the video that showed that Sam was the real hero and the April 1 video about the Eagle taking the Ring for himself and as manycheap jokes as I could get, which, to quote Tolkien "The tale grew in the telling"
@@SpacePatrollerLaser Oh now it is clear, I love them April 1st videos.
Great Video - 'what if' are cool Videos👍
This video was great! It’s a fun way to explore some real lore, too. I think that by the time of these very cool “what if” events, the ring has already established that its purpose is to reunite with Sauron. It kind of suggests that only Sauron can wield its true power. I agree though that Sauron would win a magic battle. It’s the only battle that he could win; he’s 0-2 in physical combat Hahaha!
Love this one!
Great what if analysis. ❤ One situation you haven’t covered in scenario 1 is what Frodo do with the Ring. Does he get to destroy it? And if yes Sauron would perish leaving Saruman against the combined strength of the remaining Elves, Men and Dwarfs..
All of the dc and marvel multiverse is based on what if scenarios. I think you do a great job w these.
Any chance of a "what if saruman helped the fellowship " never seen one.
Love your channel keep up the good work.
Wouldn't it be possible that if Saruman gets the One Ring and wears it, he'd just end up being corrupted by Sauron and becoming his puppet without realizing it? The influence of the ring is powerful and even though Saruman is too, he could end up manipulated into just doing all the things that Sauron wants for reasons he rationalizes to himself until eventually his will and Sauron's are indistinguishable?
This probably would be the most likely outcome. By the time of the war of the Ring, Saruman was already remotely controlled through the Palantir. Now add the One.
Nice! Always like when the videos take up more time!! Thanks for another awesome video!
Thank you! I love making longer ones, i find I get lost in them more :)
I’d love to see a full Saruman of many colors video. Get on that! ❤️❤️❤️
I like these 'what if' videos so keep it up 😅 also, if it is from an event that's only mentioned in the books or Silmarillion.
And ofcourse 😜
Saruman of Many Colours
Saruman the many coloured. Saruman is one if my favourite characters and if love to see a full video on his life.
Saruman of many colors that would be great video
I think Saruman's best outcome was that Merry and Pippin never made it to Fangorn, then there would be no rising of the Ents, and no attack on Isengard. Victory at Helms Deep was always more likely than the actual outcome. From then on, with Rohan defeated, he could concentrate on building up his forces, and wait. By doing nothing, the ring would be destroyed, Sauron would fall, but Saruman would remain with a powerful army, ready to pick up the leadership of the remnants of the forces of Mordor. Gondor without Rohan, or the army of the dead would have been destroyed on the field. Victory would have been handed to Saruman by Frodo and Sam, though they wouldn't know it as they would have perished at Mt Doom.
Maybe not.
With Gondor destroyed, there would be no army marching to the Black Gate, hence the road to Orodruin would likely be filled with Orcs, for they would have no "bite" to fight against at the northern border ; and eventually chances for Frodo and Sam to pass unseen would shrink close to zero, making it highly more likely they are captures, searched and killed and whatever is found on them is sent ti Barad-Dur (as was the mithril mail taken to Frodo in Cirith Ungol...)
For Saruman to succed, he would need to follow the same strategy as Aragorn and Gandalf: confront Sauron at the Black Gate or wherever far from Mount Doom to sway his attention and have the One destroyed. He'd be less powerful, but with no evil power strong enough to beat him he'd rule Middle Earth nonetheless.
But to do so, he'd need to know where the One is heading and for what purpose, hence he needs at least Merry and Pippin to reach Isengard...
This means Saruman being smart for a while - and his actions for the last couple of days were more "panic mode" then being smart.
Saruman of many colours
I think Gandalf rightfully said that Saruman only had a chance against Sauron if he found the One Ring.
I don't think Saruman had any actual chance of getting the One Ring due to the timeline of events though. He'd be fully pre occupied with the battle for Helms Deep for quite some time. By the time he'd be done, Frodo and Sam were already either in Ithilien or even much further (around Minas Morgul or Cirith Ungol). Even if Frodo was stuck in Emyn Muil or the Dead Marches, I don't see how Saruman could have first send hordes of crows and then forces to retrieve the ring on the east bank of the Anduin. Sauron would have multiple armies in the field as well; 1 occupying Minas Tirith and 1 crossing Cair Andros into Anorien. The all seeing eye would have seen it at least.
I think there is a technical alternative if Saruman would get his hands on the One Ring. I think he'd offer himself as the only alternative to Sauron to the remaining people in Middle Earth. Considering how bad Sauron would be and the fact that Saruman had a history with the remaining free peoples, it's not impossible I think. Also consider he'd have power over the bearers of the Three and that the One Ring would boost his existing powers, of which his speech was apparantly the most powerful one. With the One Ring, his speech etc. I think most of the remaining free peoples would reluctantly side with Saruman. How the battle would go afterwards would be a mystery.
Second! Also, cracking topic for a Bank holiday Monday :)
Cool video. One thing to consider in the scenario that Saruman and Sauron fight and neither have the one ring is Saruman would probably recover the ring of fire from Gandalf’s body. Couldn’t hurt!
Beautifully done and sauruman of many colors please?
I do want to see a full story! Saurman of Many Colors! Did you decide with moving forward with that project? Also, I would like for you to do a video on Melkor and explore his possibilities.
We have a 40 minute video about Melkor that you can check out 😊
What if Saruman had somehow managed to convince the Ents and Huorns to be on his side? that at least was what I’ve always thought that was one of his biggest mistake
thank you xx
Saruman of many colors. Also I really enjoy this "what if" storyline.
Finding and mastering the One Ring was Saruman's only hope of ultimate victory
I know it's incredibly late to post on an 8 month old video, but one aspect that really frustrated me was the idea that saruman didn't stand a chance against sauron with the ring, when you read return of the King you find Sauron himself scared that Aragorn a guy with no particular magical abilities could potentially take and given time defeat sauron with it. We also see both gandalf and Galadriel worried not about their ability to defeat sauron if they have the additional power of the ring they seem to feel that's a guarantee, but that it would corrupt them and just make them his replacement, and as a note for gandalf this while he is still the grey wizard probably weaker and definitely captured by saruman. Last rant point please no one read this, sauron with the ring was originally defeated by armies and if I remember properly 6 people fighting in particular, Ellendil his two sons, and Gilgalad with Elrond and Cirdan, seems to me saruman with the ring even without time to master it stands a good chance of winning a 1v1 at this point, I mean sauron was defeated and beat up by a dog (a very unique dog true) of all things before he lost a lot of his power by crafting it into a ring then losing it, so... Why not Saruman with some of saurons own power to use against him?
Make a full length video for Saruman of Many Colors!
Something that might have tipped the scales in Saruman's favor is if he took the Elven Rings. Having defeated Gandalf that is pretty much a given, he would have taken that one. If he could best Elrond or Galadriel he could have taken their's too. An attack on the Elves of some measure would be necessary, however if he could ambush them with servants won over by the compulsion of his voice (as to not cast an orcish shadow that even the lowest born Elves could see) then he could attempt to quietly assinate them in the quite of night. The Elves would be a big problem but if he bested them he would stand the best chance against Sauron. The last allinace greatly benefitted from having the Elven rings, if Saruman had the forethought to win a horde trolls over to his side for the inevitable siege of the tower, it would help, as well as corrupting some of the tree ents. Also we must consider too that if orcs were once Elves but were corrupted by great wizardry Sauruman could potentially create his own orcs. In addition if he pulled all his strength from the vastness of middle earth such as his numbers from the shire he could stand a better chance in the battle overall. We must consider also, Sauron could not appear in his corporal form, he would have no physical form in the siege of the tower. If the tower was fortified and the forces were great outside it, Saruman could stand a chance, if he manages to defend the tower he would have the advantage again in taking Mordor for himself. Amassing a larger army would rather counterintuitively be easier if he could best the elves as he did the men in this scenario, whilst still looking like or posing as Sauron's ally, if he does this before hastily grabbing the ring from Frodo it would benifit him greatly. Let me know if I am wrong and why?
Saruman of many colours.
Saruman of many colours
There is actually another option saruman could go with, and it's related to the theory of hiding the presence of the one ring from sauron, saruman could study the one ring and rather than mastering it, he could craft an exact copy of it, only this ring would be a version of the one ring that he poured his own power cruelty hatred malice and manipulative cunning into much in the same way sauron did when he forged the one ring himself, now in this scenario, saruman would still keep the one ring hidden for a time until he used his own ring to build his power in the land to it's full extent, then once that happened he'd either secret the one ring to a hidden location only he knew of, or he'd let sauron have it back knowing he could now challenge him.
Saruman Of Many Colors,
I'd love to see this video!!!
Another couple of possibilities are that A) Sauron would move north to attack Lorien and Saruman after the fall of Gondor and the war still provides enough of a distraction for Frodo and Sam to destroy the ring. Depending how quickly it lasted, Saruman and the Elves of Lorien would be killed, or fight eachother after the destruction of Sauron.
Possibility B) Saruman relocates North to the Shire, knowing that he will face the wrath of Sauron, and aims to establish a greater powerbase further away, with more time to fortify. Frodo still destroys the ring as Sauron attacks Lorien, but returns to find Saruman has established a northern kingdom and enslaved the shire. Saruman then fights for control of the remnants of middle earth with the remaining peoples, probably securing a large area and dominion over most of the kingdoms of men.
The Valar should have watched what Aule was doing with the Maiar associated with him, because both Sauron and Saruman were his assistants XD
I would love to see what if tree beard killed saruman, found the one ring, and found the entwives. I'd even just be fine with what if treebeard did not lose the entwives.
Saruman of many colors!!💯
Saruman of Many Colors. Please make a video about him
These types of videos are a lot of fun. Saruman of many colors, I think Gandalf would not have fallen in battle not only with his new powers as the white he also possesses an elvish ring of power. Even if those factors did not save him, he would have been sent back yet again possibly with even more power to take Saruman out.
Saruman of Many Colours.
Up
Saruman of Many Colors, please.
Saruman of many colors!!!
I think Saruman would have been clever enough to recover his position of trust with Sauron, convincing the Dark Lord that his spies were lying or provided the Nazgul with incorrect information. Saruman seizes upon the notion of using the Elven Rings to preserve his kingdom. So first he finds Gandalf's Elven Ring and then and attacks Rivendell in an attempt to gain each of the Elven Rings while he seeks the One Ring.
I guess the only thing you might have missed that havent really been mentioned in comments is that Eru might then have said. "Sorry Manwe my lad, but you have to go spank them again come hells and high water and just try to save as many as you can."
"Rock fall. Everyone die."
I bet it would have been a Plankton moment. Not thinking he would get that far.
Saruman of Many Colors
The one thing that seems really off to me is Gandalf's attack at Helm's Deep. If the forces of Rohan were already defeated and the orcs took the fortress, Gandalf and the Rohirrim wouldn't attack it. Cavalry is strong on an open battlefield, but it phisically can't assault a fort. It just can't. For that you need infantry, ladders, rams and other siege equipment. No capable commander would even think of assaulting a frotress with cavalry. And both Gandalf and Eomer were more than capable commanders. It wouldn't be so simple for Saruman to kill Gandalf. I think they would retreat to Edoras or to Gondor, or do literally anything else but attack Helm's Deep.
Saruman of many colors :)
Groovy
Saruman of Many Colors yes plz
Saruman of Many Colors.
If you haven't done it yet can you do a what if gallum survived?
Another factor could be if the Elves picked a side. They would probably just let the two beat the snot out of each other, however.
I think a better pivot point could have been “what if Gandalf wasn’t rescued from Orthanc?”
I think there would still be some issues for Saruman even if Pippin did tell Saruman about the One Ring, as he is not smart enough to keep his mouth shut! There was still Eowyn who the Riders of Rohan would follow into battle, and even if the crows saw Frodo, Sam and Gollum he still needed to get to them and Sauron would get suspicious if Saruman's army started marching towards Gondor or Mordor without his orders and would send out his forces and crush Saruman's forces and then either find the One Ring or find out that it was heading to Mordor to be destroyed and would send his forces to guard Mount Doom and catch Frodo and Sam and regain the One Ring. Then Sauron would come to Isengard and crush Saruman for his betrayal.
If Saruman's army set off on 3 March they would be well on their way by the 5 and Sauron would have his forces on the march and Frodo, Sam and Gollum migh have managed to get into Mordor as they would wait until Sauron's army left Mordor and then enter Mordor and make their way to Mount Doom and Gollum would attack but be be held at bay and Frodo and Sam would be able to cross Mordor and reach Mount Doom and the ring would be destroyed!
However if this had happened, with the other heros dead, Saruman might have become Lord of Middle-Earth!
Only a quick response from all the remaining Free People would have been able to stop him and only a powerful elf would stand a chance against Saruman to kill him, and if he was not killed right then and there, he would retreat, make more troops and attack again or wait a while so the Elves weakened and left Middle-Earth and then he would take control of the men of the East and South and attack and become Lord of Middle-Earth then!
This shows how close things were for Middle-Earth! And it might have happened if Saruman had just left the Shire or left it alone!
Unwind your what-if a bit... how would a situation arise where Saruman could win?
If the Uruk-hai had missed the Company at Parth Galen, then: Boromir still lives, Merry & Pippin never show up to rouse the Ents, the Three Hunters never speed their way across Rohan & encounter Eomer... Not sure where Gandalf shows up.
Theoden doesn't awake. Helm's Deep taken handily. Erkenbrand stranded behind enemy lines. How does the Grey Company make it thru? Can Aragorn make it to the Paths of the Dead? Without the muster of Rohan, what likely shows up at dawn on the Pelennor Fields is Saruman's army. Minas Tirith falls & the Witch King doesn't (unless by Saruman's hand).
However, there's a distinct possibility that Sauron interprets Saruman's march as a sign Saruman has the One Ring. This serves the same function as the March of the King... distracting Sauron & keeping the Nazgul occupied (perhaps Saruman breaks thru & takes Minas Tirith anticipating Sauron's reinforcements) while Frodo & Sam & Gollum reach Mount Doom. Ring still destroyed, but at a far greater cost.
Interesting loose-ends in this scenario...
(This also leaves room for the Valar influencing things to cause the Uruk-hai to find the Company...)
I’ve always wondered if Saruman had survived the scouring of the shire could he have ever been a threat to the west again. He’s still an immortal Demi god who isn’t going to die unless he’s killed. He spent a lot of time in the East and given Morgoth and Sauron’s hold and influence over those regions he could amass a decent following especially if he claimed to be the Sauron’s successor.
Personally, I don't think so otherwise he would have remained powerful enough that Gandalf would have never let the Hobbits contend with him alone. I believe Gandalf destroyed most of his power at the confrontation at Isengard.
I really hope someone sees this! Please haha im just so curious! When Gandalf and the Fellowship are heading towards Moria and the Carahdras pass, where exactly did Sauron and Sarumon think they were headed? If they didn't think they would try to destroy the ring, why wouldn't Sauron just send an army to take it from 9 walkers? Anyone's info would be lovely!! Thank you