Tom wins the battle, and not with some traditional use of force, he simply brings life with him to the battle. Sauron grabs Tom and in victory pulls him close, Top puts an acorn inside sauron's helmet, Tom makes the acorn grow inside sauron's armor, and in a moment sauron is trapped forever inside a tree. fight over. no great show of violence, just life eternal winning against the upstart.
Tom would just be dancing and singing with Sauron unable to catch him. Sauron, exhausted, falls to his knees. Goldberry sneaks up behind him and knifes him. Tom had no idea he was even in a fight
I can’t picture Golberry knifing anybody. How about this: Tom leads Sauron to the banks of the Withywindle, where a sudden drowsiness descends upon the dark lord’s mind. Then, much like Melkor under Luthein’s spell, he topples to the ground with a crash. A gap opens in the ancient, gnarled willow nearby, and the roots draw him in. The gap shuts with a snap, and Bombadil skips away merrily to pick some water-lilies.
I think Tom is old enough to have seen the rise and fall of both Melkor and Sauron once already. If born of the Music of Creation he is aware of the Eru's final act and it's outcome and therefore has little concern over the tribulations of those who must play their roles in the game of Fate.
If it wasn't for Tom, The fellowship would never have happened, The journey would have ended before it began. Tom saved the 4 hobbits and also equipped them with the weapons they would need. That to me indicates he was aware of his part and did what was required to achieve the end result. Tom exists out of time and can see what the future holds.
Certainly Bombadils choice of weapons given to Merry and Pippin seems to have played an exact part to first cripple and lead to the destruction of the Witch King at the battle of Pelenor fields. So I am leaning your way to agree.
A fight between Sauron and Tom seems like an echo of Morgoth vs. Ungoliant, the dark twin of Tom thematically, a being without explanation or defined status. While her fate is often assumed to be an unending consumption ending in herself, Tom is consumed by nothing. I think Sauron would attempt to fight him but find that all efforts were in vain. He would never be able to force a final conflict, and the land Tom chose to hold would forever remain a pocket of purity and reminder to Sauron of his limits. Like Varda placing the Sickle above Utumno to always remind Melkor she and the Valar were there opposing him.
Tom is obviously older than Sauron and likely of a higher order of creation than the Maia and i totally disagree with the videos conclusion...i don't think any fight would happen between them because even with the ring Sauron would have no power over him of course Tom wouldn't fight because that's his nature but i also believe that ultimately Sauron would lose because he cant beat Tom and because of HIS(Sauron)nature he must beat him...
@@wildfire160 Older as in having the oldest physical existence of any creature, yes. But the Ainur (including Sauron) existed as spirits prior to the creation of Arda and physical reality as a whole. Sauron didn’t get his physical manifestation until after he helped the heavenly host bring the very concept of ‘being’ into being, but that’s just the point. Tom might be the soul of Arda and might be comparable or even greater in strength to Manwe himself, but he is surely a product of the great music like the Elves and Ents and as such can’t be older than a member of the Ainur. In terms of orders of creation, that’s definitely up for debate. The comparison with Ungoliant is one I’ve liked. It’s known that Melkor’s discord manifested many dark creatures in the Void, so perhaps those loyal to Eru’s original music were responsible for weaving Tom into creation by how fiercely they sang in reprisal.
"Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.’ ‘I know little of Iarwain save the name,’ said Galdor; ‘but Glorfindel, I think, is right. Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself. And yet we see that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills."
The key question then is if that power is within the earth itself. I'd generally say not to a degree that could stop Sauron. However, I do consider the head from a beheaded statue of a king of old that is crowned by flowers as it lay on the ground being noted by Sam as an act of defiance against Sauron to be important when thinking about Tom. I think there are things that exist that may have been able to resist Sauron even if he recovered the one ring. These things might be on the edge of Sauron's empire, but his empire probably would not be 100% total even had won the War of the Ring (or a 100% victory would have taken a very long time to achieve).
Don't forget this is spoken from the point of view of elves. Who may not understand much of the true might of the Maia and Vala. Certainly not of an eccentric being as Tom. This is probably a literary excuse for keeping Tom out of the story more than an accurate commentary on his capability.
Yeah except that quote offers nothing but to highlight the speculative shortsightedness of the elves when it comes to pondering all things that are above them. If the elves are staking their chips on the side of Sauron, then most likely it would be Tom taking the W.
I don't think it would be possible to eliminate all good on Middle-earth anymore than it would to eliminate all bad. The worst it would get would be a tiny patch of land that Tom Bombadil would somehow maintain as a golden fiefdom. Sauron vetching and grinding his teeth over the fact that he cannot dominate completely everything.
The real question of the elves discussing Bombadil's power is do they really know what he's capable of, or are they merely speculating? I think the most telling part is that he really wouldn't care enough about it to do anything.
Interesting. I’d never thought of that but it makes sense. We assume that a Maia such as Gandalf or immortals such as Elrond know more about Tom than we do, but perhaps not enough. Perhaps Tom’s abilities are to Gandalf what Gandalf’s are to Frodo making TB’s abilities being out of the council’s realm of consciousness.
Not until he, himself, is directly affected. Then it would be a titanic battle. But who would win? Between Tom with zero assistance and Sauron with all his allies and vassals? In the end, even Tom cannot be in all places at once. He can only preserve that which is within his presence.
Tom is the spirit of nature, the Green Man, or as he is often called in the English Midlands 'The Lad in the Lane'. He simply negates the industrial might of Sauron. Nature will prevail .... beyond the Age on Man. He was there at The Big Bang of Tolkien's cosmology.
Ungoliant's power grew enormously after she consumed the light of the Two Trees as well as the vats of liquid light that existed around the base of the Trees. It wasn't until after that point that Morgoth began to be afraid of her.
Another thing to add is Melkor was HEAVILY weakend having spread most of his power across the vast lands and array of entitiys so he wasn't even half strength.
8:3616:00 I think the best theory of what Tom is, is that he represents the song Eru sung itself. He represents the nature of things, and he doesnt understand the battle between light and dark... Yet his power is arguably greater than the istary, and the ring doesn't have an effect on him (like it would say on Gandalf, who was petrified of even touching it). He was there in the beginning before anyone else, he is fatherless and also i think Tolkien said Eru doesn't have a physical incarnation. He is the song itself. It's why he would be simultaneously the best and worst person to be the ring bearer... He could easily throw it into mount doom and never become corrupt by the ring, yet it would be impossible to get him to the mountain because he simply doesn't care or can't comprehend the situation.
Tom made a little magical barrier around his land and hid from Sauron, waiting for better days. So, if he could win or even fight, why make a tiny little haven and hide... "“Say rather that the Ring has no power over him. He is his own master. But he cannot alter the Ring itself, nor break its power over others. And now he is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set, though none can see them, waiting perhaps for a change of days, and he will not step beyond them.”
"Could that power be defied by Bombadil alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.’ ‘I know little of Iarwain save the name,’ said Galdor; ‘but Glorfindel, I think, is right. Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself. And yet we see that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills" - The council of Elrond
i dont think he was hiding at all. he just didn't care. sauron was irrelevant to him. he probably thought he can kick saurons butt any time if he wanted to. but he was just lazy and didn't care , i guess
He was apparently around before anything else, so I was thinking he's a sliver of Eru (not Eru himself, in full), left there as a way for Eru to observe/be part of his creation. As such he may not be that much of an offensive power, but he's probably impossible to attack.
The author has said that there is not a personification of Eru that we meet... But in my own head canon I see Tom as an avatar or projection or something of Eru. It just feels right 😁
I think Tom is the personification of Arda itself - specifically, he is Arda uncorrupted by Melkor. So while he is not Eru himself, he is the embodiment of Eru's vision for Creation. As such, he must reflect Eru's will to some extent.
Tom is an aspect of creation itself. And with that in mind has a direct correlation and link to Eru Ilúvatar and has all the same powers and gifts associated with him. So it wouldn't even be a battle. Tom would just imagine Sauron out of existence. His powers are so far beyond Sauron and even Morgoth that it can't even be fathomed!
Best answer so far! The final sentence of your comment is the most pertinent, and a concept that most folks forget. Frightened as Morgoth was of Ungoliant, he would be ten thousand times more frightened of Tom Bombadil, since Tom could actually compass Morgoth's vanishing into nothingness, as easily as flowing water vanquishes a flame.
Apologies, but where does this information come from? There is no text that I can find that describes Tom ever being related to Eru Ilúvatar. I am certain he does NOT have the powers of Eru. Melkor is through and through, by word of text by Tolkien himself, the most powerful being aside from Eru, in his works. Tom would be a miniscule thing to the Ainur in their true beings and state. Eru is the only entity that can unmake the Ainur, Tom does not have this power.
Well said, or to put it another way, Sauron wouldn't even think about confronting him directly. Tom is as close to a personification of a god as we get.
How would such a fight occur? I’d take a page from the Silmarillion where Sauron battles Finrod in songs of power. It would not be a physical fight but of words; a Tolkien rap battle, as it were. It would surely be epic.
I’m thinking there could be a stand alone movie of the hobbits entering the old forest up to Tom escorting them to the boundary of his land. On another note, one of those images of Tom certainly had Jack Black’s eye sparkle and grin
Tom would have beaten Sauron, Sarumon, Melkor, Darth Vader, The Balrog, and Smaug in one fight. You just can't stop his singing. Especially, if he sings "Indian Love Call" (the Slim Whitman song). Remember, that song killed the Martians in Mars Attacks.
My personal HC is that Tom and Goldberry are literal guests in Arda, drawn to its beauty from Outside, like Ungoliant was drawn in by her endless hunger; but they fit in much better. Maybe Eru himself taught them to.
My theory about Tom Bombadil is that he is one of the "nameless creatures" but a positive version. The nameless creatures originated in the discord in the music by Melkor, which led to many unintended creatures to take form before the Ainur even reached Arda. Most of these were evil or grotesque, since they were accidents of the discord. But Tom is probably the one "happy little accident", where the discord actually created a being who is good and yet immensely powerful. This adds up with Tom's claim that he was in Arda even before Sauron or the Valar.
My head cannon is that Tom Bombadil is a "systemic anomaly" in the Music of the Ainur, a la Neo in The Matrix: In the Ainulindale, when Eru Illuvatar gave the Ainur a vision of what their music might create, they took great joy in it and wished it _to be._ Bombadil is the manifestation of that joy and that wish, a harmonic overtone created unintentionally and _before_ the Ainur descended into Arda from the Timeless Halls and the Children of Eru were awakened. Because he is not a "sung" part of the Music, the One Ring has no power over him, and because he was a byproduct of the Ainur's joy in creating, he spreads that joy and emboldens their creation.
I think the issue wasn't that Tom Bombadil wasn't strong enough to challenge Sauron, but that he was not interested in leaving his self-imposed boundaries. Tom was the master of his own lands. The council believed that he would be conquered last. To me this implied Tom was stronger. He was dismissed as a possible guardian of the ring due to a perceived irresponsible nature.
I always interpreted Tom as being an embodiment of the goodness of life and nature, and also of the hope for a better future. Thus, Tom's powers are best expressed through the actions and choices of others rather than his own, since the goodness and hope of others is the essence of what he is. This could be why he loves collecting and telling heroic stories. This is also why he cannot be corrupted by the ring directly. He will not fall until all creation has been conquered and the hope for a better future wiped out, cutting him off from his source of power. As to who would win, I think Tom did in a sense. Sauron was brought down by Frodo and the Fellowship's courage and perseverance in the face of evil, which is what Tom is all about. Sauron is destroyed and the heroes become another story of good triumphing over evil, breathing life and power into Tom.
In the Silmarillion it states that there were many entities that entered the world who were not Maia, Ainar etc. For instance Ungoliant. My opinion has always been that these entities indeed were of the same race as the Ainar but all were of different power levels. Ungoliant supposedly defeated Morgoth until he called for help etc. so Bombadil and even Goldberry were of that angelic (or demonic) race of spirits. One way to tell is almost all cases the Angelic or good side were usually married and those that were not mentioned as being married could have been anyway.
I think it's possible that Tom could very well be a literary representation of Tolkien himself. Maybe not an exact representation of who Tolkien was but a projection of what Tolkien wished to be.
I would disagree. Tolkein was obsessed with pipe smoking with beer. While it's a small detail I would think he would write that into Tom's character. I personally think he's some sort of Valar or equal to in power seeing how everything reacts to his singing.
There a bits of Tolkien in every character, more in Tom than most. The power of storytelling and song creation was certainly something identified with.
Sauron begins with a stomping snarling approach and Bombadil, floating like a butterfly, dances in and out like dappled sunshine through the trees on a breezy day. Sauron roars in anger and Tom mockingly sings in falsetto, proving that there is no note or theme outside the song of Elendil. Sauron swings and Bombadil bounces away, never in the place you saw him last, a moment later he's touching Sauron on the back with a stick, then ducking the swing and rolling away like a tumbleweed. Sauron is looking old and tired, he has no power to harm Tom, he drops the mace and grabs Bombadil with both hands, but Tom just kisses him on the forehead! Sauron reels back like he's been struck, but he can't seem to let go of Tom, the blue coat is just too spectacular to release! Tom seems to follow Sauron's step back, but then it's obvious, TOM IS LEADING THE DANCE! Sauron flops like a rag doll in Tom's mad dance, but his feet keep the time quite nicely, like those massive armored greaves weigh nothing at all! The song swells and drifts, the dance whirls and bounces, the grass and the birds and the dappled sunlight all bouncing in time! ...and then it's over, shockingly quiet. Sauron does a ludicrous walk-of-shame with his boots in one hand, limping ever-so-slightly away from Tom's beaming smile. The army of orcs and monsters are quiet, not knowing how to react to the silliest thing they've ever seen. Sauron slinks over the horizon, muttering to himself, "Fuck that guy and his stupid yellow boots..."
Great video, thank you for this long awaited vs video. I am fascinated by Tom, while I hear and understand Gandalf’s argument for dismissing Tom, let us consider that Sauron was in fact bested in duels before, in hand to hand battle with Huan for example. Nearly bested by Finrod Felagund in a battle of songs and spells, finally, he was severely wounded by Gil-Galad in their epic fight. So Sauron is not unbeatable whether in physical or metaphysical forms he can be bested. I do think Tom could route him, defeat him, embarrass him even, this said, I don’t think of Tom of as general or warrior who would destroy Sauron, rather he would defend, route him off and that’s it. Tom wouldn’t much care about pursuing this evil, I think that’s what Gandalf meant, that in the end, it needs to be the peoples of middle earth banning together to defeat Sauron and keeping the hope and beauty of songs, valleys, goodwill alive.
Opinion! Sauron would entreat with Iarwain. He knows this is an ancient and superior foe, and persuasion is Sauron's greatest tool. He used Palantir to deceive Saruman and Denethor. Subverted them, rather than fighting openly. He might leave Tom in his little enclave, ruling all beyond. But then he would parlay, and perhaps using the ring, take a form, pleasing and innocent. Tom would see through this, of course. He would know it is falsehood, but not understand or care enough and be led into whatever trap Sauron, as Mairon the admirable Maiar, would conceive. Tom would be destroyed, or trapped, and Goldberry sacrificed or perverted.
Bombadil, being the enigma that he is, I imagine being powerful enough to single handedly stop Sauron or most great evils. I also don't think he would comprehend the necessity to do such a thing on his own. I imagine Tom just snapping a finger or waving a hand and Sauron losing all of his power being unable to do anything. There is an episode of Star Wars Clone Wars where Yoda just deactivates Asaj Ventress' lightsabers with the force instead of actually fighting her. It would be like that.
I can’t imagine he’d have been capable of doing that, because Tom is only described as being master of himself and his land that he’s hidden and secluded himself in, Galadriel was able to hide Lothlorien similarly from Sauron, but it is clear that she would not have the ability to destroy him, and honestly she has more feats of power to her name than Tom, like when she single-handedly destroyed Dol Goldur and cleansed the Mirkwood of Sauron’s evil, so I can’t imagine Tom would be able to destroy Sauron if she couldn’t.
Given we watched Tom make the ring vanish and come back (you can only imagine Sauron at that time - for a brief moment he ceased to exist then comes back like wtf just happened) Tom wouldn’t attempt any conflict, rather ask which songs and legends he likes and if Sauron answers with violence, Tom would vanish. But if Sauron engages with words and takes Tom’s tea, Tom would welcome him like a friend and no doubt talk/sing Sauron to eternity till both disappear
Hey there, Mairon fair! Mairon my own dear one. Come follow merry Tom. Put down the name of Sauron! Without the weight of iron helm, your head is lighter bare. So come now friend, lay down your armour. Breathe the summer air! Over field, across the river young Goldberry is waiting. To hear us talk of Elder Days when the world was waking!
@@katherinegraham3803 Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow, Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow. None has ever caught him yet, For Tom, he is the master: his songs are stronger songs, and his feet are faster.
This was in one context. Are Bilbo and Frodo able to resist Sauron's presence and raw power just because they can resist the Ring? No. Sauron had already shown himself to be a more formidable power than Tom. Tom was immune to the Ring's effects, but this has little barring to an actual fight between demiurgic beings. Of which Tom has shown to be not a demiurgic being while Sauron has.
@@taelorpickel2830Bilbo and Frodo *resist* Sauron, Tom is described as the ring "having NO power over him", which isn't quite the same as "having power but it being resisted*
So they basically cancel each other out... What do you think about a raw fist fight between the two? No magic. Not armies. Just throwing down, playground rules...
It is like Tom Bombardil is a creature from a parallel world, not a product of Eru Iluvatar's creation. And just in Middle Earth as a guest to observe.
I thought I remember a comment in one of the history of middle earth books that Tolkien said that if anyone had just thought to ask Bombadil he had the ability to de-power or neutralize the one ring
Thanks for making this wonderful video, and adding the great artwork and crediting the artists! It’s a very interesting question, and given the fact that the ring had no effect on him tells me that Sauron wouldn’t either. It’s like he lives on Middle-earth as a visitor without any of the evils or wills of the natural inhabitants having any influence on him whatsoever. I think if Sauron tried to attack him, he could shrink him in the palm of his hand, and Sauron would shout back in a tiny voice, hey, what’s the big idea, and Tom would just flick him back to Mordor with his forefinger 😂
After a fire completely destroys huge sections of land, we will inevitably see one small green plant or flower regrow in that desolated area over time. Eventually life comes back. That is what Tom represents to me. I think that if Sauron had destroyed Middle Earth to the point of the disappearance of Tom, he would have eventually reappeared during such a time when nature would reclaim the land.
An excellent discussion and perspective of the 2 essential forces that can be contained in us all. Sauron may take him in the short run, but Nature, Benevolence, and Time always wins in the end. Thanks, Ken.
I believe if it came down to a fight, Tom would prevail by causing Sauron to destroy himself using his own power using what I can only describe as metaphysical Judo strategies.
I've always interpreted Bombadil as the personification of nature - he does not turn invisible just as if you put the ring on a branch, it would not turn invisible I've thought that Bombadil restricts himself to the old forest as being Tolkien's message about nature being much smaller and limited as it was in the past - remember Treebeard once mentioned a squirrel could once jump from tree to tree from the sea to.. I don't remember where specifically, but far is my point. Given this is the third age, that is what I understand the limiting factor due to the rise of dwarves and men and orcs even, cutting down nature to fuel their lives Can't be the truth, but I like to think about it
Tom could very well be Chaos, as in the very embodiment of Ginnungagap the Norse belief of the time before anything. He is the Eldest, he is fatherless and he was the First. He is neutral and cares not for the affairs of the world. He has no concept of good or evil, and not interfering, is chaos.
Tom is both the spirit and the music of the Ainur itself. He is a personification of the music that the Ainur used to sing the world into existence, which is why he is always singing and whistling. He is living music and thus represents the very spirit of the land. There you have it.
My first stuffed animal as a kid (a dog, in case you were wondering) was named Tom Bombadil. I've always had an affection for the character and enjoy videos about him.
Tom is the only being that after all this time has stayed true to the Will of Illuvitar and so his power is great. But as soon as he forces his Will over others his powers would diminish. He said he is the master of none. He merely reunites things with the original song of Illuvitar and to everyone else it looks like magic. That's what I like to think.
I still believe that Tom is Eru in physical form living separately in the Old Forest observing how his Music is playing out in the wider world and how its being shaped. His behaviour is very similar to Eru himself. Separated and unconcerned about the death and destruction that both Dark Lords have levied on Arda. He is letting the music run its course. He is letting his children dance to the music. Now, Eru only intervened when pleaded by the Valar. The cost of his intervention? Arda forever changed - Numenor destroyed and Valinor removed completely from reach by mortal men. Gandalf made a comment during the Council that Tom may keep the ring if all the Free People of the Earth asked him. I firmly believe all the free people of earth would ask him to do so and Tom would keep it. However, the suggestion was never given a chance to be exected. My theory is that Gandalf feared that if Tom got involved then Arda would forever be changed yet again. The cost would be too great. Also, defeating Sauron had to be done by the people of earth in order for them to grow. Now, on a 1 on 1 fight between the two? Of course Tom would win. How many times has Sauron lost when he came out to fight on his own? Luthien kicked his ass and she's just a half elf/half maiar hybrid. How would Sauron fair against (not going for Eru this time) the embodiment of Arda, the embodiment of Nature or the Music of the Ainur (as the other theories claim)? It's hard to fathom that Luthien is more powerful than the embodiment of Arda, Nature or the Music of the Ainuir. Remember, the son's of Feanor caught and imprisoned Luthien. No one's every caught Tom - and we know, NO ONE! And I doubt Sauron would succeed even with his fancy ring on. We know Sauron has his sorcery. But Tom has his voice. Sauron's sorcery seeks out weaknesses to take advantage and he won't find one in Tom which would render him powerless to defeat him. Tom would just tell Sauron go back to Valinor and asked for the Valar's forgiveness and Sauron will probably obey. Okay. So Sauron uses his army of Orcs, Troll, Vampires and whatever foul creatures that his evil has summoned to fight Tom. Fine. What's stopping the embodiment of Arda, nature or the Music of the Ainur or as Goldberry describes him "The Master of wood, water, and hill" from summoning all the creatures of nature that exist in Arda - all the creatures that exist in Midldle Earth all the way to the continent of Arda where Valinor is located. Now, Goldbery mentioned "water" which means he probably could summon all the creatures in all the seas and oceans and rivers and lakes that Ulmo rules. Im comparing Tom to Eywa from the movie Avatar summoning all creatures to fight. So in the end Tom would triumph over Sauron. But what would be the cost to Arda if they fought it out? I guess we wil just have to speculate but we know when great powers battle - the land and people suffer. Tom will win but I doubt he will fight Sauron. The cost will be too great. So, He'll just relocate to Aman. He and Goldberyy will likely move to Ungoliath's old place seeing its available since she left abruplty breaking her lease to the Valars. They'll spruce it up and live happily ever after.
Keep in mind that Sauron with his One Ring was defeated 3 times in the Second Age. 1) around 1700 by Elves and Men in Eriador (Gil-galad, Elrond and Numenoreans); 2) in the 3260s by Ar-Pharazon and the host of Numenor; and 3) in the 3430s by The Last Alliance of Men and Elves. So I wonder, could Tom Bombadil withstand a Sauron who has not recovered the One Ring. But then, Tom would also have to defeat Sauron's hosts and the Nazgul. (I'm thinking of an alternate outcome where Frodo fails in his quest but the One is just lost again.)
My theory is that Bombadil is the land itself incarnated into a physical body. Sort of a conscious Arda. Sauron can not destroy the land, only reshape it. In a fight, Bombadil could not be killed, but maybe forced to take another form. In the process, Sauron would expend a ton of energy and effort. But as the land is basically neutral, Sauron would likely choose to ignore Bombadil. This could explain how Bombadil can make the ring disappear, as it often did disappear and go missing under a mountain or a river. The land of can conceal treasure but not destroy it outright.
Tolkien himself said he didn't know exactly what Tom Bombadil was, and Tom and Goldberry didn't fit neatly into the stated cosmogony outlined in the Silmarillion. But Tolkien had put Bombadil into his previous writings, and obviously liked him (and possibly identified with him to some extent), so he put him into the Lord of the Rings without further explanation, leaving his exact nature ambiguous. However, based on some of Tolkien's other writings, and the fact that he was trying to create a mythology for the British Isles, Bombadil seems to be analogous to a primordial spirit of the earth in mythology, basically created or arriving into Arda at its creation, an aspect of what Jesuit theologians would call God's primordial nature. Similarly, Goldberry, "the river woman's daughter," would be a nature spirit formed as the world evolved, an aspect of what the Jesuits would call God's consequent nature.
Always thought of Tom as the embodiment of the song of the universe - so if in the end all was tainted (by Sauron or otherwise) he would either be gone or completely changed
I think Gandalf, while overwhelming wise, is sometimes wrong. I think he's wrong about Tom. Tom wasn't only able to be unaffected by the ring, but he affected the ring by his own will by making it disappear. I suspect that if he found himself in the situation, he could affect Sauron himself with his will as well.
I might be totally wrong, but I always got the feeling that Tom Bombadil showed up in the beginning of LOTR because Tolkien was still figuring out what the story was going to be in Book 1. I don't know what Tolkien's writing process was like, but it is possible he did not have everything plotted out ahead of time.
The true answer is probably Tom is Tom. My theorist answer is he was created by the music in the discord of Melkor. Where some of the discord influenced foul things like the Watcher in the Water, the response of Eru in incorporation created good things. Thus, Tom would be in creation even before Melkor ever set foot in Arda.
Do you think Tom is a liar? Or do you think he does not know what he is? According to his own words he's eldest. Not eldest in Arda, those are not his words. He's eldest, I trust him on his word. He could not have been created by Melkor. For that would mean Melkor is older than Tom, and Tom is eldest. He could not have been created by Eru. For that would mean Eru is older than Tom, and Tom is eldest. Tom was there before creation and will be there after it. To him the darkness of Melkor or Sauron are but fleeting things, for which he can't worry too much about. Gamdalf and the elves can't phantom the power Tom has, and as a result underestimate it. Neither can they understand the perspective of a being older than time.
@@woodytimes9029 Ahh. Then Tom is Tom. For Tom is indeed older the Eru for Tom was in a literary sense created before Eru by Tolkein. Thus, he is eldest.
Tom is most likely an Ainur content to enjoy Arda without trying to shape it, unlike the Vala or Melkor. He doesn't intervene to save the four hobbits per se, but to save their stories. A victory by Sauron over everyone else would effectively end stories and thus Tom Bombadil's reason for remaining in Arda, to learn and recount interesting stories. So I can't imagine Tom and Sauron ever fighting.
My theory is that Tom is a Maia. Eru or one of the Valar would not have fallen against Sauron even when he had the one ring, and if he was a mortal he would not have had the power that he had, and the ring would have turned him invisible. But one of the Maiar could potentially be defeated by Sauron.
I'm no lore master, but I get the sense Tom is essentially a representation of life and nature. Similar to how the Germans in WWII were devastated by the Winter, Tom represents the awesome power alive in the core of existance, while also representing the random nature of its actions. In sum, whether or not Sauron could defeat Tom, I think is similar to whether humans could destroy life on Earth. We're no match for its awesome power if it were to turn against us, but its very nature keeps it from directing that power to destroy us. At least so far as we know. 😅
Well Sauron took part in the creation, Tom was just the first being in Arda, but there is not much evidence of his power over Sauron aside from the dubious fact that he was unamused by the Ring, which while a powerful asset, was in a realm of which Tom was great, and also that Sauron relied on many more abilities aside from mere corruption. Had Tom gone into Sammath-Naur, the Realm of Sauron's Power, it would be no contest.
@@taelorpickel2830 Your assessment makes sense, but I think the idea that Tom was just kind of left in the story, means he's not really supposed to make sense within the rules of the lore. Rather, that Tolkien didn't feel it necessary make him fit to the rules. He just seems to me, like a character who's the personification of existence. Good or bad, doesn't register. He's just a character that does stuff. Gods and elves and men come up with plans and have goals, but a hurricane is just a thing that happens. Though I suppose if my interpretation is correct, maybe he'd be a bit more chaotic, and less compassionate. Hard to say.
Tom Bombadil arrives at the Black Gates of Mordor: Mouth of Sauron: "Master, Tom Bombadil is just outside!" Sauron: "Bombadil??? G*ddamn!!!!!! Open up the rear gates. I'm ghostin'!!!!!!"
Tom is a lover, not a fighter. His natural defenses are incredible. Unfortunately, this has also resulted in nonchalance regarding the things that are lethal to other "lesser" beings until it is too late. I do wonder what he'd be capable of if he'd had a mind for offens
I’d imagine that if this fight would also have to include his bride Goldberry so it would be a masterful double team against Sauron. The dark lord would have his hands full with Tom Bombadil alone, then throw Gold Berry in the mix it would be epic and the song that Tom would sing would be amazing! Win or loose this would be fascinating and fantastic.
The one ring has no power over tom because he has no ambition. He is content with his life as it is. I think the one ring needs someone with ambition to be able to corrupt them.
@@TheBrokenSword Well, 'river's daughter' could refer either to a powerful nature spirit tied to that river, or to one of the maiar under Ulmo, lord of all the waters, or to a child of a maiar under Ulmo (we know they can have children, thanks to Melian "the Maia"). Given Goldberry seemed to be associated with natural cycles and flowers as well as the river, she could have been a minor maia, child of one of Ulmo's and one of Yavanna's, or some such. Something like that world's equivalent of a naiad.
Hands down Tom. Tom would whisper a few words, into Sauron's equivalent of ears, and the dark lord would quickly drown in tears, as he contemplates the horrific pain he's inflicted over his years. I would bet all my gold coins on Tom inflicting an existential crisis on Sauron and then Tom would invite him over to smoke some Toby and drink some ale, that evening Tom would explain to Sauron the error of his ways and Sauron would finally see what he has become, suddenly unburdened by the shadow of Melkor Sauron would ask Tom what he himself could do to make up for his horrific past. Tom would give him a flower seed and tell Sauron to take the flower back to Mordor and build a garden so that the flower can grow, Sauron would hurry back to Mordor and build this garden and plant the flower, he would heal the scarred land of Mordor so that the flower may flourish, he would build towers and walls to protect this flower from being trodden, and eventually Sauron would become so consumed by the act of protecting this flower he would wage war on all the world, his fear that Men, Elves or anything that walks might step on his flower he believes he has to wipe them out to secure the safety of his flower. Eventually during this new war he would encounter Tom one more time, Tom would once again show Sauron the error of his ways and Sauron would be so distraught by the realization the shadow of Melkor had once again consumed him that Sauron would abandon middle Earth entirely, his body would turn to dust and his spirit would willingly enter the void in order to protect the world from himself.
Sauron would very quickly scud him in the face with that mace. What would happen next though is an interesting prospect. Angry Tom might be a different thing altogether.
I like to think that Tom would simply make the mace vanish before it could hit him like he made the One Ring vanish. Another possibility is that it hits him, but it does nothing to his face. Sauron would just be astonished and Tom would laugh him in the face, which would make Sauron even angrier. He would try to hit Tom in the head again and again, until he is worn out or the mace destroyed. All the while Tom would still stand there and laugh. Afterwards Tom would stop laughing and just say: "You done now, boy?"
"Tom Bombodil will stop being Tom"... This made me imagine him becoming like a different character - no longer cheerful, but vengeful instead. And I imagined him going on a quest to take down Sauron by himself. But even if he won, he'd never be the same again.
I think he's Eru in disguise as a personality omnipresently manifested. Since Eru is the Light (the father principle), and Bombadil claiming to be father-less.
The Broken Sword. This is very close to the old argument about the unstoppable force meeting the immovable object. I believe what you said is correct. The source of Tom's power good and growing things. Sauron's comes from destroying good and growing things. If you have no power to fight, you lose. That's basically what happened to Saurom in the end.
Gandalf the white stated that he(the White Wizard) was the second most dangerous being after Sauron in Middle Earth. So Tom Bombadil was even weaker than Gandalf the white, he wasn't a match to the Dark Lord: "Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, *unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord."* [-The Two Towers, LoTR Book 3, Ch 5, The White Rider]
@The Official Nerdy Channel Well, nope! You are just ignoring what Gandalf said there. There is no any evidence to say Bombadil was not using his full power lol. It is quoted that Tom Bombadil(with the Ring) would fall after all others were defeated. He had no powers such likeness of the Ainur. If Sauron really attacked Tom Bombadil I don't think Tom could defend himself from the ragefull Dark Lord. Remember that Sauron is the one Maia who broke the power of Vala Ulmo in the first age and later defied the lightning strike of Manwe in Numenor in the second age. As we see we can say that our Dark Lord would crush Bombadil easily. As Tolkien noted, "that power was not in him(Bombadil)!" Edit: Tom Bambadil was NOT a member of Ainur! Because he said he witnessed the coming of the first dark lord Melkor and other Valar down onto the Arda(earth). So Tom was always in the Arda he was not an Ainu spirit (Valar/Maiar).
@@_semih_ Then why could Tom make the One Ring vanish and appear again? Or why could he still see Frodo, after Frodo put on the One Ring in Tom's home? Or how did he know that all the treasure from the Barrow Whights would just have be in the sun and it would uncorrupt them. Or from where did he have the knowledge that the swords he gave to Frodo and the other hobbits would hurt the Nazgul, when he never left his own little pocket of Middle Earth. He does not get many visitors. Even Gandalf says he hasn't visited him for a some time now. So how did Tom gain that knowledge?
@@artoriasvoncarstein820 Its because Tom 100% was a spiritual being and not a mortal flesh. In the story of the creation of the Ents, Tolkien mentioned "the spirits of nature". These were lesser spirits that were created in Arda(the earth) after the music of Ainur. Personally I see Tom as the opposite to Ungoliant, both of these characters were without an actual origin. Ungoliant came from the Void and Bombadil were always on the Earth even before the coming of Ainur from the outer big Void. Tolkien wanted to keep their origin as a permanent secret and mystery in his story. Bombadil knew that Arthedain swords that used to hurt WK because he was there during the war between Arnor and Angmar. Also that place was near to his home so he might explore and see all that treasure was there but he did not needed such stuff, he was not a warrior type character within the Legendarium. Finally, I've read it somewhere that Tolkien created Tom Bambadil out of this idea of Middle Earth later he decided to add this interesting character into his Middle Earth story. So the purpose the character of Tom Bombadil is to be a literal mistery(and there are some other characters like that such as nameless things, ungoliant, the 3 high spirit that even terrorized all the Valar in the Lost Tales book etc). Thats why we still talk about Tolkien's works! Despite the death of its author, the Legendarium of the Middle Earth still alive and people still talking about it's mysteries even after 50+ years :)
Tom has no ego, and doesn't have a concept of "I win / you lose". His is the nuance of bravery, kindness, sacrifice, and appreciation....his was the art of encouragement others.
I feel like Tom is actually Eru Ilúvatar just experiencing his creation as an unassuming character. Not there to make any changes but to enjoy the free will of his creation, the ring to him was probably fascinating and fun for him to play around with. It would make sence that he is the oldest and has no father as well. (Should have read the comments first lol looks like I'm not alone.)
Yeah I agree.The ring was made by the will of his creation so he respects free will enough not to delete it. instead he created hobbits solely to to do thering deletion.
I’m convinced that Tolkien used Tom as a deus ex machina to get the hobbits out of the tree and the barrow, but then didn’t have any use for him thereafter, so he simply ignored him as a factor.
Tom was the first character that Tolkien ever imagined. That's why he was there from the beginning. He almost breaks the 4th wall when you realize he's not a normal character within this world. He's more powerful than Eru himself, because Tom existed outside of Tolkien's Arda fantasy.
He's a fascinating being that we just don't know enough about Tom would not start the fight but he'd be a fierce opponent that Sauron would have no idea how to deal with
I respect the premise you bring up. Yet it is also a strange despite still being thought provoking. Sauron is a Maiar spirit although having power he is not unlimited and able to be defeated. Tom is an unknown character. My thought is Tom Bombadil is a literary manifestation of Tolkien himself.
What-if video idea for you to do: What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
I feel that Tom was Tolkien, himself, inserted into Middle Earth. And why not? He didn't seriously affect the plot except to defeat the barrow wight with a song, the exemplifications of Tolkien's philosophy, got to introduce himself and his wife to the Hobbits, played with the one ring, and was mentioned by the council as the first (as author) and last.
How would the fight go? Very tragically for Tom and Goldberry. My fanfic-like concept is that Sauron, in possession of the One Ring, and having defeated the Wizards and everyone else, would finally turn his eyes towards his last nemesis. He would burn and poison the lands and rivers around the Old Forest. The first to sicken and then die would be Goldberry as the rivers and weather no longer allow her to be who she is (a spirit of the rivers and weather, mainly). Tom would be griefstricken and find little left in the world for himself. He would not be the carefree spirit of the forest he once was, and his powers would wane and then Sauron's forces would raise the Old Forest to the ground.
I think your assessment is spot on. Bombadil is a parallel to or reflection of life and creation and I believe his power is based around that. The battle between him and Sauron, would, of course, be one of corruption and death vs creation and life. Sauron would not attack or attempt to harm Bombadil directly, assuming he could even do so, he would attack and corrupt life and nature. By destroying life and the good of creation, Bombadil would no longer have purpose and therefore would have nothing to fight for. He, perhaps, would even fade away, once again, as being that reflection of life, that which would no longer exist. Those are my thoughts, anyway. I could be completely wrong but it seems a reasonable outcome.
You ask the question without asking what death means for Tom,Just as youve discussed the differences in mortality of elves,Maiar from men death has different consequences for each so discussing a result would depend on how if even death would affect Tom, also it seems obvious Tom understands the song of Illuvatar in a much deeper way than Sauron so knows Sauron is absolutely no threat and is seeing events on a scale of time beyond all the other characters. What I'm getting at is the characters of the story have to have the sense of Jeopardy for the song to play out and it seems Tom is beyond this Jeopardy almost able to enjoy the song of Illuvater while all the others players are bound by the song.
Of course I can't know what Tolkien intended, if anything beyond including a character he liked. I see Tom Bombadil as an intentional anomaly in the world Tolkien created - both the embodiment of what he saw as important independent of the world and an acknowledged wild-card within it. Importantly the Hobbits grow by their meeting with Tom, but also the efforts of the good would have come to nothing but for the multiple consequences of that wholly unexpected occurrence.
i Heard somewhere that there is a fan theory that Tom and Goldberry were Morgoth and Ungoliant living out their time on middle earth, i like this theory but I'm sure I also read that Morgoth will return in the end times so doubt it holds up as a theory, would be fascinating if it were true lol
Hello all I wanted to expand on thoughts I have about Tom Bombadil. Here is a post I shared previously: My own "head-canon" for the quandary that is Tom is as follows: Tom is Eru's first manifestation of his thought brought into existence. Eru had all these ideas about their creation swirling in his thoughts and decided to manifest one into being to explore the concept. An alpha prototype of what would come to be known as the Valar and Maiar. This is why Tom is "The Oldest" or "The First". I like to imagine the two of them conversing about all the possibilities of Eru's upcoming creation. Just the two of them in the Void bouncing ideas off each other. This is why the Ring has no power over Tom. That is who Tom is in my Adventures in Middle Earth Campaign and how I see them when I read Tolkien's Works. To take this a step further, I think it was actually Tom who created the Hobbits much as Aulë created the Dwarves. I think Eru's reaction to Aule's hidden creation was tempered a bit by dealing with Tom previously during the creation of Arda. I think the difference being, Tom requested this addition to the song before going forward with his creation. Eru allowed the Hobbits to awaken in the East around the same time as the Fathers of the Dwarves. Eru also told Tom his creation would need to be tempered by the Great Journey as well. He did allow Tom to weave into the song the final destination for his Children. After helping Eru, before the Valar and Maiar were brought into existence, Tom asked permission to go into Arda to finish his own dwelling and prepare a space for his Children. This Eru granted. Tom descended into what would be known as Eriador. With the help of Yavanna and her Maiar, Tom helped to shape the lands of Eriador and what would become known as the Shire, Siragalë. Uinen sent her daughter, Laurëpië or Golberry, to aid Tom and Yavanna in their efforts. She too fell in love with this land, then in turn with Tom, and she chose to remain to create a home with him. She also helped Tom shape Siragalë's streams and little rivers in preparation for his Children. This is my own take for my campaigns in Middle Earth, taken from MERP and my own thoughts. I think in MERP Tom is a Maiar of Yavanna's folk.
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Tom wins the battle, and not with some traditional use of force, he simply brings life with him to the battle. Sauron grabs Tom and in victory pulls him close, Top puts an acorn inside sauron's helmet, Tom makes the acorn grow inside sauron's armor, and in a moment sauron is trapped forever inside a tree. fight over. no great show of violence, just life eternal winning against the upstart.
@@onemadhungrynomad great idea
Tom would just be dancing and singing with Sauron unable to catch him. Sauron, exhausted, falls to his knees. Goldberry sneaks up behind him and knifes him. Tom had no idea he was even in a fight
Perfection 👌🏻
So, like a dolphin vs a shark?
I can’t picture Golberry knifing anybody. How about this: Tom leads Sauron to the banks of the Withywindle, where a sudden drowsiness descends upon the dark lord’s mind. Then, much like Melkor under Luthein’s spell, he topples to the ground with a crash. A gap opens in the ancient, gnarled willow nearby, and the roots draw him in. The gap shuts with a snap, and Bombadil skips away merrily to pick some water-lilies.
ruclips.net/video/ZZouiWmzWoY/видео.html
Perfect
I think Tom is old enough to have seen the rise and fall of both Melkor and Sauron once already. If born of the Music of Creation he is aware of the Eru's final act and it's outcome and therefore has little concern over the tribulations of those who must play their roles in the game of Fate.
What was Eru's final act? I don't remember that from my (admittedly skimpy) reading of The Silmarilan.
That Melkor would Escape from the doors of Darkness. A final battle would ensue and Turin would finally avenge his family and kill the dark lord.
@@archercromwell1571 OK, thanks!
@@mordechai-
Frankly, I believe that TB is either an enigma or he is the embodiment of the secret fire: set at the heart of Middle Earth.
He was there already so...🤓😎✌🏻
If it wasn't for Tom, The fellowship would never have happened, The journey would have ended before it began. Tom saved the 4 hobbits and also equipped them with the weapons they would need. That to me indicates he was aware of his part and did what was required to achieve the end result. Tom exists out of time and can see what the future holds.
Certainly Bombadils choice of weapons given to Merry and Pippin seems to have played an exact part to first cripple and lead to the destruction of the Witch King at the battle of Pelenor fields. So I am leaning your way to agree.
@@noelstarchild nope
@@jasonfuentz4282 (?)
Nope because, or just nope.
I thought all the trolls have gone at last.
@@noelstarchild just nope
@@jasonfuentz4282
Thank you for your contribution.
A fight between Sauron and Tom seems like an echo of Morgoth vs. Ungoliant, the dark twin of Tom thematically, a being without explanation or defined status. While her fate is often assumed to be an unending consumption ending in herself, Tom is consumed by nothing. I think Sauron would attempt to fight him but find that all efforts were in vain. He would never be able to force a final conflict, and the land Tom chose to hold would forever remain a pocket of purity and reminder to Sauron of his limits. Like Varda placing the Sickle above Utumno to always remind Melkor she and the Valar were there opposing him.
Agree, next video "Ungoliant versus Tom Bombadil"!!
Well said, Mr. Rhome.
Tom is obviously older than Sauron and likely of a higher order of creation than the Maia and i totally disagree with the videos conclusion...i don't think any fight would happen between them because even with the ring Sauron would have no power over him of course Tom wouldn't fight because that's his nature but i also believe that ultimately Sauron would lose because he cant beat Tom and because of HIS(Sauron)nature he must beat him...
@@wildfire160 Older as in having the oldest physical existence of any creature, yes. But the Ainur (including Sauron) existed as spirits prior to the creation of Arda and physical reality as a whole. Sauron didn’t get his physical manifestation until after he helped the heavenly host bring the very concept of ‘being’ into being, but that’s just the point. Tom might be the soul of Arda and might be comparable or even greater in strength to Manwe himself, but he is surely a product of the great music like the Elves and Ents and as such can’t be older than a member of the Ainur. In terms of orders of creation, that’s definitely up for debate. The comparison with Ungoliant is one I’ve liked. It’s known that Melkor’s discord manifested many dark creatures in the Void, so perhaps those loyal to Eru’s original music were responsible for weaving Tom into creation by how fiercely they sang in reprisal.
Very interesting
"Could that power be defied by Bombadil
alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.’
‘I know little of Iarwain save the name,’ said Galdor; ‘but Glorfindel, I think, is right. Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself. And yet we see that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills."
The key question then is if that power is within the earth itself. I'd generally say not to a degree that could stop Sauron. However, I do consider the head from a beheaded statue of a king of old that is crowned by flowers as it lay on the ground being noted by Sam as an act of defiance against Sauron to be important when thinking about Tom. I think there are things that exist that may have been able to resist Sauron even if he recovered the one ring. These things might be on the edge of Sauron's empire, but his empire probably would not be 100% total even had won the War of the Ring (or a 100% victory would have taken a very long time to achieve).
Don't forget this is spoken from the point of view of elves. Who may not understand much of the true might of the Maia and Vala. Certainly not of an eccentric being as Tom.
This is probably a literary excuse for keeping Tom out of the story more than an accurate commentary on his capability.
@@eschelar Yes, It would have been a very short book If Tom took care of Sauron then and there, so I agree.
Yeah except that quote offers nothing but to highlight the speculative shortsightedness of the elves when it comes to pondering all things that are above them. If the elves are staking their chips on the side of Sauron, then most likely it would be Tom taking the W.
I don't think it would be possible to eliminate all good on Middle-earth anymore than it would to eliminate all bad. The worst it would get would be a tiny patch of land that Tom Bombadil would somehow maintain as a golden fiefdom. Sauron vetching and grinding his teeth over the fact that he cannot dominate completely everything.
The real question of the elves discussing Bombadil's power is do they really know what he's capable of, or are they merely speculating? I think the most telling part is that he really wouldn't care enough about it to do anything.
Interesting. I’d never thought of that but it makes sense. We assume that a Maia such as Gandalf or immortals such as Elrond know more about Tom than we do, but perhaps not enough.
Perhaps Tom’s abilities are to Gandalf what Gandalf’s are to Frodo making TB’s abilities being out of the council’s realm of consciousness.
Perhaps he'd absorb the evil and turn it into laughter and song. Sauron would vaporize??
Not until he, himself, is directly affected. Then it would be a titanic battle. But who would win? Between Tom with zero assistance and Sauron with all his allies and vassals? In the end, even Tom cannot be in all places at once. He can only preserve that which is within his presence.
@@jdlech Yes but remember that Tom is always at one place.
Tom is the spirit of nature, the Green Man, or as he is often called in the English Midlands 'The Lad in the Lane'. He simply negates the industrial might of Sauron. Nature will prevail .... beyond the Age on Man. He was there at The Big Bang of Tolkien's cosmology.
I would theorize that if Tom was a spirit in physical form like Ungoliant he could go toe-to-toe with Sauron as Ungoliant did with Melkor.
Ungoliant's power grew enormously after she consumed the light of the Two Trees as well as the vats of liquid light that existed around the base of the Trees. It wasn't until after that point that Morgoth began to be afraid of her.
Another thing to add is Melkor was HEAVILY weakend having spread most of his power across the vast lands and array of entitiys so he wasn't even half strength.
8:36 16:00 I think the best theory of what Tom is, is that he represents the song Eru sung itself. He represents the nature of things, and he doesnt understand the battle between light and dark... Yet his power is arguably greater than the istary, and the ring doesn't have an effect on him (like it would say on Gandalf, who was petrified of even touching it). He was there in the beginning before anyone else, he is fatherless and also i think Tolkien said Eru doesn't have a physical incarnation. He is the song itself. It's why he would be simultaneously the best and worst person to be the ring bearer... He could easily throw it into mount doom and never become corrupt by the ring, yet it would be impossible to get him to the mountain because he simply doesn't care or can't comprehend the situation.
Tom made a little magical barrier around his land and hid from Sauron, waiting for better days. So, if he could win or even fight, why make a tiny little haven and hide...
"“Say rather that the Ring has no power over him. He is his own master. But he cannot alter the Ring itself, nor break its power over others. And now he is withdrawn into a little land, within bounds that he has set, though none can see them, waiting perhaps for a change of days, and he will not step beyond them.”
"Could that power be defied by Bombadil
alone? I think not. I think that in the end, if all else is conquered, Bombadil will fall, Last as he was First; and then Night will come.’
‘I know little of Iarwain save the name,’ said Galdor; ‘but Glorfindel, I think, is right. Power to defy our Enemy is not in him, unless such power is in the earth itself. And yet we see that Sauron can torture and destroy the very hills" - The council of Elrond
i dont think he was hiding at all. he just didn't care. sauron was irrelevant to him. he probably thought he can kick saurons butt any time if he wanted to. but he was just lazy and didn't care , i guess
@@rafaelgustavo7786 hard to argue with Glorfindel, one of the few in middle earth that may have actually known who/what he really was.
The depiction of Tom as Jack Black is by far my favorite.
Oh my gosh, yes. Jack Black would make an excellent Tom Bombadil.
If there is ever a Live action Tom Bombadil there are exactly two people who can portray him. One is Jack Black, the other is Snoop Dog
Im glad its not just me who saw Jack Black in that particuar artwork at 18:04 of Tom Bombadil 😄
18:03 Jack Black smile right here
i came to the comment section to make this exact comment!🤟
Tom would probably forget he was in a fight and bounce away singing about trees and rabbits. Then Sauron would knife him in the back
That does sound quite Tom-like! Although he would probably keep dodging by skipping 😂
@@TheBrokenSword lol true story
The knife would curve with the warping of space around Tom and would never reach him.
Tom is permanently in Ultra Instinct.
If you’ve ever listened to the audio-book LOTR you will want to knife Tom in the back too. Most. Annoying. Character. Ever.
I have always thought of him as Eru personified. The ring has no hold on him because he has everything he could want. He is perfectly satisfied
He was apparently around before anything else, so I was thinking he's a sliver of Eru (not Eru himself, in full), left there as a way for Eru to observe/be part of his creation. As such he may not be that much of an offensive power, but he's probably impossible to attack.
The author has said that there is not a personification of Eru that we meet... But in my own head canon I see Tom as an avatar or projection or something of Eru. It just feels right 😁
No. This was already disproven in the texts. Eru is not physically present in Arda.
I think Tom is the personification of Arda itself - specifically, he is Arda uncorrupted by Melkor.
So while he is not Eru himself, he is the embodiment of Eru's vision for Creation. As such, he must reflect Eru's will to some extent.
Tom is an aspect of creation itself. And with that in mind has a direct correlation and link to Eru Ilúvatar and has all the same powers and gifts associated with him. So it wouldn't even be a battle. Tom would just imagine Sauron out of existence. His powers are so far beyond Sauron and even Morgoth that it can't even be fathomed!
Best answer so far! The final sentence of your comment is the most pertinent, and a concept that most folks forget. Frightened as Morgoth was of Ungoliant, he would be ten thousand times more frightened of Tom Bombadil, since Tom could actually compass Morgoth's vanishing into nothingness, as easily as flowing water vanquishes a flame.
Tom would be Eru, then.
Apologies, but where does this information come from? There is no text that I can find that describes Tom ever being related to Eru Ilúvatar. I am certain he does NOT have the powers of Eru. Melkor is through and through, by word of text by Tolkien himself, the most powerful being aside from Eru, in his works. Tom would be a miniscule thing to the Ainur in their true beings and state.
Eru is the only entity that can unmake the Ainur, Tom does not have this power.
Well said, or to put it another way, Sauron wouldn't even think about confronting him directly. Tom is as close to a personification of a god as we get.
How would such a fight occur? I’d take a page from the Silmarillion where Sauron battles Finrod in songs of power. It would not be a physical fight but of words; a Tolkien rap battle, as it were. It would surely be epic.
Good idea for an Epic Rap Battle
I’m thinking there could be a stand alone movie of the hobbits entering the old forest up to Tom escorting them to the boundary of his land.
On another note, one of those images of Tom certainly had Jack Black’s eye sparkle and grin
I saw Jack Black, too! He'd be a good Tom.
maybe fan made movie?
IMHO, the evil of Sauron focused on Tom Bombadil would be like ping pong balls thrown at a pillow....
Tom would have beaten Sauron, Sarumon, Melkor, Darth Vader, The Balrog, and Smaug in one fight.
You just can't stop his singing.
Especially, if he sings "Indian Love Call" (the Slim Whitman song).
Remember, that song killed the Martians in Mars Attacks.
I must say, I really *love* my job. Great work on bringing this idea and script to life, James!
My personal HC is that Tom and Goldberry are literal guests in Arda, drawn to its beauty from Outside, like Ungoliant was drawn in by her endless hunger; but they fit in much better. Maybe Eru himself taught them to.
My theory about Tom Bombadil is that he is one of the "nameless creatures" but a positive version. The nameless creatures originated in the discord in the music by Melkor, which led to many unintended creatures to take form before the Ainur even reached Arda. Most of these were evil or grotesque, since they were accidents of the discord. But Tom is probably the one "happy little accident", where the discord actually created a being who is good and yet immensely powerful. This adds up with Tom's claim that he was in Arda even before Sauron or the Valar.
My head cannon is that Tom Bombadil is a "systemic anomaly" in the Music of the Ainur, a la Neo in The Matrix:
In the Ainulindale, when Eru Illuvatar gave the Ainur a vision of what their music might create, they took great joy in it and wished it _to be._
Bombadil is the manifestation of that joy and that wish, a harmonic overtone created unintentionally and _before_ the Ainur descended into Arda from the Timeless Halls and the Children of Eru were awakened.
Because he is not a "sung" part of the Music, the One Ring has no power over him, and because he was a byproduct of the Ainur's joy in creating, he spreads that joy and emboldens their creation.
I think the issue wasn't that Tom Bombadil wasn't strong enough to challenge Sauron, but that he was not interested in leaving his self-imposed boundaries. Tom was the master of his own lands. The council believed that he would be conquered last. To me this implied Tom was stronger. He was dismissed as a possible guardian of the ring due to a perceived irresponsible nature.
Tom isn’t irresponsible, he’s disinterested. And what is there to conquer with Tom? He keeps to himself and his extended garden.
I always interpreted Tom as being an embodiment of the goodness of life and nature, and also of the hope for a better future. Thus, Tom's powers are best expressed through the actions and choices of others rather than his own, since the goodness and hope of others is the essence of what he is. This could be why he loves collecting and telling heroic stories. This is also why he cannot be corrupted by the ring directly. He will not fall until all creation has been conquered and the hope for a better future wiped out, cutting him off from his source of power. As to who would win, I think Tom did in a sense. Sauron was brought down by Frodo and the Fellowship's courage and perseverance in the face of evil, which is what Tom is all about. Sauron is destroyed and the heroes become another story of good triumphing over evil, breathing life and power into Tom.
In the Silmarillion it states that there were many entities that entered the world who were not Maia, Ainar etc. For instance Ungoliant. My opinion has always been that these entities indeed were of the same race as the Ainar but all were of different power levels. Ungoliant supposedly defeated Morgoth until he called for help etc. so Bombadil and even Goldberry were of that angelic (or demonic) race of spirits. One way to tell is almost all cases the Angelic or good side were usually married and those that were not mentioned as being married could have been anyway.
I think it's possible that Tom could very well be a literary representation of Tolkien himself. Maybe not an exact representation of who Tolkien was but a projection of what Tolkien wished to be.
I would disagree. Tolkein was obsessed with pipe smoking with beer. While it's a small detail I would think he would write that into Tom's character. I personally think he's some sort of Valar or equal to in power seeing how everything reacts to his singing.
I think he's the voice of Eru.
There a bits of Tolkien in every character, more in Tom than most. The power of storytelling and song creation was certainly something identified with.
That would be allegory …
its not a "i think" you didnt think that lol. that has literally been a fan theory for like 60 years
Sauron begins with a stomping snarling approach and Bombadil, floating like a butterfly, dances in and out like dappled sunshine through the trees on a breezy day. Sauron roars in anger and Tom mockingly sings in falsetto, proving that there is no note or theme outside the song of Elendil. Sauron swings and Bombadil bounces away, never in the place you saw him last, a moment later he's touching Sauron on the back with a stick, then ducking the swing and rolling away like a tumbleweed. Sauron is looking old and tired, he has no power to harm Tom, he drops the mace and grabs Bombadil with both hands, but Tom just kisses him on the forehead! Sauron reels back like he's been struck, but he can't seem to let go of Tom, the blue coat is just too spectacular to release! Tom seems to follow Sauron's step back, but then it's obvious, TOM IS LEADING THE DANCE! Sauron flops like a rag doll in Tom's mad dance, but his feet keep the time quite nicely, like those massive armored greaves weigh nothing at all! The song swells and drifts, the dance whirls and bounces, the grass and the birds and the dappled sunlight all bouncing in time!
...and then it's over, shockingly quiet. Sauron does a ludicrous walk-of-shame with his boots in one hand, limping ever-so-slightly away from Tom's beaming smile. The army of orcs and monsters are quiet, not knowing how to react to the silliest thing they've ever seen. Sauron slinks over the horizon, muttering to himself, "Fuck that guy and his stupid yellow boots..."
That was pretty good
@@denissavgir2881 thank you!
Somewhat crude, but damn funny!
I always loved the Tom B. segment & his response to the ring. He didn't even care about the power, greed & evil. The original hippy.
I've often thought that Tom was Melkor. Not the Dark Lord but that which was good in Melkor in the beginning, personified.
Great video, thank you for this long awaited vs video. I am fascinated by Tom, while I hear and understand Gandalf’s argument for dismissing Tom, let us consider that Sauron was in fact bested in duels before, in hand to hand battle with Huan for example. Nearly bested by Finrod Felagund in a battle of songs and spells, finally, he was severely wounded by Gil-Galad in their epic fight.
So Sauron is not unbeatable whether in physical or metaphysical forms he can be bested. I do think Tom could route him, defeat him, embarrass him even, this said, I don’t think of Tom of as general or warrior who would destroy Sauron, rather he would defend, route him off and that’s it. Tom wouldn’t much care about pursuing this evil, I think that’s what Gandalf meant, that in the end, it needs to be the peoples of middle earth banning together to defeat Sauron and keeping the hope and beauty of songs, valleys, goodwill alive.
Opinion! Sauron would entreat with Iarwain. He knows this is an ancient and superior foe, and persuasion is Sauron's greatest tool. He used Palantir to deceive Saruman and Denethor. Subverted them, rather than fighting openly. He might leave Tom in his little enclave, ruling all beyond. But then he would parlay, and perhaps using the ring, take a form, pleasing and innocent. Tom would see through this, of course. He would know it is falsehood, but not understand or care enough and be led into whatever trap Sauron, as Mairon the admirable Maiar, would conceive. Tom would be destroyed, or trapped, and Goldberry sacrificed or perverted.
Bombadil, being the enigma that he is, I imagine being powerful enough to single handedly stop Sauron or most great evils. I also don't think he would comprehend the necessity to do such a thing on his own. I imagine Tom just snapping a finger or waving a hand and Sauron losing all of his power being unable to do anything. There is an episode of Star Wars Clone Wars where Yoda just deactivates Asaj Ventress' lightsabers with the force instead of actually fighting her. It would be like that.
Perfect analogy!
I can’t imagine he’d have been capable of doing that, because Tom is only described as being master of himself and his land that he’s hidden and secluded himself in, Galadriel was able to hide Lothlorien similarly from Sauron, but it is clear that she would not have the ability to destroy him, and honestly she has more feats of power to her name than Tom, like when she single-handedly destroyed Dol Goldur and cleansed the Mirkwood of Sauron’s evil, so I can’t imagine Tom would be able to destroy Sauron if she couldn’t.
Tom would just smile and laugh singing his songs. And Sauron would all of a sudden find himself in the void with Melkor (Morgoth)
I always thought of Tom Bombadil as a physical representation of Middle Earth itself.
This is an excellent post - thanks all. Really enjoyed it and you can tell it is well researched :)
I love how Tolkien described Tom playing around with the ring mirroring how Tolkien played around with the idea of Tom being the hero
Given we watched Tom make the ring vanish and come back (you can only imagine Sauron at that time - for a brief moment he ceased to exist then comes back like wtf just happened)
Tom wouldn’t attempt any conflict, rather ask which songs and legends he likes and if Sauron answers with violence, Tom would vanish.
But if Sauron engages with words and takes Tom’s tea, Tom would welcome him like a friend and no doubt talk/sing Sauron to eternity till both disappear
Hey there, Mairon fair! Mairon my own dear one.
Come follow merry Tom. Put down the name of Sauron!
Without the weight of iron helm, your head is lighter bare.
So come now friend, lay down your armour. Breathe the summer air!
Over field, across the river young Goldberry is waiting.
To hear us talk of Elder Days when the world was waking!
@@katherinegraham3803 Old Tom Bombadil is a merry fellow,
Bright blue his jacket is, and his boots are yellow.
None has ever caught him yet, For Tom, he is the master:
his songs are stronger songs, and his feet are faster.
@@katherinegraham3803 Oh, bravo, beautifully done!
Beautiful!
I thought this too! Like the Hobbits saw it "disappear" but maybe it vanished from reality as well.
Bombadil, hands down Sauron's magic has already been shown to be useless against him when he held the ring.
This was in one context. Are Bilbo and Frodo able to resist Sauron's presence and raw power just because they can resist the Ring? No. Sauron had already shown himself to be a more formidable power than Tom. Tom was immune to the Ring's effects, but this has little barring to an actual fight between demiurgic beings. Of which Tom has shown to be not a demiurgic being while Sauron has.
@@taelorpickel2830Bilbo and Frodo *resist* Sauron, Tom is described as the ring "having NO power over him", which isn't quite the same as "having power but it being resisted*
So they basically cancel each other out... What do you think about a raw fist fight between the two? No magic. Not armies. Just throwing down, playground rules...
It is like Tom Bombardil is a creature from a parallel world, not a product of Eru Iluvatar's creation. And just in Middle Earth as a guest to observe.
I thought I remember a comment in one of the history of middle earth books that Tolkien said that if anyone had just thought to ask Bombadil he had the ability to de-power or neutralize the one ring
Thanks for making this wonderful video, and adding the great artwork and crediting the artists! It’s a very interesting question, and given the fact that the ring had no effect on him tells me that Sauron wouldn’t either. It’s like he lives on Middle-earth as a visitor without any of the evils or wills of the natural inhabitants having any influence on him whatsoever. I think if Sauron tried to attack him, he could shrink him in the palm of his hand, and Sauron would shout back in a tiny voice, hey, what’s the big idea, and Tom would just flick him back to Mordor with his forefinger 😂
After a fire completely destroys huge sections of land, we will inevitably see one small green plant or flower regrow in that desolated area over time. Eventually life comes back. That is what Tom represents to me. I think that if Sauron had destroyed Middle Earth to the point of the disappearance of Tom, he would have eventually reappeared during such a time when nature would reclaim the land.
An excellent discussion and perspective of the 2 essential forces that can be contained in us all.
Sauron may take him in the short run, but Nature, Benevolence, and Time always wins in the end. Thanks, Ken.
I believe if it came down to a fight, Tom would prevail by causing Sauron to destroy himself using his own power using what I can only describe as metaphysical Judo strategies.
dumb af
I've always interpreted Bombadil as the personification of nature - he does not turn invisible just as if you put the ring on a branch, it would not turn invisible
I've thought that Bombadil restricts himself to the old forest as being Tolkien's message about nature being much smaller and limited as it was in the past - remember Treebeard once mentioned a squirrel could once jump from tree to tree from the sea to.. I don't remember where specifically, but far is my point.
Given this is the third age, that is what I understand the limiting factor due to the rise of dwarves and men and orcs even, cutting down nature to fuel their lives
Can't be the truth, but I like to think about it
Tom could very well be Chaos, as in the very embodiment of Ginnungagap the Norse belief of the time before anything.
He is the Eldest, he is fatherless and he was the First. He is neutral and cares not for the affairs of the world. He has no concept of good or evil, and not interfering, is chaos.
Thank the fucking Lord you're doing REAL LotR content again!
Tom is both the spirit and the music of the Ainur itself. He is a personification of the music that the Ainur used to sing the world into existence, which is why he is always singing and whistling. He is living music and thus represents the very spirit of the land. There you have it.
Sauron may as well try to fight sound itself.
My first stuffed animal as a kid (a dog, in case you were wondering) was named Tom Bombadil. I've always had an affection for the character and enjoy videos about him.
Tom is the only being that after all this time has stayed true to the Will of Illuvitar and so his power is great. But as soon as he forces his Will over others his powers would diminish. He said he is the master of none. He merely reunites things with the original song of Illuvitar and to everyone else it looks like magic. That's what I like to think.
I still believe that Tom is Eru in physical form living separately in the Old Forest observing how his Music is playing out in the wider world and how its being shaped. His behaviour is very similar to Eru himself. Separated and unconcerned about the death and destruction that both Dark Lords have levied on Arda. He is letting the music run its course. He is letting his children dance to the music. Now, Eru only intervened when pleaded by the Valar. The cost of his intervention? Arda forever changed - Numenor destroyed and Valinor removed completely from reach by mortal men. Gandalf made a comment during the Council that Tom may keep the ring if all the Free People of the Earth asked him. I firmly believe all the free people of earth would ask him to do so and Tom would keep it. However, the suggestion was never given a chance to be exected. My theory is that Gandalf feared that if Tom got involved then Arda would forever be changed yet again. The cost would be too great. Also, defeating Sauron had to be done by the people of earth in order for them to grow. Now, on a 1 on 1 fight between the two? Of course Tom would win. How many times has Sauron lost when he came out to fight on his own? Luthien kicked his ass and she's just a half elf/half maiar hybrid. How would Sauron fair against (not going for Eru this time) the embodiment of Arda, the embodiment of Nature or the Music of the Ainur (as the other theories claim)? It's hard to fathom that Luthien is more powerful than the embodiment of Arda, Nature or the Music of the Ainuir. Remember, the son's of Feanor caught and imprisoned Luthien. No one's every caught Tom - and we know, NO ONE! And I doubt Sauron would succeed even with his fancy ring on. We know Sauron has his sorcery. But Tom has his voice. Sauron's sorcery seeks out weaknesses to take advantage and he won't find one in Tom which would render him powerless to defeat him. Tom would just tell Sauron go back to Valinor and asked for the Valar's forgiveness and Sauron will probably obey. Okay. So Sauron uses his army of Orcs, Troll, Vampires and whatever foul creatures that his evil has summoned to fight Tom. Fine. What's stopping the embodiment of Arda, nature or the Music of the Ainur or as Goldberry describes him "The Master of wood, water, and hill" from summoning all the creatures of nature that exist in Arda - all the creatures that exist in Midldle Earth all the way to the continent of Arda where Valinor is located. Now, Goldbery mentioned "water" which means he probably could summon all the creatures in all the seas and oceans and rivers and lakes that Ulmo rules. Im comparing Tom to Eywa from the movie Avatar summoning all creatures to fight. So in the end Tom would triumph over Sauron. But what would be the cost to Arda if they fought it out? I guess we wil just have to speculate but we know when great powers battle - the land and people suffer. Tom will win but I doubt he will fight Sauron. The cost will be too great. So, He'll just relocate to Aman. He and Goldberyy will likely move to Ungoliath's old place seeing its available since she left abruplty breaking her lease to the Valars. They'll spruce it up and live happily ever after.
Keep in mind that Sauron with his One Ring was defeated 3 times in the Second Age. 1) around 1700 by Elves and Men in Eriador (Gil-galad, Elrond and Numenoreans); 2) in the 3260s by Ar-Pharazon and the host of Numenor; and 3) in the 3430s by The Last Alliance of Men and Elves. So I wonder, could Tom Bombadil withstand a Sauron who has not recovered the One Ring. But then, Tom would also have to defeat Sauron's hosts and the Nazgul. (I'm thinking of an alternate outcome where Frodo fails in his quest but the One is just lost again.)
We never know what Tom is capable of. He could be on a level with Melkor/Morgoth for all we know.
I like how you often reference what myths some characters might have originated in. I actually didn't know about some of these ones.
My theory is that Bombadil is the land itself incarnated into a physical body. Sort of a conscious Arda. Sauron can not destroy the land, only reshape it. In a fight, Bombadil could not be killed, but maybe forced to take another form. In the process, Sauron would expend a ton of energy and effort. But as the land is basically neutral, Sauron would likely choose to ignore Bombadil. This could explain how Bombadil can make the ring disappear, as it often did disappear and go missing under a mountain or a river. The land of can conceal treasure but not destroy it outright.
Tolkien himself said he didn't know exactly what Tom Bombadil was, and Tom and Goldberry didn't fit neatly into the stated cosmogony outlined in the Silmarillion. But Tolkien had put Bombadil into his previous writings, and obviously liked him (and possibly identified with him to some extent), so he put him into the Lord of the Rings without further explanation, leaving his exact nature ambiguous.
However, based on some of Tolkien's other writings, and the fact that he was trying to create a mythology for the British Isles, Bombadil seems to be analogous to a primordial spirit of the earth in mythology, basically created or arriving into Arda at its creation, an aspect of what Jesuit theologians would call God's primordial nature. Similarly, Goldberry, "the river woman's daughter," would be a nature spirit formed as the world evolved, an aspect of what the Jesuits would call God's consequent nature.
I like to think that tom is the embodiment of eru's final note he must have cast in the creation of the world.
Tom befriends Sauron and turns him into a bonsai tree hobbyist
Always thought of Tom as the embodiment of the song of the universe - so if in the end all was tainted (by Sauron or otherwise) he would either be gone or completely changed
I think Gandalf, while overwhelming wise, is sometimes wrong. I think he's wrong about Tom. Tom wasn't only able to be unaffected by the ring, but he affected the ring by his own will by making it disappear. I suspect that if he found himself in the situation, he could affect Sauron himself with his will as well.
0:14 um, what is Jack Black doing in Middle Earth?!
I might be totally wrong, but I always got the feeling that Tom Bombadil showed up in the beginning of LOTR because Tolkien was still figuring out what the story was going to be in Book 1. I don't know what Tolkien's writing process was like, but it is possible he did not have everything plotted out ahead of time.
The true answer is probably Tom is Tom. My theorist answer is he was created by the music in the discord of Melkor. Where some of the discord influenced foul things like the Watcher in the Water, the response of Eru in incorporation created good things. Thus, Tom would be in creation even before Melkor ever set foot in Arda.
Do you think Tom is a liar? Or do you think he does not know what he is? According to his own words he's eldest. Not eldest in Arda, those are not his words. He's eldest, I trust him on his word.
He could not have been created by Melkor. For that would mean Melkor is older than Tom, and Tom is eldest.
He could not have been created by Eru. For that would mean Eru is older than Tom, and Tom is eldest.
Tom was there before creation and will be there after it. To him the darkness of Melkor or Sauron are but fleeting things, for which he can't worry too much about.
Gamdalf and the elves can't phantom the power Tom has, and as a result underestimate it. Neither can they understand the perspective of a being older than time.
@@woodytimes9029 Ahh. Then Tom is Tom. For Tom is indeed older the Eru for Tom was in a literary sense created before Eru by Tolkein. Thus, he is eldest.
TB was a badass. Straight up. He didn't fight Sauron cause it was below his pay grade.
Tom is most likely an Ainur content to enjoy Arda without trying to shape it, unlike the Vala or Melkor. He doesn't intervene to save the four hobbits per se, but to save their stories. A victory by Sauron over everyone else would effectively end stories and thus Tom Bombadil's reason for remaining in Arda, to learn and recount interesting stories. So I can't imagine Tom and Sauron ever fighting.
My theory is that Tom is a Maia. Eru or one of the Valar would not have fallen against Sauron even when he had the one ring, and if he was a mortal he would not have had the power that he had, and the ring would have turned him invisible. But one of the Maiar could potentially be defeated by Sauron.
I'm no lore master, but I get the sense Tom is essentially a representation of life and nature. Similar to how the Germans in WWII were devastated by the Winter, Tom represents the awesome power alive in the core of existance, while also representing the random nature of its actions. In sum, whether or not Sauron could defeat Tom, I think is similar to whether humans could destroy life on Earth. We're no match for its awesome power if it were to turn against us, but its very nature keeps it from directing that power to destroy us. At least so far as we know. 😅
Well Sauron took part in the creation, Tom was just the first being in Arda, but there is not much evidence of his power over Sauron aside from the dubious fact that he was unamused by the Ring, which while a powerful asset, was in a realm of which Tom was great, and also that Sauron relied on many more abilities aside from mere corruption. Had Tom gone into Sammath-Naur, the Realm of Sauron's Power, it would be no contest.
@@taelorpickel2830 Your assessment makes sense, but I think the idea that Tom was just kind of left in the story, means he's not really supposed to make sense within the rules of the lore. Rather, that Tolkien didn't feel it necessary make him fit to the rules. He just seems to me, like a character who's the personification of existence. Good or bad, doesn't register. He's just a character that does stuff. Gods and elves and men come up with plans and have goals, but a hurricane is just a thing that happens. Though I suppose if my interpretation is correct, maybe he'd be a bit more chaotic, and less compassionate. Hard to say.
Tom Bombadil arrives at the Black Gates of Mordor:
Mouth of Sauron: "Master, Tom Bombadil is just outside!"
Sauron: "Bombadil??? G*ddamn!!!!!! Open up the rear gates. I'm ghostin'!!!!!!"
Tom is a lover, not a fighter. His natural defenses are incredible. Unfortunately, this has also resulted in nonchalance regarding the things that are lethal to other "lesser" beings until it is too late.
I do wonder what he'd be capable of if he'd had a mind for offens
He would sing more loudly and out of key …
@@whynottalklikeapirat and change his name to Bomb Tombadil...
I’d imagine that if this fight would also have to include his bride Goldberry so it would be a masterful double team against Sauron. The dark lord would have his hands full with Tom Bombadil alone, then throw Gold Berry in the mix it would be epic and the song that Tom would sing would be amazing! Win or loose this would be fascinating and fantastic.
The one ring has no power over tom because he has no ambition. He is content with his life as it is. I think the one ring needs someone with ambition to be able to corrupt them.
bingo!!!!!
Well done and so so timely!
I always wanted to know more about Goldberry's history as the poem does not say much concerning her at all.
If anything she is more of a mystery than Tom!
@@TheBrokenSword Well, 'river's daughter' could refer either to a powerful nature spirit tied to that river, or to one of the maiar under Ulmo, lord of all the waters, or to a child of a maiar under Ulmo (we know they can have children, thanks to Melian "the Maia"). Given Goldberry seemed to be associated with natural cycles and flowers as well as the river, she could have been a minor maia, child of one of Ulmo's and one of Yavanna's, or some such. Something like that world's equivalent of a naiad.
I would have to go back and read those chapters again with an eye to cues, to speculate further. :)
Hands down Tom.
Tom would whisper a few words, into Sauron's equivalent of ears, and the dark lord would quickly drown in tears, as he contemplates the horrific pain he's inflicted over his years.
I would bet all my gold coins on Tom inflicting an existential crisis on Sauron and then Tom would invite him over to smoke some Toby and drink some ale, that evening Tom would explain to Sauron the error of his ways and Sauron would finally see what he has become, suddenly unburdened by the shadow of Melkor Sauron would ask Tom what he himself could do to make up for his horrific past.
Tom would give him a flower seed and tell Sauron to take the flower back to Mordor and build a garden so that the flower can grow, Sauron would hurry back to Mordor and build this garden and plant the flower, he would heal the scarred land of Mordor so that the flower may flourish, he would build towers and walls to protect this flower from being trodden, and eventually Sauron would become so consumed by the act of protecting this flower he would wage war on all the world, his fear that Men, Elves or anything that walks might step on his flower he believes he has to wipe them out to secure the safety of his flower.
Eventually during this new war he would encounter Tom one more time, Tom would once again show Sauron the error of his ways and Sauron would be so distraught by the realization the shadow of Melkor had once again consumed him that Sauron would abandon middle Earth entirely, his body would turn to dust and his spirit would willingly enter the void in order to protect the world from himself.
I think of Tom Bombadil as the antithesis to Ungoliant.
Tom is an aftermath of Tolken's thought of adding flowers and joy to the pain and reality of this cruel world.
Sauron would very quickly scud him in the face with that mace. What would happen next though is an interesting prospect. Angry Tom might be a different thing altogether.
Angry Tom would be VERY interesting for sure! If it was even possible to make him angry!
I like to think that Tom would simply make the mace vanish before it could hit him like he made the One Ring vanish.
Another possibility is that it hits him, but it does nothing to his face. Sauron would just be astonished and Tom would laugh him in the face, which would make Sauron even angrier. He would try to hit Tom in the head again and again, until he is worn out or the mace destroyed. All the while Tom would still stand there and laugh. Afterwards Tom would stop laughing and just say: "You done now, boy?"
He'd never land a blow. His feet are too fast. His magic would be useless. Tom would just laugh at all of it.
"Tom Bombodil will stop being Tom"... This made me imagine him becoming like a different character - no longer cheerful, but vengeful instead. And I imagined him going on a quest to take down Sauron by himself. But even if he won, he'd never be the same again.
I think he's Eru in disguise as a personality omnipresently manifested. Since Eru is the Light (the father principle), and Bombadil claiming to be father-less.
Interesting! Fatherless child of.. Mother Earth perhaps.
The Broken Sword. This is very close to the old argument about the unstoppable force meeting the immovable object.
I believe what you said is correct. The source of Tom's power good and growing things. Sauron's comes from destroying good and growing things. If you have no power to fight, you lose. That's basically what happened to Saurom in the end.
Gandalf the white stated that he(the White Wizard) was the second most dangerous being after Sauron in Middle Earth. So Tom Bombadil was even weaker than Gandalf the white, he wasn't a match to the Dark Lord:
"Dangerous!" cried Gandalf. "And so am I, very dangerous: more dangerous than anything you will ever meet, *unless you are brought alive before the seat of the Dark Lord."*
[-The Two Towers, LoTR Book 3, Ch 5, The White Rider]
Being powerful and being dangerous could well be different things though :)
@The Official Nerdy Channel Well, nope! You are just ignoring what Gandalf said there. There is no any evidence to say Bombadil was not using his full power lol. It is quoted that Tom Bombadil(with the Ring) would fall after all others were defeated. He had no powers such likeness of the Ainur. If Sauron really attacked Tom Bombadil I don't think Tom could defend himself from the ragefull Dark Lord. Remember that Sauron is the one Maia who broke the power of Vala Ulmo in the first age and later defied the lightning strike of Manwe in Numenor in the second age. As we see we can say that our Dark Lord would crush Bombadil easily. As Tolkien noted, "that power was not in him(Bombadil)!"
Edit: Tom Bambadil was NOT a member of Ainur! Because he said he witnessed the coming of the first dark lord Melkor and other Valar down onto the Arda(earth). So Tom was always in the Arda he was not an Ainu spirit (Valar/Maiar).
@@_semih_ Then why could Tom make the One Ring vanish and appear again? Or why could he still see Frodo, after Frodo put on the One Ring in Tom's home? Or how did he know that all the treasure from the Barrow Whights would just have be in the sun and it would uncorrupt them. Or from where did he have the knowledge that the swords he gave to Frodo and the other hobbits would hurt the Nazgul, when he never left his own little pocket of Middle Earth. He does not get many visitors. Even Gandalf says he hasn't visited him for a some time now. So how did Tom gain that knowledge?
@@artoriasvoncarstein820 Its because Tom 100% was a spiritual being and not a mortal flesh. In the story of the creation of the Ents, Tolkien mentioned "the spirits of nature". These were lesser spirits that were created in Arda(the earth) after the music of Ainur. Personally I see Tom as the opposite to Ungoliant, both of these characters were without an actual origin. Ungoliant came from the Void and Bombadil were always on the Earth even before the coming of Ainur from the outer big Void. Tolkien wanted to keep their origin as a permanent secret and mystery in his story.
Bombadil knew that Arthedain swords that used to hurt WK because he was there during the war between Arnor and Angmar. Also that place was near to his home so he might explore and see all that treasure was there but he did not needed such stuff, he was not a warrior type character within the Legendarium.
Finally, I've read it somewhere that Tolkien created Tom Bambadil out of this idea of Middle Earth later he decided to add this interesting character into his Middle Earth story. So the purpose the character of Tom Bombadil is to be a literal mistery(and there are some other characters like that such as nameless things, ungoliant, the 3 high spirit that even terrorized all the Valar in the Lost Tales book etc). Thats why we still talk about Tolkien's works! Despite the death of its author, the Legendarium of the Middle Earth still alive and people still talking about it's mysteries even after 50+ years :)
Tom has no ego, and doesn't have a concept of "I win / you lose". His is the nuance of bravery, kindness, sacrifice, and appreciation....his was the art of encouragement others.
I feel like Tom is actually Eru Ilúvatar just experiencing his creation as an unassuming character. Not there to make any changes but to enjoy the free will of his creation, the ring to him was probably fascinating and fun for him to play around with. It would make sence that he is the oldest and has no father as well. (Should have read the comments first lol looks like I'm not alone.)
Yeah I agree.The ring was made by the will of his creation so he respects free will enough not to delete it. instead he created hobbits solely to to do thering deletion.
I’m convinced that Tolkien used Tom as a deus ex machina to get the hobbits out of the tree and the barrow, but then didn’t have any use for him thereafter, so he simply ignored him as a factor.
Tom was the first character that Tolkien ever imagined. That's why he was there from the beginning. He almost breaks the 4th wall when you realize he's not a normal character within this world. He's more powerful than Eru himself, because Tom existed outside of Tolkien's Arda fantasy.
I think Tolkien would say Eru exists outside of Arda himself, though he be called by another name...
@@Norbingel by the name of Tom ??
@@Jubiedanny47 hes probably saying eru = god
tom bombadill reminds me of winnie the pooh
Nice work dude thanks
He's a fascinating being that we just don't know enough about
Tom would not start the fight but he'd be a fierce opponent that Sauron would have no idea how to deal with
Would it be ok to know the first soundtrack you used in this video? It would be fun to play in the background of certain games.
Tom would never truly win as he wouldn't want to hurt sauron but I don't think sauron could do him any damage
I respect the premise you bring up. Yet it is also a strange despite still being thought provoking. Sauron is a Maiar spirit although having power he is not unlimited and able to be defeated. Tom is an unknown character. My thought is Tom Bombadil is a literary manifestation of Tolkien himself.
Team Bombadil ! who else?
What-if video idea for you to do:
What if Gandalf never fell at the Bridge of Khazad-dum and continued with the fellowship to Lothlorien and on forward?
I feel that Tom was Tolkien, himself, inserted into Middle Earth. And why not? He didn't seriously affect the plot except to defeat the barrow wight with a song, the exemplifications of Tolkien's philosophy, got to introduce himself and his wife to the Hobbits, played with the one ring, and was mentioned by the council as the first (as author) and last.
Tolkien based the story of Beren and Luthien on him and his wife.
How would the fight go? Very tragically for Tom and Goldberry. My fanfic-like concept is that Sauron, in possession of the One Ring, and having defeated the Wizards and everyone else, would finally turn his eyes towards his last nemesis. He would burn and poison the lands and rivers around the Old Forest. The first to sicken and then die would be Goldberry as the rivers and weather no longer allow her to be who she is (a spirit of the rivers and weather, mainly). Tom would be griefstricken and find little left in the world for himself. He would not be the carefree spirit of the forest he once was, and his powers would wane and then Sauron's forces would raise the Old Forest to the ground.
Tom's the bomb
I think your assessment is spot on. Bombadil is a parallel to or reflection of life and creation and I believe his power is based around that. The battle between him and Sauron, would, of course, be one of corruption and death vs creation and life. Sauron would not attack or attempt to harm Bombadil directly, assuming he could even do so, he would attack and corrupt life and nature. By destroying life and the good of creation, Bombadil would no longer have purpose and therefore would have nothing to fight for. He, perhaps, would even fade away, once again, as being that reflection of life, that which would no longer exist. Those are my thoughts, anyway. I could be completely wrong but it seems a reasonable outcome.
You ask the question without asking what death means for Tom,Just as youve discussed the differences in mortality of elves,Maiar from men death has different consequences for each so discussing a result would depend on how if even death would affect Tom, also it seems obvious Tom understands the song of Illuvatar in a much deeper way than Sauron so knows Sauron is absolutely no threat and is seeing events on a scale of time beyond all the other characters. What I'm getting at is the characters of the story have to have the sense of Jeopardy for the song to play out and it seems Tom is beyond this Jeopardy almost able to enjoy the song of Illuvater while all the others players are bound by the song.
Of course I can't know what Tolkien intended, if anything beyond including a character he liked.
I see Tom Bombadil as an intentional anomaly in the world Tolkien created - both the embodiment of what he saw as important independent of the world and an acknowledged wild-card within it. Importantly the Hobbits grow by their meeting with Tom, but also the efforts of the good would have come to nothing but for the multiple consequences of that wholly unexpected occurrence.
i Heard somewhere that there is a fan theory that Tom and Goldberry were Morgoth and Ungoliant living out their time on middle earth, i like this theory but I'm sure I also read that Morgoth will return in the end times so doubt it holds up as a theory, would be fascinating if it were true lol
Hello all I wanted to expand on thoughts I have about Tom Bombadil. Here is a post I shared previously: My own "head-canon" for the quandary that is Tom is as follows: Tom is Eru's first manifestation of his thought brought into existence. Eru had all these ideas about their creation swirling in his thoughts and decided to manifest one into being to explore the concept. An alpha prototype of what would come to be known as the Valar and Maiar. This is why Tom is "The Oldest" or "The First". I like to imagine the two of them conversing about all the possibilities of Eru's upcoming creation. Just the two of them in the Void bouncing ideas off each other. This is why the Ring has no power over Tom. That is who Tom is in my Adventures in Middle Earth Campaign and how I see them when I read Tolkien's Works. To take this a step further, I think it was actually Tom who created the Hobbits much as Aulë created the Dwarves. I think Eru's reaction to Aule's hidden creation was tempered a bit by dealing with Tom previously during the creation of Arda. I think the difference being, Tom requested this addition to the song before going forward with his creation. Eru allowed the Hobbits to awaken in the East around the same time as the Fathers of the Dwarves. Eru also told Tom his creation would need to be tempered by the Great Journey as well. He did allow Tom to weave into the song the final destination for his Children. After helping Eru, before the Valar and Maiar were brought into existence, Tom asked permission to go into Arda to finish his own dwelling and prepare a space for his Children. This Eru granted. Tom descended into what would be known as Eriador. With the help of Yavanna and her Maiar, Tom helped to shape the lands of Eriador and what would become known as the Shire, Siragalë. Uinen sent her daughter, Laurëpië or Golberry, to aid Tom and Yavanna in their efforts. She too fell in love with this land, then in turn with Tom, and she chose to remain to create a home with him. She also helped Tom shape Siragalë's streams and little rivers in preparation for his Children. This is my own take for my campaigns in Middle Earth, taken from MERP and my own thoughts. I think in MERP Tom is a Maiar of Yavanna's folk.