That’s something I genuinely love about JRR Tolkien. He had answers for all of this because he thought of all these answers before even writing the text as to why the only way to defeat Sauron was the path of most resistance
Not really. The eagles are a HUGE plot hole. :D Most of his "answers" are the highest risk, lowest chance of success solutions that nobody would have actually taken who had half a brain. From a fans point of view Tolkien seems overly brilliant and his world building skills were. His tactical brain sadly, like many writers was not so great. For example the idea that Sauron wouldn't expect them to try and destroy the ring at mount doom, when in fact Isildur and Elrond had literally almost done it before, was silly. He would have had that place guarded well if he was anywhere as clever as he was written to be. The idea that they shouldn't bring it to the west because the Valar wouldn't or couldn't help again..............silliness. The wizards, Gandalf among them were literally sent there for that purpose! It's great fantasy but it's just fantasy. A work of art, but not a work of intellect. :)
@@MrBottlecapBill i disagree. eagles can be chased and harrassed risking the fellowship. saruman we saw him controlling the skies which harrassed the fellowship so they have no choice but to lay low but eventually that is not enough.
Funnily enough, "In Deep Geek" launched a video two days ago that explained what Isildur really did in the book. His plan was to give away the ring to people who would know what to do of it because he knew he would eventually succomb to its influences and he got ambushed on the way to do so. The ring, having its own will, made sure to fall from his hands while he was fleeing the orks. Not only the west road would be watched by agents of Sauron, the ring's will could have made sure they never made it to the sea.
@@waltonsmith7210 In unfinished tales, when told by his son (as they're about to be killed by orcs) that he had to flee the Gladden Fields and give the One Ring to one of the owners of the three elven rings, he replied: "I knew that I must do so; but I feared the pain. Nor could I go without your leave. Forgive me, and my pride that has brought you to this doom."
@@maaderllin yeah he said that.Ive read that. Still, push hadnt come to shove. He had a noble intention. I dont thinkcanyone could willingly give up the ring. Even Bilbo only gave it up with a maia helping him. Gandakf had to put forth his power to augment Bilbo's will.
And I wonder if they would be able to find the straight road, having ring with them, in the first place. Who knows what might happen out on the open sea and beyond with that kind of evil in their keeping. Many things could go wrong, the road itself may reject them. Who knows
While I agree that it is clear the Valar were not going to intervene directly, I question that their reasons for doing so make sense. One of the reasons the War of Wrath was so massively destructive was that the Valar gave Morgoth over 500 years once he returned to Middle-Earth to build up his forces. Furthermore, once the Valar did act and the war was over, they (or perhaps more specifically Eönwë (yes, I know he's a maia)) made the mistake of assuming Sauron would voluntarily return to Valinor for judgement. So, they basically repeated the mistake they had made in releasing Melkor after having locked him up. I think you can make a solid argument that Sauron, being one of the Ainur, was something the other Ainur should have dealt with on their own. And if they had done so properly, there wouldn't even have been the One Ring to be concerned about. Unfortunately, the Valar didn't finish the job after the War of Wrath and left Sauron and at least one other maia, Durin's Bane, to cause more problems down the road.
I'm sure they received another scolding from Eru, like after the war of Wrath. Truthfully they were afraid they were going to destroy another continent after what happened, they did send 5 maia to contain Sauron, and he's only 1 weakened Maia.
@@celdur4635 Which is why I don't think the risk of wide-spread destruction was that great. Sauron and his forces hadn't near the power that Morgoth and his forced did in the War of Wrath.
@@istari0 Maybe, but if all you have is a big hammer, everything looks like nails. Look at the US when it messes with countries around the world, its never easy or small.
@@bugs1yb1ins I think that is one of the most interesting aspects of Tolkien's lore, its clear the Valar are very flawed and far from perfect, the only one that is omnious is Eru, which represents the catholic faith that everythinf has a purpose, but the Valar being compared to other gods like the greek and nordic represent they failure of the politeist gods, but Tolkien made his gods more naive than jerks like Zeus and Odin for example. But yeah, its a very interestinf dynamic to have a "perfect" almighty God surrounded by many flawed gods in the same universe.
I interpret Elrond's reasoning of "it must be shunned" was that as the obvious thing to do, Sauron would be on guard for it. His comment of the Elves fleeing west was how they had been reacting to the shadow; going in the complete opposite direction, so Sauron would be watching for them to repeat the pattern of taking the Ring as far from him as they could.
I suppose, but he wouldn't even know the Ring was in Rivendell for several more weeks, and it was months before the Nazgul appeared west of Anduin again, so what exactly was he going to do about it? he sent the Nazgul to begin with because they were the only ones he could trust with the mission so far from his direct influence.
There is a very trivial answer, no journey to Mordor no book. Luckily, Tolkien was not satisfied with this facetious answer and gave good reasons, why this would not work. You have elucidated these answers well. Thanks and keep up the good work.
You handled this really well, man I love the Council of Elrond chapters. Some of the best, love the history and tactics they discuss, man it is fantasy & good-writing par excellence on the part of Tolkien. Only his Rohan chapters are better in my opinion. By the time of the Elrond chapter I remember on my first read-through thinking; 'the west-route must be blocked, there is no way Sauron will allow that' and BAM! Tolkien confirms just that. Love his work. I'm of the mind that the Ring would have corrupted someone over in Aman all the faster than it might in Middle-Earth due to its Maia-connections. The worst thing would be for it to end up with Finarfin or Ingwe.
I would think the Valar, naive though they are, would be smart enough to have one of their number meet the ship at the shore and take the Ring directly without giving it a chance to corrupt anyone, and then immediately destroy it. I can't imagine a Maia could possibly make anything that would corrupt a Vala, or that Aule wouldn't be able to destroy anything one of his former pupils had made. The Valar may not be gods, but their power is god-like.
Catching your video months after it was posted, but I like the discussion! One of the reasons that I think was understated in the story but is much clearer in the background lore of the Silmarillion is that the Ring is fundamentally of Middle Earth, and Valinor has been separated from Middle Earth in order to keep it separate and sacred away from Morgoth’s influence. Because Morgoth poured so much of his own divine power into the mundane world of Middle Earth, he made it his “ring.” Sauron similarly wanted to wield more power in ME and used the ring to do so. But it’s a perversion of divine power to use it to dominate changeable ME. Similarly, the reason why the Numenoreans were committing such a taboo by assaulting Valinor is because they were wanting to bring what is unchanging to a changeable world. Deathless Numenoreans would be terrifying and would change the nature of ME forever! So perhaps the Ring coming to Valinor would do the opposite-make its perversion ever-green, extend its influence and mix the mundanity of ME with the divine power of the Valar. The taint of Morgoth would in a sense be hallowed by having a portion of his malice brought into a timeless eternal realm that was separated solely to get away from that taint.
Thought provoking as usual 👍 a couple of ideas: those at the Council also have to make a decision based on the best information and advice they have, which is probably mainly from Elrond and Gandalf. Gandalf in particular is likely to know the mind of the Valar on this, due to his mission. Secondly, in the end the ring isn't just destroyed, it is 'unmade' and there is a subtle difference; it can only be unmade in the place it was forged. Finally, if Eru Iluvatar knows all things, then providence may also be at play. The quest has many ripple effects including the re-establishment of the line of Kings and the ushering in of the age of men.
On the destruction of Ring by Aule in Valinor - maybe we could draw parallel to the Silmarills debate after destruction of the trees. Valar ask Feanor to break Silmarills. He refuses, and rest is the history of the first age. Lets put aside for the moment the question of free will, because Valars did not want to force Feanor to do it against his free will. Questions is maybe Valars could not break the Silmarills even if they wanted. Maybe some objects can be destroyed only by its makers?
I think the reason not to take the ring to Valinor is the Lords of the West won’t take it but why? I suggest two reasons firstly the Prophecy of Mandos / the curse of the Noldor; the ring is tied to this curse. Celebrimbor produced the three rings so that the elves will have dominions east of the sea. Celebrimbor is a Noldorin prince of the house of Fëanor and subject to the prophecy which includes: “And those [Noldor] that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after.” The curse of the Noldor cannot end until all the dominions of the Elves have failed and ended and this cannot happen until the ring is destroyed. When Galadriel says that she will diminish and go into the West, she has accepted the loss of her dominion and sees that the prophecy is complete and by rejecting the offer of the ring found redemption so that she can be accepted in Valinor. Galadriel has chosen what is right she has fought the long defeat and accepted her fate and redemption. The second reason is that the destruction of the ring allows the men and more specifically the men of Númenor to redeem themselves after their fall and to take on the responsibility of the stewardship of Middle earth. The destruction of the ring brings about the defeat of Sauron the architect of the fall of Numenor, the departure of the firstborn and makes men responsible for their own fate and that of Middle Earth. The destruction of the ring and the birth of the new age is the responsibility of Mortals because it brings about the age of Mortals.
There are so many reasons why bringing the Ring to Valinor is a really bad idea. First of all, who would do that? Remember Frodo only gets to go to the Undying Lands because of what he did to get the Ring destroyed, so he couldn't do it. By the time of the Council of Elrond, Bilbo was already experiencing "ring withdrawal." I don't see him being trusted to do it. That means it has to be an immortal who has the right to sail to the Undying Lands. That means one of them must claim the Ring and bear it. By all accounts, they would all get corrupted and the Ring would never make it's way to Valinor. I think Joshua (that's your name, right?) was right about the Valar being too holy to purposely allow something so evil to enter into their realm, especially after what happen with Melkor and Ungoliant. Honestly, I don't see Cirdan allowing anyone to enter Mithlond with the Ring. I am sure he would forbid it. He remembered the origin of the Rings of Power as well as Elrond, Galadriel and Celeborn did.
I think primarily, the reason this wouldn't happen is that the Ring, for one reason or another, would never make it to Valinor i.e. the Ring would ensure that it doesn't make it there (as many have already explained in the comments). But secondly, I also personally think that the Valar would refuse the Ring. The Valar would of course remember what happened with the Simarils and the IMMENSE evil that came to be because of them. They are aware of the Ring and how evil it is and they want no part of it! So they send some Maia over to Middle-earth and let them deal with it.
Are there evil things living in the sea that are in league with Sauron? Or does Sauron have any power to influence the weather (and in this case the weather outside of Mordor)? Because a shipwreck would be a good way to royally mess up this plan.
He did manage to send a storm to destroy Arvedui's ship, but that was very near the shore of Middle-earth, and he had the witch-king nearby. I'm not sure how he'd even know where the Ring was since it took some time for the Nazgul to return after they were "killed" (unhoused and unhorsed) at the ford.
If they even made it to Valinor, enchanted by the will of Eru, the Blessed Land itself might just refuse to take it. The Ring and Ringbearer might just suffer a fate similar to that of Ar-Pharazon and those of his troops who stepped onto Aman's shores with him, buried until the end of time. And although he couldn't use the power he had invested in the Ring, Sauron's power in total would remain undiminished.
From a practical viewpoint, sending the Ring to Valinor only creates another problem, namely, if you do this you have no story and hence, no book. To have Frodo go all the way to Rivendell with the Nazgul in hot pursuit, only to have the Council decide to send the Ring over the sea would have been the biggest anti-climax in all of literature. When Gandalf discovered the true nature of the Ring, he could have had the hobbits ride to the Havens, which are quite close to the Shire, long before the Nazgul came, dump the Ring on the next ship and story over. Aule would destroy the Ring and that would be the end of it. Easy, but no room for heroic deeds.
Valinor does take some level of responsibility by sending the wizards, since Sauron is from their society, but they're also extremely wary of "helicopter parenting" Middle Earth since the disasters of Feanor and Numenor. The idea that they would simply refuse to take the Ring is probably the right one, though not from any fear of corruption from someone like Sauron. Especially if we imagine there are any Feanorian objects still in Valinor: Objects tainted directly by Morgoth would seem far more dangerous. But they would refuse to admit the Ring because it would undermine the moral evolution of the Children of Iluvatar.
Another thought is that Valinor is not necessary a safe place anyway. Just for one example, Melkor and Ungoliant were able to sneak in undetected and destroy the Two Trees while nobody was looking. They should have been the last pair to be able to sneak, and the Trees should have been the last places left unprotected. Maybe Valinor is far too optimistic a place to keep the Ring safe.
I imagine that like you said, the Valar would not even let it in. Anyone who would try to enter would not be able to find the straight path. So it's a moot point
Nice one. Bombadil, even if he did guard it, would be overcome eventually. As well, I wouldn't really call Feanor evil personally, he had good reason to be pissed and swear the oath. The KinSlaying was bad though, sure, but perhaps understandable. He was kind of like a dark elf, a bit bad, but bad ass for sure too...I personally think the way he died/ spirit of fire/ was a result of not only his fiery anger and will plus being a smith, but also a kind of merger in spirit with his death by GothMog, almost like a transmogrification. This would be an interesting talk, I've never seen it tackled very deeply.
As I recall (it's been a spell since I last read the books), Bombadil was completely unaffected by the ring when Frodo gave it to him; and at the Council of Elrond, someone (Gandalf?) mentions that Bombadil would probably forget about it and it would wind up lost again. So it's not that Bombadil would be enslaved by it, but Bombadil would simply be a totally unreliable guardian for it.
@@TheDarthbinky Between Gandalf and Elrond they say both: that Bombadil would be careless (because he wouldn't understand the danger) and therefore a poor choice of guardian, and that even Bombadil doesn't have the power to resist the full might of Mordor.
I think the strongest argument against sending it to Valinor is the ban on sending something tainted and evil to a sacred place. Id be like " Hey Valar, this renegade is one of YOUR people and YOUR responsibility. Even if Sauron had spies in the area, there was certainly no agents with power or numbers to stop an armed escort west into Eriador from Rivendell. I dont think orcs in the North woud be capable of that, nor do I think these orcs were directly under Sauron's service, maybe defacto they are but I doubt they even know that. I do have two alternatives. Send it across the Sea, not to Valinor but to the Americas because we know this landmass exists by now. The hostility of Ulmo's seas would hamper any of Morgoth's servants crossing it. Second, since the eagles can pass into the " upper airs" assumedly poetic speach for space, perhaps the eagles could place it in a sustained orbit about the world or even fling it into space. It could also be chucked into the void but theres someone in there we really dont want to get it.
This is great analysis! RUclips recommended some of your videos and I really like how you think through these problems. A question: if the Ring had gone West and not been able to be destroyed is it possible Sauron could've made it West and gotten the Ring back?
I've always thought this was a rare weak point in Tolkien's plotting. Sure, Elves or Maiar might be corruptible, but I can't imagine a Maia, even Sauron, could possibly make anything that could corrupt a Vala - their power and strength of will is infinitely beyond any lesser being. As for "it's our problem to deal with," that might be persuasive if it had actually been made by Men or Elves, but it was made by a renegade FROM Valinor, so to my mind that makes it more the Valar's problem than one for the people of Middle-earth. I understand why they didn't want to come to Middle-earth themselves, but that's not what's being asked, and Aule breaking the Ring in Valinor would hardly be likely to cause the same sort of cataclysm in Middle-earth that the direct intervention of the Valar there had caused. I'm also not convinced that the road west would have been particularly dangerous IF they had left as soon as Frodo was well enough to travel. We're told that the Nazgul would take some time to make their way back to Mordor unhorsed and unbodied, so it was probably weeks before Sauron had any idea the Ring had reached Rivendell. Given how long it was - more than four months - before the Nazgul reappeared west of Anduin, it seems unlikely to me that Sauron would have been able to organize an effort to find the Ring before it could be gotten to the Grey Havens - especially given that for this journey, unlike the attempt to sneak into Mordor, a small company of Elven warriors like Glorfindel going to the Havens, possibly also accompanied by a small troop of Dunedain rangers, would have been very useful while not seeming all that out of the ordinary. Was there ANY danger? Of course. But more than taking the Ring through the orc-infested Misty Mountains, directly past Saruman and Dol Guldur, and into Mordor itself? It seems to me that no matter how unexpected it was, that was still orders of magnitude more risky than taking the westward road. I think for this one we just have to be satisfied with the answer that it would have been a short and boring book if they'd taken that road. Edit: after more thought I can think of one story internal reason that I can't find a flaw with: the Valar knew (as Gandalf did) that no one would ever be able to give up the Ring to be destroyed voluntarily, so if Frodo or someone else did get it there, they would have to take it from that bearer by force, which, as Gandalf says, would break the bearer, and that would violate the Valar's sacred duty to respect the free will of the Children of Illuvatar. Gandalf and Elrond knew that it would require an act of providence, a miracle, for the Ring to be destroyed, and Eru might grant that providence if someone had the strength of will to take the Ring to Mount Doom, but might be less disposed to do so if they took what appeared to be the easy way out. Of course that still means that Gandalf and Elrond weren't being entirely honest at the council - but of course we knew that. But they were at least being honest in saying the task was appointed to Frodo, and not to the rest of them or to the Valar.
I never bought into “the Ring belongs to Middle Earth” theory because Sauron was a Maia and therefore one of the lesser Valor. He could not have created the Ring without that power so it really should have been the responsibility of the Valor to deal with one of their own.
Not really. The Ring is the result of Sauron messing with Celebrimbor. And Celebrimbor being in Eregion at all is a result of his refusal to accept Valar's pardon at the end of the First Age. Valar already offered Elves a way to avoid this whole mess. But enough of them didn't listen and decided to continue to do their thing.
I can't agree with that. That's how I see it: One Ring is physical manifestation of corruption that is part of Middle-Earth, inflicted by Morgoth and Sauron. Thus, it is not of Valinor nor even of Ainur. It is unically bonded with mortal land and Saurons machinations specificaly in Middle-Earth
@@CruelDwarf not the one ring. The One was made by Sauron himself, without Elven interference. And remember as well that the whole ring thing was a big scam, Celebimbor didn't knew that Anatar was Sauron. Finally, Sauron still being an actor on middle earth was the result of the Valar not imprisioning him in the war of the wrath, although he was probably the second-highest ranked in Thangorodrim.
I agree. I don’t get the argument that taking it West would’ve been “cowardly”. As you said, the thing that made it is literally a Maia, a creature of the west. I can buy all the other reasons why going west was a bad idea, but not that particular one.
Isildur realized that the Ring was too powerful for him to use, and he said that it should go to the keepers of the Three. As for Aragorn, he should be much weaker than Isildur after the slow withdrawal of the Numenoreans' gifts, making each generation weaker than the previous one. But several people, including Elrond, noted that Aragorn was the greatest of all the chieftains of the Dunedain, indeed, the greatest since Elendil. Would that make him strong enough to use the One? Legolas thought so. But, of course, Legolas isn't one of the wise. At the council before the march on Mordor, Gandalf seemed to think so too.
I think it was more that Gandalf thought Aragorn taking the Ring was enough of a threat for Sauron to sit up and tale notice. Enough to frighten Sauron and enough to be likely to actually master it are two different things.
Could it also be that the existence of the ring is due to the failures of Celebrimbor and Isildur, it is the fault of elves and men that the ring still exists not the fault of the valar (which was the case with Morgoth). Both races need to take responsibility for what they (unintentionally) helped to create.
In my opinion it is the valar who are shirking their responsibility. They let Sauron escape at the end of the first age, together with at least one balrog and several dragons. They were supposed to guard all of Arda, not only Valinor, and they are doing a pretty bad job when it comes to Middleearth.
@@kristianh.pedersen2 Nope.They are Gods in the vein of the Greek or Norse Gods. They are not omnipotent, they are singular entities that are not Gods (Big G). In the setting there is One GOD and he works in mysterious ways ( the standard excuse for Yahweh/ Allah whatevers utter imcompetence). Not only are they not omnipotent they expicitly do not know (except maybe Mandos) Eru's entire plan. To utterly exterminate all of Morgoths forces/allies would have (even if possible) required pretty much smashing up Arda and starting again. Which they will not / cannot do. Its the exact same reason why the Silmarils remain lost, after all there is real reason why Ulmo or Osse couldnt just go looking for the one Maglor dumped in the sea (you would think that one would be an easy find). They try to be hands off because hands on causes massive and irrepairable damage to Arda.
@@jamesmaybrick2001 Exactly. It is Sauron's pride and hate that prevented him from facing judgement in the ring of doom after the war of wrath. He showed no contrition and the Valar are not responsible for that nor are they responsible for policing the world and ordering it to its own good, that would have been contrary to Tolkien's concept of good and evil and free will. Edit: or one could say it was the one moment Sauron actually was remorseful, but pride, envy, hate was stronger it seems.
@@maxion5109 It's not clear that he was ever truly repentant, as opposed to being sorry he was on the losing side. I think Tolkien deliberately left that unclear, we can never truly understand the hearts and minds of beings like Maiar and Valar.
I agree it is part of middle earth, and needs to be handled on middle earth. But the Valar also ordered Sauron to return to stand judgment. And what better bait to get him to return to Valinor than the one ring?
I always assumed it was for the reason you discuss about 14 min into the vid - it's all about the Valar letting Middle Earth handle its own affairs, because the last time they intervened in a major way, Beleriand was destroyed. So let the men and hobbitses and dwarves and elves figure it out, with the guiding hand of the Istari to gently lead them in the best direction. Also, I don't remember you mentioning it (edit: rewatching and yeah you do talk about it) but taking the ring to the West doesn't really eliminate the problem. Sauron still exists, and in the books, he's resumed physical form; as long as the ring exists, Sauron exists. Could the Ainur destroy the ring themselves? Presumably but we'll never know (and you briefly touch on it, but I wonder if Aule is capable of destroying things? He's a "creator god", not a "destroyer god"... hmmm....); and would they really be keen to destroy one of their own? They didn't permanently destroy Morgoth (if they even could), seems unlikely they'd do that to Sauron either.
It's a fair point regarding allegiance among Ainur, though Morgoth was actually "executed" by Manwe and Mandos after the War of Wrath. Sorry I don't have the source rn, I think I saw the quote on screen in a Red Book video, and its from Morgoth's Ring
@@TolkienLorePodcast More or less the same thing, isn't it? I don't think it possible for any of them to be destroyed - in fact, I don't think the Valar can (or would) _destroy_ the feä of an Elf or Man. Likewise destroying the Ring wouldn't destroy Sauron, just render him powerless. Spirits, souls in our terms, are created by Eru and can only be destroyed by Eru. But thrusting Morgoth into the Outer Void was essentially the same thing as executing a Man.
I have wondered if Elrond's distinction between "they who dwell beyond the Sea" and "us who still dwell here" is the closest the text comes directly to explaining the question about the Eagles' lack of participation in the Fellowship. If Elrond counts the Eagles in the former and not the latter group, then his argument here would also count as an argument not to seek help from the Eagles. Thoughts?
The Eagles are servants of Manwe so that would make sense, but more importantly how do you get a message to the Eagles in the first place? They come to the other characters, not the other way round.
@@TolkienLorePodcast, you make a good point that the Eagles do generally initiate contact. I guess the one contemporary (to LOTR) exception is Radagast.
there is also a question on who would take the ring to Valinor, even if the Valar and Maiar would resist it, whoever takes it likely will be corrupted and then the ring would have to be taken from him/her by force.
Why is a rogue maia from Valinor middle earth's problem? Seems to me the Valar have a responsibility to police one of their own directly. Also, future Valar-led wars against Sauron would never be as cataclysmic as those waged against Morgoth, who had winged dragons and balrogs etc. He'd be swept away militarily.
It's not clear to me that either had any desire to work with Sauron. I think they were more like useful distractions for him. In the Silmarillion Balrogs and dragons never took orders from anyone but Morgoth himself - Sauron had orcs, werewolves, and other evil things to serve him, but never Balrogs or dragons.
Because Manwe and Varda would have sent the bearer right back to Middle Earth (it would be the bearer's job to deal with it, not the Valar's). Tolkien explicitly said so. In the end, I think Tolkien saw it as a matter of agency (responsibility, if you prefer). See the Book of Jonah on attempts to run away from responsibility.
I'm pretty sure Sauron would have enough armies to overwhelm them already, destroying the ring was the only way to win the war, without relying on Hannibal-like victories by some general, against overwhelming odds in this war, while there are still elves in the world. And then hoping in the hundreds or thousands of years to come that Sauron would not regroup and come back as you said.
Being that the ring is part of sauron but also its own creature. It would have chosen to not go west and hop on the trip back to its master with one of his orcs or it would have corrupted someone in valinor then called its master west. Let us not forget the eye in the sky would have noticed someone taking a ship on the straight road.
If the Ring had ended up in Valinor, I don't it would have been there any longer than it took Aulë to destroy it. I don't think any of the Valar could have been corrupted by the Ring as they were all inherently more powerful than Sauron and I also believe Aulë would definitely find a way to destroy it. As far as Sauron goes, I don't know that he would know how to take the straight path and even if he did, he would have been marching into a realm of his enemies, some of whom were much more powerful than him. Also, ships of elves had been sailing into the West for a long time; in and of itself one more is not noticeable.
The only reason I feel that durect action resulted in apocaplypses is because the valar and even eru let things get that far. Even eru could have just wiped out melkor at the first declartion and avoided everything that happened afterward
All good points. Elrond's "coward's way" argument is silly and prideful. If to save the world you need to be meek and cowardly, so be it. That would be the wise thought in that moment. That being said, the other logic to take it to Doom were genuinely good enough to move them in that direction.
Ungoliant counts too. She was evil as Morgoth himself. And not all the Maiar are proof against corruption. Think of Osse. He was already tempted by Melkor once, and if it wasn't for Undine, his wife, he might have fallen ages ago. And the place is full of elves. Maybe the mere presence of the Ring spurs the Teleri to take vengence on the Noldor. All it needs is one hothead with a bow behind a tree, and ...
I've always disliked the idea of the Valar refusing to directly help against Sauron. He is a mair, one of their own. As such he is absolutely their responsibility. To allow him to cause so much death and destruction among lesser beings who have no chance against him is tough for me to swallow. It is completely ludicrous that the Valar would expect the people of middle earth to stand against a divine being who is basically a minor deity/rogue angel. That seems cruel and uncaring on their part. Logic would dictate that Aule would immediately enter Middle Earth and grab Sauron, who is his servant and direct responsibility, by the ear and drag him back to Valinor in chains.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Well, yes actually. Not directly but in a societal sense. Where I live if an adult human intentionally harms an animal like a dog or a horse, other hunans generally arrest him, try him and hold him accountable. Without humans to protect them animals like dogs and horses otherwise don't have the capacity to defend themselves against cruel humans, who have all the power in that dynamic. Other humans must take srewardship of those animals and protect them. In the case of Sauron, he is in a sense a child or at least a servant of the Valar and therefore their responsibility. As one of the Ainur he is vastly more powerful than Elves and Men, who can't destroy him and generally cannot do much to resist him aside from temporarily holding him at bay from time to time, at the cost of great suffering. The Valar have supposedly dedicated their existence to being stewards and protectors of Arda and its people. To sit back idly and let one of their own wayward Maia do as he pleases to warp Illuvatar's creation, dominate his children and do so much harm in the process seems very much against everything they supposedly stand for.
I agree. I also think the counter argument is they are directly help against Sauron. They sent five Istari to counter the power of Sauron. Then even sent Gandalf back when his physical body is destroyed in the fight with the balrog. So they’re helping and pretty directly. But they’re not fighting the whole fight.
I remember being asked, "Why didn't Gandalf call one of the great eagles, pass the ring off to them, and let them drop it directly into Mt. Doom?" I believe that the answer was that the eagles had a war going within their nation and no one could be spared for the task, though it seems like a pretty important job to pass up, no matter how busy you are or what else is at stake.
The reason was actually that it wouldn’t work. It would draw Sauron’s eye to the eagle and with all his will and strength directed, the eagle would be overtaken by fel beasts and the ring lost. The fellowships mission is one of stealth. They decided their best shot was to be sneaky and do something unexpected to avoid a direct confrontation, which they did not have the strength to handle.
@@alandworsky8926 Thanks for the response. As I watched more of the videos I saw the disparate parts of you point given as answers to a variety of perspectives and ideas. This is a really thorough and thoughtful channel, in many respects, and I'm still working my way through all the content.
@@alandworsky8926 it would only work at all if there were a diversion, such as Aragorn’s major assault on the Black Gate, which would still require time to Mass the forces needed for the diversion.
Can you trust an eagle with the Ring? They seem to be intelligent beings, and not the direct servants of Manwe we meet in the Silmarillion. And yes, also, Sauron must surely know about the eagles and have some plan for keeping them out of Mordor. Remember that they show up before the Black Gate during the battle but don't try to actually fly into Mordor until after the Ring has been destroyed. Also, everyone seems to forget that they can't carry a person an infinite distance - from Orthanc to Edoras or Moria to Lorien seems to be about the limit. They'd still have to do the trip in a series of stages, resting on the ground in between, and they'd be highly visible the whole way. (They may not have even flown all the way out of Mordor with Frodo and Same in one hop, all that was really needed at that moment was to get them off the erupting volcano and a few miles away.)
Taking the Ring to an entire landmass of powerful, angelic beings that can't guarantee they wouldn't be tempted by it, seems like a bad idea. I think Manwe, Varda, and Tulkas would be immune at least, but Aule is at heart curious and tends to get carried away. As many Maiar would be tempted as wouldn't. Osse? He is certainly going to be tempted.
I can't imagine any mere Maia could make an object that could sway the will of a Vala, or that Aule couldn't destroy. Only Morgoth could have done that. But it could cause dissent among the Maiar and Elves and bring strife to a place that was supposed to be entirely free from it.
I agree, with Mr. Waxman. There is no reason the Valar could not destroy the ring and may in truth be more responsible for it than any race in Middle-earth, since it was created by an Ainur and empowered with divine essence. The Noldor in Eriador had no part in its making, as Sauron forged the ring in secret.
Nah, Noldor were directly involved in this whole mess. Firstly, The Ring is just another echo of Feanor's Oath, because the whole story with Annatar is a giant fuck up on the part of Celebrimbor and Elves of Eregion (who were predominantly Noldor). Everything that progeny of Feanor or people who accept their leadership does inevitably ends badly. An universal pardon of sort was granted to every Noldor at the end of the First Age, Celebrimbor and his pals refused it and decided to continue to mess with forces that they have little understanding of and so gave Sauron the opportunity to make another mess. Without 'regular' rings made by Elves, Sauron have no reason to create the One. So this is basically it: whole Ring business is another fault of Feanor's brood. As almost everything else in this particular part of the world.
@@istari0 I;m not sure that Valar have any specific responsibility over Sauron. It is what people often misunderstand about Tolkien cosmology/theology. Ainur aren't Gods, they do not have authority and do not rule/govern the world, they aren't enforcers for Eru. Basically all failures of Valar stem from the fact that they intervene in things that they shouldn't and it is not that they do not do enough, they actually do way too much.
The Valar are not responsible for policing the world and ordering it to its own good, that would have been contrary to Tolkien's concept of good and evil and free will. But all evil that has happened ultimately stems from Melkor's rebellion. He's the prime mover of evil in creation, even though he was not evil to begin with. It's a progression. And we also wouldn't have a story without it.
That part where Frodo offers it to both Gandalf and then, later, Galadriel, always confused me. Even if they had accepted his offer, I doubt he would have been able to give it up.
While it took some encouragement, both Bilbo and Sam gave up the ring. And if either Gandalf or Galadriel had decided to take Frodo up on his offer, it's not like Frodo could have stopped them if he changed his mind.
Frodo might or might not have been able to give up the Ring to Gandalf or Galadriel, but when he made those offers, he had not had the Ring as long, had not yet attracted Sauron's notice on Amon Hen, and above all was not standing right inside Sammath Naur on the slopes of Orodruin.
I think the Valor would send it back to Middle Earth with their lower elves to give it back to Elrond or Galadriel. I have a hard time believing that the Valar would be open to accepting something that is so corrupting and destructive on their land to destroy their way of life. I mean, I could be wrong. They could accept it and try to destroy it or lock it up somewhere but the spirit of Sauron would still be summoning the Easterlings, men of the south and black corsair ships and nothing would change. Giving it to the Valar would probably be more detrimental to Middle - Earth because there would be no way to kill Sauron and keep him from summoning Orcs, trolls and other creatures of shadow. It would just keep going and going until all the armies of men were spent.
I can't imagine Aule couldn't destroy anything one of his pupils had made. Likewise they could easily have broken the Silmarils open if they'd wanted - but the Silmarils weren't theirs to destroy, and they refused to compel Feanor to hand them over. Likewise, it's pretty clear to me that anyone who brought the Ring to Valinor would in the end be unwilling to hand it over to be destroyed (just as Frodo couldn't bring himself to destroy it in the end), and the Valar would refuse to take it by force, so the only alternative would be to send it back to Middle-earth. Something that evil certainly couldn't be permitted to stay in Valinor.
Hold on. Valinor won't accept it. They don't want to throw it into the sea because Sauron could still get it eventually. Why not sail it beyond the undying border and throw it in the ocean before the shores of Valinor where Sauron can never reach it?
I still think I could make a case to Aule : yo, your boy has been getting up to some messed up antics, he learned a lot of skills from you, after all. Can you destory this ring with your mighty power, please? I get the reasoning behind why that cant be done, but it still doesnt seem entirely fair that the alternative includes torturing poor Frodo.
After some musing above, the conclusion I've come to is that it isn't that the Valar wouldn't take it if freely offered, or would be tempted by it, or couldn't destroy it, it's that they knew anyone who brought it there would (like Frodo at Mount Doom) at the end be overcome by it and unable to give it up to be destroyed, and the only way they could take it to destroy it would be to take it from the bearer by force, but that would violate their sacred trust to respect the free will of the Children of Illuvatar. Even Gandalf knew that if he took the Ring, even just to keep it safe, he would never be able to give it up again.
Melkor was held in Valinor, and he was rather evil... The elves went West during the story, so it was possible to go West. The real answer is the story wouldn't happen if they took this obvious choice.
When Isildur failed to destroy the RING after ALL the sacrifices made, it became Middle Earth's problem and ALL beings still left will have to work together, and if so, Eru would grace them enough to get the task done. #stop being selfish!
Taking the ring west wouldnt be so difficult. 5 of the nine where unhorsed, the other 4 where spread thin, and Gandalf took on the 9 unupgraded and they lost. As for northern orcs, most of them where destroyied in the War of 5 armies, and the elves where traveling that path, no biggie. They could even send the company south, as a decoy, while Frodo gone West with Glorfindel, Gandalf and a bunch of elves. The problems would start on the boat. Lots of powerful people in a confined space with an Artifact of Doom tempting them. It would be less of an epic adventure and more of a psychological thriller. And I bet that the ship would never make to Valinor, the ring corrupting everyone as they start to backstab each other.
Aule trained Sauron, he enabled him - he is responsible for undoing the mess - end of story - The One Ring goes back and it is unforged by him End Of Story - Cirdan! UPS Package for Aule in Valinor - tuit suite!!
Could the influence of the one ring corrupt one of the other Valar? Together they might be wise enough to not fall for it. They won't be always together. Sauron and Melkor poured a lot of power into their works of evil. The ring might like a new fresh power. If the ring tried to go there, it really shouldn't.
Eternity is a long time. Perhaps Eru himself would become corrupted over a millennia. Eru likely sees himself as being uncoruptable so he would probably not change or destroy the ring to make a statement.
Another interesting thought: couldn't the Valar put the Ring into the same vault in the Halls of Mandos where they kept Melkor? Melkor couldn't escape, he only got out because They let him out. If the most powerfull being in Ea can't get out, Sauron couldn't get in even if he'd be able to muster enough strength to assault Valinor
@@TolkienLorePodcast Yeah, also, from simply a narrative standpoint, we wouldn't have a compelling story. I think there is a danger in over-analyzing and overtheorizing Tolkien's works especially from a plot point perspective and assessing if it holds up purely logically. It's completely contrary to how wer're supposed to think and feel about these stories. It's more about how does it move you emotionally and what delight does it give you rather than theory and mechanical worldbuilding. On the intellectual side i find that the abstractions and the metaphysical implications are the most interesting, as to what kind of representations we're dealing with in Tolkien's imagination derived from the primary to his secondary world.
@@maxion5109 - To paraphrase Tolkien, the Valar and Eru are dangerous machines. Having Manwë in the form of a eagle (invincible to orc arrows and flying Nazgûl, as well as the corrupting influence of the One Ring makes almost as poor (and non-Catholic) of a story as getting out the skyhooks, pulleys, and ropes and lowering Eru down in a basket to simply vanish the One Ring and Sauron from Middle Earth.
I think your logic is sound. They were looking for the most direct method of destruction. Valinor wasn't as direct as Mordor simply because they risked interception.
The Valar learned by experience that they couldn't overcome evil by force. First time they tried the wrecked Arda and destroyed the pillars and the lamps. But failed. The second time they sent Ëonwe and destroyed Beleriand. The third time they sent Frodo. Evil had to be overcome by a moral act: by faith, hope, and pity.
I don't think it was the Valar who chose Frodo. But they did send the Istari - not to pit their strength against Sauron, but to inspire, advise, and assist the free peoples.
It's such an odd question. Where's the conflict that a story demands in fobbing off the ring on Valinor? It a High Noon scenario and you have to man up, dare boldly and take your place in the arena. How are the gods to respect the easy way out? Where's the honor and dignity in that?
The one thing that has always seemed odd to me was how Elrond, who has never been in the West, knows they "would not receive it" & Glorfindel, who has, thinks that is a possible solution.
@@TolkienLorePodcast very true. There is also the bit where the Valar’s brilliant plan to save Middle Earth involved forcing his parents to permanently abandon him to the mercy of infamous murderers. Kinda reasonable that he’s loathe to ask them for help before having at least tried to solve this problem themselves. Besides, Elrond is living proof that “insurmountable odds” are usually not in fact so insurmountable. He only exists because of people daring impossible odds and overcoming them “as little might be thought”.
One would think that the Istari would have been briefed by Manwë if the Valar did not consider bringing the One Ring back to Valinor to be destroyed acceptable (presumably Gandalf informed the Valar by Great Eagle Post that the One Ring had been found).
Topic: Do all maia necessarily reform after their "fake" bodies being killed, as a general rule, or is this just for Sauron alone because the One Ring exists? I've heard people attribute both at different times to Sauron to explain his resurrections.
As far as I can remember, Sauron is the only Maia ever to suffer death, so I’m not sure we have a way to definitively answer that question, but given what we know about Morgoth and Sauron, I think we can surmise that as a rule, any of the Ainur could in principle make whatever body they want even after death but for some act of their own that makes their physical form more permanent.
None of those have any real history past their death so they don’t add any real data though lol. The implication for Saruman seems to be that his rebellion has landed him in a state where he can’t even take form again, but that’s just my guess. Balrogs might be in the same boat. Thuringwethil might be as well, but again the problem is we get no follow-up data on any of them.
@@TolkienLorePodcast I think somewhere in HoME I recall the professor saying that Maiar like Balrogs could become so wedded to a particular form that they lost the ability, or willingness, to cast it off at will. What happens to Balrogs when their body is destroyed is anyone's guess, but since we never get any hint of one ever returning after being killed, my guess is that they have lost the ability to create new bodies as well. I think we're explicitly told that Sauron lost the power to create a new body at will because he had put so much of his native power into the Ring. The Istari lost that ability because of the circumstances of their incarnation, which is why Gandalf had to be _sent_ back, he couldn't make a new body himself. The really interesting question for me is why Gandalf left the world when his body was destroyed, as opposed to staying in the world bodiless and impotent like Sauron, and presumably Saruman, did.
Seems to me that since Sauron was an Ainur, you could defend taking the One ring back to Valinor by saying you're just returning the problem to it's source. Humans, eves or dwarves didn't create this ring, why should they be held responsible for destroying it?
There's an argument to be made that the Valar (and to a lesser extent the Maiar) are partially responsible for the troubles in Middle Earth. Not through their action, but their inaction. After all, it was one of their ranks, Melkor, who started all the trouble in the first place, and they had huge, long stretches of time where they sat on their hands in Valinor and did nothing while Melkor festered in Middle Earth, even though they were capable of going to Middle Earth and collectively defeating Melkor. Plus, they made the decision to set Melkor free, even after they had defeated him once and brought him in chains back to Valinor. And then Sauron was just a byproduct of Melkor's malcontent, and the Valar could have probably pretty easily dispatched of Sauron.
Think of what power the ring has bound together. Three rings for elves, Seven for Dwarves, Nine for Men. Sauron by binding part of himself to things that are bound to Middle Earth bound himself to Middle Earth. Just as Men can't go to Valinor, neither can something bound to them go there. The elves bound themselves to Middle Earth by instantiating the rings and they would dwindle to nothingness through their pride in trying to "possess" realms in Middle Earth. The Dwarves were always part of Middle Earth.
@@TolkienLorePodcast true, but the three have presumably “failed” at that time as the one has been unmade. So I think the argument survives that counterpoint
How about a different tack where the reason we need to destroy the Ring of Sauron is to destroy the Taint of Sauron on Eru's creation. Now the parallel is Melkor who put his evil power into Arda and it weakened him but changed Arda to serve him. Sauron is not on the level of Melkor, but is it possible the idea of all his power being used to corrupt the land would not go away unless he was defeated. Also, the fact that Sauron is NOT on the level of the Valar may mean that a Maiar level response would be preferable. (Or you just give the ring to Tulkas & hope he doesn't fall asleep. Does Tulkas falling asleep resemble the idea of Tom forgetting. Not saying. Just it's fun)
I dont think Auele can destroy the ring as the ring although created by Sauron is a manifestation or a product of Morgoth as it was created on Mount Doom. That is why Mount Doom is the only place that can be destroyed. Even if he can destroy the ring through pure force, the destruction would likely result in a sinking of more than a continent or two. Sending to the west would also destroy the narrative structure as the age of the valar is over. This is a challenge for men to prove themselves worthy to inherit the world.If the valar had to step in every time then the age of men will never truly begin.
I think one of the big reasons is that IF the Valar won't take the ring, or can't destroy it, or it just takes a long time, Sauron will win before the rings is destroyed or, if it cannot be destroyed, you just lost your only chance. Yes, Sauron is never getting the ring, but he won't NEED it to conquer Middle Earth.
Also, I personally don't think the road to the sea would be much harder than to the Old Forest. All the extra distance is through the Shire (ok, that is other problems) and then the Tower hills and to Lindon. (Elvish lands) The big danger in going west lies in the fact they can easily get ambushed in Rhudaur or by the Weather hills. Once they reach Bree it is safer. Though, honestly, I think the Sea road is still easier than Moria/Mordor.
@@TolkienLorePodcast OK. But after the Battle of Pelenor fields and victory of Galadriel and Thranduil in the North, Sauron would've been isolated. And maybe Saruman would've repented, because no ring would be available for him.
The victory against Dol Guldur came after the destruction of the Ring so its not clear it would have happened otherwise. Also we know Sauron’s forces were still overwhelming regardless.
What if someone in Middle-Earth had invented rocketry and sent the ring into orbit? Or beyond orbit even? Presumably chemistry works in Middle-Earth, so in principle, wouldn't it have been possible? Don't say, "Er no, they didn't develop that tech." I'm saying, *in principle* it may have been physically possible. No?
The rings of power are an Elf problem. the forgers of the great rings were Elves and were the ones duped into creating them. Yet the elves did “shirk” their duty to deal with the One Ring. That the Vala refused to deal directly with the problem created by one of their own, indicates that their power in middle earth has been seriously curtailed.; and in fact are not able to help. When Valinor was removed from Arda by Iluvatar at the destruction of Numenor, the Vala had laid down their stewardship. What seems likely is that no Elf ship carrying the One Ring could ever find the “straight” course. The history of Middle Earth indicates that the Great are really piss poor at dealing with crises. Witness the Lamps, The Two Trees, The war of the Silmarils, The War of Wrath, The invasion of Valinor by the Numenoreans, and it goes on and on. It took humble hobbits to resolve the problems that the great elves and the great Ainur couldn’t.
Before one minute mark. Glorfindel. 1) ND are two consonants 2) they are not "muta cum liquida" or highly similar (BL, GL, BR, DR, GR, PL, CL, PR, TR, CR; FL, FR, THR) - what does this suggest about the accented syllable as being? I'm sorry, but having taught languages ...
hmmm… correct conclusion, incorrect reasoning. The correct syllable breakdown here is actually “Glór-find-el” rather than “Glór-fin-del”. Sindarin allows consonant clusters in coda position and the relevant stem is “find-“. However, whether there is or is not a consonant cluster is irrelevant for stress in Sindarin. It’s always on the penultimate syllable regardless. So yes “glórFINDel” not “GLÓRfindel”.
Its something strange to me. Sauron is maiar so its problem of ainur, hes notm belong to middleearth so valar should destroy their kin and should not leave middleearth almost at their own...
seems like the valar dropped the ball on this. sauron was their responsibility and so would the ring be. why couldnt the ring be sent into the void like melkor was?
@@TolkienLorePodcast cause Sauron is one of them. If your child or kin was terrorizing your neighborhood, it isn't the neighborhoods job to stop the kid. It's YOURS as either the parent or kinfolk.
@@TolkienLorePodcast it is if any adult authorities can't take care of you. The police don't go after the hulk when he rampages. That's what other superheroes are for. Local police don't travel to Russia when a violent criminal goes there. They get the fbi or us marshalls to do it cause they can handle that. Middle earth didn't make the ring. Sauron did. And it was the valar that let it happen
The only logical explanation is Eru telling Melkor that even his corruption was part of the greater good. Every other explanation falls apart. Fallen Valar and Maiar are an Ainur problem. The children of Eru didn't create that problem. The path west being watched shouldn't scare elves since they'd be on Ulmo's home turf and are headed that way anyways. Also, Valinor has tanked greater evil than the ring. In the past, Valinor was scared to wage war on Middle Earth because of the damage that it would cause. They could've destroyed Sauron far away from M.E. but didn't. This entire trilogy could've been written as a war to get the ring to Valinor instead of Mordor and it would've still worked thematically. The excuses these books give don't work without a lot of head canon.
Except not. Melkor’s discord is not “part of the greater good,” but rather only resounds to glory of the whole music because Eru works it into his theme. The westward road being watched is not the sea, but the road from Rivendell to the Havens, as shown by context. Valinor never “tanked” any evil like the Ring before. And finally, we have no reason to think the Valar could have ever destroyed Sauron away from Middle-earth since he was in Middle-earth as long as he was corrupt to the best of our knowledge, apart from a very brief stint in Numenor.
@@TolkienLorePodcast You can tell the amateur Tolkien students from serious students simply from their ability to admit that Tolkien's works aren't perfect. Like I said, Tolkien covers his ass with typical "God works in mysterious ways bullshit". If you try to make more sense of these events than even Tolkien could, you are on a dark path because some of the criticisms of Tolkien include subjects such as race worship.
@@TolkienLorePodcast You have a lot of balls to call yourself "Tolkien Lore" without knowing that Eru told Melkor that his discord was just another instrument in Eru's song (aka Arda). Maybe you should stfu and reread the Silmirillion.
I disagree. It was worth the trip just to ask if the Valar could or would destroy the Ring, and if not, just sail it back. Since Sauron ain't got shit on the likes of Aule or Manwe, I don't see the Ring tempting them at all. As for it being the easy way out, I 100% don't care. And there are so many routes West even Sauron can't watch them all.
@@TolkienLorePodcast It took more than a year to shift the ring from Bag End to Mt Doom anyway, and everyone from Gandalf down is not shy of admitting what a big risk that plan was (when they don't think they might be overheard by enemy spies). Now I'm not a Gandalf or CoE basher, I think the Mt Doom play is the second best option they have, especially since Gandalf knows how tough (certain) Hobbits are to corrupt and also about Sauron's blind spot wrt destroying the Ring - but I do think Tolkien, you, and many other people make too much of the pure notion of taking responsibility. IMO the matter of the Ring isn't about responsibility, it's about defanging Sauron, and the sooner the better. Task focus FTW.
The time from Shire to Mt. Doom isn’t relevant; Rivendell to Mt. Doom is what matters. That’s only 3 months. But even from the Shire it’s 6 months, not a year, once they actually set out. As for task focus, the only certain way to defang Sauron is to destroy the Ring, and the only certain way to do that is at Mt. Doom. So yeah, they were pretty focused.
That’s something I genuinely love about JRR Tolkien. He had answers for all of this because he thought of all these answers before even writing the text as to why the only way to defeat Sauron was the path of most resistance
Not really. The eagles are a HUGE plot hole. :D Most of his "answers" are the highest risk, lowest chance of success solutions that nobody would have actually taken who had half a brain. From a fans point of view Tolkien seems overly brilliant and his world building skills were. His tactical brain sadly, like many writers was not so great. For example the idea that Sauron wouldn't expect them to try and destroy the ring at mount doom, when in fact Isildur and Elrond had literally almost done it before, was silly. He would have had that place guarded well if he was anywhere as clever as he was written to be. The idea that they shouldn't bring it to the west because the Valar wouldn't or couldn't help again..............silliness. The wizards, Gandalf among them were literally sent there for that purpose! It's great fantasy but it's just fantasy. A work of art, but not a work of intellect. :)
@@MrBottlecapBill i disagree.
eagles can be chased and harrassed risking the fellowship.
saruman we saw him controlling the skies which harrassed the fellowship so they have no choice but to lay low but eventually that is not enough.
Funnily enough, "In Deep Geek" launched a video two days ago that explained what Isildur really did in the book. His plan was to give away the ring to people who would know what to do of it because he knew he would eventually succomb to its influences and he got ambushed on the way to do so.
The ring, having its own will, made sure to fall from his hands while he was fleeing the orks.
Not only the west road would be watched by agents of Sauron, the ring's will could have made sure they never made it to the sea.
I doubt he wouldve really given it up.
@@waltonsmith7210 In unfinished tales, when told by his son (as they're about to be killed by orcs) that he had to flee the Gladden Fields and give the One Ring to one of the owners of the three elven rings, he replied:
"I knew that I must do so; but I feared the pain. Nor could I go without your leave. Forgive me, and my pride that has brought you to this doom."
@@maaderllin yeah he said that.Ive read that. Still, push hadnt come to shove. He had a noble intention. I dont thinkcanyone could willingly give up the ring. Even Bilbo only gave it up with a maia helping him. Gandakf had to put forth his power to augment Bilbo's will.
@@waltonsmith7210 Sam gave it back to Frodo
@@Charles-A Sam didn't have it for very long and anyway the Hobbits show a lot more resilience to the ring's influence than do humans.
And I wonder if they would be able to find the straight road, having ring with them, in the first place. Who knows what might happen out on the open sea and beyond with that kind of evil in their keeping. Many things could go wrong, the road itself may reject them. Who knows
Kind of a reverse Silmaril effect, closing the way that would otherwise be open? Interesting….
While I agree that it is clear the Valar were not going to intervene directly, I question that their reasons for doing so make sense. One of the reasons the War of Wrath was so massively destructive was that the Valar gave Morgoth over 500 years once he returned to Middle-Earth to build up his forces. Furthermore, once the Valar did act and the war was over, they (or perhaps more specifically Eönwë (yes, I know he's a maia)) made the mistake of assuming Sauron would voluntarily return to Valinor for judgement. So, they basically repeated the mistake they had made in releasing Melkor after having locked him up. I think you can make a solid argument that Sauron, being one of the Ainur, was something the other Ainur should have dealt with on their own. And if they had done so properly, there wouldn't even have been the One Ring to be concerned about. Unfortunately, the Valar didn't finish the job after the War of Wrath and left Sauron and at least one other maia, Durin's Bane, to cause more problems down the road.
I'm sure they received another scolding from Eru, like after the war of Wrath.
Truthfully they were afraid they were going to destroy another continent after what happened, they did send 5 maia to contain Sauron, and he's only 1 weakened Maia.
@@celdur4635 Which is why I don't think the risk of wide-spread destruction was that great. Sauron and his forces hadn't near the power that Morgoth and his forced did in the War of Wrath.
@@istari0 Maybe, but if all you have is a big hammer, everything looks like nails.
Look at the US when it messes with countries around the world, its never easy or small.
Word, the "wisdom" of the higher beings is probably the most badly executed thing in Tokien's mythology
@@bugs1yb1ins I think that is one of the most interesting aspects of Tolkien's lore, its clear the Valar are very flawed and far from perfect, the only one that is omnious is Eru, which represents the catholic faith that everythinf has a purpose, but the Valar being compared to other gods like the greek and nordic represent they failure of the politeist gods, but Tolkien made his gods more naive than jerks like Zeus and Odin for example. But yeah, its a very interestinf dynamic to have a "perfect" almighty God surrounded by many flawed gods in the same universe.
I interpret Elrond's reasoning of "it must be shunned" was that as the obvious thing to do, Sauron would be on guard for it. His comment of the Elves fleeing west was how they had been reacting to the shadow; going in the complete opposite direction, so Sauron would be watching for them to repeat the pattern of taking the Ring as far from him as they could.
I suppose, but he wouldn't even know the Ring was in Rivendell for several more weeks, and it was months before the Nazgul appeared west of Anduin again, so what exactly was he going to do about it? he sent the Nazgul to begin with because they were the only ones he could trust with the mission so far from his direct influence.
There is a very trivial answer, no journey to Mordor no book. Luckily, Tolkien was not satisfied with this facetious answer and gave good reasons, why this would not work. You have elucidated these answers well. Thanks and keep up the good work.
You handled this really well, man I love the Council of Elrond chapters. Some of the best, love the history and tactics they discuss, man it is fantasy & good-writing par excellence on the part of Tolkien. Only his Rohan chapters are better in my opinion. By the time of the Elrond chapter I remember on my first read-through thinking; 'the west-route must be blocked, there is no way Sauron will allow that' and BAM! Tolkien confirms just that. Love his work.
I'm of the mind that the Ring would have corrupted someone over in Aman all the faster than it might in Middle-Earth due to its Maia-connections. The worst thing would be for it to end up with Finarfin or Ingwe.
I would think the Valar, naive though they are, would be smart enough to have one of their number meet the ship at the shore and take the Ring directly without giving it a chance to corrupt anyone, and then immediately destroy it. I can't imagine a Maia could possibly make anything that would corrupt a Vala, or that Aule wouldn't be able to destroy anything one of his former pupils had made. The Valar may not be gods, but their power is god-like.
Catching your video months after it was posted, but I like the discussion! One of the reasons that I think was understated in the story but is much clearer in the background lore of the Silmarillion is that the Ring is fundamentally of Middle Earth, and Valinor has been separated from Middle Earth in order to keep it separate and sacred away from Morgoth’s influence.
Because Morgoth poured so much of his own divine power into the mundane world of Middle Earth, he made it his “ring.” Sauron similarly wanted to wield more power in ME and used the ring to do so. But it’s a perversion of divine power to use it to dominate changeable ME.
Similarly, the reason why the Numenoreans were committing such a taboo by assaulting Valinor is because they were wanting to bring what is unchanging to a changeable world. Deathless Numenoreans would be terrifying and would change the nature of ME forever!
So perhaps the Ring coming to Valinor would do the opposite-make its perversion ever-green, extend its influence and mix the mundanity of ME with the divine power of the Valar. The taint of Morgoth would in a sense be hallowed by having a portion of his malice brought into a timeless eternal realm that was separated solely to get away from that taint.
Thought provoking as usual 👍 a couple of ideas: those at the Council also have to make a decision based on the best information and advice they have, which is probably mainly from Elrond and Gandalf. Gandalf in particular is likely to know the mind of the Valar on this, due to his mission. Secondly, in the end the ring isn't just destroyed, it is 'unmade' and there is a subtle difference; it can only be unmade in the place it was forged. Finally, if Eru Iluvatar knows all things, then providence may also be at play. The quest has many ripple effects including the re-establishment of the line of Kings and the ushering in of the age of men.
This video bring to mind the Golden Apples of Greek mythology, even the Olympian deities weren't immune to their effects
To me the biggest argument against taking the Ring to the West is no guarantee the Valar would open the door.
Maybe The Ring would’ve caused civil war in Valinor if elves or Maier were tempted to use it in some way.
Thats why you need to give it to one of the Valar to which it would look nice on the fireplace, not some elf here or there noob
On the destruction of Ring by Aule in Valinor - maybe we could draw parallel to the Silmarills debate after destruction of the trees. Valar ask Feanor to break Silmarills. He refuses, and rest is the history of the first age. Lets put aside for the moment the question of free will, because Valars did not want to force Feanor to do it against his free will. Questions is maybe Valars could not break the Silmarills even if they wanted. Maybe some objects can be destroyed only by its makers?
I think the reason not to take the ring to Valinor is the Lords of the West won’t take it but why?
I suggest two reasons firstly the Prophecy of Mandos / the curse of the Noldor; the ring is tied to this curse. Celebrimbor produced the three rings so that the elves will have dominions east of the sea. Celebrimbor is a Noldorin prince of the house of Fëanor and subject to the prophecy which includes: “And those [Noldor] that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after.” The curse of the Noldor cannot end until all the dominions of the Elves have failed and ended and this cannot happen until the ring is destroyed. When Galadriel says that she will diminish and go into the West, she has accepted the loss of her dominion and sees that the prophecy is complete and by rejecting the offer of the ring found redemption so that she can be accepted in Valinor. Galadriel has chosen what is right she has fought the long defeat and accepted her fate and redemption.
The second reason is that the destruction of the ring allows the men and more specifically the men of Númenor to redeem themselves after their fall and to take on the responsibility of the stewardship of Middle earth. The destruction of the ring brings about the defeat of Sauron the architect of the fall of Numenor, the departure of the firstborn and makes men responsible for their own fate and that of Middle Earth. The destruction of the ring and the birth of the new age is the responsibility of Mortals because it brings about the age of Mortals.
I was asking myself the same question the other day, what a coincidence! Thanks for your content, I enjoyed it as always! 😊
There are so many reasons why bringing the Ring to Valinor is a really bad idea. First of all, who would do that? Remember Frodo only gets to go to the Undying Lands because of what he did to get the Ring destroyed, so he couldn't do it. By the time of the Council of Elrond, Bilbo was already experiencing "ring withdrawal." I don't see him being trusted to do it. That means it has to be an immortal who has the right to sail to the Undying Lands. That means one of them must claim the Ring and bear it. By all accounts, they would all get corrupted and the Ring would never make it's way to Valinor. I think Joshua (that's your name, right?) was right about the Valar being too holy to purposely allow something so evil to enter into their realm, especially after what happen with Melkor and Ungoliant. Honestly, I don't see Cirdan allowing anyone to enter Mithlond with the Ring. I am sure he would forbid it. He remembered the origin of the Rings of Power as well as Elrond, Galadriel and Celeborn did.
I think primarily, the reason this wouldn't happen is that the Ring, for one reason or another, would never make it to Valinor i.e. the Ring would ensure that it doesn't make it there (as many have already explained in the comments). But secondly, I also personally think that the Valar would refuse the Ring. The Valar would of course remember what happened with the Simarils and the IMMENSE evil that came to be because of them. They are aware of the Ring and how evil it is and they want no part of it! So they send some Maia over to Middle-earth and let them deal with it.
Hi, just want to say you're amazing. The stories you retell are so entertaining. Wish you all the best!
Are there evil things living in the sea that are in league with Sauron? Or does Sauron have any power to influence the weather (and in this case the weather outside of Mordor)? Because a shipwreck would be a good way to royally mess up this plan.
He did manage to send a storm to destroy Arvedui's ship, but that was very near the shore of Middle-earth, and he had the witch-king nearby. I'm not sure how he'd even know where the Ring was since it took some time for the Nazgul to return after they were "killed" (unhoused and unhorsed) at the ford.
If they even made it to Valinor, enchanted by the will of Eru, the Blessed Land itself might just refuse to take it. The Ring and Ringbearer might just suffer a fate similar to that of Ar-Pharazon and those of his troops who stepped onto Aman's shores with him, buried until the end of time. And although he couldn't use the power he had invested in the Ring, Sauron's power in total would remain undiminished.
From a practical viewpoint, sending the Ring to Valinor only creates another problem, namely, if you do this you have no story and hence, no book. To have Frodo go all the way to Rivendell with the Nazgul in hot pursuit, only to have the Council decide to send the Ring over the sea would have been the biggest anti-climax in all of literature. When Gandalf discovered the true nature of the Ring, he could have had the hobbits ride to the Havens, which are quite close to the Shire, long before the Nazgul came, dump the Ring on the next ship and story over. Aule would destroy the Ring and that would be the end of it. Easy, but no room for heroic deeds.
Valinor does take some level of responsibility by sending the wizards, since Sauron is from their society, but they're also extremely wary of "helicopter parenting" Middle Earth since the disasters of Feanor and Numenor. The idea that they would simply refuse to take the Ring is probably the right one, though not from any fear of corruption from someone like Sauron. Especially if we imagine there are any Feanorian objects still in Valinor: Objects tainted directly by Morgoth would seem far more dangerous. But they would refuse to admit the Ring because it would undermine the moral evolution of the Children of Iluvatar.
Another thought is that Valinor is not necessary a safe place anyway. Just for one example, Melkor and Ungoliant were able to sneak in undetected and destroy the Two Trees while nobody was looking. They should have been the last pair to be able to sneak, and the Trees should have been the last places left unprotected. Maybe Valinor is far too optimistic a place to keep the Ring safe.
I imagine that like you said, the Valar would not even let it in. Anyone who would try to enter would not be able to find the straight path. So it's a moot point
Nice one. Bombadil, even if he did guard it, would be overcome eventually.
As well, I wouldn't really call Feanor evil personally, he had good reason to be pissed and swear the oath. The KinSlaying was bad though, sure, but perhaps understandable. He was kind of like a dark elf, a bit bad, but bad ass for sure too...I personally think the way he died/ spirit of fire/ was a result of not only his fiery anger and will plus being a smith, but also a kind of merger in spirit with his death by GothMog, almost like a transmogrification. This would be an interesting talk, I've never seen it tackled very deeply.
As I recall (it's been a spell since I last read the books), Bombadil was completely unaffected by the ring when Frodo gave it to him; and at the Council of Elrond, someone (Gandalf?) mentions that Bombadil would probably forget about it and it would wind up lost again. So it's not that Bombadil would be enslaved by it, but Bombadil would simply be a totally unreliable guardian for it.
@@TheDarthbinky Between Gandalf and Elrond they say both: that Bombadil would be careless (because he wouldn't understand the danger) and therefore a poor choice of guardian, and that even Bombadil doesn't have the power to resist the full might of Mordor.
I think the strongest argument against sending it to Valinor is the ban on sending something tainted and evil to a sacred place. Id be like " Hey Valar, this renegade is one of YOUR people and YOUR responsibility. Even if Sauron had spies in the area, there was certainly no agents with power or numbers to stop an armed escort west into Eriador from Rivendell. I dont think orcs in the North woud be capable of that, nor do I think these orcs were directly under Sauron's service, maybe defacto they are but I doubt they even know that. I do have two alternatives. Send it across the Sea, not to Valinor but to the Americas because we know this landmass exists by now. The hostility of Ulmo's seas would hamper any of Morgoth's servants crossing it. Second, since the eagles can pass into the " upper airs" assumedly poetic speach for space, perhaps the eagles could place it in a sustained orbit about the world or even fling it into space. It could also be chucked into the void but theres someone in there we really dont want to get it.
This is great analysis! RUclips recommended some of your videos and I really like how you think through these problems.
A question: if the Ring had gone West and not been able to be destroyed is it possible Sauron could've made it West and gotten the Ring back?
I don’t think Sauron could have conquered Valinor when he couldn’t even fight off Numenor, so no.
I've always thought this was a rare weak point in Tolkien's plotting. Sure, Elves or Maiar might be corruptible, but I can't imagine a Maia, even Sauron, could possibly make anything that could corrupt a Vala - their power and strength of will is infinitely beyond any lesser being. As for "it's our problem to deal with," that might be persuasive if it had actually been made by Men or Elves, but it was made by a renegade FROM Valinor, so to my mind that makes it more the Valar's problem than one for the people of Middle-earth. I understand why they didn't want to come to Middle-earth themselves, but that's not what's being asked, and Aule breaking the Ring in Valinor would hardly be likely to cause the same sort of cataclysm in Middle-earth that the direct intervention of the Valar there had caused.
I'm also not convinced that the road west would have been particularly dangerous IF they had left as soon as Frodo was well enough to travel. We're told that the Nazgul would take some time to make their way back to Mordor unhorsed and unbodied, so it was probably weeks before Sauron had any idea the Ring had reached Rivendell. Given how long it was - more than four months - before the Nazgul reappeared west of Anduin, it seems unlikely to me that Sauron would have been able to organize an effort to find the Ring before it could be gotten to the Grey Havens - especially given that for this journey, unlike the attempt to sneak into Mordor, a small company of Elven warriors like Glorfindel going to the Havens, possibly also accompanied by a small troop of Dunedain rangers, would have been very useful while not seeming all that out of the ordinary. Was there ANY danger? Of course. But more than taking the Ring through the orc-infested Misty Mountains, directly past Saruman and Dol Guldur, and into Mordor itself? It seems to me that no matter how unexpected it was, that was still orders of magnitude more risky than taking the westward road.
I think for this one we just have to be satisfied with the answer that it would have been a short and boring book if they'd taken that road.
Edit: after more thought I can think of one story internal reason that I can't find a flaw with: the Valar knew (as Gandalf did) that no one would ever be able to give up the Ring to be destroyed voluntarily, so if Frodo or someone else did get it there, they would have to take it from that bearer by force, which, as Gandalf says, would break the bearer, and that would violate the Valar's sacred duty to respect the free will of the Children of Illuvatar. Gandalf and Elrond knew that it would require an act of providence, a miracle, for the Ring to be destroyed, and Eru might grant that providence if someone had the strength of will to take the Ring to Mount Doom, but might be less disposed to do so if they took what appeared to be the easy way out. Of course that still means that Gandalf and Elrond weren't being entirely honest at the council - but of course we knew that. But they were at least being honest in saying the task was appointed to Frodo, and not to the rest of them or to the Valar.
I never bought into “the Ring belongs to Middle Earth” theory because Sauron was a Maia and therefore one of the lesser Valor. He could not have created the Ring without that power so it really should have been the responsibility of the Valor to deal with one of their own.
Well stated, sir.
Not really. The Ring is the result of Sauron messing with Celebrimbor. And Celebrimbor being in Eregion at all is a result of his refusal to accept Valar's pardon at the end of the First Age. Valar already offered Elves a way to avoid this whole mess. But enough of them didn't listen and decided to continue to do their thing.
I can't agree with that. That's how I see it: One Ring is physical manifestation of corruption that is part of Middle-Earth, inflicted by Morgoth and Sauron. Thus, it is not of Valinor nor even of Ainur. It is unically bonded with mortal land and Saurons machinations specificaly in Middle-Earth
@@CruelDwarf not the one ring. The One was made by Sauron himself, without Elven interference. And remember as well that the whole ring thing was a big scam, Celebimbor didn't knew that Anatar was Sauron. Finally, Sauron still being an actor on middle earth was the result of the Valar not imprisioning him in the war of the wrath, although he was probably the second-highest ranked in Thangorodrim.
I agree. I don’t get the argument that taking it West would’ve been “cowardly”. As you said, the thing that made it is literally a Maia, a creature of the west.
I can buy all the other reasons why going west was a bad idea, but not that particular one.
Isildur realized that the Ring was too powerful for him to use, and he said that it should go to the keepers of the Three. As for Aragorn, he should be much weaker than Isildur after the slow withdrawal of the Numenoreans' gifts, making each generation weaker than the previous one. But several people, including Elrond, noted that Aragorn was the greatest of all the chieftains of the Dunedain, indeed, the greatest since Elendil. Would that make him strong enough to use the One? Legolas thought so. But, of course, Legolas isn't one of the wise. At the council before the march on Mordor, Gandalf seemed to think so too.
I think it was more that Gandalf thought Aragorn taking the Ring was enough of a threat for Sauron to sit up and tale notice. Enough to frighten Sauron and enough to be likely to actually master it are two different things.
Could it also be that the existence of the ring is due to the failures of Celebrimbor and Isildur, it is the fault of elves and men that the ring still exists not the fault of the valar (which was the case with Morgoth). Both races need to take responsibility for what they (unintentionally) helped to create.
In my opinion it is the valar who are shirking their responsibility. They let Sauron escape at the end of the first age, together with at least one balrog and several dragons. They were supposed to guard all of Arda, not only Valinor, and they are doing a pretty bad job when it comes to Middleearth.
@@kristianh.pedersen2 Nope.They are Gods in the vein of the Greek or Norse Gods. They are not omnipotent, they are singular entities that are not Gods (Big G). In the setting there is One GOD and he works in mysterious ways ( the standard excuse for Yahweh/ Allah whatevers utter imcompetence). Not only are they not omnipotent they expicitly do not know (except maybe Mandos) Eru's entire plan. To utterly exterminate all of Morgoths forces/allies would have (even if possible) required pretty much smashing up Arda and starting again. Which they will not / cannot do. Its the exact same reason why the Silmarils remain lost, after all there is real reason why Ulmo or Osse couldnt just go looking for the one Maglor dumped in the sea (you would think that one would be an easy find). They try to be hands off because hands on causes massive and irrepairable damage to Arda.
@@jamesmaybrick2001 Exactly. It is Sauron's pride and hate that prevented him from facing judgement in the ring of doom after the war of wrath. He showed no contrition and the Valar are not responsible for that nor are they responsible for policing the world and ordering it to its own good, that would have been contrary to Tolkien's concept of good and evil and free will.
Edit: or one could say it was the one moment Sauron actually was remorseful, but pride, envy, hate was stronger it seems.
@@maxion5109 It's not clear that he was ever truly repentant, as opposed to being sorry he was on the losing side. I think Tolkien deliberately left that unclear, we can never truly understand the hearts and minds of beings like Maiar and Valar.
I agree it is part of middle earth, and needs to be handled on middle earth. But the Valar also ordered Sauron to return to stand judgment. And what better bait to get him to return to Valinor than the one ring?
I always assumed it was for the reason you discuss about 14 min into the vid - it's all about the Valar letting Middle Earth handle its own affairs, because the last time they intervened in a major way, Beleriand was destroyed. So let the men and hobbitses and dwarves and elves figure it out, with the guiding hand of the Istari to gently lead them in the best direction.
Also, I don't remember you mentioning it (edit: rewatching and yeah you do talk about it) but taking the ring to the West doesn't really eliminate the problem. Sauron still exists, and in the books, he's resumed physical form; as long as the ring exists, Sauron exists. Could the Ainur destroy the ring themselves? Presumably but we'll never know (and you briefly touch on it, but I wonder if Aule is capable of destroying things? He's a "creator god", not a "destroyer god"... hmmm....); and would they really be keen to destroy one of their own? They didn't permanently destroy Morgoth (if they even could), seems unlikely they'd do that to Sauron either.
It's a fair point regarding allegiance among Ainur, though Morgoth was actually "executed" by Manwe and Mandos after the War of Wrath. Sorry I don't have the source rn, I think I saw the quote on screen in a Red Book video, and its from Morgoth's Ring
Not executed, just thrust into the Outer Void.
@@TolkienLorePodcast More or less the same thing, isn't it? I don't think it possible for any of them to be destroyed - in fact, I don't think the Valar can (or would) _destroy_ the feä of an Elf or Man. Likewise destroying the Ring wouldn't destroy Sauron, just render him powerless. Spirits, souls in our terms, are created by Eru and can only be destroyed by Eru. But thrusting Morgoth into the Outer Void was essentially the same thing as executing a Man.
I have wondered if Elrond's distinction between "they who dwell beyond the Sea" and "us who still dwell here" is the closest the text comes directly to explaining the question about the Eagles' lack of participation in the Fellowship. If Elrond counts the Eagles in the former and not the latter group, then his argument here would also count as an argument not to seek help from the Eagles. Thoughts?
The Eagles are servants of Manwe so that would make sense, but more importantly how do you get a message to the Eagles in the first place? They come to the other characters, not the other way round.
@@TolkienLorePodcast, you make a good point that the Eagles do generally initiate contact. I guess the one contemporary (to LOTR) exception is Radagast.
there is also a question on who would take the ring to Valinor, even if the Valar and Maiar would resist it, whoever takes it likely will be corrupted and then the ring would have to be taken from him/her by force.
Why is a rogue maia from Valinor middle earth's problem? Seems to me the Valar have a responsibility to police one of their own directly.
Also, future Valar-led wars against Sauron would never be as cataclysmic as those waged against Morgoth, who had winged dragons and balrogs etc. He'd be swept away militarily.
the north would of been far more dangerous if Sauron had been able to make allegiance with Smaug and the Balrog as he had planned
It's not clear to me that either had any desire to work with Sauron. I think they were more like useful distractions for him. In the Silmarillion Balrogs and dragons never took orders from anyone but Morgoth himself - Sauron had orcs, werewolves, and other evil things to serve him, but never Balrogs or dragons.
Sauron: "Hey, that's cheating!"
Because Manwe and Varda would have sent the bearer right back to Middle Earth (it would be the bearer's job to deal with it, not the Valar's). Tolkien explicitly said so. In the end, I think Tolkien saw it as a matter of agency (responsibility, if you prefer). See the Book of Jonah on attempts to run away from responsibility.
I'm pretty sure Sauron would have enough armies to overwhelm them already, destroying the ring was the only way to win the war, without relying on Hannibal-like victories by some general, against overwhelming odds in this war, while there are still elves in the world. And then hoping in the hundreds or thousands of years to come that Sauron would not regroup and come back as you said.
Being that the ring is part of sauron but also its own creature. It would have chosen to not go west and hop on the trip back to its master with one of his orcs or it would have corrupted someone in valinor then called its master west. Let us not forget the eye in the sky would have noticed someone taking a ship on the straight road.
If the Ring had ended up in Valinor, I don't it would have been there any longer than it took Aulë to destroy it. I don't think any of the Valar could have been corrupted by the Ring as they were all inherently more powerful than Sauron and I also believe Aulë would definitely find a way to destroy it. As far as Sauron goes, I don't know that he would know how to take the straight path and even if he did, he would have been marching into a realm of his enemies, some of whom were much more powerful than him. Also, ships of elves had been sailing into the West for a long time; in and of itself one more is not noticeable.
@@istari0 I agree. The practical difficulties are the _least_ compelling reason.
The only reason I feel that durect action resulted in apocaplypses is because the valar and even eru let things get that far. Even eru could have just wiped out melkor at the first declartion and avoided everything that happened afterward
But then we wouldn't have all the lovely stories.
All good points. Elrond's "coward's way" argument is silly and prideful. If to save the world you need to be meek and cowardly, so be it. That would be the wise thought in that moment. That being said, the other logic to take it to Doom were genuinely good enough to move them in that direction.
Ungoliant counts too. She was evil as Morgoth himself.
And not all the Maiar are proof against corruption. Think of Osse. He was already tempted by Melkor once, and if it wasn't for Undine, his wife, he might have fallen ages ago.
And the place is full of elves. Maybe the mere presence of the Ring spurs the Teleri to take vengence on the Noldor. All it needs is one hothead with a bow behind a tree, and ...
I've always disliked the idea of the Valar refusing to directly help against Sauron. He is a mair, one of their own. As such he is absolutely their responsibility. To allow him to cause so much death and destruction among lesser beings who have no chance against him is tough for me to swallow. It is completely ludicrous that the Valar would expect the people of middle earth to stand against a divine being who is basically a minor deity/rogue angel. That seems cruel and uncaring on their part. Logic would dictate that Aule would immediately enter Middle Earth and grab Sauron, who is his servant and direct responsibility, by the ear and drag him back to Valinor in chains.
I’m a human, you’re a human. Does that make you my responsibility?
@@TolkienLorePodcast Well, yes actually. Not directly but in a societal sense. Where I live if an adult human intentionally harms an animal like a dog or a horse, other hunans generally arrest him, try him and hold him accountable. Without humans to protect them animals like dogs and horses otherwise don't have the capacity to defend themselves against cruel humans, who have all the power in that dynamic. Other humans must take srewardship of those animals and protect them. In the case of Sauron, he is in a sense a child or at least a servant of the Valar and therefore their responsibility. As one of the Ainur he is vastly more powerful than Elves and Men, who can't destroy him and generally cannot do much to resist him aside from temporarily holding him at bay from time to time, at the cost of great suffering. The Valar have supposedly dedicated their existence to being stewards and protectors of Arda and its people. To sit back idly and let one of their own wayward Maia do as he pleases to warp Illuvatar's creation, dominate his children and do so much harm in the process seems very much against everything they supposedly stand for.
I agree. I also think the counter argument is they are directly help against Sauron. They sent five Istari to counter the power of Sauron. Then even sent Gandalf back when his physical body is destroyed in the fight with the balrog.
So they’re helping and pretty directly. But they’re not fighting the whole fight.
I remember being asked, "Why didn't Gandalf call one of the great eagles, pass the ring off to them, and let them drop it directly into Mt. Doom?" I believe that the answer was that the eagles had a war going within their nation and no one could be spared for the task, though it seems like a pretty important job to pass up, no matter how busy you are or what else is at stake.
The reason was actually that it wouldn’t work. It would draw Sauron’s eye to the eagle and with all his will and strength directed, the eagle would be overtaken by fel beasts and the ring lost.
The fellowships mission is one of stealth. They decided their best shot was to be sneaky and do something unexpected to avoid a direct confrontation, which they did not have the strength to handle.
@@alandworsky8926 Thanks for the response. As I watched more of the videos I saw the disparate parts of you point given as answers to a variety of perspectives and ideas. This is a really thorough and thoughtful channel, in many respects, and I'm still working my way through all the content.
@@alandworsky8926 it would only work at all if there were a diversion, such as Aragorn’s major assault on the Black Gate, which would still require time to Mass the forces needed for the diversion.
Can you trust an eagle with the Ring? They seem to be intelligent beings, and not the direct servants of Manwe we meet in the Silmarillion.
And yes, also, Sauron must surely know about the eagles and have some plan for keeping them out of Mordor. Remember that they show up before the Black Gate during the battle but don't try to actually fly into Mordor until after the Ring has been destroyed.
Also, everyone seems to forget that they can't carry a person an infinite distance - from Orthanc to Edoras or Moria to Lorien seems to be about the limit. They'd still have to do the trip in a series of stages, resting on the ground in between, and they'd be highly visible the whole way. (They may not have even flown all the way out of Mordor with Frodo and Same in one hop, all that was really needed at that moment was to get them off the erupting volcano and a few miles away.)
Deal with the problem head-on instead of pushing it off. It would suit the politicians of our time too well to take some council from Elrond also.
Taking the Ring to an entire landmass of powerful, angelic beings that can't guarantee they wouldn't be tempted by it, seems like a bad idea. I think Manwe, Varda, and Tulkas would be immune at least, but Aule is at heart curious and tends to get carried away. As many Maiar would be tempted as wouldn't. Osse? He is certainly going to be tempted.
I can't imagine any mere Maia could make an object that could sway the will of a Vala, or that Aule couldn't destroy. Only Morgoth could have done that. But it could cause dissent among the Maiar and Elves and bring strife to a place that was supposed to be entirely free from it.
I agree, with Mr. Waxman. There is no reason the Valar could not destroy the ring and may in truth be more responsible for it than any race in Middle-earth, since it was created by an Ainur and empowered with divine essence. The Noldor in Eriador had no part in its making, as Sauron forged the ring in secret.
Nah, Noldor were directly involved in this whole mess. Firstly, The Ring is just another echo of Feanor's Oath, because the whole story with Annatar is a giant fuck up on the part of Celebrimbor and Elves of Eregion (who were predominantly Noldor). Everything that progeny of Feanor or people who accept their leadership does inevitably ends badly. An universal pardon of sort was granted to every Noldor at the end of the First Age, Celebrimbor and his pals refused it and decided to continue to mess with forces that they have little understanding of and so gave Sauron the opportunity to make another mess. Without 'regular' rings made by Elves, Sauron have no reason to create the One.
So this is basically it: whole Ring business is another fault of Feanor's brood. As almost everything else in this particular part of the world.
@@CruelDwarf We shall have to agree to disagree.
@@CruelDwarf I disagree. Sauron himself was a problem the Valar failed to deal with. No Sauron left in Middle-Earth, no One Ring.
@@istari0 I;m not sure that Valar have any specific responsibility over Sauron. It is what people often misunderstand about Tolkien cosmology/theology. Ainur aren't Gods, they do not have authority and do not rule/govern the world, they aren't enforcers for Eru. Basically all failures of Valar stem from the fact that they intervene in things that they shouldn't and it is not that they do not do enough, they actually do way too much.
The Valar are not responsible for policing the world and ordering it to its own good, that would have been contrary to Tolkien's concept of good and evil and free will. But all evil that has happened ultimately stems from Melkor's rebellion. He's the prime mover of evil in creation, even though he was not evil to begin with. It's a progression. And we also wouldn't have a story without it.
That part where Frodo offers it to both Gandalf and then, later, Galadriel, always confused me. Even if they had accepted his offer, I doubt he would have been able to give it up.
He thought that he could give it up. He also thought that he will be willing to destroy it. It just means that he was wrong on both counts.
While it took some encouragement, both Bilbo and Sam gave up the ring. And if either Gandalf or Galadriel had decided to take Frodo up on his offer, it's not like Frodo could have stopped them if he changed his mind.
Frodo might or might not have been able to give up the Ring to Gandalf or Galadriel, but when he made those offers, he had not had the Ring as long, had not yet attracted Sauron's notice on Amon Hen, and above all was not standing right inside Sammath Naur on the slopes of Orodruin.
Good discussion.
I think the Valor would send it back to Middle Earth with their lower elves to give it back to Elrond or Galadriel. I have a hard time believing that the Valar would be open to accepting something that is so corrupting and destructive on their land to destroy their way of life. I mean, I could be wrong. They could accept it and try to destroy it or lock it up somewhere but the spirit of Sauron would still be summoning the Easterlings, men of the south and black corsair ships and nothing would change. Giving it to the Valar would probably be more detrimental to Middle - Earth because there would be no way to kill Sauron and keep him from summoning Orcs, trolls and other creatures of shadow. It would just keep going and going until all the armies of men were spent.
I can't imagine Aule couldn't destroy anything one of his pupils had made. Likewise they could easily have broken the Silmarils open if they'd wanted - but the Silmarils weren't theirs to destroy, and they refused to compel Feanor to hand them over. Likewise, it's pretty clear to me that anyone who brought the Ring to Valinor would in the end be unwilling to hand it over to be destroyed (just as Frodo couldn't bring himself to destroy it in the end), and the Valar would refuse to take it by force, so the only alternative would be to send it back to Middle-earth. Something that evil certainly couldn't be permitted to stay in Valinor.
Hold on. Valinor won't accept it. They don't want to throw it into the sea because Sauron could still get it eventually. Why not sail it beyond the undying border and throw it in the ocean before the shores of Valinor where Sauron can never reach it?
How does that solve the problem of throwing it in the sea
I still think I could make a case to Aule : yo, your boy has been getting up to some messed up antics, he learned a lot of skills from you, after all. Can you destory this ring with your mighty power, please? I get the reasoning behind why that cant be done, but it still doesnt seem entirely fair that the alternative includes torturing poor Frodo.
After some musing above, the conclusion I've come to is that it isn't that the Valar wouldn't take it if freely offered, or would be tempted by it, or couldn't destroy it, it's that they knew anyone who brought it there would (like Frodo at Mount Doom) at the end be overcome by it and unable to give it up to be destroyed, and the only way they could take it to destroy it would be to take it from the bearer by force, but that would violate their sacred trust to respect the free will of the Children of Illuvatar. Even Gandalf knew that if he took the Ring, even just to keep it safe, he would never be able to give it up again.
Melkor was held in Valinor, and he was rather evil... The elves went West during the story, so it was possible to go West. The real answer is the story wouldn't happen if they took this obvious choice.
I must watch too many Tolkien related videos, since I cannot remember if I asked for a video on this topic or not. 🤔
When Isildur failed to destroy the RING after ALL the sacrifices made, it became Middle Earth's problem and ALL beings still left will have to work together, and if so, Eru would grace them enough to get the task done. #stop being selfish!
Taking the ring west wouldnt be so difficult. 5 of the nine where unhorsed, the other 4 where spread thin, and Gandalf took on the 9 unupgraded and they lost.
As for northern orcs, most of them where destroyied in the War of 5 armies, and the elves where traveling that path, no biggie.
They could even send the company south, as a decoy, while Frodo gone West with Glorfindel, Gandalf and a bunch of elves.
The problems would start on the boat. Lots of powerful people in a confined space with an Artifact of Doom tempting them.
It would be less of an epic adventure and more of a psychological thriller. And I bet that the ship would never make to Valinor, the ring corrupting everyone as they start to backstab each other.
Aule trained Sauron, he enabled him - he is responsible for undoing the mess - end of story - The One Ring goes back and it is unforged by him End Of Story - Cirdan! UPS Package for Aule in Valinor - tuit suite!!
Valinor is too nice for industrial deconstruction? TOUGH!! Should have taken Sauron Back and give him some Morgo-Chain Time (tm) for an age or two....
corrupt valinororian elves / maia? See above: Deliver directly to Aule - he would be happy to undo what essential was his empowering of his pupil -
road to cirdan? Glorfindel witha 100 elder age noldori escort it and bord ship with cirdan as guards against nazgul if they come for it
Where does it say Aule “trained” or “enabled” Sauron?
Could the influence of the one ring corrupt one of the other Valar? Together they might be wise enough to not fall for it. They won't be always together. Sauron and Melkor poured a lot of power into their works of evil. The ring might like a new fresh power. If the ring tried to go there, it really shouldn't.
Eternity is a long time. Perhaps Eru himself would become corrupted over a millennia. Eru likely sees himself as being uncoruptable so he would probably not change or destroy the ring to make a statement.
Eru is God; by definition he isn’t corruptible. But also he’s not in Arda.
Another interesting thought: couldn't the Valar put the Ring into the same vault in the Halls of Mandos where they kept Melkor? Melkor couldn't escape, he only got out because They let him out. If the most powerfull being in Ea can't get out, Sauron couldn't get in even if he'd be able to muster enough strength to assault Valinor
That still wouldn’t solve the problem since Sauron could conquer Middle-earth without the Ring.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Yeah, also, from simply a narrative standpoint, we wouldn't have a compelling story. I think there is a danger in over-analyzing and overtheorizing Tolkien's works especially from a plot point perspective and assessing if it holds up purely logically. It's completely contrary to how wer're supposed to think and feel about these stories. It's more about how does it move you emotionally and what delight does it give you rather than theory and mechanical worldbuilding. On the intellectual side i find that the abstractions and the metaphysical implications are the most interesting, as to what kind of representations we're dealing with in Tolkien's imagination derived from the primary to his secondary world.
@@maxion5109 - To paraphrase Tolkien, the Valar and Eru are dangerous machines. Having Manwë in the form of a eagle (invincible to orc arrows and flying Nazgûl, as well as the corrupting influence of the One Ring makes almost as poor (and non-Catholic) of a story as getting out the skyhooks, pulleys, and ropes and lowering Eru down in a basket to simply vanish the One Ring and Sauron from Middle Earth.
Of course you're right in that point. Just to complete the options one might think through.
I think the 'how to deal with the ring' question is a coming of age test for the race of men. 'Earn your inheritance' so to speak...
I think your logic is sound. They were looking for the most direct method of destruction. Valinor wasn't as direct as Mordor simply because they risked interception.
The Valar learned by experience that they couldn't overcome evil by force. First time they tried the wrecked Arda and destroyed the pillars and the lamps. But failed. The second time they sent Ëonwe and destroyed Beleriand. The third time they sent Frodo. Evil had to be overcome by a moral act: by faith, hope, and pity.
I don't think it was the Valar who chose Frodo. But they did send the Istari - not to pit their strength against Sauron, but to inspire, advise, and assist the free peoples.
It was never even guaranteed that the Ring could be taken to Mithlond.
Could the Great Eagles fly the One Ring to Mithlond? 😉😉😉😉😉😉
It's such an odd question. Where's the conflict that a story demands in fobbing off the ring on Valinor? It a High Noon scenario and you have to man up, dare boldly and take your place in the arena.
How are the gods to respect the easy way out? Where's the honor and dignity in that?
The one thing that has always seemed odd to me was how Elrond, who has never been in the West, knows they "would not receive it" & Glorfindel, who has, thinks that is a possible solution.
Glorfindel is a cool dude, but Elrond is still the wiser of the two I think.
@@TolkienLorePodcast very true.
There is also the bit where the Valar’s brilliant plan to save Middle Earth involved forcing his parents to permanently abandon him to the mercy of infamous murderers. Kinda reasonable that he’s loathe to ask them for help before having at least tried to solve this problem themselves.
Besides, Elrond is living proof that “insurmountable odds” are usually not in fact so insurmountable. He only exists because of people daring impossible odds and overcoming them “as little might be thought”.
One would think that the Istari would have been briefed by Manwë if the Valar did not consider bringing the One Ring back to Valinor to be destroyed acceptable (presumably Gandalf informed the Valar by Great Eagle Post that the One Ring had been found).
One comment, if Aule couldn't destroy the ring. would it be possible for Manwe to invoke Illuvatar? I am pretty sure he can destroy it.
Topic: Do all maia necessarily reform after their "fake" bodies being killed, as a general rule, or is this just for Sauron alone because the One Ring exists? I've heard people attribute both at different times to Sauron to explain his resurrections.
As far as I can remember, Sauron is the only Maia ever to suffer death, so I’m not sure we have a way to definitively answer that question, but given what we know about Morgoth and Sauron, I think we can surmise that as a rule, any of the Ainur could in principle make whatever body they want even after death but for some act of their own that makes their physical form more permanent.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Balrogs, Saruman, Thurigwethil? and thanks :)
None of those have any real history past their death so they don’t add any real data though lol. The implication for Saruman seems to be that his rebellion has landed him in a state where he can’t even take form again, but that’s just my guess. Balrogs might be in the same boat. Thuringwethil might be as well, but again the problem is we get no follow-up data on any of them.
@@TolkienLorePodcast I think somewhere in HoME I recall the professor saying that Maiar like Balrogs could become so wedded to a particular form that they lost the ability, or willingness, to cast it off at will. What happens to Balrogs when their body is destroyed is anyone's guess, but since we never get any hint of one ever returning after being killed, my guess is that they have lost the ability to create new bodies as well. I think we're explicitly told that Sauron lost the power to create a new body at will because he had put so much of his native power into the Ring. The Istari lost that ability because of the circumstances of their incarnation, which is why Gandalf had to be _sent_ back, he couldn't make a new body himself. The really interesting question for me is why Gandalf left the world when his body was destroyed, as opposed to staying in the world bodiless and impotent like Sauron, and presumably Saruman, did.
Or Gimli actually being able to destroy the ring with his axe.
There's also another reason. The Ring wants to go east
Seems to me that since Sauron was an Ainur, you could defend taking the One ring back to Valinor by saying you're just returning the problem to it's source. Humans, eves or dwarves didn't create this ring, why should they be held responsible for destroying it?
Do not think it was that hollow of a place since melkor and ungoliant had the run of the place.
Nice video!
There's an argument to be made that the Valar (and to a lesser extent the Maiar) are partially responsible for the troubles in Middle Earth. Not through their action, but their inaction. After all, it was one of their ranks, Melkor, who started all the trouble in the first place, and they had huge, long stretches of time where they sat on their hands in Valinor and did nothing while Melkor festered in Middle Earth, even though they were capable of going to Middle Earth and collectively defeating Melkor. Plus, they made the decision to set Melkor free, even after they had defeated him once and brought him in chains back to Valinor. And then Sauron was just a byproduct of Melkor's malcontent, and the Valar could have probably pretty easily dispatched of Sauron.
Think of what power the ring has bound together. Three rings for elves, Seven for Dwarves, Nine for Men. Sauron by binding part of himself to things that are bound to Middle Earth bound himself to Middle Earth. Just as Men can't go to Valinor, neither can something bound to them go there. The elves bound themselves to Middle Earth by instantiating the rings and they would dwindle to nothingness through their pride in trying to "possess" realms in Middle Earth. The Dwarves were always part of Middle Earth.
Except the bearers of the Three do go to the West, with their Rings.
@@TolkienLorePodcast true, but the three have presumably “failed” at that time as the one has been unmade. So I think the argument survives that counterpoint
How about a different tack where the reason we need to destroy the Ring of Sauron is to destroy the Taint of Sauron on Eru's creation.
Now the parallel is Melkor who put his evil power into Arda and it weakened him but changed Arda to serve him.
Sauron is not on the level of Melkor, but is it possible the idea of all his power being used to corrupt the land would not go away unless he was defeated.
Also, the fact that Sauron is NOT on the level of the Valar may mean that a Maiar level response would be preferable.
(Or you just give the ring to Tulkas & hope he doesn't fall asleep. Does Tulkas falling asleep resemble the idea of Tom forgetting. Not saying. Just it's fun)
I dont think Auele can destroy the ring as the ring although created by Sauron is a manifestation or a product of Morgoth as it was created on Mount Doom. That is why Mount Doom is the only place that can be destroyed. Even if he can destroy the ring through pure force, the destruction would likely result in a sinking of more than a continent or two.
Sending to the west would also destroy the narrative structure as the age of the valar is over. This is a challenge for men to prove themselves worthy to inherit the world.If the valar had to step in every time then the age of men will never truly begin.
Didn't eru say the Valar should have acted sooner against melkor? I believe somewhere in The History of Middle Earth?
I remember reading that somewhere as well although I don't recall where now.
The Valar do not want to corrupt their own society with the ring
I think one of the big reasons is that IF the Valar won't take the ring, or can't destroy it, or it just takes a long time, Sauron will win before the rings is destroyed or, if it cannot be destroyed, you just lost your only chance. Yes, Sauron is never getting the ring, but he won't NEED it to conquer Middle Earth.
Also, I personally don't think the road to the sea would be much harder than to the Old Forest. All the extra distance is through the Shire (ok, that is other problems) and then the Tower hills and to Lindon. (Elvish lands) The big danger in going west lies in the fact they can easily get ambushed in Rhudaur or by the Weather hills. Once they reach Bree it is safer.
Though, honestly, I think the Sea road is still easier than Moria/Mordor.
@@Trigm The Shire is dangerous to traverse, since one gets waylaid by second breakfast and ale in the tavern.
So why not just fly to Mount Doom on the back of an Eagle and chuck the ring in.
Why didn't Elrond take the ring from Isuldur and destroy it when he refused if Elrond was so sure the ring was that bad?
That would have been the worst thing to do. Remember what Gandalf says about the importance of Bilbo beginning his ownership with an act of pity.
what about throwing it into the Sea under the guard of Ulmo
Even worse! Sauron couldn’t be defeated that way, and it would merely put the means of doing so out of reach of the free peoples.
@@TolkienLorePodcast OK. But after the Battle of Pelenor fields and victory of Galadriel and Thranduil in the North, Sauron would've been isolated. And maybe Saruman would've repented, because no ring would be available for him.
The victory against Dol Guldur came after the destruction of the Ring so its not clear it would have happened otherwise. Also we know Sauron’s forces were still overwhelming regardless.
Well... then you could save the effort and give it to Osse instead who already once nearly went over to Melkors side.
What if someone in Middle-Earth had invented rocketry and sent the ring into orbit? Or beyond orbit even? Presumably chemistry works in Middle-Earth, so in principle, wouldn't it have been possible? Don't say, "Er no, they didn't develop that tech." I'm saying, *in principle* it may have been physically possible. No?
In principle yes, but the objection would be the same as dropping it in the ocean.
The rings of power are an Elf problem. the forgers of the great rings were Elves and were the ones duped into creating them. Yet the elves did “shirk” their duty to deal with the One Ring. That the Vala refused to deal directly with the problem created by one of their own, indicates that their power in middle earth has been seriously curtailed.; and in fact are not able to help. When Valinor was removed from Arda by Iluvatar at the destruction of Numenor, the Vala had laid down their stewardship. What seems likely is that no Elf ship carrying the One Ring could ever find the “straight” course. The history of Middle Earth indicates that the Great are really piss poor at dealing with crises. Witness the Lamps, The Two Trees, The war of the Silmarils, The War of Wrath, The invasion of Valinor by the Numenoreans, and it goes on and on. It took humble hobbits to resolve the problems that the great elves and the great Ainur couldn’t.
I thought the Ring was bound to Arda.
It would be like God allowing Satan and his demons return to the Heavens and corrupt more angels.
Before one minute mark.
Glorfindel. 1) ND are two consonants 2) they are not "muta cum liquida" or highly similar (BL, GL, BR, DR, GR, PL, CL, PR, TR, CR; FL, FR, THR) - what does this suggest about the accented syllable as being?
I'm sorry, but having taught languages ...
Did I emphasize GLOR? Must’ve slipped lol
hmmm…
correct conclusion, incorrect reasoning. The correct syllable breakdown here is actually “Glór-find-el” rather than “Glór-fin-del”. Sindarin allows consonant clusters in coda position and the relevant stem is “find-“.
However, whether there is or is not a consonant cluster is irrelevant for stress in Sindarin. It’s always on the penultimate syllable regardless. So yes “glórFINDel” not “GLÓRfindel”.
@@golwenlothlindel what’s your source for those rules?
Its something strange to me. Sauron is maiar so its problem of ainur, hes notm belong to middleearth so valar should destroy their kin and should not leave middleearth almost at their own...
seems like the valar dropped the ball on this. sauron was their responsibility and so would the ring be. why couldnt the ring be sent into the void like melkor was?
Why?
@@TolkienLorePodcast cause Sauron is one of them. If your child or kin was terrorizing your neighborhood, it isn't the neighborhoods job to stop the kid. It's YOURS as either the parent or kinfolk.
Sauron isn’t a child. I’m not my parents’ responsibility once I’m an adult.
@@TolkienLorePodcast it is if any adult authorities can't take care of you. The police don't go after the hulk when he rampages. That's what other superheroes are for. Local police don't travel to Russia when a violent criminal goes there. They get the fbi or us marshalls to do it cause they can handle that. Middle earth didn't make the ring. Sauron did. And it was the valar that let it happen
But as the Last Alliance and LOTR prove, “other authorities” *can* take care of Sauron, so your analogy doesn’t carry over.
Yas.
The only logical explanation is Eru telling Melkor that even his corruption was part of the greater good. Every other explanation falls apart.
Fallen Valar and Maiar are an Ainur problem. The children of Eru didn't create that problem. The path west being watched shouldn't scare elves since they'd be on Ulmo's home turf and are headed that way anyways.
Also, Valinor has tanked greater evil than the ring. In the past, Valinor was scared to wage war on Middle Earth because of the damage that it would cause. They could've destroyed Sauron far away from M.E. but didn't.
This entire trilogy could've been written as a war to get the ring to Valinor instead of Mordor and it would've still worked thematically. The excuses these books give don't work without a lot of head canon.
Your counter arguments are head canon dude.
@@TolkienLorePodcast You sure you wanna go down this road, because everything that described is in the lore?
Except not. Melkor’s discord is not “part of the greater good,” but rather only resounds to glory of the whole music because Eru works it into his theme. The westward road being watched is not the sea, but the road from Rivendell to the Havens, as shown by context. Valinor never “tanked” any evil like the Ring before. And finally, we have no reason to think the Valar could have ever destroyed Sauron away from Middle-earth since he was in Middle-earth as long as he was corrupt to the best of our knowledge, apart from a very brief stint in Numenor.
@@TolkienLorePodcast You can tell the amateur Tolkien students from serious students simply from their ability to admit that Tolkien's works aren't perfect.
Like I said, Tolkien covers his ass with typical "God works in mysterious ways bullshit". If you try to make more sense of these events than even Tolkien could, you are on a dark path because some of the criticisms of Tolkien include subjects such as race worship.
@@TolkienLorePodcast You have a lot of balls to call yourself "Tolkien Lore" without knowing that Eru told Melkor that his discord was just another instrument in Eru's song (aka Arda).
Maybe you should stfu and reread the Silmirillion.
I disagree. It was worth the trip just to ask if the Valar could or would destroy the Ring, and if not, just sail it back. Since Sauron ain't got shit on the likes of Aule or Manwe, I don't see the Ring tempting them at all.
As for it being the easy way out, I 100% don't care. And there are so many routes West even Sauron can't watch them all.
But what if Sauron won by the time you got back? Pretty big risk to take.
@@TolkienLorePodcast It took more than a year to shift the ring from Bag End to Mt Doom anyway, and everyone from Gandalf down is not shy of admitting what a big risk that plan was (when they don't think they might be overheard by enemy spies).
Now I'm not a Gandalf or CoE basher, I think the Mt Doom play is the second best option they have, especially since Gandalf knows how tough (certain) Hobbits are to corrupt and also about Sauron's blind spot wrt destroying the Ring - but I do think Tolkien, you, and many other people make too much of the pure notion of taking responsibility.
IMO the matter of the Ring isn't about responsibility, it's about defanging Sauron, and the sooner the better. Task focus FTW.
The time from Shire to Mt. Doom isn’t relevant; Rivendell to Mt. Doom is what matters. That’s only 3 months. But even from the Shire it’s 6 months, not a year, once they actually set out. As for task focus, the only certain way to defang Sauron is to destroy the Ring, and the only certain way to do that is at Mt. Doom. So yeah, they were pretty focused.
@@TolkienLorePodcast Nothing certain about it, just because Sauron is a dolt on this one matter, but nvm
Because then you don't have a story.
Hey never been first can’t wait