R-12 to R152a (Dustoff) Conversion For An Old Car Air Conditioning System With A POA Valve
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- Опубликовано: 28 июл 2024
- In this video I will go into detail my attempts to convert a 1972 Buick GS, originally an R-12 AC system to a R152a canned air (Dustoff) system. I will show you the failed and successful attempts, the pressures associated with those attempts as well as the final cooling temps (or lack there of).
Dustoff is rated as mildly flammable so this experiment is not without risk, please understand that there is some risk involved with this conversion.
I plan to have future videos posted of this system to show how it performs in the heat of the summer as well as how long it will last between top-off charges.
Follow the progress of this Buick and get some behind the scenes content on Instagram @72GS455
72gs455ree...
Chapters"
0:00 Intro
2:16 Parts and tools
4:18 Disassembly of system
7:50 AC System Flush Procedure
9:25 Adding Refrigerant Oil to A6 Compressor
10:51 Vacuuming the AC System Down
11:15 Tapping the Dustoff Can and Charging the System
15:39 Compressed can LIFT-OFF!!!
17:00 First test of the AC System with the R152A charge
17:48 POA Failure
18:36 Results from first test with POA valve stuck
19:06 My analysis of the failure and my path foreword
21:00 We have cooling, but system is overcharged
22:05 Results of first test drive, similar to R134a, results are getting better
22:58 Loud Thunder!
25:00 Pressure readings from first test
26:06 How to adjust a POA valve for R152a or R134a
28:22 Max heat load test with final POA pressure
28:57 Final Pressure readings
29:27 Final Test Drive and Temp Reading
30:36 Closing and future plans with testing system
The idea for this conversion came from a friend of mine who learned it from the RX7 forum and converted his own car: www.rx7club.com/2nd-generatio...
As well as a fellow Buick owner who has done this to several of his own cars and has some youtube videos on it. Check out his page here; / davida1hiwaaynet 
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Great video! Going to be attempting the same thing soon. The word instructions on forums helps, but videos like this are what you really need. Thank you!
Thanks man, I'm glad it helps and I hope the conversion works out for you.
This is awesome dude! Great video
Thanks, I appreciate it and am super excited about my cheap ac. :)
Great info on using air duster cans on older r12 systems. It beats using dangerous propane as a replacement. One thing I spotted though @17:21 your a/c belt has too much wobble/play. It needs to be adjusted and tighten. Thanks for the video.
Haha... thanks Miller...that old 350 is long gone though, I put a fresh 455 in it over the winter and now that belt may be too tight because it screams when I punch the throttle. :)
Update... it was actually also loose ... it needed something like 80 pounds of pressure to reach spec... way more than I expected.
7th like full play. Nice job on all the attempts. Most people never try great job. Really like the color of the Buick. Have a great day!
Thanks, so far so good. It's in the 90s here already and I can still cruise. :)
Over pressure can cause s massive damage as well as excessive heat. It’s very important to understand that r12, r134a and r152a pressures are all different at different temps.
And this is exactly why I ran this test to find the right pressure for R152a. Nobody has a manual written on how to do this because it's so uncommon. I did this test to show others.
Fantastic video
Thanks Mikel... glad you liked it.
Dude thank you so much this is such a great video
Thanks, it's still going strong... I top the system off about twice a year.
Fantastic video! I'm restoring a 1985 Toyota Celica Supra, and I'm thinking about doing this with the AC
Thanks. I've topped it off every 6 months since making this video and it still works.
Love that tee!
Haha... I try to wear it whenever I do Buick Videos. It's one of my favorite.
Hi Jack, thanks for sharing your detailed procedure on charging dusters. I lived in Hong Kong and managed to get 10kg packages(like repair shop size freon cans) from China. The reason to charge with R152a was because I wanted to improve AC cooling ability when my car parked under the sun at 100F or more(interior temp. probably more than 130F). And my conversion was on R134a European cars. The performance is satisfying and the car blows much colder when on highway. But since my hometown is no more a suitable place to live in so I left and here we don't have duster...
Anyhow, I believe adjusting the thermal expansion valve will help, but on modern cars they are built in next to the evaporator so it is very hard to make fine adjustment. It would be great if you can make a video on charging a car with R134a system by using R152a....
Hello Mr. Cheung I am glad you liked my video. I do have an older car that runs on 134a but I dont wish any I'll fate on it just yet as the AC works just fine. Cheers.
@@JackofAllTrades1 LOL I shouldn't have asked you to make video on R134a cars. It is such a pain to troubleshot AC problems. But at the end of the day, it is a wise move for you because R152a swells the o-rings the LEAST among other refrigerant and hopefully your Buick AC will last much longer than the old system.
@@knk3220 it works in my 134 cars, I’ve done it
@@ZhmiKnopa Hi Richi - how much less 152 did you use in your 134 system? my car uses 20oz R134a
@@antikdeela5625 I converted from R12, kept the classic system. I have no idea what the conversion rate is but 36oz of 152 runs 40° out the vents
I can’t remember if you discussed this but here are the refrigerant capacity conversions.
R134a total capacity X .64 = 152a capacity
R12 total capacity X .56 = 152a capacity.
With the correct amount on an orifice tube system I was averaging 25 on low and about 125 on high. Worked great.
I had originally planned to discuss this but found that putting that much 152a in my system was way too much, so I scrapped the idea. I think it works better for folks who have 134a systems though. I only ended up with about 16oz in my system when it normally took over 4lbs of R12. Thanks for the comment.
@@JackofAllTrades1 4lb of r12 is 64oz, multiply by 0.56 is 35.84oz of r152a.
To make it work, you have to use compressor oil that will circulate with r152a and remove non-condensable moisture and air using a deep vacuum using a real hvac vacuum pump to under 29 inches of mercury.
The moisture will interfere with the compression/expansion cycle and combine with the gasses/oil to create acids which will corrode the system internally over time.
@@thisisyourcaptainspeaking2259 I had this ac chilling down to 36 degrees...I feel it really doesn't take that much. I tried to put the correct converted amount into my system and my compressor was having a hard time with it. I bled off several Oz and it worked just fine. I think a little over one 16oz can will do the trick.
@@JackofAllTrades1 You will want to have oil circulating through the system, if your compressor suction line is "beer can cold" at the compressor, there is enough refrigerant circulating to carry the oil with it. I find my 1995 gm v5 compressor actually sweats condensated water on it's exterior with r152a.
Also, you don't want to see ice forming anywhere, this indicates insufficient refrigerant flow to carry the compressor oil back to the compressor. The oil gets trapped in the cold locations and just sits there.
The oil must remain miscible in the refrigerant to move the oil around the system, it's part of the balancing act.
@@JackofAllTrades1 And I tend to agree, the conversion factor seems to be off, that could be system dependant to some extent.
Suffice it to say, the compressor suction line should be chilled, this indicates the evaporator isn't being starved. The temperature of the compressor discharge line must not climb too high or damage will begin to occur, the oil can break down, hoses damaged, etc.
It's a balancing act.
Hi bro this good freon for exchenge R-134a i used in car in cars with a small engine capacity, as it needs to be smaller in volume and there is no load on the engine when the air conditioner is running!
Im in the beginning stages of this. Very interesting.👍 My 93 K1500 calls for 2 cans of R12. I Have 3... but first I was thinking about doing this first..to test my system. If it actually works I might save or sell my R12.👍 oh btw... 3 cans of duster sounds like to much.
Yea it was way too much. I was using an online calculator I found and it wasn't right. I'd start with 1 can and work my way up a couplenoz at a time... you will know when you hit paydirt when you smell that wonderful dehumidified air. :)
I see you have worse cooling at a stop. I had the same in my '66 Oldsmobile (also w/ R152A) and I realized that my condenser is offset from the radiator, with open sides and bottom, allowing the air sucked by the engine fan to bypass the condenser. I put some high temperature foam in the gaps and now I get a ton of airflow through the condenser at all times, with much better cooling while at a stop.
That's an awesome tip man and something I can likely do and it won't be noticeable visually but improve performance. Thank you
Thanks for the video. I would have been checking the pressures before dumping all the cans in. May i suggest you adjust your rocker arms. Sounds quite rattly
This engine is a Buick 350... you can't adjust buick rocker arms. Check out my newer videos, I have a different engine now.
16:04 lmao how dare you
I'm seriously a hazard to myself lol
I have done this many times with R-12 systems like this- 24oz of R1-52 is all that is needed- otherwise you overcharge your system. It is a great way to replace r-12.. R-134 sucks for the r-12 systems
So true Rick, I'm now cruising in the summer heat when I never used to be able to. Thanks for the comment.
I did this on my 97 Corolla and got 40° outlet temps!
Nice... what was in it to start with? R143a?
It doesn’t look like you bleed the lines before you fill the system, you might get better performance if you do. Just remove the low-side line each time you connect a can, and flow some 152 through to flush out the oxygen before you reattach the low fitting.
I def bled the redridgerant lines, it would be a mistake not to. I don't recall how much detail I went into (if any) on that. Thanks for bringing it up for others though... it's an important step.
High side PSI(PSIG/Gauge Pressure) for pure r152a is 10-12% lower than r134a. 80F about 155 to 180. Low side can be 30% less than r134a but I think the evaporator valve needs to be adjusted & not really necessary if using r152a drop in replacement for r134a. Both these refrigerants can be mixed in any ratio.
Thanks for the additional info.
Reading your previous comments, I see that you need to recharge your system every once in awhile. Have you determined where the leak is? Ive seen that the molecule size on R152A is substantially smaller than R134A which is already small for a R12 system. I want to attempt a full R152A system on my 280z
@MySuperky I think it's the hoses... it just leaches out of them over time because they are made for r12, which is a large molecule. It's a pretty slow loss but enough that my charge only lasts a portion of the year.
I did this in my truck last year. My friend thought I was an idiot until he saw I was getting 38 degree air while driving in South Alabama during August 😂😂😂
We drank a chitload of beer while I fixed his system. He now enjoys cold air. I say fuk R134.
I had some nay sayers as well....”but you gotta top off every year” ... it really only takes 10 min to top off and at 3 to 4 bucks a year.... I’m all in lol
If you make the transition from 134 to 152, it is significantly cheaper, since 152 Freon should be 60% less in volume than 134a
Yea 152a is only 3 bucks a can so year it will be at least half the cost.... at least.
@@JackofAllTrades1 In my country i bay 10 kg R-152a cilinder price only 50 usd this very nice for my job
Price this now. Thanks to Sleepy Joe Biden. Do you like your $5 buck a gallon gas now people? Brandon gets free gas so he doesn't have to pay for it like WE do.
I've been doing this for years now on several vehicles. For best results I replace the drier after i remove all the 134a and then vacuum pump the system, I always add a couple ounces of Pag oil. Also the pressures are a little different than stock specs, maybe because the 152a gas compresses at a different rate, anyway it takes a little messing with and typically the systems take a little less 152a than 134a.
That's awesome, do you have to top off the systems much? I figured I may have some leak out on the hoses since the molecules are much smaller.
@@JackofAllTrades1 On my Lexus no I don't have to top off, but on my RV I put a can in every year, but at about $3 I don't care.
@@tonyinfinity your Lexus is probably a 134a system right? And RV probably R12 or R22? From what I rrad the molecule from 152a is small, much smaller than R12 so it will leach through those hoses faster. It's smaller than 134a as well but the difference is not that great.
@@JackofAllTrades1 Both are 134a and have been doing great for the last couple years on the duster. I had a 96 Honda Accord that needed to be topped off every year but got so cold it would ice up the windshield on defrost. I think the older the vehicle and lines you're sure to have more little leaks, but since it's so cheap I don't mind topping them off and it's better for the environment so that's a plus. My buddies car has a leak in the evaporator I think because you can smell it when he has the air on, and has to top it off every couple months. lol I told him I won't ride in it, and offered to change it to duster for him but he refuses. You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink
@@tonyinfinity haha ... yea, the fact that I could dump this refrigerant into the air without impact is what helped me figure out the pressures when I played around with it. Hopefully this stuff doesn't get banned as it becomes more popular.
do i have to change all the lines or just run s vacuum on the system? thanks in advance
I didn't change any lines. Just pull a good vacuum and make sure you bleed the yellow charging line with the 152a to get the air out. Good luck.
@@JackofAllTrades1 thanks god bless
I wonder if you've pulled a vacuum to remove non-condensable gasses such as air/moisture and just as important, flushed out the original mineral oil and replenished that with PAG150 to lubricate that old A2 compressor? The original mineral oil won't circulate with r152a I believe, compressor won't be lubricated?
I'm not sure... I never considered it wouldn't circulate. What would be the cause? Because the r152a molecule is much smaller? I plan to top it off again and see how it does after a long winter of no use.
@@JackofAllTrades1 According to what I think I know, the original mineral oil won't mix with r152a, it just lays in the low spots and sits there. The same is true with r134a and mineral oil. Mineral oil isn't compatible with PAG oil but it is compatible with POE compressor oil. That is, mineral and PAG will become a jell when mixed.
If the system was correctly converted to r134 at some point, it will have been flushed, dryer replaced, and either PAG or POE compressor oil installed. The r152a is compatible with PAG and POE, both will circulate with r152a to lubricate the compressor.
If you ever see grey/black contaminated oil in your system, this indicates the compressor has been damaged due to lack of lubrication. Metal dust fragments floating in the oil turn it this color. This must all be flushed to avoid clogging the expansion device and ruining compressor with the abrasive debris.
At the risk of getting yelled at for playing mad scientist and not really knowing what the hell I'm doing, I will say the R152A works great in old R12 systems...BUT...with 2 or 3 ounces of propane mixed in it gets even colder...significantly colder. Pure propane doesn't work well because the pressures are just too high..some people do it but I wouldn't recommend it myself, while others make a propane/isobutane blend with better pressure results but I tried an 85/15 blend of propane and isobutane and wasn't really impressed with the results. I actually had much better results using R152A/propane blend. Using only about 50% of original R12 charge with R152A (system calls for 48 ounces of R12 so I used two 12oz cans of R152A), my pressures were substantially lower than they were with the R134A conversion I had originally done, allowing me to add a little shot of propane (benzomatic torch propane) to the system and still keep the pressures where they needed to be. While not as massively cold as pure propane I would assume it's much safer being far less flammable of a mixture and much lower pressures. Not recommending anyone try this, just sharing my experiences. Stay cool!
Interesting, I was getting temps down into the mid 30s through the central vent with just R152A.... I think you are really pushing the limits with what's possible. You may freeze up your condenser.
That can had quite a bit left in it LOL RIFLMAO..........
Any long term updates?
@mikelezcurra810 still works great. Somwtimes POA gets stuck and I have to tap it with a wooden handle... not sure if that's just my ride, though. I've had to top it all every year, and this most recent year the car sat 8 months, and I had to completely Evac and recharge, but it has always come back to life. These duster cans used to be 4 bucks each...they've almost tripled in price, I wish that didn't change.
I just starting to venture into 152r . My gauges are a bit hard to read at the psi they are at. I am guessing 30 ish psi on the low and 170 ish on the high. Current temp is 50 degrees at idle. In cab. outside temp is 89. My question is should i release some psi to lower temp. ? I started with one can (10oz) then added another (10oz)
I would release a burst (about a second) and remeasure your temp. If it goes down then you are heading in the right direction. If you can get into the upper 30s then stop... don't risk freezing up the evap cause you'll have to start over (I know this cause I got greedy at 36 degrees lol). Good luck.
@JackofAllTrades1 so basically lowering the psi will make it cooler?
@taps_1021 yes. Mine was about 26psi on the low end but everybody's setup will be different. I started with way too much and had to come down quite a bit. If you put in 10oz and then another 10oz without stepping up to the total 20oz you have in it, then you really don't know for sure if it needs more or less. I'm inclined to believe you need less though. I was at about 17 Oz at my coolest.
I will also add that you need to test it out while driving at cruising speed. You are gonna have a lot more heat soaking at idle and while sitting still. You may get cooler temps while moving. If you have 40 degrees at idle but it dips down to 32 at cruise then that won't work.
@@JackofAllTrades1 thank you for the reply 👌
What happens if R152a gas starts to leak into the enclosed passenger compartment (faulty evaporator)?
It's gonna stink in there from the added bitterant. The air might taste bad as well... I wouldn't say it would be lethal but you'd probably want to roll down the window until it was bled out.
@@JackofAllTrades1 The car is in a parking lot. An explosive mixture may be formed?
@@flashboot no, its really hard to light. It would take a lot. I tried to light it with a propane torch and couldn't get it to.
@@JackofAllTrades1 My car needs 750gr R134a gas and Pag46 oil. R152a gas approx. 350gr. According to them, it cannot cause an explosion. This is good news.
@@flashboot good to hear!
Well, from what I've seen mineral oil is the oil to use. Same as R-12 systems. Where did you hear not to use mineral oil? You're adding liquid from the bottom of the can? Into the low side or high side? I've always read to add gas from the top of the can into the low pressure side. POA valves I've never seen. Old stuff. Thermostats are more common.
Hopefully you can see this link. My original forum find was on a Torinado chat thread, but I also used this one from a corvette forum to come to the conclusion to use Ester oil. Mineral oil is only partially soluble, so it may work . www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.corvetteforum.com/forums/c4-tech-performance/3665425-using-r-152a-dust-off-for-a-c-refrigerant.html&ved=2ahUKEwj_tKnUpe2FAxVsaDABHegbDSsQFnoECDEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2xZcJ52F65fc2oWW0_bPL0
@@JackofAllTrades1 That thread said the R-152 was 8% less efficient at cooling than R-134. Which conflicts with other videos where it says it's more efficient. I may go with Envirosafe. Since it's definitely compatible with mineral oil. Thanks for the info.
@tedstriker754 yea, I think everybody was experimenting and guessing with it. This is still widely unused in these types of AC systems.... but I've ran it every year since and it has no real issues. I have to top it off once a year, and get about 45 degrees out of my center vent.
@@JackofAllTrades1 For just adding some to an existing system it's nice to have something to just dump in without having to do a flush. But if that day comes, I'd use R152a and ester oil. I've always read ester is compatible with all types of refrigerants.
@@tedstriker754 yea. I like that it's easy to come by... for now. Who knows when the EPA will change their mind.
If you are concerned about the flammability of r152a it is categorized as a class A2 whereas the epa approved r1234yf is class A2L (more flammable).
I think more than anything I just wanted to dispell some concerns over it being like propane. It would take a lot for this stuff to burn and by no means turns your car into a bomb. There was a lot of discussion on this in a few AC forums so I needed to see it for myself.
I'm guessing that your car takes about 2.5lbs of r-12, which means it'll take about 19-20oz. of r152
That's pretty spot on. For this year's charge (I have to charge every summer) I put a whole 10oz can in and about half of another... I feel like I could probably get some better cooling if I add just a tad bit more which would be close to your estimate.
Those seat belts, on the roof........ Hmmm. Where do we start on this?
That's how it was done in the late 60s and early 70s before the shoulder belt was required.
This is way over charged. I think it should take around 12oz of refrigerant. If this is “getting better over time”, you likely have a leak. In HVAC, more is definitely not better. You can actually calculate the pressures on the high side/low side to properly charge this system.
Hello, yes it was way over charged at first... not sure how much of the video you watched but I think I ended up with about 15oz total... it took some trial and error. Still holding strong all these months later. Thanks for the comment.
My ‘87 Cougar takes 3 cans to run 40 degrees
Yea, they call it a temp/pressure chart.
You only charge at roughly 60% of the capacity. R152a has less volume.
It actually ended a lot less than that to cool down to 35 degrees. I was surprised. It took a whole can and just a couple oz of the next to get there.
lol based
yeah
if u have an original r12 A6 based system than yes everything will work nice
BUT I have tried this same set up up with multiple r12 and r134 systems
some are great and others are on that phaggytime
I guess I got lucky that mine wasn't that much trouble. Seems like you just have to play around with the amount you put in until it works or you have to adjust the expansion valve or port to get the right pressure.
YES SAFETY GLASSES AND GLOVES PEOPLE.......
Dude, you better shut that guzzler down quick. Gas is $7.50 a gallon in California.
It gets less than 10mpg lol... I can only consider it a toy at this point.
Engine sounds terrible. Lifters are rattling. Using that crap Amsoil junk I see. Stuff that last 25,000 miles LOL.
It probably is the lifters since the rockers are non adjustable... its the only place their can be slack. This 350 is out of the car now though.
Such over kill.
I totally agree. Hopefully people learn from my errors. Hindsight, instead of putting that much in and bleeding off pressure... I should have started low and worked my way up. It certainly took way less than the conversion formula told me to put in. Thanks for dropping in.
@@JackofAllTrades1 I haven't done the math on R152 but back of envelope says Half the weight of R12. So if your car says 2lbs R12 then 1lbs R152 and honestly no real need to vacuum.
for a car never use more than 10 oz. never, more is not better
Right now mine gets the best cooling with a little less than 2 - 8oz cans... so probably close to 14oz. So far no issues... I suspect this varies for every car type.