Avoid phase problems: Set Latency Compensation in Pro Tools in Hybrid Mixing with analog gear
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- Опубликовано: 6 сен 2024
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This is literally the ONLY video I've found that has sufficiently explained this issue and how to fix it. Thank you so much!
Holy crap I think I finally fixed my hardware delays because of this video!!!! I did what someone else said below: I noted the Length of samples between dry and processed tracks. It might not be exact but I'm not hearing the crazy phasing anymore when I parallel process! Thank you so much!
Best, most concise, not confusing video on this subject that I've seen. Finally!
true. +1
@MixbusTv It's not just sample rate that you must calculate for. Your hardware buffer size messes up the calculation if you change it at any time during a session. So there are two variables which would cause you to have to recalculate: a different sample right OR a different HW buffer size.
Yes if course your buffer size affects it, but I never change it, I don't track.
Great video, I find that one of the fastest ways for getting the delay time is using identify sync point on a transient with tab to transient, then making a selection between the transients (the delay) and finally checking the actual length on the counter, which can be set either to samples or milliseconds.
thats another way to find the delay, but I think could be a mismatch if you are selecting in grid or slip mode, sorry for my bad english Im from mexico
Here's the math (for me next time I need to remember how to do this): SAMPLES/48000(or your sample rate) * 1000. THANK YOU FOR THIS!
💡Bro explanation is way better than. What avid has in the manual they owe u !
Exactly what I was after. Thanks dude :)
man! This opened my eyes. sat up all night testing stuff. thanks alot!
Wow. Must have read my mind, David. Just the video I needed. I've just started building a rack set for outboard gear and have been having a hell of a time calculating hardware latency in Bitwig. Definitely different process than in ProTools, but the principles are the same. Thanks for this video. Will really help in making the most out of my stereo compressor!
Awsome David! I always feel like learning in a sane way with your tuto!
Guys, I got a problem here that seems really weird (not able to find anything online about such a thing)
I got something really strange here...
I am trying to compensate my HW insert delay using this trick for long... It works, but only for one session at a time!
I mean, that perfectly does the job, but if I close PT and open it again, the delay changed (the reality does not correspond anymore to the previous delay I set)!
I tried either with the insert delay like you in the I/O, or directly on the manual delay comp per track...
It works, until I close the session and open it again! (as well as changing the buffer size and going back at the previous value)
Let say I find 8 samples, I compensate for that value (HW delay tab or per track compensation), it is now perfectly aligned so I can work...
Then I close and re-open PT (or change the buffer size then set again to the previous buffer (2048 to 1024, then back to 2048 again so nothing should have changed))
Result, the previous delay compensation is still here, but not sufficient anymore... so I reset the delay to 0, measure it again, this time I can find 21 samples or any random numbers between 6 and 30 !
But something is even more bizarre, sometimes (apparently depending on certain buffer size), the audio going through the HW insert is in advance compared to my reference! (like if PT compensates to much, even if I do not tell him to do so (all delay comp at 0))
My measuring process is basic:
Click track OUT=>BUS 1 + BUS 2
Audio ref track IN=>BUS 1
Aux with HW insert IN=>BUS 2 OUT=>BUS 3
Audio track HW IN=>BUS 3
The HW consists only in a patchbay with a patch cable (so a real unit is removed from the equation, straight from DAC to ADC)
Imac (powerfull enough)
Interface ORION 32HD (USB mode not HD as I do not own PT HD yet...)
PT 12.7 and now 2008.3 (same issue)
If anyone has a lead, please help me before I loose all my hair :)))
Thanks!
Greg
MixbusTV
Yep it is very specific apparently
I don’t mind not to change my buffer size, but restarting PT :)
I finally found that many people have issues with the ORION 32HD, even in HDX mode they still have a delay to manually set.
I’ll check with another interface (or another DAW) to see where the random delay is coming from
Setting manually the compensation is not a problem, as long as it is good once and for all…
Was wondering if I should jump to PTHD, but seeing all these guys continuing to struggle, for the moment I kept my money… in fact not, I just bought a 1978 and a 1973 last week because of you ahah :)))
Continue to take pleasure and share it man! Big thanks!
Perfectly and simply explained. Thanks!
Thanks for laying this out. I don't have any outboard gear, but it's good to know how to deal with, nonetheless.
Thanks David - very helpful info - easy to follow - worked perfectly! Greatly appreciated!
this was great! Well explained. I'll be using this going forward.
Thank you so much for this technique! Also I guess audio interface buffer size will also impact the compensation value as it changes the roundtrip latency amount?
Thanks dude! Nice concise and articulate video.
Hi Dave,
I have in mind an alternative solution and I wanted to know your opinion:
let's start from the fact that the phase problems derive from the hybrid use of
plugins and external hardware, but hardware doesn't add latency. So, if every track (even those that do not pass
through external hardware, therefore not processed) came out and re-entered
from the daw via insert, it would be like having all the tracks processed
externally, then aligned! In my opinion, there would be only two small
downsides: 1- all playback would be delayed by X milliseconds, equal to the ad/da
roundtrip, but it's not a big deal while mixing. 2- even unprocessed tracks
would have 2 more stages of ad/da conversion, but with good converters it's
not a problem. what do you think about it?
Hi great Dave! Thanx for your reply, but i think i didn't explain well my thought... my english is not good and i apologize for that. i try again. Never mind the plugins, let's do it simple and let's assume we have just 2 tracks: one itb (we call it "untreated") and one routed to external hw (we call it "treated"). The treated one will come back to daw with some delay due to ad/da roundtrip. So my idea is: what if i route externally the untreated too (in a different in/out than the treated)? the roundtrip should add the same delay as the treated track... and therefore all 2 tracks should come back to daw at the same time. Adding plugins to this concept should not change the substance, because tracks start the ad/da roundtrip after the pdc compensation.
Awesome clarification! thank you!!
🤣I've been buying alot of outboard gears off my friends for this specific reason
Very nice!!! I share this one. Very helpful to everybody.
hey thanks so much for this video. my hardware returns seem to be 14 samples (.317ms) AHEAD and PT doesn't allow for negative (really positive) latency (really ahead...ency). any idea how to compensate for this in the DAW?
How did this get fixed I'm dying inside I cant figure this out !!!
You’re a great teacher! Thank you.
Summing Mixer is good to avoid this. Nice Video.
Thanks for this, got it working as an insert! Is it possible to figure out how to line it up with a processed audio track? So say instead of a real time insert you could the drum compressed track.
Has anyone tried this with a M-Audio 2626? This calculation does something but it's still way off.
David I get this weird “early delay” like the opposite of a delay when delay compensation is turned on in protools. It prints to the left, have you heard or seen this challenge?? I’m using dangerous converters and my interface is Apollo x6
Yes I have, make sure you're measuring every SR and load the right compensation based on the project
Thank you David for another excellent video detailing your set up! Your channel has been incredibly useful to me as I am making the jump into hybrid mixing and outboard hardware. One question I have for you: when using an outboard FX processor returning a 100% wet signal (in my case a Lexicon PCM70 verb and a PCM42 delay), do you set up the FX unit as a hardware insert on an Aux channel in Pro Tools so you can use the hardware insert delay compensation, or do you just send out to it and return and not worry about the latency since verb and delay can usually be a little “looser” and you are returning a 100% effected signal? I know some people will print the effected signal with a 2 pop and bump it manually (seems like not the best workflow). Thank you for your insight!
My issue is that signal from physical I/O comes before the signal from the PT's bus. Looks like buffer size influences buses but not outputs. How do i solve it?
I'm not sure what are you referring to. You have a hardware latency to calculate and input in the I/O hardware insert tab, and that's it. Everything else will be handled by ADC
ty
Can this be done in ableton live
Hi David. The audio being recorded back from my HW insert seems to be coming back earlier that the direct signal, which makes no sense to me. I have the HW compensation set to 0 currently. What am I doing wrong? Please help
You probably have zero monitoring enabled
THANK YOU!!!!
In the Pro Tools Playback engine settings do you need to check the checkbox "Ignore Errors During Playback/Record" in order to make it work?
No
@@mixbustv Thanks. In my case, if I don't enable it, the sound on audio track with h/w insert would come earlier (in time) compared to DAW tracks.
Great job! Thanx.
Thanks for the great Video.
what about 2 hardware inserts? when I activate 2 Hardware Insert. I get this error: Unable to compensate for this Track ??
Of course you do, because you're doing 2 roundtrips, not only you double the latency but you also do 4 conversions, (DA-AD, DA-AD) which is not how you're suppose to use 2 units on one track. You either have a patchbay or a Flock for that
@@mixbustv Thank you so much for the reply. I have the SSL fusion and Manley numu Mastering Limiter also Lynx Converter. In this case, the best way is to send the signal from the converter to SSL fusion as insert mode and after that send it from the SSL to Manley and finally send a Processed signal to Convertor. right? Now I print the processed signal from SSL to protools after that send it to Manley and print it again. 4-times Conversion ;(
Thanks a lot, for some reason Im getting lot more delay, so I can't compensate it good, there are another way?
awesome video, very good explanation
To clarify, I shouldn't need to do this if I'm running Native?
Yes
Muito top meu querido meu parabéns
the latency also changes with the buffer size, doesn't it?
Do I have to dealy compensate my monitor outputs as well??? I have delay compensated all of my hardware inserts. 1and2 are my outputs to my proacs. Do these need to be delay compensated as well? I am running 8 channels of burl mothership converters via sound grid studio.
hello. excellent tuto! just wondering... did you disengage compensation delay?
Good morning, I'm having trouble getting signal out while printing with hardware. I'm using a manley core with a distressor to a Apollo twin. I can hear the changes when I twist the knob but when is time to print the waves don't change. What am I doing wrong? I'm using pro tools as well.
Impossible to say without more information and knowing how you're patched. Twin has only two channels and you're talking about printing, I'm not sure if you mean recording or printing pre-existing tracks you have in the daw but with that interface you would have to do a physical connection between line outs and ins and that's very messy
@@mixbustv yes I'm trying to mix a track that's already been recorded. I routed. Apollo out, Manly in, Manley out, distressor in, distressor out, Apollo In. Idont know if I'm doing it correctly or I have to use 2 separate inputs on the Apollo for both hardwares as well as 2 different inserts instead of using just one
Pro Tools require to use the same In and Out when using hardware inserts, you have to set your hardware inserts in the tab, then connect accordingly. You can book a private session for this
How much is for the private session?
Great video. How did you know it was 82 samples? I have to nudge my audio 3 times to line up (nudge is set to 1 sample). Thanks!
Thanks!
I was confused because you nudge it 7 or 8 times and then say 82 samples.
great vid! Hey David have you ever ran into this issue: when putting outboard gear as an insert the level returning from your gear is about 6 to 8db lower than your unprocessed signal? even if the gear your using is in bypass? this is probably something unique to my setup but just wondering if it's something you've seen?
I know this is old post, However Im running my 1176 through my Symphony mkII When i record my two tracks I don't see or here any delay, Does anyone know if apogee Symphony have 0 latency. Note I'm not running HD or avid, Only pro tools 11 through my symphony thunderbolt.
I have the MKI and definitely had latency. I corrected it using the method in this video and I'm parallel processing my drums with my Shadow Hills Dual Vandergraph right now and it sounds amazing! I guess the MKII handles latency better!
thank you very much!
Mine is samples ahead I've tried everything !!!!! Super frustrating
which interface are you using?
thank you
Great VID THANK U SO MUCH
Hey David, thanks for posting this. This may be a silly question but how do I even find the samples to plug into the equation to calculate the milliseconds of delay comp? Are you literally zooming in all the way and counting each nudge all the way until it is approximately lined up with the original and determining that as your "samples off" that way? Thanks! This has been bugging me for a long time.
No, I think I mentioned either in this or another video on it. You set your grid in samples first and then you simply select the discrepancy space and it displays the number in the transport
Superinfo 👍. Thank you.
Cool video but in my case I don’t see any latency, or maybe I doing something wrong? Or PT 12 already fix this? I’m confuse now.
@@mixbustv hey David yes I using outboard gear I did step by step and everything is fine. thanks for the reply.
Just to double check, this will need to change if the H/W buffer size is changed right? Does the latency figure stay the same if your using a hardware compressor on an insert or say a hardware spring? Thanks
great video very precise and informative .. for digital when you say add it to the figure. does that mean do the test you showed in video then add that defined latency from the manual to the figure?
thanks
Hi David, I'm having a strange issue with Protools 2020.12 - the track recorded with the hardware insert gets printed slightly ahead of the DAW track. I don't understand how this can be... I can't put any negative delay compensation amount to correct that either. Ever seen that before?
No you can't, do you have latency compensation on and/or direct monitoring?
@@mixbustv Thanks for replying. I do have delay compensation on, otherwise my track fall out of sync (I have both VST instruments and audio files in my project). Does it need to be removed?
Outboard PHASE problem ... ?!!
Actually i have some problem with my DAW ( pro tools ) i connected my ( klark teknik compressor ) outboard input and output lines ... But when i put insert in any track i always hear PHASE sound ... In consideration that i make buffer size ( 64 ) and delay compensation ( none ) ... I also tried to change numbers in my H/W insert delay but it's the same problem ... But when i make any audio track output to ( my compressor output line ) in the DAW the phase is gone .. Soo i need help please what i should to do if any one know ?!! Thankx ...
+MixbusTV it's still ... I hear delay ..
I've tried to do this, but I still have a very noticeable echo/delay on my track when I put a hardware insert onto it. Any idea on how I can fix this? Thank you so much!
MixbusTV I actually have it figured out! My Focusrite mix control was monitoring the unprocessed signal, whereas Pro Tools was playing the signal with delay compensation on, and that caused me to hear the signal twice at different times.
Hi , i have protools HD with 192i/o box, if i want to send a signal to a 1176 , i need to do that?
MixbusTV ok , if i send a track to the 1176 and print de return ? , that way i will have a image of the 2 signals isnt it?
Ok, so mine is the opposite!! My inserts with the outboard gear come in 8 samples ahead of the original audio not delayed. So at 44100 sample rate I am ahead by 0.18 milliseconds. How can I delay the track instead? It's very strange.
I'm using an apollo 8 set to PT mode so technically it should be calculating this and it might be overdoing it by 0.18 ms. Any advice?
Same for me ! Have you found a solutions ?
@@anthonyharand9881 Make sure when you record the track used to find latency, your HW insert i/o is set to 0 to start! I just ran into the same thing bc I had the io settings for 44.1 still there, and trying to find the delay for 48k inaccurate.
@@anthonyharand9881 did u ? i'm a head @ 48 how do i delay it
Same problem here, have you found a solution??
@@alexandrepiccina I never found a solution. I just nudged it back 8 samples every time. Very strange. I am now using a Lynx Hilo and it is on the dot with pro tools. No nudging necessary.
why is it that the direct drums you printed is later than the one going through API2500 and not the other way around? isn't the HW insert delay making the direct tracks compensate for ADDA ronud trips, so delaying them even more?
tubedudes I was wondering this too.
The direct isn't delayed...looks like the tracks were not in that particular order. The hardware insert was delayed, not the direct audio. Your observation is correct. But that's actually not even relevant. You're calculating the difference between the two...it doesn't matter what order they're in. If you hear comb filtering or obvious delay, you need to compensate for it.
Thanks! My question is this: I don't have physical hardware inserts set up in PT11. Reason being, I don't want them always wired in as certain inputs into my AD/DA for mixing because I use them in tracking too on all kind of different things. So the way i patch in hardware into a mix is by doing it as if it were a plugin by hovering over i/o on the insert drop down of a track and just selecting what input and output I decide to route my hardware to for that given instrument track. So if I try and do a hardware in parallel, I get phaseyness too even though I have delay compensation turned on. I just always figured pro tools was improperly calculating the latency from the ad/da trip. So can I set up a hardware insert and only patch it in when i want to use it for that? Or will the inputs on my converter get confused when i am tracking and have outboard mic pres going into the same inputs my hardware insert normally occupies?
Wow thanks for the awesomely detailed reply! You're the best. My issue is though, I track bands as well. So would I need to erase those delay times every time I go to record something?
Wow, thats great! Had no idea so always shied away from it. I guess I got confused when you said "I don't track so I do it this way", because by the looks of it, I'll be doing the exact same thing as you! Cheers!
FYI, Pro Tools provides up to (I think...I'd have to reference the user guide again) about 16,000 samples of internal delay compensation. If it is a PT|HD system it automatically makes up for the roundtrip during recording and playback. All versions of PT use this to compensate for latency caused by *PLUGINS*. You have to manually adjust for latency once your session runs out of allowable delay compensation cache, which is where this technique would come into play.
Digital outboard gear has it's own latency (it does A/D & D/A conversion by itself to process the audio fed into it, but analog gear does NOT. So there's no latency with that. But you CAN get latency if you use long cable. The longer distance you send signal out means it has to come back the same distance (or more if you patch more effects in and keep it out of the digital domain longer). This physical travel time, can cause severe latency sometimes also...which is why you'd also have to do this.
As he pointed out, latency is dependent upon sample rate also. So when you use a lot of cable, and high sample rates, you can get considerable latency that can be a real mess. It's best to keep cable short when using outboard gear, and use the 96k for recording/mixing across the board. It's better fidelity than 44.1/48k and standardizing this means you can set your delay compensation and forget it, basically. It is generally accepted practice to record, mix, and master at the highest sample rate possible to minimize high frequency artifacts above 17kHz anyway. Don't get in the habit of up and down sampling stuff. You're just adding digital artifacts by doing that. You don't need to be recording music at anything above 96kHz unless you're doing video work really.
Bro my ad trip is earlier than the original audio what's causing that ?
seems like a
bug it's registering after now
ok everything is working now lol
Has AVID ever made an easier go around with this? Logic does this thing called PING where you hit a button and it sends a signal through your HW and back into the computer while automatically calculating the offset and adjusting it for you. So Stupid you have to waste all of this time in PT with things like this
82 samples?
where on the screen you can see that 82 samples appear when you move the wave to the left? Thank you.