The amount of baseline concentration you need was a huge factor in me thinking that the majority of players will be better off just running concentration alt armies.
Agreed. If in a few months I can have 10 alchemists with a full tree of KPs, i will in essence have 10k concentration to play with while others only have 1k. BUT..... players complained about the kp grind on a single toon. Good lord the tears when they find out players have done it 50x !!
The problem is this mentality is from the prepatch. Even with maxed trees and Q3 mats, you cannot guarantee the best on Dragonflight crafted items/gear and have to spend Concentration. It’s definitely gonna be a drastic change of pace, but a change of habit from bad to good is appreciated knowing the beta.
@@taraxist But then you run out of Mettle. Thus, Concentration build is necessary during Dragonflight crafting. Not so much in TWW as better quality materials mean better quality products to a higher degree in Khaz Algar.
@@starrytoonballoon I'm not complaining or speaking against the concentration, just I haven't run out of mettle, have a lot still and was worried that I might, but I have had no issues with crafting orders and making the best without relying on inspiration. I've made millions crafting this expansion but I definitely am not a top gold maker in comparison to so many others.
From other channels, it sounds like many core ingredients like ore, herbs, etc will not drop at rank 3 in near the quantity as they used too. A good percentage of every collection will be rank 1/2. If true, that means rank three ingredients for recipes may be much more expensive, and hence concentration may be desirable to some extent.
It's not a trap. Ingenuity will allow you to use rank 2 mats to produce rank 3 items. With skill alone you will have to use rank 3 mats, and sell at loss. It decreases price of the item due to reduced cost. You will sell at loss without it.
The only way crafting speed would be an attractive stat would be if they made baseline crafting take literally minutes for gear, or 30 seconds per craft for materials. The problem with that is that crafting would f*cking suck major balls out of the gate. Why even have that stat since it doesn't do much of anything? If it does, then I sure as hell didn't notice it.
This video is a trap.... that might be true for 305 skill recipe like in your video but high end crafts require 480 skill for enchanting and its unreachable and it will require concentration even if you are maxed out
Yes. Instead of the hard “don’t ever invest in ingenuity” he’s pushing, I would argue that every crafter should consider how much they value spending early on ingenuity knowing they’ll be replacing it later. Kind of how a raider that gets a BoP drop have to consider if the temporary upgrade is worth it or if they’re better off selling it in the AH for gold.
I'm glad my initial response to it wasn't off base. From the get-go, I thought the stat should instead reduce the amount of concentration used as a flat percent or amount, or perhaps increase the rate at which concentration charges - basically, work literally any other way that isn't how it's currently implemented. I get that doesn't change its appeal in late game crafting, but it would go a long way to improving it as an early stat to have.
The point of it concentration is to allow people to make crafts at a lower material cost. So you can craft your own gear at the cost of concentration instead of KP or insights (etc.), but then when selling the balance becomes "Is my concentration worth the same amount as the materials?" I would reckon that the main use of concentration will be to make rank 3 materials, and for alt armies to make high end enchants or other crafts at the cost of their cooldown over the materials.
Also, for those of you who missed it, people like to talk about all the gold that they made crafting potions etc. But the real money was in creating the high level reagents. You often ended up in a situation where your profit margins were heavily based on the value you could get the sources for, Creating resources instead of finished goods is also better because you gain access to 2 markets and you get to be the primary market.
This "everything guaranteed" once maxed is very dumb.. oversaturated market after like 5 months if not earlier with minimal profit margins... Cant wait
Interesting, the more linear form of concentration is how it is now in prepatch: it costs me about 12 concentration to craft max reagents. The ideal situation for me would be that at all max reagents you can guarantee it, but if you drop down one of them to rank 2 it should cost 10-15 concentration. That would make it much more interesting to figure out which reagents on which crafts should be dropped down, etc. 140 minimum concentration cost is just insane and, I agree, makes the whole thing quite pointless for reagent/consumable crafters.
Reagent crafters will see profit when main crafters run out of concentration but want to make more money. But this certainly incentivizes crafting items wholly. I think it's good that max crafts won't be locked behind 3-10 million gold of investment/powerleveling/recipes/tools.
My understanding was that there would still be some items, like crafted gear, where ingenuity might continue to have some value. Those items don't benefit from multicraft, and are also not guaranteed to craft at max rank, no matter how much work you put into your profession. In those cases, concentration will continue to have value, and thus so will ingenuity. Perhaps the materials will be expensive enough to make resourcefulness still better than ingenuity, but I think that remains to be seen.
@@Manthieus Possible but with how many kps spend in the trees? If you have to spend few months maybe a whole patch to unlock everything you need to guarantee all r5 of the crafted gear surely concentration will be valuable for that? But then again i would assume to just buff it with tools and idk consumes if they exist but not investing kps in it
I think it could be decent for the casuals base.. those that want to craft a piece every day or 2, they will be able to use concertation to get the max level item without having study to know where to get ever single skill/KP... eventually they wont need it but that is a long way away, especially if they are not on top of there KP, so ingenuity will be good for them if that's the case
I agree to your point about concentration being useful if you are only occationally crafting for yourself, but casuals should care about ingenuity even less, because as they are unlikly to run out of concentration anyway, so whats the point it in being refunded. Multicraft/resourcefulness are still, even for casuals, far better stats to have.
@@Manthieus I see your point, it could still be decent for those are crafting at a level where the need than concertation bump every now and then... but why even risk it when resourcefulness is just guaranteed to always be useful... it is so bait though especially in the beg of an expansion where being able to get that extra chance to craft could result in another big order/sale lol
As was said by other comments, you will still need ingenuity. Not all crafting recipes will be auto max ranked as they were in DF. Those best recipes for the highest ilvl items will need concentration. Which means you can only craft a few before you run out of concentration and thus capping the amount of profit you can make. Ingenuity makes this ceiling go up!
the only way ingenuity becomes a valuable skill is in cases like recrafting certain DF proff tools where they could not guarantee max rank even with all the mats at max rank. and iirc that was the kind of thing they wanted to prevent in TWW. Maybe they will make the max ilvl crafted gear need concentration, or maybe mat quality can be min-maxed with it, but i doubt the first and there will be addons for the second.
Thanks for the warning and heads up! As someone who was heavily using professions I can see how this will create bottle necks in your profit margins. This makes inspiration look good :/ I dont personally like this because you’re so limited by how much high quality you can produce
We’ll still need to be spending concentration, just shouldn’t try to get it refunded, I guess. I’m still not sure when I should do it, though, maybe you have a video on that.
The problem with ingenuity as a stat is that it doesn't increase the profitability of a given craft at all, it just allows you to get more of such crafts in before running out of concentration. So even in the case where you cannot craft max quality stuff without concentration, you are gaining basically nothing. I don't like this "you will be able to craft everything at max rank without concentration eventually". It makes people's alt armies become fully redundant by then.
But *when* can you guarantee R5 equipment without Concentration? The first few weeks of an expansion people will be wanting R5 profession tools ASAP, and when the season starts people will want R5 BIS gear. These windows of profit will not be there in later weeks; can you guarantee R5 WITHOUT concentration for these windows? That being said, Ingenuity does seem like crap, because if you have 50% ingenuity it basically means you have 1250 concentration instead of 1000, doesn't seem that impactful
What about this scenario: at some point, either release or a later patch, there is a recipe then even using the best materials you can still only hit rank 4/5 unless you burn concentration?
Hmm I wonder what would be the clean design here for Blizzard. On the one hand, they could make concentration be required for endgame crafts even if you are maxed out. But that would also leave a bit of a sour aftertaste cause it feels pretty nice to know "I'm now able to do this just by default without concentration". Not sure what the solution here is that makes everyone happy but also doesn't further incentivise alt armies (although I guess that ship has sailed with professions in general).
They kinda shit the bed with ingenuity. It should, if anything, increase conc regen and reduce conc costs by a *very* small amount. Small enough that people still go for multi and resourcefulness etc
This video is wrong, nerubian endgame crafts require concentration. Im pretty sure the actual recipe difficulty for optional reagents aren't properly done (they show up as +25 difficulty on the crafting order ui but only add +5).
If ingenuity is sort of out, 2 stats would you recommend stacking for crafts that cannot take advantage of multi craft? (For example, high end weapons or enchants). Can you get profession equipment with only a large amount of resourcefulness on it?
I realize this likely isnt the right video, but do gatherers have any use for Concentration? Does it make a case for not having a double gatherer to avoid "wasting" the concentration?
Gatherers dont have concentration. Plus they have their own secondary stats. Also Concentration is profession specific, so a double crafter will have 2 separate bars of 1k each.
I guess it just seems like maybe youre ignoring this possibility that theres another elemental lariat, and every order youre able to complete is $$$ more than anything else you could get back from the other stats. Not a one size fits all here
From a Wowhead post: "Recharge time for 1 seems to be between 5-6 minutes so it's gonna take 41-49 hours to recharge 500 concentration atm and it doesn't look like there's any skill points to increase it either." - Zanzarful (@Zanzarful) April 26, 2024
The amount of baseline concentration you need was a huge factor in me thinking that the majority of players will be better off just running concentration alt armies.
Agreed. If in a few months I can have 10 alchemists with a full tree of KPs, i will in essence have 10k concentration to play with while others only have 1k.
BUT..... players complained about the kp grind on a single toon. Good lord the tears when they find out players have done it 50x !!
The problem is this mentality is from the prepatch. Even with maxed trees and Q3 mats, you cannot guarantee the best on Dragonflight crafted items/gear and have to spend Concentration.
It’s definitely gonna be a drastic change of pace, but a change of habit from bad to good is appreciated knowing the beta.
I could almost always guarantee the best. Using illustrious insight.
@@taraxist But then you run out of Mettle. Thus, Concentration build is necessary during Dragonflight crafting.
Not so much in TWW as better quality materials mean better quality products to a higher degree in Khaz Algar.
@@starrytoonballoon I'm not complaining or speaking against the concentration, just I haven't run out of mettle, have a lot still and was worried that I might, but I have had no issues with crafting orders and making the best without relying on inspiration. I've made millions crafting this expansion but I definitely am not a top gold maker in comparison to so many others.
From other channels, it sounds like many core ingredients like ore, herbs, etc will not drop at rank 3 in near the quantity as they used too. A good percentage of every collection will be rank 1/2. If true, that means rank three ingredients for recipes may be much more expensive, and hence concentration may be desirable to some extent.
It's not a trap. Ingenuity will allow you to use rank 2 mats to produce rank 3 items. With skill alone you will have to use rank 3 mats, and sell at loss. It decreases price of the item due to reduced cost. You will sell at loss without it.
The only way crafting speed would be an attractive stat would be if they made baseline crafting take literally minutes for gear, or 30 seconds per craft for materials. The problem with that is that crafting would f*cking suck major balls out of the gate. Why even have that stat since it doesn't do much of anything? If it does, then I sure as hell didn't notice it.
This video is a trap.... that might be true for 305 skill recipe like in your video but high end crafts require 480 skill for enchanting and its unreachable and it will require concentration even if you are maxed out
Yes. Instead of the hard “don’t ever invest in ingenuity” he’s pushing, I would argue that every crafter should consider how much they value spending early on ingenuity knowing they’ll be replacing it later. Kind of how a raider that gets a BoP drop have to consider if the temporary upgrade is worth it or if they’re better off selling it in the AH for gold.
I'm glad my initial response to it wasn't off base. From the get-go, I thought the stat should instead reduce the amount of concentration used as a flat percent or amount, or perhaps increase the rate at which concentration charges - basically, work literally any other way that isn't how it's currently implemented. I get that doesn't change its appeal in late game crafting, but it would go a long way to improving it as an early stat to have.
The point of it concentration is to allow people to make crafts at a lower material cost. So you can craft your own gear at the cost of concentration instead of KP or insights (etc.), but then when selling the balance becomes "Is my concentration worth the same amount as the materials?"
I would reckon that the main use of concentration will be to make rank 3 materials, and for alt armies to make high end enchants or other crafts at the cost of their cooldown over the materials.
Also, for those of you who missed it, people like to talk about all the gold that they made crafting potions etc. But the real money was in creating the high level reagents. You often ended up in a situation where your profit margins were heavily based on the value you could get the sources for, Creating resources instead of finished goods is also better because you gain access to 2 markets and you get to be the primary market.
This "everything guaranteed" once maxed is very dumb.. oversaturated market after like 5 months if not earlier with minimal profit margins... Cant wait
It's funny how they tried to make crafting more relevant and interesting, but in the process, they ended up making it a pain in the ass
Interesting, the more linear form of concentration is how it is now in prepatch: it costs me about 12 concentration to craft max reagents. The ideal situation for me would be that at all max reagents you can guarantee it, but if you drop down one of them to rank 2 it should cost 10-15 concentration. That would make it much more interesting to figure out which reagents on which crafts should be dropped down, etc. 140 minimum concentration cost is just insane and, I agree, makes the whole thing quite pointless for reagent/consumable crafters.
Reagent crafters will see profit when main crafters run out of concentration but want to make more money. But this certainly incentivizes crafting items wholly. I think it's good that max crafts won't be locked behind 3-10 million gold of investment/powerleveling/recipes/tools.
My understanding was that there would still be some items, like crafted gear, where ingenuity might continue to have some value. Those items don't benefit from multicraft, and are also not guaranteed to craft at max rank, no matter how much work you put into your profession. In those cases, concentration will continue to have value, and thus so will ingenuity. Perhaps the materials will be expensive enough to make resourcefulness still better than ingenuity, but I think that remains to be seen.
Unless it is a very recent change, every peice of crafted gear it possible to guarantee it at rank 5. Even fully loaded (missive crest & embelishment)
@@Manthieus Possible but with how many kps spend in the trees? If you have to spend few months maybe a whole patch to unlock everything you need to guarantee all r5 of the crafted gear surely concentration will be valuable for that? But then again i would assume to just buff it with tools and idk consumes if they exist but not investing kps in it
I think it could be decent for the casuals base.. those that want to craft a piece every day or 2, they will be able to use concertation to get the max level item without having study to know where to get ever single skill/KP... eventually they wont need it but that is a long way away, especially if they are not on top of there KP, so ingenuity will be good for them if that's the case
I agree to your point about concentration being useful if you are only occationally crafting for yourself, but casuals should care about ingenuity even less, because as they are unlikly to run out of concentration anyway, so whats the point it in being refunded.
Multicraft/resourcefulness are still, even for casuals, far better stats to have.
@@Manthieus I see your point, it could still be decent for those are crafting at a level where the need than concertation bump every now and then... but why even risk it when resourcefulness is just guaranteed to always be useful... it is so bait though especially in the beg of an expansion where being able to get that extra chance to craft could result in another big order/sale lol
As was said by other comments, you will still need ingenuity. Not all crafting recipes will be auto max ranked as they were in DF. Those best recipes for the highest ilvl items will need concentration. Which means you can only craft a few before you run out of concentration and thus capping the amount of profit you can make. Ingenuity makes this ceiling go up!
the only way ingenuity becomes a valuable skill is in cases like recrafting certain DF proff tools where they could not guarantee max rank even with all the mats at max rank. and iirc that was the kind of thing they wanted to prevent in TWW.
Maybe they will make the max ilvl crafted gear need concentration, or maybe mat quality can be min-maxed with it, but i doubt the first and there will be addons for the second.
Thanks for the warning and heads up! As someone who was heavily using professions I can see how this will create bottle necks in your profit margins. This makes inspiration look good :/
I dont personally like this because you’re so limited by how much high quality you can produce
We’ll still need to be spending concentration, just shouldn’t try to get it refunded, I guess. I’m still not sure when I should do it, though, maybe you have a video on that.
I can relate to the thumb, a moron gatherer earning crumbs
The problem with ingenuity as a stat is that it doesn't increase the profitability of a given craft at all, it just allows you to get more of such crafts in before running out of concentration. So even in the case where you cannot craft max quality stuff without concentration, you are gaining basically nothing.
I don't like this "you will be able to craft everything at max rank without concentration eventually". It makes people's alt armies become fully redundant by then.
But *when* can you guarantee R5 equipment without Concentration?
The first few weeks of an expansion people will be wanting R5 profession tools ASAP, and when the season starts people will want R5 BIS gear. These windows of profit will not be there in later weeks; can you guarantee R5 WITHOUT concentration for these windows?
That being said, Ingenuity does seem like crap, because if you have 50% ingenuity it basically means you have 1250 concentration instead of 1000, doesn't seem that impactful
What about this scenario: at some point, either release or a later patch, there is a recipe then even using the best materials you can still only hit rank 4/5 unless you burn concentration?
This will affect alt armies a lot
Hmm I wonder what would be the clean design here for Blizzard. On the one hand, they could make concentration be required for endgame crafts even if you are maxed out. But that would also leave a bit of a sour aftertaste cause it feels pretty nice to know "I'm now able to do this just by default without concentration". Not sure what the solution here is that makes everyone happy but also doesn't further incentivise alt armies (although I guess that ship has sailed with professions in general).
To be truthful i am a little confused to why concentration was adjusted to be this way, the more linear solution felt better in the first place.
I miss TB, RIP champ🙏
They kinda shit the bed with ingenuity. It should, if anything, increase conc regen and reduce conc costs by a *very* small amount. Small enough that people still go for multi and resourcefulness etc
This video is wrong, nerubian endgame crafts require concentration. Im pretty sure the actual recipe difficulty for optional reagents aren't properly done (they show up as +25 difficulty on the crafting order ui but only add +5).
damn, rip my home made calculator from season 1
I've actually got an inspiration tool left somehow. Shame it was on the profession it was as I could have made a lot if it had been on jewelcrafting.
Is there any argument for a Ingenuity leveling set that gets replaced when you get access to the best gear?
question for thoughts. Levelling my main who will be alch./engi. do i then choose bs/jc or scribe/alch for the next toon
If ingenuity is sort of out, 2 stats would you recommend stacking for crafts that cannot take advantage of multi craft? (For example, high end weapons or enchants). Can you get profession equipment with only a large amount of resourcefulness on it?
Create the Tool with a resourcefullness Missive, and enchant it with bonus res :)
Should I level my alts professions now or just wait for war within because it starts from zero again?
They start from zero again.
great video, thank you!
I realize this likely isnt the right video, but do gatherers have any use for Concentration? Does it make a case for not having a double gatherer to avoid "wasting" the concentration?
Gatherers dont have concentration. Plus they have their own secondary stats.
Also Concentration is profession specific, so a double crafter will have 2 separate bars of 1k each.
1) It's profession-specific, you have separate pools for each crafting profession.
2) Gatherers don't have it
Im still waiting for proper concentration differences within various skill gaps. 267/305 and it requires 146 concentrations feels broken
These were updated a build or 2 ago, I am somewhat worried that these are the final ones. Feedback has been given :)
so um... enchants can't multicraft, can they? I'd consider this a even more dead branch then if you plan only selling enchants?
also true.
Do you think illusions or main stat weapon enchant will be more profitable at the start?
illusions are meme things, not many people care and everyone needs weapon enchants.
@Manthieus The undocumented changes to professions that happened todayish, will those be updated in your written guide?
To the best of my ability. Updates are happening frequently, as things are found.
@@Manthieus For sure, less concerned about the timing, just making sure the guide is scheduled for updates.
why not just recraft your tools when you can guarantee a craft?
I guess it just seems like maybe youre ignoring this possibility that theres another elemental lariat, and every order youre able to complete is $$$ more than anything else you could get back from the other stats. Not a one size fits all here
So what would be the best stat for gear for blacksmithing weapons?
Since you will be filling work orders, Resourcefulness.
you can level professions during early access correct?
We don't know for sure but the assumption is that we will be able to.
On the beta can you get epic enchanting mats from DEing blues like you could in DF?
I have not done much DEing recently, but as of a few builds back, green=dust, blue=shard, epic=crystal. no crossover.
no all the mats are specifically disenchanted from green blue and epic gear, no crossovers and the whole spec is focused on these 3 branches
i see i see 😏
Does anyone know concentration math by any chance?
From a Wowhead post:
"Recharge time for 1 seems to be between 5-6 minutes so it's gonna take 41-49 hours to recharge 500 concentration atm and it doesn't look like there's any skill points to increase it either."
- Zanzarful (@Zanzarful) April 26, 2024
Like EZ