Given that 90% of the internet is team black, this channel is really a much needed and refreshing contribution to balance things out. You bring up a lot of good points and perspectives that are completely drowned out by the Daemyra hivemind even though you back them up with plenty of evidence in both book and show. Some people really think Daemon is some kind of feminist ally and model husband and stepdaddy. Best example was how many people were seriously shocked that Daemon would choke Rhaenyra due to her hesitation to go to war, even though it is 100% in character for him to do so given his pride, ambition, contempt for weakness and inclination to violence to solve his problems.
I mean, Aegon is also right in the sense that as long as he did not peruse the throne he was no threat to Rhaenyra. Rhaneyra has five sons and as such his claim to the throne has now shifted to 7th in line, and if Jace has a son, then he shifts even further down the totem poll. That and Aegon also recognized he'd make a bad king (which for the short time he was... he was correct). He was pushed into something he never wanted by his Grandfather, Mother and Aemond. His own father Viserys also seemed to recognize this as despite being his true born son he never named him heir and never taught him how to rule (and considering how dangerous pregnancies are in Westeros there was no guarantee Rhaenyra was going to survive her six pregnancies). It is clear based on how Jacaerys trains in martial combat, histories and politics that he was who Viserys envisioned to inherit the throne if Rhaenyra died. And based on the alliances Jacearys negotiated and how he earned Cregan Stark's respect and brotherhood he was the key reason Rhaenyra even won the war. The Dance was equally the fault of Viserys, Daemon, Rhaenyra, Otto and Alicent. I will exclude Aemond from as much fault as while he was responsible for Luc's death it was clear the entire situation would had been avoided if those five had sorted out their shit beforehand.
@@thalmoragent9344 Or if Viserys took a moment and changed to the laws proper then it would had not been a problem. I mean I don't think Viserys is stupid as despite Rhaenyra's follies, Aegon and Aemond are clearly poor choices for king. One is a serial rapist, supports underground child fighting and in general about as bad as Deamon. The other idolized Daemon and becomes a kinslayer (and if the rumors are to be believed an incautious adulterer with his sister Helaena and possibly the actual father of Aegon's kids). So, if Otto truly thought Daemon would be a bad king he certainly grandfathered two mini Daemons in waiting. For all respects the Strong bastards would had been good rulers. They were humble, worked hard and seemed to hold a sense of honor. It could be because they grew up as bastards and were looked down upon so they worked extra hard to earn their titles (they seem similar to Jon Snow in that respect). Or it could just be that Rhaenyra as a better mother than Alicent. It is really just hard to say.
@@Wexter0083 Yeah Aegon would definitely be a poor ruler, and at least he admitted that. Aemond's kinslaying in this case would've been accidental, although originally yeah he'd have been worse if it was book version. That said, had Aegon grown without his eye being taken as a kid then who knows, he may have been a good king. If what he says about studying philosophy and history, practicing with the sword is all true (and I don't think he was just bluffing) then he probably would've made a good king. The Strong kids may have been bood rulers, true. Better than Aegon and Aemond (in his current state), but nevertheless, as Vaemond Velaryon boldly said, not true inheritors of either Dynasty. They would have ruled Harrenhall and it's lands rather well though, as Lords of House Strong.
Rhaenyra lost the war when she married Daemon. Ironically, she did it thinking it would make her claim stronger, but that's what made her lose the war before it even started.
She was not going to want to marry Aegon even before he was married to their sister Heleana. She was both his older sister and she was his teenage mothers age in HotD. Aemond is Aegon's younger brother so marrying him wouldn't help (and might be even worse). in fire and blood she has another brother Daeron but he's younger then Aemond. Many of the avilible men around her would be either too old or too young and not dragon riders. At least she geniuenly wanted Daemon and Daemon did somewhat love her. As he does have a claim as does she and Laenor was depicted as useless to her. So faking his death and marrying Daemon would make sense to him.
She was going to have her throne stolen either way. Daemon may have been reckless and as the snake Otto said "without limit", he had many friends. He helped Corlys win the war in the Step Stones (by going in a suicide mission I know), and had more friends than enemies. He wasn't politically crippling Rhaenyra, that were just Otto's words, he was helping her actually. He tried at least.
@@anagirbau3301Everything is honestly Viserys’ fault. Period. Viserys should have pulled a Jahaerys and changed the rules of succession and then cited Targaryen exceptionalism so no one could challenge it. That, or take the issue to the great council. Either way, Viserys should have made some sort of political decision to shut the lords of the realm up and quell dissent and division within his family. Also he should have been more involved in Rhaenyras marriage. We see him spending most of his time eating or sitting in like a child while otto effectively rules for him. he could have spared some time to be the one touring with her and if anything Alicent could have come too to stop her yapping, and attempt some reconnection between the two on a months long journey. Then, no matter Viserys’ choice, he should have taught his heir to actually rule. Rhaenyra’s political incompetence is painful to watch at best. She calls on all of these lords like they are her banner men when in reality they do not know her, they do not like her, they do not want her. three main things you need to inspire someone into action for you. she should have spent the majority of her life making friends and alliances with strong houses.. at least a few. this way she wouldn’t be reaching her and finding it so difficult to forge alliances or even protect herself besides her dragons.. the only reason Aegons faction is so politically savvy is because they have Otto and what’s left of the council but Aegon was left to rot as far as being raised to rule as well. Even if he wasn’t being prepared to rule they ALL should have received formal political and tactical training as they are all princes and princesses and are ALL in line for the throne. Viserys also should have pushed for Targaryen strength; the most important thing is that our house remains strong, no matter who sits the throne, we are one house, we are one family, we are one power. outsiders hoping to rise in the ranks through treachery will be dealt with, those loyal to us will be rewarded. but we must neverrr turn on each other. if Margot’s rule taught us anything it should be that infighting is the only thing capable of destroying our house and Aegon Targaryen did not conquer westeros.. giving us the kingdoms we have now, to see his dynasty destroyed by its own imbecilic members.. so to me, no matter how you slice it, Viserys’ inaction as King caused the dance. He allowed outsiders to be wayy too close to the throne, and crows to come feast on his, and his houses bones.
@@anagirbau3301tldr: just like in real life everyyything is about appearances, politics, and the law. we say some words are rules we must al follow and it works for many psychological and social reasons but that was all Viserys needed to do here. Invoke his absolute power that he is greater than the Lords and if he tells the lords this is the new normal and puts it into law there’s nothing to be done. Except revolt, like the militant, if they do that it would have given him the excuse to use them as an example in a show of strength.. lots of XXL rice krispies.. and boom problem solved.
I have a feeling that the audience treats Daemon the same way as they treat Tywin Lannister. Both characters did horrible things all the time but the fanbase fall in love with them and see them as inspiring because of the charismatic actors who play them.
These characters also have that element of "strongman". The "tell it like it is" guys with straight forward (Tywin) or no (Daemon) politcs. Writing isn't perfect but it has shown how Daemon is more black than grey and yet, him choking Rhaeneyra wasn't as serious as Alicent going after her .
@@komal146 Yeah, and I find it very concerning about how many youtubers made video essays about how to be like Tywin (such as Charisma in Command) as if he is this inspirational hero even though in the universe, he is an equivalent of Hitler.
@@nont18411 lmao that guy's such a hack. Uses pseudo science to rope in insecure people with the promise of giving them power(you know instead of actually repairing self esteem). And Tywin or characters like him seem powerful and on the top of the world. They miss how short tempered, short sighted, emotional and illogical they can be and they all ignore the miserable parts of a character to sell the image.
I'll be honest and say I absolutely love Tywin Lannister as he is easily in my top five. I love him because I understand him. I can't look at Tywin through a modern lens. He's cruel, calculating and relentless towards any who opposes him and his house. Is he a good person? Of course not, but he owns it. I think Olenna said it best, she didn't like him but she respected him. Tywin would never be loved, nor did he care to be, but he demanded a modicum respect even at his cruelest.
Additional Point: 1. With Jaecerys and Baela's engagement, Daemon would be extremely motivated to make sure his daughter would become Queen. That would mean killing anyone who threatened Jace's succession. 2. Aegon and Aemond have proven themselves absolutely unable to keep their mouths shut about Jace's illegitimacy. 3. Daemon would already kill those two for a Klondike bar. Food for thought.
Yeah I would tend to mostly agree, but I'm quite suss that Daemon would have ever actually allowed his daughters to marry the Strong boys, he doesn't appear to have much personal attachment to them and I cannot fathom a world where he would let bastards inherit over his own trueborn sons.
@@HillsAliveYT Maybe Daemon doesn't care? He did tell Rhaenyra that she could do what she wanted even when she was married. And besides which, they are indisputably Rhae's kids. Daemon's grandkids would be mostly Valyrian either way, if not necessarily Velaryon. Talk about bad luck tho, eh? What are the odds Jace, Luke, and Joff all look like Harwin while Alicent's kids all look like Viserys?
@@alexanderdavis3755 I think that she was talking about the fact that the illegitimate boys would be ahead of his two sons, since he doesn't seem very atached to his daughters the fact that they would be consorts wouldn't motivate him at all, well it probably would if there wasn't the fact that his two sons would be the next in line if the strong boys died suddenly. It doesn't matter to Daemon if Rhaenyra's kids are her kids or not, if they are legitimate or not, they are not his kids, the fact that they are bastards that don't look like Targaryens is just the icing on the cake. Also, just because Daemon said something to Rhaenyra doesn't mean that he was talking exactly what he thought and even if it is exactly how he sees the world, that doesn't matter because the question is not about what Rhaenyra can or can't do, but a matter of putting his sons in the throne. I must point out that I can't see Daemon taking lightly if he ever knew that Rhaenyra wasn't faithful to him or even worse if he knew that one of the babies he thought to be his were from someone else.
From the very beginning he did extremely well convey the predatory cunning nature of DT thanks to his amazing acting. How great he looked in armor was another super distracting thing to me hehe
Daemon killing his first wife, cutting people he considered as “criminals” into pieces, killing an innocent man to cover up Laenor’s escape, treating his second wife like trash that she chose to commit suicide during childbirth complication. Fans: “So hot. Truly an internet boyfriend.” Daemon choking Rhaenyra. Fans: “What? So Daemon is evil all along.”
His relationship with Rhaenyra is one of if not the biggest influence on her growing up and his grooming clearly had a massive effect on her, and the biggest aspect was him making her believe they are superior to other people, and they can do whatever they want, which led to so many of the conflicts that caused the war. It's clear him bringing her to a brothel caused her to sleep with Criston without considering what that could do to someone who's life is put at risk by it, and then she feels okay passing off her children as legitimate and has no problem with people being punished for not going along with her lie because she believes she is entitled to whatever she wants as it's the mindset that Daemon instilled in her. The show did a great job at building Rheanyra up to do horrible things simply because she believes she is superior to others, and also have a legitimate reason to be this way. The end of the season seemed to show that losing her son is going to cause her to lose the part of her father that was left in her that had her considering not pursuing war, and now she will embrace the side of her that Daemon wanted, so it will be very interesting to see how Daemon reacts if she takes some of the control he imagined he'd get, and if it causes more conflict within the blacks.
Yeah it's interesting how easily you can see Daemon and Viserys reflected in Rhaenyra's worst choices. A lot of her bad behavior stems from Daemon's philosophy of Targaryen superiority, and a lot of her failure to actually handle her problems stems from Viserys' philosophy of "it's this way because I say so and no I will not elaborate".
@@crossiant9472 no that was obviously disgusting, but everyone in the show is pretty awful to some extent, it just wasn't relevant to talking about Daemon and Rhaenyra's relationship. Saying one thing is bad doesn't mean another is okay. It's one of the great parts of the show, what Otto and Daemon have done has been pretty disgusting but it's clearly benefited them in some ways, but it could also ruin them in the future.
The show really wants their romance to be hot and steamy “I can’t have you but I WANT you” thing so they added the “you were a child” line when Rhaenyra asks why he didn’t marry her. Personally it felt like they were retrograding the existing relationship. HE snuck her out HE brought her to a brothel HE started physically “seducing” her, and left her. The “she’s just a child” thought must have come in… when when?? RIGHT before he was about to have sex with her??
There's a lot of parallels between Daemon and Otto. When Otto says about Daemon that "the gods have yet to make a man who lacks the patience for absolute power," a lot of people have pointed out that this line ironically applies to Otto as well, which is true. But when Daemon later says in that same episode that Otto is a "second son who stands to inherit nothing he doesn't seize for himself," this line, also, ironically applies to Daemon. Otto and Daemon are both ambitious second sons overshadowed by their brothers. Otto seems to be, at least in part, driven by pressure from his brother Hobert. Daemon is desperate to prove himself, not just to his brother, but to the whole realm, which is why he gets so upset when his brother offers to help him, be it in the Stepstones or when he invites him back to King's Landing from Pentos. Otto and Daemon both conform to their cultures' norms and expectations: Daemon is the spitting image of a hot-blooded Valyrian dragonlord thirsty for blood and conquest, and Otto works mercilessly to better position his house in the Westerosi social hierarchy, as is expected of him. Otto and Daemon both have Iron Throne ambition: Otto for pushing Alicent and Aegon, Daemon for marrying Rhaenyra. Otto and Daemon are also the two biggest characters pushing their respective Queens for violence: Alicent and Rhaenyra both want peace, but Otto wants Rhaenyra and her family and allies killed to prevent a war of succession, while Daemon wants to wage war against the Hightowers to kill Otto and the greens for treason. A lot of fans have rightfully called out Otto, but tend to overlook the role Daemon played in starting this war, too. They're both major factors. I'm not defending Otto, but a lot of fans have pinned their blame for this war solely on him, which is just silly. Frankly, I don't think you can really pin the blame on any one or two people, it's definitely a lot more complex than that, driven by structural forces in Westerosi society, but if you're going to put it on anybody, it has to be Otto and Daemon both, really.
Here is the question. If you erase Daemon's marriage to Rhaenyra does Otto still attempt to usurp Rhaenyra? Does the Sea Snake decide to fight to maintain her claim and his grandson's claim to the throne? Because I would argue Otto is usurping Rhaenyra no matter what. Even if her kids weren't bastards. Even of Laenore never left. There was no world in which Otto wasn't going to try to put Aegon on the Iron Throne instead of Rhaenyra. So no, Daemon is not the cause of the war, it would have started even if Daemon was dead in a ditch somewhere.
@@karenholmes6565 The world where Otto not only doesn't object to Rhaenyra being Queen but would support it with all his might. Is the one he asked Viserys to make on Aegons second nameday. Had Viserys wed Rhaenyra to Aegon none of this shit would've happened and thousands of people wouldn't have died horrible brutal and incredibly painful deaths.
@@karenholmes6565 The whole reason Rhaenyra was named heir in the first place was because of how violent and unpredictable Daemon is. Otherwise, Daemon would have remained the uncontested heir. Up until Aegon was born. But then Otto wouldn't be usurping anybody, because Aegon would then be the uncontested heir, since sons come before uncles. Remember: the show makes it clear that Daemon was the heir before Rhaenyra. This whole chain of events starts when Viserys disinherits Daemon to make Rhaenyra his heir. While Otto certainly pushed for that, it wasn't because of his own selfish ambition at this point, Alicent wasn't even married to Viserys yet. It was because Daemon presented a clear threat to the hard-fought peaceful stability of the realm, which is the Hand's duty to protect. Otto definitely has lots of culpability, but it all started with Daemon.
This reminds me of a saying in my country which roughly goes: "Two are needed to dance." It is usually used to point out how no fight is only one person's fault and honestly I am impressed as to how good it can be used for this series.
@@karenholmes6565 Well, Otto did pitch the idea of marrying Rhaenyra to Aegon. Which, if Viserys had agreed, would have put both Rhaenyra and Aegon on the throne. Therefore no need for Otto to usurp her.
I'd like to list out many of Daemon's deeds just for a clean comparison: He killed his wife for no good reason, he killed Vaemond even though only a tongue was asked for, stole a Dragon Egg and nearly caused a conflict right there, jokes over Laena's death and had a disconnect from his daughters with her... Also wanted Laenor dead just so he could marry Rhaenyra too.... and banged her on the funeral night of his 2nd wife. Daemon has proven to be a natural jackass. Like Otto or not, but he's definitely right in not liking the guy for even his own reasons
You forgot how he beat the messenger to death after Viserys told him in a letter to help him about the Stepstones, how he massacred civilians whom he considered to be “criminals” into pieces and how he murdered an innocent man and burned his corpse to cover up Laenor’s escape. But as usual, according to the showrunners, civilians’ lives don’t matter just like how nobody ever bring up how Rhaenys killed so many civilians but somehow didn’t kill the greens thanks to plot armor.
@@nont18411 wait, I thought the messenger lived? Well either way, yeah you're right. While perhaps "some" of those people he maimed may have been Criminals, no proper proof outside of hearsay is troubling to day the least Overall, 100% Daemon's far more dark than he is "Gray". And yeah, why DID Rhaenys kill all those innocent people just to scare the Greens... just to leave later? She told Rhaenyra she "escaped on Meleys" but like, if that's all she wanted to do, why BURST through the Crowd and not, ya know, scare the people out of the way, (maybe roar real at the Greens fine, I get she's not 100% on board with them) then leave with minimal/no casualties?
1. He killed his wife so that he could acquire land as lord of runestone and to free himself up for Rhaenyra 2. Valmont deserved to die, publicly insulting the princess and the heirs is worthy of execution. 3. The whole stole a dragon egg and dragonstone conflict by daemon was obviously a ploy to see Visery's reaction, otto states this too. 4. I don't particularly remember when he joked of laenas death 5. He didn't want Laenor dead, he respected laenor. He worked side by side on the final plan in the steps tones war with Laenor. He just wanted Laenor out of the picture.
@@nont18411 to be fair most of those civilians were criminals and the whole event was to build fear for the gold cloaks and it worked. The innocent guard he killed was so Laenor could live and the whole thing was Rhaenyras plan.
Rhaenyra is put on a girlboss pedestal by fans, but she willingly put the realm at risk for her own desires. She's much like Daenerys in that regard; concerned with more of her own "birthright" than the good of her realm. The whole family is villains, pretty much.
Rhaenyra didn’t put the realm at risk for her own desires. She had kids with Harwin because Laenor was gay which led to complications when it came time to procreate and make heirs. She had to get those heirs from somewhere, so she went with Harwin. Rhaenyra doesn’t really care about her birthright for selfish reasons. She cares because her father entrusted her with knowledge of their true purpose, a knowledge that Aegon II doesn’t have because he’s not the true heir. Rhaenyra also does consider the Hightower’s terms for peace, even after they stole her birthright. That’s something Deanerys would never do . She doesn’t go to war until her son is murdered by them .
The fact that corlys velaryon and rhaenys would agree to rhaenyra sons taking the throne when they always wanted the throne because they had been passed over is unbelievable the show fucked that up
If you haven't figured out that the WMD-riding fascist wizard bloodline are the villains of ASOIAF, you haven't been paying attention. Even a "good" Targ like Rhaegar does destructive shit that ruins Westeros time and again
The fact that him helping Viserys up the stairs is supposed to make him a good brother is just laughable. That’s one good deed compared to decades of screwing up. His poor cousin died screaming and in agony just like her mother(#justicefordaella) and his nephew too, and he JOKES. Imagine if Alicent or Otto did this, they’d be vilified forever. Not to mention the Rhaenyra business (even Emma D’Arcy stated the relationship could not possibly be considered consensual and okay). I’m genuinely concerned with the amount of people who think this sort of relationship is okay, have we forgotten how disgusting it is? When he choked her I was completely unsurprised, but apparently it was a character assassination because “Rhaenyra’s different! He loves her!!! She’s not like the others ☺😡“ Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
LOL bless Emma for totally understanding the character they're playing. And I hate the whole "she's special enough to make him not abusive" trope and as much as I don't want to see Rhaenyra abused, I appreciate that they didn't present it as if she was just special enough to make Daemon change. Daemon loves her, but Daemon is an abusive person, so Rhaenyra is not excluded from his abuse just because he loves her (nor is anyone else that he loves including his kids and his brother).
The same mechanism with how people love Tywin and consider him as a great person because “He had some quirky banters with Arya.” even though he genocided Reynes and Tarbecks in Castamere, he genocided Targaryens and Martells in King’s Landing and also genocided the Starks and Tullys in Red Wedding. He also treated Tyrion and Tysha horribly. Not to mention how he raised Cersei and Joffrey to become psychopaths but nope, all is well because he was kind to a girl that he didn’t know came from a family he murdered.
@@HillsAliveYT I find it interesting how, when Daemon is critisised by the actual writers or actors, the fans either rail against them (in the case of Sara Hess) or outright ignore them (Like Emma). But when it comes to Matt Smith they hang on his every word.
The double marriage between Jace/Luke and Baela/Rhaena is also very convenient for Daemon, but also worse Rhaenyra's claim, as he could had promised both of them to powerfull families to help increase her faction's size. It's sad that the show seems to show it as a decision of Rhaenyra and not something Daemon may had talked to her for years at this point. Jace and Luke also seems strangely poorly trained in the arts of battle and war. One would think they would had become skilled warriors under the tutelage of their step-father, given i suppose their training would had fallen under him (Luke especially seems completely ignorant regarding seafaring stuff, by his own admission. Why not training him as such in preparation of taking Driftmark?). I think there is the possibility in case of Rhaenyra's conquest of the throne, that a series of "accidents" could had opened the way for Aegon the Younger or Viserys taking the throne (AND Driftmark, given with the Strong's premature deaths Baela would had become the uncontested owner of the isle) and marrying both Baela and Rhaena, making Daemon's triumph pretty much total.
Yeah I think that's a good point about their training specifically, Jace and Luke actually seem shockingly underprepared for the roles they're meant to play in general but while I don't know that Daemon would necessarily plot their demise, he could be relying on someone else killing them (which is honestly a pretty solid bet) and putting his children from Rhaenyra and Laena on the throne.
Remember: Otto would've been fine with Rhaenyra as queen of she married Aegon II. That would've made Otto and his entire family into Rhaenyra's fan club, including Alicent.
@UCdRWv4qN2MHzrkjZi9qMZtg Imagine marrying your father's cousin to cement a political alliance. Philip II of Spain had to do that to maintain England as an ally.
Yeah but Viserys for all his fault clearly at least saw marrying teenagers to children or 30-year-olds to children as evil. Considering the books it might have been connected to the fact that it probably caused the death of Aemma or simply because he is a normal human being forced into marrying her so young. Either way, the point is marrying Aegon II with Rhaenyra is a brilliant political move but disgusting and probably ended badly as the two would hate being stuck to each other.
I've always thought that Rhaenyra marrying Daemon was actually a dumb political choice for her personally. Laenor technically got her the support of the richest family in Westeros and at least 2 more dragons in Laenor and Rhaenys. Now if she still pulled a make Laenor disappear, it would of been smarter to marry someone from a different family, most likely a lord paramount's son or brother as that family would then be more invested. I also thought the betrothal of her sons to Baela and Rhaena wasn't that smart politically but I blame that on her having 3 kids with another man and needing the Velaryons to be appeased to eventually have their blood on the throne. But other than that, if she did have trueborn children then one of the four storm daughters would probably of been a smart choice. Hell, a Hightower daughter might of been a smart choice too as it would of divided House Hightower. But these are just my ramblings.
I mean in a very real sense, he is LITERALLY the worst person that she could have married because her inheritance was largely defined by avoiding Daemon, and on top of that because the Strongs are obvious Strongs she has to arrange betrothals with Velaryons who she should theoretically already have the support of, and even with their betrothals it's obvious that not all of the Velaryons will be on her team. When it comes to strategic marriages Rhae defo gets an F.
@@HillsAliveYT Its morbidly ironic in a sense that both Rhaenyra and Alicent are, for lack of a better term, less than optimal players of the game, while Otto and Daemon excel at it.
i disagree with the part that marrying someone else other than daemon if she decided to "let go" of laenor is a better choice for her. no matter how much you hate or like daemon, he is a seasoned dragonrider who has been to a warzone with his dragon. there is not a more compelling military ally other than daemon and caraxes. if she gets daemon and caraxes, she and him can do a shit ton of destruction against entire armies the way aegon and visenya did after rhaenys and meraxes died. realistically, daemon is a key military player and caraxes is a formidable weapon. honestly, there is no argument against daemon being a dragonlord as one of his actual strengths. you're seriously going to have rhaenyra marry some hightower or any non-valyrian family and try to justify that as "the better" choice against daemon in terms of strategy? that's just plain foolish. this doesn't even have anything to do with her being in love with daemon. daemon is just the most formidable dragon rider currently alive.
@@maggyfrog Uh, Daemon made sense if we are talking about dragons. But if we are talking about politics, then he's the literal worst choice for her. And I never mentioned her marrying a Hightower, I said that marrying her son to a Hightower daughter might of been politically smart but she couldn't do that due to the betrothals to Baela and Rhaena to appease the Velaryons
I think Rhaenyra and Daemon's different reactions to the Green Coup prove that Otto was right. We are endeared to Daemon because of his love for his family, but the rest of the realm doesn't know that and isn't priviledged enough to be part of that family and therefore safe from harm. Keeping Daemon away from the throne is in the best interest of everyone and his immediate jump to war and violence as soon as he hears the news is proof of this (along with you know, everything else). But, it also shows that Otto underestimated Rhaenyra as an actual political ruler. If Otto truly cared about getting Daemon as far away from the line of succession as possible he should have not tried to undermine Rhaenyra as much, and instead looked for other ways to join her claim and the claims of the hightower targs so they Daemon couldn't marry her and tag his claim onto hers. Unfortunately, his family's ambition got in the way because anything less than Aegon on the throne would be seen as a failure by Hobert (presumably). Some very interesting points, another great video. There are obviously the two sides in this conflict, but they are clearly more nuanced too. I am pro-Rhaenyra, but also anti-Daemon. The green kids aren't the worst (except Aegon) and I can understand Alicent, but I can't get over Otto pushing his own ambitions and agenda to the detriment of the realm. I really hope they make the dragonseeds, especially Hugh Hammer, a sort of "team smallfolk" perspective.
Yeah most definitely, it's interesting how much Daemon and Otto seem to be two sides of the same coin in that as soon as Viserys was dead, they started making moves to counterbalance the moves that they knew they both would make. Otto's major character flaw is ironically being unable to get the people he needs to trust him to actually trust him, even in the instances where his intentions are good or at least valid, as he failed to do that with Viserys and then Rhaenyra.
Hugh Hammer? I still wish there was actually a chance that Henry Cavill would have signed with HotD and been cast as Hugh. I know a lot of people liked the actor that played Ser Harwin, but it bothered me that you could tell he wasn't actually very big, even though he was "the strongest knight in the realm" according to the book. In fact, all the actors that play knights, Criston, Arryk and Erryk, actually have very lean, almost skinny, physiques. Would it kill these actors in a big budget show to workout and eat more for such a role? Seems like the bigger and more mainstream a show is nowadays, the less the actors ,and even producers I suppose, care about physicality. Sorry for the ramble, great thoughts you had tho.
Right! If Otto could have persuaded allicent to marry helaena to jacerys then rhaenrya wouldn't have desperately schemed to get rid of laenor as she would feel much more secure. And I know maybe it's crazy but she could have even given up her claim and let jacaerys rule when viserys died as he was basically of age and being married to halaena Otto wouldn't start a war as his granddaughter is queen and their son would be king and still be part hightower. And Rhaenyra would make a small sacrifice and transfer her claim to her son. Avoiding war in all scenarios really. In a world that isn't designed for out entertainment : p
@@HillsAliveYT You are right they two sides of the same coin. I do believe that in episode 9 when Otto planned to killed Rheanyra and Deamon people people kept saying that he is doing the same thing that he warned Alicent. True, but I have no doubt in my mind that Deamon would think to do the same to Alicents and her kids. He may have loved Viserys but he has no emotional attachment to none his kids except Rheanyra. They have practical view in how this world works but different ways of maneuvering it.
I don't get how most people are so head over hills by Daemon, because he's manipulative, he manipulates Rhaenyra and her children under the disguise of caring and teaching them, and I get so frustrated at Rhaenyra for falling so easily, of course most of it it's because he has spent years grooming her, so she can't notice, but he groomed the audience as well. Emotionally, the show pushes us to support team Black, they have the best, most loving moments, while the greens have all the ugly, hideous moments, and they want you to think they're hideous, terrible, spiteful people when only Aegon is walking breathing trash. Of course this shifted with Aemond but just because he's Daemon Junior. But if you give it two seconds of objective thinking, the Greens are right. Okay Rhaenyra is named heir, but her claim obviously gets weakened when Aegon is born, she should've notice that. But instead of looking ways to give her claim power, she has bastard children that are obviously bastards and doesn't get any more political strength besides the Velaryons (as far as the show shows). Then she plays a part in "killing" her husband to marry the man everyone wanted out of the Iron Throne. Like, gurl. And Viserys defends all of this wrong actions, because is t's his little girl. It was a beautiful moment to see him sit on the Iron Throne one last time, but what was he defending? The claim of a bastard, once again, for the wrongdoings of his daughter. His own son looses an eye and he just slaps the wrist of Luke and sends him to sleep, Aemond had more consequences and he was the victim. And we're gaslighted to think that Alicent did wrong when she attacked Rhaenyra, someone who had never suffered consequences of her actions and she has had to endure those consequences for her. So, what does Rhaenyra learns? Nothing. Her and Luke's actions have no consequences. And that makes her vulnerable to Daemon's manipulation and the right shield for him to do whatever, and hide behind Rhaenyra, because she can protect him from consequences. Or just charms and outwits himself for getting any type of punishment. The Greens have suffered the consequences of what they do and they say, even Aegon suffers some backlash for his personality and actions. And he married Helaena and has a two male babies and a girl. Between him and the princess that has three bastards and marries the most undesearable Targaryen available, you tell me...
People legit shipped Daemon and Rhaenyra the entire season, ignored every sign the show gave that you're not supposed to think a bloodthirsty, significantly older UNCLE is the best suitor for his neice. People kept saying their chemistry was magnetic, or whatever but it's like... Every scene they're in together, he's subtly shaping her views and opinions to match his own...? He left her pantsless in a brothel! He muuuuurdered his wife!!! Yeah, I firmly believe it's the taboo nature of Daemon and Rhaenyra's relationship that drew people in. What else is there to like? And there's no shame for that, you can ship who you want. But at least be AWARE if and how that ship is toxic, you know?
OMG, Thank you! Nobody remembers that Otto Hightower was the first and strongest advocate to make Rhaenyra the heir. His isn`t ride or die for male primogeniture. He is ride or die for what is overall best for the realm, and what is best for the realm is for Daemon to be nowhere near the Iron Throne. But that whole arithmetic changes once Aegon is born. Look at Otto like he is grasping and greedy if you want, but what he says to Alicent before he leaves King`s Landing isn`t wrong; "If Rhaenyra follows Viserys upon the Iron Throne, war will follow. The realm will not accept her. And to secure her claim, she will have to put your children to the sword. She`ll have no choice." And that statement only gets more true as the years progress. That was before Rhaenyra compromised her position by giving birth to three such strong boys. That was before she married Daemon less than a year after the very suspicious death of her husband.
Otto should have worked better and harder then to draw Rhaenyra to his side, could have married her to Aegon and did better to convince Viserys. Or hell, just tell Viserys to not remarry and keep Rhaenyra as heir and actually train her. But he wanted power consolidated to him, he sent Alicent there for a reason. He knew this could lead to conflict and civil war and he still chose the route
it definitely creates a connection as to why there was so much undermining of rheynera. Everyone started believing she would be as pliable as viserys but soon realized she is more like daemon, couple that with her actually marrying daemon means that in everyone else's eyes she's as volatile and cannot have power.
Definitely agree, think it's clear that Daemon is in a lot of ways the centerpiece of this conflict. People so stuck on Daemyra and thinking Daemon is this amazing malewife, they don't see the deeper side of his intentions.
dude, no one is calling daemon a good person. literally the only people complaining about daemon are the only ones implying that he is being seen as a pure hero. i'm yet to encounter a thread about liking daemon and seeing him only as a hero. all threads i've seen about liking daemon is about how he is a crazy mix of both dark and light, and the ones who like daemon even agree that it's in his nature to choke rhaenyra the way he did in the show.
That may be true, but tbf so would Aegon and Otto still wants that sadistic rapist on the throne. I guess once it's about his family, Otto's common sense flies out the window?
What would Otto know about being a good ruler? He's been hand for how many years and hasn't any knowledge of children fighting rings existing. He has been purging the goldcloaks for years just to remove Daemons influence. Otto only seems to care about his families hold on power and the status quo.
if otto actually cared abt the realm he wouldn’t want his rapist drunken grandson in the throne, but yet here we are. He wants power, he is a good hand and an intelligent man who knows how to do his job. But a lot of his decisions ended up backfiring
@@patrickbarrett4071 Otto knows how other nobles work. And you need their support to run the country, since you cannot rule a nation from dragonback. Daemon's only response to people not bowing down to him is to strike them down. He'd be Maegor 2.0, and I wouldn't be surprised that if they won, Daemon would totally undermine Rhaenyra's hold on the throne and go from king consort to just plain king.
I love how the fandom has characterized Otto as the evil schemer who will stop at nothing to achieve power and Daemon as the jerk-with-a-heart-of-gold who's just trying to protect his family and the realm, when the reverse is just as valid an interpretation. Great video, as always.
I think the most incredible part of all is that they managed to characterise him in a way he's so loved, and yet the very same fanbase accuses them of trying to villanize him 🤦🏼♂️
I respectfully disagree that the reverse is completely valid. Otto almost never does anything selflessly, yes, he made his daughter the most powerful woman in the seven kingdoms but it was because he was the second most powerful man and after Viserys' weakened state (which may also be a conspiracy of the maesters and Hightowers) he became the most powerful man in all but name, so he and his house were practically in complete power. Whereas Daemon does several selfless things for his family- he doesn't take Rhaenyra's virginity, he protects Viserys, defends Rhaenyra's and her son's honour by killing Vaemond, and (DEATH SPOILERS for the book/later seasons ahead) he will die taking revenge for Rhaenyra's son's death, just to name a few examples off the top of my head. Daemon cares but Otto doesn't. He's like Tywin and Roose Bolton in the sense they're obsessed with image and how their house is perceived by others, not so much whether the people of the house are doing well. That's why he fails and Daemon, by extension, doesn't.
@@stars-and-clouds Not taking Rhaenyra's virginity and killing Vaemond are not 'selfless acts'. One would be the absolute baseline for not being a piece of shit, and the other is him igoring common law because he knows he'll get away with it. Killing a lord in court should come with extreme consequence (like many other things he does), but he never faces that.
@@equu497 I mean, he isn't exactly the pinnacle of virtue xD those are great acts for him because he doesn't hesitate from doing such things normally, that's just his baseline. We can't compare him to Ned Stark. As for Vaemond, he had already committed treason, for which the king himself had declared a punishment. Killing Vaemond is selfless bc he doesn't have any beef with him and it's not his children that are losing the seat of Driftmark, it's Rhaenyra's. I'm not arguing that Daemon is a good guy, but Otto and him are not one and the same and as such not reversible in terms of character and morality. shit
It needs to be noted that in even the most absolute monarchies laws of succession are often considered beyond the king's right to touch, being established by precedent or law( as set by wars, religion, early founding monarchs or immemorial custom). And westeros is anything but an absolute monarchy, with the crown controlling little beyond king's landing, even with dragons. I have a theory that the reason Viserys refused to budge in his choice of heirs is that he wanted to prove the crown's authority over even the most.timeless of customs, and the decisions of previous monarchs: the right of the crown to not be bound by such things being the most contested in all historical monarchies(and really all states, just look at how sacrosanct parts of the constitution are considered). He chose the worst hill to die on though given the reality on the ground.
Yeah I find the notion that the king can just will the throne to whoever they want to be a really odd idea that comes up almost constantly in discussions about the Dance. Yes, the king is in a position of power over everyone, but throughout the entire WOIAF history it has been established that the king CAN'T just do whatever he likes, and oftentimes that lesson has been imparted in situations much less important than the succession.
@@HillsAliveYT generally speaking changing a law of succession requires both the approval of the monarch and the approval of some analogue of parliament, typically with more than just a simple majority, and even then succession wars are likely(see the lead up to the carlist wars for a good model). The effect is compounded in a highly decentralized monarchy like westeros. And choosing a daughter when a son is available in a highly patriarchal society like westeros would be about as insane as the king of France trying to establish hellenic paganism as the state religion. Whatever you think of females or hellenism, its just not something you can do without changing all of society from the ground up.
I know very little about real-life medieval history, is this what you're basing it on? Or is that true in Westeros too? I only ask because I remember in GoT, Stannis, a character very devoted to the law (at least nominally), says something along the lines of "the king's word is the law," and that's something that's kind of kept me stumped in the Dance of the Dragons since Viserys was pretty explicit in naming his daughter heir. Was Stannis's statement not in the books, or rather, perhaps should not be taken so literally?
THANK YOU!!! I honestly felt so vindicated on my feelings about Daemon when he choked Rhaenyra. Like you said, I HATED to see that happen to her, but I'm glad they didn't whitewash his character for the fans. But then I got back online and... it's so soul crushing so see that, instead of that moment making fans consider his true character, they're excusing it and making "kinky" memes. Sometimes it seems like everyone else is seeing this show in a completely different way than me, and it's so reassuring to know there are in fact others thinking critically about this. Thank you for another great video!!!
To be fair, Daemon doesn't do this in the book and there is no indication that he has. He is also not responsible for Rhea Royce's death. He did love Laena and his girls. The show is going out of their way to make him a complete villain unnecessarily. We know he's not a good person but just using actual examples from Fire and Blood would convey that. At the same time they humanize monsters like Aemond. That amped up.his villainy and love story with Rhaenyra, something that felt like more of a political alliance with love sprinkled in and not some epic romance. I won't be shocked if they have Daemon carry out the Blood and Cheese act himself.
I don't know. To me it doesn't really feel like Daemon loves anyone unselfishly. Pursuing Rhaenria seemed more like reclaiming his position in the family. Even when he was being loyal to Viserys it felt more like he wanted to proof Otto and the others wrong. Or maybe he knew nobody wanted him on the throne. That man is extremely suspect to me.
Yeah I agree, and while I don't like the scene of Daemon strangling Rhaenyra I thought the show did a good job of demonstrating that love doesn't stop you from being an abusive manipulative jerkoff if you're an abusive manipulative jerkoff. So I think that he does love Rhaenyra, but he loves her selfishly like he does everyone else.
Another slam dunk video, this is far and away my favorite channel for ASOIAF content. It seems other channels tend to throw out critical analysis whenever Rhaenrya and Daemon are involved. Keep up the great work.
Daemon was known for being the Rogue Prince, not because of being a political master who could outwit anyone with his intelligence or wisdom to serve under him, rather he was a literal fire ball that will get everyone attention and will probably set fire to several people and buildings to ashes.
As usual, amazing content. I get really tired of hearing and seeing the same "team black is perfect, wonderful and so much better than team green" propaganda. You actually treat both sides fairly and shine an insightful light on their good aspects and also their bad ones equally. It's such a breath of fresh air tbh I swear, keep up the great work!
If he became king, he'd ruin the realm. He's far too much like Maegor, arrogant and possessing a enormous superiority streak, with a impossibility to treat non targaryens as equals or even interact with the lords of the realm if they aren't valyrian. He also only wants a valyrian ideally his niece as a wife, meaning his power security would be limited since he would probably have a fit if there were any suggestions of him marrying his sons or daughters to anyone not their sibling or cousin. He would exterminate Alicent's children to ensure no enemies and cause he hates Alicent and Otto, kinslaying doesn't bother him and he doesn't consider anyone not Rhaenyra, Viserys or Rhaenys as targaryens and family. Heck knowing him he'd try and invade Dorne and then Essos, beggaring the realm. He loves war and bloodshed, he's not a man of peace, he was miserable in Pentos. And he might even go so far as to burn Oldtown to the ground which would inflame Westeros and the Seven followers, since he hates Otto. He's also stated he believes it's okay to have multiple wives and Aegon was wrong not to have preserved this right, so that's another blow to him. The biggest problem is knowing how much he distrusts anyone not targaryen or of valyrian blood, he'd probably attempt to make the kingdoms ruled under by his own family, so replacing the lords paramounts with his children, since he is a superiority person and it would remove all worries of rebellion or disloyalty in his mind.
I've peeped Daemon's plan for a while. That's why I couldn't get down with him from the start. Yes, there's love for his family, but he wants that power. I feel like it was confirmed with him smearing her reputation earlier, and him going too far with physical abuse of Rhaenrya by choking her. He's not hiding it very well and Rhaenrya seems to be blind to it.
My far less nuanced take on what you've described so eloquently - if Daemon wasn't such a fucking loose canon, everyone would've been fine to have him stay the Heir > less pressure on Viserys to scramble and make more sons, maybe Aemma would still be alive. Rhaenyra could've married and birthed as many Strong's as her heart desired, in peace! I didn't really see it before but damn... Daemon kinda ruined everything (/s, but not really)
actually, it was mainly otto who poisoned everyone's mind about daemon. he did this because he knew that daemon can smell that he is a rat in viserys' ears.
@@maggyfrog What the fuck are you talking about?Otto didn't need to poison anybody's mind.Daemon is already a vile deranged pedo and only thing Otto did was tell what he did to Viserys.
@@maggyfrog Otto was the faithful hand since before Viserys even became king. He only started to become treacherous after Allicent had Aegon. And Dameon's hate toward Otto is jealousy as he himself implied in the show that he wanted to be hand in episode 1.
@@davidnwaokolo1905 oh come on. you're supposed to read the book with a grain of salt. he had to appear faithful in order to get his bloodline into the iron throne. you're misunderstanding otto if you think he is a saint. this isn't that kind of story.
@@maggyfrog Going purely off show here. Referring solely to before Aemma even died. Otto, as far as we know from the show, wasn't treacherous until Aegon was born.
I’m so glad I have found your channel! 💚I am tired of the constant fan-girling over Daemon and Rhae. I get tired of fans thinking of this conflict of a sort of Starks Vs Lannisters where there are clear good guys. They are all self-serving, and ruthless people on both sides of the Dance. I feel in such a minority as someone who overall sympathises more with the Greens. This is even without my favourite character and dragon: Ser Daeron the Daring and Tessarion the Blue Queen. Keep up the great videos!!! 💚🐉
Daemon seems very keen on upholding "pure Valyrian" traditions, which would obviously put him at odds with the Andal Hightowers that worship the Seven.
Well, and that also puts him at odds with nearly the entire population of Westeros. I found it interesting how many people took Alicent's abrupt Seven representation as some sign that she'd become a religious nut rather than her building a much better political foundation by exemplifying that her side of the family was more respectful of and connected to Westerosi tradition, especially when the Faith is based in Oldtown and holds so much sway over the country at large.
@@HillsAliveYT Well, I'm biased towards the Hightowers and Andals as a whiole. Oldtown seems a substantially better place to live than the shithole of King's Landing and massive fire-breathing monstrosities is no basis for government.
Yeah I am similarly biased towards the Hightowers because I just find it fascinating that they have been the greatest power in the greatest city in Westeros since before history was even recorded, and for the most part they're either just chilling or up to some super secret shit that they tell no one about.
@@HillsAliveYT As someone who watches too many period dramas, I'm actually perplexed that people are surprised that a character from a show that's based on medieval European history is... religious? Whoddathunk?
@@HillsAliveYT If by interestjing you mean odd, the show threw in some lines that would make that conclusion obvious. First, her conversation with Cole where she she stops him from calling Rhaenyra names by asserting they should seek the moral road even though she herself had been pretty cruel in disparaging Rhaenyra (and had an oathbreaker and murderer as her sworn shield). Then when the conflict between the children led to Alicent's and Rhaenyra's confrontation, it seemed as if they both acknowledged that her religiousness was a cover for her ambitions and resentments. It makes sense that the audience would see her more overt displays of commitment to the Seven as a way to both repent but also to deepen her guise. She had not up to that point come across as especially politically astute. She was pretty sloppy which is one of the reasons her child was calling his nephews bastards and threatening to kill them. It's more a problem with the pacing of the show than the audience that they were slow to see her changes as securing alliances with religious leaders than trying to prove her piety to the kingdom. That is a tactic with Otto's name all over it, and it would have been useful to have seen them discussing it.
Yeah, he's a incompetent bureaucrat who feels entitled to the second highest position in the realm and a groomer and abuser and a heartless mass murderer who wages war in the Stepstones out of petty vindictive rage and again in Westeros for power. But on the other hand it was pretty cool when he murdered that dude and said, "he can keep his tongue" and it was nice of him to help his leprosy ridden brother up some steps. Gosh, he's just a morally gray scamp. Seriously I don't understand how George can call him made of equal parts light and darkness, like, nah, that scales tipped towards the darkness side. A "villain to some and a hero to others" who are those others? And can I please never meet them.
You are my ultimate favorite content creator for the song of ice and fire content, tv shows and etc. You are so smart in the way you analyze things. Incredible!
The thing is, even if Daemon did really love Rhaeneyra, as I think is portrayed as being true to some extent in the show as in he genuinely likes her and respects her strength, and is sexually attracted to her, it’s still 100% irrelevant because he fuckin groomed her to have access to her power by proxy as king consort, and was willing to ruin her reputation to get what he wanted. It’s Daemon. Just because he’s played amazingly by Matt Smith doesn’t mean he’s a good guy😂 Daemon is extremely calculating but he loved his brother enough not to directly usurp him so long as he was above ground.
It was interesting that Daemon and Rhaenyra ended up together. It would have been interesting to see what happened if Laenor and Rhaenyra had true born sons together. Maybe I Alicent would have been more onboard with this because it would mean that Rhaenyra had fulfilled her duty to have true born heirs and maybe Alicent would respect that and follow Viserys plan for the throne. I think a big part of this was her seeing Rhaenyra as irresponsible, and disrespectful of rules and was angry that the person breaking the rules was going to face no consequences. I guess that’s the tragedy of it all though all the “what ifs” that could have averted disaster. They aren’t going to make a tv show about Jahery’s peaceful reign they are making one about the the “war of fire and blood”
Well ironically another aspect of the story that a lot of people willfully ignore is that Alicent wasn't denying a marriage between Jace and Helaena just to be an asshole, but because it puts Helaena in a really dangerous situation for a claim that is almost certainly going to be challenged. Essentially, it's a situation that heavily favors Rhaenyra at Helaena's expense, because Helaena becomes a sort of insurance that Alicent and her family have to fight for Rhaenyra's claim when Jace's legitimacy is inevitably challenged. I think she is definitely frustrated by Rhaenyra's rule-breaking, but I think she is even more frustrated that in many situations like this one, Rhae expects other people to bear the brunt of her mistakes. If Rhaenyra's children by Laenor had been legitimate then it at least would have been a more favorable match, even if people challenged Jace's Iron Throne claim, his claim to Driftmark would not be up for debate, but Alicent is likely so pissed about the offered betrothal because it's obvious that Rhaenyra is trying to use Helaena as a bit of a shield, and if it were anyone besides Viserys' willfully ignorant ass hearing it they'd recognize it for the dickery it was.
I think it would have prevented a lot if not all of the conflict? If they had trueborn sons there would be no need for Laenor to die/fake his death and for Rhaenyra to marry Daemon and have actual trueborn sons. As was pointed out, people wanted to support Rhaenyra because they didn’t want Daemon on the throne. I think Allicent would’ve aproved for Jace and Heleana’s bethrotal in this scenario, because he wouldn’t be a bastard
Westeros: “ok vizzy here’s what we’ll do. We’ll make an exception to a century of tradition and rules and pledge our loyalty to Rhaenyra bc at least she’s better than daemon and we’ll do whatever it takes to keep him away from the throne” Viserys: “yes deal” Rhaenyra: *marries daemon* Westeros: (╯°-°）╯︵ ┻━┻
I think rhaenyra never knew that she was only named heir to disinherit daemon Rhaenyra never thought that she was only a use and throw material I guess 🤔
Daemon may be impulsive and have a cruel disposition at times, but is he really that big of a threat to the realm ? Is he the one who starts a war just to put his psycho grandson on the throne ? Who actively commits treason and goes back on the word of their house ? Rhaenyra was named heir to spurn Daemon, because Viserys was mad at him. But was it the right decision ? It’s no coincidence that right after, he cut himself on the throne ( the cut that eventually festers and leads to the amputation of his fingers). I like Rhaenyra, and I feel she would’ve made a great queen If it weren’t for the terrible and tragic war known as the dance of the dragons. A conflict which drove her into madness simply because someone can really only handle losing a child so many times before they’re irreplaceably broken (that war was started by the Hightower’s btw). But maybe Daemon should’ve been king or at least trusted by Viserys more . It’s telling that Viserys never told Daemon about Aegon’s dream and the prophecy, not just because it shows he never fully trusted Daemon, but also because perhaps if he had, Daemon would be very different. Knowing that the Targaryens had a higher purpose and that they were instrumental in the literal prevention of the future apocalypse, that definitely would’ve changed Daemon. He would’ve understood his brother infinitely more, he would’ve understood the true weight and responsibility of the iron throne and being heir. He wouldn’t be so reckless and violent as he turned out being. Daemon is the way he is largely because he’s always seeking approval from his big bro, because Viserys means a lot to him. That feeling of rejection is what hurts Daemon, and drives him to cause a lot of the chaos he does, It’s all out of a want to have his brothers attention and approval. Viserys should’ve trusted Daemon more, and I think he realized that later on as a dying man. When he saw how happy Daemon and Rhaenyra were together and the family they had, not to mention when Daemon helped Viserys onto the very throne that Otto and the other leeches on the council were so sure he was trying to take away and usurp . In the end, the only one truly trying to do that were the Hightower’s .
@@mackmitchell94 i don't see the argument for daemon to be king. even from a strictly legal standpoint, andal succession goes 'sons before daughters, daughters before uncles'. jaehaerys subverted the law when he passed over rhaenys for baelon/viserys. under andal law, all of viserys' kids would come before daemon. it's only because of jaehaerys' precedent that this was unclear. if viserys hadn't named rhaenyra heir, his first son with his second wife would be the unambiguous heir.
Rhaenyra realizes the motivations for being named heir. She says as much in episode two when speaking to Alicent in the sept. "He didn't name me as heir. He spurned Daemon". The writers more-or-less complicate the issue of her pursuing Daemon for marriage. Given the historic element and viewpoint that the book tells the story from, this particular story has already happened. The show just displays to us how or why from the character's viewpoint. Which makes it extremely questionable from one stand point why she angled for marriage with Daemon. At the expense of her in-laws/ cousins(Velaryons) becoming estranged to them. Which just makes the unification of the two families undone. Basically pissing in Viserys' face two fold.
@@k.w.8332 the reason she married Daemon is because she’s had the hots for him since she was a girl and also because she feels threatened by the greens and having him by her side will add strength and a healthy fear to those thinking to steal her birthright .
well a lot of people criticize Rhaenyra for marrying Daemon(which is fair) because Daemon was extremely hated, by the ppl of the realm,because of how ruthless and chaotic it was. The episode 7 explains on why Rhaenyra chooses Daemon as her consort. After the whole loosing an eye thing with Aemond, rhaenyra pretty much saw that there would be conflict surrounding Alicent’s side of the family and her family, Rhaenyra tells Daemon “lets marry so no one could challenge my throne” pretty much Rhaenyra thinks that if she has as someone as dangerous like Daemon in her side, people will not dare to question her or her children. Also obviously her attachment towards him. Rhaenyra pretty much knows that there is gonna be conflict in the future, Laenor is barely there, and when she doesn’t have her father to defend her, she is pretty much alone. I can understand why it was say it was a bad political move for Rhaenyra to marry Daemon, but also we need to remember Daemon is very intelligent, cunning and overall very skilled warrior, qualities that would be useful to the blacks. episode 10 shows us how dangerous and chaotic Daemon can truly get and how Rhaenyra was trying to keep things peaceful and show restraint, however for war Daemon is a very useful tool
2:17 The thing is, Laenor’s claim stems from his mother Rhaenys. So in actuality, it’s Rhaenys’s claim that ought to have been put forward, and she should have been queen. Jon Snow tells us in Dance that a daughter comes before a brother in the North, making Alys Karstark heir to Karhold ahead of her uncle. Which explains why the Starks supposed Rhaenys over Viserys in 101 AC.
I mean I certainly agree with you philosophically, but Rhaenys actually did put her own claim forward and was denied because she was a woman, and then put forward Laenor's claim.
@@HillsAliveYT But that’s the issue; Laenor is only considered because of his mother. If she is dismissed because of her sex, then Laenor is dismissed by default, since if she has no right, why should he ? And I suppose that’s the point; weaken Rhaenys’s position by framing the argument around her son.
@@HillsAliveYT i think rhaenys could have been the queen if daemon and probably viserys werent misogynistic. like in westros daughters inheriting before uncles is very common and would have been far far more accepting than sisters inheriting before brothers. but it only didnt happen as daemon have been collecting a army to support his brothers claim over rhaenys jahaerys was truly a wise one. he saw the conflict coming from a mile away. he knew both factions will fight as rhaenys had support of valryons and daemons side was misogynistic punks who will exert there claim for being male and coming from a male line. and a war was surely to come. so he let a council decide for him so both sides will be satisfied and loosing side wont call for the war as the matter would be settled they will already know where the allegiance of lords nd ladies lie.
I hated Daemon since ep 1 when he pretty clearly stated "all cops are bastard and I am the biggest and most violent bastard of them all". My hatred solidified when he committed feminicide against his first wife. When he choked Rhaenyra I was expecting it. He is a violent man. It's kind of sad that Rhaenyra's claim is so undermined by him, since I do believe she would have been the better ruler. Between Aegon the drunk-rapist-with-no-sense-of-duty and Daemon i-take-fire-and-blood-to-the-extreme, I do believe Rhaenyra would have been the better choice. In the last episodes she shows a lot of growth in her diplomacy and her attempts to avoid or at least delay bloodshed as much as possible.
The title for this video is awesome 😂 Also I love how the show purposely shows similarities between Dany and Daemon, except Daemon is universally agreed to be a potentially crappy ruler, and Dany is praised for being a good queen, for…reasons 🤷🏽♀️ Anyway, with that said, Matt Smith is an incredible Daemon ❤
Just because we didn’t see her reaction to her son’s permanent disappearance onscreen, the young man Daemon murdered at Driftmark in order to fake Laenor’s death had a mother, too. Virtually every character on Team Black regards common people as disposable NPCs.
As bad a king as Viserys was he was wise enough to keep his brother away from the throne. He loved Daemon, but he didn't let that love blind him from the truth either. It is also a bit funny and ironic that Otto, who thinks Daemon would be a terrible ruler, doesn't try to join his family with Rhaenyras, ensuring war will follow. It even extends to his grandson Aemond who thinks his older brother is unworthy of the throne, yet on his first(?) mission he lets his emotions get to him and becomes a kinslayer as well as a messenger/envoy slayer, which is hardly something a proper king would do in the eyes of the realm.
It really feels like Rhaenyra is just purposefully shooting herself in the foot sometimes. I want to root for her, but she keeps making so many bad choices.
Hmmm interesting points, but I would disagree from both a book!Daemon and show!Daemon perspective (for different reasons tho, but they’re both about his marriage to Laena Velaryon) show!Daemon: In the show, Daemon married Laena and they run away across the narrow sea. But at that point, Daemon is completely done with Westerosi politics. He refuses to go back even though his wife is begging him, he says that he’s done with the politics and succession drama, he doesn’t care anymore. After Laena dies, Viserys offers him a place at court but he refuses and says ‘Pentos is my home’. It’s only after Rhaenerya approaches him, they sleep together and she proposes marriage that he gets brought back into the politics of Westeros. Yes, Daemon had been scheming to marry Rhaenyra but once she married Laenor and he married Laena he was done with that. I don’t think it’s really right to say his eventual marriage to Rhaenyra was a calculated long game to de facto usurp her power for himself because he had no idea that Laena would die and Rhaenyra would still have feelings for him. He had given up on politics by the time we get to episode 6/7. Rhaenyra was the biggest driving force for their marriage because she said she needed him. She approached him at Laena’s funeral, he had rejected Viserys and wanted to go back to Pentos. I think show!Daemon cares less about being king than you think. His motivations are way more simple. He wants respect and acknowledgement (and to kill the Hightowers). He would’ve had that as heir. After that’s taken away from him, he goes to win glory at the Stepstones. He then tries to get that respect by marrying Rhaenerya. After that fails, he goes to Essos where being a dragon rider gets him a lot of respect, he doesn’t like Pentos but he likes the attention and having the prince of Pentos offer him lands and glory (+the opportunity to win glory defending Pentos from the triarchy). Then Rhaenyra admits she needs him to be her king consort, that’s another opportunity for the respect and attention he feels he deserves. Then after the DOTD starts, he pushes so hard for war because it’s another opportunity for war glory (and to kill his Hightower rivals). I don’t think Daemon is this schemer who wants the iron throne for himself tbh. His motivations are still bad, he’s a warmonger and a glory/attention seeker, but I don’t think his whole thing was to have power for himself.
*Quotes* *by* *Daemon* Dark Sister was made for nobler tasks than slaughtering sheep. She has a thirst for blood.[1] -Daemon to Corlys Velaryon The war will end when the heads of the traitors are mounted on spikes above the King's Gate, and not before.[9] -Daemon to Corlys Velaryon Aemond: You were a fool to come alone. Daemon: Were I not alone, you would not have come. Aemond: Yet you are, and here I am. You have lived too long, uncle. Daemon: On that much we agree.[8] -Aemond Targaryen and Daemon *Quotes* *about* *Daemon* On no account can Prince Daemon be allowed to ascend to the Iron Throne. He would be a second Maegor the Cruel, or worse. Better the Realm's Delight than Lord Flea Bottom.[1] -Otto Hightower writing to Viserys I Targaryen Make no mistake, should Rhaenyra ever sit the Iron Throne, it will be Lord Flea Bottom who rules us, a king consort as cruel and unforgiving as Maegor ever was. My own head will be the first cut off, I do not doubt, but your queen, my daughter, will soon follow.[4] -Otto Hightower to the small council of Viserys I Targaryen The whore on Dragonstone is not the threat. No more than Rowan and these traitors in the Reach. The danger is my uncle. Once Daemon is dead, all these fools flying our sister's banners will run back to their castles and trouble us no more.[9] -Aemond Targaryen to Criston Cole Prince Daemon, a rogue if there ever was one.[5] -George R. R. Martin Over the centuries, House Targaryen has produced both great men and monsters. Prince Daemon was both. In his day there was not a man so admired, so beloved, and so reviled in all Westeros. He was made of light and darkness in equal parts. To some he was a hero, to others the blackest of villains.[2] -writings of Gyldayn
I definitely feel like Daemon wanted to be hand, genuinely. He loved Viserys, he coincidentally fathered no children until after Viserys's son was born. He gathered a small army to help Viserys with his claim, he offered his own earned Crown to Viserys. Like... he displays so much evidence that he wanted to be equal with his brother, and rule as brothers. I can't believe Daemon wanted the throne, he didn't want his brother to die.
I also think he ironically wanted to be heir for the same reason. As I said, I don't think he wanted to usurp Viserys because he could have if he wanted to, but he did want to inherit after him. I think that's the main driving force behind the choking scene in the season finale, that even though Viserys only really loved Daemon and Rhaenyra, the knowledge that Viserys chose Rhaenyra over him still infuriated him because he simply wanted to be the most loved by him.
@@HillsAliveYT That's fair. He wanted to be the person Viserys loved and trusted the most I guess. He wanted to be the person Viserys trusted to look after his child, he wanted to be the person Viserys trusted to look after his kingdom. He's a pretty weird guy
This is something I’m glad you brought up because pretty much the entire fandom seems to ignore the fact that one Daemon and Rhaenry relationship is almost 100% a groomed one considering she was 14 when the show started and 15 in the books when their night of adventures happened and he was around 30 or 31 and you can sense the tension between them seconds after the scene starts And to the only reason Rhaenrya was named heir was not just because her dad felt bad that he killed her mom but because everyone wanted to keep Daemon away from the throne until The king could have more children to push him down only for the named heir to marry him negating the whole purpose of her being named heir her you can argue all you want about the biggest mistake she made during the war but ultimately her biggest mistake was marrying Daemon
I 100% blame Viserys for the entire mess. If he wanted his daughter to be Queen, he should NEVER have remarried. If she was just a stopgap to keep Daemon off the throne, he should have formally made Aegon the heir as soon as he was born. When it comes down to it, in my opinion, Team Black has the better claim, but they should have married Jace to Helena as soon as possible. Aegon should have been married to Rhaena, and Baela married to Lucerys to strengthen his claim to house Valyrion. I sympathize with team green, I really do, but in trying to save Westeros from the chaos of Targaryen rule, they became everything they claimed to be trying to prevent. (I’m also biased in that I don’t like Targs to begin with, and thing they should have stayed on dragonstone and minded their own business).
There were a lot of things about Rhaenyra and Daemon's relationship in the show that I really enjoy. Matt Smith portrays Daemon as a laughing facade over a boiling lake of rage and hurt. He doesn't really seem to make long-term plans so much as react to his emotional urges. I think he genuinely wasn't sure whether he was going to kill Rhea until he actually stood in front of her. And when he took Rhaenyra out of the keep that night, it looked like a part of him actually was concerned for his niece and wanted to give her the escape she wanted. Of course he has his ulterior motives, but I think his portrayal is more complex than if he were constantly scheming for power. The other part I really liked was when Rhaenyra finally turned to Daemon as an ally. She seemed to genuinely love him, or at least she was attracted to him. But she was wary of him as well, she wasn't stupid. It was only after the violent confrontation at Laena's funeral that she decided to get rid of Laenor and marry Daemon. She realized then that if she was going to rule, at some point she'd have to forcefully suppress any alternative claims. They were going to rebel against her either way, so she might as well have Daemon on her side.
Ironically if Otto wasn't pushing for Daemon to be disinherited in favour of Rhaenyra and only pushed for Viserys and Alicent to marry, then when Aegon was born he probably would've automatically become heir and Otto could've cleanly gotten everything he wanted.
Theres a good reason why incestuous political dynasties fell out of favor long ago and it wasn't just the grossness of the practice. On paper it make’s a little bit of sense (if you completely exclude morality from the equation) - but in practice, it inevitably dissolves the ruling house - as it did with ancient Egypt and the Spanish Hapsburgs. Proper marriage alliances are about expanding the power of the monarchy and bringing in, not just new blood but new power centers and new dynamism to augment the line instead of trying to prop up a tree without any branches. Kingly incest fell out of favor around the same time human sacrifice did and largely for the same reason - its not a sign of strength but a sign that you have no real solutions to your problems.
Viserys was named king not just because "he was a man" but because he was a Targaryen and Laenor was a VELARYON. They weren't going to just hand off the dynasty to their oldest supporting house.
@@HillsAliveYT During the betrothal negotiation with Corleys Velaryon Viserys adds in a condition that when the heir produced by Rhaenyra and Laenor takes the throne he will do so as a TARGARYEN. So no, he didn't. lol
@@jtthomas7349 Yes I am aware, but Jacaerys is still Jacaerys Velaryon and not Targaryen, and it's not as if Laenor couldn't have changed his name too, so had Laenor won he would have been someone with the Velaryon name who was placed in line for the throne just like Jace was someone with the Velaryon name placed in line to inherit the Iron Throne. But I was just trying to point out something kind of ironic, not start a debate, so it's all good.
Every now and again im happy I get reminded that normal people realise the fact that Daemon is an asshole, cos man if you see his stans on Twitter... you would think the show made Jesus turn out to be Lucifer I had someone argue with me that he didn't Groom Rhaenyra because "it was normal in Westeros" completely ignoring the entire context behind the Brothel scene
I can’t deny the possibility of what this video suggests but I don’t think there is conclusive evidence to support it just yet. I do think that Daemon “grooms” his niece is 100% accurate and really creepy the more you think about it. But his “desire” for the iron throne isn’t black and white. Daemon is a rebellious child he wants whatever people tell him he can’t have. This shown in his inability to “finish” with women, if they are there and willing and too easy he can’t do anything, because it’s not the sex it’s knowing he’s not suppose that gets him off. Daemon would be a bad king, but he also would hate being king, he shows no interest in government or politics, or even Westeros in general. Rhaenyra is his only shot at the Throne once Aegon is born, but his desire for the throne (so far) seems more a metaphor for his brothers respect. My two cents
Episode 10 made this even clearer, with lord bartimos celtigar and Ser lorent marbrand basically becoming his cronies. No queen consort has had that much power ever.
I think it’s telling that Viserys truly never considered Daemon his heir by the fact that he never shared Aegons prophecy with him. For how much Viserys values prophecy, to never inform him just on the off chance set in stone he never considered Daemon to be worthy of it even before naming Rhaenyra heir.
I don't think Daemon has any intention of usurping Rhaenyra's throne. He's not built for that kind of work and dedication. What Daemon enjoys is the proximity to power which is why he wanted so desperately to be Viserys' hand. He wants to be the power behind the throne (which is the more powerful position). I think in the last episode, he is, once again, attempting to be hand that Viserys denied him.
People are saying that if Rhaenyra married Aegon II everything would be fine. And that's true in the short term but you have to remember that Rhaenyra is sixteen years older than Aegon, that isn't exactly good for making heirs.
I do think that you are right when it comes to Daemons intentions in usurping Rhaenyras power in all but name, and there is a scene in the show that suppports this. When Daemon is making the kingsguard swear their oaths anew to Rhaenyra as their queen he also makes them swear to prince Viserys as the heir to the iron throne, even though Rhaenyras oldest son is Jace. Why is this? Well Viserys is the oldest child of Daemon and Rhaenyra, so it does make it pretty clear that he tends to wield power through his eldest son. And this does clearly indicate he wants to take power from Rhaenyra. And consider this, he is making the kingsguard swear an oath to Viserys. Kingsguard who don't wield any particular power and are mostly bodyguards to the king. Their main use is their capacity for violence, so that makes it pretty clear how Daemon intends to use them. Should Jace ever ascend to the throne he better look out for these two, less he suffer a particularly violent end. He can't use the kingsguard to remove Rhaenyra, nor am I sure he would want to. But I do think he absolutely has intentions to outlive her.
I like this channel, it had really interesting takes. There's something I believe was overlooked in the matter of Daemon's behavior last episode. I believe that they were paralleling Daemon's actions to Otto's (just like they did with Nyra's and Alicent's). I'll explain myself. In ep. 9 Otto believed that they needed to kill Rhaneyra and all "her people" to secure the greens' interests; I think Daemon also understands this. Is not just that he was trying to usurp Rhaenyra's power, but he understands that the only way for Aegon's rule to be safe is to kill Rhaenyra and all her opportunities to the throne (which directly implies her sons). Maybe that's what he would do if he was on the usurper side. So, while Rhaneyra is giving birth, he's taking cards on the matter and preparing for war (because it's inevitable), and yes I believe that he thinks he knows what's best and if he was in charge things would be better, in contraposition to Rhaenyra who is acting "week". So, even though there's probably always going to be a part of him who yearns for the power of the iron throne, this is a case of survival, nothing else. I'll give another example, when they were at the bridge discussing with Otto and he tried to kill him, the moment Rhaneyra said "no", he could've ignored her and done it, but he withdraw. So, yes, these characters are way too complex jaja maybe he wants the throne, but he also fears for his life and the lives of the people he loves, but he's also impulsive, etc. etc. etc.
It seems that most of the fandom isn't mentally mature enough to watch this show, otherwise Daemon wouldn't have a "cult" around him, this fandom really needs more people like you
I'm told that in Fire n Blood the smaller lords massively protested Rhaenyra being heir because a female being heir in the royal family would mean they're own daughters could start ruling and they didn't know how bad Daemon could be.
Yes, that was also a big problem. I think Viserys also never truly established new rules for the noble houses and how they are supposed to handle succession after he named her heir. 🤔
You should do a video on the parallels between Daemon and Maegor the Cruel. Maegor to me seems like the man Daemon wanted to be. He achieved almost every goal Daemon had.
it's funny that the daemon haters are twisting the book just to say they hate daemon 💀 guys, you don't need to pretend you don't understand the source material just to say you don't like daemon. it's ok to dislike daemon without equating him with the targaryen hitler who wanted to annihilate all the devout worshippers of the seven and actually killed innocent bystanders just so he can have the street cred of having killed some of the faith militants.
@@TheKenganKing LOL daemon never did what maegor did in his reign. it's pure projection on the daemon haters' part that daemon would have campaigned to exterminate people. enemies at war, for sure he will try to kill as many as he can, but to go out and commit genocide for the sake of genocide is not daemon. daemon is a different kind of dark person.
@@maggyfrog Maegor didn't commit genocide for the sake of it. He killed people who forsake him or rebelled. You clearly don't understand Maegor's character.
Also daemon would have been an awful ruler. He has no interest in sitting on a throne and doing all the diplomatic work. He just wants power. Viserys and Otto saw that part and that's why rhaneyra was made heir. How are his fans forgetting it?? Everyone around him knew he would be a bad ruler. Aegon's and rhaneyra's marriage would have stopped everything. This way rhaneyra's would still have the throne, the green side would have their power and Daemon would be far away from the line. Viserys was an idiot to refuse to this proposal. Alicent tried to stop this by proposing this match. Team Black fans just aren't ready for that conversation.
I don't think Daemon would usurp her. He's not that power-hungry. I think he wants action more than anything, he's impatient and gets bored. He's aware of the boring side of being a king, like listening to petitions and discussing tax policy. Even in his power-seeking behaviour, he wants the thrill of chasing it, not power in and of itself. Consider what he does with the Stepstones, he becomes King there and then... gets bored and gives up the crown. A truly power-hungry person would never give that up.
Jaehaerys had to name Baelon cuz he knew that if he followed the ACTUAL law, ppl would make more noise abt how he himself took the throne from someone else...
While I had always pointed out how the succession crisis was a group effort, I hadn't given as much weight to Daemon's actions as I should have. I don't like Daemon but I like him as a character if that makes sense. To me, while there are definitely feelings, Daemyra's marriage is for political reasons. Do you think Daemon would've been as active in the war if he hadn't been able to marry Rhaenyra?
I think he probably would have been pretty involved, because ultimately he's never going to have a superior claim to Viserys' sons and the Hightowers will never fuck with him so Rhaenyra was his only shot at power either way. Plus he at the very least likes Rhaenyra while he doesn't seem to even acknowledge the Hightower Targaryens.
I had a stray thought the other day; how long would Rhaenyra's sons by Laenor (Harwin) have lived - even without the civil war - when Daemon has now successfully had sons, of his *true* blood? It seems as though he likes the boys well enough as people (as seen by how he takes Jace in hand, as Rhaenyra's heir- & will later avenge Luke's death), & with **external** enemies to focus on- he's relatively protective of them - however, the idea that his legitimate sons are _behind_ those that people whisper are bastards, would *have* to grate eventually. It kind of makes me think a little of someone like Cersei, who imo does not love her children for their own sake, but as extensions of herself - while Daemon's sons are small, having the older boys could be useful (especially if they had **children** by their cousins, his own daughters- making them his sons-in-law, as well as stepsons/ great-nephews - who *would* be undeniably part-Targaryen, by three points; Rhaenyra, Daemon, & Rhaenys- & Velaryrion by two; Laena & Corlys)- but as they grow, it could get interesting... How long would the three of them have survived Daemon's ambitions for his own sons to succeed him & Rhaenyra, if they hadn't died in the war...?
Everyone being hypocritical dogging Christen Cole and yet Fan girling over Deamon like he’s not asshole either lol. I like Deamon lol I like Cole too tho lol that’s just me tho lol 😂
About halfway through the series I just started respecting him for how much of a menace he was. In every scene he is he's always so smug or at least self confident
I never get how people can love or cheer for characters like Daemon or Ramsay Bolton. I find them disguting. And whil I am aware they are not the only fault, since their history and the way they were treated by others lead to this kind if behavior, this is where I draw the line. Daemon was litterally presented sitting on the iron throne, in shadows. And we're meant to believe he's a good guy ? I would love to know more about his personal history, to understand him even better.
The way I see it is at a certain point a character becomes so insane you just kind of forget that what they did is bad. It's like when the whole planet is in danger from being blown up you don't care as much about the stakes because you know the author won't destroy the planet and you can't really imagine a planet blowing up. However people are a lot more invested when someone loses a treasured childhood memento. Like, in Episode 1 Daemon butchers people on mass in the city, that's a outlandish scenario to most people so rather than empathizing with the people in the city they enjoy Daemon making fun of Otto. However, in Episode 10, when we see Daemon choke Rhaenyra that's a more grounded event that happens to a character we care about so the fanbase is able to see more clearly that it was a bad thing Daemon did.
Bruh so if Jacerys was legitimate he'd actually be the most senior heir of Jaehaerys I not through Rhaenyra but through Laenor. I think the main reason why Laenor was skipped over was that he was a kid. Medieval times didn't like child rulers. The Velaryon claim is the Black's best claim over the Greens honestly. Rhaenys, Baela, and Rhaena should be the true heirs even by Westerosi rules unlike Rhaenyra so they are all worse victims of sexism than her. Daemon is the villain of this story. Everything he does can be interpreted as a move to get closer to the crown (Killing his wife, the Stepstones war, marrying a Velaryon claimant, grooming Rhaenyra, getting 4 of his children in the line of succession before him, killing Green claimants etc). That's probably also why he insisted more than anyone else for fighting the dance. It will be interesting to see how his personal ambition plays into the Black's seizing power in the show. It was already clear on the show that he's the only character that was never going to accept Aegon's usurpation and coronation. I could see how his presence alone would draw people away from the Rhaenyra and the Blacks.
LOL well yes in a sense, ironically if Rhaenyra's older sons were legitimate then they would have combined the claims of Laenor and Viserys in a sense. And I think there were a few reasons why Laenor lost. I think it was because he was a kid, because he was a Targaryen through his mother's bloodline, and because the Targaryen dynasty could have potentially shifted to the Velaryon dynasty. And yes, it's ironic that people root for the Blacks in the name of female empowerment when Rhaenyra is essentially attempting to usurp Baela and Rhaena's true claims in favor of her children who are not even Velaryons. And yes, while plenty of people contribute to the mess that this situation becomes, Daemon's shenanigans are an inciting factor to a lot of the fuckery.
Again, every time, the Targs are their own worst enemies. Great video! Side question, HotD seems to be holding the narrative that Jon is the Prince the was promised. Do you agree book wise that this is the case? I know some say it’s Dany. You might have already addressed this and I forgot.
Finally! A video we can agree upon. Yes I watch almost all your videos even if I don’t agree with your take most of the time. You have a very nice way of expressing yourself. I’m glad this was the exception. Cheers!
I think it is funny that Daemon might have been able to go a much further way in life just by doing nothing and being chill. If he just relaxed and caused no controversy, the realm would be totally comfortable with this adult, dragon riding and capable backup heir.
True. After Otto he could have been hand the way he wanted. And he could have his marriage anulled, because it was not consumated. Which Viserys would probably do if he would have been more chill. And then marry Rhaenyra. And he'd still be heir. He is his own worst enemy 😅 Maybe Viserys wouldn't have married again and just let Daemon have Rhaenyra 🤔
@@danika9411 Completely agree, this is one of the examples where doing nothing allows you to gain everything, in fact, there might even be political pressure in his favour (i.e. annul marriage and marry Rhaenrya so realm could be stable etc. etc.), so it's all so ironic.
Didn’t Viserys tell his councilmen (while Daemon was eavesdropping) that Daemon doesn’t want the throne, cause he lacks the patience for it? Daemon also really wanted to be his bro’s Hand, he made quite the fuss about it in Ep. one. He also told Viserys he wants to restore their house back to its proper state. Daemon also told Laena that it was refreshing not having to deal with politics and squabbling (if they took the Pentos job offered to them). In all, I think Daemon would much rather be Queen Rhaenyra’s Hand, and he probably assumed she wasn’t properly trained by Viserys to jump into the role as ruler of 7 kingdoms. Right before Viserys died, she’s sitting on his bed, crying and carrying on about having to deal with burden as the heir. I think Daemon knew she wasn’t prepared to handle the stresses of the job, but he knew he could hit the ground running when the time came. This is why I think Daemon was expecting to work in a similar role as Tywin Lannister did.
Viserys's counsel are worried that Deamon will be the second Meagor if he become a king, but there is positive side of that which is that Demon as king will be feared by everyone so no one will dare to start some thing
So Daemon's desire for the throne is tricky. I genuinely believe Daemon doesn't really care if he sits on the throne or not. But because he's a Targaryen supremacist so he believes that whoever sits on the throne should also be that. That's why he hated Viserys' reign because he kowtows to the aristocracy rather than affirming Targaryen strength.
She only became heir because Otto and everyone else wanted hot tempered, act first think later, casually commits violence, insults and murders as he pleases, killed and abused his first wife, arrogant, entitled, believes in Targaryen Valyrian supremacy and fuck everyone else, Daemon Targaryen far far away from it! The Greens don’t fear Rhaenyra they fear Daemon whispering in her ear. Aegon is terrible in the show but at least he has less violent and unpredictable voices whispering in his ear with experience running a kingdom like Otto, Alicent, Criston, etc. We see during the Brothel incident just how much influence Daemon has on Rhaenyra. He’s a groomer. Martin had written that he’s interested in the look and innocence of a child. As much as I hate analyzing this show from a modern moral perspective, he no doubt preyed and groomed Rhaenyra. He does love his family deep down. But he loves power more and thrives in war and chaos. And although he likes her elder three boys his stepsons. No doubt he would not be satisfied with his daughters being their consorts. He’d find his son superior on the basis on legitimacy and having two Valyrian parents. It’s obvious from interactions he has little true affection for this step kids as they do not have much love for him. We’d have a Dance of dragons with or without green rebellion. His sons or their descendants would press their claim. He loves power. Why were black stans shocked he domestic violence choked a Rhaenyra? He wants war!
The show makes Daemon more evil than he actually was in the books while making Rhaenyra seem more innocent. Rhaenyra is a very vile and ruthless woman herself but the show writers want to make her the hero. The Dance of the Dragon was supposed to be a gray morality type of struggle or st the very least evil vs evil. No side was more altruistic than the other. The end result of this war left everyone screwed.
Given that 90% of the internet is team black, this channel is really a much needed and refreshing contribution to balance things out. You bring up a lot of good points and perspectives that are completely drowned out by the Daemyra hivemind even though you back them up with plenty of evidence in both book and show. Some people really think Daemon is some kind of feminist ally and model husband and stepdaddy. Best example was how many people were seriously shocked that Daemon would choke Rhaenyra due to her hesitation to go to war, even though it is 100% in character for him to do so given his pride, ambition, contempt for weakness and inclination to violence to solve his problems.
I mean, Aegon is also right in the sense that as long as he did not peruse the throne he was no threat to Rhaenyra. Rhaneyra has five sons and as such his claim to the throne has now shifted to 7th in line, and if Jace has a son, then he shifts even further down the totem poll. That and Aegon also recognized he'd make a bad king (which for the short time he was... he was correct). He was pushed into something he never wanted by his Grandfather, Mother and Aemond. His own father Viserys also seemed to recognize this as despite being his true born son he never named him heir and never taught him how to rule (and considering how dangerous pregnancies are in Westeros there was no guarantee Rhaenyra was going to survive her six pregnancies).
It is clear based on how Jacaerys trains in martial combat, histories and politics that he was who Viserys envisioned to inherit the throne if Rhaenyra died. And based on the alliances Jacearys negotiated and how he earned Cregan Stark's respect and brotherhood he was the key reason Rhaenyra even won the war.
The Dance was equally the fault of Viserys, Daemon, Rhaenyra, Otto and Alicent. I will exclude Aemond from as much fault as while he was responsible for Luc's death it was clear the entire situation would had been avoided if those five had sorted out their shit beforehand.
Same. I already know how the Dance Ends but irregardless, Team Green all the way
@@Wexter0083
Even so, if Viserys looked to the Male Primogeniture that got him on the Throne in the first place, maybe this wouldn't have happened.
@@thalmoragent9344 Or if Viserys took a moment and changed to the laws proper then it would had not been a problem. I mean I don't think Viserys is stupid as despite Rhaenyra's follies, Aegon and Aemond are clearly poor choices for king. One is a serial rapist, supports underground child fighting and in general about as bad as Deamon. The other idolized Daemon and becomes a kinslayer (and if the rumors are to be believed an incautious adulterer with his sister Helaena and possibly the actual father of Aegon's kids). So, if Otto truly thought Daemon would be a bad king he certainly grandfathered two mini Daemons in waiting.
For all respects the Strong bastards would had been good rulers. They were humble, worked hard and seemed to hold a sense of honor. It could be because they grew up as bastards and were looked down upon so they worked extra hard to earn their titles (they seem similar to Jon Snow in that respect). Or it could just be that Rhaenyra as a better mother than Alicent. It is really just hard to say.
@@Wexter0083
Yeah Aegon would definitely be a poor ruler, and at least he admitted that. Aemond's kinslaying in this case would've been accidental, although originally yeah he'd have been worse if it was book version.
That said, had Aegon grown without his eye being taken as a kid then who knows, he may have been a good king. If what he says about studying philosophy and history, practicing with the sword is all true (and I don't think he was just bluffing) then he probably would've made a good king.
The Strong kids may have been bood rulers, true. Better than Aegon and Aemond (in his current state), but nevertheless, as Vaemond Velaryon boldly said, not true inheritors of either Dynasty. They would have ruled Harrenhall and it's lands rather well though, as Lords of House Strong.
Rhaenyra was named heir just to keep Daemon away from the throne.
Also Rhaenyra: Marry Daemon
Rhaenyra lost the war when she married Daemon. Ironically, she did it thinking it would make her claim stronger, but that's what made her lose the war before it even started.
She was not going to want to marry Aegon even before he was married to their sister Heleana. She was both his older sister and she was his teenage mothers age in HotD. Aemond is Aegon's younger brother so marrying him wouldn't help (and might be even worse). in fire and blood she has another brother Daeron but he's younger then Aemond. Many of the avilible men around her would be either too old or too young and not dragon riders. At least she geniuenly wanted Daemon and Daemon did somewhat love her. As he does have a claim as does she and Laenor was depicted as useless to her. So faking his death and marrying Daemon would make sense to him.
@@spiritofarkham1235 We will see Daeron in season 2 most likely. He is in the intro sequence as a cup, since he is a cupbearer for someone
She was going to have her throne stolen either way. Daemon may have been reckless and as the snake Otto said "without limit", he had many friends. He helped Corlys win the war in the Step Stones (by going in a suicide mission I know), and had more friends than enemies. He wasn't politically crippling Rhaenyra, that were just Otto's words, he was helping her actually. He tried at least.
@@anagirbau3301Everything is honestly Viserys’ fault. Period. Viserys should have pulled a Jahaerys and changed the rules of succession and then cited Targaryen exceptionalism so no one could challenge it. That, or take the issue to the great council. Either way, Viserys should have made some sort of political decision to shut the lords of the realm up and quell dissent and division within his family. Also he should have been more involved in Rhaenyras marriage. We see him spending most of his time eating or sitting in like a child while otto effectively rules for him. he could have spared some time to be the one touring with her and if anything Alicent could have come too to stop her yapping, and attempt some reconnection between the two on a months long journey. Then, no matter Viserys’ choice, he should have taught his heir to actually rule. Rhaenyra’s political incompetence is painful to watch at best. She calls on all of these lords like they are her banner men when in reality they do not know her, they do not like her, they do not want her. three main things you need to inspire someone into action for you. she should have spent the majority of her life making friends and alliances with strong houses.. at least a few. this way she wouldn’t be reaching her and finding it so difficult to forge alliances or even protect herself besides her dragons.. the only reason Aegons faction is so politically savvy is because they have Otto and what’s left of the council but Aegon was left to rot as far as being raised to rule as well. Even if he wasn’t being prepared to rule they ALL should have received formal political and tactical training as they are all princes and princesses and are ALL in line for the throne. Viserys also should have pushed for Targaryen strength; the most important thing is that our house remains strong, no matter who sits the throne, we are one house, we are one family, we are one power. outsiders hoping to rise in the ranks through treachery will be dealt with, those loyal to us will be rewarded. but we must neverrr turn on each other. if Margot’s rule taught us anything it should be that infighting is the only thing capable of destroying our house and Aegon Targaryen did not conquer westeros.. giving us the kingdoms we have now, to see his dynasty destroyed by its own imbecilic members.. so to me, no matter how you slice it, Viserys’ inaction as King caused the dance. He allowed outsiders to be wayy too close to the throne, and crows to come feast on his, and his houses bones.
@@anagirbau3301tldr: just like in real life everyyything is about appearances, politics, and the law. we say some words are rules we must al follow and it works for many psychological and social reasons but that was all Viserys needed to do here. Invoke his absolute power that he is greater than the Lords and if he tells the lords this is the new normal and puts it into law there’s nothing to be done. Except revolt, like the militant, if they do that it would have given him the excuse to use them as an example in a show of strength.. lots of XXL rice krispies.. and boom problem solved.
I have a feeling that the audience treats Daemon the same way as they treat Tywin Lannister. Both characters did horrible things all the time but the fanbase fall in love with them and see them as inspiring because of the charismatic actors who play them.
These characters also have that element of "strongman". The "tell it like it is" guys with straight forward (Tywin) or no (Daemon) politcs. Writing isn't perfect but it has shown how Daemon is more black than grey and yet, him choking Rhaeneyra wasn't as serious as Alicent going after her .
@@komal146 Yeah, and I find it very concerning about how many youtubers made video essays about how to be like Tywin (such as Charisma in Command) as if he is this inspirational hero even though in the universe, he is an equivalent of Hitler.
@@nont18411 lmao that guy's such a hack. Uses pseudo science to rope in insecure people with the promise of giving them power(you know instead of actually repairing self esteem). And Tywin or characters like him seem powerful and on the top of the world. They miss how short tempered, short sighted, emotional and illogical they can be and they all ignore the miserable parts of a character to sell the image.
I'll be honest and say I absolutely love Tywin Lannister as he is easily in my top five. I love him because I understand him. I can't look at Tywin through a modern lens. He's cruel, calculating and relentless towards any who opposes him and his house. Is he a good person? Of course not, but he owns it.
I think Olenna said it best, she didn't like him but she respected him. Tywin would never be loved, nor did he care to be, but he demanded a modicum respect even at his cruelest.
Couldn't have said it better myself
Additional Point:
1. With Jaecerys and Baela's engagement, Daemon would be extremely motivated to make sure his daughter would become Queen. That would mean killing anyone who threatened Jace's succession.
2. Aegon and Aemond have proven themselves absolutely unable to keep their mouths shut about Jace's illegitimacy.
3. Daemon would already kill those two for a Klondike bar.
Food for thought.
Yeah I would tend to mostly agree, but I'm quite suss that Daemon would have ever actually allowed his daughters to marry the Strong boys, he doesn't appear to have much personal attachment to them and I cannot fathom a world where he would let bastards inherit over his own trueborn sons.
@@HillsAliveYT Maybe Daemon doesn't care? He did tell Rhaenyra that she could do what she wanted even when she was married. And besides which, they are indisputably Rhae's kids. Daemon's grandkids would be mostly Valyrian either way, if not necessarily Velaryon. Talk about bad luck tho, eh? What are the odds Jace, Luke, and Joff all look like Harwin while Alicent's kids all look like Viserys?
ahh hah, "klondike bar", "food for thought", I see what you did there ;)
on paper daemon wins either way. Either his daughters becomes queen with Jace or Luke's succession or Aegon/viserys 2 become king.
@@alexanderdavis3755 I think that she was talking about the fact that the illegitimate boys would be ahead of his two sons, since he doesn't seem very atached to his daughters the fact that they would be consorts wouldn't motivate him at all, well it probably would if there wasn't the fact that his two sons would be the next in line if the strong boys died suddenly.
It doesn't matter to Daemon if Rhaenyra's kids are her kids or not, if they are legitimate or not, they are not his kids, the fact that they are bastards that don't look like Targaryens is just the icing on the cake.
Also, just because Daemon said something to Rhaenyra doesn't mean that he was talking exactly what he thought and even if it is exactly how he sees the world, that doesn't matter because the question is not about what Rhaenyra can or can't do, but a matter of putting his sons in the throne. I must point out that I can't see Daemon taking lightly if he ever knew that Rhaenyra wasn't faithful to him or even worse if he knew that one of the babies he thought to be his were from someone else.
DARN IT MATT SMITH! STOP USING YOUR FANTASTIC ACTING TO DISTRACT FROM THE REALITY OF DAEMON!
LOL his "oops well this is awkward" look when Alicent says a prayer for Vaemond at dinner was Emmy nom-worthy alone.
From the very beginning he did extremely well convey the predatory cunning nature of DT thanks to his amazing acting. How great he looked in armor was another super distracting thing to me hehe
funny! v. good!
Daemon killing his first wife, cutting people he considered as “criminals” into pieces, killing an innocent man to cover up Laenor’s escape, treating his second wife like trash that she chose to commit suicide during childbirth complication.
Fans: “So hot. Truly an internet boyfriend.”
Daemon choking Rhaenyra.
Fans: “What? So Daemon is evil all along.”
And...?
at which point does Daemon treat Laena badly?
@@franciscomelendeze You can see during their interactions he was extremely distant and cold towards her. Much like he is towards his daughters
@@drishyamanoharan2082 And why so surprised that he choked Rhaenyra?
@@nont18411 it isn't, but his fans are mad at him because of that.
His relationship with Rhaenyra is one of if not the biggest influence on her growing up and his grooming clearly had a massive effect on her, and the biggest aspect was him making her believe they are superior to other people, and they can do whatever they want, which led to so many of the conflicts that caused the war. It's clear him bringing her to a brothel caused her to sleep with Criston without considering what that could do to someone who's life is put at risk by it, and then she feels okay passing off her children as legitimate and has no problem with people being punished for not going along with her lie because she believes she is entitled to whatever she wants as it's the mindset that Daemon instilled in her. The show did a great job at building Rheanyra up to do horrible things simply because she believes she is superior to others, and also have a legitimate reason to be this way. The end of the season seemed to show that losing her son is going to cause her to lose the part of her father that was left in her that had her considering not pursuing war, and now she will embrace the side of her that Daemon wanted, so it will be very interesting to see how Daemon reacts if she takes some of the control he imagined he'd get, and if it causes more conflict within the blacks.
Yeah it's interesting how easily you can see Daemon and Viserys reflected in Rhaenyra's worst choices. A lot of her bad behavior stems from Daemon's philosophy of Targaryen superiority, and a lot of her failure to actually handle her problems stems from Viserys' philosophy of "it's this way because I say so and no I will not elaborate".
@@HillsAliveYT I feel like Rhaenyra will become very upfront in Blood and Cheese debacle next season.
I guess Otto serving his daughter up on a plate to an old ass man whose wife just died is okay
@@crossiant9472 no that was obviously disgusting, but everyone in the show is pretty awful to some extent, it just wasn't relevant to talking about Daemon and Rhaenyra's relationship. Saying one thing is bad doesn't mean another is okay. It's one of the great parts of the show, what Otto and Daemon have done has been pretty disgusting but it's clearly benefited them in some ways, but it could also ruin them in the future.
The show really wants their romance to be hot and steamy “I can’t have you but I WANT you” thing so they added the “you were a child” line when Rhaenyra asks why he didn’t marry her. Personally it felt like they were retrograding the existing relationship. HE snuck her out HE brought her to a brothel HE started physically “seducing” her, and left her. The “she’s just a child” thought must have come in… when when?? RIGHT before he was about to have sex with her??
There's a lot of parallels between Daemon and Otto. When Otto says about Daemon that "the gods have yet to make a man who lacks the patience for absolute power," a lot of people have pointed out that this line ironically applies to Otto as well, which is true. But when Daemon later says in that same episode that Otto is a "second son who stands to inherit nothing he doesn't seize for himself," this line, also, ironically applies to Daemon. Otto and Daemon are both ambitious second sons overshadowed by their brothers. Otto seems to be, at least in part, driven by pressure from his brother Hobert. Daemon is desperate to prove himself, not just to his brother, but to the whole realm, which is why he gets so upset when his brother offers to help him, be it in the Stepstones or when he invites him back to King's Landing from Pentos. Otto and Daemon both conform to their cultures' norms and expectations: Daemon is the spitting image of a hot-blooded Valyrian dragonlord thirsty for blood and conquest, and Otto works mercilessly to better position his house in the Westerosi social hierarchy, as is expected of him. Otto and Daemon both have Iron Throne ambition: Otto for pushing Alicent and Aegon, Daemon for marrying Rhaenyra. Otto and Daemon are also the two biggest characters pushing their respective Queens for violence: Alicent and Rhaenyra both want peace, but Otto wants Rhaenyra and her family and allies killed to prevent a war of succession, while Daemon wants to wage war against the Hightowers to kill Otto and the greens for treason.
A lot of fans have rightfully called out Otto, but tend to overlook the role Daemon played in starting this war, too. They're both major factors. I'm not defending Otto, but a lot of fans have pinned their blame for this war solely on him, which is just silly. Frankly, I don't think you can really pin the blame on any one or two people, it's definitely a lot more complex than that, driven by structural forces in Westerosi society, but if you're going to put it on anybody, it has to be Otto and Daemon both, really.
Here is the question. If you erase Daemon's marriage to Rhaenyra does Otto still attempt to usurp Rhaenyra? Does the Sea Snake decide to fight to maintain her claim and his grandson's claim to the throne? Because I would argue Otto is usurping Rhaenyra no matter what. Even if her kids weren't bastards. Even of Laenore never left. There was no world in which Otto wasn't going to try to put Aegon on the Iron Throne instead of Rhaenyra. So no, Daemon is not the cause of the war, it would have started even if Daemon was dead in a ditch somewhere.
@@karenholmes6565 The world where Otto not only doesn't object to Rhaenyra being Queen but would support it with all his might. Is the one he asked Viserys to make on Aegons second nameday. Had Viserys wed Rhaenyra to Aegon none of this shit would've happened and thousands of people wouldn't have died horrible brutal and incredibly painful deaths.
@@karenholmes6565 The whole reason Rhaenyra was named heir in the first place was because of how violent and unpredictable Daemon is. Otherwise, Daemon would have remained the uncontested heir. Up until Aegon was born. But then Otto wouldn't be usurping anybody, because Aegon would then be the uncontested heir, since sons come before uncles. Remember: the show makes it clear that Daemon was the heir before Rhaenyra. This whole chain of events starts when Viserys disinherits Daemon to make Rhaenyra his heir. While Otto certainly pushed for that, it wasn't because of his own selfish ambition at this point, Alicent wasn't even married to Viserys yet. It was because Daemon presented a clear threat to the hard-fought peaceful stability of the realm, which is the Hand's duty to protect. Otto definitely has lots of culpability, but it all started with Daemon.
This reminds me of a saying in my country which roughly goes: "Two are needed to dance." It is usually used to point out how no fight is only one person's fault and honestly I am impressed as to how good it can be used for this series.
@@karenholmes6565 Well, Otto did pitch the idea of marrying Rhaenyra to Aegon. Which, if Viserys had agreed, would have put both Rhaenyra and Aegon on the throne. Therefore no need for Otto to usurp her.
I'd like to list out many of Daemon's deeds just for a clean comparison:
He killed his wife for no good reason, he killed Vaemond even though only a tongue was asked for, stole a Dragon Egg and nearly caused a conflict right there, jokes over Laena's death and had a disconnect from his daughters with her... Also wanted Laenor dead just so he could marry Rhaenyra too.... and banged her on the funeral night of his 2nd wife.
Daemon has proven to be a natural jackass. Like Otto or not, but he's definitely right in not liking the guy for even his own reasons
You forgot how he beat the messenger to death after Viserys told him in a letter to help him about the Stepstones, how he massacred civilians whom he considered to be “criminals” into pieces and how he murdered an innocent man and burned his corpse to cover up Laenor’s escape.
But as usual, according to the showrunners, civilians’ lives don’t matter just like how nobody ever bring up how Rhaenys killed so many civilians but somehow didn’t kill the greens thanks to plot armor.
@@nont18411 wait, I thought the messenger lived?
Well either way, yeah you're right. While perhaps "some" of those people he maimed may have been Criminals, no proper proof outside of hearsay is troubling to day the least
Overall, 100% Daemon's far more dark than he is "Gray". And yeah, why DID Rhaenys kill all those innocent people just to scare the Greens... just to leave later? She told Rhaenyra she "escaped on Meleys" but like, if that's all she wanted to do, why BURST through the Crowd and not, ya know, scare the people out of the way, (maybe roar real at the Greens fine, I get she's not 100% on board with them) then leave with minimal/no casualties?
1. He killed his wife so that he could acquire land as lord of runestone and to free himself up for Rhaenyra 2. Valmont deserved to die, publicly insulting the princess and the heirs is worthy of execution. 3. The whole stole a dragon egg and dragonstone conflict by daemon was obviously a ploy to see Visery's reaction, otto states this too. 4. I don't particularly remember when he joked of laenas death 5. He didn't want Laenor dead, he respected laenor. He worked side by side on the final plan in the steps tones war with Laenor. He just wanted Laenor out of the picture.
@@nont18411 to be fair most of those civilians were criminals and the whole event was to build fear for the gold cloaks and it worked. The innocent guard he killed was so Laenor could live and the whole thing was Rhaenyras plan.
@@nont18411 im sure that Rhaenys killing civillians will be revelant later.
Rhaenyra is put on a girlboss pedestal by fans, but she willingly put the realm at risk for her own desires. She's much like Daenerys in that regard; concerned with more of her own "birthright" than the good of her realm. The whole family is villains, pretty much.
Rhaenyra didn’t put the realm at risk for her own desires. She had kids with Harwin because Laenor was gay which led to complications when it came time to procreate and make heirs. She had to get those heirs from somewhere, so she went with Harwin. Rhaenyra doesn’t really care about her birthright for selfish reasons. She cares because her father entrusted her with knowledge of their true purpose, a knowledge that Aegon II doesn’t have because he’s not the true heir. Rhaenyra also does consider the Hightower’s terms for peace, even after they stole her birthright. That’s something Deanerys would never do . She doesn’t go to war until her son is murdered by them .
The fact that corlys velaryon and rhaenys would agree to rhaenyra sons taking the throne when they always wanted the throne because they had been passed over is unbelievable the show fucked that up
If you haven't figured out that the WMD-riding fascist wizard bloodline are the villains of ASOIAF, you haven't been paying attention. Even a "good" Targ like Rhaegar does destructive shit that ruins Westeros time and again
The fact that him helping Viserys up the stairs is supposed to make him a good brother is just laughable. That’s one good deed compared to decades of screwing up. His poor cousin died screaming and in agony just like her mother(#justicefordaella) and his nephew too, and he JOKES. Imagine if Alicent or Otto did this, they’d be vilified forever.
Not to mention the Rhaenyra business (even Emma D’Arcy stated the relationship could not possibly be considered consensual and okay). I’m genuinely concerned with the amount of people who think this sort of relationship is okay, have we forgotten how disgusting it is? When he choked her I was completely unsurprised, but apparently it was a character assassination because “Rhaenyra’s different! He loves her!!! She’s not like the others ☺😡“ Ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
LOL bless Emma for totally understanding the character they're playing. And I hate the whole "she's special enough to make him not abusive" trope and as much as I don't want to see Rhaenyra abused, I appreciate that they didn't present it as if she was just special enough to make Daemon change. Daemon loves her, but Daemon is an abusive person, so Rhaenyra is not excluded from his abuse just because he loves her (nor is anyone else that he loves including his kids and his brother).
Facts, glad the actors aren't 100% down with the relationship either
The same mechanism with how people love Tywin and consider him as a great person because “He had some quirky banters with Arya.” even though he genocided Reynes and Tarbecks in Castamere, he genocided Targaryens and Martells in King’s Landing and also genocided the Starks and Tullys in Red Wedding. He also treated Tyrion and Tysha horribly. Not to mention how he raised Cersei and Joffrey to become psychopaths but nope, all is well because he was kind to a girl that he didn’t know came from a family he murdered.
@@nont18411 True, but one wrong point, Cersei was the one who raised Joffrey into a psychopath, and was also inbred so that helped in his madness too.
@@HillsAliveYT I find it interesting how, when Daemon is critisised by the actual writers or actors, the fans either rail against them (in the case of Sara Hess) or outright ignore them (Like Emma). But when it comes to Matt Smith they hang on his every word.
The double marriage between Jace/Luke and Baela/Rhaena is also very convenient for Daemon, but also worse Rhaenyra's claim, as he could had promised both of them to powerfull families to help increase her faction's size. It's sad that the show seems to show it as a decision of Rhaenyra and not something Daemon may had talked to her for years at this point. Jace and Luke also seems strangely poorly trained in the arts of battle and war. One would think they would had become skilled warriors under the tutelage of their step-father, given i suppose their training would had fallen under him (Luke especially seems completely ignorant regarding seafaring stuff, by his own admission. Why not training him as such in preparation of taking Driftmark?). I think there is the possibility in case of Rhaenyra's conquest of the throne, that a series of "accidents" could had opened the way for Aegon the Younger or Viserys taking the throne (AND Driftmark, given with the Strong's premature deaths Baela would had become the uncontested owner of the isle) and marrying both Baela and Rhaena, making Daemon's triumph pretty much total.
Yeah I think that's a good point about their training specifically, Jace and Luke actually seem shockingly underprepared for the roles they're meant to play in general but while I don't know that Daemon would necessarily plot their demise, he could be relying on someone else killing them (which is honestly a pretty solid bet) and putting his children from Rhaenyra and Laena on the throne.
I think they're promised to the twins because no one else of true high blood wanted to tie themselves to the Strong boys, and Rhaenyra weaker claim.
Tywin & Daemon: *Sins ignored for good acting*
Aemond, Joffrey & Ramsey: *Sins magnified for good acting*
Remember: Otto would've been fine with Rhaenyra as queen of she married Aegon II. That would've made Otto and his entire family into Rhaenyra's fan club, including Alicent.
Exactly, and for all of Otto's political acumen, Daemon succeeded where Otto failed because Viserys and Rhaenyra actually loved him.
@UCdRWv4qN2MHzrkjZi9qMZtg Imagine marrying your father's cousin to cement a political alliance. Philip II of Spain had to do that to maintain England as an ally.
Yeah but Viserys for all his fault clearly at least saw marrying teenagers to children or 30-year-olds to children as evil. Considering the books it might have been connected to the fact that it probably caused the death of Aemma or simply because he is a normal human being forced into marrying her so young.
Either way, the point is marrying Aegon II with Rhaenyra is a brilliant political move but disgusting and probably ended badly as the two would hate being stuck to each other.
It's really too bad that Aegon is Aegon. I mean, Daemon is Daemon but it's a bit different.
@@duckling3615 So? When you're a monarch, you sacrifice your happiness for the good of the realm.
I've always thought that Rhaenyra marrying Daemon was actually a dumb political choice for her personally. Laenor technically got her the support of the richest family in Westeros and at least 2 more dragons in Laenor and Rhaenys. Now if she still pulled a make Laenor disappear, it would of been smarter to marry someone from a different family, most likely a lord paramount's son or brother as that family would then be more invested. I also thought the betrothal of her sons to Baela and Rhaena wasn't that smart politically but I blame that on her having 3 kids with another man and needing the Velaryons to be appeased to eventually have their blood on the throne. But other than that, if she did have trueborn children then one of the four storm daughters would probably of been a smart choice. Hell, a Hightower daughter might of been a smart choice too as it would of divided House Hightower. But these are just my ramblings.
I mean in a very real sense, he is LITERALLY the worst person that she could have married because her inheritance was largely defined by avoiding Daemon, and on top of that because the Strongs are obvious Strongs she has to arrange betrothals with Velaryons who she should theoretically already have the support of, and even with their betrothals it's obvious that not all of the Velaryons will be on her team. When it comes to strategic marriages Rhae defo gets an F.
@@HillsAliveYT Its morbidly ironic in a sense that both Rhaenyra and Alicent are, for lack of a better term, less than optimal players of the game, while Otto and Daemon excel at it.
@@HillsAliveYT speaking of kids how was Daenerys going to continue the line if she can’t have kids
i disagree with the part that marrying someone else other than daemon if she decided to "let go" of laenor is a better choice for her. no matter how much you hate or like daemon, he is a seasoned dragonrider who has been to a warzone with his dragon. there is not a more compelling military ally other than daemon and caraxes. if she gets daemon and caraxes, she and him can do a shit ton of destruction against entire armies the way aegon and visenya did after rhaenys and meraxes died.
realistically, daemon is a key military player and caraxes is a formidable weapon. honestly, there is no argument against daemon being a dragonlord as one of his actual strengths. you're seriously going to have rhaenyra marry some hightower or any non-valyrian family and try to justify that as "the better" choice against daemon in terms of strategy? that's just plain foolish. this doesn't even have anything to do with her being in love with daemon. daemon is just the most formidable dragon rider currently alive.
@@maggyfrog Uh, Daemon made sense if we are talking about dragons. But if we are talking about politics, then he's the literal worst choice for her. And I never mentioned her marrying a Hightower, I said that marrying her son to a Hightower daughter might of been politically smart but she couldn't do that due to the betrothals to Baela and Rhaena to appease the Velaryons
I think Rhaenyra and Daemon's different reactions to the Green Coup prove that Otto was right. We are endeared to Daemon because of his love for his family, but the rest of the realm doesn't know that and isn't priviledged enough to be part of that family and therefore safe from harm. Keeping Daemon away from the throne is in the best interest of everyone and his immediate jump to war and violence as soon as he hears the news is proof of this (along with you know, everything else). But, it also shows that Otto underestimated Rhaenyra as an actual political ruler. If Otto truly cared about getting Daemon as far away from the line of succession as possible he should have not tried to undermine Rhaenyra as much, and instead looked for other ways to join her claim and the claims of the hightower targs so they Daemon couldn't marry her and tag his claim onto hers. Unfortunately, his family's ambition got in the way because anything less than Aegon on the throne would be seen as a failure by Hobert (presumably).
Some very interesting points, another great video. There are obviously the two sides in this conflict, but they are clearly more nuanced too. I am pro-Rhaenyra, but also anti-Daemon. The green kids aren't the worst (except Aegon) and I can understand Alicent, but I can't get over Otto pushing his own ambitions and agenda to the detriment of the realm. I really hope they make the dragonseeds, especially Hugh Hammer, a sort of "team smallfolk" perspective.
Yeah most definitely, it's interesting how much Daemon and Otto seem to be two sides of the same coin in that as soon as Viserys was dead, they started making moves to counterbalance the moves that they knew they both would make. Otto's major character flaw is ironically being unable to get the people he needs to trust him to actually trust him, even in the instances where his intentions are good or at least valid, as he failed to do that with Viserys and then Rhaenyra.
I'm on #TeamSmallfolk
Hugh Hammer? I still wish there was actually a chance that Henry Cavill would have signed with HotD and been cast as Hugh. I know a lot of people liked the actor that played Ser Harwin, but it bothered me that you could tell he wasn't actually very big, even though he was "the strongest knight in the realm" according to the book. In fact, all the actors that play knights, Criston, Arryk and Erryk, actually have very lean, almost skinny, physiques. Would it kill these actors in a big budget show to workout and eat more for such a role? Seems like the bigger and more mainstream a show is nowadays, the less the actors ,and even producers I suppose, care about physicality. Sorry for the ramble, great thoughts you had tho.
Right! If Otto could have persuaded allicent to marry helaena to jacerys then rhaenrya wouldn't have desperately schemed to get rid of laenor as she would feel much more secure. And I know maybe it's crazy but she could have even given up her claim and let jacaerys rule when viserys died as he was basically of age and being married to halaena Otto wouldn't start a war as his granddaughter is queen and their son would be king and still be part hightower. And Rhaenyra would make a small sacrifice and transfer her claim to her son. Avoiding war in all scenarios really. In a world that isn't designed for out entertainment : p
@@HillsAliveYT You are right they two sides of the same coin. I do believe that in episode 9 when Otto planned to killed Rheanyra and Deamon people people kept saying that he is doing the same thing that he warned Alicent. True, but I have no doubt in my mind that Deamon would think to do the same to Alicents and her kids. He may have loved Viserys but he has no emotional attachment to none his kids except Rheanyra. They have practical view in how this world works but different ways of maneuvering it.
I don't get how most people are so head over hills by Daemon, because he's manipulative, he manipulates Rhaenyra and her children under the disguise of caring and teaching them, and I get so frustrated at Rhaenyra for falling so easily, of course most of it it's because he has spent years grooming her, so she can't notice, but he groomed the audience as well.
Emotionally, the show pushes us to support team Black, they have the best, most loving moments, while the greens have all the ugly, hideous moments, and they want you to think they're hideous, terrible, spiteful people when only Aegon is walking breathing trash. Of course this shifted with Aemond but just because he's Daemon Junior. But if you give it two seconds of objective thinking, the Greens are right.
Okay Rhaenyra is named heir, but her claim obviously gets weakened when Aegon is born, she should've notice that. But instead of looking ways to give her claim power, she has bastard children that are obviously bastards and doesn't get any more political strength besides the Velaryons (as far as the show shows). Then she plays a part in "killing" her husband to marry the man everyone wanted out of the Iron Throne. Like, gurl.
And Viserys defends all of this wrong actions, because is t's his little girl. It was a beautiful moment to see him sit on the Iron Throne one last time, but what was he defending? The claim of a bastard, once again, for the wrongdoings of his daughter. His own son looses an eye and he just slaps the wrist of Luke and sends him to sleep, Aemond had more consequences and he was the victim. And we're gaslighted to think that Alicent did wrong when she attacked Rhaenyra, someone who had never suffered consequences of her actions and she has had to endure those consequences for her. So, what does Rhaenyra learns? Nothing. Her and Luke's actions have no consequences. And that makes her vulnerable to Daemon's manipulation and the right shield for him to do whatever, and hide behind Rhaenyra, because she can protect him from consequences. Or just charms and outwits himself for getting any type of punishment.
The Greens have suffered the consequences of what they do and they say, even Aegon suffers some backlash for his personality and actions. And he married Helaena and has a two male babies and a girl. Between him and the princess that has three bastards and marries the most undesearable Targaryen available, you tell me...
People legit shipped Daemon and Rhaenyra the entire season, ignored every sign the show gave that you're not supposed to think a bloodthirsty, significantly older UNCLE is the best suitor for his neice. People kept saying their chemistry was magnetic, or whatever but it's like... Every scene they're in together, he's subtly shaping her views and opinions to match his own...? He left her pantsless in a brothel! He muuuuurdered his wife!!! Yeah, I firmly believe it's the taboo nature of Daemon and Rhaenyra's relationship that drew people in. What else is there to like? And there's no shame for that, you can ship who you want. But at least be AWARE if and how that ship is toxic, you know?
Thank you. 👏👏👏👏
OMG, Thank you! Nobody remembers that Otto Hightower was the first and strongest advocate to make Rhaenyra the heir. His isn`t ride or die for male primogeniture. He is ride or die for what is overall best for the realm, and what is best for the realm is for Daemon to be nowhere near the Iron Throne. But that whole arithmetic changes once Aegon is born. Look at Otto like he is grasping and greedy if you want, but what he says to Alicent before he leaves King`s Landing isn`t wrong;
"If Rhaenyra follows Viserys upon the Iron Throne, war will follow. The realm will not accept her. And to secure her claim, she will have to put your children to the sword. She`ll have no choice."
And that statement only gets more true as the years progress. That was before Rhaenyra compromised her position by giving birth to three such strong boys. That was before she married Daemon less than a year after the very suspicious death of her husband.
Otto should have worked better and harder then to draw Rhaenyra to his side, could have married her to Aegon and did better to convince Viserys. Or hell, just tell Viserys to not remarry and keep Rhaenyra as heir and actually train her. But he wanted power consolidated to him, he sent Alicent there for a reason. He knew this could lead to conflict and civil war and he still chose the route
it definitely creates a connection as to why there was so much undermining of rheynera. Everyone started believing she would be as pliable as viserys but soon realized she is more like daemon, couple that with her actually marrying daemon means that in everyone else's eyes she's as volatile and cannot have power.
Definitely agree, think it's clear that Daemon is in a lot of ways the centerpiece of this conflict. People so stuck on Daemyra and thinking Daemon is this amazing malewife, they don't see the deeper side of his intentions.
dude, no one is calling daemon a good person. literally the only people complaining about daemon are the only ones implying that he is being seen as a pure hero. i'm yet to encounter a thread about liking daemon and seeing him only as a hero. all threads i've seen about liking daemon is about how he is a crazy mix of both dark and light, and the ones who like daemon even agree that it's in his nature to choke rhaenyra the way he did in the show.
I keep saying that Rhaenyra marrying Daemon was the worst political decision.
Sometimes, I feel like Otto is the only one with common sense. It's obvious that Daemon would be an awful ruler
That may be true, but tbf so would Aegon and Otto still wants that sadistic rapist on the throne. I guess once it's about his family, Otto's common sense flies out the window?
What would Otto know about being a good ruler? He's been hand for how many years and hasn't any knowledge of children fighting rings existing. He has been purging the goldcloaks for years just to remove Daemons influence. Otto only seems to care about his families hold on power and the status quo.
if otto actually cared abt the realm he wouldn’t want his rapist drunken grandson in the throne, but yet here we are. He wants power, he is a good hand and an intelligent man who knows how to do his job. But a lot of his decisions ended up backfiring
@@patrickbarrett4071 Otto knows how other nobles work. And you need their support to run the country, since you cannot rule a nation from dragonback. Daemon's only response to people not bowing down to him is to strike them down. He'd be Maegor 2.0, and I wouldn't be surprised that if they won, Daemon would totally undermine Rhaenyra's hold on the throne and go from king consort to just plain king.
Otto is the perfect Machiavellian ruler you need to rule in that world. It makes him unlikeable, but he's still the GOAT!
I love how the fandom has characterized Otto as the evil schemer who will stop at nothing to achieve power and Daemon as the jerk-with-a-heart-of-gold who's just trying to protect his family and the realm, when the reverse is just as valid an interpretation. Great video, as always.
Attempting to maintain the status quo is a far worse crime than murdering your wife in an attempt to groom your underage niece.
I think the most incredible part of all is that they managed to characterise him in a way he's so loved, and yet the very same fanbase accuses them of trying to villanize him 🤦🏼♂️
I respectfully disagree that the reverse is completely valid. Otto almost never does anything selflessly, yes, he made his daughter the most powerful woman in the seven kingdoms but it was because he was the second most powerful man and after Viserys' weakened state (which may also be a conspiracy of the maesters and Hightowers) he became the most powerful man in all but name, so he and his house were practically in complete power.
Whereas Daemon does several selfless things for his family- he doesn't take Rhaenyra's virginity, he protects Viserys, defends Rhaenyra's and her son's honour by killing Vaemond, and (DEATH SPOILERS for the book/later seasons ahead)
he will die taking revenge for Rhaenyra's son's death, just to name a few examples off the top of my head. Daemon cares but Otto doesn't. He's like Tywin and Roose Bolton in the sense they're obsessed with image and how their house is perceived by others, not so much whether the people of the house are doing well. That's why he fails and Daemon, by extension, doesn't.
@@stars-and-clouds Not taking Rhaenyra's virginity and killing Vaemond are not 'selfless acts'. One would be the absolute baseline for not being a piece of shit, and the other is him igoring common law because he knows he'll get away with it. Killing a lord in court should come with extreme consequence (like many other things he does), but he never faces that.
@@equu497 I mean, he isn't exactly the pinnacle of virtue xD those are great acts for him because he doesn't hesitate from doing such things normally, that's just his baseline. We can't compare him to Ned Stark. As for Vaemond, he had already committed treason, for which the king himself had declared a punishment. Killing Vaemond is selfless bc he doesn't have any beef with him and it's not his children that are losing the seat of Driftmark, it's Rhaenyra's.
I'm not arguing that Daemon is a good guy, but Otto and him are not one and the same and as such not reversible in terms of character and morality. shit
It needs to be noted that in even the most absolute monarchies laws of succession are often considered beyond the king's right to touch, being established by precedent or law( as set by wars, religion, early founding monarchs or immemorial custom). And westeros is anything but an absolute monarchy, with the crown controlling little beyond king's landing, even with dragons.
I have a theory that the reason Viserys refused to budge in his choice of heirs is that he wanted to prove the crown's authority over even the most.timeless of customs, and the decisions of previous monarchs: the right of the crown to not be bound by such things being the most contested in all historical monarchies(and really all states, just look at how sacrosanct parts of the constitution are considered). He chose the worst hill to die on though given the reality on the ground.
Interesting idea; “my word is law, precedent be damned.”
@@alialmuhanna4938 everyone knows the weak willed man who, to prove he's strong, finally makes an insanely bad decision and refuses to budge from it.
Yeah I find the notion that the king can just will the throne to whoever they want to be a really odd idea that comes up almost constantly in discussions about the Dance. Yes, the king is in a position of power over everyone, but throughout the entire WOIAF history it has been established that the king CAN'T just do whatever he likes, and oftentimes that lesson has been imparted in situations much less important than the succession.
@@HillsAliveYT generally speaking changing a law of succession requires both the approval of the monarch and the approval of some analogue of parliament, typically with more than just a simple majority, and even then succession wars are likely(see the lead up to the carlist wars for a good model). The effect is compounded in a highly decentralized monarchy like westeros.
And choosing a daughter when a son is available in a highly patriarchal society like westeros would be about as insane as the king of France trying to establish hellenic paganism as the state religion. Whatever you think of females or hellenism, its just not something you can do without changing all of society from the ground up.
I know very little about real-life medieval history, is this what you're basing it on? Or is that true in Westeros too? I only ask because I remember in GoT, Stannis, a character very devoted to the law (at least nominally), says something along the lines of "the king's word is the law," and that's something that's kind of kept me stumped in the Dance of the Dragons since Viserys was pretty explicit in naming his daughter heir. Was Stannis's statement not in the books, or rather, perhaps should not be taken so literally?
THANK YOU!!! I honestly felt so vindicated on my feelings about Daemon when he choked Rhaenyra. Like you said, I HATED to see that happen to her, but I'm glad they didn't whitewash his character for the fans. But then I got back online and... it's so soul crushing so see that, instead of that moment making fans consider his true character, they're excusing it and making "kinky" memes. Sometimes it seems like everyone else is seeing this show in a completely different way than me, and it's so reassuring to know there are in fact others thinking critically about this. Thank you for another great video!!!
its the crazy Matt Smith fans, expect nothing less from them when it comes to critically thinking about the character he plays
To be fair, Daemon doesn't do this in the book and there is no indication that he has. He is also not responsible for Rhea Royce's death. He did love Laena and his girls.
The show is going out of their way to make him a complete villain unnecessarily. We know he's not a good person but just using actual examples from Fire and Blood would convey that. At the same time they humanize monsters like Aemond.
That amped up.his villainy and love story with Rhaenyra, something that felt like more of a political alliance with love sprinkled in and not some epic romance.
I won't be shocked if they have Daemon carry out the Blood and Cheese act himself.
I don't know. To me it doesn't really feel like Daemon loves anyone unselfishly.
Pursuing Rhaenria seemed more like reclaiming his position in the family.
Even when he was being loyal to Viserys it felt more like he wanted to proof Otto and the others wrong. Or maybe he knew nobody wanted him on the throne.
That man is extremely suspect to me.
Yeah I agree, and while I don't like the scene of Daemon strangling Rhaenyra I thought the show did a good job of demonstrating that love doesn't stop you from being an abusive manipulative jerkoff if you're an abusive manipulative jerkoff. So I think that he does love Rhaenyra, but he loves her selfishly like he does everyone else.
All along while watching I was thinking, Daemon is the one who ruined her life essentially, why is no one talking about this? Good video!
Another slam dunk video, this is far and away my favorite channel for ASOIAF content. It seems other channels tend to throw out critical analysis whenever Rhaenrya and Daemon are involved. Keep up the great work.
Daemon was known for being the Rogue Prince, not because of being a political master who could outwit anyone with his intelligence or wisdom to serve under him, rather he was a literal fire ball that will get everyone attention and will probably set fire to several people and buildings to ashes.
As usual, amazing content.
I get really tired of hearing and seeing the same "team black is perfect, wonderful and so much better than team green" propaganda.
You actually treat both sides fairly and shine an insightful light on their good aspects and also their bad ones equally.
It's such a breath of fresh air tbh I swear, keep up the great work!
If he became king, he'd ruin the realm.
He's far too much like Maegor, arrogant and possessing a enormous superiority streak, with a impossibility to treat non targaryens as equals or even interact with the lords of the realm if they aren't valyrian. He also only wants a valyrian ideally his niece as a wife, meaning his power security would be limited since he would probably have a fit if there were any suggestions of him marrying his sons or daughters to anyone not their sibling or cousin.
He would exterminate Alicent's children to ensure no enemies and cause he hates Alicent and Otto, kinslaying doesn't bother him and he doesn't consider anyone not Rhaenyra, Viserys or Rhaenys as targaryens and family.
Heck knowing him he'd try and invade Dorne and then Essos, beggaring the realm. He loves war and bloodshed, he's not a man of peace, he was miserable in Pentos.
And he might even go so far as to burn Oldtown to the ground which would inflame Westeros and the Seven followers, since he hates Otto. He's also stated he believes it's okay to have multiple wives and Aegon was wrong not to have preserved this right, so that's another blow to him.
The biggest problem is knowing how much he distrusts anyone not targaryen or of valyrian blood, he'd probably attempt to make the kingdoms ruled under by his own family, so replacing the lords paramounts with his children, since he is a superiority person and it would remove all worries of rebellion or disloyalty in his mind.
I've peeped Daemon's plan for a while. That's why I couldn't get down with him from the start. Yes, there's love for his family, but he wants that power. I feel like it was confirmed with him smearing her reputation earlier, and him going too far with physical abuse of Rhaenrya by choking her. He's not hiding it very well and Rhaenrya seems to be blind to it.
My far less nuanced take on what you've described so eloquently - if Daemon wasn't such a fucking loose canon, everyone would've been fine to have him stay the Heir > less pressure on Viserys to scramble and make more sons, maybe Aemma would still be alive. Rhaenyra could've married and birthed as many Strong's as her heart desired, in peace! I didn't really see it before but damn... Daemon kinda ruined everything (/s, but not really)
actually, it was mainly otto who poisoned everyone's mind about daemon. he did this because he knew that daemon can smell that he is a rat in viserys' ears.
@@maggyfrog What the fuck are you talking about?Otto didn't need to poison anybody's mind.Daemon is already a vile deranged pedo and only thing Otto did was tell what he did to Viserys.
@@maggyfrog Otto was the faithful hand since before Viserys even became king. He only started to become treacherous after Allicent had Aegon. And Dameon's hate toward Otto is jealousy as he himself implied in the show that he wanted to be hand in episode 1.
@@davidnwaokolo1905
oh come on. you're supposed to read the book with a grain of salt. he had to appear faithful in order to get his bloodline into the iron throne. you're misunderstanding otto if you think he is a saint. this isn't that kind of story.
@@maggyfrog Going purely off show here. Referring solely to before Aemma even died. Otto, as far as we know from the show, wasn't treacherous until Aegon was born.
I’m so glad I have found your channel! 💚I am tired of the constant fan-girling over Daemon and Rhae. I get tired of fans thinking of this conflict of a sort of Starks Vs Lannisters where there are clear good guys. They are all self-serving, and ruthless people on both sides of the Dance.
I feel in such a minority as someone who overall sympathises more with the Greens. This is even without my favourite character and dragon: Ser Daeron the Daring and Tessarion the Blue Queen.
Keep up the great videos!!! 💚🐉
Exactly, THANK YOU!
They can’t introduce Daeron in the show because it will make the greens look good.
@@nont18411 I thought George or someone said that he is in Oldtown and will appear in S2?
Yep George confirmed daeron will be in season 2
Why do you sympathize with the Greens?
Daemon seems very keen on upholding "pure Valyrian" traditions, which would obviously put him at odds with the Andal Hightowers that worship the Seven.
Well, and that also puts him at odds with nearly the entire population of Westeros. I found it interesting how many people took Alicent's abrupt Seven representation as some sign that she'd become a religious nut rather than her building a much better political foundation by exemplifying that her side of the family was more respectful of and connected to Westerosi tradition, especially when the Faith is based in Oldtown and holds so much sway over the country at large.
@@HillsAliveYT Well, I'm biased towards the Hightowers and Andals as a whiole. Oldtown seems a substantially better place to live than the shithole of King's Landing and massive fire-breathing monstrosities is no basis for government.
Yeah I am similarly biased towards the Hightowers because I just find it fascinating that they have been the greatest power in the greatest city in Westeros since before history was even recorded, and for the most part they're either just chilling or up to some super secret shit that they tell no one about.
@@HillsAliveYT As someone who watches too many period dramas, I'm actually perplexed that people are surprised that a character from a show that's based on medieval European history is... religious? Whoddathunk?
@@HillsAliveYT If by interestjing you mean odd, the show threw in some lines that would make that conclusion obvious. First, her conversation with Cole where she she stops him from calling Rhaenyra names by asserting they should seek the moral road even though she herself had been pretty cruel in disparaging Rhaenyra (and had an oathbreaker and murderer as her sworn shield). Then when the conflict between the children led to Alicent's and Rhaenyra's confrontation, it seemed as if they both acknowledged that her religiousness was a cover for her ambitions and resentments. It makes sense that the audience would see her more overt displays of commitment to the Seven as a way to both repent but also to deepen her guise. She had not up to that point come across as especially politically astute. She was pretty sloppy which is one of the reasons her child was calling his nephews bastards and threatening to kill them.
It's more a problem with the pacing of the show than the audience that they were slow to see her changes as securing alliances with religious leaders than trying to prove her piety to the kingdom. That is a tactic with Otto's name all over it, and it would have been useful to have seen them discussing it.
Yeah, he's a incompetent bureaucrat who feels entitled to the second highest position in the realm and a groomer and abuser and a heartless mass murderer who wages war in the Stepstones out of petty vindictive rage and again in Westeros for power.
But on the other hand it was pretty cool when he murdered that dude and said, "he can keep his tongue" and it was nice of him to help his leprosy ridden brother up some steps.
Gosh, he's just a morally gray scamp.
Seriously I don't understand how George can call him made of equal parts light and darkness, like, nah, that scales tipped towards the darkness side.
A "villain to some and a hero to others" who are those others? And can I please never meet them.
You are my ultimate favorite content creator for the song of ice and fire content, tv shows and etc. You are so smart in the way you analyze things. Incredible!
The thing is, even if Daemon did really love Rhaeneyra, as I think is portrayed as being true to some extent in the show as in he genuinely likes her and respects her strength, and is sexually attracted to her, it’s still 100% irrelevant because he fuckin groomed her to have access to her power by proxy as king consort, and was willing to ruin her reputation to get what he wanted. It’s Daemon. Just because he’s played amazingly by Matt Smith doesn’t mean he’s a good guy😂 Daemon is extremely calculating but he loved his brother enough not to directly usurp him so long as he was above ground.
Do people really think he would want Rhaenyra's 'Strong boys' on the throne instead of his Targaryen sons? Lol
It was interesting that Daemon and Rhaenyra ended up together. It would have been interesting to see what happened if Laenor and Rhaenyra had true born sons together. Maybe I Alicent would have been more onboard with this because it would mean that Rhaenyra had fulfilled her duty to have true born heirs and maybe Alicent would respect that and follow Viserys plan for the throne. I think a big part of this was her seeing Rhaenyra as irresponsible, and disrespectful of rules and was angry that the person breaking the rules was going to face no consequences. I guess that’s the tragedy of it all though all the “what ifs” that could have averted disaster. They aren’t going to make a tv show about Jahery’s peaceful reign they are making one about the the “war of fire and blood”
Well ironically another aspect of the story that a lot of people willfully ignore is that Alicent wasn't denying a marriage between Jace and Helaena just to be an asshole, but because it puts Helaena in a really dangerous situation for a claim that is almost certainly going to be challenged. Essentially, it's a situation that heavily favors Rhaenyra at Helaena's expense, because Helaena becomes a sort of insurance that Alicent and her family have to fight for Rhaenyra's claim when Jace's legitimacy is inevitably challenged. I think she is definitely frustrated by Rhaenyra's rule-breaking, but I think she is even more frustrated that in many situations like this one, Rhae expects other people to bear the brunt of her mistakes. If Rhaenyra's children by Laenor had been legitimate then it at least would have been a more favorable match, even if people challenged Jace's Iron Throne claim, his claim to Driftmark would not be up for debate, but Alicent is likely so pissed about the offered betrothal because it's obvious that Rhaenyra is trying to use Helaena as a bit of a shield, and if it were anyone besides Viserys' willfully ignorant ass hearing it they'd recognize it for the dickery it was.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that, hell Alicent might've forgiven Rhaenyra during the timeskip, since she is taking her duty seriously.
I think it would have prevented a lot if not all of the conflict? If they had trueborn sons there would be no need for Laenor to die/fake his death and for Rhaenyra to marry Daemon and have actual trueborn sons. As was pointed out, people wanted to support Rhaenyra because they didn’t want Daemon on the throne. I think Allicent would’ve aproved for Jace and Heleana’s bethrotal in this scenario, because he wouldn’t be a bastard
Westeros: “ok vizzy here’s what we’ll do. We’ll make an exception to a century of tradition and rules and pledge our loyalty to Rhaenyra bc at least she’s better than daemon and we’ll do whatever it takes to keep him away from the throne”
Viserys: “yes deal”
Rhaenyra: *marries daemon*
Westeros: (╯°-°）╯︵ ┻━┻
I think rhaenyra never knew that she was only named heir to disinherit daemon
Rhaenyra never thought that she was only a use and throw material I guess 🤔
@@Piotr12396 If she couldn’t figure that out, she certainly should not have been at the helm of a kingdom.
@@edoboleyn no I was wrong, Rhaenyra knew very well why she was named heir i watched it again
i don't think rhaenyra realises she was named heir to keep daemon out of power, and that by marrying him, she renders the very point of her claim moot
Daemon may be impulsive and have a cruel disposition at times, but is he really that big of a threat to the realm ? Is he the one who starts a war just to put his psycho grandson on the throne ? Who actively commits treason and goes back on the word of their house ?
Rhaenyra was named heir to spurn Daemon, because Viserys was mad at him. But was it the right decision ? It’s no coincidence that right after, he cut himself on the throne ( the cut that eventually festers and leads to the amputation of his fingers). I like Rhaenyra, and I feel she would’ve made a great queen If it weren’t for the terrible and tragic war known as the dance of the dragons. A conflict which drove her into madness simply because someone can really only handle losing a child so many times before they’re irreplaceably broken (that war was started by the Hightower’s btw).
But maybe Daemon should’ve been king or at least trusted by Viserys more . It’s telling that Viserys never told Daemon about Aegon’s dream and the prophecy, not just because it shows he never fully trusted Daemon, but also because perhaps if he had, Daemon would be very different.
Knowing that the Targaryens had a higher purpose and that they were instrumental in the literal prevention of the future apocalypse, that definitely would’ve changed Daemon. He would’ve understood his brother infinitely more, he would’ve understood the true weight and responsibility of the iron throne and being heir. He wouldn’t be so reckless and violent as he turned out being.
Daemon is the way he is largely because he’s always seeking approval from his big bro, because Viserys means a lot to him. That feeling of rejection is what hurts Daemon, and drives him to cause a lot of the chaos he does, It’s all out of a want to have his brothers attention and approval. Viserys should’ve trusted Daemon more, and I think he realized that later on as a dying man.
When he saw how happy Daemon and Rhaenyra were together and the family they had, not to mention when Daemon helped Viserys onto the very throne that Otto and the other leeches on the council were so sure he was trying to take away and usurp . In the end, the only one truly trying to do that were the Hightower’s .
@@mackmitchell94 i don't see the argument for daemon to be king.
even from a strictly legal standpoint, andal succession goes 'sons before daughters, daughters before uncles'. jaehaerys subverted the law when he passed over rhaenys for baelon/viserys.
under andal law, all of viserys' kids would come before daemon. it's only because of jaehaerys' precedent that this was unclear. if viserys hadn't named rhaenyra heir, his first son with his second wife would be the unambiguous heir.
@@mimiHTcat well right, for Daemon to be king it’d mean Viserys not marrying Alicent and having kids with her .
Rhaenyra realizes the motivations for being named heir. She says as much in episode two when speaking to Alicent in the sept. "He didn't name me as heir. He spurned Daemon".
The writers more-or-less complicate the issue of her pursuing Daemon for marriage. Given the historic element and viewpoint that the book tells the story from, this particular story has already happened. The show just displays to us how or why from the character's viewpoint.
Which makes it extremely questionable from one stand point why she angled for marriage with Daemon. At the expense of her in-laws/ cousins(Velaryons) becoming estranged to them. Which just makes the unification of the two families undone. Basically pissing in Viserys' face two fold.
@@k.w.8332 the reason she married Daemon is because she’s had the hots for him since she was a girl and also because she feels threatened by the greens and having him by her side will add strength and a healthy fear to those thinking to steal her birthright .
well a lot of people criticize Rhaenyra for marrying Daemon(which is fair) because Daemon was extremely hated, by the ppl of the realm,because of how ruthless and chaotic it was. The episode 7 explains on why Rhaenyra chooses Daemon as her consort. After the whole loosing an eye thing with Aemond, rhaenyra pretty much saw that there would be conflict surrounding Alicent’s side of the family and her family, Rhaenyra tells Daemon “lets marry so no one could challenge my throne” pretty much Rhaenyra thinks that if she has as someone as dangerous like Daemon in her side, people will not dare to question her or her children. Also obviously her attachment towards him. Rhaenyra pretty much knows that there is gonna be conflict in the future, Laenor is barely there, and when she doesn’t have her father to defend her, she is pretty much alone. I can understand why it was say it was a bad political move for Rhaenyra to marry Daemon, but also we need to remember Daemon is very intelligent, cunning and overall very skilled warrior, qualities that would be useful to the blacks. episode 10 shows us how dangerous and chaotic Daemon can truly get and how Rhaenyra was trying to keep things peaceful and show restraint, however for war Daemon is a very useful tool
Tbh I have bunch of unpopular opinions about ASOIAF all together. So glad this channel exists to agree with me in every single aspect😂
2:17
The thing is, Laenor’s claim stems from his mother Rhaenys. So in actuality, it’s Rhaenys’s claim that ought to have been put forward, and she should have been queen. Jon Snow tells us in Dance that a daughter comes before a brother in the North, making Alys Karstark heir to Karhold ahead of her uncle. Which explains why the Starks supposed Rhaenys over Viserys in 101 AC.
I mean I certainly agree with you philosophically, but Rhaenys actually did put her own claim forward and was denied because she was a woman, and then put forward Laenor's claim.
@@HillsAliveYT
But that’s the issue; Laenor is only considered because of his mother. If she is dismissed because of her sex, then Laenor is dismissed by default, since if she has no right, why should he ? And I suppose that’s the point; weaken Rhaenys’s position by framing the argument around her son.
@@HillsAliveYT i think rhaenys could have been the queen if daemon and probably viserys werent misogynistic.
like in westros daughters inheriting before uncles is very common and would have been far far more accepting than sisters inheriting before brothers.
but it only didnt happen as daemon have been collecting a army to support his brothers claim over rhaenys
jahaerys was truly a wise one. he saw the conflict coming from a mile away. he knew both factions will fight as rhaenys had support of valryons and daemons side was misogynistic punks who will exert there claim for being male and coming from a male line. and a war was surely to come.
so he let a council decide for him so both sides will be satisfied and loosing side wont call for the war as the matter would be settled they will already know where the allegiance of lords nd ladies lie.
I hated Daemon since ep 1 when he pretty clearly stated "all cops are bastard and I am the biggest and most violent bastard of them all". My hatred solidified when he committed feminicide against his first wife. When he choked Rhaenyra I was expecting it. He is a violent man.
It's kind of sad that Rhaenyra's claim is so undermined by him, since I do believe she would have been the better ruler. Between Aegon the drunk-rapist-with-no-sense-of-duty and Daemon i-take-fire-and-blood-to-the-extreme,
I do believe Rhaenyra would have been the better choice. In the last episodes she shows a lot of growth in her diplomacy and her attempts to avoid or at least delay bloodshed as much as possible.
The title for this video is awesome 😂
Also I love how the show purposely shows similarities between Dany and Daemon, except Daemon is universally agreed to be a potentially crappy ruler, and Dany is praised for being a good queen, for…reasons 🤷🏽♀️
Anyway, with that said, Matt Smith is an incredible Daemon ❤
Lol good queen who killed most of the city population ..
Agree over Matt Smith, think he enjoys playing villainous characters after his stint as the Doctor and plays them well.
Just because we didn’t see her reaction to her son’s permanent disappearance onscreen, the young man Daemon murdered at Driftmark in order to fake Laenor’s death had a mother, too. Virtually every character on Team Black regards common people as disposable NPCs.
This channel is a godsend when it comes to more nuanced analyses of ASOIAF especially regarding Dany and the Blacks
As bad a king as Viserys was he was wise enough to keep his brother away from the throne. He loved Daemon, but he didn't let that love blind him from the truth either. It is also a bit funny and ironic that Otto, who thinks Daemon would be a terrible ruler, doesn't try to join his family with Rhaenyras, ensuring war will follow. It even extends to his grandson Aemond who thinks his older brother is unworthy of the throne, yet on his first(?) mission he lets his emotions get to him and becomes a kinslayer as well as a messenger/envoy slayer, which is hardly something a proper king would do in the eyes of the realm.
It really feels like Rhaenyra is just purposefully shooting herself in the foot sometimes. I want to root for her, but she keeps making so many bad choices.
Hmmm interesting points, but I would disagree from both a book!Daemon and show!Daemon perspective (for different reasons tho, but they’re both about his marriage to Laena Velaryon)
show!Daemon:
In the show, Daemon married Laena and they run away across the narrow sea. But at that point, Daemon is completely done with Westerosi politics. He refuses to go back even though his wife is begging him, he says that he’s done with the politics and succession drama, he doesn’t care anymore. After Laena dies, Viserys offers him a place at court but he refuses and says ‘Pentos is my home’. It’s only after Rhaenerya approaches him, they sleep together and she proposes marriage that he gets brought back into the politics of Westeros.
Yes, Daemon had been scheming to marry Rhaenyra but once she married Laenor and he married Laena he was done with that. I don’t think it’s really right to say his eventual marriage to Rhaenyra was a calculated long game to de facto usurp her power for himself because he had no idea that Laena would die and Rhaenyra would still have feelings for him. He had given up on politics by the time we get to episode 6/7. Rhaenyra was the biggest driving force for their marriage because she said she needed him. She approached him at Laena’s funeral, he had rejected Viserys and wanted to go back to Pentos.
I think show!Daemon cares less about being king than you think. His motivations are way more simple. He wants respect and acknowledgement (and to kill the Hightowers). He would’ve had that as heir. After that’s taken away from him, he goes to win glory at the Stepstones. He then tries to get that respect by marrying Rhaenerya. After that fails, he goes to Essos where being a dragon rider gets him a lot of respect, he doesn’t like Pentos but he likes the attention and having the prince of Pentos offer him lands and glory (+the opportunity to win glory defending Pentos from the triarchy). Then Rhaenyra admits she needs him to be her king consort, that’s another opportunity for the respect and attention he feels he deserves. Then after the DOTD starts, he pushes so hard for war because it’s another opportunity for war glory (and to kill his Hightower rivals). I don’t think Daemon is this schemer who wants the iron throne for himself tbh. His motivations are still bad, he’s a warmonger and a glory/attention seeker, but I don’t think his whole thing was to have power for himself.
Your channel has good content! Pretty original takes too.
Rhaenyra loving Daemon was what made her unpopular in the realm. The commoners hated Daemon because of his cruelty and malice.
*Quotes* *by* *Daemon*
Dark Sister was made for nobler tasks than slaughtering sheep. She has a thirst for blood.[1]
-Daemon to Corlys Velaryon
The war will end when the heads of the traitors are mounted on spikes above the King's Gate, and not before.[9]
-Daemon to Corlys Velaryon
Aemond: You were a fool to come alone.
Daemon: Were I not alone, you would not have come.
Aemond: Yet you are, and here I am. You have lived too long, uncle.
Daemon: On that much we agree.[8]
-Aemond Targaryen and Daemon
*Quotes* *about* *Daemon*
On no account can Prince Daemon be allowed to ascend to the Iron Throne. He would be a second Maegor the Cruel, or worse. Better the Realm's Delight than Lord Flea Bottom.[1]
-Otto Hightower writing to Viserys I Targaryen
Make no mistake, should Rhaenyra ever sit the Iron Throne, it will be Lord Flea Bottom who rules us, a king consort as cruel and unforgiving as Maegor ever was. My own head will be the first cut off, I do not doubt, but your queen, my daughter, will soon follow.[4]
-Otto Hightower to the small council of Viserys I Targaryen
The whore on Dragonstone is not the threat. No more than Rowan and these traitors in the Reach. The danger is my uncle. Once Daemon is dead, all these fools flying our sister's banners will run back to their castles and trouble us no more.[9]
-Aemond Targaryen to Criston Cole
Prince Daemon, a rogue if there ever was one.[5]
-George R. R. Martin
Over the centuries, House Targaryen has produced both great men and monsters. Prince Daemon was both. In his day there was not a man so admired, so beloved, and so reviled in all Westeros. He was made of light and darkness in equal parts. To some he was a hero, to others the blackest of villains.[2]
-writings of Gyldayn
So glad you covered this! Thank you!
I definitely feel like Daemon wanted to be hand, genuinely. He loved Viserys, he coincidentally fathered no children until after Viserys's son was born. He gathered a small army to help Viserys with his claim, he offered his own earned Crown to Viserys. Like... he displays so much evidence that he wanted to be equal with his brother, and rule as brothers. I can't believe Daemon wanted the throne, he didn't want his brother to die.
I also think he ironically wanted to be heir for the same reason. As I said, I don't think he wanted to usurp Viserys because he could have if he wanted to, but he did want to inherit after him. I think that's the main driving force behind the choking scene in the season finale, that even though Viserys only really loved Daemon and Rhaenyra, the knowledge that Viserys chose Rhaenyra over him still infuriated him because he simply wanted to be the most loved by him.
@@HillsAliveYT That's fair. He wanted to be the person Viserys loved and trusted the most I guess. He wanted to be the person Viserys trusted to look after his child, he wanted to be the person Viserys trusted to look after his kingdom. He's a pretty weird guy
This is something I’m glad you brought up because pretty much the entire fandom seems to ignore the fact that one Daemon and Rhaenry relationship is almost 100% a groomed one considering she was 14 when the show started and 15 in the books when their night of adventures happened and he was around 30 or 31 and you can sense the tension between them seconds after the scene starts
And to the only reason Rhaenrya was named heir was not just because her dad felt bad that he killed her mom but because everyone wanted to keep Daemon away from the throne until The king could have more children to push him down only for the named heir to marry him negating the whole purpose of her being named heir her you can argue all you want about the biggest mistake she made during the war but ultimately her biggest mistake was marrying Daemon
I 100% blame Viserys for the entire mess. If he wanted his daughter to be Queen, he should NEVER have remarried. If she was just a stopgap to keep Daemon off the throne, he should have formally made Aegon the heir as soon as he was born.
When it comes down to it, in my opinion, Team Black has the better claim, but they should have married Jace to Helena as soon as possible. Aegon should have been married to Rhaena, and Baela married to Lucerys to strengthen his claim to house Valyrion.
I sympathize with team green, I really do, but in trying to save Westeros from the chaos of Targaryen rule, they became everything they claimed to be trying to prevent.
(I’m also biased in that I don’t like Targs to begin with, and thing they should have stayed on dragonstone and minded their own business).
There were a lot of things about Rhaenyra and Daemon's relationship in the show that I really enjoy. Matt Smith portrays Daemon as a laughing facade over a boiling lake of rage and hurt. He doesn't really seem to make long-term plans so much as react to his emotional urges. I think he genuinely wasn't sure whether he was going to kill Rhea until he actually stood in front of her. And when he took Rhaenyra out of the keep that night, it looked like a part of him actually was concerned for his niece and wanted to give her the escape she wanted. Of course he has his ulterior motives, but I think his portrayal is more complex than if he were constantly scheming for power.
The other part I really liked was when Rhaenyra finally turned to Daemon as an ally. She seemed to genuinely love him, or at least she was attracted to him. But she was wary of him as well, she wasn't stupid. It was only after the violent confrontation at Laena's funeral that she decided to get rid of Laenor and marry Daemon. She realized then that if she was going to rule, at some point she'd have to forcefully suppress any alternative claims. They were going to rebel against her either way, so she might as well have Daemon on her side.
Ironically if Otto wasn't pushing for Daemon to be disinherited in favour of Rhaenyra and only pushed for Viserys and Alicent to marry, then when Aegon was born he probably would've automatically become heir and Otto could've cleanly gotten everything he wanted.
Theres a good reason why incestuous political dynasties fell out of favor long ago and it wasn't just the grossness of the practice. On paper it make’s a little bit of sense (if you completely exclude morality from the equation) - but in practice, it inevitably dissolves the ruling house - as it did with ancient Egypt and the Spanish Hapsburgs. Proper marriage alliances are about expanding the power of the monarchy and bringing in, not just new blood but new power centers and new dynamism to augment the line instead of trying to prop up a tree without any branches. Kingly incest fell out of favor around the same time human sacrifice did and largely for the same reason - its not a sign of strength but a sign that you have no real solutions to your problems.
Viserys was named king not just because "he was a man" but because he was a Targaryen and Laenor was a VELARYON. They weren't going to just hand off the dynasty to their oldest supporting house.
LOL and yet Viserys basically tries to do the same thing with Jace anyway.
@@HillsAliveYT During the betrothal negotiation with Corleys Velaryon Viserys adds in a condition that when the heir produced by Rhaenyra and Laenor takes the throne he will do so as a TARGARYEN. So no, he didn't. lol
@@jtthomas7349 Yes I am aware, but Jacaerys is still Jacaerys Velaryon and not Targaryen, and it's not as if Laenor couldn't have changed his name too, so had Laenor won he would have been someone with the Velaryon name who was placed in line for the throne just like Jace was someone with the Velaryon name placed in line to inherit the Iron Throne. But I was just trying to point out something kind of ironic, not start a debate, so it's all good.
@@HillsAliveYT jacaerys is still a Targaryen, his mother is Targaryen
@@Piotr12396 Laenor is still a Targaryen, his mother is Targaryen.
Every now and again im happy I get reminded that normal people realise the fact that Daemon is an asshole, cos man if you see his stans on Twitter... you would think the show made Jesus turn out to be Lucifer
I had someone argue with me that he didn't Groom Rhaenyra because "it was normal in Westeros" completely ignoring the entire context behind the Brothel scene
Since Daemon did implanted the idea of Targaryen superiority in Rhaernya, I hope that idea bites him in the ass when Nettles comes along…
I have always thought that Renyeras 3 eldest children would likely lived in risk of what deamon might do for his own power and own line to succeed
I can’t deny the possibility of what this video suggests but I don’t think there is conclusive evidence to support it just yet.
I do think that Daemon “grooms” his niece is 100% accurate and really creepy the more you think about it.
But his “desire” for the iron throne isn’t black and white. Daemon is a rebellious child he wants whatever people tell him he can’t have. This shown in his inability to “finish” with women, if they are there and willing and too easy he can’t do anything, because it’s not the sex it’s knowing he’s not suppose that gets him off.
Daemon would be a bad king, but he also would hate being king, he shows no interest in government or politics, or even Westeros in general.
Rhaenyra is his only shot at the Throne once Aegon is born, but his desire for the throne (so far) seems more a metaphor for his brothers respect.
My two cents
Episode 10 made this even clearer, with lord bartimos celtigar and Ser lorent marbrand basically becoming his cronies. No queen consort has had that much power ever.
I think it’s telling that Viserys truly never considered Daemon his heir by the fact that he never shared Aegons prophecy with him. For how much Viserys values prophecy, to never inform him just on the off chance set in stone he never considered Daemon to be worthy of it even before naming Rhaenyra heir.
I don't think Daemon has any intention of usurping Rhaenyra's throne. He's not built for that kind of work and dedication. What Daemon enjoys is the proximity to power which is why he wanted so desperately to be Viserys' hand. He wants to be the power behind the throne (which is the more powerful position). I think in the last episode, he is, once again, attempting to be hand that Viserys denied him.
People are saying that if Rhaenyra married Aegon II everything would be fine. And that's true in the short term but you have to remember that Rhaenyra is sixteen years older than Aegon, that isn't exactly good for making heirs.
I do think that you are right when it comes to Daemons intentions in usurping Rhaenyras power in all but name, and there is a scene in the show that suppports this.
When Daemon is making the kingsguard swear their oaths anew to Rhaenyra as their queen he also makes them swear to prince Viserys as the heir to the iron throne, even though Rhaenyras oldest son is Jace. Why is this?
Well Viserys is the oldest child of Daemon and Rhaenyra, so it does make it pretty clear that he tends to wield power through his eldest son. And this does clearly indicate he wants to take power from Rhaenyra.
And consider this, he is making the kingsguard swear an oath to Viserys. Kingsguard who don't wield any particular power and are mostly bodyguards to the king. Their main use is their capacity for violence, so that makes it pretty clear how Daemon intends to use them. Should Jace ever ascend to the throne he better look out for these two, less he suffer a particularly violent end.
He can't use the kingsguard to remove Rhaenyra, nor am I sure he would want to. But I do think he absolutely has intentions to outlive her.
I like this channel, it had really interesting takes. There's something I believe was overlooked in the matter of Daemon's behavior last episode. I believe that they were paralleling Daemon's actions to Otto's (just like they did with Nyra's and Alicent's). I'll explain myself. In ep. 9 Otto believed that they needed to kill Rhaneyra and all "her people" to secure the greens' interests; I think Daemon also understands this. Is not just that he was trying to usurp Rhaenyra's power, but he understands that the only way for Aegon's rule to be safe is to kill Rhaenyra and all her opportunities to the throne (which directly implies her sons). Maybe that's what he would do if he was on the usurper side. So, while Rhaneyra is giving birth, he's taking cards on the matter and preparing for war (because it's inevitable), and yes I believe that he thinks he knows what's best and if he was in charge things would be better, in contraposition to Rhaenyra who is acting "week". So, even though there's probably always going to be a part of him who yearns for the power of the iron throne, this is a case of survival, nothing else. I'll give another example, when they were at the bridge discussing with Otto and he tried to kill him, the moment Rhaneyra said "no", he could've ignored her and done it, but he withdraw. So, yes, these characters are way too complex jaja maybe he wants the throne, but he also fears for his life and the lives of the people he loves, but he's also impulsive, etc. etc. etc.
It seems that most of the fandom isn't mentally mature enough to watch this show, otherwise Daemon wouldn't have a "cult" around him, this fandom really needs more people like you
I'm told that in Fire n Blood the smaller lords massively protested Rhaenyra being heir because a female being heir in the royal family would mean they're own daughters could start ruling and they didn't know how bad Daemon could be.
Yes, that was also a big problem. I think Viserys also never truly established new rules for the noble houses and how they are supposed to handle succession after he named her heir. 🤔
You should do a video on the parallels between Daemon and Maegor the Cruel. Maegor to me seems like the man Daemon wanted to be. He achieved almost every goal Daemon had.
Daemon kills people for his gains, Maegor kills people for fun, they are not the same.
it's funny that the daemon haters are twisting the book just to say they hate daemon 💀
guys, you don't need to pretend you don't understand the source material just to say you don't like daemon. it's ok to dislike daemon without equating him with the targaryen hitler who wanted to annihilate all the devout worshippers of the seven and actually killed innocent bystanders just so he can have the street cred of having killed some of the faith militants.
@@maggyfrog I don't know anything Maegor did that Daemon wouldn't do.
@@TheKenganKing
LOL daemon never did what maegor did in his reign. it's pure projection on the daemon haters' part that daemon would have campaigned to exterminate people. enemies at war, for sure he will try to kill as many as he can, but to go out and commit genocide for the sake of genocide is not daemon. daemon is a different kind of dark person.
@@maggyfrog Maegor didn't commit genocide for the sake of it. He killed people who forsake him or rebelled. You clearly don't understand Maegor's character.
Also daemon would have been an awful ruler. He has no interest in sitting on a throne and doing all the diplomatic work. He just wants power. Viserys and Otto saw that part and that's why rhaneyra was made heir. How are his fans forgetting it?? Everyone around him knew he would be a bad ruler. Aegon's and rhaneyra's marriage would have stopped everything. This way rhaneyra's would still have the throne, the green side would have their power and Daemon would be far away from the line. Viserys was an idiot to refuse to this proposal. Alicent tried to stop this by proposing this match. Team Black fans just aren't ready for that conversation.
I don't think Daemon would usurp her. He's not that power-hungry. I think he wants action more than anything, he's impatient and gets bored. He's aware of the boring side of being a king, like listening to petitions and discussing tax policy. Even in his power-seeking behaviour, he wants the thrill of chasing it, not power in and of itself. Consider what he does with the Stepstones, he becomes King there and then... gets bored and gives up the crown. A truly power-hungry person would never give that up.
That's what the hand is for honestly lol
Jaehaerys had to name Baelon cuz he knew that if he followed the ACTUAL law, ppl would make more noise abt how he himself took the throne from someone else...
While I had always pointed out how the succession crisis was a group effort, I hadn't given as much weight to Daemon's actions as I should have. I don't like Daemon but I like him as a character if that makes sense. To me, while there are definitely feelings, Daemyra's marriage is for political reasons. Do you think Daemon would've been as active in the war if he hadn't been able to marry Rhaenyra?
I think he probably would have been pretty involved, because ultimately he's never going to have a superior claim to Viserys' sons and the Hightowers will never fuck with him so Rhaenyra was his only shot at power either way. Plus he at the very least likes Rhaenyra while he doesn't seem to even acknowledge the Hightower Targaryens.
I had a stray thought the other day; how long would Rhaenyra's sons by Laenor (Harwin) have lived - even without the civil war - when Daemon has now successfully had sons, of his *true* blood?
It seems as though he likes the boys well enough as people (as seen by how he takes Jace in hand, as Rhaenyra's heir- & will later avenge Luke's death), & with **external** enemies to focus on- he's relatively protective of them - however, the idea that his legitimate sons are _behind_ those that people whisper are bastards, would *have* to grate eventually.
It kind of makes me think a little of someone like Cersei, who imo does not love her children for their own sake, but as extensions of herself - while Daemon's sons are small, having the older boys could be useful (especially if they had **children** by their cousins, his own daughters- making them his sons-in-law, as well as stepsons/ great-nephews - who *would* be undeniably part-Targaryen, by three points; Rhaenyra, Daemon, & Rhaenys- & Velaryrion by two; Laena & Corlys)- but as they grow, it could get interesting...
How long would the three of them have survived Daemon's ambitions for his own sons to succeed him & Rhaenyra, if they hadn't died in the war...?
Everyone being hypocritical dogging Christen Cole and yet Fan girling over Deamon like he’s not asshole either lol. I like Deamon lol I like Cole too tho lol that’s just me tho lol 😂
*cup-handed shout from the back of the room* “they would ALL be terrible leaders”
(see also: the present state of politics in my country, the US)
About halfway through the series I just started respecting him for how much of a menace he was. In every scene he is he's always so smug or at least self confident
Thank you for making this video it really helped me understand where the Greens are coming from.
I never get how people can love or cheer for characters like Daemon or Ramsay Bolton. I find them disguting. And whil I am aware they are not the only fault, since their history and the way they were treated by others lead to this kind if behavior, this is where I draw the line. Daemon was litterally presented sitting on the iron throne, in shadows. And we're meant to believe he's a good guy ? I would love to know more about his personal history, to understand him even better.
The way I see it is at a certain point a character becomes so insane you just kind of forget that what they did is bad.
It's like when the whole planet is in danger from being blown up you don't care as much about the stakes because you know the author won't destroy the planet and you can't really imagine a planet blowing up.
However people are a lot more invested when someone loses a treasured childhood memento.
Like, in Episode 1 Daemon butchers people on mass in the city, that's a outlandish scenario to most people so rather than empathizing with the people in the city they enjoy Daemon making fun of Otto.
However, in Episode 10, when we see Daemon choke Rhaenyra that's a more grounded event that happens to a character we care about so the fanbase is able to see more clearly that it was a bad thing Daemon did.
Bruh so if Jacerys was legitimate he'd actually be the most senior heir of Jaehaerys I not through Rhaenyra but through Laenor. I think the main reason why Laenor was skipped over was that he was a kid. Medieval times didn't like child rulers. The Velaryon claim is the Black's best claim over the Greens honestly. Rhaenys, Baela, and Rhaena should be the true heirs even by Westerosi rules unlike Rhaenyra so they are all worse victims of sexism than her. Daemon is the villain of this story. Everything he does can be interpreted as a move to get closer to the crown (Killing his wife, the Stepstones war, marrying a Velaryon claimant, grooming Rhaenyra, getting 4 of his children in the line of succession before him, killing Green claimants etc). That's probably also why he insisted more than anyone else for fighting the dance. It will be interesting to see how his personal ambition plays into the Black's seizing power in the show. It was already clear on the show that he's the only character that was never going to accept Aegon's usurpation and coronation. I could see how his presence alone would draw people away from the Rhaenyra and the Blacks.
LOL well yes in a sense, ironically if Rhaenyra's older sons were legitimate then they would have combined the claims of Laenor and Viserys in a sense. And I think there were a few reasons why Laenor lost. I think it was because he was a kid, because he was a Targaryen through his mother's bloodline, and because the Targaryen dynasty could have potentially shifted to the Velaryon dynasty. And yes, it's ironic that people root for the Blacks in the name of female empowerment when Rhaenyra is essentially attempting to usurp Baela and Rhaena's true claims in favor of her children who are not even Velaryons. And yes, while plenty of people contribute to the mess that this situation becomes, Daemon's shenanigans are an inciting factor to a lot of the fuckery.
Again, every time, the Targs are their own worst enemies. Great video!
Side question, HotD seems to be holding the narrative that Jon is the Prince the was promised. Do you agree book wise that this is the case? I know some say it’s Dany. You might have already addressed this and I forgot.
I don't, I tend to subscribe to the theory that Dany is the PTWP but I think that the PTWP is meant to be more villainous than heroic.
Finally! A video we can agree upon. Yes I watch almost all your videos even if I don’t agree with your take most of the time. You have a very nice way of expressing yourself. I’m glad this was the exception. Cheers!
Daemon was a creepy groomer who never valued his niece. Viscerys should have ordered daemon to the wall.
I think it is funny that Daemon might have been able to go a much further way in life just by doing nothing and being chill. If he just relaxed and caused no controversy, the realm would be totally comfortable with this adult, dragon riding and capable backup heir.
True. After Otto he could have been hand the way he wanted. And he could have his marriage anulled, because it was not consumated. Which Viserys would probably do if he would have been more chill. And then marry Rhaenyra. And he'd still be heir. He is his own worst enemy 😅
Maybe Viserys wouldn't have married again and just let Daemon have Rhaenyra 🤔
@@danika9411 Completely agree, this is one of the examples where doing nothing allows you to gain everything, in fact, there might even be political pressure in his favour (i.e. annul marriage and marry Rhaenrya so realm could be stable etc. etc.), so it's all so ironic.
long time watcher, first time commenter. your videos are always a dose of reality amongst all this fantasy ❤
Excellent video as always
Didn’t Viserys tell his councilmen (while Daemon was eavesdropping) that Daemon doesn’t want the throne, cause he lacks the patience for it? Daemon also really wanted to be his bro’s Hand, he made quite the fuss about it in Ep. one. He also told Viserys he wants to restore their house back to its proper state. Daemon also told Laena that it was refreshing not having to deal with politics and squabbling (if they took the Pentos job offered to them). In all, I think Daemon would much rather be Queen Rhaenyra’s Hand, and he probably assumed she wasn’t properly trained by Viserys to jump into the role as ruler of 7 kingdoms. Right before Viserys died, she’s sitting on his bed, crying and carrying on about having to deal with burden as the heir. I think Daemon knew she wasn’t prepared to handle the stresses of the job, but he knew he could hit the ground running when the time came. This is why I think Daemon was expecting to work in a similar role as Tywin Lannister did.
Viserys's counsel are worried that Deamon will be the second Meagor if he become a king, but there is positive side of that which is that Demon as king will be feared by everyone so no one will dare to start some thing
So Daemon's desire for the throne is tricky. I genuinely believe Daemon doesn't really care if he sits on the throne or not. But because he's a Targaryen supremacist so he believes that whoever sits on the throne should also be that. That's why he hated Viserys' reign because he kowtows to the aristocracy rather than affirming Targaryen strength.
She only became heir because Otto and everyone else wanted hot tempered, act first think later, casually commits violence, insults and murders as he pleases, killed and abused his first wife, arrogant, entitled, believes in Targaryen Valyrian supremacy and fuck everyone else, Daemon Targaryen far far away from it!
The Greens don’t fear Rhaenyra they fear Daemon whispering in her ear. Aegon is terrible in the show but at least he has less violent and unpredictable voices whispering in his ear with experience running a kingdom like Otto, Alicent, Criston, etc. We see during the Brothel incident just how much influence Daemon has on Rhaenyra. He’s a groomer. Martin had written that he’s interested in the look and innocence of a child. As much as I hate analyzing this show from a modern moral perspective, he no doubt preyed and groomed Rhaenyra.
He does love his family deep down. But he loves power more and thrives in war and chaos. And although he likes her elder three boys his stepsons. No doubt he would not be satisfied with his daughters being their consorts. He’d find his son superior on the basis on legitimacy and having two Valyrian parents. It’s obvious from interactions he has little true affection for this step kids as they do not have much love for him. We’d have a Dance of dragons with or without green rebellion. His sons or their descendants would press their claim. He loves power.
Why were black stans shocked he domestic violence choked a Rhaenyra? He wants war!
The show makes Daemon more evil than he actually was in the books while making Rhaenyra seem more innocent. Rhaenyra is a very vile and ruthless woman herself but the show writers want to make her the hero. The Dance of the Dragon was supposed to be a gray morality type of struggle or st the very least evil vs evil. No side was more altruistic than the other. The end result of this war left everyone screwed.
Yeah don’t why people think team blacks is so much better then greens also btw if aemond lived then Targaryens would still have a dragon