The "Insert" Insert is one of my favorite things SUSD has ever done, as an absolutely incredible homage to the amazing work of Tim Rogers at Action Button.
When I played through JotL with my wife, we both assumed that generating an element immediately made it available to be used. We had a lot of fun with that until we realized we were playing it wrong. So, we decided to screw the rules and keep playing it our way regardless. When we later picked up Gloomhaven digitally, and HAD to use the Element system the game's way, we definitely preferred characters that interacted with that system as LITTLE as possible. She went with Scoundrel and later Angry Face and had fun, while I struggled with Spellweaver, despised Triforce, and ended up loving Sun.
@@ObsidianKnight90 And with your comment I've just found out I've been playing GH and FH wrong for years. Oh wow. The digital assistant I use has been letting me do it so I didn't see a problem!
My group hated road events, so we just stopped doing road events. Was happy to see they weren't a thing in JotL. If I play FH, guess we'll see how long they stick around.
@@007Kiristo Gloomhaven events suck. Take the very first one - a pack of wolves shows up randomly. Your choices are to (a) run away or (b) fight them. (a) results in everyone being Poisoned at the start of the next Scenario. (b) results in everyone starting the next Scenario with 3 damage. Events suck for several reasons. First, they rarely hint at which option is more likely to result in a good outcome, making them a coin toss unless you're in a second playthrough or were spoiled. Second, sometimes BOTH options have approximately the same result, meaning there's no real point in choosing. Third, and most importantly, there's no way to influence the outcome like you could in, say, a TRPG or CRPG. If you decide to run from the wolves you can't make a Dexterity check, or a Nature check, to see if you avoid the poisonous brambles on the way out. If you decide to face the wolves, you can't make an Intimidation or Animal Handling check to avoid having to fight them. There's isn't even something as simple as ignoring the penalty for (a) if you have a Scoundrel in the party or ignoring (b) if you have a Beast Tyrant. Frosthaven has added a bunch of Traits to each character so I think those might be used to adjust the outcome of these events, or they could just be roleplaying aids. I really hope it's the former and there's some more nuance to how Events are handled in that system.
Tom's segment on the insert... pure genius. Made watching through to the end entirely worth it. Great work, I assumed this would have to be a long video but was a bit flabbergasted when I saw the full run time. Despite that, I don't think it felt overly repetitive. Well done!
I laughed so hard as Matt is laboriously organising/unpacking/punching Frosthaven. As he is doing so, he goes on to say "...and at the bottom of the box, you'll find a SECOND copy of Frosthaven." Oh the wonderful madness of our hobby! Tom's interstitial bonus content near the end of the video is great. "The Frosthaven insert was my Game of the Year (2022)". Nuff said, I'll be ordering the insert yesterday. This was almost 48 minutes of pure entertainment! Thank you, SU&SD, for all that you do.
@@CWRules With the caveat that I've yet to pull the trigger on doing so, so it's possible it's not going to work out so well, I've been considering getting the LaserOx Monster Box to store the monsters in in combination with the provided insert, rather than having to clear dozens of baggies of monsters each time I want to check something in the box (it's not quite so bad when it comes to actually setting up for play because at least then you're setting up for a few hours). My friends who got the Folded Space insert, have actually ditched that one's monster organisation to use the baggies instead. The one major downside with both the initial third-party inserts is that they store the map tiles in a separate box, which makes my scenario of taking the game elsewhere to play with people more fiddly.
@@CWRules mine fell apart after a few games. Cheap plastic. Hated the storage for the overlay tiles, impossible to find anything and the baggies for the monsters is horrible for managing. In my opinion the Laserox insert is a massive upgrade.
Tom randomly appearing to talk about JOTL was very welcome and appreciated honestly. In America I've seen it as low as $20, which is literally ten times cheaper than Frosthaven. Wild.
I'm super excited for Frost of the Lion. Just can't commit to the full Frost but I have been loving JOTL. And I think producing a smaller stand alone version is a brilliant marketing strategy
We are having a great time with Frosthaven, but from this point forward, I have no interest in the big boxes. If they make more JotL-type games? Man, sign me up. If I ever escape from Frosthaven, anyway.
Yeah, it almost seems wrong how cheap and how good that game is... I LOVE me some Gloomhaven (and played it for years) but JotL really boils it down to just the good stuff.
I know it's because he was dealing with moving and logistic nightmares, but I like to think that the reason we've been so long without a Matt-headlined review is because he was trapped by this monolith of a game and unable to do anything but prepare for however many months. Amazing work.
So, my Gloomhaven group moved away (the organizer anyway) and I sold my copy of Gloomhaven since it was mostly untouched (again, played my friend’s copy) and started a new group for Frosthaven with people who had no experience with Gloomhaven and not even necessarily a ton of gaming experience and while we’ve only played a few times (first level up next session!) so far it’s been pretty good and everyone seems to be enjoying it! Maybe that will change and it’ll get to be too complex but just thought I’d share that so far the new players are actually doing fine and enjoying it as well.
@@ManFromTheFizz Still pretty good! We actually had to draft another person (also entirely unfamiliar with the “Haven” games) and he’s been enjoying it as well. Though I will say that it was funny because the first few games went way over time and had way more complicated/difficult interactions than anything we’d really run into before (indestructible zombies, endlessly spawning piranha pigs) and had to promise him it was not all like that. Even with that, though, he still seemed to really enjoy it and we’re still moving on with our campaign bit by bit!
The Insert Insert is pure genious! Also thank you for promoting Jaws of the Lion, it sits here, waiting to be played as it is the only one of these "havenly" games that I have any realistic chance of playing. Thanks to both of you for these deep thoughts.
5:03 yeee gods, admitting the co-op "we've been playing for 2 hours and I'm not playing this scenario again. Fine let's cheat". Excellent bit of honesty 👌
@@guildencrantz133 At the end of the day, some scenarios in Gloomhaven were just.. not.. great. Oozes spring to mind. You end up losing not because of anything you did, but just because of how the cards came up. And you may just not want to play a scenario for 12 hours, taking four swings at it until you manage it. Also there's just some things which are fine to handwave. Didn't like your skill upgrade and it's barely been a scenario or two, sure, whatever, mulligan it for the other one. You /know/ you can get the treasure by grabbing it and failing and it's 100% guaranteed? Just say you got the stupid chest. Same shit for "you are lacking 1 gold for that 40 gold item" fuck it, do you want to set up an entire mission to kill one guy to pick up one coing to then retreat? 1 hour of stuff just to get 1 coin? Nah.
@The_Cosmo agreed. Funny enough playing with a mate, for the first two cards we added we missed the line about removing one. We looked at each other and just shrugged and carried on, we were playing it only when we had the time anyway and having fun. We were fine carrying on as we had done
What an amazing and absurdly entertaining review! And o dear, the insert insert is just too good! Astoundingly fantastically written. You folks truly are great artists and I sincerely hope you are proud and get as much joy from making this as you give back to us. You absolute legends!
Yeah, this is for me. My group have played all of Gloomhaven, all of Forgotten Circles, we've played all of Jaws of the Lion, we've strung all of the community campaigns together into a 40 scenario campaign and we are currently working our way through the crimson scales, for which we have trail of ashes as well. We can't get enough
Same here, without the crimson scales as we're en EU. Will probably jump to FH as soon as we can, although we want to play some other games first.And JotL is great!
As someone who has played Gloomhaven, Forgotten Circles and now started Frosthaven, JOTL is absolutely my favourite of the lot. I hope they do make the JOTL style campaign books for Gloomhaven and Frosthaven that Isaac mentioned during the Frosthaven campaign
@@arjunarabindranath I played Gloomhaven first and loved it, but even with the app to reduce the necessary components, expanding file for map tiles, craft trays for sorting the overlay tiles, and tuck boxes for the monsters, setup was still tedious. The worst part was the overlay tiles because they were double sided (they've fixed that in Frosthaven, but now they have a bunch of different ones that look very similar which is also annoying). Forgotten Circles is great because you can see how much fun was had with the level design. But it also has some levels with too many monsters which just makes the admin part of the game take aaaaages. Also it sometimes uses both sides of some overlay tiles so you have to be even more careful when setting up (and I think one or 2 of the maps are actually impossible to create). I suspect it was designed using a digital version. With Jotl you open the book to the right page and get the monsters out and you're done. It also does a much better job of teaching the game gradually by having fewer, simplified cards for the first few scenarios and introducing rules gradually. As the person who normally has to read the rules and set up the games, it's just so much less effort. It turns out I appreciate the well crafted, streamlined experience more than I miss having all the extra character choice and monster variety. I get that Frosthaven is a sequel and Isaac had different goals with it, but personally I was disappointed when it didn't take all of those massive improvements from JOTL.
Our group is in the category you mentioned at the end of people who have completely finished Gloomhaven et al and wanted more more more. We are LOVING it. It truly is just what we wanted. So while I disagree with a lot of your criticisms, that is only because you are so right that its only really meant to be for those that have finished the marathon and want to go out for a run the next day. It isnt for everyone, but if you play JOTL and Gloomhaven and want more, then it is for you!
Lovely review. And I'm pretty sure, "If you're not really sure, just do whatever it feels like make sense" actually is a line in the rulebook of Jaws of the Lion, at least in reference to how enemies should move
There kind of is! "If it is ever ambiguous where a monster will move because it has multiple equally viable options, the players decide which option to take."
I see where Matt is coming from, and I know that this is definitely an extreme game, but I am in a weird position where I hard disagree with nearly every one of his complaints (although some where spot on). I played Gloomhaven with a group of friends and we finished it about 4 years ago, it took us playing once a weekend at my friend's place for about a year and a half. I loved it, and it became the best 200 bucks I ever spent on a game (up to that point). I kickstarted Frosthaven and waited through covid for my 41 pound box to arrive. I now play frosthaven with a different group of friends, they are both new to the haven games. From my perspective, the book was 100 times better than any rule book I ever read, gloomhaven took me 8 hours to read through and understand the first time, I was done the frosthaven book in 2 hours because of the "patch notes" style of writing. I think the mistake was teaching the rules from the book which it really isn't designed for, the easiest way to teach it is exactly what Matt did in the opening of the video, you play two cards, top of one and bottom of the other, everything else will makes sense after a single play through to any new player (and you can slowly teach them the other parts that they can do to take some of the admin off of your shoulders, like the elemental chart, help with set up, etc.) I also planned to never clean up frosthaven until it was finished, I am blessed to have a spot that I can set it up and leave it set up for our next session, which was my biggest complaint of gloomhaven and why I don't break it out any more, its just too much to set up. Frosthaven has this issue too (there is no real way around it if you want to keep the same scale), but the organizers do help with that. Now when my friends come over to play, its like we are actually entering the city of Frosthaven, the upgrades feel real and all of the town developments so far have felt interesting. We aren't playing the game "to get through it" or "to unlock things as quickly as possible", we are just having an adventure stumbling through the various mechanics. I have never used any of the "time saver" apps, to me the grandness of the admin lines up with the grandness of the game. If I wanted a simpler game I would play a simpler game, for me the grand design of the 41 pounds is what I paid for. Gloomhaven's map board was always extra fluff, adding nothing that couldn't be replaced by a simple list of numbers for which mission you could play and what achievements you have, but Frosthaven's map I find myself looking at more and more, considering how we should upgrade the town and appreciating the art. The complexity of the starting classes is definitely higher in Frosthaven, and for those who don't know, Matt's character was ranked at the highest level of complexity according to the rulebook, so complaining that it is complex feels to me like yelling at an apple for being an apple. I also picked a very complex character and I found myself quickly (and surprisingly) overwhelmed at first (and for about 8 missions afterwards) in how to play them. I have figured them out for the most part now, but I can still see they will change as further levels are unlocked. I haven't finished the game yet (we haven't even hit first winter), but I am in no rush to do so. This is a long-form game that feels the best when you take your time through it, and while I know not everyone has the time to commit to a game like this, I find it very enjoyable. If you want something you can fully teach/learn/play quickly, its not the game for you, but thats kind of the point of it. Just the size of the box should tell you that this game is a commitment. No hate though, as I am sure many other people feel the same way Matt does, I may really love this game, but I also understand where he is coming from.
Petition for Matt/SUSD to release a full read through of both Gloomhaven and Frosthaven. I don't even have copies of those games - I just think it would be hilarious and fun :D
On the part of Pudding, I must say it's been an absolute favorite of my group. We look forward each time we return to the town to building more stuff, crafting items, and brewing potions. For us it's byfar the best part of the game that's new from GH.
I think that is the thing, it reminds me a lot of a DnD campaign. It is absolutely amazing IF you a group of like-minded individuals that value the same aspects of a game that is A LOT OF THINGS at the same time. That will determine how enjoyable it is, I think.
Gods, you had me in tears at least five times during this video. Great work guys, I've been waiting breathlessly for this one for a while and as usual it's much more than I could have ever hoped! I'm in it for the boardgame reviews, but really, I'm in it for the sublime comedy.
definitely. I actually know several persons (including me) who often do not agree with your opinion or interpretation, but all of us love your style of work and comedy.
This was a delight to watch because my wife and I have been playing it for several weeks now and I agree with virtually every point made. It also makes me feel a lot better about the way we have settled in to playing our copy. (95% knowingly wrong)
Gloom haven was the first game that I owned that made me ask, “why is this not just a computer game?” I loved all the stuff in it, but with all the upkeep it just crossed over the line. Thankfully the digital version exists and is awesome.
Next year, Board Game Geek needs to add a category to their awards for "Board game-related media" so this can win the prize. Truly a triumph. "Despot of the Kallax" is amazing, but "InCell" sent me. From now on, anytime I assemble something from Ikea, I'm just going to imagine it as a board game campaign.
My group was extremely stoked and anxious to finally get this wonderful gem into our hands after having completed the GH campaign. About a dozen or so scenarios in and we're enjoying it, to be sure, but it's honestly been a bit of a mixed bag of pros and cons in comparison to GH. The scenarios are largely far more complex than any GH scenario, which isn't a negative in and of itself, but it does make many scenarios take much longer than the average GH scenario. This is exacerbated by the added complexity of many of the new character classes. The more robust outpost phase provides some interesting decisions, but building things up, which is limited by prosperity level, takes a while to start to really develop with any depth. It's honestly still not very intriguing after over a dozen scenarios. There are definitely some pros, but in the end it's just not the absolute mind blower we kind of expected.
I was super disappointed to discover that the unpacking instructions don't actually tell you to keep punching or take a break and call family or mock itself for being a beast of a box. I definitely pulled my box back out to check haha
We divide games in strange and ad hoc ways: heaviness, complexity, time taken; and what I like about the through line of this, Root, and PoK for Shut Up Sit Down is that they maintain a division on the lines of how much communication one does with the people at the table. It is a border that needs recognising more in the hobby.
12:50 - what I did with my group of friend when we play gloomhaven back then was letting them join on the first scenario and I explained the rules bit by bit as the game goes, depending on what situation we're encountered with. True it does cost us with 3 hours of failed scenario run, but at least we're having fun in the end!
I’m a fair bit through the frosthaven campaign, and in my opinion everything is improved. Everywhere there was imbalance and jank in base is touched up. I agree seeing upgrading the town as the main goal is a trap. Rather, it’s an improvement on the original game’s loot and prosperity system. In gloomhaven, loot was just coins, just used for your own character to buy items or enhancements. Now, it’s the people’s loot! Most of your loot will go towards building something for the group, which feels a lot better. When someone says, heck yea guys, I’ve got 5 metal and 5 wood, I’ll cover this upgrade all by myself they get a cheer! I agree it’s all ultimately fluff and the most important thing is the gameplay, but I think it smooths the edges. There were several unlockable characters in base gloomhaven that had deep rooted design flaws or just certain play styles that were to powerful. I think frosthaven has smoothed this over as well which much better designed characters. Remember the invisibility cloak and how you could stand in a doorway like an obstacle? Remember how rolling modifiers with advantage sucked? Remember how summons always killed themselves and you were sol? Frosthaven solves all these problems and more. It’s a great investment for anyone who enjoyed gloomhaven and wants a new, more refined sequel.
I suppose I am among the few who have, as you say, actually somehow managed to finish gloomhaven and wanted more. I think you have to play it a real long time for some of the flaws to start glaring at you so that you’re excited about the new improved system. basically matt’s a filthy casual
I like the idea of investing in the town, and that giving you more of an incentive to want to be a hero and protect them. However, it does seem to have a lot of cards and fiddly bits when it could instead be tracked on a piece of paper just like your character.
I had some issues with the negativity of some of Matt's comments. Like Aedror Windrunner, I'm about 25 missions into Frosthaven and couldn't be more impressed with it. It's taken every thing good about Gloomhaven and trimmed out the bad.
This video got so much more philosophical than I could imagine when I first clicked a video review that is the length of a short film. I love seeing the raw emotion and torn feelings Matt had during his criticism of the systems.
My Frosthaven group is about a month and a half in. In that time we've built several resource building, got our ship, full cleared a quest line, and even got a free upgrade to our barracks and so far it's been great
I had about the exact opposite experience of Matt. I used apps, TTS, played the digital version of Gloomhaven all in order to make the game less fiddly. But when I got Frosthaven and played without any apps (except Foreteller narration which is a lot of fun), I realized how much fun I was missing in fiddling with actual components and shuffling decks a hundred times a game. I also think I might be a strange person who enjoys setting up games almost as much as much playing them. I have no difficulty in remembering to use the element slider trackers at the beginning of every round. I thought that was strange comment from Matt. All in all, I love Frosthaven. I think it is better than Gloomhaven in almost every way. I love the little cardboard initiative trackers. The stories are interesting and characters are very unique. My wife and I are probably nearing 50 scenarios completed and are having a blast (playing two characters each). It rewards you for being smart and doesn't punish you too hard for being foolish. Definitely not for everyone. And I do agree that Gloomhaven is a better entry point for the series for newcomers.
I simply can't believe anyone thinks the loot deck being manual is anything but a spawn of hell. This is the only thing my group uses the app for, and I feel it is required.
Tbf, I never played gloomhaven, but me and my wife adore Founders of Gloomhaven. If Founder's manual is anything to go off of, the manual for Frosthaven must be a nightmare to read through and easily overlook key details.
After over 250 hours of Haven across three games, with the same group; i can unequivocally say that the glue holding this game together is subtle cheating. Many times my group would play a mission and quickly realize, "we have to restart and choose different cards with more movement/ CC/ Damage," and so we would. But on rare and more important occasions we'd be hours deep into a mission, within sniffing distance of victory, and start to lose based on luck. In these situations we'd turn to eachother, waggle our eyebrows, and say, "nah that enemy missed and you killed him, great job!" Really helped keep interest and momentum which is why i hate the digital version of gloomhaven.
"Okay we're All set. All I have to do is not pull the miss card, and I already drew it twice this session." Miss. Oh, would you look at that,I had baric inspiration from my last dnd campaign and I never used it.
Excellent analysis! Really enjoyed the take on styles of writing - narrated versus read out by a player. Super interesting to consider how sometimes polishing and balancing can make a smoother experience, but not necessarily more exciting. Definitely a hard one to balance during development.
OMG Matt and Tom. This was amazing. Thank you for this. The insert as the game of the year LOLOLOL, Matt in excellent form and doing what he does best. Bravo!
This review was really good, and also really on point. I'm pretty sure anybody that starts Frosthaven from no other Gloomhaven background will just melt. I mean just reading the 6 starting characters, their complexity level seems at best on par with the weirder characters of the 17-18 Gloomhaven ones. My group (that is also a regular TTRPG group that happened to play Gloomhaven at some point) finished Gloomhaven, and Forgotten Circles... Frosthaven was litterally made for us.
This video is now my #1 video in whole youtube. This should be nominated for the best script! You managed to say everything I think about the game, but didnt know I did until I watched this video. And a lot more that I am likely to be thinking when the game finally arrives. Amazing job as always!! ps. Im getting very anxious waiting my package.. : D
I've been sick the last couple of days and Matt and Tom just cheered me up! That part about cheating around the 5 minute mark had me howling... because of how relatable it was! Thank you! ❤
Wow, this is a long review! But welcome. As a person who's only played Gloomhaven about 1/3 of the way through I wrestled with backing the Frosthaven kickstarter. Very glad I was able to resist the urge - especially now that I've played through Jaws of the Lion with some friends and had an absolute blast, but realized my need for many, many more hours of the system was really not there. I very much hope to get back to Gloomhaven at some point but with 2000 games or more released every year it seems almost foolish to spend another 100 hours (or more) on a game that's already given me a fantastic experience. Not criticizing anybody else's decision here, just glad for my own part that I resisted, especially having watched this video. Thanks SUSD team for another great offering, proud to be a patreon supporter!
just have to say it: the whole video is superb in content as well as execution. But - my god - that reanrangement of the moonlight-sonata to duett-form ist pure mastery. Thank you for this!
Jaws really is the best and most reasonable of the Havens. Reasonablehaven. It doesn't take a half hour to set up, it doesn't take a half hour to pool resources and upgrade your town at the end in the hopes that it will make something happen this time, and it's actually reasonable to carry the box to the bar or a friend's house. Gloomhaven was a cool idea that got a bit carried away. Frosthaven was just more of everything without fixing anything, but Jaws of the Lion manages to fit in all of the good stuff without the hassle of far, far too much physical content.
Thanks for this! Matt's review of Gloomhaven got me started down the road of thinking about board game design and criticism, and I can say simply that this review did not disappoint. Also, it reminded me of your initial impressions podcast when Frosthaven was released, and I'm looking forward to Matt and Tom's further discussion. I've played Gloomhaven once, and half of JotL (can't wait to get back to finish it), and I'm confident that I enjoy these reviews even more!
Nailed it. I love SU&SD reviews. And I love Frosthaven, so far. So I'm sitting here watching, thinking "Man, I really like this game, and Matt is pretty down on this game. I find that surprising". But then, at the end, he calls out exactly why. "I think this game is for one group of people... this is for people who have finished Gloomhaven, and they really just want more". Bingo. My play group and I have played through Gloomhaven in its entirety three times over. Which is f&*@'ing nuts, of course. But explains why we're so in to Frosthaven. Our same group loves the Prophecy of Kings expansion to Twilight Imperium, which SU&SD was also down on for similar reasons. Bigger isn't always better. Keep up the good work!
41:15 "The game that ejects others from your collection in Cuckoo-like fashion" is only second to "Despot of the Kallax" as the greatest line coined here (THE ENTIRE INTERNET, not just SUSD or RUclips), and probably the only time I've actually laughed at loud at a line in any podcast/review. A brilliant reference that the purist hardcore collectors will probably get. Genius. That these lines all come one on top of the other is incredible.
Neither Gloomhaven nor Frosthaven as games have ever particularly interested me, but I absolutely love Matt‘s videos reviewing and discussing them. Perhaps it is the huge boxes that are putting me off - they are weirdly intimidating… But on second thoughts, Tom may have just tempted me to try Jaws of the Lion… though I do wish the Forgotten Circles expansion was a stand alone game as the box graphics look gorgeous.
Am I the only one who thought the guy on the bike in the window early in the video was a background gag I had to rewind 4 times till I realized it was just a guy on a bike
Bloody hell Matt, that was the most insightful "board game review" I've ever watched. Some genuinely fascinating and thought-provoking ideas! Certainly Frosthaven is everything I thought I wanted from a Gloomhaven sequel, but I'm not sure I was actually right about those things.
I am definitely the target for this game, and this review also. Sure, I'm gonna get the Frost bigger box, but I really need this honest take on the game. I feel we all really wanted to hear that this game is greater and better and has no backfires… But… it is not the case. And it’s fine, I am still gonna get it, I am about to start my third Gloomhaven campaign, I finished it once, and I finished Jaws of the Lion. But I wanted to hear an honest review. I will enjoy it, but I know I'm never gonna get the feeling I had when I opened the good old Gloomy for the first time. Thank you, Matt, I love you are here again.
This review reminds me of my experience with the digital version of Gloomhaven. It's certainly a more convenient experience, but the part that always sticks out to me is having to play the rules as written, even when I'd really rather not. I'm a strong proponent of allowing players to completely respec their characters at basically no cost,, thereby encouraging players to experiment. The video game version forces you to commit to every card you select when levelling up. In practice, this just meant I looked up the best build online.
Thank you, as always, for your wonderful video - you guys are great! Love your guys work and always worth a watch! ❤ There were so many genuinely thought provoking moments; I particularly liked the comment around COVID impact on co-op vs. semi-co-op play; I think that's definitely something worth further investigation and discussion if you get the chance; what games have been developed during this period, is this an evidential trend?
The "Insert" Insert is one of my favorite things SUSD has ever done, as an absolutely incredible homage to the amazing work of Tim Rogers at Action Button.
Came here to type roughly the same thing. So well done!
Truth!
Absolutly. But why is he using white glue??!!
I've been seeing Tim Rogers's's's's influence on Tom for a while now. It's great to see!
I heard Rog' coming through as well, brilliant
"Let's cheat!" I laughed out loud, both at the great comedy of the bit, and because we have TOTALLY done that.
When I played through JotL with my wife, we both assumed that generating an element immediately made it available to be used. We had a lot of fun with that until we realized we were playing it wrong. So, we decided to screw the rules and keep playing it our way regardless.
When we later picked up Gloomhaven digitally, and HAD to use the Element system the game's way, we definitely preferred characters that interacted with that system as LITTLE as possible. She went with Scoundrel and later Angry Face and had fun, while I struggled with Spellweaver, despised Triforce, and ended up loving Sun.
@@ObsidianKnight90 And with your comment I've just found out I've been playing GH and FH wrong for years. Oh wow. The digital assistant I use has been letting me do it so I didn't see a problem!
My group hated road events, so we just stopped doing road events. Was happy to see they weren't a thing in JotL. If I play FH, guess we'll see how long they stick around.
@@007Kiristo Gloomhaven events suck. Take the very first one - a pack of wolves shows up randomly. Your choices are to (a) run away or (b) fight them. (a) results in everyone being Poisoned at the start of the next Scenario. (b) results in everyone starting the next Scenario with 3 damage.
Events suck for several reasons. First, they rarely hint at which option is more likely to result in a good outcome, making them a coin toss unless you're in a second playthrough or were spoiled. Second, sometimes BOTH options have approximately the same result, meaning there's no real point in choosing.
Third, and most importantly, there's no way to influence the outcome like you could in, say, a TRPG or CRPG. If you decide to run from the wolves you can't make a Dexterity check, or a Nature check, to see if you avoid the poisonous brambles on the way out. If you decide to face the wolves, you can't make an Intimidation or Animal Handling check to avoid having to fight them. There's isn't even something as simple as ignoring the penalty for (a) if you have a Scoundrel in the party or ignoring (b) if you have a Beast Tyrant.
Frosthaven has added a bunch of Traits to each character so I think those might be used to adjust the outcome of these events, or they could just be roleplaying aids. I really hope it's the former and there's some more nuance to how Events are handled in that system.
Noooooooooooo we never have cheated when we play our copy............
Tom's segment on the insert... pure genius. Made watching through to the end entirely worth it. Great work, I assumed this would have to be a long video but was a bit flabbergasted when I saw the full run time. Despite that, I don't think it felt overly repetitive. Well done!
I read this before seeing it and was STILL not disappointed!
The construction of a foam core city (or wooden if you're feeling decadent) for an army of components is curiously satisfying.
I laughed so hard as Matt is laboriously organising/unpacking/punching Frosthaven. As he is doing so, he goes on to say "...and at the bottom of the box, you'll find a SECOND copy of Frosthaven." Oh the wonderful madness of our hobby! Tom's interstitial bonus content near the end of the video is great. "The Frosthaven insert was my Game of the Year (2022)". Nuff said, I'll be ordering the insert yesterday. This was almost 48 minutes of pure entertainment! Thank you, SU&SD, for all that you do.
I'd hold off on buying a third-party insert, actually. The one that comes with the game is arguably better than the Folded Space and LaserOx ones.
@@CWRules Understood. Thank you for the heads up. I always look into the details before I part with my entertainment/gaming monies.
@@ScovaNotia Shelfside did a pretty good overview of the inserts if you want more details.
@@CWRules With the caveat that I've yet to pull the trigger on doing so, so it's possible it's not going to work out so well, I've been considering getting the LaserOx Monster Box to store the monsters in in combination with the provided insert, rather than having to clear dozens of baggies of monsters each time I want to check something in the box (it's not quite so bad when it comes to actually setting up for play because at least then you're setting up for a few hours).
My friends who got the Folded Space insert, have actually ditched that one's monster organisation to use the baggies instead.
The one major downside with both the initial third-party inserts is that they store the map tiles in a separate box, which makes my scenario of taking the game elsewhere to play with people more fiddly.
@@CWRules mine fell apart after a few games. Cheap plastic. Hated the storage for the overlay tiles, impossible to find anything and the baggies for the monsters is horrible for managing. In my opinion the Laserox insert is a massive upgrade.
Tom randomly appearing to talk about JOTL was very welcome and appreciated honestly. In America I've seen it as low as $20, which is literally ten times cheaper than Frosthaven. Wild.
Shame he completely misses any sort of point. "Box big, I wish I hadn't sold small box, oh well". Okay great, thanks 😂
I'm super excited for Frost of the Lion.
Just can't commit to the full Frost but I have been loving JOTL. And I think producing a smaller stand alone version is a brilliant marketing strategy
JOTL is peak Havenverse experience. They should have just made a bunch of these types of stand alone expansions.
We are having a great time with Frosthaven, but from this point forward, I have no interest in the big boxes. If they make more JotL-type games? Man, sign me up. If I ever escape from Frosthaven, anyway.
Yeah, it almost seems wrong how cheap and how good that game is... I LOVE me some Gloomhaven (and played it for years) but JotL really boils it down to just the good stuff.
MATT’S BACK!! Welcome back, Matt! You were SO MISSED!
So much!
I know it's because he was dealing with moving and logistic nightmares, but I like to think that the reason we've been so long without a Matt-headlined review is because he was trapped by this monolith of a game and unable to do anything but prepare for however many months. Amazing work.
So, my Gloomhaven group moved away (the organizer anyway) and I sold my copy of Gloomhaven since it was mostly untouched (again, played my friend’s copy) and started a new group for Frosthaven with people who had no experience with Gloomhaven and not even necessarily a ton of gaming experience and while we’ve only played a few times (first level up next session!) so far it’s been pretty good and everyone seems to be enjoying it! Maybe that will change and it’ll get to be too complex but just thought I’d share that so far the new players are actually doing fine and enjoying it as well.
How's the campaign looking now?
@@ManFromTheFizz Still pretty good! We actually had to draft another person (also entirely unfamiliar with the “Haven” games) and he’s been enjoying it as well. Though I will say that it was funny because the first few games went way over time and had way more complicated/difficult interactions than anything we’d really run into before (indestructible zombies, endlessly spawning piranha pigs) and had to promise him it was not all like that. Even with that, though, he still seemed to really enjoy it and we’re still moving on with our campaign bit by bit!
The Insert Insert is pure genious! Also thank you for promoting Jaws of the Lion, it sits here, waiting to be played as it is the only one of these "havenly" games that I have any realistic chance of playing.
Thanks to both of you for these deep thoughts.
5:03 yeee gods, admitting the co-op "we've been playing for 2 hours and I'm not playing this scenario again. Fine let's cheat". Excellent bit of honesty 👌
Let me tell you, playing in a group of rules absolutists, knowing how to do a false shuffle is a blessing.
@@guildencrantz133 LOL
@@guildencrantz133 At the end of the day, some scenarios in Gloomhaven were just.. not.. great. Oozes spring to mind. You end up losing not because of anything you did, but just because of how the cards came up. And you may just not want to play a scenario for 12 hours, taking four swings at it until you manage it.
Also there's just some things which are fine to handwave. Didn't like your skill upgrade and it's barely been a scenario or two, sure, whatever, mulligan it for the other one. You /know/ you can get the treasure by grabbing it and failing and it's 100% guaranteed? Just say you got the stupid chest. Same shit for "you are lacking 1 gold for that 40 gold item" fuck it, do you want to set up an entire mission to kill one guy to pick up one coing to then retreat? 1 hour of stuff just to get 1 coin? Nah.
@The_Cosmo agreed. Funny enough playing with a mate, for the first two cards we added we missed the line about removing one. We looked at each other and just shrugged and carried on, we were playing it only when we had the time anyway and having fun. We were fine carrying on as we had done
What an amazing and absurdly entertaining review!
And o dear, the insert insert is just too good! Astoundingly fantastically written. You folks truly are great artists and I sincerely hope you are proud and get as much joy from making this as you give back to us. You absolute legends!
Yeah, this is for me. My group have played all of Gloomhaven, all of Forgotten Circles, we've played all of Jaws of the Lion, we've strung all of the community campaigns together into a 40 scenario campaign and we are currently working our way through the crimson scales, for which we have trail of ashes as well. We can't get enough
That is horrifying, and I envy you.
Is crimson scales a gloomhaven expansion?
@@mq1988 unofficial fan expansion with official support to be selled for +-0 winnings.
Same here, without the crimson scales as we're en EU. Will probably jump to FH as soon as we can, although we want to play some other games first.And JotL is great!
I'm not sure if thats horrifying or impressive
As someone who has played Gloomhaven, Forgotten Circles and now started Frosthaven, JOTL is absolutely my favourite of the lot. I hope they do make the JOTL style campaign books for Gloomhaven and Frosthaven that Isaac mentioned during the Frosthaven campaign
Could you explain why please?
@@arjunarabindranath I played Gloomhaven first and loved it, but even with the app to reduce the necessary components, expanding file for map tiles, craft trays for sorting the overlay tiles, and tuck boxes for the monsters, setup was still tedious. The worst part was the overlay tiles because they were double sided (they've fixed that in Frosthaven, but now they have a bunch of different ones that look very similar which is also annoying). Forgotten Circles is great because you can see how much fun was had with the level design. But it also has some levels with too many monsters which just makes the admin part of the game take aaaaages. Also it sometimes uses both sides of some overlay tiles so you have to be even more careful when setting up (and I think one or 2 of the maps are actually impossible to create). I suspect it was designed using a digital version.
With Jotl you open the book to the right page and get the monsters out and you're done. It also does a much better job of teaching the game gradually by having fewer, simplified cards for the first few scenarios and introducing rules gradually. As the person who normally has to read the rules and set up the games, it's just so much less effort. It turns out I appreciate the well crafted, streamlined experience more than I miss having all the extra character choice and monster variety.
I get that Frosthaven is a sequel and Isaac had different goals with it, but personally I was disappointed when it didn't take all of those massive improvements from JOTL.
@@1337pianoman Thanks! I really appreciate you taking the time to reply to a newcomer to this series.
Our group is in the category you mentioned at the end of people who have completely finished Gloomhaven et al and wanted more more more. We are LOVING it. It truly is just what we wanted. So while I disagree with a lot of your criticisms, that is only because you are so right that its only really meant to be for those that have finished the marathon and want to go out for a run the next day. It isnt for everyone, but if you play JOTL and Gloomhaven and want more, then it is for you!
Lovely review. And I'm pretty sure, "If you're not really sure, just do whatever it feels like make sense" actually is a line in the rulebook of Jaws of the Lion, at least in reference to how enemies should move
Yeah when Matt made that comment, I thought "wait, I thought that was a rule too somewhere...but it isn't??"
There kind of is! "If it is ever ambiguous where a monster will move because it has multiple equally viable options, the players decide which option to take."
@@francescotamburini5790 Yep, this is definitely the rule I was remembering
I see where Matt is coming from, and I know that this is definitely an extreme game, but I am in a weird position where I hard disagree with nearly every one of his complaints (although some where spot on). I played Gloomhaven with a group of friends and we finished it about 4 years ago, it took us playing once a weekend at my friend's place for about a year and a half. I loved it, and it became the best 200 bucks I ever spent on a game (up to that point). I kickstarted Frosthaven and waited through covid for my 41 pound box to arrive. I now play frosthaven with a different group of friends, they are both new to the haven games. From my perspective, the book was 100 times better than any rule book I ever read, gloomhaven took me 8 hours to read through and understand the first time, I was done the frosthaven book in 2 hours because of the "patch notes" style of writing. I think the mistake was teaching the rules from the book which it really isn't designed for, the easiest way to teach it is exactly what Matt did in the opening of the video, you play two cards, top of one and bottom of the other, everything else will makes sense after a single play through to any new player (and you can slowly teach them the other parts that they can do to take some of the admin off of your shoulders, like the elemental chart, help with set up, etc.)
I also planned to never clean up frosthaven until it was finished, I am blessed to have a spot that I can set it up and leave it set up for our next session, which was my biggest complaint of gloomhaven and why I don't break it out any more, its just too much to set up. Frosthaven has this issue too (there is no real way around it if you want to keep the same scale), but the organizers do help with that. Now when my friends come over to play, its like we are actually entering the city of Frosthaven, the upgrades feel real and all of the town developments so far have felt interesting. We aren't playing the game "to get through it" or "to unlock things as quickly as possible", we are just having an adventure stumbling through the various mechanics.
I have never used any of the "time saver" apps, to me the grandness of the admin lines up with the grandness of the game. If I wanted a simpler game I would play a simpler game, for me the grand design of the 41 pounds is what I paid for. Gloomhaven's map board was always extra fluff, adding nothing that couldn't be replaced by a simple list of numbers for which mission you could play and what achievements you have, but Frosthaven's map I find myself looking at more and more, considering how we should upgrade the town and appreciating the art.
The complexity of the starting classes is definitely higher in Frosthaven, and for those who don't know, Matt's character was ranked at the highest level of complexity according to the rulebook, so complaining that it is complex feels to me like yelling at an apple for being an apple. I also picked a very complex character and I found myself quickly (and surprisingly) overwhelmed at first (and for about 8 missions afterwards) in how to play them. I have figured them out for the most part now, but I can still see they will change as further levels are unlocked.
I haven't finished the game yet (we haven't even hit first winter), but I am in no rush to do so. This is a long-form game that feels the best when you take your time through it, and while I know not everyone has the time to commit to a game like this, I find it very enjoyable. If you want something you can fully teach/learn/play quickly, its not the game for you, but thats kind of the point of it. Just the size of the box should tell you that this game is a commitment.
No hate though, as I am sure many other people feel the same way Matt does, I may really love this game, but I also understand where he is coming from.
well-written, thank you
Petition for Matt/SUSD to release a full read through of both Gloomhaven and Frosthaven. I don't even have copies of those games - I just think it would be hilarious and fun :D
As long as they add a "skip to the point" button, I'd buy it.
@@trevorames889 YES 😂😂😂
On the part of Pudding, I must say it's been an absolute favorite of my group. We look forward each time we return to the town to building more stuff, crafting items, and brewing potions. For us it's byfar the best part of the game that's new from GH.
Yes! Pudding is delicious!
I think that is the thing, it reminds me a lot of a DnD campaign. It is absolutely amazing IF you a group of like-minded individuals that value the same aspects of a game that is A LOT OF THINGS at the same time. That will determine how enjoyable it is, I think.
Gods, you had me in tears at least five times during this video. Great work guys, I've been waiting breathlessly for this one for a while and as usual it's much more than I could have ever hoped!
I'm in it for the boardgame reviews, but really, I'm in it for the sublime comedy.
definitely. I actually know several persons (including me) who often do not agree with your opinion or interpretation, but all of us love your style of work and comedy.
This was a delight to watch because my wife and I have been playing it for several weeks now and I agree with virtually every point made. It also makes me feel a lot better about the way we have settled in to playing our copy. (95% knowingly wrong)
Can we get a standing ovation for this? Thanks Matt for this ramble, and thanks Tom for the brilliant "insert" insert
Gloom haven was the first game that I owned that made me ask, “why is this not just a computer game?” I loved all the stuff in it, but with all the upkeep it just crossed over the line. Thankfully the digital version exists and is awesome.
you know the situation is dire, when a dude writes a whole poem about how much he hates assembling the inserts.
Your incredibly subtle camera push ins are always classy and add alot to the production value of these videos
Next year, Board Game Geek needs to add a category to their awards for "Board game-related media" so this can win the prize. Truly a triumph.
"Despot of the Kallax" is amazing, but "InCell" sent me.
From now on, anytime I assemble something from Ikea, I'm just going to imagine it as a board game campaign.
Titanic. The Godfather. Lord of the Rings. Hawk the Slayer. Matt's Frosthaven review.
Critics are going wild for the box office smash of the summer.
I've been watching for many years, and this might be my favourite review on the channel. So thoughtful, thought-provoking and hilarious.
My group was extremely stoked and anxious to finally get this wonderful gem into our hands after having completed the GH campaign. About a dozen or so scenarios in and we're enjoying it, to be sure, but it's honestly been a bit of a mixed bag of pros and cons in comparison to GH. The scenarios are largely far more complex than any GH scenario, which isn't a negative in and of itself, but it does make many scenarios take much longer than the average GH scenario. This is exacerbated by the added complexity of many of the new character classes. The more robust outpost phase provides some interesting decisions, but building things up, which is limited by prosperity level, takes a while to start to really develop with any depth. It's honestly still not very intriguing after over a dozen scenarios. There are definitely some pros, but in the end it's just not the absolute mind blower we kind of expected.
I was super disappointed to discover that the unpacking instructions don't actually tell you to keep punching or take a break and call family or mock itself for being a beast of a box. I definitely pulled my box back out to check haha
The I think you should leave reference at 6:02 is GOLD
lol "the 'insert' insert" is so tim-rogers-y, love it
Insert, insert was high art on the back of discussing the vision of an artist and I just gotta say I really appreciate listening to these artists.
We divide games in strange and ad hoc ways: heaviness, complexity, time taken; and what I like about the through line of this, Root, and PoK for Shut Up Sit Down is that they maintain a division on the lines of how much communication one does with the people at the table. It is a border that needs recognising more in the hobby.
12:50 - what I did with my group of friend when we play gloomhaven back then was letting them join on the first scenario and I explained the rules bit by bit as the game goes, depending on what situation we're encountered with. True it does cost us with 3 hours of failed scenario run, but at least we're having fun in the end!
Hey, that was incredible. Thank you.
Right now i dont have the time or energy for the game, but the essay about it was healing to my soul.
Tom's segment at the end (The "Insert" insert) was one of the top segments of all SU&SD.
40:40 "Listener, Viewer, Cotent Consumer..." Such a good line! Why have I not heard it before?
I’m a fair bit through the frosthaven campaign, and in my opinion everything is improved. Everywhere there was imbalance and jank in base is touched up. I agree seeing upgrading the town as the main goal is a trap. Rather, it’s an improvement on the original game’s loot and prosperity system. In gloomhaven, loot was just coins, just used for your own character to buy items or enhancements. Now, it’s the people’s loot! Most of your loot will go towards building something for the group, which feels a lot better. When someone says, heck yea guys, I’ve got 5 metal and 5 wood, I’ll cover this upgrade all by myself they get a cheer! I agree it’s all ultimately fluff and the most important thing is the gameplay, but I think it smooths the edges. There were several unlockable characters in base gloomhaven that had deep rooted design flaws or just certain play styles that were to powerful. I think frosthaven has smoothed this over as well which much better designed characters. Remember the invisibility cloak and how you could stand in a doorway like an obstacle? Remember how rolling modifiers with advantage sucked? Remember how summons always killed themselves and you were sol? Frosthaven solves all these problems and more. It’s a great investment for anyone who enjoyed gloomhaven and wants a new, more refined sequel.
I suppose I am among the few who have, as you say, actually somehow managed to finish gloomhaven and wanted more. I think you have to play it a real long time for some of the flaws to start glaring at you so that you’re excited about the new improved system.
basically matt’s a filthy casual
@@aedrorwindrunner4172 yeah his review is salty af :D
I like the idea of investing in the town, and that giving you more of an incentive to want to be a hero and protect them. However, it does seem to have a lot of cards and fiddly bits when it could instead be tracked on a piece of paper just like your character.
I had some issues with the negativity of some of Matt's comments. Like Aedror Windrunner, I'm about 25 missions into Frosthaven and couldn't be more impressed with it. It's taken every thing good about Gloomhaven and trimmed out the bad.
@@aedrorwindrunner4172 Casual? Matt probably has a nice life outside of playing with cardboard.
I loved every part of that review! Great job! That’s why I keep coming back to the channel..
6:53 I will never let anyone carry my kingdom death box for the same reason
I'm looking forward to placing this and Gloomhaven on the same shelf and then watching as their fall to the floor inevitably destroys my entire house.
This is insanity! Don't you know that this much mass would create a dark hole?! God help us all...
This video got so much more philosophical than I could imagine when I first clicked a video review that is the length of a short film. I love seeing the raw emotion and torn feelings Matt had during his criticism of the systems.
My Frosthaven group is about a month and a half in. In that time we've built several resource building, got our ship, full cleared a quest line, and even got a free upgrade to our barracks and so far it's been great
I had about the exact opposite experience of Matt. I used apps, TTS, played the digital version of Gloomhaven all in order to make the game less fiddly. But when I got Frosthaven and played without any apps (except Foreteller narration which is a lot of fun), I realized how much fun I was missing in fiddling with actual components and shuffling decks a hundred times a game. I also think I might be a strange person who enjoys setting up games almost as much as much playing them. I have no difficulty in remembering to use the element slider trackers at the beginning of every round. I thought that was strange comment from Matt.
All in all, I love Frosthaven. I think it is better than Gloomhaven in almost every way. I love the little cardboard initiative trackers. The stories are interesting and characters are very unique. My wife and I are probably nearing 50 scenarios completed and are having a blast (playing two characters each). It rewards you for being smart and doesn't punish you too hard for being foolish. Definitely not for everyone. And I do agree that Gloomhaven is a better entry point for the series for newcomers.
I simply can't believe anyone thinks the loot deck being manual is anything but a spawn of hell. This is the only thing my group uses the app for, and I feel it is required.
We had fun making it too!
Tbf, I never played gloomhaven, but me and my wife adore Founders of Gloomhaven. If Founder's manual is anything to go off of, the manual for Frosthaven must be a nightmare to read through and easily overlook key details.
After over 250 hours of Haven across three games, with the same group; i can unequivocally say that the glue holding this game together is subtle cheating.
Many times my group would play a mission and quickly realize, "we have to restart and choose different cards with more movement/ CC/ Damage," and so we would. But on rare and more important occasions we'd be hours deep into a mission, within sniffing distance of victory, and start to lose based on luck. In these situations we'd turn to eachother, waggle our eyebrows, and say, "nah that enemy missed and you killed him, great job!" Really helped keep interest and momentum which is why i hate the digital version of gloomhaven.
That is an example of bad game design.
"Okay we're All set. All I have to do is not pull the miss card, and I already drew it twice this session."
Miss.
Oh, would you look at that,I had baric inspiration from my last dnd campaign and I never used it.
Absolutely phenomenal review Matt. This video flew by because it was so entertaining. You make amazing videos
The outro with the flaming Excel icon ... Chef's kiss!
Oh, I have been waiting for this one. Big thanks to Matt this absolute chonker of a video.
Chonkers 4 life xxx
Excellent analysis! Really enjoyed the take on styles of writing - narrated versus read out by a player. Super interesting to consider how sometimes polishing and balancing can make a smoother experience, but not necessarily more exciting. Definitely a hard one to balance during development.
OMG Matt and Tom. This was amazing. Thank you for this. The insert as the game of the year LOLOLOL, Matt in excellent form and doing what he does best. Bravo!
Congrats guys . I didn’t think I’d watch the whole 47mins but you kept my interest up despite not being amazingly into the first game. Top production!
Ozymandias reference at 44:05 gave me goosebumps
This review was really good, and also really on point. I'm pretty sure anybody that starts Frosthaven from no other Gloomhaven background will just melt. I mean just reading the 6 starting characters, their complexity level seems at best on par with the weirder characters of the 17-18 Gloomhaven ones.
My group (that is also a regular TTRPG group that happened to play Gloomhaven at some point) finished Gloomhaven, and Forgotten Circles... Frosthaven was litterally made for us.
This video is now my #1 video in whole youtube. This should be nominated for the best script!
You managed to say everything I think about the game, but didnt know I did until I watched this video. And a lot more that I am likely to be thinking when the game finally arrives.
Amazing job as always!!
ps. Im getting very anxious waiting my package.. : D
I've been sick the last couple of days and Matt and Tom just cheered me up! That part about cheating around the 5 minute mark had me howling... because of how relatable it was! Thank you! ❤
Wow, this is a long review! But welcome. As a person who's only played Gloomhaven about 1/3 of the way through I wrestled with backing the Frosthaven kickstarter. Very glad I was able to resist the urge - especially now that I've played through Jaws of the Lion with some friends and had an absolute blast, but realized my need for many, many more hours of the system was really not there.
I very much hope to get back to Gloomhaven at some point but with 2000 games or more released every year it seems almost foolish to spend another 100 hours (or more) on a game that's already given me a fantastic experience. Not criticizing anybody else's decision here, just glad for my own part that I resisted, especially having watched this video.
Thanks SUSD team for another great offering, proud to be a patreon supporter!
just have to say it: the whole video is superb in content as well as execution.
But - my god - that reanrangement of the moonlight-sonata to duett-form ist pure mastery. Thank you for this!
This just became my favorite RUclips review of anything ever. It's simply perfect.
Wow "The Despot of the Kallax" is such a wonderfully profound title, and very appropriate. Well done gentlemen
I really don't care about Gloom/Frosthaven, but its good to have you back Matt!
Boy I do love board games
What a brilliant review. Thank you!
Jaws really is the best and most reasonable of the Havens. Reasonablehaven.
It doesn't take a half hour to set up, it doesn't take a half hour to pool resources and upgrade your town at the end in the hopes that it will make something happen this time, and it's actually reasonable to carry the box to the bar or a friend's house.
Gloomhaven was a cool idea that got a bit carried away. Frosthaven was just more of everything without fixing anything, but Jaws of the Lion manages to fit in all of the good stuff without the hassle of far, far too much physical content.
My plan for playing Gloomhaven: 'Maybe I'll get to it when I'm retired'.
This vid genuinely made me laugh out loud multiple times. Amazing work, tremendous review.
Thanks for this! Matt's review of Gloomhaven got me started down the road of thinking about board game design and criticism, and I can say simply that this review did not disappoint. Also, it reminded me of your initial impressions podcast when Frosthaven was released, and I'm looking forward to Matt and Tom's further discussion.
I've played Gloomhaven once, and half of JotL (can't wait to get back to finish it), and I'm confident that I enjoy these reviews even more!
Late to the party and first time seeing the channel but this was a very great listen, good laugh and informative.
The "Insert" Insert is my favorite Lovecraftian short story of the year.
Brilliant video folks, thoroughly enjoyed it.
"we're just filming game nights and showing the ones where the Frosthavens fall through the table!"
Nailed it.
I love SU&SD reviews.
And I love Frosthaven, so far.
So I'm sitting here watching, thinking "Man, I really like this game, and Matt is pretty down on this game. I find that surprising".
But then, at the end, he calls out exactly why.
"I think this game is for one group of people... this is for people who have finished Gloomhaven, and they really just want more".
Bingo.
My play group and I have played through Gloomhaven in its entirety three times over. Which is f&*@'ing nuts, of course. But explains why we're so in to Frosthaven.
Our same group loves the Prophecy of Kings expansion to Twilight Imperium, which SU&SD was also down on for similar reasons. Bigger isn't always better.
Keep up the good work!
41:15 "The game that ejects others from your collection in Cuckoo-like fashion" is only second to "Despot of the Kallax" as the greatest line coined here (THE ENTIRE INTERNET, not just SUSD or RUclips), and probably the only time I've actually laughed at loud at a line in any podcast/review. A brilliant reference that the purist hardcore collectors will probably get. Genius. That these lines all come one on top of the other is incredible.
Thank you for making this kind of reviews. Thank you.
I love more of this, so this was made for me. Thank you, whoever was listening.
40:40 this is too relatable…I am 3 boxes in to my campaign 😂
Neither Gloomhaven nor Frosthaven as games have ever particularly interested me, but I absolutely love Matt‘s videos reviewing and discussing them.
Perhaps it is the huge boxes that are putting me off - they are weirdly intimidating…
But on second thoughts, Tom may have just tempted me to try Jaws of the Lion… though I do wish the Forgotten Circles expansion was a stand alone game as the box graphics look gorgeous.
Great review, especially for the insert! :)
Matt & Tom: That was brilliant. Thank you.
Sterling work. Thank you. We wanted this. We needed this.
Matt, what brand is your shirt/ where’d you get it?! I love the earth tones, very nice
Tom & Matt I was the one who unpacked our copy of gloomhaven I felt your insert pain en punch out trauma.
Tom is absolutely insane - the "insert insert" is must see tv
Haha the Insert insert is inspired. Great review guys.
This was hilarious and great. Sounds like Jaws of the Lion is the best option for my group.
The insert insert segment made me wonder whether I prefer watching your boardgame reviews to playing them
This reached Python levels of funny for me. Tom’s asides had me laughing out loud. Kudos for the great show.
Every now and then o er the years I have looked up Gloomhaven, and now Frosthaven, but I just cannot get past the art style.
Well did was a great review and then to end it witch such a piece of art... bravo.
‘The despot of the Kallax’ - bravo 👏
the best and only board game review channel I watch every video of, because this is just GOLD
Am I the only one who thought the guy on the bike in the window early in the video was a background gag I had to rewind 4 times till I realized it was just a guy on a bike
Bloody hell Matt, that was the most insightful "board game review" I've ever watched. Some genuinely fascinating and thought-provoking ideas! Certainly Frosthaven is everything I thought I wanted from a Gloomhaven sequel, but I'm not sure I was actually right about those things.
Matt, I thank you for a very, very entertaining and informative vid. All of them thumbs up!
Tom doing his best nerdwriter or every frame a painting was a delight. 41:58
I completely agree with everything in this review/overview/ramble.
"Who's been feeding you?" Man, I lol'd
I am definitely the target for this game, and this review also. Sure, I'm gonna get the Frost bigger box, but I really need this honest take on the game. I feel we all really wanted to hear that this game is greater and better and has no backfires… But… it is not the case. And it’s fine, I am still gonna get it, I am about to start my third Gloomhaven campaign, I finished it once, and I finished Jaws of the Lion. But I wanted to hear an honest review. I will enjoy it, but I know I'm never gonna get the feeling I had when I opened the good old Gloomy for the first time. Thank you, Matt, I love you are here again.
This review reminds me of my experience with the digital version of Gloomhaven. It's certainly a more convenient experience, but the part that always sticks out to me is having to play the rules as written, even when I'd really rather not. I'm a strong proponent of allowing players to completely respec their characters at basically no cost,, thereby encouraging players to experiment. The video game version forces you to commit to every card you select when levelling up. In practice, this just meant I looked up the best build online.
Thank you, as always, for your wonderful video - you guys are great! Love your guys work and always worth a watch! ❤
There were so many genuinely thought provoking moments; I particularly liked the comment around COVID impact on co-op vs. semi-co-op play; I think that's definitely something worth further investigation and discussion if you get the chance; what games have been developed during this period, is this an evidential trend?