Aeon Trespass: Odyssey - The TITANIC Review!
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- Опубликовано: 30 июл 2024
- Peter reviews Aeon Trespass: Odyssey - will this game change his mind about epic solo gaming?
You can find my rules & reference for AT:O here: www.orderofgamers.com/games/a...
00:00 Introduction
01:33 Rules Overview
21:54 My Personal Review
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Intro music by Peter Miller (www.scribbletronics.com). Used with permission. 
Игры
I really enjoyed the review, in an age where a lot of reviews tend to hype up games, this was a breath of fresh air in terms of a balanced opinion. I liked how you highlighted what was good and what you didn't enjoy, but had the awareness to point out who might enjoy it. I'm in the catergory of someone who is looking for a difficulty solo video game-y campaign experience and I got a good sense that this game will scratch that itch, in fact a lot of the parts you didn't enjoy I thought I would enjoy! I am glad that this review gives a really clear sense of what the game is so people can make an informed choice. Thank you for an honest review, looking forward to the second printing.
Thankyou, that's exactly what I was going for - and I'm very glad you still found it just right for you despite my personal likes and dislikes. Appreciate the feedback!
@@EsotericOrderGamers " it never became smooth and intuitive" and that is exactly what I'm no longer looking for.
I should add to this review that I've been told that boss fights change strongly through the three cycles of the game, so that's something I didn't get to see. 😃
Thanks for this. As someone looking at finding out what this game is about, this video was very useful.
And I have now finished watching it. Brilliant job.
🍺
Love your explanations in the video. Was so easy to follow along
Oh good! Thanks.
This is the best review I’ve seen/read for this game. Your comments, particularly the 'negative' ones, were conveyed with sincerity and respect. I appreciated your constructive criticism (with sound reasoning) while identifying areas for improvement. I would be surprised if Into The Unknown did not appreciate this review.
Thankyou, I appreciate that very much! I love all types of games, and find it easy to understand why lots of people love this one too. ITU contacted me to tell me they liked this review (even if they didn't fully agree with it of course!) and they linked to it in their 2nd printing Kickstarter, which I thought was pretty classy. They sent me a free copy of the game of course, but to be clear, I never charge publishers for reviews. 😃
Very useful and clear review, thank you !
Nice review, I recently went all in on the game and looking very forward to playing and getting my hands on it. I can definitely see some of the points you bring up and for me personally this is definitely right up my alley. I love kingdom death and the theme here, the minis, to the story just seems so amazing. I also enjoy brutal difficulty like this or Dark Souls, the sense of accomplishment and triumph when you finally do end up winning is so great.
You're probably going to love this game then - enjoy!
Really enjoyed your personal comments section of the review.
Thanks, I appreciate that.
Great review! Unlike so many reviewers, you manage to express your opinion on why it isn't' right for you, leaving room for the possibility that it might be right for others. I was able to watch this and determine that it would be right for me. Well done! Oh, and thanks for the rules summaries that have helped me with this game and also with The War of the Ring.
Nice. It would be silly to think my opinion should hold for everyone, we all have different tastes! Glad you like the summaries - if you find them really useful, considering donating or supporting - they take a lot of time and effort to make! 👍
25:30 same here. I did those crunchy games when I was like 20-30. Nowadays I find myself enjoying solo simple games (but not too simple). I appreciate elegance in solo over complicated setups. But with others, with the right group, I can see this being a hit.
And it certainly is! 😃
I'm 38, with three kids... but I still prefer a game like this that I can delve deep into and appreciate for a long time, rather than a simple game that I can finish in 20 minutes. It feels pointless in my mind, somehow to play those games, I don't really know why. I guess I want a game to remember what I did from session to session, to evolve over time the more I play it. So even if I have a hard time finding a lot of time, I still make an effort to make time for ATO, and only ATO, rather than my 50+ other games I could play instead. And while playing ATO, I don't want to play any of my other games anyway ;D
@@fundip533 If all you want is games with persistent game state, you're in for an expensive hobby! I share that preference but I'll gladly skip ato.
@@fundip533 That's great! Glad you're enjoying your gaming time in the most enjoyable way for you. That's the idea with games I guess!
I think if my entire board game collection spontaneously combusted (or if i had enough discipline to not purchase another game for like 2 years, which is way LESS likely), this would be the next game I buy. As it is though, I've got about 5 campaign games that need more attention and another 5 or more that 🤞 will be on their way in the next year or two.
I know what you mean. 🤣
I have watched several reveiws of the game. Yours is the first that feels honest.
That's kind of you to say so, thankyou Cole. I'm a long, long term gamer who love games with a passion, so while I tend towards the positive, I want to give you my personal thoughts while recognising that everyone has different tastes.
thanks for giving a different perspective than a lot of reviews.
i am very much looking forward to start my campaign, but I can foresee already that it might end up as a solo experience for me as well, because I can't see blocking me playing any other game for 80+ hours with my GF (which is essentialy my group ;) )
That is the problem!
Very articulate review, with interesting comments and assessments. Thanks for the detail and I now need to hold my breath before opening the box. The components you have painted and added look exceptional.
Thanks for your kind words, they're appreciated!
@@EsotericOrderGamers pleasure - from GotW #202 to #105!
@@alanhow2441 I'm sorry, I don't understand those links - what are they for?
@@EsotericOrderGamers Geek of the week on BGG. Sorry for the obscure references. I looked up your BGG profile.
@@alanhow2441 Ahhh, I see! That was a long time ago. 😆
Great review and highlights some of the trepidation I have at approaching my first play of it.
I have it in my paint queue (fairly near the top) so haven't actually played it yet. I enjoyed KDM a fair bit but didn't want to invest hundreds to get expansions and the consequent variation. I hoped this might provide that at a lower outlay.
I'm with you though in that I look to play more straightforward but strategically satisfying games these days and have not even looked at the other three cycles as I know that, even if I love it, I won't invest more time than the core set provides. In fairness even the idea of completing that is profoundly optimistic for me.
As an aside, I also bought the ad&d DM's guide when I was around 10 or 11, and read it thoroughly. Didn't stop me forgetting 80% of what I had learned when I played the first game of it however 😂
And the DMs Guide rules were such a mess in places! I never did work out some of the timing and movement 'rules'!
Great review Peter
Cheers!
I'm in the solo only group. Playing Oathsworn with others destroyed OS for me - and it was/is worst gaming experience I had in years. A bit better solo, but still a lot of very bad design choices there. ATO on the other hand - it's The Game. Can't write more here now but yes - that is 10/10 to me, ultimate board game experience.
See, that shows how different people can be - Oathsworne is still my favourite out of it, AOT, ISS Vanguard, but only because the combat part of the game feels like a more shared, interesting experience to me. I'm really glad you're enjoying AT:O so much!
Sad to hear that about OS as I backed it and it's coming later this year. What didn't you like about it? Did thise dislikes come from playing in a group or solo?
@@adam551982 on bgg under ratings take a look at 4s, my detailed opinion is there (Hegiel). But be warned - I don't want to yuck someones yum ;)
@@adam551982 on last battle of OS and absolutely love the game. Played w one other person two characters each...maybe choices are like skyrim, but still FELT like I was making real choices...and didn't peek to see if it mattered or not....great game.
Can relate with some of your frustrations with so many things to have to remember. Another thing that bothered my experience was getting certain hub adventures to their last tick and then losing access to completing them as the story continued. I found doom and progress tokens to be unneeded as you can simply keep them written down on your sheet. The nymphs also have an extremely seldom use.
A really useful accessory for the game is interlockable map tile holders. You can 3d print them for very cheap and they help to move or put the map away with relative ease.
Kitting up your titans to synergize with their mnemos traits and each other is fun. Made it near the end of the first cycle before needing to take a break for a while.
Good tips! I've since discovered I didn't give my titans the first ability of their Memnos cards, which made them a bit weaker - but also illustrates some of the fiddliness of the rules. I will go back and try again one day when I have time!
Good review, thanks! Very interesting to see your take on the game. How far did you get into the game, did you get to cycle 2?
I’m also middle aged and love this game, so hooked on it now. The bookkeeping was very annoying until on game day 7 I switched to the apps (official and scribe). Then all of that was gone, and play became much smoother!
For me the unexpected combats where fun; kept you on your toes and I enjoyed the battles a lot, even when they came at not the most convenient moment.
The crafting, for me was a thoughtful process of understanding how each item brought specific benefits, many of them advantageous to a specific primordial, and helped me ‘keep pace’ with the higher level primordials. This area of the game I enjoyed!
How much you played…? After 3-4 battles the combat became intuitive, natural, and playing solo each plays fast, 60-75 minutes, which is something I appreciate. Kratos adds so much strategy and planning of turns!
And the inverted combat paradigm - the escalation process - yes it takes 10 seconds but it’s the mechanism that makes battles here unique and so much better than games like KDM - the feeling of risks increasing, the stakes becoming higher, but also seeing how your character becomes more powerful is super fulfilling. This mechanic also makes the battles have a time limit. You know when the primordial comes to AI III you better kill him fast or he will end you!
The game gives you items to avoid most knockdowns quite early in the game - did you craft these…? With reflex actions. On cycle 1 I’ve only had 1 fight I lost, against Temenos. Many deaths of 1, 2 titans in a battle, but only 1 wipe.
Also felt battles with same monster changed significantly as their levels increased.
And fully agree, this is a subjective topic. For me game totally worked. Some weak areas for me was the fact map has interesting features - say, an enigmatic ruin, a beautiful city - but narrative, places you visit, are totally random and disconnected. Wish game had adventures connected to the map!
I didn't get to cycle II - didn't even finish cycle I in fact. I went back and forth to it for ages, but again, it's a time thing ... I played a lot of battles though, and it never became smooth and intuitive - and I play some pretty complex games! Also I think I had some poor luck on the card draws, because I had to face Temenos twice and the Pursuer once in the first 10 or so days, and it was a bit ridiculous. And I didn't seem to get nearly as many story events as I would have liked, perhaps just due to the path I chose on the tiles.
I'm really glad you enjoyed it, and I hope I was clear that I totally understand how this kind of thing will be very much enjoyed by a lot of people. One day I'll give it another shot! many thanks for your insights.
I dislike the labyrinth tiles, being dropped on your titans. Or around them, I hope that is not in cycle 2.
@@EsotericOrderGamers that's brutal to get those specific primordial early on. Pursuer and Temenos are particularly rough but even more so that early in the game.
I echo the sentiments of the last guy to comment but understand your experience. Withiut discord to ask questions, bgg to snag player aids and this being my main game I can see how it takes longer than where you were to get that intuitive feel. Simply acquired by repetition.
Your playwr aid was helpful too btw. I did tip ya for that. I hope you get to play more, but solo wise the battles only get more complex. I can totally see how that mental load is burdensome solo.
I'm trying to suckered my friends into playing but doubt it will happen.
@@adam551982 My general feeling is that if you aren't playing the game smoothly after about 10 hours, it may be the game's issue not yours! 🤣 I will play it more when I get the time. One of the problems with this kind of game is that it's a bit tough to play solo, and very difficult to rope in other players for such a commitment. Another reason I rated Oathsworn higher, as in that game characters not used by players are played in a simplified form that reduces the brain-busting.
Thanks for the tip, it's much appreciated - check out my other 400+ rules & references!
Excellent review Pete. While I am probably a bit more keen on it than you are you made all you comments fairly and accurately and with reference to the types of gamers this would appeal to, or not. I have to admit I got distracted towards the end as I tried to identify all the FFG games in your shelves - is that 'their' wall 😄?
Thankyou! It's just the way the camera is pointing really; the rest of the room is lined with similar shelves and there's just a lot of FFG ones in this section. Very good point though, I'll mix things up a bit next time! 😆
Good video. I pased on it due to the size which was evident during the kickstarter. The Hercules expansion is stand alone so if that looks smaller I may dive in this time.
I'll have a review of that up this week!
(Sorry, next week.)
Great review, you probably even excused your opinion a bit much, I don't think there's need for that! While I love it, I get why it can be a bit...much. Takes up two of my tables when it is set up...
Yes, I had to keep the map tiles on a separate board!
Great review! You have such a great humble approach. I can tell that you didn't play THAT far into the game though, especially from your comments on not having much choice in the combat system. As soon as you unlock support gear and more advanced weapons, you have a ton of options on each Titan turn. For example
- Shoud I forgo attacking completely, because there's an AI 1 card on top of the deck, this is the last Titan of the round, and I don't want to risk seeing an AI 2 or even 3 on top for the Primordial Round?
- Or, maybe I should use an action to un-exhaust my support gear, and position myself to have a higher probability of being the target of the next Primordial attack, and use my support gear to Reflex move out of the way and make the Primodial miss at least part of its attack?
- Or, maybe there's a BP2 or 3 on top of the deck, and it's very unlikely I'll be able to wound it? Well, then I'll attack with a Titan that has many hit dice and gives Kratos tokens for each hit, so that they can leave a large amount of tokens for the next Titan, even if I know they don't wound. And hopefully the next BP card will be a BP1.
- One Titan might have a Mnemos card that helps adjacent Titans (for example +1 to hit), so I have to plan out my turn order and positioning to make the most out of that ability.
- You might also have Despair tokens that means you must be adjacent to another Titan to ignore the penalties they impose. Again, turn order and positioning.
- You might have abilities that allow you to move after you Attack (Reposition), which also factors into your decision. Maybe you can run up, attack, and move out of the way to either allow another Titan to move there to attack, or position yourself to become/not become the target of the next Primordial Attack.
- You have seen the AI deck of the Primordial several times, so you know their behavior and which Titan is most likely to be the next Target. You also know if the Primordial is likely to do Knockdown or Knockback. So you position your Titans to avoid being run over by the Primordial, and make it more likely that your most tanky Titan will be targeted, or the one that has the least Danger, or at least positioned in such a way that if they are Knocked back, they won't be smashed into a Pillar.
- You have Argo Abilities that are independent of your Titans, and which can help you with stuff like removing Danger, increasing Rage, placing Kratos tokens, etc. These have limited charges and you will have to decide the best time to use them.
These are just a few examples, I could go on. In fact, it feels like you have too much choice after a while and it might become overwhelming!
I do appreciate all that amazing detail, though I will say in my defence that since I've been playing games for about 45 years I extrapolated the possibilities from the time I did spend with the game - with was a fairly good chunk of time over many weeks. My point is that these choices still weren't that interesting (again - to me) because they concentrate on the minutiae of details (and the attendant cognitive load) rather than a sense of flowing cinematic combat. But, as always, this comes down to the types of choices and behaviours individuals prefer when it comes to combat systems in games. But again, thanks for spelling out some of those deeper possibilities that I didn't go into. 😃
@@EsotericOrderGamers It's definitely "mathy" in that way and if you don't like those types of decisions that's fair. Some stuff is very cinematic though - my favorite gear are the "impetus breakers" that reduce Knockback - just two huge anchors that your titans undoubtedly smash into the ground while sliding backwards on their knees anime-style :D
Great review, first one that I can align with.
My view:
I don't think it is good solo game there is so much book keeping (I do believe most is overhead that adds minimal depth/fun as it is mostly based on luck not on conscious decisions) so many cards, rules etc. The only exception in my mind is if you have separate room where you can keep game on table for months and if printing 3d organizers, extra help sheets, optimizing table space (and you need huge table) is part of your hobby.
but...
From the other hand it is not good game for groups. Voyage phase is as you mentioned mostly book keeping and for non native English speakers without audio narration story is unfortunately less engaging (at least I am not so fluent with reading at loud especially that vocabulary is different from what I get used to at work).
My rating is 4/10 (so quite low) for first 20h of game.
If you are unlucky after ~20min of game setup ~20min of voyage phase ~10min of checking rules in between and ~5min of battle setup you may start with wounded titan (randomly from voyage phase) get knockout/back few times in a row (enemies starts the turn) only stand up in own turns, attack and do nothing (and in response being knocked out) and actually being eliminated without any impact. This game if you don't control at least two titans is simply not a fun. In the fight you just attack the primordial and usually you fail - no tactic involved. If there are great attacks this is not as in Gloomhaven because you prepared a combo, invest in one time card or something, in here great moments are because you pick random trauma card or were extra lucky with critical hit - all random based. This inverse paradigm in battle is as the whole game itself you need to invest time before it will get to fun part.
Now my rating is 6/10, in battles with more gear and some mnemos cards there is more decision to make and ways to mitigate primordial attacks (although still no fancy tactic). Games throw at you additional elements from time to time - because there is never enough new rules, exceptions and things to add - so game still is interrupted with searching for explanation what this new thing actually do. But it is better.
I can imagine that my rating will go up higher - we will see.
This is definitely not a game for everyone and require investment and dedication and while I understand that company must make a profit I would prefer that second printing would be in one year from now with revisited and simplified rules based on people feedback and experiences.
Thanks for your interesting perspective - and you know, I think I agree with you on that last sentence personally, but a lot of people would disagree as they absolutely love the game as it is - so you'd get just as many people annoyed about such changes! As always, it's 'horses for courses' as they say (or used to say!) 😆
Great review, I have the game and its a tough one to to make opinions as it does change the further in you get, in saying that your approach is pretty much on the money. As you craft gear and get more skills the Argonauts get more and more switches to counter effects from the primordials. The work of art reviews are from people who the games suits, I really enjoy it, but it definately not for everyone by a long shot, players should be very sure before getting into lifestyle games like this. I find the game very immersive and the further in I get the more interesting the battles are becoming. Thanks for the balanced review and those summary sheets!!
One day, when I have more time, I'll give it another shot. And ISS Vanguard too. Perhaps they'll be a time in my life when I have much more time for epic solo gaming!
This is a really well articulated review. A prime example of a constructive review, especially given the the recent Quackalope drama. Thank you! How far into the cycles did you play?
I got a considerable way into cycle I. Would have loved to do more, but it was on my table for many, many weeks and I had to move on to other things. I think my experience covers the gameplay very well, but of course I can't speak about the overall story.
@@EsotericOrderGamers awesome :) thanks for the reply and happy gaming!
@@thewarpandrealms9889 🥂
Thanks for the video! Wanted to ask, do you have plans to update your reference to include later game stuff? I haven't gotten my copy yet but I've heard there's addendum rules that get added as the campaign goes on.
No current plans to do so, but I may get around to it one day! (Probably when I personally get around to playing beyond Cycle I, to be honest ...) 🤣
I agree on the white box, its a let down vs how nice all other components are.
The strange thing is, they had a nice looking design in the campaign, then someone obviously decided at the last minute to be tricky...
@@EsotericOrderGamers Also the map design was changed, I thought the original was looking better. It looks ok still, I just really liked the original.
@@robertpapancsev8891 Oh was it? I'll have a look.
You mean the map tiles? Yeah, I like the old look more as well!
This channel was randomly recommended to me - and what a hidden gem it was for me :) Subscribed :)
How nice to hear - welcome! Be sure to check out the website. 😀
How long would you say a session of setup + exploration + battle would usually take. I just wanna get a rough idea of the time suck that this game can have and BGG only gives it a 90min playing time.
Several hours. And it would be far better to leave it set up if possible! Exploration is usually pretty quick, but a battle can take a couple of hours - but it depends on the number of players and a zillion other factors.
I thought the review was great and balanced. So is each cycle its own story? For some reason, I thought it was a progressing Story from one cycle to the next.
Oh, I think it is. Sorry, I didn't go into that aspect as I didn't have time to get past cycle 1.
Thanks
No worries!
As a huge fan of the Jason and the Argonauts film, I was interested in this game when it was first offered, at an incredible price. I looked into it and saw that it was definitely something that I would like. Unusually for me, common sense kicked in and I asked myself
Is this one of the only games that you own?
Taking the above answer into account, do you have enough gaming/painting time to devote to this behemoth of a game?
Do you own other massive campaign games, that are unpainted and/or in mid campaign?
Answer, repectively, no, no and yes. I didn't get it. Good review.
You sound very sensible! There's no point in buying a game if you don't have the time and resources to devote to it. (I'm a huge fan of that film too.)
@@EsotericOrderGamers as mentioned I am not always that disciplined?! I have plenty of unused expansions in my collection!
@@haxan6663 We'll all get around to playing them one day!
1:35 I thought my mans was beginning to rap lmao
I don't rap. 😆
That is rare. A negative review which is done well and respectful. I disagree with a lot of your points, or rather i come to a different conclusion.
For example, the kratos token and escalation of the boss decks. It works great and the game would lose a lot of its identity without them . (But to be sure similar to other new mechanism there is still room for improvement)
But all in all i like that review, xou make pretty clear what depends on your subjective stance and i'm sure some people checked the game out after your review.
I'm very happy and comfortable with you having different conclusions Joachim! For those who don't mind the fiddliness, they certainly introduce something different into the combat system.
Morebetter!
Ahh, what a difficult life you have ahead of you, my young padwan ... 🤣
Crowdfunded board games seem to be a collector's hobby and not a player's hobby. I can imagine many owners of a game like this playing it once and then keeping it in their "collection" where it is enjoyed. It's like collectibles toys. Sometimes the enjoyment comes from possessing the item and not actually playing with it. Why else are we seeing this trend of big, bigger, BIGGEST in every aspect? Why are terms like "streamlined" and "elegant" starting to mean less content? We NEED less content. I don't have $500 dollars or 500 hours to invest in this game. This could have been a MUCH better game with 1/3 of the components and rules, and a more streamlined experience that can be learned and played in a reasonable time. The game may be "good" at its core, but this is a classic case of the juice not being worth the squeeze. And the whole industry is starting to scream "cash grab" so it's turning me off a bit. Why do people commit to buying expansions before a game is released? You are bound to be disappointed.
I can't agree with you there, if only because there are gazillions of games being crowdfunded all the time and they cover a huge range of different types of games. And really, I don't really think the facts match your fears; the doom mongering about 'games are too big!' is highly exaggerated in my opinion. The number of epic games of this scope is vanishingly small compared to the number of 'normal' (whatever that means) games that are released every day. I like epic, overcomplicated games like this sometimes, and other times I like to play something straightforward like Dune Imperium or Inis. Why can't we have both types and everything in between? I think collectible figurines and toys are a waste of money, but I certainly don't care if people choose to spend their money on them and it gives them pleasure. The industry is simply giving us more choice than ever before, and as always, we can buy or not buy as we see fit. Yay! 🤣
So many KDM mechanics and ideas here ....
I will try this game for sure, but on the surface KDM is still superior.
@@andreikoenig5718 I wish I'd played KDM to compare that, but I couldn't get past the 'pinup girl' style miniatures - not my thing.
@The Esoteric Order of Gamers fwiw there are no pinup style minis in the game. There are female sculpts but they are pretty proportional. The pinups (big booties big boobies) are from Kingdom Death line (not Kingdom Death:Monster), and that are just for painters usually or collectors. But I do get it, the theme of KDM: tits and death can be polarizing for some groups of gamers. Cheers.
Oh well, I guess I saw a lot of them when I originally checked out the Kickstarter and it left a bad impression on me.
From the title of your review I was half expecting to find that you gave up half way through your first session and threw the game in a lake.
I can tell you're a glass half full kind of guy ... 🤣
Quite a shallow review, given the truly limited amount of time and depth that you played it.
As someone who's played tabletop games for 45 years, I think I can make a good personal judgement after the many hours I put into playing the game. I'd be quite interested in what crucial things you think I missed, if you'd like to enlighten me.
@@EsotericOrderGamers - as you yourself said in the video, you cannot commit to a lot of time to play any given game, so it’s apparent that the genre that you prefer is a quick setup, more accessible game which is fine, but correspondingly, if you’re going to review a much heavier, long time commitment game, you should at least look at the game through that prism instead, as you seem to have materially biased your review by your own specific preferences. In my opinion, the dynamic nature of the evolution of the bosses through time, the wonderful collaborative and strategic nature of combat, coupled with a deep and interesting story has truly struck a chord with me and many others as evidenced by the 9.3, yes 9.3 rating on BGG with a very large sample size, and seasoning as well, since it’s been in everyone’s hands for about a year now. For many people who loved KDM, this is the next level and iteration of this genre, but special and unique to itself with fresh mechanics.
@@Deltium5683 I am sorry I haven't been glowingly positive about what is obviously a favourite game of yours, but as I made extremely clear, I completely recognise and understand everything that AT:O has to offer, and that many people with the time to dedicate themselves to it will appreciate that. Perhaps you could reserve your contempt for reviewers who are purposely negative in order to attract viewers. Of course my review is biased by my specific preferences, and I make that absolutely and transparently clear. Furthermore, I have a lot of positive feedback from people - including from the actual publisher, who emailed me personally to thank me and linked to this review on their new Kickstarter campaign page - who have appreciated my honest approach and perspective. Don't take my opinion personally. There's no such thing as a consensus when it comes to games, and my opinion is just as valid as yours - even if I haven't sunk 300 hours into the game. In fact, expecting only those who have done so to review the game is simply unrealistic. Watch my review again and you'll see how much respect I extend to those people like yourself who will immerse themself in a game like this. However, extend the same respect to myself, who knows - both from long experience with thousands of games (including many very complex ones), and from a long and perfectly appropriate time spend playing this one - that this is not the game I am prepared to spend that much time with. Both opinions can happily co-exist.